Frame & Reference Podcast - 252: "One Spoon of Chocolate" Cinematographer Brandon Lee Cox

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

My good friend Brandon Cox RETURNS for episode 252 of Frame & Reference to talk about his work on RZA's "One Spoon of Chocolate" and a whole lot more.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And welcome to this episode 252 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my friend Brandon Lee Cox, DP of one spoon of chocolate. Enjoy. Where did you film chocolate? We filmed it in Atlanta, in and outside of Atlanta. We filmed it in Atlanta. There's some stages there where we filmed. And then we filmed in a small town called Covington, where they filmed, um,

vampire diaries and a couple other things there. They have a little small town there. It's really funny like in the town. They're like, oh, this is the vampire diary is like a milkshake place or whatever. Or this is the bar or whatever. And so, yeah, they had a little like really cool old town there that we filmed in. So yeah. You redressed it as, let me get this right.

Cairnsville. Cairnsville, yeah. Cairnsville, Ohio. Yeah. Yeah, that was all, that was all rigid. That was all Rizzo. It was a made up, made up place that Riza created for the movie. It took about two city signs to go by for me to go, oh, Cairnsville.

Like, I immediately read it as like Kernsville. And then I was like, okay, well, there is a lot of like little. I did shoot a sign, but they, they didn't use it. So I was like, all right, cool. Because I made it more like, here it is. Right. It's better that it's in the background because I got a chuckle out of it after, you know, passed by. Everybody does when they see it with an audience.

everybody does. I mean, and, you know, like talking about the movie, you know, he wrote it, directed it. It was something that he always wanted to do. It's obviously a throwback to exploitation films of the 70s. And, and those type of films, that's the way, you know, they're always like using the N-word profusely and saying, boy and, you know, you know, hey, you, and all these ridiculous, you know, slanders of a certain race,

which is like not cool. but it's part of that, it's part of that universe. It's part of that world. That's the way it was. And so he was just playing on that with, obviously, you could see signs of like Tarantino in there with the red apple cigarettes and the titles and having his name on there and the use of music

and how they use it. So yeah, that was pretty cool. Yeah, that made me think of like four things. But I did want to ask, like, obviously I assume Tarantino was not on. on set every day. No, no, no, no. This was always an afterthought.

He was going to, it was never really a thing. I never knew that he was going to come on and do this. This was something that happened after we finished the movie. But they're friends, though. They're really close friends. They've been friends for a while. And so he told him he was going to do it. He asked for his permission to use the look, the red apple cigarette.

He was like, hell yeah. You know, he was, of course, just like, of course, do what you want, you know. and it was only until he finished the movie. It was about two weeks before we were going to Tribeca last year, and he sent him the movie. Well, they actually sat down and watched the movie, and he called me and told me, but he also told me that, like,

David Fincher would watch the movie with him. I almost had a heart attack in the street. I was like, what? I was like, already having enough with Quentin watched the movie. And then he said Fincher was watching the movie because I think they were working on the new Cliff Booth movie. The Cliff Booth movie, yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, that was crazy, but he told me, he said, Godfather, which is, what does he call is Quentin?

He said, Godfather went nuts for the movie. He loved it. He just couldn't stop talking about it. And I was just like, well, that's pretty cool. And he's like, we may have some good news later on. And then around January of this year, he called me and said, yeah, Quentin wants to put his name on the movie. I was like, that's amazing. So that was how long.

that kind of brings up what I was going to ask, but it's almost cooler that it went that way, which is I figured there was like nods to Tarantino because he was the executive producer, but I guess that's just how Rizzo likes to do shit. Yeah. Probably stole some stuff just through osmosis, but the whole time I was like,

yeah, I get why like this feels in his universe almost. Exactly. And that was, that was, I don't know, if it was, you know, psychologically, I wasn't thinking about it, but I knew we were kind of in the universe, because with the red apples, again, I keep saying that, but in the kind of feel of what it was going for. I wasn't purposely trying to make a grindhouse movie.

I mean, it wasn't, but I knew that, I knew in the writing and the story, it was that, but I was just trying to do something a little different. And then when it came time, when I saw the film, and I started coloring it, I was like, I started to lean into the heavy grain and just giving the colors like a little offness and all that. And so then I was just like, screw it. This is what we did.

