Frame & Reference Podcast - 241: "Margo's Got Money Troubles" Cinematographer Tari Segal, ASC

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Tari Segal is back, and this time she's got a sweet new shiny "ASC" after her name! This week we're talking about her work on the new Apple TV+ show "Margo's Got Money Troubles". Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Welcome to this, episode 241 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Terry Siegel, ASC, DP of Margo's Got Money Troubles. Enjoy it. You, you know, between last year and now, you got into the ASC. I did. I did. I actually got into the AC at the very beginning of Margo. Oh, cool.

Yeah. What's that process like? because I've spoken to a few, like, recent at that moment, ASC members. And it does feel like they're just like, someone said I was cool and now I'm here. Oh, it was, I mean, it definitely was a long process. You know, there are things you can't speak about. But, like, you know, you can't really invite yourself. You know, you get invited.

And it happens all behind the scenes. And, you know, you don't even know if that's happening. And I had some really great sponsors that were behind me and, you know, the process itself of putting your footage together and trying to present why you should, you know, belong. And then that months go by and you hear about it. And if it happens and the whole organization gets to vote on and you being part of them. And I, it was really interesting that, um, of how emotional was for me. I guess I didn't really think it would be, you know, you're like, oh, you're just so busy. You get so busy and work and everything.

You're like, yeah, cool. ASC, I know. There's some, you know, it's a dream to be part of it. But when you're in the room and you kind of just get a moment to look back at your career and everything it took to get there and all the sacrifices and stuff. And it actually really got to me in the moment. And then you go in the room and you see all these. amazing cinematographers there wanting to talk to you about your work.

And it was very inspiring to get back into like that original passionate love that you have for cinematography. And it's really an amazing sort of brotherhood. I guess you would brotherhood, sisterhood, one hood? I don't know. Yeah. It's a brotherhood, really. I mean, that's how it feels because, you know, and the camaraderie that comes with it.

It's just incredible. Yeah. The wonderful experience. Well, and I imagine, well, and aside from even just being, you know, gratifying, I imagine that there is an element of validation, like just simply just validation of like, oh, like, before before it's not just the ASC you know that's the other three letter organizations um where before that you're uh just kind of a person making stuff and then now it's like oh i'm actually a dp now like yeah it's the only recognition that does that you're hoping that like yeah what i'm doing is so legit

and you're working on all these projects tv movies whatever but like you get those three letters behind your name and it really for me it may I don't know, but I can't speak for every person, but for me, it really was this moment of like, oh, that that dream that I had wanted, I did it. I'm doing it. You know, I am a cinematographer. I mean, I sort of knew it, but now it's like in the eyes of peers. That was really great. I think that that's the big thing too, right? Is it's like now you get put, you know, I feel like I'm not at any of these levels, so I'm completely guessing. But like you get like a. an agent or whatever. And then you're like, oh, now people are seeing my work because it's being shown or bitted for whatever that process is like. And then now it's like, oh, uh, uh, Darius Conj, might know who I am. It's, it's crazy.

Yeah. You're just walking around and Ed Locke was there, you know, and, you know, and you're just talking to all these cats. And, and it's just, they're just, everyone's just so welcoming. Yeah. Does, does it come with like a phone book? like now you're allowed to call these people and ask. I've got a shoot coming up.

It comes with a number and you can get in touch with that number that they will put you in touch with, you know, anyone in the clubhouse. That's awesome. It's there for everyone to kind of, I mean, to take to heart the messages of, you know, excellency and cinematography. And we really does want to try and keep that going and keep this idea that we have of being creative behind a lens and telling stories. at the forefront of, you know, filmmaking still, not let it fall aside and just be reproduced easily. Yeah. That there is artistic, creative talent behind what we do.

Yeah. When's the last time that you, like, consciously sought out a form of, like, cinematography education, you know, like buying a book or, or, like, because obviously we're always learning and growing, but like just went like, I, there's a book I should go by or like a movie that has a good special features or something. Maybe currently I bought Deakin's reflections when it came out. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And that was, yeah, I'm always seeking how to do differently, you know. I think I also find one of the things I enjoy about my work is I'm always trying to do something different than the last time and do things I haven't done before. And especially like, you know, Margo was one thing. But, I mean, I'm currently on a show now, presumed innocent season two. And I, you know, was really trying to push this kind of, a certain kind of lighting. And so that's why I was looking up, Deakin spoke, to look for some inspiration of his approach and stuff.

Because, yeah, there were some things I wanted to try. Yeah, well now you can just call him. I know. I still haven't done, I haven't talked to him like, yeah, I'm still a little. You know, it's just, it's, you're star-struck by these people. And the fact that they're like, you're, you know, that one degree away now, you can come up with. Hey, hey, dude, how are you doing? Well, if it, if it's any, uh, uh, ease on your mind having done 240 of these episodes, that most DPs aren't very, uh, even,

the biggest ones are like, someone wants to talk to me? It's really incredible. It's really, I mean, it's just a bunch of really excited geeks in the room. Like, if you go to the awards,

I mean, everyone is just so happy for each other and wants to know, like, you know, everything you're doing. I feel like that's kind of the same. I know we talked about music last time,

but like it is kind of the same thing with members of a band. I feel like drummers don't get jealous of each other, for instance, or whatever. And the singers maybe, you know, because they're the face of it. Yes, but no, you're absolutely right. And they're like, oh, they want to hear how you riffed on something. I mean, maybe that's guitar.

