Frame & Reference Podcast - 234: "How to Get to Heaven from Belfast" Cinematographer Nathalie Pitters

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

We've got two DPs from HTGTHFB, this week starting with the wonderful Nathalie Pitters, who shot episodes 4, 5, & 6!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 234 frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan and my guest, Natalie Pitters, DP of How to Get to Heaven from Belfast. Enjoy. I saw your big metal head. Yeah. Where are we at? What part of the spectrum are we on the whole thing? Yeah, but not black metal, not like Norwegian, you know, like... Yeah.

You know, my gateway drug was new metal When I was like 14 Yeah And then that You know, I think the music you listen to when you're a teenager Becomes the music you listen to forever So that's I mean, the thing is I don't actually keep up with the new albums

I just kind of listen to the old albums over and over again But yeah I probably the hardest I'd go is like Pantera Slipknot Uh to be honest anything like I'll hear

I'll hear anything I saw a great band the other day horror you heard of them really no I'll look them it's like instead of ours they're nines

so it's H0999 09 9909 um they were cool they were like kind of a bit more rap recently I've been listening to a lot of deaf tones

last two years I've seen them live about five times that's pretty I have I've got the I have the I have the White Pony

20th anniversary vinyl but the fact that the kids are finding deaf tones again is like that's because I that album White Pony and songs for the Deaf were probably two of the most important albums for me growing up

but yeah that's that snare sound with Chris Cunningham yeah you know I'm also seeing System of a Down this year So I had tickets to go see them in New York last year, but then couldn't end up going. So I'm seeing, they haven't been to the UK in years. And I was convinced when I missed the gig last year, I was like, this is it. I'm never seeing them live. They never tour.

And now I'm seeing them, Queens the Stone Age is supporting. So it's pretty good. I know, right? My friend just got tickets to the catacombs tour. They're coming around here. I think they're going to be in Joshua Tree. And my friend was like, oh, yeah, I got ticket. My friend got me tickets.

I was like, so casual. Why so casual? Yeah, I know. Fucking jerk. There was, um, there's this great British band. Um, they're like pop, punk rock kind of thing. Or they were. And they just like a couple days ago came out with this song.

They're called, um, Don Broko. They just came out with this like pretty heavy song with Nickelback. The guy, like the guy from Nickelback is singing. And it's, it's, you have to. to look it up. It is the most whiplashy song. But it's cool. It's been stuck in my head for like a week. I can't say Nickelback wherever on my playlist. Yeah. Same. Maybe obvious reason. Probably my favorite band. I don't know if you've heard of them. They're called

One Minute Silence. They're British, well, they're Irish British band. The lead singer is Irish. And they disbanded a really long time ago, but they had the best pits ever. Best, best, best pits. I used to see them live at this really small venue called the LA2 that's in Tottenham Court Road that's now been demolished and it's been replaced by like, I don't know, a bubble tea shop or something. It used to be the most incredible venue, so sweaty, so gross. And they would just have this incredible circle. Everyone was in the pit. Everyone was getting beaten up. It was really fun. There was a place like a venue like that down in Anaheim, which is like 45 minutes from here. and it was called

I'm blanking on all names across the board radio act radio radio radio something like that but it was basically the first show we went to my girlfriend got us tickets and we're like all right we'll go drive down there I had never heard of it apparently it's been a huge venue for 30 years same thing real small but it's like next to like a laundromat

in a strip mall and I was like there's no way this is going to be cool but the energy was there and you're like looking all the sign t-shirts up on the wall, same thing, like slip knot, you know, whoever, deftode, you're like, what? How have all these people been, you know? I used to live in Tokyo. That sounds so fucking cool. When it's there, you know it's going to be good. You know it's going to be good. I was in this random rock, but I used to live in Tokyo for a few years, and I was in this random rock bar in walk deaf tones, just hanging out at this bar and I was like, oh my God, it's a deaf tone. And I freaked out, and I could not believe it. And I didn't know they were in town. I didn't.

didn't know they were gigging. I got very upset. And sadly, they did not invite me to go to the gig for free, which further upset me. But it's fine. We move on. And now I've seen them about four times in the past six months. I'm seeing them again in August. I grew up playing drums. And so, like, Chris Cunningham's, like, the snare sound, but also just the way he was, everything was so, like, violent but crisp. You know, it wasn't just like, like, like the Joey Jordansson's blast beat kind of thing, which I, you know, I'm not, my feet aren't fast enough for that, honestly. I wish I could be like Joey, RIP.

I know. Have you heard, I mean, new guy, the Brazilian guy from Sepulthura? Oh, is he joined? Mm-hmm. And, oh, shit. It's, he beats those drums up like they owe him money. Well, because he has to match what Joey did, which is. It's not.

Controversial opinion, it's way better. But can he do it spinning upside down? I don't know. They probably don't do that. They, they, uh, were too old for that now. Yeah, they did a pop-up show in, um, uh, Joshua Tree, which was random because like, yeah.

But what was, what was up, what was going on in Tokyo? Oh, I read you were like a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Super random and weird. I was running away from the fear of not knowing how to become a cinematographer, which I desperately wanted to do. Didn't know anyone in the industry.

I'd always wanted to travel to Tokyo, but I don't know if you've been, but it's crazy expensive. But I wanted to go for like, yeah, you should. I wanted to go, you know, not for like, I didn't want to go for a week and do like Tokyo, Kyoto and then go home. I wanted to go for like five weeks, do the whole thing. But I was like 23 or something, 22. who had no money and from a really, really, really, really poor family. So there was no backup.

There was no like, here's your 21st birthday money. Like my 21st birthday money, I think, was like 50 pounds. It was, you know, it wasn't nothing life changing. So I've had to like work everything I've had to work like for myself. And I just couldn't find any way to, even if I got that money, it would have been like thousands of pounds. I wouldn't have been able to excuse spending it on like a one-month trip. So I just sort of put it as a pipe dream of like,

maybe when I retire, maybe then I can afford to go. And then I happened to meet someone at a film festival that I was volunteering at as part of my, I'm going to try and meet someone in the industry phase. And she had just come back from teaching there. And she said, oh yeah, during the day I was doing Japanese classes. and then in the afternoon and evenings I teach English and I was like, oh, but don't you need the TEPL

qualification certificate thing? She said, no, not in Japan. Other countries you do. My boyfriend at the time's sister had done a TEPL degree at uni and so she'd been teaching in Thailand on all these places and I was very envious of her travels. And she was like, no, no, no,

not for Japan. In Japan you just have to have a degree, have completed an undergraduate degree and the degree can be in any subject and you have to be a native English speaker. And I thought, oh, well, I just finished my degree. And I am a native English speaker. So wouldn't it be funny if I applied for a job? And then I applied for a job and got an interview.

And I was like, I'll go to the interview just for a laugh. There's no way they're actually employing, like, you know, meeting Joe, nobody. And then I went to the interview and sat next to me with someone who had studied Japanese at university, was fluent and had spent like years out there just on his own free time. And then to the left of me was a guy who had been an English teacher but his school had gone bankrupt.

