Frame & Reference Podcast - 238: "The Yeti" Cinematographer Joel Froome, ACS NZCS

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

This week on the progr'm we've got Joel Froome, ACZ NZCS talking about his work on the new film The Yeti!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Joel Frome, ACS and ZCS, DP of the Yeti. Enjoy. I've done it. I've done it, like, I wasn't, like, trained in Doc. I'd always been in a narrative, and then I, um, I threw a friend of mine, I shot, like, the New York segment of Morgan Spurlott's,

Morgan Spelladox Rats documentary which was wild and like Morgan's awesome and it was just like he wanted to make a genre documentary which was like such a cool unique idea and just to kind of give those horror images throughout a whole documentary was a challenge

and I just shot the New York segment of it and it was really fun to kind of approach a documentary through like how can we make this as moody and as horror like as possible So through that, I did a film called I Am Human, which is a documentary, but they hired me to do, basically to make it feel like a sci-fi documentary. So it's like, like, how do we make this a sci-fi film? Even though we're dealing with real-life people, we're patient, you know, real patients in hospitals. I had this film inside an active brain surgery for seven hours.

I had to wear like three fanny packs with like anamorphic lenses because I was the only one allowed to be in there and it's like you drop anything like if you drop anything on the floor it's no longer sterile and the brain surgery's over and like who panicked you know

and no strength yeah I'm like yeah so I'm swinging my lenses and pulling my own focus I try to cover everything in this seven hour surgery then you have to take it off because I'd put the lead vest over at one point and put the lenses back on and then three quarters the way through like one of the lens cups fell on the floor

it was like one of those slow motion things and you're just like this poor woman with her brain exposed I've ruined everything and like the hospital he has him just kind of looks and he goes it's fine like she picks it up and puts it in her pocket and I'm like thank you but there was an amazing it was such an amazing experience like to shoot a documentary and to have to do what you'd normally try to do it in a narrative film and do it in the constraints of a documentary like this is a real person

you can't make them do multiple takes of them going up the stairs like she's got Parkinson's and she can barely go up the stairs so so it really was about framing and how we can be if we could get into a whatever room we could before a certain one of the subjects would go into the we to try to light to make it as moody or to make it match as much as possible but when you're in the brain surgeon you can like can we turn off some of these lights you know that it's not going to talk so it's like well how can we how can we still tell this story in a sci-fi way and overall like I think it made me a better simulographic because it was just that way of thinking like this is a sci-fi this is how we wanted to look in a couple of frames or

less can we still convey that throughout the whole film or and going on to other projects afterwards where the narrative one you know when you're trying to approach something it's like this is how you know how we can make it feel and fit the kind of tone to the story you know Yeah, you got an award for that. I did that one and that was amazing. And then I did like the first season of the CNN, Jake Tapper, you know, such a scandal series. But that's kind of my only doc experience and that was, it's great.

I love going back to Doc and it's always an interesting thing to dabble in, in between narrative, especially sometimes for the pace, it's quite nice. You know, like when I just come off like a really big, a really long, pretty tough feature. and when I did the CNN documentary series and it's like, all right, we've got three hours to light and we've got a three-hour interview and you kind of like, all right. And it was just, whether it'd just be me and my AC

would set up the lights as well and then you kind of like, okay, cool. And then you'd like sit in the chair and whether it'd be two cameras or whatnot, you'd kind of, all right, and just get to sit here and like watch the interview for three hours. Like, this is kind of nice, you know? So, yeah, it is nice to get into doc.

I really love doing that in between. but yeah mainly mainly in the narrative world yeah the thing i'm experiencing on that side is they say you'll get like an hour to light it and then the subject shows up 20 minutes early or 30 minutes early and then they're like we got to go and you're like i didn't even the camera still in the back yeah i thought i had more time yeah i mean i think i think that's one of those things it's like it's it's one of the hardest things that happened when all of a sudden your time's cut in half like you ready? I'm like, are you joking? They're like, no. It happens on all

size of films, even when you get on your narrative stuff, it's like, oh, the actor wants to shoot the scene now, like, they're emotionally ready for the scene, and you've just like, just been like lighting for the last half an hour. I thought I had 31 minutes, but like, are we there? We're close? Like, can you be ready in fire? I'm like, because you're not

going to be like, no. Like, sometimes you've got to, you know, I've said before, but I think a lot about cinematography is picking your battles, you know, like is that extra half an hour on this particular scene, um, gonna make or break the overarching thing goes,

like the act of being in the right headspace, the most important thing. It's like, yeah, that's, that's more important. So it's like, you definitely got to pick your battles.

So I think, uh, yeah, documentary helps. Do you, so when you're doing setups on a narrative then, do you start with the big strokes first? Like,

you know, you're 80% or you're 20% getting 80% of the way there kind of thing. Or are you, do you kind of just go with whatever's most efficient first? How do you plan each shot from a like scheduling position? Yeah, I'd usually try and start like with your key. Where's the domain source? Like whether, like if it's something like on the Yeti, which I'm sure we get into, like when you're in a studio, you know, the key coming from outside or is it practicals

and start building up from that. So it's just like, where's the key? Start adding to it. But I really, I'm not a cinematographer that really likes to tinker a ton in between setups. Like if we do the wire, like I love to kind of, you know, you light the space and sort of let it be. And if it's not the most perfect thing for a close up, you know, maybe if you can bring in a little something, but I like to just sort of light the space and try to be as flexible as possible. So you can kind of get in there.

And when we go in for a tighter shot, it's kind of, it matches because it was the same set up as the wired. So like I'm usually like to kind of just go in and keep the continuity there instead of like, oh, you know, we can, sure we can bring in a whole other light source and stuff to get the perfect little ping. But sometimes it's like I just, you know, I like to just keep the consistency and keep a relatively small footprint on some of that stuff. So yeah, I'd say start with whatever the key sources.

and sort of move on from there. Yeah, as you started talking, I was like, that was a dumbass question, honestly. Do you start with your key light? Nah. I just start with a scratch light and see what happens. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes like you just, like if this one work,

you just flick the light switch. I'm like, yep, no. Better start with that. Honestly, now saying that too, though, like, wouldn't it be fun? Oh, no, maybe people would freak out. But I was just thinking, like, wouldn't it be fun if there was some kind of,

of like I guess it when you playground is the best word for it but where you can just like flick lights on and off for a few hours and see what you know you get that in pre-production when you're doing camera tests and stuff sometimes but like I you know there's like software you can do it it's not the same no you know like a consequence-free environment to just turn lights on and off and place some weird places for like a full day would be really valuable it would be really to us Oh, God. Like on a stage? Like, that's what they should do with the empty stages here at like Universal and stuff.

Right? Just set up like a lighting playground for people and rent it out. Yeah. God, what a dream. This would be so nice. I'm going to make some calls. Actually, time to look at, yeah, some tolls. Did I like to walk around with a margarator and just click on light switches on them?

Exactly. You're like, you're like, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be so nice. Yeah.

