Frame & Reference Podcast - 235: "How to Get to Heaven from Belfast" Cinematographer Ashley Barron, ACS

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

Part two of HTGTHFB! This week we've got Ashley Barron on the program, mostly diving in to laughter and friendship but also plenty to learn as always!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hey guys. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that this podcast wouldn't exist without the behind the scenes help of all of the PR people who bring their clients to me. And, you know, I certainly book a handful of people just based off friendship, but certainly not the majority. And one of the people that books a lot of folks for me is Maddie. And Maddie has just started. a Maddie Meyer has just started a new podcast called Maddie Mania where they talk about pop culture, you know, going over all our niche interest, getting amazing guests. Each episode, you know, is part fan spiral, part insider chat, delving deep into the fandoms and phenomena that make her lose her mind from WWE to Broadway comic books to Ariana Grande, Smallville, Teen Wolf, K-pop to the MCU. Park to basketball blending, personal fandom, pop culture analysis, and interviews with people who just get it, just as she does. Maddie Mania, the podcast is chaotic, funny, and heartfelt, and she believes pop culture isn't a hobby. It's its own language. So if you ever cared too much about something, please listen to Maddie Mania. You can pick it up on IHeard Radio, Amazon Music, Spotify, YouTube, all the great things.

She's on her, I think, fourth episode. Let me look this up. Very fast. Oh my goodness. Fourth episode, just brand new. But I really wanted to shout her out. Make sure you guys listen to it because she's been a good friend to the podcast. And I want to make sure that she gets all the attention she deserves. So with that, let's get to this episode. Welcome to this episode 235 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Ashley Barron, ACS. DP of How to Get to Haven from Belfast. Enjoy. Fuji film just lent me their Eternah because I might use it for a documentary.

Okay. I know you said you're like platform agnostic, but if given anything, like, are you, I've learned about myself, I'm just like, big sense, give me big sensor. I want big sensor. I don't care. Yeah. I do like for big sensor.

It's nice. I think I like it a lot because it gets to see into the optics of lenses. in a way that other formats don't. You know, because so much of the magic of some lenses lives in that kind of periphery that we kind of just cut into on the other senses. So yeah, that's, I think, why I'm really excited

by anything larger. And it just has that kind of separate. It sort of has this sort of the separation between the boreground background, similar to what anamorphic does, where it's like it etches out, we used to feel, yeah. So, yes, I'm a big fan.

So I see the budget for it. Well, I slapped this, uh, Midacom. It's like a $500 lens, I think. Now you're cheaper. Um, but it's a 65 millimeter 1.4 made for the GFX lines. So the, these, these things. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Um, and that, that feels like a cheat code. That feels, you know that, that, that, in, um, Yeah, okay. Oppenheimer, that close up.

Everything looks like that. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's like, it's like going back to the 5D mark two days. Yes. I remember those.

I had one. Did you? I did. We had to borrow them from the film school. I bought myself. It was just at that 5D revolution. Um, I bought myself,

uh, the 5D and a couple of lenses like these little, you know, sort of, well the 50 mil because it was all wide open and stuff but then like some rocking on like sine lenses you know at a tripod and I just that's how I made my money

for about like a year or so just shooting random you know branded contents and things like that just so that I you know I come with my own gear on my back back in way yeah yeah it was you know you gotta do what you got to do man I had

I had an AF 100 that's what I because I needed like the XLRs I was very early on in my career This is something that hurt me. I was very punk rock about everything. So if everyone was like, we're getting the 5D, I was like, I'm smarter than you. Okay. But I did, one thing that was really, remember that, what was it, the fig rig, that giant steering wheel?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember that. And it didn't get to use it. I just, I did remember using my tripod as a gimbal once. Like I'll still do that. Closing the legs down. Yeah, it works. I know because it's a light tripod.

Lightweight. Actually, Steadycam made a monopod, and it's not supposed to be like a steady cam. It's just under the Steadycam brand. Yeah. But it's weighted in such a way that even with a heavy camera, for some reason, it like, I've used it to steady things out. It's really interesting. Yeah, nice. Yeah.

I mean, I think horses for courses, right? Toolbox expanding is always good. Did you ever use those? we've talked about this before a bunch, but those lettuce adapters, the Red Rock Micro, like you'd have to slap it on the DVX and made it this long.

I think I remember very early days. Like a very brief encounter with it. But no, I had, no, I did have an adapter for like, but it was like a screw-on adapter to be able to use simplified lenses on your micro 2 and that kind of thing. But I did see something at a VST Expo, which is kind of interesting,

where they like, oh, I can't remember the name of it now, but it was like the guy's surname, but it was, I'm from L.A., where you, like, basically take a massive, like, blanking on the size, but it's like large format, basically. And then, like, you squeeze it down onto a Super 16th sensor. And it keeps all of them. Oh, yeah.

I've seen that thing. It's a big adapter. Yeah, it's like a, yeah, as you were saying earlier, like it's that same kind of snorkel thing. It becomes sort of like a smuggle camp. I don't know to snorkel in. Yeah. But it's the same thing.

Then you get to see really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was kind of curious about it. Yeah. Yeah. It preserves all that, which is quite cool. Yeah.

Do you geek out about lenses a lot? I mean, I geek out by anything that like, I like lens. I don't geek out about the tech. I geek out on like how it makes me feel, which is very obviously cinematographic work. But like I like anything. Like, but like I like anything. anything old, I like anything that has character, like anything that looks like it's been like drags through the mud and like now you can, you know, it's all, you know, so I geek out about that stuff.

I'm not like, ooh, it has its eye technology and like, you know, fluid, just focus. You know, like, that's the AC's job. Yeah. Does it use cook or whatever they own is? Yeah, I really enjoyed actually when you at that. Or it was like he like couldn't power up in a mirror, like, say, yeah. Yeah. So it's like, every time I come close to the camera, it's like, the.

Don't let the DP close by, you'll just break it. Yeah. It is funny how like, well, I was going to ask actually, because like, obviously AFI, you get all the tools you want, but the, I wrote it down, put it not on this piece of it. Whatever school you went to beforehand, was it. Curtain. Curtain was before that. Yes. What was the sort of like, I guess, rental and like, how, how were you able to make sense?

things at that school because at like ASU when I went, we literally, they had one 5D and we had to fight over that. Everyone else was just kind of like, they were like, make a movie. And then, you know, this is like 2008. And we're like with what? So the fact that I had that I had an XL2 and then AF100 and like I was like renting it to other student or giving it just letting them happen. But, you know, what was that experience like for you?