But yeah. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. The, so you said that Margo came straight off the back of Chinatown? Uh, no. Or is the same writer? It's the same writer.

I had done Long Bright River in between. I think that was, I did Long Bright River in between. And so I had done Interior Chinatown with Eva Anderson. She was one of the kosher runners of that. And she had recommended me to the Margot execs because she was also the kosher runner. And she goes, I got the perfect person for you. And one interview, and that was pretty much in their little circle or, yeah, it was a tight circle of, of, of, these creators.

And so that was a connection. And it was so much fun to work with her game because it was a similar experience. And I don't think that I would have, I don't know how to put that. Like, what we did in Margo or what I did in Margo is really, like, I'm using a lot of things that I had experienced on Interior Chinatown in so far as like really pushing the camera to be as connected to the actor as possible and try and

think of new in different ways and be super creative and out of the box. I mean interior opened the door to that for me and Margot really was a place to exercise a lot of that. Yeah in the what was the

pre-producing the show with? Carl Hersey. Oh, I know him. Yeah. He's cool. You know we went to I went to school together. Did you? We went to Columbia, different years.

I'm a little older. Yeah, but in our crew, a lot of our crew was Columbia people, which was really fun. That's phenomenal. So we all kind of, we really jelled together. We were kind of like a Chicago crew in L.A. Well, what sucks is you just pronouncing his name means that I pronounced it wrong in his intro when he had an episode. Did you say Hearst? Yeah.

I said that forever until someone corrected me. He never corrected me, but he's so kind. He's so sweet. Very nice guy. Well, that's cool. But talks me about the pre-production process between you two and, you know, especially like production design and the director. And what was that like?

Did you have a ton of time? I did have a ton of time because we were hired pretty much at the same time. And we had the same ideas for the show, which was uncanny. We met up and hung out and just talking about it. And, you know, he started the show with Dervla. And Dervla is pretty much, like, she brought so much style into the show. She's amazing to work with. And she is a force.

And she will work everything. And she pushes you to, like, in the best ways to, like, Bring it. Nothing is too crazy or wild. Let's see what you've got. And I think, so we kind of kept it open and freeing to take this style and move it where it needed to be. So, you know, the idea of lighting styles and how the camera would move, it was a conversation to be had as we knew more about the story. That was I totally blinked on the first part of your question It was just production Like just pre-production in general And production design

Yes pre-production So The thing about The show is it was There was a lot of planning that went involved And that went into the Each episode Except we did leave room

for, you know, what could evolve with the actors and the talent and everything like that. But everything was very intentional. But we tried to make it look a bit effortless and a bit found. That was kind of the idea. But we had to start with something very, like a rigid plan pretty much and work it from there. And the production designer is Richard Bloom. Do you know him? No.

No, you don't. This is the second, third time I've worked with him. Yeah. We did hunters together. Okay. And then we did this one together. And I'm on a show right now with him. And he's pretty amazing.

He can take, like, any set in an environment. He just brings so many authentic details into it. You know, we really wanted it to feel like Fullerton, California. Even with the backdrop, it's just so great at bringing everything. And like the apartment that we built is a replica of an actual apartment complex in fuller, and that we would shoot exteriors for, and they'd walk in and would go in there. And so there was a lot of planning involved on what we would see and what more we needed. I think originally we had this apartment and we had outside the front door, this one area,

and we had to actually build more apartments on the other side because we wanted to keep shooting more and more out there. and we have little, we have windows and everything on the other side, like, you know, where there's lamps and TVs going on outside the window. So it's always alive. And so that was pretty involved. And, yeah, it was, pre-production was all about the details. Yeah. Did you have any, like, touchstones that you, that you were referencing, like, other films or TV shows? or was it all kind of just coming from the material?

You know, we didn't have a lot of specific references. Mostly like photography and moments of like, you know, being young and being with Margo as a character. So we reference a lot of close-ups, actually, a lot of still photography. And because the inserts or the close-ups had to tell stories. They couldn't just be quick throwaway shots. It had to be something that was telling a story is why we went there.

We tried not to overshoot and really just stay with the character. And the camera changes perspective. And sometimes we're very close with her and she's driving us back. And we're in these wide close ups on her. And she takes us on this journey into her car and listening to music. and then sometimes when her world is just a bit more anxiety-filled and confused, we really step away and we start to use some longer lenses. I mean, that said, we never went longer than like a 60 or 75-m-mill.

I mean, the show plays very wide because we wanted the environments to be so much part of the story. Yeah. Yeah, I noticed that there's a lot. The camera movement specifically is very precise. It is very wincical and very specific and executed to land where it needs to land. Yeah. Was there anything on interior, like a lesson you learned on interior that you brought to this show? Because interior was pretty involved.

Interior was built. I think one of things was not limiting the stage for the, for the actors, the talent with lighting. So the lighting approach. You mean like physically? Physically. You know,

you really wanted to create a broad world for them because it was a very physical performance. But it's not without its challenges to do that. I mean, the lighting style has a naturalism to it, but it's not realism. Realism perhaps has a bit more harshness and grittiness to it.

Or contrast, maybe. Yeah, more contrast and moodiness. And this one wanted to feel very natural. Like these things exist. This lighting exists, but still be flattering and not be sourcey. Like, it didn't want to look false. And that's not always easy to do

when you're lighting all of these different actors and actresses. You know, you have mission. Michelle next to Elle and you have Nick Offerman next to, you know, Nicole Kidman and you're trying to create this wide space. And so that's where a lot of the planning comes in and hiding lights where we needed to and still giving the camera freedom to go around. Yeah. So that was challenging. and looking back, I'll watch stuff and I'll go, I have no idea how we did that. You're so in the moment and so kind of on it and instinctual about it all.