And then there was me. So I was like, well, out of the three of us, I don't think I'm getting anywhere. And then they employed all three of us. So then I went out to Tokyo and I was like, oh shit, I've actually got to go. So I went and I was like, I'll just go for a year. I'll just go for a year.

And then it was like, maybe just one more year, just one more year, two more year. and it was just one more year, just one year, for four years. So then I finally got, I had a family, a personal reason to come back. My mum got sick, so I had to come back and look after her. Also wanted to come back and look after her. By the time I got back, she was actually fully better. Her cancer was in remission, everything was good.

So then I thought, well, how can I make, you know, I've left a life I really loved over there. How can I make a life here that I don't really want to be here right now? here because of circumstance. How can I make this work for me outside of just, you know, helping my mom? And then I thought, okay, you know what? Just apply to that bloody film school that you've been hanging on to the brochure for like six years. Just fucking apply. So I applied and got in and then the rest was history and that was in 2014. So yeah. That feels relatively recent. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, 12 years ago. So yeah, it wasn't as long as I was quite older than my classmate.

So I started that film school when I was 28 and then everyone had just come out of university. So they were like 23, 24. And a lot of them were like, you know, walking IMDB types that knew everything about every film and every director. And I was like, oh shit, like, what am I doing here? Was this a mistake? But I was just always really interested in the art of cinematography. And like from when I found out that it was even a word, I was like, oh, shit, this is cool. So, yeah, it just seemed to sort of fit everything that I wanted to investigate, really.

When you were looking into being, so when I was younger and I was like, I want to make movies, it took going to college to kind of what you're saying, like learn that they're, because I knew I wasn't going to be a director. There's two arcs. And I certainly couldn't write. And then I was like, well, I like cameras. I was a photographer on the side. And so I was like, I'll be a cinematographer and I'll figure that out. When you were looking that up, did you have the same arc of like start?

You aim high. You're like, oh, the director makes everything and then work your way down to that or did that kind of jump out at you at your like older age? Because I started part of me kind of wishes I went to college as an older student. So I meet, I prior to learning the word cinematography, I didn't know. that that was a job. Even though I'd watch films, I watched tons of films, but I never watched the credits, you know? Like, I never was like, oh, what is, what is an editor?

Like, you know, like, I never really delved into it for some reason. I just thought that was a really good film. I didn't know why I thought it was a good film. I just, I liked the way it looked, but I didn't really, you know, I didn't analyze it like, oh, that shot was cool. It was never that that shot was cool. It was that I like the look of that film, and I like the way this film plays out story.

like script wise or whatever. And yeah, I thought it was the director, was the filmmaker, and then all the other people were just like hired hands. Like I thought... Extras.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I just didn't know. I just don't know why. I'd never thought... No one does. That's not a rare... Yeah. But I would...

I start, you know, my gateway drug before, before all of that was photography. Um, you know, I was like, oh, I really liked photojournalism a lot, a lot, a lot. And I wanted to do that.

But I didn't have that kind of discipline to just wake up early and go out and do that thing on your own. You know, like, I'm going to go and stand in the rain and find some interesting, I don't know, architecture or like interesting looking people or whatever. I just didn't have that get up and go to me. Like I need something and someone to bounce off of like a script or another creative person or a location that gives me an idea for something. something. So I struggled a bit with that. Like my photos didn't look like they looked in my head when I got them developed. And they didn't look like the ones in National Geographic. So I was absolutely gutted. And I was like, why is that? It's because I was just taking shit pictures. Like I just didn't really know what I was doing. I was just sort of going, oh, cool. Yeah,

I'm so cool with my film SLR. And then, yeah, just, I don't know. Like I did a bit of gig photography. Like, I started taking a little camera to like some metal gigs and stuff and taking some really cool picture of that. And then I somehow ended up as a nightclub promoter in like in central London like mini skirt and heels sort of parading around Soho going, hey guys, come to our club. And then I was taking photos for other nightclub nights and I was doing the like slow shutter like lighting drag. Yep. Yeah. We've had the same career. We've all done it.

Including the skirt. Exactly. I can imagine. So I feel like I was sort of deeply basic for a very long time. But, you know, sometimes you just have to be basic just to get the ball rolling, I guess. But also that, I'm just laughing because I did the exact same fucking thing. All of those, like, club photos were basic in technique, sure, but I think the fact that you could share them so readily. on Facebook and use those as like, A, promotional tools for the bar, but B is like a portfolio, especially got all these hot people in front of you, you know, they look great, the lighting looks interesting. I think that was a pivotal time for folks like us who had a camera and, you know, the means, because most people didn't, like even in, you know, 2008 to 2012, most people didn't have DSLRs,

really. They had point shoes. Yeah, and, you'd go, you know, when Facebook and MySpace and everything was around, You had your small, tiny baby camera that just had a very, like, obnoxious flash on it. And then people would share an album with, like, 622 photos from that night. They were all shit. All of them were shit. We were not curators.

We were not. But I really, I just enjoyed taking the pictures. Like, you know, I just went on eBay with my, I took 100 pounds out of my student loan money for university and just bought, like, a big bag. of expired film and I did like a dark room course. I just wanted to do something visual and like I was studying history of art and like going to paintings and looking at paintings and going to museums and galleries and things like that. And so I just liked looking at images and and then I got a bit, then I was feeling disconcerted

by the fact that I liked looking at images so much. But then when I'd make those images, they weren't as pleasing to look at and I got, you know, I got really upset and I bought a Canon 7D when I was in Tokyo because you know, you can imagine Tokyo is a very, very beautiful, visual, gorgeous place. And I was deciding between the 5D Mark 2, yeah, 5D Mark 2 or the 7D. And I went with the 7D because, you know, all these things online were saying, oh, it's much better for video, yet X-Y-ed it. So I bought it for video, four video, barely took a single video.

Like my boyfriend at the time was like, hey, just make a stupid video. I don't know. I'll come out of the bathroom and I'll pretend to fall it or something. And I was like, I can't do it. It looks shit. And if it looks shit, then I'll never be a DP. So I was just resigned to me being like, even though it's literally as me in a flight. I didn't have you ever been inside Tokyo apartment or seen the inside of it. Tiny. Like, you know, I think it was like four by four meters.

That was my entire flat. Like, that was it. What's that in feet? 10 feet. I was just times three. 12 feet. something like that. Tiny.

Basically, you can get like a double bed and it's very small. It's the size of this room actually. This is 12 by 12. Okay, it's smaller than your room. Your room looks bigger. So I was just in this tiny, tiny apartment with like two desk lamps, wondering why my, you know, shitty film doesn't look like something that I've, you know, Christopher Nolan just made.

And just feeling very like, oh, well, I guess that's a sign from the universe then. Like, it's never going to happen. But going to film school, was interesting because when I first got to film school, and they started to teach us very, very basic techniques. So you know, you went to film school, right? Yeah, so it was like, you know, we'd have like classic three-point lighting. We'd have very, you know, like 800-watt redheads or something, like nothing huge and fashy.