It's a good question. We had like broadcast cameras. It's like there's a part of me like operating this mohousive you know like put a VHS tape slap into a kind of vibe. It's like yeah. Yeah, you just kind of, you know, but I mean it was, you know, a film school that I don't even know if it was. Like it was a bachelor's out of a university. I don't know if that course is even there anymore. But it was, yeah, and you only get to shoot in like your final year, the first two years you're sharing with like mass communication students and journalists and media.

you know, like sort of nothing until then. So yeah, so we just had whatever the store had, you know, and it was mostly broadcast. The thing that made me like kind of fall in love is knowing that I knew I wanted to become a cinematobos when someone gave me a 16-mill out on and just showed me how to clean it and I was just mesmerized. I didn't get to shoot ironically with film until I went to Canada. But yeah, it's so yes, I find it would have been, you know, probably nicer.

but to be fair I mean I think that that that short film that I shot at Curtin it was part of my I don't think it's what got me over the line but you know it's part of my application to AFI so it was like you know wasn't terrible a show that I mean you know

if you can like if you can make something make someone feel something with any kind of format doesn't matter right as long as you can feel you know that yeah that was actually the one thing that's always stuck in me my directing teacher was like filmmaking is it was probably the only thing that stuck with me he was I went to a party school I was busy having fun um but uh he said filmmaking is just making people feel what you want them to feel when you want them to feel it yeah and that really helped me not

like focus too much on yeah the the camera side which is hilarious as a DP but like you know I would be like hey can we like find a better location you know we've all got like apartment with white walls and no art and some hot Yeah, well, this was in Arizona too So it would just be like You know, you'd reach out to the acting school And you'd get these like hot 20 year old girls

That are supposed to now be quote unquote living in what is your apartment Real incongruous No woman lived like we did Oh you've got a Papp's Blue Ribbon Signs stolen from a apartment sign stolen from a bar, that's interesting. What does that say about this character? See, I like that kind of stuff.

I don't have to be fair. I'm still in random shit. But you know, I do have to say, like, I will probably kind of contradict myself. But I will say that I did start noticing changes in my trajectory when I started shooting with different kit. You know, like, I think, like, I do remember when I started pairing. you know like I used to pair like red cameras with like you know very cheap like those rocking ons or whatever and I don't know if maybe it was just my own heart didn't feel confident by seeing it would always

look kind of flat or whatever and then as soon as I started being able to get like anamorphic lenses or primos or you know that kind of thing it just sort of I felt to me it felt like there was so much more depth and what I was trying to communicate came through a lot more. And maybe it's just more the yeah, I don't know, maybe people responded to the fancy. At the time, I was trying to get myself more work in commercials in Sydney and Australia. So, you know, at the time it was all like easy rings on anamorphic lenses and, you know, that was like kind of the vibe. So I don't know. But yeah, so it's, though I do agree that like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm sort of 50-50 on both now because I've had both experiences. Well, and it also like, I,

I remember when I finally had a camera that shot log and actually being able to color grade. Like that suddenly opened up. And then of course you do the thing where you go too hard, you know, everything looks ridiculous. And you're like, I need to simplify. That's right. Just because you can does everything you should. Oh, no. Yeah.

Do you find you were able to like, because you mentioned like more about feeling and stuff, do you find that you were able to articulate what you were trying to do when you were like experimenting or whether it be that or lighting or whatever, or was it more just like, this just feels right? Yeah, I know. It's always, yeah, to this day, I still, why references are so important to me, even them, I tried to analyze what about them that I like or dislike, because I've also shown references to people and they do, they'd mimic it. And then I'd be like, that's not right.

But I'm, I often still don't know how to, I mean, I'm getting better. But yeah, it's still that thing of like, I just need to see it to like, sometimes I can't quite articulate what's not working. But that's why I feel it's so, like, why I love what we do and why I stopped kind of doing anything photography-wise, because I really love the fact that's collaborative. Like, for example, I'm grading right now. Rivals, the show that I shot last year.

And I just sometimes would sit and I just go, I just, there's something, something not, you know, just like, it doesn't feel like night or it doesn't feel like this or whatever. And then, you know, then you kind of spitball against each other. And then they might do something and you go, oh, actually, do that over there. And like, you know, so something becomes greater than the sum of its parts. And so I think that's why I actually don't, sometimes it's cool that you don't know what the answer is because then you, this is why you have all these people that like, you know, or point something out to you go. And also I think of the cinematographer, like you don't, you know, you've got so many things that you have to think of.

Like, say, especially if you're shooting like a, you know, a show or a project or whatever. Like when you're on set, there are so many like neural pathways going on in the brain, you know, whereas like a gaffer or a. Indy to colorists later or whatever. They're just looking at that one thing. And so they really just see that. You know, like, and whereas you're, like, thinking about, like, the schedule and, like, the actors and the director and, you know, like, the everything, you know, so it's, that's also why it's important to other people around.

But, yeah, so sometimes you're not going to see everything because you've got so much, so many radios going. Yeah. The, you know, you had mentioned once in a different interview that, like, light. is the only thing that remains yours. Yeah, yeah. And I was wondering what, how do you balance that

and like taking ownership of the image with like a really strong will director? Ooh, good question. Good question. I think the way that I balance it, right? Well, I mean, look, sometimes, I think then I kind of, especially if I like with the directors

where they're going, especially if, you know, even if they have better idea, is or you know like I can because often again they're seeing it from the finished product they have a score playing in the head and they're the edit going you know like and so then like if I I basically then try to figure out how to provide what they need and I'll always still come from my sensibilities if that makes sense so it's not like I'm they're going to be like I want that and I and I hate it and I don't want it to look like that you know like it's I often you know you

get hired for doing for something that you've done before that they like and it's in your wheelhouse. So I then, if, you know, then I go, okay, well, how do I structure my knowledge of light and what I like about light in a way that fits their narrative? So, and I don't know. Maybe that is, you know, pushovery because sometimes like I look at some, actually on my show on how to get to heaven, there I'm frozen. I'll come back. It happens sometimes. There we're going back. But yeah, so like even my operator was like, oh, you know, you just, you're so calm. Like I need, I need to be a bit like that. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe I need to be a bit more pushy. So maybe it's the wrong way. But I just, I'm like, I don't want to fight anybody. You know, like we're all here to do a thing.

So, so yeah, so that's like I think sometimes you will work with people who were very visual directors like Fincher or whatever. You know what I mean? Like he does what he does. He shoots in certain ways that he can do all he wants to do it later. but I think then you work, then you figure out how do you imprint yourself through that mechanism. And every director is different in that respect. But yeah, it's a good question because sometimes it is like, yeah, it's like, well, you know, but equally then I wonder how do gaffers and then colorists feel because ultimately buck stops with me, like just because they're like a certain kind of light, doesn't mean I do. And or my colorist will do a thing.

It's like, I think it looks good, love me. So it's like, and no disrespect, but like, but. But equally, this is my work. So, you know, so it's like, everyone's got someone to answer to the world, don't they? Yeah. Yeah, honestly, if I ever was given the privilege to shoot for Fincher, I would just delete whatever my thing is.

You're going to his film school now. That's like you're going to learn how to make a Fincher movie. Oh, totally. But that's totally it. I also think it's like this, you know, like I said, especially if you feel like they are, elevating through their ideas. And I've had directors, gaffers, people teach me things by like doing something.

I'm like, huh, I never would have done it that way. That's actually smart, you know. So I think there is also that element of like you do just like let the ego go away, you know, and like, and I even remember like on dangerous liaisons, we shot a lot of scenes in one or at least one shot, one like, yeah, one setup would be fluid and would move around a lot. And which drove my gaffer crazy because, you know, that takes a lot of work. And sometimes we would shoot in the iPad. Just with the hand trying to dance.

