Frame & Reference Podcast - 249: "Black Rabbit" Cinematographer Peter Konczal, ASC

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

TREMENDOUS news! This week we have the absolutely wonderful Pete Konczal, ASC on the program to talk about his work on Black Rabbit, House of Cards, and more!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 249 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Candy McMillan, and my guest Pete Consul, ASC, DP of Black Rabbit. Enjoy. Cool show. I'm surprised they haven't like paraded you out for. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, I feel like it's, it sort of went under the radar a little bit, I think.

You know, I mean, not not, like I feel like it did well, uh, for sure. I mean, I think when it came out, it landed really well with Netflix. But it's funny how there's expectations, right? Like, I feel like everybody expected Jason to come out and do something else like Ozark. And it's just so different. And it's a different language for him and obviously for his character. So I think initially some of the critics were like, oh, what's going on here? But then, like, you know, the audience really reacted to it.

And then I think it caught fire after that. Yeah. Also, I think right now, you know, obviously there's a production dip, which sucks for us. Yeah. But everyone who is shooting stuff seems to be shooting great stuff. So there's just a lot of things out there that I think. Like I just interviewed the guy who shot a murder bot from Apple.

And it came out last year. And I was like, this is exactly like the algorithm should have found me for that. Like, what is this? There's just too many good shows out. There's don't know. Like we're in this great era of television. And, you know, I feel like it's been going on for a long time. But, yeah, my first show, I was talking to someone about it.

Like, I was, you know, I do a mentorship program with the ASC. I was talking to my mentor. And I was like, you know, like, I feel like a lot of it kind of started with the Sopranos, right? That was the, that was sort of this amazing show. And people were like, wow, you can do this with TV. And then six feet under kind of came, you know, right? It's kind of on the heels of that. And then for me, it was maybe big.

Breaking Bad was great. Oh, my God. Yeah. In terms of, obviously, yeah, the Sopranos and stuff. But I think Breaking Bad, at least for modern, the way I see modern television, because Sopranos still had the, like, in my opinion, still felt kind of old school in its approach. Breaking Bad, I feel like it was the first modern TV. Again, in my opinion, I'm sure I'll get you.

No, that's a great note. Yeah. I think for me, like for, you know, there was a certain level of cinematography and supremas or just even like the character development. I just thought like, it definitely feels fresh. Well, you were on the squad for what I think was like the second wave, which was House of Cards. Yeah. Yeah, I was called in a House of Cards. I started working on the third year of that show.

And it was so great. And that was kind of my entry to television. My first assignment was funny. I know. I remember saying to my age and I was like, yeah, I'm ready to, you know, I was doing a lot of videos and commercials at the time. I was like, I'm just ready to go back in a narrative. and they say, well, you know, we have a client, Martin Allgren, who I knew from New York. And they're saying, like, the show is, it's a heavy load.

And when he has to go out and scout, he's shooting all the episodes. And when he has to go out and scout, you know, he needs help, you know, maybe cover, you know, on, you know, tantums or main unit. And my first assignment was literally doing like 50 inserts. That was my first day. And I, and if you've ever seen it, there's that great, somebody strung out something on Vimeo, of all David, David Finch for's inserts from Zodiac.

And they're just, they're beautiful. So I took it as this, all right, I'm just going to make this like, you know, this like art piece and we're going to go crazy with this. And it went well.

And then, you know, that eventually led them to saying, okay, well, it's, you know, Martin's got to go scout.

So if you can cover with them on main unit, that would be great. And then eventually like, well, Robin Wright wants to direct and we figure it's going well. And you can, you can prep a lot with her well. Martin's working and that'll be a great thing, you know, for her to have that.

And then and then it just kind of took off. Yeah. So, you know, Fincher definitely has an insert, insert fetish. Like all his cinematography seems to be very like, you know, medium shots, at least with that show, like, medium shots, composed. Everything's very like. And then, and then there's just, as you're saying, like, yeah. I was thinking of the lenses.

Isn't he like a very specific, I should just ask, like, I imagine you must have learned a lot on that show. It was great. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you work on something like that and you can't help it get infinitely better in a very short period of time. You kind of immerse yourself and it's, you know, like you always hear it's like going off to war. So you do that and you're studying all night and I was trying to, you know, I was trying to study the show and I was going back to Fincher's earlier work. One great thing on that show, too, is we had this legendary camera operator you'll hear of a lot named Gary J.

And David fell in love with Gary. he was doing girl with the dragon tattoo and I think that scene where where Mara like you know it carves that thing in that guy's chest like her guardian he felt you know he's he's notorious for if he's

not happy with something he'll just go back and shoot it and I think he'd gunned back and done that scene several times and wasn't feeling right about it and then he found Gary Jay and Gary was Curtis Hanson and Michael Mann's like kind of career ACAMOP and everybody everybody

but he loved this guy. And Gary went in and shot that and brought a lot to it. And David fell in love with him and that sort of led to him being on House of Cards. And he was just brilliant. And it was so great from both me and Martin Allgren. And Igor Martinovich, the prior year to have him. So we learned a ton from Gary. Yeah.

I also, I've had a couple times on Eigle Burl. Yeah. And that was a weird one for him. Like when I was looking him up, I was like, wait, you shot the whole first season? He's like, oh, yeah, that was kind of crazy. I'm like, I imagine. So he shot, so yeah, when you get there,

because he's 13 episodes. I mean, like, yeah, every episode. I mean, you're making every episode with such precision. I mean, you're lining up shot like insert shots, and you're literally measuring from, you know, one side of the map box and the other side of the map box to an object and checking to make sure everything perfect. your set dresser is running in and like repositioning things for perfection.

So yeah, there was such an enormous amount of detail. And I think Tim Ives wound up shooting the last two episodes of that season because I think I don't know if he spoke about it, it was just like, okay, my brain is just going to explode. I mean, this is, you know, after 11 episodes, I don't know. Yeah. No, it's funny. I feel like I must have.

No, no, because you just said, what's his face for a seat? but Tim was like my I've done 150 or 250 episodes of the show Tim was like my 30th Oh that's awesome Because he had done Halston

That's right Yep Yeah And Stranger Things is obviously The you know big one for Tim Yeah Yeah it's interesting There's a lot of

There's a few of us DPs from New York That kind of intersected And know each other Tim being one Martin Allgren being one Igor and it's kind of great.

Yeah, we've kind of floated out of different worlds and we'll discuss different ideas and just a great thing when you're on a show. So, yeah, when I was on House of Cards, it was kind of great to have Martin to bounce ideas off of and on Black Rabbit as well to have that. I think it's a great thing if you're friends with a DP and you're kind of tackling problems together.