This is what we're going for. And so I did that. But yeah, and it was very fortunate. I mean, I feel very fortunate to be able to, you know, have a movie for one to work with Rizza again and two to have his name one. It's pretty special, you know. Yeah. Well, even some of the like, oh, go ahead. Oh, well, I was just going to say, and hold that thought, please, because I want to hear what you have to say.

Even the way it was presented, Quentin said, take the movie, there's a place in Mexico, they can make the DCP and make a print because someone showed it to Vista. That was all him. As you know, he owns, so we permitted it to Vista. And it was on 35. So they took the DCP, they made a print. It was awesome. I'd never seen it like that before. It was, I love the way it looked.

It added to the grain. It added to the experience. It was awesome. So, yeah, that was another thing he rarely pushed was that. You know, he gave us a two-week run there, which was awesome. That's sick. Also, it, I feel like seeing it on film just by, like, the cadence. Like, I saw at the new Bev, this was a while ago, but the Matrix.

Yeah. And I had forgotten it had been a long. time since I'd seen a film projection. And it's, it does change things for the viewer. And that film on film on celluloid probably did enhance the sort of, I know you said it's not a grindhouse film, but that that exploitation film, the, that vibe is better presented, I would, I would assume in celluloid. It is.

That's what I, that's what I experienced when I watched it. Because I saw it with an audience about, I think, four times. and every time people cheered certain things and all that, but that was the first time I saw it on the film print, and the sound was perfect, the audience was great, and it just, not to tube my own horn, it was my favorite presentation of the movie,

the way it looked, seeing it on that print, so I'm going to try to do another thing like that because it wasn't, literally it was 10 grand to do that movie on print, which is not a lot of money at all. No, and, you know, I know photo cam, it's big time bucks.

But there's also, I've noticed like on the smaller end, there was this YouTuber. I don't know. He's a DP someone who just did this kind of like, I guess it was a demo on. I only saw it on Instagram. I assume he has a YouTube video. But he did like this short for a like a dokey short for this film lab, like the dip and dunk photographic film. And then he sent it off to get laid into. celluloid and then re-scanned.

And then that was another presentation of like, look at what you can do. And it's like Greg Frazier doesn't have to be the only person who can do this. You only have to make. If you're going to, if you're going to just scan it back and present it digitally, that is a relatively low-cost investment. Because their picture's already locked. You only need to make a couple reels, if that, it depends on the length of the film. And you can get that quote-unquote look.

Yeah. And it was, I was, at first I was like, well, shit, I didn't know if I wasn't shooting for that. I didn't know that was going to happen because I had priced out. Like, I know, I know David Cole, who's Greg's color colorist color timer at photocam. And I've known David for a long time. He's incredible colors. And he told me the whole sort of process of what they did on Dune and what they did on Dune part

two and what they did on a Batman. And I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. he's like, but it's incredibly expensive, you know, it's super expensive. And I was like, God, that's probably out of reach. And then, um, as long behold, this thing came out, quit and found these guys. And he also just had Joe Carnahan do it, um, for the, for the, the, the, the rip. Because I guess he just showed it there. And I think he had, you know, he's sending all these, these filmmakers to go down there

because I think it's, there's a, it's still a way of sort of preserving, you know, the old school, Philippine, in a movie theater because, I mean, I saw most the movies I love.

I saw a Matrix on Phil, you know, when I saw it, all of them, and it wasn't digital projection. And so there's something

about that, that nostalgia of the 24 frames for a second flicker that just, I don't know, it just, I think the sign wave sends to your brain, it relaxes it and you see it better.

I think it puts you into the movie more. Well, and also it's the thing of, you know, the same reason that, some people prefer to shoot film and then if you're going to shoot digital a lot of times folks will detune the shit out of a lens or whatever because like using the matrix as an example I saw it in IMAX digital for the like 20th anniversary or something sure and I didn't know

I didn't notice until seeing it that high resolution like how cheap some of those sets were you know like you could really see into certain details that I had no you know when you're going through the phone call at the beginning. Like there's actually little matrix text in the back that gets, you know, kind of washed away if it's in a lower resolution or whatever. But, you know, I'm like, oh, there's stuff back there. And that was cool. But like that room that Trinity's in where she kicks everyone at the beginning.