And then you look back and you're like, wow, I don't think I could reproduce that. So that's interesting. Well, also, you guys are in quite a few locations. Oh, yeah. And keeping the look consistent between, you know, the apartment and then like a wrestling ring and then a I almost said lawyer room,

courtroom. Oh, wow, yes. I mean, you're talking about some big swings that came for hats.

Yeah. Talking about how, like, what was the sort of guide rails, I guess, to try to make everything feel like

it was in the same show. You know, it's just one of those things that I think when you shoot a lot, you just kind of like, no, you know,

when you've got, You know the contrast because your eye knows the contrast. And of course there were times in the show when we went, you know, a little bit more moody and stuff on purpose. I mean, that's the reason why this show has this look to it so that you could drop into these, you know, more contrasty, darker moments. And it would really pop to you and really feel like, oh, my God, this is a, you know, this is really sad and really dark here.

And it was just a fun way, fun for us, even though it was kind of emotional. So like be able to drop into these spots or go up and go expressionistic and be super colorful and when she's dancing and everything. But as, you know, like you said, most of the show lives in this one world. And so like, for example, the wrestling ring, you know, we scouted all these convention halls and we found this one and it was empty. It's two floors. It's empty. and we had to build it in two days. And then we had like...

Two days. Like, yeah, because, you know, the money to hold the place and to get all the crew to rig it, we had two days to build it out. And we had a day and a half to shoot it. And, you know, we had these huge skylights. And, oh, my God, this... I mean, it was the perfect place for it. But we all look at it like, oh, my God, it's so...

much work. We have to build a wrestling ring. We have to like build all this stuff. We, the producers let us go to a wrestling match. They sent us to something like a into a dome and it was madness. It was madness. And the amount, the way people dressed with, you know, all these little booths and stuff they had, the lighting, I didn't realize there was so much money in the wrestling world for just the show. So we had to, you know, we want, again, authenticity was so important to the, you know, the, creators to like make everything feel as real as possible real people real real environments so we challenged ourselves to do it with art department and everything and and we built all these little chaos we built this ring it didn't want

you know and in and in true convention world it's not a very moody stylized space when you go to these things it's kind of ugly lighting so you know I took that and try to make it more pleasing and create a color temperature that was like a bit more consistent. And one of the things we had to do is they had these big triangle skylights, huge. And we had to do custom diffusion frames for them above just to have consistency of light over two days because, you know, at that time it was partly cloudy one day, perfectly sunny or full clouds, you know, in Pasadena. So we had to do something like that. And on the rooftop, we had like 18Ks lined up and waiting for when we had to bring in some extra daylight.

And then I had like a cloud balloon over the wrestling ring to create a consistency. And we had like all of these movers and can lights that were all on, you know, we could dim up or dim down so we wouldn't get camera shadow on the actors. You know, we only had a limited time with Nicole in the ring. doing stunts, who's a, by the way, Nicole Kidman, super surprising. I wasn't sure what to expect having this big movie star on this TV show. And she is, again, you just don't want to limit them. You know, you think, you know, you're going to have to set up this key light and everything, and she's going to play to that area and everything.

She wants to go everywhere. She wants to look there. She wants to be free. She wants to get up in the ring. She wanted to do a lot of stuff. And we're like, okay, great, let's do it. And I had to, you know, we basically had an arsenal of tools like quick little fill lights, quick little eye lights that we would have, you know, on small arms and stuff just to raise up high into the ring and go where we need them while still being able to give at least 180 degrees of movement and not get camera shadow.

And fill it in a way that the contrast level was the show. You know, so yeah, it was. And then a day and a half later, it was over. And you were just like, get it. Do we get a break after this? No. All right. That was like the beginning.

You're just crossing your fingers the whole time. Just like, you have a poker face as a T.P. You have just a poker face. Like, this is great, guys. Everything's working out good. And inside you're like sweating. Like, I hope I have the level. I need from every light, you know. It's amazing to get that reflections book, you know,

and reading about Deacan's and like he's like adding up his foot candles for his, you know, big arc light out in the distance and where it's going to be 20 feet later. And here it's pretty much like I know with this light, I'm going to have what I need. You know, you're just working on like instincts and having to, you can't, you don't have that kind of timing to be as meticulous with the planning. So you kind of just have the tools you need and go with it. Yeah, I've been reading a lot of the old like cinematography books, a lot of interview books, you know, Masters of Light and at reflections over here

and painting the light and all those. They all have light in the title. And one thing that I've noticed has come up a bunch is that that comprehensive. that you're speaking of, like how everyone, you know, you might get hired because you're good. You are hired because you're good. That's okay. But then there's this whole other part where you, it's not even about management because I used to ask everyone to come through here about managing the team. And that pretty much just comes down to being good with communication and what you need and being nice. But then there's the whole like not showing people that you're scared. You're not allowed to. No one's allowed to be nervous. Yeah, I know.

You can't be like, you know, one foot out the door, you know. You have to go all in with your ideas. How do you, not how do you be confident, but I guess it's kind of a wild question, but like what's the stress management techniques? Because of course,

no one is going into any film or television show feeling like this, I got it. I know. I know. I mean, it's all like you're, you're constantly, I mean, for me, right? You're constantly in your head about everything. And you go home to wondering if you did the best you could, you know, and that you're going to see the day when you have to face it.