It's pretty amazing. Yeah, I mean, that's something that people have told me coming on this show. I was like, oh, you don't really get to talk to other DPs about the work too much. It's a rather singular job. You know, you're usually talking to directors, producers, or other people, but it's rarely, it's apparently very DP to DP-centric. It's kind of a funny thing. Yeah, like a lot, you know, when I got into the ASC, I met, I started meeting more and more DPs.

And then that's a great community where we all talk a lot. And the only other time, yeah, you really do it so much is when you want to show with somebody. So, you know, even when I was on Fargo, I remember we finished during the, we went back during the summer of the pandemic. We shut down in March of 20 and then we went back. We were so close and the studio was so afraid that a DP would get sick or get COVID. So we invited Dana Gonzalez and I invited Eric Messerschmitt to join us. And... Bella was on that show too, right?

Who's that? Bella. Bella, yeah. At that point, Bella was doing a lot of second unit. And then the next season, she wound up shooting a couple episodes. Yeah. And she was great. So she was there.

There was a great second unit DP named John Conner, who's a great DP and operator. A lot of amazing people came through that world. But I remember, yeah, and Eric and I just would... When we were working, we would just send frames to each other every night of what we were doing. and that we would discuss things and like what lights we were using or how we were framing and it. It was like the greatest thing ever.

And we still do it to this day, even on other projects. Yeah, this is funny. And now I just feel like we were collecting fucking DP Pokemon because it like, I've had Eric on the show a few times too. But it is interesting that all of you went through the like Fincher Film School.

Yeah, yeah, which I think makes you, I mean, it's great. Like you kind of, you know, you kind of get the shit kicked out of you in a way.

Like you want to, you want to play to that level. and it's a wonderful world to be in it. And all his work is done with such purpose. Directors would come in and say, I remember Agneshka Holland was there. And she's like, she's like, oh, I'd like to do Steady Cam on this. And I remember Gary J.

Before I could even say it, Gary's like, we're not, we don't do Steady Cam with the show. Fenture doesn't do Steady Cam. But we had amazing Dolly grips. We had an amazing way of moving the camera. And once you fell into that and embraced you, you're like, wow, what a just such an incredible continuity to these scenes. Yeah, I heard he like will glue down

Yeah, I think this was for Mind Hunter But like like the set dressing and stuff It's just like fucking super glued to the table He's like, that's not moving. Yeah, remember talking to the VFX supervisor It's like we stabilize every shot even static shots So yes You know what?

I've actually stolen that Not necessarily locked off shots But I do like overly stabilize everything now Because it's like Yeah Why not? Unless it's not supposed to be stable. But if it's supposed to be mildly stable, fucking throw it in DaVinci.

Stabilize. Who cares? We have the tools. Yeah, I know, right? And now, yeah, that was always, you know, part of his great like of the red cameras that you were shooting all these extra pixels. So we would shoot in 6K at the time. I think it was the dragon.

But we would frame in 4K so he could repo and stabilize and just have more control. Yeah. Are you able, as a... a DP to take any of those kind of I wouldn't necessarily call them lessons, but like tools and workflows and stuff onto other shoots, or is that a very Finchirian thing? Yeah, I think

I think you do and then you start breaking away from it. I think what you take is the purpose. Like, right? I'm not going to, you know, from that world, I really appreciated, you know, not doing unmotivated camera moves or Or shooting, at times shooting with more depth of field, right? So that you take more of your world in. It's so easy to get a pretty picture on a longer lens with a shallow focus. But you can often miss your scene, which was a thing on Black Rabbit, right?

Like, I feel like... A lot of long lenses on Black Rabbit. There's a lot of long lenses, but I remember, like, you go in with a few notes. And one of the notes I had to myself was like, I want to make sure we come back with New York City. So even if we're doing that, even if we're framing or on a long lens and there's a tableau of something and it's, you know, some characters on a bench, I want to make sure that whatever, like we can tell that that's a Manhattan Bridge or whatever or downtown or. And that became, that became like a big, a big thought for me, to not, not to miss that and to not to defocus it. Yeah. You know, I've never asked anyone this, but now that you've brought it up, this is interesting. You know, are you from New York? You just live there. So, yeah, I'm actually from New Jersey and I still live in Jersey now.

But yeah, so I'm on this coast. Yeah. What do, do you feel like there's a lot of instances where people get filming in New York get it wrong? Like where they don't utilize the built-in production value that's there? I think so. Because I think, you know, when I was doing research, you know, I felt like I had to go kind of further back to 70s films to find films that did represent New York really well. And then in doing that, I'm like watching The French Connection or Manhattan again thinking,

like, wow, these guys really got it right. And I feel like maybe it's kind of been missed for a while. I really became an awe of Owen Royceman's work on the French Connection again. I mean, some of those chase scenes, they just go on forever. And right there. And then you're going on to these train trestles And you're going through these areas And I'm like I mean,

It's completely representing New York But the energy of these scenes is so high And obviously you notice the zooms on Black Rabbit Which a lot of those were taken from those 70 style films I think it was something that was at least for a while Those zooms were abandoned And then we just

You know, we just ate them up Yeah I feel like there was a moment there Where Zooms were seen as very unprofessional Right? Yeah, I feel like, yeah, people felt they were cheap. And they really, I mean, it's funny. And in some ways, like, you know, I really, I fell in love with them. And I almost wish at times I used them more. Like there was a scene in the fourth episode of the show of Black Rabbit

where like, you know, Jay confronts Anna on the street. And I remember saying my operators, like, you know, I know we're going to do this kind of cross-coverage. you know, once we set the scene up and we have our longer lens set up of it. But like, why don't we, we use this 28 to 76 on June Zoom? I was like, well, why don't we further, you know, just mess it up by having, you know,

our friend Matt Pellor, one of our operators, was on steady and Ari Isler, our other operator was also amazing. I put him on the Zoom, and he just did these kind of little, you know, he just reactively, you know, kind of moved in and out during the scene. and it just added all this extra tension and that sort of like compound moving of the camera and the zoom and yeah

I look back in the series like, wow, I wish I did that a lot more. Yeah. I'm trying to think of other shows that have done that punch. That's not like the office. It is funny how you can you can just use. Cinematic language is so fun in that way. You could say like the office or black rat,

same quote unquote, same thing. Well, right, yeah, different ways. So, so, yes, you asked about, you know, working with Fincher and, like, what, you take so much away from that. And then I do think, you know, you also get to a point where, like, well, I also, you know, sometimes feel like you can get handcuffed if you fall too much into that, right? That you're, you're, you're, you know, like a big thing for Black Rabbit, a big influence for Igor and I was The Insider, which is, you'll hear so many DPs talk about that film. That film is so brilliantly shot. It's just ridiculous. And it's very alive.