Yeah. That's like made out of cardboard or a plywood. Yeah. And you can't tell. But when it's on film, it kind of just mooshes away, you know. And I think when there's information restriction, your brain, same reason animation is sometimes more easy to get into then live action is because when there's information restriction in some form, you're willing to give yourself up and meet the art where it's at versus when it's presented

in a very real, you know, like something like F1, I think did a great job of being incredibly high resolution and incredibly there, but not everyone can do that. Yeah, I think that works because it worked for one for the sport of what most people watch F1 at home, obviously. And if you can afford a ticket, you know, you need a loan to get that God bless you, yeah. Yeah, God bless you. Donate a kidney, but I think that worked for that, for that resolution and IMAX especially. But yeah, what you're saying, I think, I think, yeah, 100%.

I mean, that definitely, that's wild to think. I never saw the Matrix in that way, but it would make sense to see because you're getting more information, obviously. You're like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. That doesn't look right. Yeah, oh, that isn't for everything, you know? No, no, no. You know what? I've been rewatching X-Files.

Same thing. Where you're like, I... Actually, it's really jarring when you can tell they couldn't get the film to scan back. And they're going off like an up-resed tape. And sometimes it's in the same scene. And you're just like, you know, they're cutting between, you know, clearly lost footage and the stuff they can find. And you're like, damn. Like, this is...

I love it for preservation, you know, because, like, film can deteriorate whatever. having ones and zeros represent it is great. But I do think, and going back to the, you know, quote unquote, the kids, I think the idea of experiences are becoming more valuable. Yeah. And seeing a movie on film in a theater seems to be stocks way up on that. I think, I think that you're on to something. Because I think that the, this generations missed the experiences that we had, you know.

And I think that there's. so used to this that it's it's it's sort of dumbed down their brains but they're getting sick and tired of it and they want to experience something for the first time that we did and i and yeah it's cool if you can see like what do you think the odyssey selling out or you think you know the event movies which are going to be on 70 mill those those are already sold out because the kids want to experience that even you know obviously the film the film people like us, yeah, we want to see it in 70 and IMAX and all that. But I think they want to be a part of that because it's an event.

It's something that they can say, yeah, I was there. I saw that, you know. Yeah. You see it in pop-ups too, like, you know, restaurants and clothing drops and stuff. Like, those still crush. And then you try to say like, oh, I opened up a new restaurant. No one cares. I opened up a new restaurant in someone else's restaurant.

It's not the same genre. Everyone's like, I must go, you know? It's so true. It's so true. I mean, you know, I tried, I really tried to shoot one spoon on film. That was a, that was on the table. That's a lot of movie to shoot on film. There's a lot of movies shoot on film.

And I did the pricing and I called it Eric Stilberg. He was a buddy of mine. He was shooting a Saturday Night Live movie there. So I said, hey, who are your contacts? Because he was shooting Saturday Night Live movie on film. He was 16, I think it was. And I was like, yeah, give me there your contacts for Kodak. I had Panavision on and they were like, yeah, we'll make it work.

But I just couldn't. I hadn't shot film in such a long time. That's why I started on. And I was like, I was how much of foot? What? And I was used to that. I was used to being way cheaper. And it was just like, oh, my God, I was doing the math.

There's no way we can afford this. There's no absolutely no way. That's going to be like $300,000 more than what they're going to tell me no instantly. Yeah. And so I looked at it and I know, like, I know I kind of know the way. way Riza shoots. And you know, you've got to be disciplined, obviously, when you shoot film. I mean, if you have loads of it, of course, you know, you can go.

But if you're on a strict budget, it just wasn't feasible for us. So I just went away from that and went to the area Alexa, the classic Alexa for that. Yeah. And you had some nice hawks on it, too, those like guys. Yeah, yeah. We had those vintage 74 lines. Man, those were sexy. And that was luck, too, because Caslow just happened to have them.

They're always gone. They're always gone. And for some reason, they were there. And I said, hey, can we get these? I was, yep, go for it. And then we did. And I was happy I used them. They were fun, a lot of fun to work with.