I mean, that's always the thing. People don't realize, like, you know, producers and directors and everyone like, oh, let's go faster and let's shoot this and like, well, let's just, you know, this is fine. It's going to be great. And you're like, cool, and you're fighting for quality and you're fighting for the story, but you also have to get the schedule. But you know, like, six months from now, you're going to have to watch this in the color correction.

And you're going to have to face it with these decisions you make. So it's now or never, you know, and that's the biggest thing is knowing that you're going to have to answer to all of this stuff later, whatever they put up against you. So do, you know, do your best. And sometimes I'll do it. And, you know, later I'll look at it and I go, yeah, I wish we did that better. But, you know, I have no regrets about it because I knew it was the best decision at the time. And that's why you have to be so present and know the decision you're making and what it's going to be, what the, you know, what it's worth in the end.

And I definitely, you know, and I use terms a little bit from like military stuff because of, you know, We talked about this, I think, about I was an ROTC in high school and I loved it and I really wanted to go into it. And I learned how to be a good leader because you can't be a good leader without being a good follower is what they teach you. And really, it's you are to be given that opportunity to lead a crew. You have to steer them, steer them into the unknown onto a path towards success. and the only way that could do that is to have confidence in you that you're giving them a direction that they can follow and they can do their best work that way.

And it's just part of the job that you have to hold all the stress and anxiety and questioning whether it's the right move. That's what you're there for is to weigh all the options and take the responsibility and make the decision. So there's a lot of not showing people all the stuff going on and get them to feel like they're moving forward because it'll stall people. If you're unsure, other people get unsure and other people are like trying to help, you know. And sometimes, you know, obviously the whole process is collaborative.

I work with my ACs, I have my gaffers, my operators, and I like their opinions. and we'll stand there and we'll talk about what it is we want to do. But I'm talking more about the idea of like the decision has been made. We're on this side of the line. We're going in this, you know, we're shooting. This is the approach we're taking to it. And this is, we're going forward here. You know, these are the tools we brought to the show and it's all we have.

And we're going to make the most of it, you know, because we didn't plan to bring anything more. And so you're taking all of that and you're going forward with it. And you just got to do. it, dredge through the mud and get through it. And then at the end of the day, you can look at it and have that cigarette and be like, oh my God, that's over with. No one knew. I was sweating bullets. Yeah. Yeah. Now, speaking of books, that was one of the earlier things that I discovered was, like, some of the, like, military leadership books were incredibly helpful to running a set. Because it's a very relatively similar, you know, there's a.

a leadership structure and stuff and just as you're saying leading people into a battle type thing. It works really well and I think it creates a lot of loyalty and it also creates a lot of ownership. That's the big one. There's a guy, Jockle Will and an extreme ownership book. That was real helpful because it's like even if even if it's not your fault quote unquote like taking ownership like I immediately thinking like how could I have communicated that better so that they did what I needed versus going like, how did you not read my mind or whatever, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I've also learned how to communicate with my operators better through the years because I also have operated a lot. And again, for me, the idea of leadership, you know what

everyone's job is because you need to know what you're asking people to do, not create magic, but to do something that they, that could be, you know, successful. And even now, like, there's sometimes when, you know, the director would be like, oh, they didn't do the thing. And I'm just like, it's just because we have to communicate our needs, you know. And, you know, I've done things where I've just said, you know, I'll describe the goal of the camera first and really just try and give motivations of why we're doing this and where we're headed with the character and what this is for. And it's interesting how you can just give those sorts of ideas and plant them. into operators' heads and give them permission to go with their instincts on that, and they open up, you know, and, you know, that's, that is, you know, giving up, um, you know, operating and,

and, and, and handing that over to someone who's specializing in that and you, you give them those ideas and tools. I mean, that is directing them and empowering people. And I think you get the best of people that way in that kind of leadership. Yeah. Yeah. Empowering people to bring their artistry.

I can't remember when this kind of like clicked for me, but I was talking to someone about it. But the idea of like even the grips are artists in their own. Like no one really gets into this industry trying to paint by numbers. You know, they have their own creation.

And the second, you grab them by the, you know, both ears and steer their head like, nope, knees go like that and then like that and then like that, you know, you rob them of that agency and then they, they won't do their best work. So you never really get the shot you need because so much, as you know, is connecting with the performance because the performance is going to be different in a way like jazz, which I know we were both talking about before. I think that was like half the episode. Yeah, love of jazz. I mean, that's what it is. You know, you have this performance going on. And sometime, you know, the director and I always know when we've got the shot. There's something that happens is synchronicity between the camera and the performance.

And you're like, that was great. I don't know why, but that was the shot. And you'll do three or five takes and someone will just be executed so perfectly, but it just didn't capture the thing. And then there's a moment, and the operator knows it too, when, you know, like, especially like with Elle, you know, we had all of these close-ups of her, and she's doing all these things and feeling all these things.

And Orlando's there behind the camera. And he's, you know, he's so used to people just being, here's a shot, this is very specific, whatever. And so you're loosening up operations. And he would totally start to vibe with L and the performance. And then you just would get it. And you're like, that was it. And with Nick Offerman too, oh, my God, he is amazing to watch what he brings.