That low, total light, that thing that would burn up anything you put within five feet of it, yeah. 100%. So we'd have like those and then like Kino flows that we had to keep changing the tubes out. And we'd be like, ooh, we're going to salt and pepper. than with like tungsten and daylight. We're so cool. Oh, yeah. Bringing back all your trauma.

We had the same wife. Yeah. So like once I started understanding about lighting, that's the thing that had been missing. I mean, I was definitely missing composition for sure. But lighting made me want to do better composition. And so now we had a set build of a room. And I could light through it.

And it was before I knew about like, you know, diverging beams and the, fact that that looks like really fake lighting, whatever. But I remember the first time we turned on a big light outside a set window and those streaks across the floor. And I was like, holy shit, this is what it is. You have to put lights in. Okay.

And I didn't realize, like, all this equipment was involved. And even like an old friend of mine, I showed her my graduation film once. And she said, God, it's so lucky that you had a sunny day that day that you filmed. And I was like, me. No, I was the sunny day. What do you mean? that's my entire job is making it a sunny day. And she was like, oh, shit.

So I think it's just something that people don't know. Like, you know, and even if you're interested in, you know, films and things, you don't really know these things. So going to film school then meant that when I was watching films, I was like, wonder how they lit that? Like, do they, do you think they had like a, was, do you think it's an HMI? What have they got, what are they doing there? Like, why have they?

And then it was like, oh, why is the camera moving? Why is it not moving? Why is it doing all this? And then all the questions came. And so then it started becoming quite difficult to watch films because then it was like homework. But at first the homework was really, really fun because I was learning from it. And I felt like, you know, when you learn a new language and it's like, I don't know, you learn the Spanish for candle or something. And then you like walk past someone and they're talking about candles and you're like, I know what they're talking about.

For me, it was just all ordering drinks at bars. Exactly. In Spanish. Yeah. All of a sudden I felt like I was. in on the secret, like the secret is you need to put a big light really far away and then you get this like black bit of material that cuts off some of the light and then and suddenly I was all in on the secret and that made me feel inspired to continue and felt like I could continue

because it's just something you have to learn like this morning I had my very first driving lesson ever and it went really well and I only stalled once and it's a little. And it's a little bit. And it's been this whole thing that I've been building up for like 20 something years, like that I could have been driving 23 years since I could have learned to drive, haven't. And I've just been building up in my head as this big, big scary thing that I can't do. I can't possibly do it. Other people can do it. It's not for me. And then I did it and it was fine. Like I'm obviously still a bit shit, but I'm going to get better. But like, I think going to film school for me helped me realize that I could fail and that I could fail, like, safely without someone breathing down my neck.

And then I could learn from that failure. And no one's going to ridicule me if I use a hard light instead of a soft light for this close-up. Like, I'll just see the rushes and think, ha, that doesn't look as good as it could do. What can I do to make that look better? And then the teacher's like, well, you could try softening the light. You could try dimming the light. And I'm, oh, yeah, that's very good points. You know, so things like that.

And I then got really interested in lighting, sparked a bunch, gaffed a little bit. yeah, I spend more time in lighting than the camera for sure. Yeah, well, camera gets boring so quickly. It does. I like, it's like there's three. There's three cameras. It's three cameras.

I really liked loading film when I was a student. That was really fun. Yeah. Well, it's all the hands-on nature of it, right? Like, I feel like that is the one thing that digital is taken from us is like the, I love the safety of it. But it is just like, like when people go, is this hard? like, you know, a director or whatever.

Is this going to be hard? I'm like, no. And I've learned to stop doing that. Like, yes, it's going to be very hard. Because otherwise you get five seconds to do it. And then you're like, no, I need more time. But it is just kind of like, oop, tripod. It's on.

Exactly. Like, you know, the ARIA Alexa 35 is, I haven't even put a light on. It looks great. Yeah. Stolen my job. I really love loading film. Yeah. It smells like fish bait to me.

Have you ever, have you ever fished? It smells like power bait. There's a very specific bait called power bait. And that's what film smells like. That sounds gross. I just used to really love the fact that people would be like, okay, we're going to go for another take. And I'd be like, hold on a minute. You've only got two minutes left on this rule. But I have another mag that's loaded that has 10 minutes on it. Would you like that one? And said, they're like, yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, let's do that. And I felt like I was like in charge. I was like the film Maven. Like no one comes into my little closet. It's my little closet. You guys can all piss off. Yeah, it was nice. Small feeling of control as a loader. Well, it's a pretty big control. But I did want to go back real quick to, you were talking about studying art history. At what point, because I'm interested in the idea that you were looking at all,

like I was just at the Louvre when I was in Paris. And there's a, you know, obviously it is what it is. There's plenty of amazing paintings in there where you're like, wow, the command of lighting. And I thought they would cheat more. I thought in a lot of these paintings you would see shadows that don't mess, you know, lights that, but it's painting. You know, light can come from anywhere in a painting. And they didn't.

It's all very like, for the most part, you know, single. So looking at those studying art history and looking at those paintings, why do you think it didn't click with you where to put light in your photo or film work? I don't know. I wish I knew. I knew that like fashion photography had lighting. right? I knew that for sure and I knew that film had lighting but I didn't really know that meant. It was the

equipment that fucked you up. That there was equipment. And it was also like I knew that they used lights in filmmaking but I thought that was just to raise the ambient you know what I mean? I thought it was like oh we turn the house lights on and so then I tried to make my film turn the house lights on

looks like shit. So I was like wait a minute why does this look like shit? Oh because it's spilling all over the place because there's no control there's no shape, there's no direction, there's no contrast, there's no nothing in here. If that was a waveform, that would just be flat as a pancake. It was awful. So I didn't realize that the lights were for effect,

unless it was like in The Exorcist where there's like some strong backlight and smoke, you know, but that was like very theatrical. And so, and like, you know, your average film, like say the graduate, right? Average as in it very, very good, but it's not a super theatrical looking film. I just thought they turned the house lights on. I thought that, you know, I knew that film,

I knew a bit about aperture and film speeds and things. So I knew that film speeds were slow in those days. And so I thought that what they did was they just had a powerful light that they just shone at the ceiling or came through the windows, just to give more ambient. But I didn't realize, you know, even things like rain. I didn't realize that rain was deliberate. Like, not until I got into it.