Yeah. How many days did you shoot that thing? We had, 27, 28 days, something like that. That's not enough. That's a big. ass movie for less than a month. Yeah. I mean, and you know, it, it was funny. I was talking about, I was talking about this very thing with a friend of mine the other day about like how the business has gone from, you know, if you had 25 to 35 days, you were good. And if then all of a sudden

the certain producers came in and just, oh, 14 days and 10 days, it's just like, it's just nonsense, you know. And just now when you're saying, oh, I got 26 days, you're like, oh, man, that's a lot, but it's really not. I just used all my music, video experience and all the movies that I'd done that were 15 days and less to pull this off. Because still, it was a lot of movie, you know, there's a lot of movies. And Rizzo paid for the entire thing. It was all from him. There's no outside producers. He paid for the whole thing.

He wanted to do that. That was what he wanted him. think he had taken the script to some people that were like, nah, they're not interested. He's like, screw it, I'll just pay for myself. And he has, you know, thank God he has a means to do that. But, um, and he trusted me and we'd work together once before. But, uh, yeah, it was a tight schedule, man, you know.

What are some of the keys to keep that, uh, rate of speed up? Because I imagine you can apply those lessons to anything. Like you said, like, you can work backwards, you know, if you're on a music video or a short film that you only, have so many resources. Like, I'm sure some of those tools scale. Yeah. Yeah, no.

I mean, one of the main things is just being able to leapfrog ahead and having, you know, I knew certain days that, for example, the sequence where it starts the chase where he is in the neighborhood and then he runs in the field and they go through the to the junkyard, that whole sequence. That was the biggest lighting sequence of that movie. And I knew going into that. With all those cars. Exactly.

in the huge shirk yard. I mean, that place was so big. It was so big. And I didn't even do it justice how big it was. It was enormous, man. I was going to ask if that was VFX, because that's a shit ton of cars. No. It is insane.

I'll send you location stills, man. This place is insane how big. I just could not get over. If you wanted to go to a certain place, they said, oh, follow me in the car. And there was like a path that we went on. And you just go and you're like, oh, yeah, you need. need a carburetor from a Toyota Cambrey, they have it all listed.

It's like, that's, that's row 95 over 7B6, whatever. It just went on forever. And so my gaffer, Eric Monk, who's just an amazing, talented dude, shout out to him. We went there and I looked and I said, well, okay, I think we need like three lifts. He's like, yeah, four. And we're going to put image.

movers on them and I said I know I won an 18 here and he's like and have you ever used image movers for nighttime? I said no I'm one only like that concert lights yeah exactly and I said I don't use those he's like no no dude trust me on this and I said okay I went with his I went with his recommendation and dude I had saved my ass so much because you could spot and flood those things so fast move them focus it spot and you just take out a whole like tree line just boom there it is and then hit it over there and just hit that. So we just use those. And I used a big 18K for in a junkyard and in the field.

And then, you know, Mother Nature did its love for us because the fog just happened. It just sits right on top of that when normally rises because the temperature has to be right. There has to be so many like things to go for that. And we got extremely lucky with that. So those are the things that worked for that. But that was one of those things where, yeah, that looked. was just enormous, man. Yeah.

No, that was probably the big question I had was like, that's a huge set piece. Like, you've got all these really cool fight scenes. You got 400 million locations. Yeah. And then there's that. And I was like, this is like, it doesn't appear low budget. Obviously, part of the gig is it like you're saying, an exploitation film. Yeah, yeah.

Like, it's supposed to have that flavor of it. but it doesn't feel low budget all. And I was like, is that where the whole budget went? What's like securing all those? I assumed you had to have like moved a bunch of cars in or VFXed it or something. Because that location did a lot of work. I'm telling you right now, there's no VFX in that scene. The, the, um, the VFX in that scene that is when the car flips, um, and there's like a spark.

That's like that was like animated. And then we blew up the car. And then, um, Yeah, that was it, man. And then, like, I filmed certain things. And, you know, the running in the field was, that was practical. Then the driving, exterior driving, that was practical. It was the car drivers.

Now the actual actors driving, that was poor man's. And then when they flipped the car and you see the car go over, I had the car on a gimbal. And it could spin. And the actors wanted to do it. Right, because it's a little roller coaster. Yeah, exactly. And they were like, we have to do it. I was like, all right, cool.