And I remember showing him the final piece, which got edited. And he was like, we didn't have to light it like that. Oh my God. And I'm like, no, but like what makes this kind of lighting approach and this kind of shooting approach so effective and powerful is that like the actors feel the fluid. Like it informs the performance because they can be fluid. they don't have to hit marks, they can go, you know, so there's an energy to it, even if it's not energy through camera movement, like in a oner sense,

but there's energy, yeah, between the actor and the camera. So, you know, I was like, this isn't about our lighting, dude. Like, this was about trying to create, like, again, of making people feel a certain way. So, so, yeah, there's something always bigger than yourself. Yeah, a lot of Belfast was lit, pretty 360, right? Oh, yeah, that was very much the first, and that was the, first, And that was the first thing that we kind of talked about when we met even, because I think a lot of, I've sort of become a little bit, the 360 gala, at least that's what always is brought up when I have meetings. Because I did on dangerous liaisons and it worked very well. And then people get excited by like hearing another director say, oh, Ash, let me do all the stuff. It's like I didn't find anyone. So yeah. So, and I think, I think for this especially, it was very kind of value. from the beginning, and not only to have the kind of flexibility on the day because, you know,

we did want movement that was energy. It's a, you know, it's a buddy comedy, kind of an enigmatic body comedy, I guess, and there's a lot of movement and there's like a journey. And so I really wanted to feed into that. And I know Michael, like, he loves working with, with the operator and Dekke O'Grina and the Ronan and stuff. But I also feel like because it's such a, tonally fluid piece. You know, it's like a mashup of, it was like a, yeah, tunnel mashup that like, and it was a journey for everyone.

You know, Lisa McGee, my clinic's director myself, like every day was like, had we find that balance that I wanted to create that kind of environment where we weren't locked in, you know, fully so that you could every day respond to what was in front of you. And you always do that anyway, like as soon as you can have the most prepped director ever. And then on the day, things might change because of actors and location and serendipity

or shit hitting the fan with schedules or something, you know. But for me, it was also really important because it was that thing of like, yes, there were ideas and there's, you know, references to blah, blah, blah. But like ultimately, you know, when you finally see it on the page and then you see it on screen. Like I know that Lisa McGee, like she actually said that, you know, she took out some jokes because she was feeling like the jokes were kind of undermining the drama or the horror or the thriller or mystery other times. And sometimes you can only see that when you're there.

So yeah, so it was like, there was a multitude of reasons why 360 work. But yeah, and I don't know. I do, like I said, I really enjoy the energy that that brings. Yeah, I mean, you guys, I talked to Nat about this, but like employing that, I've used that Atlas 21. Oh, yes. And I applaud you for even bothering because. Especially if you're at a light.

Who cares if you light for 360? You can't light at all with that thing. It's going to be in the shop. Oh, so good. It's funny. I didn't. I actually remember not reading something that she said about how like, oh, there's my my lad's a shot.

Yeah, I just, like I said earlier, I'm such a big fan of anything that has character. And, you know, we had to be very mindful that we didn't use a form. Matt that distracted from, you know, from the comedy and from the world, I had to like just be odd and warped enough, you know, so for me, the 21 was just like that perfect little, where here we are, that you can go back again. It's like, you're constantly like, you know, giving, you're sharpening the comedy with this eerie weirdness. Like, I just thought it was, yeah. And, but I, I think, I was going to say something else about it, but now it's escaped me. But yeah, so I, for me, I'm like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I.

The weirder, the more that that can play, you know, the lights, the lights can be, the lights can, that's why there's a lot of, like, people's, you know, like lights and hands and things so they can just follow with the cast. Oh, is that where you, did you have people just hand holding lights? Yeah, sometimes we did. Yeah, which we did a lot. I got that from Dangerous The Aeaters because we used to, like, have a stereo tubes and hands and move them around and stuff. So, but, you know, we also got to, like, clip, like, you know, stereo is wonderful, the tiny clip them and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, actually a lot of our lights would, yeah, there's so many that were not even like the no lights on stands. And then lighting from outside.

And like just a lot of integrated lighting, you know, so like there were like pracks and things like that. But I mean, yeah. And sometimes it's, you know, like I said, this is why I light for the grade because there's often things, the shape that you do later because, you know, you can. How do you, if people are hand holding lights, how do you keep it from? looking like they're moving. Moving. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think rehearsals,

direction softness, like strong people. Strong dancers. But yeah, no, I think, yeah, I think softness for me is a thing. Like, you know, I don't put Fresnels on there, you know, or like, I don't put like source fours.

They are all esteras and things. And they're not the only source in the room, you know, so they kind of, they do get engulfed in the like the ambience. So as long as there's sort of there is a consistency, I guess, then yeah, I haven't. It kind of wraps around enough. Yeah.

I did see that you're a particular, you're particular about eye light. And I love talking to people about eye light because I think it's the one thing that like, you know, you talk about three point lighting. I think eye light should be included. there should be four point lighting in schools and eyelight should be one of them because like

sometimes the shape even before I realized that like that was a thing when I was a student sometimes it would be like a close up and the eye light makes them look like they're going to cry but it's not a crying scene you know like they just placed it somewhere or maybe it was a fill light that was just getting caught

you know and you're like ah because you know as a DP I'm always staring at people's eyeballs like where did they put the light I want to know But yeah, what's your general approach there? Oh, I think, I mean, in terms of thematically or technically, because I think in terms of... I guess both.

Both. I mean, yeah, thematically, I think a lot, I mean, it's all in the eyes. I, you know, I think obviously eyes are the windows, this all and that kind of stuff, but also like everything hangs off of the character. So, like, as long as you see the eyes, and especially when we talk about darkness, like, I think, you know, I think that... As long as you can see the eyes, there's like a pangonym, so much can be forgiven in terms of, and there's obviously a separation or whatever, but like ultimately it's like you don't have to be waxed with a massive key light as long as there's even just, you know, like I really enjoy, what are they called, like the bricks with the dome. The dash. That's it. And you have the dome on it. You know, and it just gives you that circular thing. So you don't feel it like there's like a, you know, a futuristic like line in their eye or a square, which is.

You know, so you can always tell what it is. But then when you don't use the eye light, that you use for, that's a whole other story thing. Like they're dead inside. They're hiding something. You know, you can really like, yeah, like it's such a, it's a powerful thing. So I think for me it's just to get out of jail. Like darkness is always a conversation, especially in something like what we did. I mean, we didn't really have anyone hanging over saying like it's too dark.

And we particularly did want to light faces. because, you know, that is where the comedy lies. And you kind of, you know, as long as you see the face, like everything else kind of can essentially balance within it. So if the whole world is dark and creepy and there's like one red light somewhere, or in my case, the purple, because I was a really big kind of, if it's purple, someone's going to die. But the, do you have that book?