I was like, oh, well, it's lucky they had a rainy day that day. It's lucky there was a storm. And, you know, they were all filming in this perfectly timed storm. The times with the boyfriend leaving and flying to another country and the crying scene. You know, like, I just didn't realize. Then once I realized I felt like such an idiot. I was like, how did I not know? You know what's funny is in the Matrix, you know,

when Neo's waiting for them to pick them up at the beginning in the car, and there's like that big sheeting rain. In my head, I was like, I know that's fake rain. But then in Fight Club, when they're driving around and they're about to crash the car, I, for whatever reason, thought that was like a process car. Yeah. And it's literally like two guys are two by fours and a hose. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. It's crazy what you can do. Even like the last two weeks, I've been working pretty much back to back, which is why I'm, was available for you all. your schedule change because I am not leaving the house today. I've been bed rotting all day. It's been delightful. But like I, yesterday the final shot we did on this short film,

I had a moment of like resignation like, oh well the wall is white behind her. So there's nothing I can do. And then I was like, wait a minute. This is a film. I could do whatever I want. And so we had this tapestry and I was like, let's just bring the tapestry close to her and just pretend it's on the wall. And like it just, it looks naturally. It looks like she's standing in front of a tapestry rather than standing in front of an incredibly boring white wall.

And so it's like, every now and again, I just forget that I can do anything. Yeah, do whatever you want. But that's what this show, the altitude to get to him from Belfast was great, because I could just kind of do whatever I wanted in a way. Like, we just put random colors in and it was fun. I wanted to ask about that because I remember, remember, I was doing research and you, you had talked about the like what how and why stages of your career you know uh you know what am i supposed to do how am i supposed to do it why am i doing it you know which i've never heard anyone be that succinct with it so i'm keeping it but um you know with a show like this where there

is so much like visual fun going on for the most part a how do you keep it from being muddy you know you like you said you can't just turn on all the lights and especially all these colored lights, you know, say Alexa 35 and probably. Yeah. Yeah. So good, you know, you've got good color separation on the sensor. But on top of that, did you find yourself kind of reverting back to the how or were we still in Y mode or was this a new fourth gear? It was a weird new fourth gear because there wasn't a Y as such because the story was so fun and strange and tonally going up and down everywhere. Like my, my, my, three episodes.

We have like a road movie caper. We have slapstick comedy. We have like suspense. We have action. We have all these things. All these genres that require very different types of shooting. And we're not shooting in that way. So for example, like the car exploding.

We didn't shoot that like an action movie. And the soundtrack is an action movie soundtrack. It's like Dolly Parton or something. So like we were sort of genre bending a little bit. And so to keep it from being muddy, we genre bended with the lights also. So sometimes like when they're in Dublin Cathedral, I can tell you right now, Dublin Cathedral's priest room, what's it called? Sacristy, whatever. There is no purple light there in real life. Sure.

I put that there because we thought, why not? Like, it's just fun. It's whenever we could inject some cool colored light, we did. But I also, I think Ashley and Dan, the other 2D piece, feel the same way that you don't want it everywhere all the time because then you don't read it. It kind of the audience, the eyes get either bored by it or used to it or, you know, it just becomes like background noise. It's like, oh, it becomes black and white almost. Yeah, like the frame is red, pad, blue and whatever, all the time. Like, no, sometimes you want to lean into the naturalism and then throw a light in there for comedy.

Or like, like, we were in the airplane set. Like, you know, I threw a warm light in because when you fly, you're above the clouds, it's usually like a warm, hard light. And then I wanted that to contrast because they were flying in Portugal to Portugal that I wanted to then contrast it with flying back to Dublin where it's like grey, just plain white outside. So I wanted that contrast and then like have a bit of sort of like, I didn't put like, I didn't think I put blue blue, but I put like a very cool, cool, cool white that was reading a little bit blue

rather than like primary blue. So sometimes I'd lean into like naturalism and like in episode four, we have all these explosions and then sort of it ends with like this big, big yacht explosion. And so I wanted. wanted a lot of fire in fire color. I wanted fire elements. I wanted actual fires. When we scouted the restaurant in Malta where they're sort of for Portugal, where they're all sat around with a little box thing. When we first scouted that, I asked the production designer, do you think we could get like a sort of Benihana like flame kind of go like behind them?

because I wanted to just like show fire everywhere, but we know for safety we couldn't unfortunately. But yeah, when we're in Margot's house, we wanted lots of elements like loads of rain coming down. It's very blue and cold outside. And inside there was this like warm room, but it's not inviting warm. It's like oppressive like you're in hell with that warpy lens.

And then there's the fire and they're sat by the fire. So we wanted to play with colour, but not always like, you know, crazy. clown color. It was it was sort of stylized like a neo-noir and I just really enjoyed getting the chance to not have to always be motivated with it. Like most of the time when I use colored lighting, it's like, oh, we're in a nightclub and there's, you know, it's like colored park hands or something or like there's some neon sign behind them. So I carry that with like a light mat spectrum or whatever just to kind of boost that pink or whatever on their face. But this time it was

like, no, you know what? We're going to put green on the ceiling and the orange on the ground. And we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And in the next scene, we're going to go completely natural. And then the scene after that, we're going to go wild again. Did you, like, restrict yourself to a number of colors per? Or was it just whatever you felt? No. And I think it was, it was kind of whatever the script needed. Like, so scenes where we have, for example, adult Greta, you know, she's trying to escape. this life and it's all quite serious and quite sad and she's left her daughter and, you know, she's scared and all this stuff.

Like it didn't feel appropriate to have crazy colour with her because it didn't feel, it felt like it would take away from the performance a little bit. I feel like we tended to instinctually go towards, like there was no rule where it's like, if it's a funny scene, you must use blue or anything like that. Like there was no rule book. But I think instinctually we all veered towards. If it's something eerie or if it's something like black comedy funny, you can put colour in. And in this world, it's fine.

Like in this world, it's fine if you've got, like, in block one you see outside the hotel, there's like a phone booth and it's just green. And then there's a goat there. Like, it's like, why not, right? So in this world, if you as the DP and director feel that this room is, bright red, it can be bright red. It doesn't have to be, but it can be. And so sometimes we'd be like, do you know what, like the coverage is going to be a bit more conventional here? Should we just throw in like some, a wild card with the lighting? And it was fun just, you know, sometimes the script goes up, I go up, the script goes down, I go down, but sometimes the script goes down,

I go up and vice versa. So it was a really fun, tonal roller coaster, really. Like there was no, like there was such a strong visual language that was almost no visual language because we had so many visual languages to think about. And you need to make it feel like it's the same show, right? So I didn't want every single scene to have a war. I didn't want every single scene to have a bright, bright colored lighting that felt totally incongruous, like in a day exterior, it would have been really weird.