And we locked the camera in and they went for a ride, man. It was awesome. And then it cuts back and then we're back. And when it wrecks, when the car wrecks, when it stops, I think that was where we had to move a few cars around. They had, they have like a, like a scissor lift. They could just pick the cars up and move them over there so you can make a little space. So I think there was a couple cars in a way,

and they just moved them out of the way so we'd have a little area where it could, you know move around and pulled the body out but they uh right there i had a petty bone and eric put uh like a little moon box above there just to give that this just a nice little something there and i think we had like uh 20 esteras um all certain color they're all lined up and i said i'd be like turn off half turn off more this way and we balanced it out and then we just hit it with with the with the lights in the background and whatnot and then that's how we did that that was That was, you know, and that was a biggest set piece, man. That was what that was.

And I knew I said, listen, this is where your big electric expenses coming is on this show. Right. This, that was, I think it was two days, two days we did that. Now, the rotissary and the driving of the interior, so we did that on a different day. But the actual, what you see is the cars and the chase and the flip over and the explosion. That was two days. Damn. Yeah.

I want to see someone use on What was the show? Marcus Forder did this show with Numi Rapice Oh Space show Yeah oh oh man I know I know your talk

Or something But he's my friend too So it's fine enough I can forget I love his work man He's great He's so good But his he told me that for the I want to

see someone else use this because I want to know if it's possible in not the setting they were in. So they were in like the Arctic or whatever. And for this moon box, instead of pointing anything down, he put a bunch of, I guess, like eight. No, there are cream sources in all facing outward. And because it was snowing, it just used the entire atmosphere as diffusion. So it just lit up the entire world. And I was like, I wonder like, when you're saying that it's like foggy and stuff, I'm like, could we do that?

And also, on a lower budget, could you do that with like only five Astaire's instead of like 28 or 40 or whatever you used, you know? Of course you could. I mean, of course you could. I mean, you'd be shocked how much light ester was put out when you're in a dark place and you just fire them up. I mean, they're incredible. When I was in Thailand, I had, I mean, I was shocked if the lights I could get there was just blown away. Like, I don't get paid a dime from Aperture or, what's the other company that they're associated with? I forget the name.

What it is. Aperture. Oh, God, why not thinking about it? Hold on the lower end. They just, they just split off, Amaran. Amaran, right? So they made the, you know, the floaty, they're like a cushion or like a one of those things called, man. Infinimats.

There he goes. Yep. And the infinimats, I had like, oh, man, I had so many of those, all different sizes. And I never used them before. And I always wanted to, man, I used the hell out of those lights. I'm, I would put one, I'd put a small one, like a four by four, up on a lift just to light a street. And you, and I go, what is that? What's the percentage at it?

It's like, oh, boss, it's like five. I'm like five percent. Yeah. That's what's putting out. My God. like, what is 100 look? I could turn it out. I was like, geez, turn it down. It looks like it's daytime. You know, it's crazy. The lights are insane. I mean, they're just incredible lights. And anyway, I had to light this. There's a part in this movie. I had to like this whole big resort at night.

And he had 10 cream source lights, made a whole bank of them, put them up on the thing, lifted it. Very similar kind of like that. But we were just using that as the key. And I had, at a atmosphere out there and fog would roll in and it just made this like soft haze diffusion that just looks so cool man i was just again was just being lucky at the right time and the right place and it worked great and he's like oh yeah i did this with bill on uh um send help we did this a lot we would use us and so i i was like bring it you know what else you got in your bag you know it's so it's fun in that sense did i love uh i i feel like my interests as this show have gone on have changed both with the amount of work I've done,

you know, but also, uh, you know, sometimes it's really hard to interview someone and be like, oh, what'd you use for the interior? And they're like fucking six spy,

soft source. It's kind of the same thing every time. Yeah, but every single person does nighttime differently. And it's been like my new, like, I'm catching Pokemon now where it's just like figuring out everyone's nighttime thing. Because it's like, yeah, you can get really invented with daytime stuff, but like the way that you present night

scream so much more about the content of the script, I think, or can. And that's where a lot of interesting stuff can have, not only in its execution, but like what you're trying. Like on the Lord of the Flies, because they couldn't have the kids at night. They shot everything infrared. And so infrared was night. And I was like, look at that. That's cool. That's awesome.

That's awesome. And it's like, you know, look at what Autumn did on sinners outside of the jute joint. You should have a big moonbox up there. But it just looks so good. I mean, it just looks so good. But, yeah, I mean, that's why we're all different is we bring our experience to it or what we think feels like night because everybody's different, man, you know? And you've been so fortunate to interview so many great guests, dude.