You know, I was looking at your website and I did notice that, you know, credit to you, there is not everything looks the same, obviously, but there's certainly kind of a signature that you seem to have with at least all the stuff on your portfolio. And I was wondering how your sort of, not upbringing, mentor, you had like some of the best in the business. mentoring you. I was wondering how they shaped your look. I guess not mentoring, but they were with you. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things like when you enter the business and you start, you know, when I first discovered cinematography, like right after high school, like I, you know, you went back and like the first time I'd ever heard of cinematography. It was actually when I was in high school, John Seale went to my high school many years before me. and he won his Oscar and I remember that being like on the front page of the local paper and like that's how first heard of

cinematography and not that that meant anything at the time and then years later when I had done a course and discovered cinematography that it clicked and was like oh there was a guy that went to my high school that did this so I reached out to like the vice principal and it's like do you have that guy's number or do you have any way of getting to him

and you know not really knowing anything at the time or how hard it is to speak to people. But yeah, like Australia's just got such a wonderful group of cinematographers who've come out of there. And I was able to get in touch with John Seale back then and give me my first sort of advice into how to even think about starting in the industry. And so as I started to study cinematography and learn and work on films and, yeah, it's like we had like Andrew Leslie taught us at films.

school a little bit, which is just amazing and very humbling. Because I also remember it was one of our last courses before we graduated. And he was so, he's just such a funny guy. And we're like, so Andrew, like, what's it like out there where, you know, the six or seven of the cinematographers in the class that were about to graduate? Like, what's it like out there? And he's like, I don't know. I'm unemployed. Yeah.

Oh, great. That's really cool. That's really cool. But he was just, you know, he went on to shoot the Hobbit films right after, but that was just his way of being like, you know, it's tough out there and whatnot. But I think there's a sort of humor and a down-to-earth nature and a lot of the Australian cinematographers that kind of came before me

that, you know, you can reach out to them as I, like when I moved to the States in 2011, the former head of cinematography at the Australian Film School, was that way to put me in touch with the likes of Dean Semler and these guys and just kind of ask them questions, which can be hard because it's like a completely different world. Like they haven't tried to look for a job in decades, you know. But they're just so friendly and so like open with their talents.

And I think when it comes to like style of some of these cinematographers that come, that Australian cinematographers, I think like Australia is always known for being able to work with natural light because the light in Australia is just so shit and strong that you kind of forced to like, how do we, how do we do this? It's reverse London. Yeah, right.

Yeah. It's like, I remember when Dion Bebe won the Academy Award for memoirs of a gay show, I just like, the beauty of the Japan, the beautiful Japanese soft son that he created in that. You're like,

never to be seen ever in Australia, you know, it's like, what a great job. But yeah, I think it's, you know, I'm probably going off tangent a bit, but I think there's just a way of getting things done that a lot of the Australian cinematographers did that I really like and the kind of mood and tone that they have in a lot of their work,

like John Seale obviously, but then as I was graduating film school, like Greg Frazier was just starting to really take over the world. And it just, just making such incredible images, you know, but still had, like, I remember seeing some of the short films that he did, like when I worked at Panavision back in the day. Like I met Greg when he was dropping off some gear after shooting, Amherville is short for Jane Campion or something. But, yeah, it's just like even watching those films back then,

there's just like this, the contrast that he works with. I just think it is just so amazing. And, yeah, I think there's just a lot of incredibly talented cinematographers who are also very friendly and very open with their knowledge. So I think trying to take any tips and bits and pieces you can get from them has been very, very great. And I've tried to do as much as possible when you get the chance to talk with these cinematographers, for sure. Yeah. I've found that all the Australian folks that I've spoken to, there does seem to be a very workman-like approach to cinematography that I think a lot of,

almost any other nationality there seems to be a lot more like not all the time obviously but there can be a little bit more of this like well I'm an artiste and then the Australians are like I bang the light through a diffusion yeah exactly and it's like I mean

I think I remember I've seen Greg been asked about that before and he's like well like he's like well I'm Australian like if I say I'm an artist it's like I'm just going to sound like a dickhead you know and it's like you kind of have that sort of like, yeah, like we love what we do, but it's like I don't need to, yeah, we don't openly in the way that we kind of communicate, I think, and like another John Seale story,

because, I mean, you can go on for hours talking to you. Because he really is just such a wonderful, like, he tells a story about one of his first films. I think when he came over to do Witness with Peter Weir and Harrison Ford, I think that was his first, like, US production, and he'd mainly shot in Australia and he'd kind of came over there, there was a shot that they wanted to do at a ground level. And they had said, you know, camera, low angle, wide shot at the ground, and the grips, they look at each other.

They run over the truck. They come back with a bunch of shovels, and they start digging a hole. And, like, they come over with a plank and a sand, and drills and stuff. And John's like, what are you doing? He's like, well, we're going to dig a hole, and you can put a tarp down. You can get in there, and it'll put a plank. And the camera is like, like, just give me a fucking shot bag. And I'm going to, like, a sandbag.

I'm just going to, like, line the ground and get it. and like, oh, okay, yeah, we could do that. And it's like, I think that kind of attitude is, it's kind of how a lot of us started and how, you know, a lot of us still continue through our careers no matter the budget, you know. I think it's definitely part of, in the DNA of Australian cinematographers. You know, you mentioned a few moments ago about, like, the lighting, the sun and all that. And I was wondering if you are able to articulate,

because I don't think I've ever, like, specifically asked, but like what is sort of a representative sample of what that modification looks like? Like if you see an outdoor shot on the beach, what would stand out to as like, oh, an Australian shot that versus like someone from L.A. I think it's finding the balance of like, I mean, diffusion's always such a hard. I mean, even now and everything, you're like, was that diffusion? the right one was it too soft was a too strong and I just think because the sun in Australia is so I mean it's so harsh like when you get back there and you just can't really go outside without

sunglasses in due of the day it's just it's it's so glary and hard so I think it's just more of being how to soften it without it just feel like you've got just a heavy diffusion in front of it like it there's a naturalism and I still I still definitely struggle with it you're trying to trying to make it right. Because I think that's one of the hardest things to do in cinematography is like an exterior daylight sun, but the sun's going to be on someone's face at the wrong time of day and you can't schedule it around from that. But I just think it's being able to control the sun,

but keeping it natural feeling, I think that's something that, because when you have to do it in its absolute hardest, which is like in Australia, I think when you've kind of dealt with that and like, well, I can, if I use this kind of combo of like silk and maybe another frame like that, then I can, I get in the ballpark of it feeling natural without feeling like I've just got all the diffusion in the world knocking down the sun, you know? So I think that's probably, you know. Turns into just a shape.

Yeah. Big soft source is nice except when you're outside. Then it's weird. Yeah. Then it's like that. I don't like that. And then it's just like, no matter how big disorder, it's like, oh, well, that back, you know, down there on the beach. that ground is very hot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't match, be like, I don't know, you know. It's, it's, it's, you know, that's what's, I, uh, this is unrelated to almost everything. But I was watching the new fallout season and there's a shot where Camel Nangiani's talking to, uh, one of the main characters. And they're outside in the desert, right? It's like supposed to be Vegas and our new Vegas. And beating down sun.

and then it cuts to a close up and it's like clearly there's nag on the ground there's nag on the side there's neg on top like they put him in a little box a little black box and only let the sunlight come in from the side and I asked my girlfriend we were watching I just was like did you notice anything she goes no

and I was like fuck incredible direct sunlight to black neg box and nothing didn't even flinch yeah I need to go for a walk I need to walk that one right yeah it's so hard it's so hard But yeah.