There are zooms within that film. But one of the greatest things about that film is there's often mismatched coverage, right? So if you're on somebody in a conversation with two people and you're frontal on someone, you're off access on another. And you can give more value to the person and hinge it off the person that's more connected to their eyeline. And that was something that Igor and I really tried to do. like right to say like let's just let's mismatch the coverage let's let's keep things off kilter as much as possible um and and those those sort of things you start you know i found i wanted to break away from from the you know the you're so often answering shots in the fincher world yeah you know you mentioned

like we don't do steady cam and stuff what what weren't you doing for this show because i noticed like i said like a lot of long lenses there's a lot of um you know it well at As it progresses, you know, it starts to get a little more handheld and stuff. Yeah, yeah. That's a great question. I mean, one thing, I mean, in terms of the camera movement, I'd say, you know, we were trying to do more Z-axis moves. And you'll notice that, you know, a lot more early on. So we were trying not to do, you know, X and Y axis moves.

We were pushing on and running parallel. So that's something I think we also felt was keeping things a bit, you know, off-kilter. you can feel them on the last episode I remember there's all that hands held stuff that you know as you were talking about and the idea was to kind of break away the more controlled dressed camera in the early part of the season

where you're shooting through these layers and we're off on Dali and on the Z axis moves and then at the end when they're just, I remember Justin Curzolo came out at the end said he's like I just want to I want to be all I want to be handheld

I want to be you know like to the the point that I want, I want there's to be so much energy to the point that it feels like the camera operators are picking up the camera late. So I'm calling action and then we need to have it their hands, which is a really great way to keep tension on set to and keep the, to keep the operators also a bit off balance, right? But when, when they finally get back to the rabbit for the last time, then you see, you see those, and you know, you kind of know that things are settling and you know there's going to be, like Vince's fate is coming up. You see, you know,

a couple more times you see those there's there's there's i think there's two z axis moves in that space um they're kind of the last kind of the last goodbye to that yeah you know it's it's that makes me think of uh it is interesting how you know i've i've talked a lot about um flow states and stuff you know when you when you know you're doing well and stuff and you're kind of like um in the moment in a very like present way uh i guess that's what being in the moment is, idiot. But the idea of physicalizing, like you're saying like, oh, you know, action, shit, now grab the camera. Like, where you're like, because actors will do that, right? You wouldn't think to do that as a, as the technician.

But it can really, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but that type of stuff I feel like is undervalued. It is. On our side of the camera. Right? Yeah. Justin came in with... Justin's works really great. It's very alive, right?

I mean, a lot of it's very uncomfortable, too. Have you seen Snowtown or Nittram? Yeah, so he made this movie Snowtown about these serial killers in Australia. And it's, I mean, it's almost like hard to watch. It's so brutal at moments. He did that with Adam Arkapaw. And I think that was, you know, the precursor to... I'm working on the first season of True Detective.

And, you know, the work was so great. But I remember Justin, and it was like that. The camera was very alive. And I remember him saying, like, I was watching Amaris Peros. And it had that feeling, right? It really, in that movie, is so alive and it's so off-kilter. And even, like, you know, even when we were in the cars, you know, it was just handheld in the cars. He's like, I don't want any process trail or,

I don't want any screens. I don't want, you know, we're just going to go, even if it limits us to, we're just going to go wrong and we're going to run till the end. And, yeah, there was also a scene, too, like in the last scene in the VIP lounge, when they have that very deep conversation, you kind of see Vince breaking down. Like something that, like, you know, I mean, I got to be honest, I would normally never do is that shot with two cameras at the same time with cross-coverage. Right. And that was another theme in that last block. I remember Justin said, he's like, I don't want to wait for any, I don't want to be lighting when we turn around.

And I just want to go. I want to keep this guy in this moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at first, it's funny, I mean, I knew Sam Chippelin at the, who shot this other series for him, a long, narrow road to the north. And Sam was saying, he's like, oh, yeah, when I were, worked for Justin's very similar. He doesn't, you know, doesn't want to feel the weight of gear and of that thing.

And I was, but you know, it turned into an amazing challenge. And I found, you know, when we scouted, I went out with my gaffer. And even on the streets, I, like, added streetlights. And I hid lights in places. And, you know, there's a scene with him and Campbell in a Chinese, in Chinatown at a restaurant. And I remember, like, going in and, like, retrofitting everything. And I remember having to kind of whisper to my gaffer. like at times like I'll turn that one off or turn that off a lot.

So he would never know or the actors would never know. And that came to a head when we did that scene with Jake and Vince and it's just one top light in the VIP lounge. And I got to say, I mean, it was the right thing to do. And I think it was sort of an epiphany for me. Like, you know, like we can, as cinematographers, we can really fall into this trap of just trying to perfect everything and trying to light everything and try to, you know, you're always trying to create, you know, control hard by it

or shape things to your liking. But you know what? Like giving the actors the freedom to cover, to cross shoot like that and just let them go and then Justin wanted to really break them. So we must have done about

15 takes. We just like, again, again, again. And like, and and both cameras on both of them. And it was great. And you could see them. You could see, you could see, you could see Jason kind of, we're so used to seeing Jason a certain way, right? And you could see it kind of cracking and you saw this more, you know,

this very emotional, honest honesty coming out and he didn't want to, he knew that that Jake would take it to the end with him and he knew there was really only one choice for him. And then you could see the honesty in that performance. And the same for Jude, like Jude, Jude who is, you know, Vince who is, I mean, Jake, who was charming everybody the whole time. Like, you saw that charm kind of start. you know, fading away.

And it was just, the only, the only thing was left was this honest performance. And it was, and I remember thinking like, yeah, Justin's right. It's so, it's so great to not interrupt this moment and not have to like, all right, we're going to turn around now. We're going to make these adjustments and make sure he's got an eye light or whatever. It really worked. The show also, I noticed, and I mean this is a compliment. I feel like every deep he takes this as a compliment.

But I, one of my first questions was going to be like, did you guys like this thing? Because everything just feels so of the space. You know, there's no obviousness to it at all. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I think that's a great thing. I think the best compliment for us would be for it to not look lit. And there's a lot going on, right? There's a lot, but it's all built into the sets.

So in the VIP lounge, you know, we tried to build as much, you know, much it practically in. and then even if we're going to do big scenes, you know, like there's a scene in one of Laurel Lennie's episodes where Ray performs, which is kind of another one of my favorite scenes.

And I remember, I remember you don't get a lot of time on these shows, really, and even on a show this big, I remember thinking, like, we basically have every single character and every plot point in one space and kind of one chance to get it in like half a day, right? And so it's a stuff that kind of keeps me up

the night before or the days before. So I try to place lights to embellish that and everything was very soft. We used a lot of like esters with socks that were skirted or into mixing with the practicals. But then really to create like a global lighting that just existed. So so it's great for me to hear if it didn't feel lit because there was a lot that did go into it to have it feel like that. Yeah. it's funny how

he's like you know being on the documentary side like there's always you know as you're saying like the car scenes and stuff like my at least the director I work with mostly is always like I want it eye level in the passenger seat just absolutely locked off like what do I get he's like I don't know two backpacks

like there's no no support for that kind of thing and then when you have the you know the budget of a television show you're like put it on your shoulder fucking have fun you know right and the same thing with lighting like a look natural, but if you just add a little, now it looks really natural, even though it's making out.

Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting nuance thing. I mean, there were other things that went into that look of the show, right? So, I mean, like, we detune lenses to try to, you know, keep them as soft as possible. We use live green. We kind of created our own personal kind of smoked filters so that there was this kind of, you know, we wanted to beat up the Sony sensor to have it look. as soft and like it was never intended to be like a pretty show um i think you know like it has an

interesting look but but but the idea was to kind of keep it in that soft not lit in feeling world and that if you know if the sun's coming through you know a certain place like we just let it come in and land as as it did the other thing that was kind of fun with the show that i've noticed a lot of people comment there's a certain amount of like kind of cool or green in the shadows and we used chroma key blue with with with with blue bounced into it so we kind of put a soft blue into the shadows that way so when it's graded with lighting with lighting yeah so often people you know you think of bounce and you think of like muz or whatever things and we actually only used um blue for bounce so interesting and you could see if you go back you

could you could really feel it in the show you could feel it this kind of you know probably a great example is the beginning of, I mean, it's all over the show, but I remember I went back and watched the show this week in the beginning of episode seven. It's the kids in the childhood home. And there's these kind of warm, and that scene is just lit with the warm practicals in that room.

And then that soft bounce, that soft blue bounce, and that's just kind of like this living film of blue light in the shadows. Interesting. Yeah, the two bounce techniques, I guess, that have interested me recently. I don't know if you've ever seen the brokay. That like weird multicolored thing

where it's supposed to add a little extra juge to your bounce or even diffused it just so it doesn't look white, you know? Right, right, right. But then the other one is like bouncing off of like gray or black, like bouncing off Negg. And I still don't know if I've seen evidence that it does do something.

It's like not specular anymore. It's issue. It does, my brain says that's not a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah, my Gafford came to me in L.A. recently, he goes, he goes, okay, we're going to, we're just going to stop using, yeah, like you're saying, we're going to stop using, like, half soft frosts and light grids. And I'm starting to use 7% gray.

And it's amazing how it neutralizes. And you're right, like black silks and things. Like, they, it really works. And, like, I mean, really, like, I mean, you can balance into architecture on sets, like, right? like you could, I so often go in a set down, like, well, if the sun came in and hit that wall and that's like wood panel, right? Like, let's just bounce into that. Like, so often, you know, your key grip will say like, well, don't you want to, do you want to bounce? You want me to like tape some muz on there? Like, no, no, no. That's like actually. So you just kind of further go down that,

that, that, that hole, I think, the further you shoot. Yeah. And then you've got Deacons who was just like unbleached muz all the time. Yeah. Deacons is great. Do you see that thing recently where I really liked it a lot where he talked about because it's such a massive trend right, the last decade backlight. And there's a video somewhere where Deacons is like,

yeah, I was never really in the backlight that much. Like I always kind of felt like it was unnatural. And you look at his films and yeah, like the level of naturalism in his work is it's really spectacular. And I think that's why it really lives forever. Right. There's certain traps.

like we talked about like the like to up the field and you know that you know and i think i think sometimes i feel like people almost get over obsessed with glass and miss like the glass is going to do all this magic but it's really like it's really what you're putting in front of the camera and the scene you're creating yeah and i don't like glass i'm going to obsess about as much as anyone else but yeah it's not it's not a magic trick yeah yeah it's also i think kind of the internet's fault and it's easy to blame the youths or whatever but we're all on youtube you know yeah let's not lie and pretend we're only watching the criterion channel and i think even if you know earlier on in the forum days you know the cinematography forums whatever

with collective knowledge comes prescription you know where it's very easy someone's starting off and they will hop on the forums or whatever and it's a lot of people going like well i don't know, you know, it's almost the like three point lighting problem, quote unquote, when you're trying to teach someone cinematography where now you're like, ah, backlight looks cinematic. And then that just, that idea just carries through, you know. Right. Yeah. And I mean, you just see so much that shot like that.

And I'll be on seven minutes. Any of us will fall into it. Yeah. Like I was doing Bronco commercial last week. And, you know, when you're doing car commercials, you can't, you just can't always have the car in the best light, you know, your gun, and it's summer, right? So it's even worse. So, but then you realize that, you know, if the sun comes, you know, with three-quarter front and, like, hits a grill in a certain way, and it glistens or the way a certain pain is on a car, uh, the car, the car often

looks great in those situations. And then if you're, um, if you're only, like, striving for backlight on the car, like, then it all kind of just looks the same, right? And I was talking to Adolfo Velosa at the ASC Awards this year about changing. Yeah. I've talked to him. You hear it. He's awesome, right? Like, I remember, like, one thing, like, it was great. I said, yeah, you know, the great thing about, like, you didn't try to make everything perfect.

It doesn't look like he tried to just throw silks over everything. Like, there's such variance in the light. And he said, it's so great. He said to me, he goes, yeah, I mean, if we were going to shoot it like that, we might as well just shot on a studio. You know, like, you want to come back with the Northwest and the variance in that. And so your work feels more alive with. You know, when you're the more, you know, like, it's like, yeah, embrace front light. Like, take back, like, side light, you know, like, the more, I remember hearing John Toll and the thin red lion saying, you have to be able to shoot in the middle of the day.

And there's these beautiful midday shots where, like, right, the cloud, the sun's rolling through the clouds. And that's such a gorgeous film. And, yeah, like, those things that you have to kind of break as a cinematographer, you have to get yourself out of your comfort zone. And a lot of that is like, I need to embrace other type of light, like more frontal light at times or topy daylight or there's, it's all useful, right? Yeah, I mean, and using terrain dreams as an example is like the whole thing obviously shot, it seems like at, you know, a blue hour or whatever. But then there's that one shot where you're just sitting there in the burnt house and it's just noon. Yeah, yeah. You know, you're like, there you go.

We can still do that. Yeah, yeah. I think it's essential to do it, right? I think it's, yeah, I think what will really differentiate, you know, the films that are more alive and real is, is those variances of light, right? And so that's, yeah, that's a big trap. And going back to the insider, too, there's moments where, you know, Russell Crow's characters is under such pressure.

And there's like, almost the ugliest light on. Like he goes down, I think, Mississippi, you know, for that, give that deposition and he's and he meets with that lawyer and he's sitting in someone's house and there's just like hard light coming on and I'm like and remember Igor and I go, it's absolutely perfect, you know, like, so, yeah, it's, uh, I bring those things. Well, something that I've kind of internalized is the difference between emotionally correct and technically correct.