I mean, I've listened to a lot of you. And it's awesome. I mean, I'm so happy for you to be able to talk to. Fraser, talk to Autumn, talk to Bob Richardson, talk to whoever, you know, and that those guys are just filled with, you know, tons of ways of doing it. I mean, and you're going to see, not everybody's going to do it the same. Everybody's going to do it different. Well, and that's the great part too, is like, at least obviously doing the interviews, but just putting them out there, the idea being to show people like, hey, don't go on Reddit and say, how do I do this, unless you have a very

specific, like if you need a solution, then sure, someone might have it. But there's a lot of like, how do I make this look cinematic? And I'm like, I know it's going to take you 500 hours to listen to the whole podcast, but you'll notice that there isn't a cinematic. It's all cinema. You know, when there's a script and when there's actors and when there's production design, that's cinematic. And it's up to you to decide what that looks like. It's not stealing someone else's shit unless you're supposed to but you know a second unit or or whatever yeah i i remember i remember this really vividly i i when i went to a f i was fortunately a f i and yonnitch kubinsky came and he was showing us which was really amazing he showed us his um camera test for amistad and they were all on film

and he rolled them up and his camera tests weren't the simple here's a chip chart here's a gray scale here's all this it wasn't that he basically was would they go on the universal lot. They'd pick like an old-looking colonial building. He'd light it the way he would light the scene. And they put all the information on a slate saying, you know, this film stock, this stop, whatever, push cool, EnR, whatever they're doing to the film. And they'd do a shot where they'd have like an African-American person and they'd have like a colonial, you know, white person. And so you could see the difference of, you know, how much light I need.

And it had this, it would look like a Spielberg movie. They had the godlight coming to the window and this light from a candle and the camera would push in. And you were like, holy shit, dude, your camera test looks as almost as good as the movie does. Seriously. And it was amazing. And I remember somebody's like, well, what did you shoot? What stock did you shoot? And I don't want to shoot because then they think, because Johnny Schuminski shoots that stock,

I should shoot the same stock because he shot. it. And he said something, he's like, listen, I shot this EXR 320 stock because, didn't I make it anymore. And he's like, I shot it because it did this, this, and this for me. And I did, you know, I skip bleach the film, I ENR'd the film. I did all these different things. That just because I'm doing that, doesn't mean you should do that. You should do what you. And he kept saying, test, test. And I, at the time, I always thought, oh, that's the way to do it, is shoot the same stock that he does. But he's absolutely right. You're not going to do what he's going to do. And the film's not going to react the same way. You want it to react the way he does it because

he's going to do it way different than you are. And so it's the same thing. Like I said, to put this towards a lighting. And I mean to go all around in that story. But, you know, I learned that's what the show's for, man. You know, and that's what I learned that, yeah, exactly. Okay, I may idolize this guy. I may want to shoot like this guy. But just because I want to do that, doesn't mean that I'm going to get the same results that he's going to get. And he's right, dude. And ever since that, I was like, okay, just do what you feels right.

Don't do that because he says so. But it was, man, I wish I could show you those tests. It was so good. It was so good. It also, the issue, like, let's say you really love, like, I made no secret that I'm a big Fincher fan, you know. And early on in my career, I tried to take, not necessarily that, like, I never shot red or anything but you know not that but certainly like the ways you move camera the precision

um that kind of stuff and then i started getting work where that was inappropriate and i would try to force i'm like no no no the best in the business does it this way and it's not even the fact that that's the issue the issue is that narrative language does not fit this for that story video, documentary, whatever. Yeah. And that's sort of, I think, a lesson that I've learned that as well. I've been the same thing. It'd be like, oh, well, this shot's like a Spielberg thing.

Or, oh, we do this. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, that language doesn't work for this. It works for that. You know, it doesn't work for this, but it may work for this. And you learn those things. And then you're like, okay, yeah, why, why am I trying to bring this to something that doesn't need it? But it's, it is. It's a learning lesson.

And it's, it's interesting. But yeah, I mean, I get it, man. I totally get that. It's also a bit of self-consciousness, right? Like, especially if you're shooting narrative or a project that's going to take a long time, like you really want to put your best foot forward. Sure. Like, I've been planning on for this moment forever.

And it's like, well, you got the job and it's not that. And you go, shit. Yeah, I got to bring it somewhere else, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But I think just in shooting, you know, one spoon, which was cool because Brazil would, he would give me these, like, he showed me this, this movie called Dr. Butcher, right? Okay. And it's this Italian horror, zombie crazy movie.