It's just crazy what you can get away. I think that's early on. Like, I know I really got stuck up on not just making things match, but just thinking what natural looked like and realizing you can get away with natural but precise. Or like, like stylized but precise. Like there's over,

apparently, I guess what I'm getting at, and this is not a good thesis, but it's like you can overlight and that's bad. But if you take a shit ton of, away, no one flinches. Yeah. You know, extra contrast, everyone goes great.

Yeah. Moody, moody. Yeah. All right. What's the answer? Let's make it moody here, I guess. But yeah, it's, it's, it's the constant struggle, you know. It's like I want to make it.

Your beer doc even looked pretty moody. Yeah. I mean, I always try to make it as, you know, make it as mood, bringing mood. Like, I love contrast. To me, that's what, like, it's like where you can, um, that's where I just, I love contrast in an image and just making an interesting image, no matter what it is, even like the feature I did before the Yeti, which is still in post, they're hopefully coming out later this year.

That was like a coming of age film where we shot in an extremely hot Baltimore, DC area, thing called The Upset of Unrequired, and it's based on a book, and it's really great. but it's like I hadn't, I had done quite a few horror films before then. So it's like, well, okay, this is a coming of age movie with like these late teens, early 20s. I can't like this, like a horror movie, but it's like, you know, have a chair with a gaffer on that one. You're like, I don't want this to look like a hallmark movie. He's like, I was worried you're going to, you know, not there's anything wrong with that for what they do, but it's like, I just, I just can't, I don't think I can do a very high key thing and I'm always going to

try and shape or bring in contrast as much as I can kind of get away with. That still suits the tone of the film. Like I really don't try to have a stamp on anything. But as long as it's an interesting image to me, and a contrast image, I'll keep trying to make it as contrasting, moody and interesting. And cool. Sorry, I'm just looking at notes. that reminds me of I had or very early on in the show I had a guy named Fernando Arguez on a phenomenal guy really nice run into him a bunch of times after he's so kind but he was he was on here to talk about this movie called the princess switch three which is like a very I don't think it's actually hallmark but it is that right and then I was and I'm going through his history and like the thing he shot right before that was swamp thing

and I was like, how did you make Swamp thing? And then the director said, no, I want him to shoot the Hallmark movie. And he was great at both. They both looked phenomenal. I was like, God, if only, I can't do that. I mean, that's what, I mean, that's what, you know, I think is just good cinematography is, right? I think it's when it's like you have the ability to bring a tone or whatever to a story. But it's like you can be a chameleon.

Like, I think some of the best cinematography is a true chameleon. I remember, like, in Darius Conju's book, like, I love Darius. He spoke about how, like, he thinks you can, you know, not have fake other. Yeah, like, he's amazing. But he went from, like, I remember if it was before or after 7, he went and did Sealing Beauty and then he did a Woody Allen film, and then he wouldn't do that. And it's just like, you put those three films in front of most people

and you're never going to know it was the same person. And like, it's so admirable. And it's like, as much, you know, I, as much as I, as much as I try and strive to give everything a different look, it's, you know, it can be hard because we've all got taste and what we like, but it's like,

because I'm like, it's such, just absolute masters of the craft, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I actually just bought, now my brain's going in three places at once.

I just bought the new cinematographers, that book. Oh, yeah, I've got it. Oh, I've got one. So I,

it's been on my like Amazon list for a while. I was like, how does this thing not dropped from like $200? And then I found that it's just out of print. And so I found a guy on eBay selling it for 70. And I was like, oh, fine. And really, I just want it for that Darius chunk to see like, oh, what else did he talk about? But obviously it's 60. I'm not going to have.

It's got like Lancet cord and stuff either who hasn't shot for. Oh, yeah. It's like the new stuff. They need an updated one. I would love to see her. I'll tell you what. after 240 episodes of this show, I was like, I've got a book.

I just don't know how to write it. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great idea. Give it to an editor. Like, you, here's the best. Because that's the thing, too. It's not about, like, obviously,

you want to hear from your Darius colonies and stuff, right? But there's so many times there's people that don't have, like, that big of a name that give the most valuable advice. Yeah. And it's like, it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to compress it all into, I guess it'd have to be topics. Yeah, for sure. I think, I mean, it's such an interesting industry. I think cinematographers in general, I mean, some can be so guarded of their knowledge of,

if like everyone's trying to take their jobs and stuff like that. And it's just like, I do think overall it's like there is, there is, even though there's been such a rollercoaster of an industry, there is a lot of the top people are all the ones that are wanting to, that are more than happy to share what field do they use or what they did or what they're, trick tips and tricks and it's just like there really is a lot of knowledge sharing from wonderful people and I think we're we're lucky for that for sure yeah I mean I remember phrase is he said yeah yeah sorry what you're gonna say no I was just saying like how you know there's so many you know emerging cinematographer isn't great timetrotterers out there now it's like since that book that it's just doing such incredible things and it's like yeah and everyone's people being so helpful and and

sharing how they did things you know like I mean yeah like how many episodes. it's the podcast you've done with such wonderfully and talented people, it's just like, yeah, there really is a lot of people wanting to share and help others grow as cinematography. That's amazing. Yeah, and then I was going to say,

speaking of Frazier, he put out that Dune 2 lighting book on the ASC website, I think. Yeah. Like, what a treat that is. It's not very often you get a, like, full on lighting plots with BTS. Yeah. There's like a hundred pages of it.

I gotta get that. I can, I'll send you a link. But what's phenomenal about that is it really, it kind of gave me a little bit of piece. Because if you, obviously it's like thousands of fixtures, right? And you're just like this. This is impossible. But if you kind of like squint, you know, fuzz it out a little bit,

it really just is key light, side light. Or like, you know, top light, side light, man. It's just, it's just bigger. Yeah. I was like, all right, that's nice. Scaled up. Yeah. No, it's so true.

I worked on years ago, I was in the camera department, like, truckloader on Australia and with Mandy Walker. The movie Australia? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The movie Australia, yeah. And it's just like, and that was a wild challenge. Like, speaking of, like, Day Exceriors, like, Mandy's a absolute master of day exterior.

And then, like, they did the thing where they did the mediums and close-ups, like on the studio and the wards out on the stage. But, yeah, like, I remember running up to set and just being like, this is like so amazing and it's just like there's lights everywhere and it's just this, I would never know how to approach something like this and then you go decades later

and you kind of, a much scaled out version you understand the concepts and like where they were trying to expose for and where they're, you know, and how they expose it's like, you know, I think it doesn't have to be the most intimidating thing in the world to want to achieve what some of these people

achieve, you know. Yeah. Well, and it's kind of related to what you were saying earlier about when we were talking about like, you know, pivoting between like horror and Hallmark or whatever. It's like you said something along the lines of that you don't want to necessarily put a stamp on it, but there are things that you're comfortable with and like that's your taste. But also I think there's an element of safety. Right. If you know it works, you're going to do that as opposed to like, oh, this is a new genre. Like I think people like Darius are probably a little bit. feel a little bit more, oh, this is a whole new thing. I guess I'm going to learn cinematography over again. At least that's the vibe I get from when he talks about stuff. He's like, I'm looking at new paintings, I'm looking at new books, I'm looking at new photos. I'm reinventing the wheel for myself.