Yeah. Yeah, it's in one of these piles. There it is. Oh my God, the only person I've ever mentioned it to that, who knows it. Yes. Yes. And like, yeah, I put purple.

I don't think my directory knew what I was doing. He was just like he liked color. I was like, it's got to be purple. And then he liked orange. Eventually, kind of moved on to orange. But no, that was my whole thing. And you can, you know, you can see it in the airplane.

When Greta first sort of shows up to Sierra Shed, then you can see it in the bathrooms. Like, there's just random purple glow from the, like, the windows. And then what I really really like doing was that, Like that there was always like this sort of like, I like to call like a vivid unease where it's like you don't actually see what's coming from. You just feel an ambience of like you just like the smoke picks up light. Like we had blue in the church or in the hotel in that first episode and knocked at our hotel like that we had this purple glow that we actually had an analogue with with purple dialed in to like bounce so that it would just give this like, you know, just this vibe.

So it's, yeah, so for me, anyway, I digress into color. But yes, I'm so amazing. Well, you know, like half of the collections I have, you know, some of them are like photo books. I don't go books, but the color was the one that I, like, even to this day, I still get real nervous about. And maybe this is just, you know, this is more than likely just a lack of experience. But because most, I had primarily shoot documentaries now, but even before that, it was everyone, everyone is. just asking for natural. I just wanted to look.

I don't want to notice that there's a light anywhere. So I got really good at balancing, you know, like there's a light here. This isn't the window, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I got good at that. Like exact color temp matches with like X, X, Y coordinates and stuff, which made Steve Yedlin very happy, which I was like, yay, he loves me. Um, X, Y,

X, Y. Uh, oh, Steve. Yeah. But, stuff like that. And then just like, I feel like it probably comes from back in school and stuff when, like, you were using shittier cameras.

And if you introduced any color, it would just kill the whole. It was harder to control. Yeah. But no, I think you're absolutely right. There was this whole, like, saturation and like band, bending. And now that we have HDR, it's a whole of the world. So, yeah, I hear you. Yeah, yeah, there was.

Yeah, I agree. I asked Nat this, but this would be a good question for you, too. Like, how did you, there's a ton, not, not in every scene, but in a lot of scenes, there's a whack ton of color. How do you keep it from? Is it just the technology that allows you to send it and not have to really worry? Or how do you keep it from looking muddy or too monochromatic or messy? That's a very good question. Pockets, direction.

So like, and like having, yeah, like that there was never even, I think Hayes was the only thing that gave us sort of a broad vibe, if that makes sense. So everything was kind of like all of the, I don't think we, it's very seldom that we had a fixture that would not have a honeycomb on it, you know, like a grid just to like direct it. So and then, yeah, I think it's just like when it's integrated and you have enough darkness that balances out. Because I think that was for me really important thematically with this as well was that because we did want this eerie beauty, you know, we did want this like vivid on edie. wanted it to be kind of like it couldn't be gloomy, you know, and for color, it's interplay with darkness. Really, one kind of brings out something in the other and then brings the other one down. So it like it allows you to to, I guess, try play with that tonal fluidity. So I think for me, making sure there was actually enough darkness in the frame that allowed, because I think if you were like in a

white room. I don't think it would have been as effective. So for me there's a lot of, it's about that kind of balance as well. And yeah, of course your technology does help and then the grade is huge. But yeah, you just, like, I don't think we ever washed any lights. For me,

it's like having a glow that comes up from, like when you have an astira behind a couch that just gives a bit of a glow onto the wall below, you know, and if that's a color, that separates it too. So, yeah, it's It's, I think, and when you play it with color, I think it's one of the few times where I'm not a big fan of small fixtures because they, just like light physics, you know, it kind of could become quite hard. But if you have the right kind of diffusion, obviously.

But I think when it comes with color, like, you do need something that isn't as massively broad that kind of goes everywhere, if that makes sense. So yeah, it's a balance. But it's funny, as like, as I said, I'm like how, I think it does become a bit of an intuitive thing that like you kind of when you see it, you. you go, like, let's close that down. You know, like when we bounce or like, it's also about level. So I'm like jumping around. But it's also about level. Bro, that's me all the time.

Don't worry. You go right ahead. I'm following. You're like, this is my life. This is my brain. But it's also about like, I find especially with LEDs and how, how, you know, how dimming has become so, so accurate and so minimal. Like, you can go down to such a small percentage.

So like, you don't have to be really bright on your feet. fixtures to feel them either. So it's like, it's just, yeah, I think that also, and I would say that it's not just in color, but also in like, you know, a key light, like I think just under-exposing the key can sometimes be gorgeous. That's the Bradford Young kind of key, you know, where it's like, you just take out a percentage out of it and just feels like it doesn't feel saucy anymore. So I think that's the same with color. It's like, you don't have to whack it to sort of feel it. And I actually learned, like, I used to play a lot with gels when I was at AF. fire like I don't even remember who I gave this my massive box of very dusty gels too but like

you sort of learn which colored like temperature source mixed with what gel will render what kind of hue you know like I'm a big fan of sort of more of a neutral vibe so like I would tend to put most colors on like HMI well at the time was HMI's so it's either of you know tungsten for now on HMI but like you know anything that had like a sort of 5600 daylight base because then if you you were to put, and I, like, I think I had so many dark rooms in films, in short films, you know, coming up that, like, I always found that if you put a red gel on a tungsten, it would just become too orange for me. So it was like that kind of stuff as well, like, what you mix it with. So it becomes like a real paintbox as well. So yeah, and it's funny

because I never really articulate to myself, like, until you talk to someone about it, you realize how you do, why you do this things you do it. I don't know that I would have forgotten out, but like, well, you must do this. It's just like you just kind of, Just to add that's what you want for. I will say, like, I did a, I write for a website for a cinematography. And one thing that I noticed when, when, uh, RGB LEDs were coming out was they don't, unless they're the nice, expensive ones. I haven't tested a lot of them, but they don't do that color temperature mix. They'll just do, you know, a mix of the RGB.

Now we have the RGB WW, whatever, you know. And so they would be like, oh, you know, RGBs have gels. And it's like they don't. They emit a color. All the colors are going to change if you just set it to red, you know, dark room red. Yeah. So like for a while there, I was telling people to gel their LEDs instead of going into the RGB

because otherwise the colors get all screwy. Oh, interesting. Spectrally. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, we did have something. I don't know if this is similar if I'm, if I'm vibing, but like, on, we had another dark room on rivals that I just did. And the DIT, when we were doing the tests with my lighting team,

the DIT was saying that like to, I think there was like putting in a certain, a blue or something, something into the blue channel somewhere for it to work a certain way. But as I say it, that's not the same thing as what you just said though, is it? Kind of, no, because the issue is that, you know, I think maybe, maybe films. interacts differently, but LED's, if they don't have those white chips included in the filter emulation, then it is just a color. And obviously, color is reflective, right? It just, it absorbs and reflect.