Yeah. You know? And, uh, it makes me think like you shot obviously, you mentioned the Bronco commercial, but you shot a bunch of commercials in your career. do you find yourself doing those jobs versus doing narrative that you kind of have to be more technically correct? Because I can't imagine that I'm sure you've had wonderful clients before. But there's instances I can only imagine, even based on my limited commercial work, where the client is educated to a point, but only in this kind of like forum common knowledge thing. where like you're saying, you shoot a Kumar commercial

and they're like, it has to be backlit. You know, like that, that one, you know, where is the emotionally correct in a commercial? Right, right, right, yeah. I know that's so, it's tough. I mean, there's just going to be times on a commercial. You're right. I mean, I think you do have to carry enough technical knowledge

to get yourself out of certain jams or to be able to respond to a client request. And commercials are tricky too. Like, I feel like a lot of people go into commercials. Like, I'll see directors going to commercials. Like, I'm going to make, I'm going to make my art film on this commercial and then not realizing too

that either people at the agency or the client that spent months figuring out what will best sell that product and so you I feel you have to be you have to listen to that you have to be flexible and yeah I've seen I've seen directors just break their career on hold like oh I'm going to do this like and this is like you know

and sometimes I'll you know I've been Harris of you this year's ago and remember, like, he was telling me he had to pull a director aside and say, he goes, we'll get there, but the fight you're taking with the agency right now is not worth it. Like, let's do good work.

Let's find our thing. Let's you and I grow together. Maybe you do a director's cut. I feel like almost 80% of the directors I work with, or 80% of commercials is a director's cut. And I'll say that. Like, do your director's cut. Save it for that.

But, like, if there's a moment where they're going to ask the grill of the car to kind of like, you know, glimmer in this moment, And it's completely seems ridiculous. It's a product shot. So then at this moment that we have to deliver and we have to figure out how to do that.

And if we're doing a running shot with that, we have to figure out the position of the sun. That's not going to be backlit and that's going to glisten and it's going to work and the right focal length. It's another thing on car commercials too is, you know, figuring the right angle or height with the car and everything like so

that doesn't bubble too much or that looks at sexiest. And that's sometimes you'll get a deck from the agency that shows all these things and you're mandated from the beginning to kind of play in that world. So, yeah, completely different language. Yeah. Well, and also it's, you nailed something that I think is easy to forget, which is like, there was some very creative people who spent forever with 400 revisions and having to be approved by everyone in, you know, Japan or wherever, you know, it's this, you don't know these people.

And for you to turn around and be like, no, you're wrong is ridiculous. Like just serve the vision. Yeah. Also, your name's not going to be in the credits. No one's going to know. Right, right, right. And look, I think there's ways like there's, and that's not to me to say you can't do great work in that world because I think there is a lot of great work. And you can grow and like, like if you sometimes you wind up in a situation like that where it's like, well, okay, yeah, I have to listen.

I have to listen, you know. And we have to do the best thing within that. But like, how can we learn? Like, what's one thing we can do on this job that's a little bit different? there. But yeah, those are just such different worlds. On the shows I've worked on, I've been lucky. I've never felt that there's anybody, like sometimes the showrunners will come and they'll talk to you, but there isn't a client. There isn't, I don't find that there's a producer that's coming in and saying,

you've got to do this. You got to, you know, like you have an enormous amount of freedom. Yeah. You know, that brings up something that I feel like has been speaking of like internet's and forums and stuff. Internets? What? Anyway. Which is that this idea that these streamers have some kind of prescriptive set of tools that you need to employ, you know, whether it be in the grade or anything like that. Have you ever run into that?

You know, it's so funny you see that. Yeah, there was that thing that kind of went a little bit viral. Wally Fister sent it to me recently where definitely. Oh, really? The Netflix. What's he doing? I don't know, Wally,

we, Wally's awesome. We kind of bonded on, we're both really into guitar. Never been able to find him. Yeah, yeah. He's, I know he's directing commercials.

I mean, he's such a brilliant shooter. And I think he's really, you know, I like, you know, found pleasure and directing

in the commercial world as well. But I remember he sent me that and like kind of, we'll send things back and forth, like just, you know, kind of goofing around about things. And I saw it.

And it was amazing the reaction of the cinematography community to that, right? Like everything, you know, all the shaping has been taken out of your light and there's a certain color and it's like, and I don't know. I mean,

I think there's sometimes, sometimes you'll get some pressure from the posts or the network. Or I think in just about every single grade I've ever gone in on any of the shows. I've always tried to, you know, bring what I do to it.

And I'm definitely one of those DPs that will get. accused of being too dark. So when I saw the bright, brightening thing, I found it a little fun. I think I've, I don't know if I've snuck one past the goalie,

but I feel like I've gotten away with a fair amount of dark work. And I don't think everything should be dark. I remember greeting, the first episode of Fargo that I did, which was the Chris Rock season. And so many from Post called me and said, this is never going to fly.

This is like, you know, it's in, and I remember Dana Gonzalez. I don't know if you've ever had him on the show. He's amazing. No, just Bella. Just Bella. Okay. All right.

Bella's great too. I mean, my bell is amazing. I can't say enough great things about her. And Dana, who's her dad, and like, what better mentor to have, right? Right. But I remember, I remember Dana. Dana's really funny. He's this awesome guy.

Dana's like, bro, they've been saying stupid shit like that to me forever. He's like, you got to just, I brought you into this show for a reason. I want you to, like, I want you to do your thing. if somebody somewhere comes and gives you shit about it like and you know come back to me and then and nobody didn't it was this beautiful like with this beautiful scene in a jazz club in the 50s that starts that episode and there's this like oneer

and it's just really cool shot and I just remember I just remember going very rich and very in a certain color palette and it all worked out and then you know I think that episode got nominated for for an ASC award and I remember thinking like I'm really I'm really glad that I took this position of like,

okay, I'm willing to like fall on the sword. I'm going to, I'm going to stick to my guns on this. And if somebody comes back and says anything about it, then let's have a discussion about it. And I didn't feel like anybody did try to watch the contrast out or any of that. So I think someone had to sit there when I saw my video. Well, and there was a few,

there's like two things that I've been sent a bunch. One is the whole Netflix look argument. Sorry, Allison. which I noticed no one had the same definition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all just decided that's what they were going to call it. I started a Reddit thread where I was like, if you think this, show me an example and zero,

there was like 200 comments, zero examples. Everyone trying to explain to me how stupid I was for not agreeing. Right, right. And I was like, you guys, like some of you were saying it's a pejorative. Some are you saying it's like something you look to do? But no one's giving it a definition. I mean, how do you explain Ozark? I mean, Ozark had its own look, right?