Yeah. You know. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, I think, I mean, you try and like, I think I'm at a stage now where I've done, I don't even know, five horror films now maybe, four or five horror films. And it is something it's like, you know, interior night horror, you're like, okay, like, how do we do this and not be the, like,

I don't want to have the same, the exact same tone and the exact same, but we do have like just how dark is dark, like how do you do moonlight, you know, changes from project to project. So it is a internal challenge and I guess as you get to their level and that kind of experience, it's like how do you, how can you make it feel like a completely different looking film from something you've done previously? I think that has been a fun challenge as I've done a number of different horror films to try to make them all seem quite different

from each other but there's definitely, you know, tendencies that you bring that you're like, I still like that kind of coloured moonlight or that like a silver moonlight suits this more than I don't want to do an extremely blue moonlight or something like that. Even though you could do something like that and it look completely different than the previous film

you like, I've, not today. Not on this one. You know, watching the, when this episode comes out, the movie will be available online, but it isn't right now. So I have not seen. But, bro, that happens a lot at like South Biden stuff. They'll be like, do you want to interview this person who's got the film at Sal? I'm like, yeah, send me a screener. And they're like, no.

Like, what do you want me to do then? I've heard train is like, it's so hard to get. It's like you can come to a city and come to a screening here maybe or, you know, if that's lucky thing about. living in LA is they do tend to have it somewhere. There's going to be one somewhere, you know, so that is nice. But watching the trailer for it, there, you know, there's something that I thought that was kind of fun. And I don't know if, you know, which came first, chicken or the egg. But the sort of fonts and graphics and stuff that they used to package the trailer was really well done.

But also the way that you shot it does feel kind of. graphic in that way that I thought was like some of the two were married really well and did you guys go into shooting it assuming you were kind of aiming for that pulp look or was that just the

art department getting excited? I mean I think or not art department but graphics yeah I mean no we had a very particular look in mind of how he wanted how he wanted to shoot it I mean when I kind of randomly came

got a call from the line producer who asked if I was interested and, you know, they sent over the script and when I interviewed with the producers and directors and stuff, I think I got the script like that morning or the night before, so I didn't have a ton of time to process at all. But it was just like, for me, it's such a sort of throwback to old classics and stuff like that. So it's like I kind of just thought of like I need to find a way to pitch how I think, like, my initial vision of the film is without, getting a full chance to speak to the directors or whether it's what they want.

And the way I pitched it was, I think the thing shot by Robert Richardson for the interiors with wayless money and definitely less talent, you know, because I'm not going to try and compare myself with Robert Richardson, you know. It's like, I'm not kidding myself, you know, but it's like, I just wanted, it's like, but that's kind of how I picture it. And I think with the directors, they've resonated to them. It's like, yeah, it's a thrower, like, films like the thing. It's like these classic horror, you know, with their anamorphic,

but it's set in the, with the kind of color to them that is a bit of a throwback. And so, yeah, so that's kind of how we kind of, the initial look that I pitched them. But, you know, yeah, down the road when, like, between the final look of the film and the, like, of the trailer, It's not that the main thing is like, is really just like grain balancing and stuff. Like I try to shoot where it's like, we can show some stills to some people if you need to be like, this is what we're doing. And be like, oh, we don't have to put a big disclaimer down the bottom saying, not graded. You know, it's going to be a big different looking film. Like, I think the main, the main things is just like, you know, the grain.

And obviously we tweaked a lot when we went into posts. but it is not too similar. So I think they had quite a lot of time even before we'll finish with the color on it to kind of plan how they were going to market it and how they did that. But yeah, no, I thought in the trailer they did such a good job with the

yeah, the graphics and just matching the overall tone of everything. It was really cool. The... So you said the line producer called you randomly. How did they come around to you? Well, it's... How they find it?

Yeah. Well, they found me through the rental house. See, I like, as I mentioned, it might have been forced out a bit like I, so I live in Buffalo, which is, yeah, again, not where Australians have naturally found. It's not a natural habitat. I'm freezing. I need to go for a swim and it's just like, yeah. So I live in Buffalo. I moved up here like a decade ago, and I've never worked up in Buffalo, really. I've always traveled elsewhere for work. I've just never gotten into the Buffalo scene, you know, I've done a few. I've done a few. few small projects here and there that I never finished or whatnot. But there was one I was going to do when I met the rental house up here, Expressway. We're great, I know Ben, who works as Expressway, and he had spoken to the line producer. So I think when chatting with the line producer, when they're talking about, there's this film coming to town, but they think they really want to hire local cinematographers. So it's like, and they're like, oh, cool, they, I don't think. They realized it was in Buffalo.

I think it says it on my website, but they just wasn't known for being a Buffalo-based cinematographer. So, yeah, so luckily, the guys that rent-of-house passed on to the line producer to put me forward to get me an interview for the shoot. So that was very kind of out of nowhere and fun. Yeah, the relationship with the rental house is so important. I was so lucky for a decade to have a rental house right next to my house called Stray Angel.

I've heard of them yet. Yeah. And they just closed recently. And it sucks for me because, A, if I want to rent any, like, it was the classic,

like, your friends with them long enough, you know, if I only need a couple things, they're not going to make me go sign a whole, you know, sign away my life as an insurance company. Yeah,

they're just like, just take it and don't break it, you know. Yeah, and now I got to go to Keslo, which is obviously the best, best in the world, but they're the best in the world. So no line producer, or yeah, no one's getting my name to a line producer at Keslo. Maybe it's stray, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, Ty, I guess that's a,

yeah, I was very, very lucky with that, but it's, um, yeah, it's so tough, like, you develop relationships with these friend of houses and, and it was also, like, developing the look of the film, like we, we knew we wanted, the director, we really wanted to shoot anamorphic, that we were shooting on the LF because we really needed to have narrow depth of field because we're like the sound stage that we shot in the whole thing shot on the stage and it's like it's not very big and we knew like the brilliant productions I know could only build 18 or 20 trees or something like that so we knew we just we had to have fall off like we just couldn't afford to see the wall that's a foot next to the tree

you know like the Frank the production is under building another set at the other end of the studio. So it's like we knew we wanted an amorphic lot for the, for the, you know, kind of like the thing, but also for the fall off. So, but they didn't have, um, Expressway, didn't have a lot of the options that we wanted. And Will, one of the directors was very particular about lenses that he, he wanted. And like, I think they had originally looked, so in a Panavision about trying to look at, um, some of the Panitas and it's like, lovely, you know, but they had just gotten so busy and anamorphic, you can't, they're like, yeah, you can't, say anamorphic, unfortunately, without having a budget of a few million dollars, you know.