But then whenever we couldn't go weird with the lighting, yeah, we'd go a bit weird with a camera or try, do we just try something, even like with the sound design, like they'd try something weird. I got to give you credit. I was, I know Dan Cain's over at Atlas, and so I was able to get my hands on that 21-millimeter anamorphic like when they I think I probably was like one of the first five people to use it and we had like a whole set we were shooting the spec commercial for fun and then and we were in a bathroom and I was like you know what give me that 21 and then they put it and I was like we have to black out the entire bathroom there's no it's everything it sees everything yeah yeah well done using that at all

You know, we, so George and I, because we were Block 2, you know, there's always, there's always, always, always, always, every show, always a little bit of nervousness from the grownups. Is Block 2 going to look like Block 1? Is it going to feel like Block 1? Have we fucked up by hiring a different team? Should we just keep the same team on? When they'll do every other? Yeah, so it's like, you know, luckily this one, it was like, 1, 2, 3, then 4, 5, 6, then 7 and 8. but like yeah like if they're intermingling yeah it can be really really jarring if if the blocks look totally different and so george and i really wanted to both reassure the team that we were on board with the like wildness of the look

and also like ourselves get on board you know immerse ourselves immediately into the world of the weird so our very very very first um shot on our very very first day of shooting was in um episode six, I think. Liam's in the hospital. Liam wakes up and he's like, oh, like the nurse says, oh, yeah, you were really lucky. And so the first shot we did was the one that comes off the like curtains and sort of finds its way into the room. And we wanted to, we just put the 21 on. We were like, fuck it, let's go, let's do this. I had no way of lighting that. We just had some tectiles in the ceiling, but I couldn't light it from outside. So I was like, let's just, let's just do it. Let's just go mad.

And every now and again, we just look at each other, be like, should put the 21 on? And then I'd immediately regret that decision. I need some privacy. Let's get that on so everyone leaves. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'd really stitch myself up with that lens a few times. I was like, lit the room beautifully.

And then it was like, oh, should we go wider? And then I was like, oh, no, what have I done? You know, it was cool. It is cool. It's a cool looking. I like also the, like, kind of diamond. Boka some of those lenses can have. It's kind of neat.

I know that some people really favor naturalism in shooting style and they find, you know, flares distracting or they find warpy lenses distracting and they find chromatic aberration distracting and things like that. But I, you know, if you're watching, if the whole show was only shot on the 21, I think, you know, your eyes would bulge out. But I think it's fun. That show, Tonally, is.

so fun and so strange and so cool that why not put a fun weird cool lens on it's like you know that lens allows you to see a scene like your eyes could never ever see it and i feel like lisa's script does the same allows you an insight into people's behavior and motivations that you're like i've never seen a person behave so awfully but fuck it let's do it you know like yeah it's like not real like it's like heightened naturalism you know like very gothic and fun cool yeah well and it also i think that lens well sometimes this will happen to me where i have three three questions and then now i have to try to pick one um because uh you know just just the idea of of making an image look interesting sometimes is difficult because you're like we obviously we all want it to look more

like celluloid right because that just looks better to most of us Not all the time, but, but there is like using really jacked up animorphs. Like I have a set of anamorphics, but they're very clean. And I've actually come around on them. I used to be like, ah, they're fine. And now that I've used them on a few documentaries, I'm like, honestly, if, if these were any more, you know, if these were cowas or something, it would be too obvious. It would be like the second you saw a second documentary from me and they were looked like that. You'd be like, oh, one trick pony.

but they allow me to but those things are not I know you called at one point a 40 mil like a polite would you say polite social distance lens you know it's like that's the good do you

have you discovered like what's a hostile focal length the 21 21 mil animal morphic is quite hostile that's basically a 10 mil fish eye view isn't it or like a nostalgic focal lengths

I find it weird. I find it weird using 18 mils inside. I've always found that. I mean, especially on a mini-LF, for example, or in a large format. Weird. But like then the favorite goes and uses an 8-mill lens and it's cool as fuck,

so I don't know what my problem is. I used to get over myself. That's the thesis of the whole talk. Yeah, that's the whole, that's my career. and that's just if my memoirs will just be that page or say get the fuck over yourself and then the end I don't know what it is

I feel like it's because when I have an 18 mil on it's usually I feel like I'm shooting a theatre stage I feel like everything is like over there you know away from me and then everything feels like it becomes flat obviously if the foreground

if I'm shooting like a foreground element with an 18 mill and like a person or an object or something, that can be cool. But sometimes like I've been in situations where a director's like, I want a nice big wide of the room, what's our widest lens? And I say, our widest lens is an 18. They say, right, let's stick that on and let's go for it. And I'll put the lens on and they'll go, yes, I love it.

And I'll think I hate it. But I don't really know how to, sometimes I do articulate. I feel like, oh, does it feel like everything? things like, you know, 50 metres away from us. Like we're, you know, we're not even in the same room as them. And they say, no, no, no, I really love it. It's so wide. We see the whole space. And I'm like, yeah, we see the whole space, but the people are like ants. And aren't we, isn't this quite an emotional scene? Aren't we supposed to be really like with them? Don't we feel like we're sort of literally a fly on the wall? Like, does that fit tonally?

And then sometimes, you know, I don't, like, argue with directors. If that, If that's what they want to do, then we'll do it. But, you know, I feel like it's my job to sort of chip in and go, huh, okay. And yeah, I don't think I've ever successfully used an 18-mill inside, even in like a really, really large space without feeling like I went a bit too wide. Like sometimes I'll go, if it's like a 21 or 24 or 25, I feel even that quells my anxiety a bit.

but when I go 18 or God forbid, you know, Panavision, 17, 12, all of this stuff, I can't, I just can't handle it. I keep, especially because I do primarily docs now, I find I have to keep reminding myself, like, my personal proximity to the subject is what will, is what I need to think about. and then the lensing is how I want to, the lensing is how we're going to make the audience feel what we're trying to feel. My proximity is going to tell us whether or not, I guess it's like base emotion and then accent emotion. Like base emotion is proximity to the subject and then accent emotion is the lens choice. You know, because if I, like, I've been doing a lot of stuff where I have to be in the car with the subject.

And it's like the difference. And we're always in the same two seats. you know but now I've started like really getting in front of them and then like you know here you know because they're having very difficult conversations on the phone about important things and it's like this is more interesting than like you're saying if you were to hit a 18 in there where you can see that they're in the car it's like I don't care if they're in the car yeah I don't know I don't know I it's also you know recently I've I've been thinking a lot about like my practice as a DP and I'm I don't know I'm I've been thinking a lot about like my practice as a DP and and my choices. And I realised some of the films and TV shows that I love the most, like for their cinematography, haven't really done anything crazy. They haven't done any gimmicks.

They haven't done any gimmicky lighting. They haven't, like, attached a camera to, like, someone's cigarette and, you know, been thrown into a bin and been picked up by a dump truck. Like, they haven't done anything crazy like that. They've just... it's been like mids, a couple of mid-clos ups, some wide, you know, maybe it's a handheld tracking shot, maybe it's like a wide establisher, maybe you're tracking from on a dolly, like towards them or away from them.

And in a way quite conventional. And then the lighting is quite naturalistic. And I feel like those are the things that, you know, people go, it looks great, it's such great cinematography. But it's like, towards that the DP hasn't done anything. It's like, I know they have. I know they have. I know they have. I know how hard it is to do that, but it looks like they haven't done anything, you know? And so like when I was shooting this show, I was doing the full opposite of that. And it felt like I was doing like a new type of cinematography for me.