And he's like, yeah, pull up on YouTube. And I watch it. And I'm like, this is fucking crap, man. What is this? And he's like, no, man, look at it. And he's like, I know it's crap, but he's like, but this is why I wanted to do for these scenes where they're removing the organs. Yeah. Watch this.

And they had a scene very similar to that. And then I started, I was like, oh, okay. Then I start looking at it with like a really like, you know, a cinematic eye of like a cinematographer's eye. And I'm like, and it's like, I've said this before. He's like, I got to remember when he saw this. He probably saw this where he's like 10 or 11 years old. So that was like a thing. but he wanted to bring that sort of feeling of people being shackled down

and somebody's removed in their organs. That's what he referred to. And it was a exploitation movie as well. So I tried to bring some of that, Dr. Butcher, into the modern thing. And I use a split diopter. I know. I got the Todd Vizeri split diopter alarm went off. I was like, oh, someone screenshot this.

And now, man, now that I did it, there, I do the last two movies. Oh my God. The last movie I just did. I've done, I did, I counted. I think I did 15 split diopter shots in the last movie I just finished. Good. It was so much fun.

Should have been 16. Yeah, it should have been 20. And they're all going to be in the one by the directors are like, they're all going to be in the fucking movie, you know. And it's fun because we're trying to like find cool ways of like really using them. And I was going back looking at the palm of film. and looking at early Spielberg and trying to find all these sort of like split the after shots at work.

And it was so much fun to do, man. I was like, having a blast. And my guys were like, this is the after shot? I was like, I think so. Yeah, let's go. You know, it's just in your Contera vest. You're just like, I got it. Don't worry.

We got it. Don't need to go to the truck. But yeah, we did it. We did a couple there, man. It was fun. Another thing I really liked about the film is like, obviously it's a modern film. Like, it's today, quote, unquote.

Sure. But I think a lot of times people can get a little too complacent with not how easy it is to light things, but how easy it is to get an exposure and then just match, match everything. And you guys did not only great work with contrast and really like sharp, crispy highlights that I thought looked, you know, not digital, but just looked like hot and nice. Yeah. But also great use of color. I thought all the color was very very naturalistic for what, but I imagine they were tubes, you know, sterotubes and you're dialing

green and the blues and all that. Yeah, that was fun, man. Yeah, it was funny because on the, on my, my DIT was like, I was, you know, live grading while we were doing it and everything was sort of warm and more cyan and I was doing the bullshit shit I always do. It's not bullshit, but it's like, you know, it's like,

like the Tony Scott and all that. And when I got to the grade, I started to bring that in. And Rizz was like, nah, no, no, no, man. I want to go more blue. I don't want to go more green. I was like, blue. Okay. And I, because it's closer to a color I don't like.

It was magenta. I can't stand magenta. And so I had to ride that line. And, and, but I appreciate that that you said that because it was fun. It was like trying to find that. I tried to, uh, what the color is try to put like, almost like a film like print look in there so the highlights kind of rolled off at the at the shoulder you know and they're and they did exactly what you were saying like they'd bloom and they'd find that sort of the sort of the point of

no return which is gone but i wanted that to roll off and then fall in in in the in the shoulder and their toe so i was trying to still keep that aesthetic of the grain i added the grain and have have that sharpness but when you wanted it and so yeah no i appreciate that man that was that was fun to do, you know. That actually just reminds me. Yeah, it reminded me that someone I was going to ask earlier is when you did the film print, did you have to adjust the grade at all? Or did you just go straight to the print?

They didn't, which that's the first thing I wanted to know was like, do we have to adjust this? Do we need? They're like, no. And I have to, I'm going to do my research because I want, I have to talk to these guys more about this because I have another thing coming up. And I had a little bit of dialogue with the guys there. I didn't get to talk to them that much.

And it was, you know, it was pretty much a one for one, man. And I thought that maybe it had to have to, oh, can we bring this up? Do we have to bring this up? Do we have to bring this down? There wasn't any of that. And that was what was cool, you know? And I don't know if they did that because, like, again, I didn't have that much dialogue with them. But I'm going to call these guys because I really want to do it again.