Right. So it's it should to look elsewhere. So it's like, yeah, I had the relationship. We wanted to go with the rental house in Buffalo. I definitely did, especially knowing that they had put my name forward and help and spoken about that stuff. But I just think, like, I had also a good relationship with Ari and I went down to New York and did a bunch of tests.

And yeah, so it was a big, you know, you want to keep relationship with rental houses and especially like I used to work at Panavision back in the day in, in Sydney. But luckily, the way it all kind of worked out, like we did want to shoot, they didn't want to shoot on the, well, the Orion's, the Atlas, like we all didn't,

they didn't like the flares of the original Orion's, but they liked the Mercury's quite a lot. But this was just, like this was in January, February of 25, so they just started to set out the B sets, you know? So they only had the A set, and it was like, we just don't think we can shoot the whole movie on these three lenses. It's like, sorry, mine that 100 is enormous too.

Yeah, yeah. So, well, we may have to go to a different rental house. We're like, we really want to go local or go, all this stuff. But luckily, I have a friend that works at CVP in the UK and put me in touch with Alice, and they were able to look up where they were in the list and be like, you're actually due to be shipped out pretty soon. Like, really great if you could possibly send them out very soon. it was very soon.

They're like, okay. So then like two days later, the rental house was like, yeah, we got the full set, you know, we got the second set of the, the mercuries and we're like, oh, Alice, I love you. That was really, really clutch. So we're able to get it all, everything local. But, you know, because you want to develop these relationship with these rental houses, no matter how big or small, it's like it is important. But, you know, then putting grateful.

I'm very grateful. Yeah. And when I said 100, I meant the Orion is massive. The mercury is very compact. I actually know Dan Cain's like, we're friendly. And he's always been like, he'll get it done. Whatever you need. He'll make it happen, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. This new, this new, um, the two lens that they credit. Oh, yeah. He was like, oh, you're lovely. Yeah, I always wonder like, and this is not about Atlas specifically, But I always wonder when companies come out with, you know, okay, it covers over 100, you know, 100 millimeters. Like, did you just rehouse like a Mamea lens and then maybe do some extra judging?

China's out here making 100 super 35 and full frame lenses a day. And they're all very optically clear, no breathing, great budget options. Cool. But no one's making, you know, optics that cover IMAX or greater unless you. you go medium format. So again, I don't, I don't know if Atlas is rehousing lenses or whatever, but I'd be fascinated to know if they are making it, like, that's going to fly around the lens industry pretty fast.

And our other company is going to immediately start spooling up large format or whatever you want to, you know, large format. Although now that I think about it, you know, you know, photography, right? Yeah. like plate photography or whatever the actual large format eight by 10 or whatever it is those lenses are tiny they're like pancake lenses but it's obviously really far away from them for sure yeah that yeah that's so true i wonder huh i don't know enough about lenses to speculate again this is where my my brain starts to get like ah yeah i don't know i don't know

of the ins and outs of optics and stuff. Like I used to, I remember when I worked at Panavision going up to Grant, who was the head lens sectician there. At the time, it was just like, it was so fascinating how they could, you know, and that was really before they got into the whole detuning and customizing stuff. And it's just like, you see, you know, you read everything from everyone going out to Dan at Panavision in LA, just like there's stuff that you could kind of do everything. It's so fascinating.

Like, I wish I understood more about it. You know, like, I wish I. But I think that's one of the things as a cinematographer. It's like you don't have to know every technical thing. I think it's really important to stress. And that's one of, like, when I was at the Australian film school, like Jan Kenny was a head of cinematography, who's a number of people who have been on show also studied under Jan.

And she, like, one of the first days because she knew I'd come from Padavision and another one of the guys I went to school with had come from another rental house and she was worried there would be technicians at Harton one, she was like, it's an art, it's an art not a science, it's an art not a science, so I just really get that through your head. I was like, I'm fine, yeah, like that's great,

that's better for me, you know, so it's like, knowing my brain is not the most technical, like some people, so I think it's, yeah, I think it's important for people to understand that it isn't art more than a science, but obviously having understanding of this stuff is great. But when you do find your limits of technology and stuff, there are other smart people to be able to help you along the way. And if you're trying to get a little, like there was a film I was doing years ago,

and a couple of years ago, and we were getting some custom tunings done at Ari. And it was amazing because it's just like it was all, I talked to them in tone and talk to them about how like, you know, the feeling in, you know, your like shadows and that kind of stuff. And it wasn't, I didn't have to go in there and tell them exactly about technical stuff because that's their job, you know, like they are incredible technicians. So I was able to, and that really put me at ease a lot because I was able to just kind of just talking, pictures and images and just feelings of how we wanted them to work. And it was an amazing experience. until, you know, a day before gear checkout, they got too busy and they're like,

we've got to take those lenses, you've got to find something else. Yeah. That was tough. Yeah, coming up with a whole new look of the movie with a day or so to do some wild tests and all sorts of stuff was fun, but I think it worked out for the best.

But, no, it was a really cool process to realize, like, I don't need to know the ins and out of what they're doing to the lens to be able to communicate the, what I knew you wanted to feel. I think, too, the only, like, technical stuff you have to know, like have to know is the, I guess, like, the rules around the edges. You know, what actually is underexposed or clipped, you know, like what, you know, what, what, what's the close focus on this lens if you have a call for like a, you know, do I need a diopter, that kind of shit. But yeah, I don't. I answer a lot of camera questions of the students.

I just put up a video talking about how like, basically about the zone system. And I was like, you don't need a fancy new camera with dual-based ISO. You just need to understand where you're placing your exposure. And like the second question was, but which camera should I buy? Because I want the,

and I'm like, did you watch the thing or did you just see me post it and then go answer the question, ask the question anyway. You can get away to so much. You know, I think it's just, Yeah. No, and I think like for me, I remember like when I was at film school, about halfway through the year the red one came out.

And the school was just like everything from here and out is on this. And we'd just been shooting all of our. Lucky man. Yeah, like all of our exercises have been, you know, 16 and 35 and film. And I'd come from shooting film. I shot my application for the film school on 35 when I asked the camera. since they came in from a job to have their short ends and get a camera from Panavision for the weekend

and just shoot a little thing. So, like, my knowledge was purely film, and it was just like, but then all of a sudden for them to be like, this is the red one, we're shooting everything on this, all of a sudden I saw buttons and chaos and people started, like, I didn't even really know progress or any, like, any of these, like, codex.

Like, I didn't really know codex because I just, I'd never experienced it before. But some of the guys in my class were talking about it, I'm just like, oh, shit, like I'm, I'm, I'm, lost already. But then I just realized like, no, you just approach it all. Like if you approach it as you would approach shooting film, you know, this is like where your exposure is that, you know, you meet, like I still use a meter, I still use a contrast viewer, just because I love the process of that. And it's like if you, if you're able to, to, you know, approach shooting digital,

especially in the early days as a film camera and still now, it's like you're going to be okay. you know, if you understand where your exposure is at, you'll be okay and, you know, and light your eye and meter and don't really worry what's going on until you step behind the monitor. Like I did, I taught a course once, and there was like a one of the kids I were doing a scene, they're lighting the scene. They were like, I was asking them, were you ready to shoot? And they're like, yep, like, and they looked at the monitor and it was two, three stops

out of exposed. And they're like, oh, and they just went and, you know, set the stop. It's like, yeah, but like, how did you get there? You know, I think there's a lot of people that skip that step of, like, just because you can see an accurate image on the monitor as close. Like, how did you get there? I think, you know, as long as you sort of understand exposure and that kind of stuff. For me, anyway, that's been my kind of saving grace, surviving, like, technical.