It had that kind of very cool look. And yeah, no, it's, it's ridiculous. I also sort of have a theory that whoever made that video, like, it looks like that video was flattened, you know? Right, right. Right. Well, that's the second thing, too, is people sending me these things. For some reason, they're using Devil Words Prada as the example, which I'm like,

you didn't even see the first one. You're 20. Yeah. But they were comparing set still. shot on film, but exposed like a photograph, with screenshots from a YouTube trailer. And I'm like, they're going to look different. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

Absolutely. You know, it's funny you say that when I remember Laura Janz, who's a colorist on House of Cards. I remember her saying, I was grading the first season I worked on that show. And she's like, oh, David's coming in tomorrow to grade the trailers. And I was like, oh, what's that all about?

She's like, well, he feels that the trailers have a different look and the trailers may need to be brightened a little bit and have a different thing to appeal to it. So you're a thousand percent right. Often those go out and the press photos go out different. I remember, like, oh, man, when we, when the press photos that went out for, you know, like one of those shows I worked with, I remember, like, they kind of like, someone actually sent, like, the log C photos out into the world initially.

And I remember, like, you know, like, everybody, like, kind of freaking out. out of it. And then like, and we all kind of just scramble. Like, oh, somebody didn't apply the look to it. But yeah, there's so many things in the chain and so many ways, you know, things can get messed up. And at the end of the day, like, yeah, whatever is on Netflix is the way. I feel like Netflix has been great with protecting the intention of cinematographers. And there's tons of great shows. So, yeah. Yeah. There's actually something I do want to get to about Black Rabbit about that.

But in terms of protecting and whatnot. I think the main thing that people are keying onto, the sort of unwashed masses, as it were, is that the, when you would watch an indie film back of the day, it looked that way because it had to, because everything's expensive and you can only stretch a dollar so much. Now, the bar for quality is so high that even on an inexpensive thing, you can give it the air of being not high quality, but high, you know, high. budget or whatever. So the floor has raised to a point where now people instead of, you know, it's the medium is the message thing where like you saw an indie film, you see clerks and you go, okay, this is like you're willing to forgive. Whereas if clerks was shot on the Venice, you know, and like had all the at all the time of the world, it wouldn't have the same thing. And I think that's what people are noticing is just that like more inexpensive stuff is

making them feel like it should be better than it is because of that. aesthetic difference. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting you say too, yeah, like clerks wouldn't have that charm if it was glossy. I mean, it needed, it was exactly what it needed to be. I think, you know, yeah,

I think a lot for us and even on this show, like, you know, you and I had endless conversations about, like, you're not, yeah, like not having the show look, you know, too pretty. And I think, like, I think where we're both going with our crafts So like, all right, we're not, obviously not trying to look at clerks, but we're, but we're not, you know, really trying to keep a check on ourselves of like, man, you can really, you know, you can really choke your project by getting obsessed with that idea. Like there's certain DPs I think that have just so many lights on set and always say. I remember there was, you know, my first time working with Robin Wright. And I was, and we were just about to shoot.

And I was like, Robin, I can make, I can make this, this scene like, you know, probably 50% better. if I get this one light in and, uh, you know, at the time it was, it was a scene with spacing. She's like, Kevin will rip your fucking head off if you bring a light in. She's like, it looks good. And like, and then there was this whole kind of conversation that Martin Allgren and I had. And Martin was like, yeah, I felt the same way at times when I was shooting. It's like, and as the DP, you have to feel like you've, you've made enough good decisions up to that point that, yeah, you can always perfect. But you're, you're probably all right.

And now I'll come back to this like, all right, like, I really, I really, I like, I like, I really, I like this idea of just lighting, like, lighting so much that, wow, how much can we even do on the turnaround without making, without making changes? And like, yeah, how can I, how can I kind of, you know, I don't want to say junk it up, but like, how do I, how do I have my work feel more real? And like, yeah, so I like kind of getting away from this, like, yeah, it's just, it's just so easy to perfect and, like, you know, where that is this badge of honor. But, like, you know, like, what's, what's, what's going to make your film feel more alive? Yeah. Well, and that that ties into kind of what I was going to get to, which was, you'd mention live grain and stuff. And we were talking about, you know, prescriptive looks and stuff and protecting DPs. I think this might be the most grain I've seen in a show in a while. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember like, I remember like, I remember like, I remember screening it like, like, yeah, Tim Stipp and a great colorist on the on the show who would also did Ozark. And Tim and I are like really like, man, we like, we got in, we really got a. We really got. I know it like together in fun ways about about the grade and and there were definitely times I was

like are we going are we going too far? Are we going? And then we both were kind of like, fuck it. Let's just do it. Let's just like let's just, let's just own it. You know, if we were shooting film, we would, we would feel that grain, you know, and let's, yeah, let's just have it feel gritty. It's supposed to feel great. Let's, you know, if people are noticing it or talking about it, that's probably a good thing. Yeah. Well, and that was the follow up was, going to be like did I think grain has now been um divorced from the idea of mimicking photochemical film I think there's a lot of people who were like it has to you know back in the day when we said the film look we just meant not mini dv you know we'd say professional

the film look was professional and now I think again I think it's forums as fault you know people go back and look like what am I supposed to do and they're like the film look and then they start trying to figure out how to yeah there's a whole cottage industry about replicating photochemical film. But in Black Rabbit, you know, it's all this grain. But I wouldn't say it,

you know, we're not, we're not blowing out halation like we're shooting synestil. Yeah. You know, we're not, or just, you know, deleting the halation layer or whatever. You know, we're not,

was that, where was that push and pull in the grade where you're like, are we, are we attempting to give it a literal film look? Or are we using the tools available to give it its own look? I think, yeah, I really think, you're probably,

Initially it was like, oh, wow, you know, the Venice is so clean, right? And we shot the whole thing in that, that the higher 3200 range, which we thought initially we gave it texture in it. But then, but then just thought that wasn't enough, you know, so. And so in bringing the grain in, I think it was really just giving it its own look. Yeah, because you're never going to get, it's never going to look like film, like when you're shooting digital, right? And I think there's, I think there's cameras that are amazing. I think the Alexa 35, which is an amazing camera that, that, that.

Sensor gives you something very close to 35 millimeter film, and I think you can, you know, you can push the hell out of it and break it up. But then, yes, at that point, it becomes its own thing. So I think, yeah, I think the intention of what Rabbit was to always, it to be its own look and just, just that it had grit. So I think more than, more than film grain or feeling like film, it was just, it needs to feel gritty and kind of nasty. Yeah.