And so if the LED source is only giving off a narrow band of the spectrum, you base, like, if you have red and then you aim at it like a red, there's just a bunch of red right here. then it'll turn, you know, black instead of reflecting red. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you gel a white LED, you'll get the correct look. Interesting.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I hear you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. I'm wondering if, like, on, um, if this is a little similar, like when we did dangerous seasons, it was like when we lit when, not we, when, when, what they noticed was when they were only lighting with candles that because there was not enough signal, like there was not

enough spectrum in there, that there was a lot more noise and they couldn't grade it as much. And so we ended up, I always tried to have like some sort of color, like a neutral vibe somewhere. So like say, and it's in a steer off frame that is pointing like just either, either like wrapping around that one tungsten from the candle with actual like tungsten from the light, which to your point has other things going on in it, but also then, or you have a little bit of just a neutral F56 somewhere into the shadows,

but it's very low, but the camera is picking that up so it's got something to work with. So yeah, so that feels a little bit more in line with what you're saying. Well, and famously, depending on the camera, the red channel is dog shit. on the sensor. So I remember the early reds had a huge,

hilariously enough by the name, had a huge issue with, they're called red and you had to use daylight or else they would just all turn to mush. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the iron. Yeah.

I bet they just picked that name because it was like the, you know, the Oakley guy. So he's like, what sounds cool? Fucking red. Put it on camera. I don't know that. Yeah.

going back to the idea about like all the colors stuff like that and you were talking about like dragging lenses or lens looking attractive what were the other because the show looks very textured beyond the lenses you know what what else were you doing to kind of get that um i don't know lived in look or however you want to describe it yeah interesting um i mean actively i think i like i think for me without even sort of again realizing it like i think i don't like over expose anything. Everything's either at here or below. So there's like you're almost, something you're under exposing the image, but I think that there is an element of not giving it so much that it needs it like, you know, it doesn't work a little bit.

You make it work a little bit. And then I think, yeah, like I think when you underexposed with color, it's a thing. Lenses had a huge part in it. I really do agree. And then in the grade, like the luts that Gary Kern made for us, our colorist, it just kind of, it just, you know, we add a little bit of gray and then he like the way that he skewed colors, I think, brought on its own, you know, blues when cyan and like, I don't know, there was just something about it. And I wonder if there's something in that as well. So yeah, but yeah, I'm not a big fan of, of, I think it starts with exposure. I think like, I find that like when you give cameras. too much sometimes it feels like it doesn't have to work so it's like pristine and clean if that makes sense yeah yeah there was one i can't remember i really i've mentioned this like three four times now

but in the in the show in general but someone had mentioned that they felt like light should always feel like it had to fight its way onto the set yeah like you can always tell if there's just a just like a you know a six by here but if it's like if it's bounced against something through that and and physically through some other stuff, that feels natural. And I was like, that's a good point. Yeah, it's a good way of putting it that has to fight it because, yeah, I agree.

Like, I remember one of my favorite things that I, what I saw was like, I have to do this. It's called ghosting. It's like when you had, like, at the time it was more keynote flows they were working with, but then, you know, like basically an LED

that's like whatever, four by spot size. And then you drape and then you point it down and then you drape like grid or muz or whatever over it. and then it becomes this ghost of itself and that's the key so it's like it's just non-specular and so it's just this like passive almost light so yeah

that's good oh hello is that what you're doing right now yeah I can't I don't know if I'm gonna I'll watch your cat sorry I'll send you a photo of it later send me your photo's brilliant yeah so see it works doesn't it it does and you know what's funny

I had a before like because it's just this tiny little light and it's at like 5% because it's just, yeah, that's the other thing. Again, it's like it's about, yeah, yes. But I had for the longest time, because it's just like this is, all this is like all my, my color grading suite, my editor, you know, there's like three monitors over here. And then this is just like a tiny little section right in the corner that I do the podcast and it's just straight back to work. But I had this massive soft box hanging off this thing. And it was just so annoying to always be there.

Yeah. And then I just, you know, part took in some Los Angeles gardening and came. up with that and I didn't know it had a name. Yeah, well, it's something I picked up in Sydney. Some DPs that I used to help actually, like, they taught me that. And the beauty of it is that like, especially when you're coming up and you have a lot of money, like that doesn't have to be an actual silk. Like that can be just like a bed sheet, you know.

Yeah, shower curtain. Yeah, shower curtain. There you go. Yeah. And so like, and then you just play with the levels on the, because again, like on the lights, you don't need, like I was saying earlier, you don't need it to be going at 100. Like you're doing years of like, well, 5% you said or something. Yeah, something like that, fire.

So the heavier you go with the diff, you got more range within the light to give you more. And I think that for me, which is why I think like I loved so much of like what Bradford Young does. It's like it doesn't feel like it's lit. You know, it just looks like. It just exists. I'm also a very big fan, which is why I think it worked probably in hindsight with this because it was so much darkness. I'm a big fan of negative fill. Like I love, you know, I love like, and big.

So like, you know, always having like a, you know, at least an eight by round. But I did, though, I will say the team on this one, like I taught myself that sometimes that you should just let the world be, like bounce the color of the world back. I tried that actually when I was working with, I was shooting some stuff for Dan Staffa Clark, our third block DP. and he was like, I think, I don't even know if he used bounce. I think he just, like he wanted the key light, you know, to be bounce in the key, but let the world take care of the rest. And I think for exterior, I think that really is quite nice. Like sometimes you do go, oh, like, go backwards.

But yeah, but when it's inside, like you get to control that. And so you get to control how much, how much what the fill does for you, because then you can make that key light even less specular, so see whatever you want to call it, based on how much contrast there is too. And so, you know, if you move that flag around,

that'll help too. I heard somebody, I think this might have been a YouTube video, but it really did stick with me. They were like, I can't even remember the context of why they said this, but the gist of it was like, oh, if you want to know

if you should bounce or diffuse something. Yes. Daylight should be bounced and at nighttime it should be diffused because during the day the sun comes in and at night it's lanterns. Yeah, right. I like that way of thinking about it. Right? Yeah. Yeah, I really like that.

I will also add that like I also think that when you're diffusing, I'm like fill the frame. I'm constantly asking, like I'm constantly standing in front of the light. Because I usually stand where the light's meant to be hitting. So poor actors, I'll always like to sort of be in their way. And I'll often ask my team to walk back the light so that I no longer feel the face of the beam of it in the diffusion. Because that softens, that wraps it around. That creates a different quality too. That's digressing from what you were saying.

But yeah, but it's, I'm going to, yeah, that's smart. You're smart. Right. That's very cool. The other one that I can't that was semi similar but not really related was if you're going to fake this one might be common. They were talking about faking light coming in a window. Yeah. It might have been for a night scene.

But basically they had like a kino or a stere tube up top, right? And that was the actual key. But then they had a frenel or source four or something. And they just basically clamped it to the outside of the wind. window at the top and just spiked it into the into the window sill. Yeah. Skipping it. So it's sold. Mm-hmm. And then the actual light was the keynote. And I was like, that's... That's smart. That's smart. Yeah. That is smart. Because usually there's like the light coming through the window and then the keynote or the steer or whatever is like wrapping it around or extending it.