Like I've never shot like that before. I've always tried to sort of heighten the naturalism a little bit or try to be a bit restrained and things. And this one was like totally new experience for me. And it made me wonder what I like. I don't know what I like anymore because I really, the things I thought I liked, the things I think I like doing are never the things I like watching.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the films I love watching, like the way Roger Deakin shoots, for example, really naturalistic, not gimmicky, and even like, you know, 1917 was meant to be like a one-take thing. But it's not a gimmick. It's part of the script.

It's part of how the story should be told, right? It's a very efficient camera movement there, too. It's not like... Absolutely. Exactly. It's not like he's sort of rotating on the ground and then, like, you know, transitioning through someone's eyeball or something. It's like everything is very normal, but it's so such well done normal.

It's like, so I really love cooking. I cook a lot. Same? And like, so if someone makes you or if you make a really gorgeous, beautifully seasoned, roast chicken, I think that, for example, beats, like miso, gotu-jong, butter, caramel ribs with, you know, 20 different herbs and spices. Like, yeah, that stuff's fun, you know, every now and again. But, like, I actually want the really well-done simple stuff, like the basics, but done expertly. and it's it's I've been having this sort of um in November I got named as a BAFTA breakthrough talent and I felt this enormous like thank you I felt this enormous um responsibility in a way like oh shit

like anyone who sees this who sees that I've won this like not award but it's like a you know naming thing recognition recognition yeah anyone who sees that I've won this recognition and is interested in that is going to look back on my work and are they like was my work too stylized sometimes like should I have just gone with like soft light rather than try and be expressive with hard light but like again it's it's like the nightclub photography you know light streak thing is like maybe sometimes you have to just experiment with the wrong thing a few times and fall in love with the wrong thing like I went through this whole phase when I was doing music videos

And it worked. It was effective and everyone loved it. So, and then they'd be like, hey, I want you to do it just like you did in the other videos. And, you know, you end up doing the same thing. But like I had a bunch of filters and tights and shit that I would put in front of the lens. It was just a mess, a poor focus pillar. I don't know why they're still my friends. But, like, just, it'd be like a star filter with a Vaseline smear on it and then a pair of tights that then has got like a weird bit of broken glass in the top corner. And I was like painting all this Vaseline on the optical flat.

causing everyone headaches. And it looked really fucking cool and weird. It looked like the old MTV videos, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I liked the fact that I was learning how to do that. And I was teaching myself how to do that. But then I'd watch, like, a film that Deacons had shot. And I'd just be jealous.

I'd be like, why can't, why do I have to resort to, like, tomfoolery? Why can't I just do a really nice close up, like a really nice midshot? And, you know, like, the way he works, like, he's not, he's not. he's not relying on long lens boca to get people turned on. He's just going for like a 35 mil or a 40 mil or a 28 mil as a close-up with like soft naturalistic lighting. He's not going for any vintage lenses. He's going for these like master primes.

They're very clean. They're very reliable. There's a bunch of focal lens. They're fucking beautiful lenses. And he's so restrained that I then feel jealous. that's what I should be doing. But then, like, you know, when you're starting out, so you need to stand out.

You need to do weird shit. Your work needs to be like, whoa. You know, people are scrolling up and down, going through loads of shit. They need to see your thing and go, oh, what's that? That's, like, you need to almost be like magpie bait, you know? And I feel like I was magpie bait for such a long time. And now I just want to be, like, quite restrained and normal. But I feel like I'm not, like, I'm allowed to be.

because then it looks like I haven't done anything and then I blend into the background. Well, I think you're spot on also. That made me think of so many things. Like, first of all, the idea that like, oh, you're going to get hired over and over again to shoot that style of music video. That's basically what Deacons did.

You know, except his style is restraint. Because everyone uses him as a comp, right? So if you want a Deacon's thing, you call him. Although I've heard him say like that no one calls him because everyone thinks he's too expensive. And he's like, I'll still shoot your movie. I need to work. I love working.

But, yeah, the magpie bait. The other thing, too, I think to your credit is a lot, there's been a lot of sameness happening visually in the world. And I'm in touch with many students, film students, oftentimes, usually online. and they all are like sick of that. Now, like us, they'll probably come back around to it. But I think because they're just inundated with, obviously there's so many streamers,

there's a lot of shows, there's a lot of everything, that whenever there's something new, heavy contrast, noir, lots of colors, you know, whatever it may be, they get really excited. So I think you're at the forefront of that trend. You know, kids are wearing jinkgo jeans. They're wearing no fear t-shirts.

Deftones are back. And I think they want colors and hard. Yeah, it's 2006 again. And you're in the front, baby. I better go buy Apple stock. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, I think it's true.

I have the other problem of like, I don't have anything. I have no magpie bait. And I did have some fashion stuff that looked pretty good for a while. But, you know, that's the hard part of building the reel is like I didn't do enough in any one category. So the reel is just fucked. You know, it's like, I showed it. I just edited one a few months ago and I like showed it to a bunch of friends who were way more successful than me. And they're like, hey man, this is like two reels, maybe three.

And I was like, but then it'll only be a minute each. And they're like, yeah. Yeah. Probably just do that. That's fine. That's fine. I don't need to see everything you can do. And I was okay.

But then you see something like, so I've only watched, I'm always very late to watching things. I'm terrible. I've only watched one episode of severance, right? because I'm that dick-ed. I'm that dick-ed that waits four years after it's stopped being popular. Jessica's good at her job. She's so good at her job. Jesus Christ, makes me feel sick.

So that first episode of Severance, it's shot in a normal way that's not normal. That I love. It's not, there's no, like, it doesn't feel like gimmicks. It just feels like this is that world. I mean, and that's why, like, with the How to Get to Heaven from Belfast, it was a totally different shooting style

than what I normally do, but it felt like it was of the world. So I felt like I was able to be a little bit magpie bait at times because that's that world. Like that world has mad colors in it and it's got weird warpy lenses in it and everything's a bit eerie and a bit strained

and a bit like, I don't know, what's the word I want for it? Like Twilight Zoney. There's just something off everywhere. Something's always off. You're like, oh. And I think Twin Peaks are, like a big reference for Ashley and Michael, who with the Block One team, and Fargo, and that, like,

timeless Americana thing. And I got that as well myself when I read, when I read script one, I got that kind of, you know, that American Gothic painting where it's like the holding a picture for? And it's like two normal people, but not normal. There's something's going on. I don't know what it is. That's his daughter. Did you know that? No. What? I thought it was his wife. That's his daughter. No. Oh, ugh. Hate. Makes that painting way weird.

That's the thing that's off. That's the thing that's off. I didn't know, but now I know. I'm pretty sure. I'm like 80% sure that I heard that recently. That's actually the daughter. And that's why it's so fucking weird. But I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

Because I go between like with photography, I go between like, you know, the magnum photojournalism where it's like war photography and it's all very like. out one magnum photo right there actually in the closet it's it's one that was marked up it's like they sold this series where they had like when they went to go print them they they would do like the markup of like oh you know plus one here minus two here yeah yeah oh cool yeah you're like you're you've got you've got like sebastial salgado where it's it's like an epic you know epic scene and like in a mine and there's thousands of people and they're all sort of in synchronization and

it could be a Jamie XX video as well. And then there's like, like, Saul lighter and it's all out of focus and through steamy glass and stuff. And I just feel like I like I like too much stuff. Like, that's why I feel like I'm still in the, in the Y stage. Mm. You know, because I, well, maybe I'm still in the howl stage? I don't know.