I had read also Maybe this was just bad research But you had mentioned earlier about turning off lights and stuff But it was something about like lights breathing In the scene or something like that What was that about? Yeah, there's some fun stuff with that Like I mean I remember like

I mean I guess maybe an example of that Is you know the aftermath of the shooting You know when West gets shot I remember Justin had showed me something and I think in Snowtown. He's like, oh, like, we were shooting on film and I, and this, and, uh, we shot slow mo and,

and, and we got like a flicker. He's like, but I loved it. So, so there were, there's two examples in that in the, I remember, I was like, well, you know, we're having a hard time with the, you know, in the black, they brought those Ben Baller like things in, like neon signs for the VIP lounge. And so we ran, I did a test.

And when we ran that at off camera speed, they were just like, like, like. And then, And then we were like, well, what if we take the other lights? I remember going to George Seldon, like, Gaffir and saying, well, what if we, can we knock the other lights out of sync? The esterras and the other things that we have and, like, what other things? And then George was really great. Just went down a whole rabbit hole of like, okay, I'm going to analyze the wave and, like, we're going to figure out.

And I'm going to in the curve of the light. And so it's kind of fun in that scene, like, right? You feel like the lights are kind of breathing and pulsing. And then there was a singular moment where, where, um, where Vince, you know, breaks away and he's got the bag of money, and he's on the phone with Jake and Jake's went Mancuso. And I remember just to say, like, yeah, it was a lot of times I'd been on subways in New York,

and there's like a light that's been flickering. And I don't know if it happens anymore. I think they've kind of retrofitted all those lights now. So they're all like, it almost drives me crazy. Like there's LEDs everywhere. Like, you know, when you watch drive, like they have those old great sodium vapors. Now I miss that stuff so much.

anyway so we actually had a really hard time like getting a ballast in a new york city subway and like messing it up and again george is like i want a pain like i gotta figure this thing and we and we did and we kind of and in that scene you could see the lights kind of just you know fluctuating on him and and and breathing of it so um i'm not sure if that's what you were asking but those yeah yeah moments of yeah yeah of of yeah of the light breathing and and i think like yeah like again like looking back, like, you kind of look back after jobs, like, I almost wish I did a little more with that. I almost wish I, like, you know, chunk lights up a little bit more, did it in other places. Or like you said, like, you know, maybe like, like, was a little more like, you know,

there's another thing that happened, you know, kind of going down a rabbit hole with all this stuff. But, you know, there's, when you do TV, like, you know, we had two great operators on the show, Ariasler or ACAM and Matt Pebble, almost like doing ACAM operators. and they were both very different and Ari was very you know like he's almost like a little to me more like out of Fincher world

or like very like just really great where precise moves and these Z-axis moves and Adelaide and I mean he's good in many situations and Matt Pebler our B-CAM operator like you could throw a zoom this guy in a zoom in handheld and it's just like just be like the craziest shot

he'd be like Munich type shots like which is one of my favorite opera I think it's like the greatest operated film of all time. And I remember we threw him on the roof when after Vince puts the Coke and Babbitt's face at the bar and then he runs out

and there was this shot that Matt did where like Curzell's like man get on the roof and like you know get me something great where he went he busts out of the door and follow him. And he did this like crazy compound zoom thing that like zoomed in and he flew out of the door and he ran and he jumped in the car and he zoomed back in and like and

and a lot of those times those shots never get used. I know. And it's so crazy. And it's such a heartbreak. And there's like, I almost have a catalog. I don't feel like I got to send it to you of shots from Black Rabbit that are just these kind of like off like weird. Like there's a there's a shot when Anna gets interviewed by Lisa Klein.

It's, it's, uh, in one of Laurelini's episodes and they're, they're in this, you know, there's this kind of great tableau. And I found this like, I remember watching Carol. And there were these like Ed Lachman had these, great shots in mirrors and things. And I had this shot of Anna's face, like, kind of refracted with the reporter talking over it. There is a shot that made it like that in the pawn shop when Jake is pointing his watch and there's, like, it was a glass refraction.

You see that, you see his face, like, layered over the, you know, the guy from the pawn shop. But it's, it's amazing how, you know, whether it's time or X, you know, whether it's time or expectation or what, but like how so many of those things get left on the editing floor. And as a DP, you're like, wow, like, I really got it. But then you kind of know you did them. And I think, like, regardless, like, it helps move your craft forward. And you know somewhere in the universe that shot exists. Yeah.

But I would love to see that collection of cutting room floor shots if you have. I'll send them to you. Like, I have to get your email. And I'll send you a bunch of stuff. I remember Laura, Laura came to me after her. first cut. She's like, yeah, a lot of that stuff's not in there. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to, and fought to, fought to get a bunch of it, um, bad. And I think it's hard too, because you're on a, you're on a, you're on such a tight schedule, you know, right? Like with the shows and there's,

and there's a flow in TV of shots and certain, and I understand there's a certain continuity of, things. And at the same time, a ton of those shots made it in the show, which is great. You're never going to get everything. And I think if you're doing good work, a ton of great stuff is going to get left on the floor. Well, and also, whoever the director has a vision, you know, it's going back to the car commercial thing. Like, they've got a vision

and your sweet quadruple zoom didn't fit the tone. And you're like, yeah, but in a vacuum, sick. Yeah, yeah. There's other fun stuff. Like, there's like, there's kind of cool. Like, I know we talked, you knew, you picked up on it right away that the show kind of starts, you know,

a bit more dressed and, you know, it's not slick, but it's like a little more controlled and there's layers and you're looking through the brothers. And then Igor and I would talk constantly about, like, it wasn't so much that we're alternating dPs, it's like passing a baton

like a relay race, you know? Right. So you'd be like, okay, I'm finished the first thing. He's like, all right, so, you know, now you'll, as like we discussed, you'll start cracking the look a little bit in the second block, right? And so we'd kind of just start introducing some kind of little, you know, nastier light. Or there's a couple shots in Laura's episodes that I think are a kind of cool precursor to the end. You know, where, you know, one is when Campbell goes to Anna's apartment at the end.

And it's just a long, it's just a long, you know, steady shot of him, like, kind of traveling through the space. And we're closer to him. And it's not dressed. or when Vince goes to see Matt after he finds that he brought the Coke to the party. And it's just like it's a camera of two positions that are combo of two-wonners. And it was fun to kind of be like, okay, I'm just going to kind of like plant these things. So then as the series goes, you know, we're going to, we'll see more of it. And then eventually it will just be that.

Yeah. You won that ASC award for the finale, right? For the finale, yeah. Yeah. The funny thing about the finale, too, is it was kind of like to at least bring a couple things up that maybe a lot of people don't realize is there was a lot of debate about whether the Dinah Washington scene, the montage, you know, with her song at the end would be in the show. There was a, there was a, there was a discussion about whether, you know, you would see, you would. see Jake with the tape like here in his apartment hearing

Vince, you know, like from an old rehearsal and then maybe he just walked down the street with his son listening to an old song and like it would just kind of end there and and then Jason's like man the show is, it's a pretty heavy show and it's a pretty big gut

punch when Vince jumps off the roof and he's like I don't know are the viewers going to be really pissed if we just right are we just This one. Yeah. What are we going to do?