But that's, yeah. I love a bit of a skip. So I'm going to, I'm going to steal that one. That's good. Yeah. Is that it does? Go ahead. I was just going to say I'm doing a lot more skipping recently Both emotionally and physically Both good for the help Both good for the heart Yeah yeah But it's true it's sort of like where it bounces

That like then you do create that Randomness Like what film is so wonderful for Like the grain Like when you put grain in pose You have to be very careful like what you do in the highlights Who the shadows whatever Because like in film it would just be

random. So it's the same with that, like when you bounce light, then you let the light do what it's supposed to do. It's like when you're trying to get that highlight, rather than forcing it, but it's like when you try to get that highlight on a wall, you know, it's always like, if you just go straight with a like with a 2K or a source four, it's like you just a feel a bit theatrical. Whereas like if you bounce it in some glass or some water or just even bounce like it just, it'll, you know, well, glass is always better. But yeah, so anyway, I don't. Yeah. You know, the, the idea of, uh, this is an interesting segue.

So I always, whenever I have DPs from this show on, I always have to talk about it because for years and years, it was my favorite show. It's actually seven years ago, the show that me and my girlfriend initially bonded over. Okay. And that is Doctor Who. And the episode you did of the more recent season

is an interesting thing to discuss. because it all takes, for the most part, takes place just in that barbershop. Yes, it sure does. And I was interested to know, A, like, how do you end up getting that gig? But then also, because you were in that one space, and it is relatively colorful, it's similar to Belfast in that way where it's... But, like, what were the choices you were making in that barbershop to make it feel, you know, I don't know if... The show's been out. Like, I was like, do I ruin it?

you know, like a spaceship or a prison or, you know. Yeah, yes. I mean, so the question is, how did I do it to do that? Because the whole point was to try and make it look like it wasn't one of those, you know? And so that like even when, and I think that was a magic cover that even when you are like open the door. Is that from your side? Yeah, I hope that's, this is why I don't normally do them on Mondays because there's gardeners. Oh, bless you made.

Uh, hold on. Can I change this while it's... I got to turn on noise reduction. Is there settings? Good thing that was at the beginning of a question. Yeah, that's where we're going to go with you. Come on. I don't know.

Settings. Found it. All right, we'll do that. I might sound a little different, but... All right. Can you still hear that guy? No, I can no longer hear. Okay, perfect.

Good. So ask me the question again. That would be good because then I can, if you're remembering. Well, I was basically just, how did you end up getting tied into the Doctor Who universe and also, you know, trying to light that room in a way that just made it feel normal, but also knowing where it was going, like, where there instances where you were like, oh, should we, should we, should we. sort of visually lead the audience a little bit or like suggest things or or you know all that. Yeah, it's a good question. There's a lot of conversations about that. How I got involved?

They reached out for a meeting and luckily I got it. So it was a very lovely Christmas. It was like the last, I think it was like just the day before Christmas in 2023 at the end of the writer's strike year. So I was very grateful for that to go through. And that was amazing. But yeah, there were a lot of conversations about what we need to see out those windows. Because there is that thing like that you don't want to, you're not meant to give it away. You know, it's a bit of a obsessive.

It's a bit of exploration, concealment that leads. Well, it's a little mystery, I guess. As you say, it's very similar to Belfast in that respect. But yeah, so it was ultimately, we wanted to always feel like, it was captured in this moment and in this place. And like culturally, such an important episode and trying to retain the authenticity, as close as we can,

because obviously if you were shooting in an actual Lagos barbershop, you would be able to fit all those people in there. And that was a big conversation between the production designer and I about him wanting to be authentic and needing to be able to shoot it, especially with all the movement, the director and I talked about. So, but yeah, so I think that idea of like that,

like there's this heat of the sun, there's this dust. You know, our VFX producer was, is from Lagos, and she was showing me all these photos, and it's all just very dusty. So I just really wanted to maintain that. And also, like, color was obviously important,

not just in light, but in the design, because it, like, again, the culture is so colorful. The clothing is also colorful. Like, you know, there's accents of color everywhere. Like the way that they painted the walls. I mean, you know, so I did a lot of testing with like swatches of different paint colors and different like different blues and, you know, and then putting standins and front and then obviously figuring out finding standin that had very similar skin tones because I'm just about black or white. It was about like black skin has different like

some are more blue based, some are more warmer. And so it's like getting that run. because again, all of this was very important. I mean, it's always important to, to render anyone's face correctly, but I think particularly because it's such an Nigerian story. So, yeah, so it was, that was, that was the initial thing and we tested. And I think the idea was that we didn't want to, because the store or the barbershop is abandoned, we didn't want to feel there are people walking outside, you know, so there was, and there, like, there was a retested different kinds of whitewash on walls and, and,

For me, because I knew there was going to be so much movement, both in blocking and camera, initially we talked about these shafts of light coming through the windows, but like, oh, it's just been hell. And also, like, I didn't want the soft, the source of light to be coming only through the windows because we just wanted to feel like the texture of, like, inside and have that controlled as well. So we had we actually had a stereo's in camera, but we, in, like, you can see it in frame. But we actually had a lot of light mats like around that we would move around so that we couldn't control that. I thought that if it was all just coming, like, I think you get the sense that it's mostly lit by window,

but I didn't want it to be like one, you know, all of tons of tracks. Like it's all. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we initially looked to that. We're like, that'd be cool. But then you move people through it and then how do you get everyone's faces lit? And, you know, it was everyone wanted to make sure that, like, it looked right for the, you know, the time slot, the family-friendly time slot, no darkness especially. But again, to your earlier point about, like, what you retain for later, you know, you'd then realize that there's so much more beyond, like, there's a maze and, like, beyond the maze.

And I think that progression into this final location, like, with the tree, it, you, you know, you. you need to give it somewhere to go. So I didn't really want that first bit to have too much darkness. Because when the lights, you know, when everything starts to fall apart and the lights go off, then that gives it more power. And then the kind of going into the depths of the belly of the beast, so to speak, it gave it that kind of that journey as well. So yeah, so there were multifaceted reasons that it always is.

Well, and you know, I've spoken to people who shot like Star Trek shows, for instance, and stuff like that. And I'm always kind of fascinated, especially with a show like Doctor Who that's been going forever and ever and ever. And that there's all kinds of different iterations visually and storytelling, obviously with the actors and stuff. But coming into that, was there, were there any like special considerations for that show in particular that you had to account for? it just kind of like, there's lineage, but it doesn't really matter for what I'm doing. Yeah, that's a really good question because also like this was, um, the, it was a foul episode too. Pardon me?