He could like make you laugh and cry in one single shot. Like I had grown men grips just tearing up from him because he's just like he'll just speak to the heart of you. And when you capture that on camera, it's like magic. You're like, oh, we got it. Just go low. And also I'll say to the dolly grips too, you know, the dolly grips are so important on a studio show. A studio show meaning the camera is on a dolly in studio mode, not necessarily like Warrior Brothers. But, you know, in the studio approach.

You can't just, it's not on your shoulder. You can't just go wee. Right. And so my dolly grips know that they need to be listening. Most of them are wearing contacts. They have their monitor and they know the assignment of the, you know, and they're in tune with their operator. And they're going for it too.

You know, I'll have things like, oh, that was interesting. And my dolly grip, Bert will be like, like, yeah, felt like we should go that way. You know, and it's really interesting to see. And you have two people. behind the camera trying to, you know, make some magic with the actor. You know, when you think about it, it's pretty cool that we are able to do a show like Margot that feels so intimate, but when there's so many things involved to create that intimacy.

Yeah. Well, and especially like you mentioned with Offerman, I think over the past few years, he's been one of the more surprising, you know, because everyone loved him on, Parks and Wreck and stuff, but then especially like you get like Last of Us just decimating people. You know, like that guy is good. And also I think it's a classic, you know, I was just talking to, um, um, what's his name? John Brawley about shooting shrinking and he's got like Harrison Ford there. And I think it's kind of a similar thing where they know what they look like.

They know, like great actors know what this is. And they know how to use that mechanism, that instrument of their own face. to elicit a response that I think a lot, like I personally, I don't know what the fuck my face looks like, truly. Like I know, I know, but like I don't, I don't know how to manipulate people with it. Yeah. And, and you know, people are always like, let me take a picture. I take the worst pictures because I'm just like, I don't know what. A lot of this. I don't know what that. I know. I find myself doing things like this lot. I'm like, I don't do that in my personal life. Yeah. You know, but I don't know. I'm just awkward. from the in front of the lens, but they, I mean, that's so, it's so cool to have, I mean, just to go

talk about Margo. This cast, I think the crew had the best time because they were just so generous and nice to work with. And it was always a surprise to see what they were going to do, especially Michelle Pfeiffer. Like, oh my God, she's funny. I almost swore. I know I'm not supposed to. She's funny. You can say the fuck word here. This isn't for children. I mean, she's incredible. I don't even, I don't know where to start with her.

She just would crack us up all the time. And you'd think like, you know, here's this, here's Michelle Pfeiffer walking into the room, just, you know, probably like, you have no way. Let's be honest. You just don't know what you're going to get with big names. and movie stars doing TV. The TV schedule is very brutal. You just don't know what you're going to get. And everyone was just so fun and nice

and just there to play. And she loved this character so much, apparently, that she was so into it. And, you know, her husband's the creator, David E. Kelly. They've never worked together on a show. And it was so funny because you'd be like, don't you think it should be like this? And they never talk about,

work. Apparently their relationship is not about work at all. And that's probably healthy. We're like, what? We're like, why don't you tell David? She goes, no. You know, she was just like, I'll talk to Eva, you know, like it was just like, so she just wanted to create in this space in the world. It was so funny. She would get the hair, the makeup, and she wanted to like, she's like pushing up her boobs, you know. She just loved the character being the way she was. It was just really funny. She's so different in real life. that I think she just had a lot of fun with it. And to watch her, Cheyenne come into the room and we would shoot her. And you would just crack up sometimes watching her.

Yeah. You know, that was actually something else I was talking to John about. And the only reason to bring them up twice is because it was yesterday. But when you have these big names, especially people who have been around for a while, lighting them becomes not more important but you potentially need to pay more attention to what you're doing.

Yes. And I was wondering if there was any, I don't know if Tricks is the right word, but considerations when lighting the canvas of that person and not in specificity if that's too weird, but just like those types of considerations

when you've got, you know, these types of folks in front of the lens. I mean, you totally always, you definitely want to protect your actors, you know, and I say that because it's not because you're trying to create this world of false looks or anything like that. It's because people are cruel, you know, people will nitpick and concentrate on things. You're like, don't concentrate on that. Concentrate on this story. And so a lot of, you know, me protecting the actors in a show like this is to, you know,

so people can just stay in the character and not look at someone be like, oh, they're getting old. Oh, they had a lot of work done. You don't want that. You know, you can't control it. But you just want something to, it's flattering without being too lit or too much. It's not the 50s. It's not the 50s. It's not, I'm not trying to light them for like a romantic comedy.

You know, it was a very specific contrast ratio, you could say, or approach to lighting them in a key light. And again, it's hard for me. I know I should be a bit more specific and technical on it. But honestly, it's just, again, it's an instinctual thing. Once you start it on day one, you're like, I guess. got it. You know what needs to go. And you know how she's playing the room. She will also like she's just so kind, especially to the DP. So, you know, I've had actors like, well, you know, even though you're like trying to help them, they're like, I don't care. Like, I'm going to go

look here and you're like, okay, cool. Let me change the look of the show now. Yeah, yeah. She would always play within the space that we were that we had and a lot of it was And I can't speak for Carl because I wasn't on set during his stuff like you know you talk about how I dealt with it and the way I like to You know light environment in general is to overlight I have a my theory a lot is you know there's a lot of like available light looks and everything like that that go on. And I definitely like to, even though I love a shallow shooting stop for, you know, a show like this, probably I think we were shooting around a 2-2-8.