Yeah, I'm still in the how Sal Lider does all that. Because the Salt Lider stuff, too, is. contrasty and colorful a lot of times. And it's like, that looks Photoshopped, but it's from the 50s. Yeah. Or 60s. It's like, anyway. Whenever I do, you know, some of my friends who are directors who I've worked with just crack up

every time they see like a shot that I've done through a window. Because I was fog up the window. I spritz the window. I put all this stuff. Like my nickname for a bit with my camera assistance was Chutney. because in the UK we say like, you know, throw a load of, get rid of that chutney. It's like, all that shit. Get rid of that chutney in the corner.

So I would just throw chutney on the lens, like, you know, like I said, like a filter and sock and a this and that. And then on the glass, I'd be like, hmm, let's spritz it. Let's put some Vasili and let's do this. And it looks really atmospheric and it's very like, very stolen from Sol Leiter, like fully plagiarized from Soul Lighter. But then I'm like, oh, but maybe I want to be more like Sebastiazegro. and do like The Revenant and, you know, or like train dreams. I watch train dreams. It's stunning.

Like, maybe I just want to do this kind of slow, poetic, you know, thing. Tone bones. But then I watch the favorite. And I'm like, oh, maybe I want to just be weird, like Robbie Ryan. And I don't even know what I want to do anymore. I just want to do all of it. I've interviewed so far every single person you've named except Deakin. So you can go back and listen to what their opinions.

Because I've learned so much from them. And we seem to have have the exact same, uh, career, well, you've had a nicer career than me, but mentally, you know, the same. I do, I got to go because, again, the car's going to blow up on me. But I did really quickly, it might not be a quick answer, which is fine. But I did, am I right in hearing that you basically, it was like a weekend between shooting your last gig and this show? So with something that was this expressive and this, how, and you, like, how did you, how did you,

what was pre-production like? So the weekend was between day one of prep on this show and last day of shoot on the last show. So, um, yeah, you know, like you've got your,

prep days is that? Uh, I, I, I had like five weeks of prep. Oh, okay, okay, okay,

yeah, so it was like day one of prep, like, no, no, oh my God, no, oh my God, no.

Um, no, no, so I wrapped, I wrapped a very different type of show, Brian and Maggie, which was the one I got the Bafter Breakthrough for. And that was with, you know, like legendary, very experienced,

much older director called Stephen Frivers. He's like in his 80s. It was period. It was about Margaret Thatcher. And it had to sort of follow a certain faithfulness to that historical period. And then we had, you know, it was on the one hand we have that and then I had this show.

And day one, so it was like Saturday night. we wrapped on Brian and Maggie at like 7pm, 8pm. Monday morning, quite early, like 7 a.m. or something, I was at the airport, getting on a flight. Like, I'm, you know, meeting up, meeting the director for the first time since the interview a month before. We obviously haven't spoken in that time.

I've been shooting and, you know, we're not officially in pre-production, so they're kind of not really allowed to be, like, talking too much about stuff. And so I was meeting everyone, a production designer, producer, director, VFX guy. I was meeting all of these people, Owen, meeting all of these people for the first time at the airport,

getting on a flight to Malta, a three-hour flight to Malta. When we landed in Malta, a van picked us up, and we immediately scouted the locations for episode four, for the Portugal scenes. But Malta was always going to be the last thing we shoot. So this was like mid-August or something, end of August, insanely hot. I don't know what it is in Fahrenheit.

It's over 100, like 110 degrees or something. It's horrible. Sweating like nothing else. So we were scouting that that we were shooting in November. And I hadn't at that point seen anything from the footage because it was literally day one. You know, you get onboarded and it takes a time, a bit of time for you to get access to certain permissions for certain things and stuff. That's normal. That's like every show is like that.

You know, it takes a few days. So I was sort of scouting these things. The footage isn't on Google Drive? Yeah, right. Just screenshot it. Like, I kind of didn't really know what I was looking for. And at that point, because I'd received the script, I'd received my three scripts, I think, at that point.

But because I was shooting and Brian and Maggie was quite a low-budget production, like, so we were working, you know, over what, like, doing extra work for less, budget, you know, like that kind of, that kind of, like, you have to hustle a bit more. And you have to sort of be clever about things because you can't just pull out the toys. So you have to, like, really think your way around scenes and shots and coverage and things and lighting, lighting plans. And so I'd read my three scripts for this show, but not the way like you're supposed to read them. I kind of read them just to know what's happening.

And then I read them maybe one more time. And then I was starting to get confused because I'd been sent all six. script so that I knew what happened before. And then I was on the scout and I was like, oh yeah, and then this and that scene. They were like, no, that happens in episode three. And I was like, oh my God, I need to get my head around these scripts because I'm on a fucking scout with them, but it's day one of the shoot. And I felt like my imposter syndrome massively flared up. And I thought, I'm really excited to do this, but have I made a mistake accepting a job when I didn't have time to like adequately prepare? And then I had to really spend a long time catching myself up

because the scripts are so complex. The characters, you know, everything, the tonal shifts, everything. It wasn't like, you know, oh, they're in a house and they wake up and they make coffee. And it's like, nothing like that. It's like, oh, and then they jump out of a lighthouse and then a yacht explodes. So it was like just, yeah, like a bit difficult for me to get my head around it, having just been exhausted off my face from Brian and Maggie from doing like, you know, you're doing like 12 hour days and then you've got your prep at home and then you've got to come in early

because you've got to think about something or other for the day and then your weekends isn't a weekend because you're you're pre-houring about next week so I just didn't really have time to like do my pre-pre-pre that I'd normally do where I just like read the scripts and get fully immersed in them and like really understand everything that's required of me and I just felt like I was playing catch-up and it was just a bit difficult for me I can't remember what your question was, but I hope I'm up for that. Oh, it was just basically walked me through that experience because it seemed, just from what I had read, like, it seemed arduous.

That year, 2024 was crazy busy. So, like, October 23 to Feb 24, I was doing a TV show called Funny Woman. And then literally, like, two days after I wrote Funny Woman, I was doing a Formula One commercial with Lewis Hamilton and people like then I did a few other commercials I did a whiskers cat food commercial that was amazing because I loved cats and I was like literally jumping up and down

my agent time and so I just deal with these commercials and then I did Brian and Maggie and then I immediately did How to Get to Heaven from Belfast and then between so we shot Belfast for like six or seven weeks I think and then Dublin for one week then we stood down on hiatus for three weeks

while block three went in and to start working in Belfast so I was flown back to London and you're on hiatus you're not technically supposed to be like working but Malta was about to come up and blowing up a yacht was about to come up and all this stuff so we were like

hmm we have quite a lot to discuss and then there was like a ton of meetings during that hiatus about Malta I sent my gaffer out there to scout because he hadn't been able to do it. I had a commercial in Lithuania at that time that was like four days long or something. Then I was colour grading Brian and Maggie while I was trying to prepare for Malta. Then we shot Malta and then as soon as I got back from Malta, I jumped onto a small TV pilot where I was in Lapland and, you know, in November and December.