Like a, it was like a kind of a, it wasn't necessarily part of like the over. It was its own thingy. It's its own thing, which is what's really exciting about Doctor Who is that like, it's an anthology. You know, every episode is a whole new experience adventure, misadventure, whatever you, you know, and a lot of, I mean, he travels in that box, so it gives you opportunity to travel to different worlds and stories. And I think, yeah, and like this was also stepping into a new season of The Doctor, you know, a new look, a new doctor. So Disney was involved, which

created its own world as well. So there was that. I think you step into recognizing that you're going to have, you know, conversations about darkness, like I said earlier, you know, in terms of what time, you know, who's watching, who the audience is. It's a big consideration. But there is, and especially when you have a black doctor, like there's always those kinds of conversations too. But ultimately, I found that that was the exciting thing about being involved with something like this Doctor Who is that it's a new season

and it's a whole new story. So it gives you an opportunity to do something with it or to contribute in a way. But yeah, so luckily, I think that there's like, you know, I knew that, like, say, our execs, like, I did a lot of tests because I wanted to make sure that we were all on the same page as to, like, how bright is bright. Because I understood that, like, bright windows was not something that, you know, some of our execs were attracted to. So, you know, there's things like that. But I didn't feel like we were restrained or that we had to make it look a certain way because of the rest. I mean, you can only shoot the TARDIS one way.

So many ways, yeah. Yeah, no. And this part is white. David Tennant got like this really cool dark orange thing and then they're like shooting gets white I know but I mean look I'll give him this this was built well before I joined but though you didn't have a lot of facade

like it's literally half of you know a facade that you get to shoot in but like they did the lights that could change a little bit of color you know so we had a little bit of leeway and then we were able to like play with a bit of color contrast and the grade and stuff with Garrett Spensley so a company three so it's like you know but again like And there's always, you know, I think it's the showrunner thing, right? There's always a consistent through line on set. So even if camera-wise we're doing something different,

there's always someone that's been there and been carrying the show for years that will always tonally make sure that we're on the right track as well, you know, because we're all guests. But some of these producers have been part of the show before even Disney got involved, you know, and it was like, so it's like, and so I think, They're the people that, you know, that's like, that's what helps keep the through line when people like us still come in with our ideas. You know, the understanding that there's probably a few things that just you can't talk about. But there's been a lot of discussion I've seen online of like, oh, things are, there's a Netflix look.

And what's hilarious to me is no one can agree. I made a Reddit thread about it. I was like, you guys need to tell me what you think this means. because I'm some people were like oh it's you know the classic like high end look and then other people like no it looks like shit and it's washed out

and then other people are like no it's about you know uh shallow depth of field no it's and no one gave me examples everyone I kept saying show me a screenshot of what you're talking about and it was just 500 comments of people telling me I'm dumb and so but I would love

yeah yeah the internet's great But I'd love to know what type of, not, you don't have to get like specific, specific, but what type of notes you get from a Netflix or a Disney when you are making a show for such a large industry? Because I assume like, or even like BDC, I don't know, you probably shot some of something. But the larger companies, like when they have notes, what do those tend to manifest as? Good question. I'm trying to think. So I've done two Disney shows now. And one Netflix show, yes. Yes. One Netflix, two doctors. Because you also have Tenet. That's right. I had to DT was in rivals. Yeah, that's right. I was like, hi, I was on Doctor Whoot. Yeah. Yeah. Look, we, so Netflix's notes are more to be.

begin with that, you know, format was, it was a first and main conversation. Beyond that, they still do when it comes to me. Like 4K versus whatever. Well, like, or two to one versus, you know, an amorphic. Oh, oh, ratio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had, we had a lot of conversations about, we had a bit of back and forth about that. That's not actually even back and forth. It was more that you always, you had to present your case, which is, I appreciate because it like, you don't want to do anything just because it looks cool, you know, like we and we and I shot lots of tests, between anamorphic and spherical, and ultimately you just look and you just go,

this is, you know, ultimately everyone would just agree that anamorphic was funny. Like, and it just worked for the comedy, and I think it was this sort of world building, part of the contribution to the world building. And so that was the most, but again, and then beyond that, I think any conversations that Netflix would have would be more, you know,

above the line, like it didn't reach me. There was no feedback that I, I don't remember hearing any feedback about dailies, you know, like, oh, that this is too dark or that this is whatever. And I think everyone was quite excited for us to, everyone was learning what this beast was becoming, you know, because it was such a dairy girl's mashup of darkness.

Yeah, yeah. Whereas, yeah, with Doctor Who, the feedback was mostly from Russell T. Davis, who's our showrunner. I don't believe, I don't, again, it didn't reach me. And then on rivals, it was always, I guess I'd just been fortunate that's always about like, we've created this world and we want you to use that as your paintbrush. Because like with rivals, it's this like 80s, like sexy, funny, like again, this, well, it's a period piece that I hadn't, haven't played in yet.

but they really wanted to, they loved like that embracing of style that underlined the substance so there was like, you know, flares and like heightened colors and like different kind of movements. So like for us it was actually my director and I kept on asking ourselves, is this rivals enough or is this rivals every day?

So I think if we hadn't been doing that, we would have heard something. But I think that, you know, it was, they're the kind of notes that I got. Again, because I think because over the years, you know, in the darkness is always such a thing that is in the ether that people talk about, you know, but all fame. I maintain it's people's TV's false. That's just me. And streaming bit rates.

People's internet speeds aren't great so then they block up. And so I think as a result of all that, you just sort of often that would be the, that's usually the thing that people are most afraid of. And so for me, it's been about understanding, and we've talked about this a bit so far in terms of the balance of where you put the light and you can play with darkness, or where you put light so that there is information in the sense. Ways to play it so that you can provide a dark scene without it being so,

like without it scaring people, I suppose. And always, I always try to come from, a place of I'm not just a cinematographer who likes to like make things look a certain ways like I'm always like yeah but this underlines what you guys are trying to tell with the story or what you're you know so like I I'm always trying to serve it back in

not like not Trojan horse set but like just try to that's how they can understand what I'm doing is if they can understand that I'm doing it to serve the story and the project so yeah so I maybe tonight at 3am I'll wake up and be like that note we got but I don't remember we haven't been slapped on wrists yet. I hope I'm doing a Netflix, well I'm hoping it still goes ahead, another Netflix show that shall not be named. I'm hoping that will be for a lot.

That's right. I think that's right. Star Wars. Yeah, like I just wink at you this. But yeah, so hopefully, I mean, no, no news. Like we always said, like no news is good news. Although I think once someone said, the one feedback I got from an exec was that like, because it was like, I had this like sunshine coming into this room and whatever. They were like, it's too pretty. I mean, look, I'd rather someone say if something looks too good. Then I can't see anything.

Well, and also that's a fair note depending on the show. Like, you know, you're right. No, this is supposed to be Jason and versus Freddie. Got a little carried away there. Too much Phil. I don't know that I've ever brought too much Phil into it. Yeah. And softway, can you imagine?

Anyway, I digress. Yeah, no, I think, yeah, I mean, that's the other, like, on how to get to heaven, it was like, my director, you know, his feedback would be like, you know, I want more contrast. It should be a little bit more dark, you know, so that's fun when you kind of, because I came off the back of Doctor Who and went pretty much straight into, like I had about a month off. I went straight into have to get to heaven.