I do like to end it down and everything because light in the space is physical and it fills a room up. And so you have a great base layer and you bring everything back down to the contrast that you wanted to. but you have it there. If you don't have any light there, then there's nothing there. But if you bring in an environment that is lit and the light is there in the shadows and there in the space

and you bring everything down, it fills a room really nicely. And it fills those shadows and spaces really well. So that's an approach. And I also imagine that this is something I've tried to do in my own work, is, I think something that I've seen audiences kind of not enjoy is the wonderful tools that we've been given with the sensitivity of modern cameras where you don't have to pump light into a room.

And then it does tend to look kind of flat or muddy. Whereas if you are able to introduce a lot of light and then, as you say, ND down or whatever, the image just gets a little more of that snap that I think people are used to. from seeing film for the best 150 years. Yes, for sure. That's definitely been, it could be me being reactive to a lot of things I see where I'm like, that's it. I'm going back to like just doing a lot of lighting. The great thing is a lot of our lights are LED,

so they're not as hot as they used to be, so people aren't always complaining. That said, we did use a lot of Tungson heads on our set, and we caused a couple fires on the state. Yeah, we like one of our cables and in the perms melted and it didn't get hot, but good thing we had good AC. But we did use a lot of tungsten heads for sure. I definitely love tungsten heads still over a lot of LEDs. But nevertheless, a lot of the stuff inside could be smaller and lightweight and not as physically hot and uncomfortable.

and you could bring in a lot of light and still be very comfortable. As opposed to back in the day, I think when you were pumping and all, I mean, it was just really, you know, it was oppressive. Physically uncomfortable and oppressive. And people are like, what are you doing? So, but yeah, that idea and theory of bringing in a lot of light and kind of approaching it in that old school way, I think, is very helpful, especially for, you know, lighting our talent on this particular show.

You know, I was just, I'm going to just keep bringing up books probably for the next three months because I've just been, I've gotten, go ahead. I almost forgot. John Brawley's wife, Jess, operated for us for like the few episodes. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. So that wasn't funny. But, yeah, the only reason I keep bringing up books because it's recent for me and I'm just rereading them all. But I've gotten sick of the internet.

I got told today that I need to do more research about cinematography. And I was like, all right. All right, Reddit. They don't know who I am. A Reddit. Yeah. It used to be such a nice place. But I was reading the Darius Conji book and a lot of interesting things in there about going back to the idea of lighting people, you know, talking about with a city of Los Angeles.

children how Ron Perlman you know he was he was lighting everyone basically the same then he gets to Ron Perlman and he's like no like Ron's got such an interesting face he's like I got to do it this way and then there was a whole chapter in there about like one actress who who noticed that he was taken care of her every time you know and but that also brings me to this thought of a lot of these like S-tier actors and actresses knowing what they what looks good for them and again you guys aren't shooting like a drama so there is an element of like make them look nice

did you have you found maybe not even specifically with this show but have you found that there are certain you know hyper experienced actors and actresses that like no like go like hey if you just cheat that over this will look this will be good for me and you're like yeah no problem oh totally I know that that's part of the job and that is what we're there to do

and I went into it like well yeah we're going to take care of these actresses and everything there was a moment on set early on and again I'm getting this nervous feeling and I'm not showing it to people but it's the first time I'm shooting Michelle Pfeiffer

and everyone to everyone else you know, this is episode three. They've been, whatever, nothing's a big deal. It's just another shot and it's my first time shooting Michelle. And I like, do all the things, you know, and I think I've got everything covered. And I shoot her. Anyway, we have a monitor up of like a playback or someone is using the shot as a reference that we did of her and she walks past, you know.

I'm like, first of all, I hate when like actors are looking at because I feel, I feel self-conscious. I'm like, I don't want them to see what I've done, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's just a thing. It's just a thing of me because I'm super sensitive about it. Like, I think it's great, but, you know, people get in their heads. And she walks by and she looks at me and she goes, nice lighting. And I was like, oh, my God, I can retire now. I cannot believe Michelle said that to me.

And so, and from that moment on, she never, you know, she just had a trust is what I could say. Like, she just had trust. And it was fine. But yes, actors, actresses, they know their light, they know their angles. Most of them do the ones who are, who've been around a long time especially. And then they also bring in their makeup artists. I have makeup artists, especially like, you know, you do an actress like Nicole, who's so busy, she's coming on a different show. So she has people she trusts that are also watching out for her.

She's got to go to every AMC theater to intro. Yeah. Every day. Tours around the world. So she's got her team that comes with her, you know. And so I have makeup artists that sit behind me asking to watch the monitor and just to see like what they need to do. But also I'm asking them. And, you know, I got, they were just like, oh, my God.

Did you know that some people don't even light them? And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? You know, how could you not? You know, and I think a lot of people do, they do, you know, kind of lean on post-helping a lot of things. So, but, you know, it's also nice to just do it the old school way and just have it ready and do the thing and still do. Check off all the boxes. Make it look good. Make them look good.

Have a show that has a style and, you know, do all the things. and it's very rewarding. And so it was kind of fun. And yeah, it's funny when an actor comes into a room and they look around and they look at you and they go, hmm. Oh, yeah, all right. Cool.

That's what we're doing. Okay, great. You know, to some of them will get worried, but you want a lot of that, sure, you could fix a lot of things in post, right, these days? You don't want people to look plastic. though. I was going to say the post tools aren't that great for that yet.