I'm still a light meter person as well. And also, A, honestly, for speed, right? Because I don't have to get the camera and the monitor and everything up, before I start lighting, because again, I'm doing it all my damn self. But B, it's selfish, but because there's no monitor, I'm lighting and the questions, hey, is this going to look? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, versus them chimping the monitor and going, hey, what about this?

Like, it's not ready. Yeah. No, exactly. And it's also like, it's one of those things. Like, sometimes your days can just be so intense. Like, the amount of times I've, you know, if any directors are watching this I've worked with, like, but sometimes like, I just want a moment of Zen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a question, question, question. And it's just like, I'm just going to walk out in the middle of the set. I'm going to get my meter out and just like, do this for like a minute. Yeah. Just to have a bit of quiet. And no one's, because no one's going to come. I'm just like, yeah. It's like, I just want a moment of Zen.

It's like it's really great. Like, you know, sometimes you have to just take that moment of, no one's going to talk to me for this one minute while I process my thoughts because sometimes it can just get so overwhelming when your days are so hectic. especially like on indie films and the schedules are nuts it's like you need time to process sometimes that we don't don't get yeah well there's that there's that uh sort of classic roger deacon's story where he's talking i can't remember what filming he's talking about but he uh didn't know what to do so he just went to the camera and put his eye in the piece and just panicked

for a while and and what's funny is it's great but also i remember the first I think it was like the Alexa X tier whatever it was whenever the Alexa made the actual glass like ground glass viewing viewfinder for the Alexa they built that for Roger not because of that story but because he wanted it

yeah yeah yeah for a while there it was an option that you could rent because they made a handful of them I guess but I was like just it's funny to think of like his little his little panic tube they built it just for him you know I think trademark trademarked Right not. Every single time needs a panic tube in the kit, you know?

100%. I did want to ask though, because I know obviously what a gaffer's glass is, but I was introduced recently to the contrast glass or whatever. And by introduced, I mean, I saw it. I thought it was a gaffer thing, you know. But how are you using that? Like, what is that? How are, is it just an ND filter?

It's just, I mean, it's a certain, like, I had the Tiffin, up until recently, had the, it's like there was a Tiffin one and a two, and that was a certain amount of, it's like, I think the one was below 400 ASA and above was, and the two was above 400 ASA. And it's just like, you know, you put it over your eye for a second. It just kind of shows your relationship of your shadows and highlights. And it's just like, and you don't hold on your eye for long because you don't want your eye to adjust to it.

So it's just a really, like having, like how I said, like I love contrast and just being, like, throughout an image, creating a contrasty image all around. And like I just like I like it as a way of just sort of just knowing as overall when you just trip everything back like how is my relationship overall. Like when just looking at certain objects or the scene or an actor, you can kind of see, you know, how is my relationship with the highlights and shadows. And I have found a very beneficial even, you know, I work with one guy, a sound guy who always used to be like, he called my hair, see? like when I'll be doing it I'll be doing it like looking at the actor and you see in the back of this

yes here he's talking old pilot you know making fun of me for now yeah yeah yeah I'm solving a crime you know but no I yeah it's an old tool that I just find like I like to you know you can look at a monitor and you can look at through the view photo

but it's like you know it's a strip back borderline sort of black and white feeling thing of just like these are my highlights these are my shadows how does that feel throughout this this scene a location on an actor's face. And when I meter, a lot of times I meet her is just the overall sort of like contrast ratios

of like the actor to make sure we're saying consistent through the whole film. So you've kind of done that by eye. Like I do a lot of that by eye and then just double check. And if like, I need to come up on that light a little bit just because, just to get the right ratios. But yeah, that's kind of how I sort of approach lighting and stuff like that. a lot of it's just by eye and contrast viewer and sort of without sitting by the monitor the whole time and instruct. You know, it's kind of how I sort of learned and have stuck with it, even if I do look like a weird old person with trying to solve a crime, you know.

I'll have to look into that because I definitely, as I've progressed my career, I'm going more back to, I guess, the film technique. I learned on 16. We didn't get the red until I was in college. So we were all on DVXs. And I just remember having gone from 16 to the DVX as a child basically, you know, I was 18 or whatever. And being all like,

this isn't how we did it and felt, you know, such a dickhead. But it just even having a light meter was like huge. Again, like you're saying, like just being able to suss out ratios. Because,

you know, we weren't doing that. We were standing as far back as you. could, zooming all the way in, you know, and then you got that little Tota light and then you just blasted your friend with it. They melted. It's Tota though. Yeah. I got a kick. Now you can get it. Bro, I hated those things so much. And then you couldn't even pack them away. They just had to sit there and burn bugs for like three hours while they cooled down. Some of those, some of those lights. Yeah, I haven't used any of those in a while. I used to use where I first, the first film school was at,

I think we had a couple of redheads, like redhead or blondie and an Adido kit. I used a Dito kit so much. I still throw a Dito kit on a truck just, it's like, because sometimes all my brain just goes, you could use a Dito here for that little slash of the tongues, a bit of warmth or something like that. And it's like, oh man, I don't know if people still using those. Probably not. I'm sure there's way better things these days, but it's just like I, you know, they're fun. They were fun.

Yeah. Did you on the Yeti, you mentioned it was all, I completely spaced. I was going to ask this. You'd mentioned that it was all on a stage and shit. Were you, did you kind of even going further back to your idea of keeping it all simple? Did you basically like pre-light that stage and then just bringing things to modify or were you tackling challenges every setup? That would have been awesome.

What would have loved that. Great. So like the sound stage, like they've just built a big new sound stage in Buffalo, but they've mainly doing, I think many sort of hallmarked type movies there. So film works where we shot is great. and they're lovely, but they're not proper film stages. Like, I think the first big one, they had their Quiet Place film, part two, Quiet Place Part Two came through,

but they don't have, like, they don't have any overhead rigs really to do anything. So there's one little section that has a small amount of pipe rigged above the set, but that covered not nearly enough for us to do that. So we were pretty much solely on the ground. or solely we were able to I mean we had such a small lighting package

which was like we had to fight for everything pretty hard and I get you know it's independent film because like we I think we only had like two sky panels

and they were just basically doing the psych like the backdrop just kind of the ambient there like the gaffer when I first met the gaffer and we kind of went

to submit to the gear list He's like, this is a lot. And production will kind of like, yeah, this is like, you've got to cut some stuff and we do some cuts. And once we got down to our final list, he was like, I just did a short film with like a kit that's like quite a lot bigger than this. And we're, you know, set in the wilderness and the remote Alaska wilderness

and we're doing it with this. And it's like, yeah, yeah, we're going to, we'll make it work. And, you know, I think it's, it was a challenge. But I think having a minimal kit, we kind of had a plan on like a, we wanted to be sort of single source moonlight as much as possible. We're in the woods. Like, Nosferatu had just come out a few weeks before. Shout out, Sharon.