Yeah. Are we going to do that? And I got to say he was a thousand percent right. And personally, I really wasn't sure. I was like, ah, do we want to do that? Do we want to do this montage? Like Justin, I think, felt the same way. Justin was like, I don't know, man.

Maybe we should just, you know, it happens. Let's just, let's do that thing with the tape. Let's just end it there. And Jason was really, like, he's really, and by the way, I mean, it couldn't be a great enough collaborator couldn't love the crew more um you know jude too like the two and then were just just a dream to work with um and he he really stuck to his guns with that's like now i think we need to give the audience a relief we can't we can't we can't do this and so and when i when it came time for me to do the um asc submission like i i remember i did a bunch of um a bunch of pieces uh

you know whatever you could put like a minute together here there whenever you and I remember using the scene in the Chinatown Mall when I'm getting chased, which I'd really liked and making the way back to the rabbit. And then a piece of that montage thinking like, I really like where this landed. I really think this was powerful emotionally. And then, you know,

and I think it was a really cool thing to see Jake not have that weight of Vince and all the pressure and then taking that job of walkers and there's that water of him, you know, when he goes to his job as a bartender. and I think I'm like Damn man Jason you fucking know your shit man Like you really

That was really He's done a lot of work Yeah he's really And he's really great like that He's very big on propulsion too You know there was originally There was episode Uh

For I think he started with A 10 minute scene Of Roxy and Thalia Like this girl that was her mentor And like Roxy leaves the rabbit You know she's she's pissed that, you know, that this guy, Jake's letting Jules, like, you know, drug these girls and still come to these things. And he's kind of, like, do you think he's a scoundrel?

Which is a great concept of the show is that you realize that both brothers are equally screwed up, right? Like, they're not, you know, you realize that, that, that, that, that, that, that Jake is just as fucked up as Vince. Um, so, uh, we shoot this 10-minute scene. And it's the first thing, it's the first thing I shoot on the show with, um, Oh, wow. and Laura and I like and and I remember thinking like wow we're shooting in Connecticut like country like I'm starting the show with with this scene with like in this green area and she's here and it's this kind of like you know she's finding herself and the slightly romantic thing with her and her her mentors played like by Catherine Irby and it was all

it was great but it was it was you know Jason was really right in the sense that it wasn't the propulsion that the show needed. And I remember seeing an edit and he came back to Laura and I and he goes, you know, I kind of, I pulled it down to this montage of them cooking together. And then, you know, it's kind of

laid over the dinner conversation. And then where Thalia says to her, like, look, you know, you're the brains behind this and it's your cooking. And they're like, it's time for you to take over and challenge him. And I remember thinking, it was another one's moments with Jason. and I was like, man, he was right, you know?

And, like, you, Lord and I had to let go of this, like, this kind of cool little short film that we made that almost got replaced in the show. And so he's, like, on top of everything, he's so good at propulsion saying, like, what? If we're not moving, if we're not moving the show forward, then, you know, yeah, we, I don't know. Like, it's really harsh sometimes, but you just have to lose something. Yeah. Well, I have to let you go here in a minute because I got another interview. in like an hour so it's fine. But I did want to ask, like, on top of all that and you getting the ASC award, it was something I never got to ask anyone.

And this is a good time to do it, which is, you know, there's the idea of making a film and it's like Oscar bait, you know, where you're like, I know I'm going to win the Oscar for this because it's whatever, you know. When you're submitting for the Emmys or the ASE Awards or whatever, is there is something in you that is a, a. tempting to it. Is it you thinking it's your best work or are you like if I, is there like, I know they're going to like other DPs are going to like this more than something that's more like, I don't know, collectively. Yeah. You know what I mean? Man, that's such a great question.

So I'm pretty sure that every DP that submits for ASC or Emmy or Oscars absolutely pains themselves over this question. And I think when you first start putting your clips together, you probably be thinking like, well, what's going to attract? What's going to, you know, what are the people going to like? And I think, you know, even for myself,

it kind of fell into that. And then I remember like cutting my thing together and then eventually coming the point and it's like, I don't give a fuck. I'm just going to cut what I think's cool. I'm going to cut, you know, I'm just going to, I'll live and die by that. And if I don't, you know, I also like, you know,

would have been equally happy if Igor won. And I think Igor's work on the show is brilliant. And in some ways, like, I just got, like, towards the end of the show, more shit happens and, like, maybe just through dumb luck, you know, I got scenes that just, you know, like them getting chased all over the city and shot at and all this stuff and then that montage at the end.

But I found that, like, yeah, those were just, and the requirements are weird. Like, you could use, like, a minute or two minutes here or whatever. And then you have to submit like for the ASEs like a five or six minute continuous clip. And it becomes this crazy Tetris game if you're trying to figure like, all right, well, I can use this. But if I find the six minute clip's going to suck if I use those. So I'm like, I kind of want to, you know, so I was like what's the best, what's the best six minutes I feel like I did on this show, which is probably a good way to look at this that I just think is really cool if I lean it out. And I'm just not going to give a shit about what I think looks pretty or this or what other people think.

So I think for myself, that that's where I landed. And in this instance, yeah, maybe got lucky. Well, yeah, I use music as an analogy all the time, but I imagine it's kind of a pop versus jazz thing. Like if you've been playing music for a long time, you know music so intrinsically that jazz becomes interesting and pop becomes a little old hat, whereas the general public much prefers pop, you know?

when you're submitting for these things, I imagine you do have to have that pop versus jazz kind of discussion with yourself. Oh, it's crazy. And like there's, it's funny because there's so many DPs, friends of mine, was like, can I send you my clip? Can you watch it? Like, and then sometimes I'll write back to them. I was like, this is definitely not your best work. You know, and they'll be like, well, I thought this. And like, you said, well, I thought this would be. And I was like, no, no, no. I think you have, I think there's, I think there's better scenes. And then I might like say a couple of things or whatever and they'll go to some other friends and it's it's kind of a me i think such an amazing thing about the as we all sort of like we do talk all the time and we do like these things

but um but i'll be amazed sometimes i think it's so hard for a dp to pick and um and submit because you're just you're so close to your work so i think it is good to also ask a friend and say you know What did you think? What hit you? Yeah. Well, like I said, man, it's a phenomenal show, and I really appreciate you spending the time to chat with me about it. And that felt like five minutes. So hopefully everyone enjoys that as much as I did. Awesome.

I'm going to ramble too much. No, this is the show for rambling. Trust me. I really enjoyed it, Kenny. Awesome. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Cool.

Take care, brother. Take care. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny Macbillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.