So it's like there is that, there is a process of, that I've learned that it even happens to without noticing it, that like you do need to uncouple yourself from the process of the last job because you will see, you'll look for things that the last job needed, but this one, you know, like, you don't have to like be safe,

like, you know, or be, like, you can be a bit weird and you can throw shit that doesn't make sense and you can like let the color make you, you can make people feel rather than just sort of present. And, you know,

and I'm not saying that's what we did with Doctor Who, but it's like, you're always mindful that you didn't want to have too much, you know, it was always that kind of Disney darkness, you know? And whereas with Netflix, it was like, with how to get to heaven, it was like, you know, I actually had to remind myself to like weird it up, you know, and play to the program. And, and, you know, that actually took me a little bit. Like I had, you know, like with my, with my director, it was sometimes him being like, remember we got.

Like, I need to just more contrast plays, you know, like less, less, less, less ambience and stuff like that. So, you know, and it is like, yeah. So that was one of the learning codes for me too, is just to sort of like figure out. out a way to like brush off the last year. Well, and it's funny too, like just speak to the idea of like what makes sense for every show. Going back to the idea of the people on the internet, that seems like regardless of what it is, everyone wants everything to look like seven. Everyone will always bring up Darius, like screenshots of Darius. They're like, why not like this?

And you're like, well, because that was seven. Doctor Who should not look like seven. Oh, man, maybe it should. I would love that I'm not I'm not gonna lie after the Matt Smith arc I was like okay

he's been like in a box for what millions of years or something like that he's got to be furious and then they got what's his face the old guy behind her blanking on his name

I love him he was my favorite one I'm the same I can't remember face their names Peter Capaldi and he was cranky, angry, and

bitter. And I was like, yes, this is what I wanted out of my Dr. cranky, angry, and bitter. Just projecting, ain't you? You all a little bit, but also it just made sense totally. Like, you've been in prison for a million, and then they did it to him again. Yes. And then we got

shooty out of that, which kind of made sense, honestly. Yeah, it's interesting that, like, I have had DPs talk about working on shows where things are quite bright, and they're just like, I'm sorry, but this is a sad scene. Someone died. There needs to be some shadow in here.

Like, come on. And don't give you wrong. Sometimes it's like kind of what we did, now that I say, some of the stuff that we did in Belfast was like you kind of, you counter things, like what, you know, places that are,

the familiar you throw on its head because that tunnel shift is what sort of, kind of keeps everyone on the, the toes. But, you know, so sometimes it is interesting to have a bright scene that is very dark and gloomy, you know, whatever. But like, but yeah, sometimes you're just like, come on, guys, like, this is night. There should be. Yeah. Yeah. It's always when you get, yeah, it's always when you get like a director who's just always looking at the monitor,

like, are we going to see that? Are we going to see that? They're like, are we going to want to see that? I saw this clip of Roger Deacons. He was talking. talking about, or no, no, no, no. Was it Deacons? I don't think it was Dickens. I think it was someone else, but older guy. But he was saying that he knew he had a director that would always do, like, actually wanted it darker.

I would always say, I need it darker. So he had a special director's monitor. Yeah. He had a special director's monitor with just the brightness turned all the way down. It's like, yeah, that's good. Oh, I've heard of TV. That's part of the job is management, people management, you know? Oh, dude.

Yeah, exactly. And like, yeah, I absolutely agree. Yeah. What did Shaneus McGarvey say is like, the job is 90% politics and 10% bladder control. It is a management of expectation and having it back your head going,

I know what we need to give it and what we can do later. But I think it's really good to be questions because I think sometimes you can become well you kind of lose your bravery sometimes when you're thinking about or when you need to feed the image and you have to be kind of technical

and sometimes breaking the image. Like what I was saying earlier about not exposing a certain way or using certain colors that you know like it's I think that that sometimes it is good for someone to go like to remind you what you're looking at to go well actually maybe this isn't the direction

like maybe we do go darker and may or like go to 1280 because I've shot a show entirely in 1280 and daylight as well as as is that the tailings? It was yeah that's right yeah I've got notes I googled

yeah so you Yeah, so I think it's interesting because like there have been, when you said that about the director, there have been moments, and it's up to you as a DP to really balance that out. There have been moments where I would light something in a way where I think is like, I can, safe and I can do that later, you know, as long as I give a thick negative and all that kind of thing. And then someone just goes, no, you know, director will say, no, I want a light off or, you know, it's not, you know. And then you're like, no, it'll be like later.

Like, yeah, but why don't we just do that now? And you're doing it. actually this was so much better than I, you know, we would have done, you know, like, so I think sometimes you, but then again, other times you don't want to be pushed into a place. You're like, I don't know if we can scramble out of here. I'm the only voice of reason. Like I have to make it. But the one for me. The one for me that, no, I love getting question because normally I'm working with people who've done way more than me. I'm usually like the charity hire. So it's like if you're going to tell me that you saw someone else do something, like, I'll do that. But the one that I've. Yeah. But the one that I've. I've. I guess I don't know if I was proud to do it, but I was like, at least I'm not an idiot, was doing, like I said, it'll do a lot of docs. So they're always like, I don't want it to look lit. I want this to look super verite.

So let's just put the subject next to a window. And then I bring in a light and they're like, no, we don't want it lit. And the first couple times I was like, okay. And then then it would, after we got to know each other a little better, I would just put it in. And they'd be like, are you sure? And then I'd just be like, just wait. You know? Because if it just matches and they can't, I had to learn he was worried about,

because he quote doesn't want it to look lit. He was worried that if I was putting in a light, it would look lit. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can ghost the light and it won't look like it's lit. Yeah.

A light doesn't mean it's lit. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think that the management thing, like this is why it's so important to have like

monitors on set that are calibrated yeah and a post pipeline that's managed well because I have had experiences where directors see things like or their editors see something on display that isn't accurate in some shape or form and then there's like red flags raise and you're like

you know if it's just not been it's just you're not looking at what I intended you to see so that's why it's also so important and why direct DP's fight for DITs and you know all that kind of thing I'm in the opposite camp because obviously, Doc, I'm running two cameras and sound and everything, you know. And but I don't, because I'm, we're doing a lot of traveling, so I have to fit everything in my, you know, all these giant cases over here.

And so it's just the on-camera monitor. And the de-squeez is wrong for our anamorphics. So everything looks wrong. And I just have it on regular 709. So what I've started doing is the second we get back from the shoot. like to the hotel, I throw like a few nice things in resolve and give it like a nice grade and send it to them

and be like, see, looks good. Just trust, just, I know it didn't look right on the little tiny little monitor. Yes. Yes. And they like that now they ask, but at first I was doing it to cover my ass. And now they're like, are we going to get stills? I'm like, yeah, okay.

Camel would you care that? No, that, yeah, yeah, managing, yeah, managing expectations and, yeah, what people see is so, oh, crikey. Yeah, people, people can get fired if someone doesn't know what they're looking at. Yeah. Say, I need to let you go because I have to go as well. Oh, I'm so sorry.

No, it's so lovely talking to you. And the show's great and hopefully on this next show, we can have you back. Yeah, I love that. Cool. All right. Enjoy your other one. It's not going to be as fun as this one. No, I don't think so.

But they also had Nat on their show before me. It's just like, we're just like. playing catch up. All right. Go have fun. Bye. Bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan.

If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.