Yeah. And it's just like, oh, this is so beautiful. And like, one of my memories of the film was we're one of the directors. We'd just be in the middle of anything. And you're just here in the corner, now we are neighbors. It would just be like, just like why we're talking about something else. He's just quoting it. But no, it was great.

but it's just such beautiful work but there was the one one shot that really resonated was the like when it's the big driveway and it's just a big moon and that that's just this single source that's so lovely and so it's like that

that really resonated with kind of how he wanted to have moonlight feel but then going back and looking at some of the films like the thing and it was always a bit it was a bit more stylized than what I would do now this like with all these new lights and the complete naturalism like

it's like I always aim for the naturalist approach as they say but I knew this I had to be a little bit just a little bit brighter or not even brighter in some points but a little bit glossier in a way so like my lot was a little bit darker that I had on my monitor just so if I if I thought it was you know so I wouldn't push it too far it's like oh I'd be tempted to be like let's go down a bit you know let's make it a bit darker and it's like no no we this is the world we need to live in like just so I wasn't tempted. But yeah, so we mainly had, we were able to get like a, rather than be more like an articulating arm.

And we had like a, what was it, the 600 C, I think, the aperture, like our main mood light. Occasionally, I think once or twice we put an M18 on there. We only used a couple of times just because as the film progresses, we got a lot more haze and so sometimes to cut through it, we really needed something stronger. And then we had an airlight. That was our main. It was like one of those inflatable sort of balloon.

It was like a white air light. Like a finemat or whatever. Yeah. I think the brand was air light. Yeah, I think the brand was air light. But, and that was kind of like our general, that was on a big like combo that we can kind of maneuver around. Sometimes we would put that.

We'd kind of switch whether that or the strong moonlight source was on the articulating arm or we had a max menace as well. and then I might have like a little light mat for a bit of a catch or a feel type thing. And it was like that was pretty much it, you know, and we would sort of move around a little bit. Once we were done shooting one segment of the forest, it's like, well, now I've got to try and shoot slightly different direction and make it look like a completely different part of the forest.

So we'd kind of, yeah, so I'd try to mix them up a little bit and kind of mix a match to make it not feel that it was the same, we're in the same part of the woods because, like when I said, I can't remember if we had 18 or 20 trees and we weren't able to move them after every scene because like by then the film like the snow mats were hammered shit like for Franklin like just please don't do any close looks with the ground like I'm trying Frank like I'm really trying

I know we've been on this for three weeks either you know or 18 I think we shop for 18 or 19 days and that's a pretty quick clip yeah I think we were 19 days yeah so and um yeah So we're trying to move the different key sources as opposed to the other, like the moonlights just to try and make it feel like a different part of the forest if it was the same tree.

Until we moved to it completely flip and shoot back the other direction. But we couldn't move the background like our psych because that was just too, we just couldn't do that. So that's where we needed the lens fall off. So we didn't see them building the other sets back there or, you know, video village just because we just didn't, it wasn't a massive studio. So it was certainly a challenge for sure. Yeah. When you do something like that, do you find, like, there are plenty of instances where I enjoy having options removed from me because I'm the kind of person that will spiral out with too many options and like not take action, you know?

Like if, because I'll just think like, what's the most optimum way to do this? And I won't just make a choice. Whereas if you only have like one light, you're like, well, I know what to do with this. Yeah. Did you find that type of thing coming around? Or did you find constantly like, oh, if only you just had another, you know, another thing over here, another thing over, or did you lean into it? Right. So, like, very attack. My dog's trying to get through the door. If you can hear that.

Oh, same. My cats do that shit all the time. I couldn't hear that. No, the, um, no, I like the, I like, I don't want to say, like, I like the many ones of having a small kid. But it's like, when I broke it down, Inspector the government about what we could do with and what, like, the budget let us do. It's like, yeah, if we had have had a ton more long. lights. I don't think I would have done it differently because it's like when you sat back and looked at it being like, we need this to be dark because we don't have a fall off. It's like, that's what we're going to do? And what's adding more lights going to do for that? You know, like I put a bunch of lights and I'm going to put an ND and you know, it's like it didn't really need it. So it's like having that strip back. But I've always kind of liked really trying to not have a massive kit for everything. Like I've found that. And for young cinematographer,

It's like if you get, you know, if you're pitching for a job or if you can speak to someone about a job, if you know what you can use on a job and say you don't need to get the five-ton truck, you can get a van. Like, that's great. And production are going to be like, oh, they just saved us a good amount of money. Like I can, you know, that's great. And to be honest, that's kind of how you can get more jobs is when you can be good and fast and save production money.

Like that wasn't going back to a John Seale story again. He told us that when they were shooting Poseidon, I think. it was. They, they budgeted like a week to shoot this scene of them running through the sinking boat and he was just like a week they cut a hole in that wall

cut a hole in that wall, cut a hole in that wall, give us some waterproof kinos and they threw them in there and they shot it in like a day and a half and he's like, I'll never have to ask for a job again because it's like I just save them all. And it's like it's, you've got to understand that it's like the boat was sinking

and it's fast cut quick stuff and it's Like, is it perfect? No, but is it efficient and does it work? Yes. And did it, you know, help production be able to keep moving and not go over budget and not anything that stuff? Like it was, you know, so I feel like doing that, like, there was a job I did in the weeds any years ago that the director, but previously, like, the budget fell apart because I think they needed two, the DPA they weren't before, needed like two full trucks and like, okay and we're doing a similar it was like a period film

pretty similar style and like my package could fit in a trunk of a car you know it was like we don't need a time of mine's a matte case yeah right so it's like I like me know I think you can do it you can do a lot with

with little and I think even as budgets get better it doesn't hurt like I was rather if I had to fight I knew if I had to fight for more lighting we would never get the the articulating crane that was just for speed was so necessary. And it's just like I said, like pick your battles. And like to me, I knew we could get by with,

as long as we had a good soft moon source, a few options for harder moonlight and a few fill and just your general lights. Like I knew would be okay to get it done and to sell the illusion of our forest to make it the right tone without being like, shit, I wish I had more. lights but I mean we did have to get like when we we did switch to um later in the film it switches to be like um they the directors really wanted it to to lose moonlight like once we get

close to the edd in it becomes like these big flames and then it just like they sent a reference there was like from the revenant there was a show in the reverend where it was just like blackness and all it was like the flames and it's like that's what they wanted the tone shift to be at a certain once they light these big flames when they're almost about to kind of catch the yeti or whatnot So it's like, well, there it's like, I find flames are always so tricky with LEDs. Like it's getting better and better of it. It's one of those constant battles. And I'm sure.