I take a lot of pride in this show that they look at and we captured them really well and you're going to see that. You know, I mean, that's pretty awesome. And we didn't do a lot of VFX in general on the show. All of our effects were practical. We used the real babies, milk squirting out of the breasts, you know, like we did practical things, you know, and that makes it really fun. And, you know, we didn't do LED walls for the driving.

We didn't do LED walls out the hotel rooms. In the Vegas episode, there's these hotel rooms. We had these backdrops that were like, you know, I don't know when they were shot from the early 2000s. And I just was like, Vegas should be alive, you know. So Oliver and I, we, like, were figuring out all these tricks. Oliver's the Gaffer. Michael's the key grip. And we, like, strung all these different, like, shun.

all these different like streamers across, hitting them with lights. And just because I'm like, Vegas needs to be twinkly at night. How are we going to do this? We can't afford LED walls. We're not doing VFX. We had little dials like blinking airplanes.

You know, we did it all. It was so meticulous. But you look at like in the Vegas hotel rooms at night and it feels alive and it's all fake. But it's practical, you know. Yeah, it was a lot of fun to do that.

to like make it work in camera. Well, I also think a lot of those additions are not linear, right? Every little thing that you might just a little LED blinky there or whatever, it feels logarithmic, right? Even just a little touch suddenly can make an image much better. Oh, totally. I recommend to everyone, you know, you get them little dialed and stuff. You put them on your backdrops a little.

Like think about the top of a building. And I love to look at when I'm on. on stage shooting fake interiors with, you know, or the fake exteriors. I'm always trying to think of what it's like when you're on a real location. And there's just so many things that are uncontrollable. So I love adding things that you feel like you'd want to get rid of or want to control, but you can't. And when you add those little elements that are annoyances, it makes the place feel real.

Like I purposely flared the hotel room when they first go in in episode five. Margo first goes into the hotel room and she opens up the closet and the background's so bright and it's flaring her. And it just feels like a hot Vegas exterior. You know, and it's kind of, that's the vibe, right? To make it feel so real that it's like, yeah, obviously you can't control a hotel room on the 20th floor, you know. Well, that's the magic trick, right? I think it was one of the earliest episodes I did. Someone mentioned they called it like the fucket light,

which is like they'd light a room on a stage and then they would grab like whatever for now and just like, I'm making this part up, but just like spin it and wherever it landed. You're like, all right, and then move. Yeah. Because it's like just let, let nature decide where that's supposed to go. But it also, yeah. But also I think there's an element of like, this is the magic trick, right?

Like the audience is so smart now, or they think they are, that you have to trick them into accepting the facade, the whatever you've done. And one of those things I think of is like when people go, like the holdovers, I've used that as an example a lot. But so many people thought that that was shot on film, but they actually got the guy who does the,

criterion remasters to color it. So he knew all the things that he would do to make it look better. And he just did it the other way. You know, because now you have all this information, but you had a more limited, you know, with film you'll have a more limited thing. You know, it's, it's to use that. But it's adding those. Yeah.

But to your point, it's adding those things that you, where the audience goes, well, obviously they couldn't control that light. So this must be real. And it's not a conscious thought, but they just, it does. That's totally, I feel like that's definitely one of the, yeah, one of the tricks for sure. I mean, there's so many fun tricks to use to kind of, yeah. Go ahead.

I'd love to know some. It's just to make the exterior feel alive. I mean, even like on LED screens, which we didn't use on the show, but, you know, you just, I hate when car stuff just looks too perfect. I mean, it tells you that it's fake, you know? Like it's just too, you know, when you, no matter the budget, when you were out on a road shooting a process trailer, I mean, you're just hitting these bumps.

You're just everything has this rattle and shaken. And you're stopping at a street in the lights right there behind them. You're like, oh, we're going to have to go again. But somehow you just have created this sequence. It just feels like, yes, you're driving in the car with these people on a big multimillion dollar feature. That same thing needs to happen in the smaller stage world. You know, in TV and LED screens, it just really's got to get messed up. You know, it's just, they're just too perfect and clean.

And I think the biggest job for DPs is how to make something so clean look so raw and real on set. I love the I love I throw the term out all the time Perfect imperfection Like you know A lot of my operatish two You're like this is one of those tableau shots

You know and it's all perfect I go yeah but just put it slightly You know it doesn't have to it's not Wes Anderson It's been done it's overdone Everyone's doing it just make it Just slightly different You know like your instinct is to Is to create a perfect frame

I think when you're given the opportunity to. But you just, yeah, it's always just trying to find some element that makes it a little more authentic or a little more original, an original idea for this story. Yeah, it reminds me that when I was talking to Hoyta, he was saying how they would set up a really nice frame. And then he would like, and it would, apparently it would annoy, I don't know who certain people, but he would like start to push something. so it was like cut off by the side of the frame. Just like start moving props around. So they're like, it's just not quite perfect. And they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no.

Just, you know. Oh my God. Like my directors too will always, it's so funny because my art instincts, well, similar, always just so different to, you know, though they'll be like, oh, that we need to take that in or I go, no, I like that. And so it's always like, oh, it just really bothers me. Like they need everything perfect. I'm like, where is this perfection coming from?