I was in Lapland in January but I was scouting it in November. and then shooting just outside of London in a hotel to fake being Lapland. So I just didn't sit down at all that year. It was just a bit nuts. And then like the first six months of 2025 were pretty much dead. Like I did that one week in Lapland. I did one week in Lapland. I did a short film that I was super proud of.

I did a couple of commercials maybe. And then I color graded the Belfast job. But I think between January and like July, I think I did something like 20 days of work whereas normally at that point I've done like a hundred days of work at least you know if not more and so that was super weird and a bit depressing

but I also really needed that downtime after that crazy year and yeah it felt like then it felt you know when I got the BAFTA breakthrough I was like yeah you know what that was my breakthrough year because I did fucking everything that year and it was great and it was fun and they were all projects that I really loved

and really proud of every single one of them even the commercials sometimes commercials are difficult because they're like maybe not as imaginative but me and the director got some cool stuff so yeah it was like a really cool year and I was fucking exhausted but then I sat on my ass for six months after that so that was fine

so it worked out I mean there's there's a great book called oh shit what's the book called it's not on that it's not on that shelf anyway it's a book about flow states oh yeah

oh uh chick chich mehaley what the fuck yeah uh chick chichai mick chihai he's got chick high mccheehai or something like that I think it's on my bookshelf yeah I know I know it it's called flow isn't that it's called flow

well so there's that book but then there was another one where a guy was kind of like dumbing it down so I'm talking about the dumbing it down but you get the whole point the the idea of like the release being important to start the flow state to like study you know hard whatever and then the walk away where you don't do it like learning that really helped me because like you're saying like you can start to feel like oh no I'm not working that's important time so it's like recovery in the gym you know like that's important time you can't just be working out all the time exactly no but it made me realize that like because when you're on in this industry you're

on and you're doing like 70, 80 hour weeks, you're can't canceling all your plans, you can't see anyone, you're too exhausted to meet your partner or your friends or whatever. So you basically become a loner, like a hermit for four months or longer if you're lucky slash unlucky. And then you come off that job, you wrap it, your contractor's over. And now it's like, do, do, do, do what do I do with my day? And so I realized this year that I need to be on when I'm off. Like I need to do three days a week, half a day, you know, go to a gallery or go see a film or watch a film and like super analyze it or like sit down and, you know, read a film, filmy kind of book or something or watch some YouTube video, whatever. I need to do something that keeps my brain in cinematography mode because otherwise I go from like, I become like a standby. I go, you. And I say, sort of power down, there's like a sort of red blinking light that's like when you need to activate me again, when you, you know, when I have an interview request or something like that,

I will go, hello, I'm awake and I'm ready. But until that time, it just, it becomes weird. It's like, I now am a slug who does nothing. Like, I don't know how to exist anymore unless I have, I have a job. And that's a very strange thing to do because the whole point of working as a freelancer is that you should be able to have more time to like have work-life balance. So this year I'm trying to go to lots of gigs. So I'm going to see Machine Head again. I haven't seen them since I was 14. I'm seeing System.

I'm seeing Metallica with Pantera. I'm seeing this really cool band called Tinari Wen. I don't know if you've heard of them. They're awesome. They're not metal. Fuck, where are they from? Are they from Mali? I actually can't remember where they're from now.

I'm seeing Fat Freddy's Drop They were awesome They're performing based on True Story 30 years anniversary Which is playing the whole album It's my favourite album of all time I'm seeing death times I'm seeing The Prodigy

I'm going to all these gigs I'm trying to like gigs are my thing So I'm trying to just go to more of those I spent my 40th birthday just in December in Brazil so hoping to go on holiday again at some point but like I yeah I've basically just been you know the last few years I've been so so so so so busy

that I I'm basically on fully on and not doing life just doing work and then I'm off and I'm too fucking tired and burn out to actually do either life or work so then I just sort of like sit there so this year is the year of like doing something inspirational taking coach I was going to say all that all that's going to fill the tank earlier when you're talking about just like not knowing what kind of stuff you want to fit like in this off period or where you're just like exploring shit

that's where you're going to find the good stuff. Yeah. You know, and especially not when you're specifically studying cinematology. I find I always learn in analogies. It's always something else that tells me what I should be doing

cinematography wise. Yeah. Whether it be music or woodworking or, you know, some cultural thing or like anything. There's a lot of different ways where you go like, oh, that's kind of like this other thing. And then you're, that's where the fun is.

Yeah, like the roast chicken thing. You know something I did last year that was really cool? Do you eat meat? Oh, yeah. So I did a sausage making workshop where I, like, I went to Barrow Market, which is a really gorgeous market in London, to this really famous butcher's.

And I did a sausage making. workshop and it was the most fun thing I've ever done. I made like 10 kilos of sausages and then I got given some bacon and some black pudding and then they made like a roast pork crackling thing with me and it was like 200 pounds or something for like I don't know five hours but I just felt I do something with my hands it was so cool and like my gaffer in Lapland had inspired me because he was like oh every year I make sausages he just has a whole day where like like him and his wife and their friends come around and they just make a bunch of different sausages. And I was like, that's so fucking cool. I want to learn how to make sausages. And then I wanted to do

this cooking course and all this stuff. But like, yeah, I just feel like I need to keep myself busy because I feel like I'm, sometimes I'm scared to start even like a DIY project or book a holiday or whatever because then an interview is going to come and a job's going to come. And then I'm like, I'm going to miss out. So then I'm just always in standby waiting for work. And I feel like I need to not do that because actually it's going to make me a better DP if I come to it. You know, like how I came to this later in life, having been a nightclub promoter and an English teacher and all this mad stuff. And now I feel like it's helped me when I'm shooting and when I'm working with people, which is really the biggest part of my job, like being a manager. All that life experience helps me, I think, to work with people and I hope that that comes across to my crew.

because I always deeply loved my crew and I tried to treat them very well. So, yeah, I think I... Yeah, fuck it. It's too much to do, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I would love to keep chatting, but I literally do have for him.

But the next time you get an opportunity, we'll have you back. And also, I'm going to DM you a picture of my cat. You're going to freak the fuck out. Oh, my God, yeah, I'm going to freak out. Anyway, yeah. It was a fucking phenomenal chat with you And the show is funny and awesome and rad.

And it was really fun watching it. I'm actually interviewing Ashley in a week, I think. So I've done it in reverse, but it's going to be cool to get both sides of the stories. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Framing reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refepod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.