It never looks realistic. Exactly. So like I want at bare minimum, like the LEDs to be just ever so slight ambient, you know? So and that was another thing I'd done before. And I think I read in American cinematographer or heard so that Yaron Blaski had done in Nostrato. I just asked for a mirror board, you know, get mirror boards. So I could put like a, so it's just a hard mirror source. And like, because we did have, you know, the flame bars there and stuff like that.

So I could put a flame relatively close to where I was there and get the mirror to be our big extending to use that to extend our firelight to use real firelight. You know, because it's like you can't beat the real thing. So it's like just being sort of resourceful. But that was one of the things I could ask like, can we get some mirror boards please? And the production were like, no, we can't. And it's like, that's the rental house level, we'll, we'll throw this one. in thank you and it's like thank you very much you appreciate it you know

it's just finding the you know find the battles especially when you don't have an endless budget of where you want to put the money and I think you know it comes with the experience but I do think you know making smart decisions on being able to work with less is definitely beneficial to

being able to get yeses on the lenses you want or the you know all that kind of stuff because it's all you know it's kind of all correlated you know yeah the one less hard lesson I had to learn was, uh, I was in the, you know, I was in the mode of wanting to save money exactly like you said, because then that means I get hired again. And, uh, you know, I'm bringing all my own equipment for the most part, but we did need to rent stuff. And it was like two gigs in a row

that were just killing me. Because I was, I like didn't have enough support. Didn't, you know, I'm hand holding everything basically whenever we're on the move, big heavy rigs, didn't have the right amount of lights. And my producer, who's a friend of mine pulled me aside. He's like, you know, you can ask for stuff. I was like, what do you mean? Oh, I fucked this up on a feature too. I didn't ask for enough on.

I was a second unit on a feature. And I didn't realize that I had, I was allowed to ask for stuff. That's funny. I need an easy rig. You can say that. Like, yes, save production money, but you can say, I need an easy rig.

And nine times I have time, they'll be like, why? And you go, because if you want the shot to be steady for three hours, I need help. And they'll be like, okay. you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right? I mean, it definitely, I mean, it kind of heard, and we had those, like, and you have

the battles and you have, like, the ones, like, it's, it's every film happens no matter what the budget. Like, you're going to have the conversations when you're like, we want this, and like, why? And then, like, they give you a yes or a no, and if it's a no, that's just kind of how it is. Like, on, you know, on this, we had a B camera, another mini LF, but we knew we couldn't use it that often because, again, the set, we just couldn't get in for a second, a very different

angle all the time, so we use it a lot of kind of action and stuff and maybe some interiors and whatnot. But we had to, we had to tether that B camera. Like, we had to run a B&C through this, the woods, the poor, like, camera team running through the time, because we're just like, we please get another, you know, Terodec receiver and they're like, sorry, no, I'm like, so that's kind of where we knew you are with the, like, the budget. And it's like, okay, you know, we'll make it work but it's like when they're like we need to go faster it's like well if we really need to go faster we really need the terror deck and if you if you're saying no to that it's like it's all these decisions like I'm not asking it for it to sit on my car and have fun

with it you know like we you do want these things for to help everyone's lives you know be easier but it was one of those things like we we we had to tetherby camera and it was um we're a challenge you know when they got a yeti and stilts and and all these you know, trees and whatnot. It was definitely a challenge, but it's like you're just got to, you know, pick your balance and all, or many of them.

It's the good, what is it, the good, good fast cheat triangle. You're allowed to pick two. Yeah. Just slide around on that, you know? No, right. Yeah.

Honestly, thinking, like, it is kind of a joke, but like thinking about that little triangle has helped me formulate arguments for when I do need something or where we, you know, because exactly like you're saying you're like, I know we don't have a budget but if we get the Teradec

we can work a lot faster maybe hack a day off the schedule and that'll save us that money and then they go, oh, okay, all right, cool, you know. Yeah. If that's the conversation, I made up that conversation,

but yeah, yeah, it's nice thing to think about. Yeah, and they were, I mean, the production really wanted a B camera the whole time because they wanted us to be able to shoot two camera and we were like,

it's going to be impossible to shoot, definitely to shoot two cameras all the time because we just, we just don't have those angles in, in, as it is. But it's also like, if we're, if everything's tight and you're trying to balance everything,

you're trying to be smart with, you know, crew and they're like what, you know, how many crew we have. But then I had to figure out, well, if you want a B camera the whole time,

well, we're not going to have a whole second camera team sitting around while we, until we can use this. So it's like, uh, Aaron Gatti, my first AC on it, who I've worked with a bunch, is awesome.

But occasionally he turns the table and makes me shoot music videos and he direct sometimes just for a bit of fun. So there's another focus puller I'd work with on his little projects for a bit of fun. And you can pull focus, but Aaron was like, let's get Tristan on his second AC. So we know, like, I had faith in him. So when we do get that camera out, we can bump up the second AC to be first to first AC on that without having to have a whole other camera team. And we had a second second, Carolyn who could just kind of service both cameras in that

aspect. So it's because it's like, well, we just, I know we want a second camera. It would be great to have a whole second camera if we could, but we can't, it's just like we don't want to put money in the, in the wrong places. So I think it's, you know, it's just important to kind of, I don't know, figure out which, yeah, where you can, one of the most important sort of places to put your, you know, energy and pre in those conversations. Yeah.

A hundred percent agree. And it just sucks that I, it took me this long to figure out how to have them. Right. Yeah. But, you know, I was, I spent 10 years doing mostly corporate stuff and music videos where I was doing all the work. So I wasn't really, I didn't have conversations I have, you know, so is what it is. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. I'm, again, when this comes out, people will have seen the film.

but I'm excited to watch it next week. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, if you have any questions, even out, you know, just shoot us a message, you know. It was fun. It was a challenge to do and, you know, I've got to give, I mean, the cast are great. It was a really, it was a really fun. Phenomenal cast. Holy hell.

And it's also, I've got to give a special shout out to Jim Cummings, who's, you know, indie legend, just such a legend. But he would, like, he would do some shots and he would have his, you know, flashlight and you just kind of ping the lens. And afterward, you would just wink at me. like like thanks jimmy got me got some really nice players for me it was like oh yeah like he was he was fantastic no just such a great cast

and like William Sadler it's you know then Gordon Barrington and and Brittany Allen who's just been in the pit recently yeah it's a really and everyone else it was a really cool cast

and a fun challenge and you know it's a good old throwback to how movies used to be and all practical yeties and creatures and you know yeah it's fun when you get to

even if you don't have a budget, it's fun when you do get to make it. Yeah. It had to feel good. Oh, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It did feel good to get out of the smoke,

though. We were in that high. I was finding fake snow in my jeans and, like, in my shoes for months afterwards. It's like, it's all fake snow. It's all like little bits of plastic and all sorts. Yeah, it was great, but I'm sure it wasn't great for the health. Well, it was nice to get outside once we wrapped, you know, for sure.

The lungs are cooked, but the heart is full. Exactly. Exactly. But we did it. We did it. Awesome, man. Well, I'll definitely stay in touch and love to have you back next time you got some else to yap about. Yeah, man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me like I said. I love your work and it's, yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. Appreciate it. All right. Take care, man. See you, mate. Oh, Matthew. Frame and Reference is an Albot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan.

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