Why are all the blinds so perfect? You got to fucking, we've got to turn one of them, you know? Like, that's the other thing that gets made is our blinds and shade. Everyone wants, like, we work so hard on Margo that all the blinds, because there's a lot of blinds on the show, are just, they're always kind of a little messed up because mine always were when I had blinds, especially that's the beautiful part about the set dressing school is like the total Southern California apartment. I was about to say you got to see mine because my like the little thing the this you're giving me

this okay too many thoughts. Just thinking of mine like the little the little hole that holds the plastic thing. Those always snap off. So there's about six of these where I flipped it over and shoved in the bottom because the little like a thing got you know. They're all different lengths. You got to be a good thing lived in, you know. Like if you're in a law office, it's been around for 10 years. You're not every, some of them are going to be bent on the sides and the edge. You need those kind of details to make something feel real and tangible. I love that. I love going around a set while we're waiting, like, waiting for talent or waiting for a prop or something.

I just love going around just like moving things and just like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I was thinking of with that little connection I just had was about process shots. Because the only one I've ever had to do was on a motorcycle. and then I hadn't had this thought yet.

But, or poor man's rather. But there's an exit by my, sort of that I take all the time. And there's, I don't know if you've seen it where you live, but there's sometimes when those LED streetlights go bad, they turn purple. Purple, yes. And it's like if I ever have to do a poor man's anytime soon, I'm going to just throw in every like 16th rotation of the lights or whatever we're doing,

just this one gross purple one. because you see it all the time. I just had a huge conversation with someone about this, and they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. I go, this cities have bought really bad LED vendor, whatever, streetlights. And when they go bad, they go purple. And I saw them a lot in Atlanta. There would be blocks where they'd be like four purple.

And I'm like, these were all changed at the same time, apparently. You know, and it would look like a zombie apocalypse. But yeah, that one random purple one pops up. Yeah, like you need to do things. things like that. That's, it's, it makes it feel, I don't know, there's something about it. It doesn't need to be described too much in words. It just works, you know. Yeah. Well, it's, it's cool too with the show like Margo where it does look very precise and clean, I suppose. You know, like I said, it's not a drama, but there is that lived in feel. Like, it's a wonderful blend

of precision in the lighting and the camera operating, but we're watching. quote unquote, a real space. Yeah. Yeah, you have this baseline. And I think as the show goes on, it does get more stylized. And so while we're talking about all of this stuff, it's going to be fun to see, you know, there's a shot of Cheyenne standing at the window at night in the hotel room, bathed in pool light from 20 floors below.

But it's like it's on her. And it's, it's, it's, it's. Poetic is what it is. And we do that sometimes to really just kind of add. Like it's a blend of like the internal in being with the character and what the experiences. Everything is supposed to be about the experience and what it feels like for you, what it would feel like. And when you're in the zone and you're listening to the music and you're just jamming along, you're supposed to feel that with her. You know, at the beginning of eight, episode eight's pretty cool because it just starts off with this like really great music and it's edited to it and there's a slow motion that comes around them.

And it's just like, here's this family getting ready to like for this final countdown, which is going to be the courtroom. You know, and it's stylized. It's super stylized. It's interesting how the story is always moving. Like sometimes it's very real and just locked in, and sometimes it's just like a fun ride. So that's pretty, I mean, it was so much fun to shoot, you can imagine. Yeah.

The crew is still talking about it. I'm working with half the crew right now on another show. And everyone's like, oh, we should all watch it together. It's going to be so much fun. What a great show. It's so rare to be on something like that. It'll probably never happen again. Right. Yeah.

I hope it does. I think, you know, like I've always been the perennial Apple hater as a company just because their closed wall system pisses me out sometimes as a guy who has an iPhone and a MacBook. But under duress, but their shows have always been just absolutely top tier. I don't think I've seen one bad Apple show. I mean, I have. I have. I, I, I think, I'm going to say this about Apple because I'm working with them right now.

I have noticed a change and I think they're knocking it out of the park right now. And I think it took some failures to get there. Well, anything does, you know. Yeah, like any company that wasn't a studio. And now, and I, they must be bringing great people. I mean, the beauty of this one is it's in collaboration with A24. And so Apple really is, you know, for us, Apple was the silent partner, excited to receive our show and show it. 824 was very involved.

Llewellyn Pictures was very involved. And I think that family really just wanted to make something special and good. And I think the notes that came were from the same family. So I think it was able to stay as original as it wanted to be and then went off. And Apple really loved it and their notes were very few. Like they were just a very big champion of it. And I think that really helped, you know, give it a special place. And yeah, so, yeah, when I was saying like, oh, the crew was like, oh, it'll never happen again.

I mean, this isn't the same crew I worked with on Interior. interior was like that. It had that same feeling and vibe of like, we're doing something awesome, new, fun, and everyone is super great. Yeah.

I can't exist. And it's like for this to happen again to me, I was like, wow, so let's just keep doing that, you know? Well, luckily,

you know, well, it's lucky and unlucky depending on where you're sitting, but, you know, DPs, you tend to get hired off of the last thing you did.

shot a horror film, I would like you to shoot our horror film. So seeing as you've done at minimum two of these, you'll probably get hired to do something again that is just as fun. I just hope they keep writing them like that. I mean, what a what is true? I mean, what do they call it when it's based off a book IP? Right. Yeah. Adaption. Adoption. Adoption. Yeah, this was adapted from a book interior was adapted from the book. It's interesting that that's the thing now. to do stuff like that. Adaptation. Thanks, Darya.

All right. Well, the hour absolutely flew by, so I'm going to let you go. I know. Sometimes they go very quickly. I'll talk to you guys. Thank you so much. Yeah, bye-bye. Bye, guys.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.