And I can find out the information. for you, I'll send it to you. Sure. Yeah, because I kind of want to... I kind of want to get into commercials more, just to get more reps in, honestly. Like, I love shooting doc. I never thought I would be a doc guy.

And now that I've done it so much, I'm like, this is the best. It's like film school again, where you're just shooting with your friends. You know, it's harder because you don't have any support, really. But it is more fun. Like, like, our producer, like, make sure that every... Like, we were in Paris, we were in Spain. We were in D.C. We were in Dallas.

And you always make sure we can... get at least one day to just go do something. Go do stuff, you know, go to the Louvre, whatever. And I'm like, this is great because I bet on a regular feature like no one's doing this. No, I mean, you're pretty much like your days off and you're like sleeping or you're just catching up on, oh, I got to do laundry. Oh, I got to pay bills or I, you know, you try to go see a movie. I remember I always try to go see a movie and I end up falling asleep in the, which is so bad. Yeah, so cold.

And it's not because of the, it's not because of the movies boring. It's just because my body is just so, you know, I always, and the thing, too, with movies is I always get sick, like after I finish. I get, like a sinus thing or whatever. And it's weird how my body holds on.

Or somebody will come in with a cough, and then it'll take out the entire crew. So everybody's like, you know, everybody's got the cough. You know, we're all, like, quarantining together. But yeah, no, I mean, it's important to be able to do stuff, extracurricular stuff outside of a movie. I just think that's important. I mean, now, I've sort of like, you know, I don't drink really that much. And I don't drink during the week when I work.

I just try not to. Does it just, you know what you're going to feel like the next day? And you're like, there's no way I'll be able to do this handheld stuff tomorrow. If I'm drinking, so I just don't do that. I got to give you the line in on some supplements that have been helpful for me as a, someone who works adjacent to the bar industry. Oh, I'll take those. It won't, it won't solve like, you know, a heater of a night,

but going out with some drinks, like nothing. Yeah, it's, it's tough, man. As I'm getting older and it's, it's harder. The older I get, the harder it is to recover. And you're just like, oh my God, why did I do that? Yeah. No, it's tough. Yeah, I'm 36.

so it hit me at probably like 34, which is like later than a lot of people. Wait until you hit 40, man. Stuff starts blinking. You're like, hey, whoa, this isn't working right. Or you'll bend down to brush your teeth. You'd be like, it's like, dude, get what stuff happens, man.

Pulling my back in my sleep has been one of the worst experiences. You're like, this was supposed to be restful. I've pulled my back like sleeping and then having to go to work the next day and do handheld. been one day's so brutal man. I've like somebody, one of my ACs will have a therogun. I'll just like, you know, on my back. And I'm like, all right, let's go.

Or you get those like menthol patches and you're just sticking them all over your back just so you know, you smell like a, you know, eucalyptus tree. You call it. And you're just like, my God. There's a great company called Range. And they make, it was made by some servers as far as, I met on like this GoPro retreat years ago.

And I don't want it to work. It's just like a little roller ball that, again, smells like eucalyptus. It shouldn't work. I see hot doesn't work for me. And I'll put the range on and it's like gone. Muscle pain gone. And I'm like, okay.

I'm getting that. Yeah, I'll send you the multivitamins and then the range. But this is a good question. What do you bring? I was just talking to a different guy about this. Like, you're on set for a month, whatever, two months. A lot of handheld. This movie had a ton of handheld in it.

Yeah. God bless you for operating yourself. And you could find younger people to do that. I know. But what kind of things do you bring with you on set that are not film tools that help you get through those long shoots? I mean, you know, rain gears one always. Is there more things that like protect your body or just every just sort of might sort of like good. I mean.

Yeah, both because like I've started really invent like I just tell the other guy like I want to pitch vans on making set specific shoes. Oh, that's that's fantastic. I have these boots. Travel equipment. Yeah. Yeah, I have these boots from ultra. There I have wider feet like kind of like people make fun of them. I have like Hobbit feet.

So I have a wider foot base. And I wear these boots because they're for wide people, which, you know, she's of people with wide feet. I have to have those, man. I get those all the time. They're waterproof. They're incredibly comfortable. Insoles.

Like, those are all, they do they go a long way, man. The custom-made ones, too, and they're not expensive. No, not at all. New balance. Always some kind of formal new balance. Ultra is rang gear. I have my own shoulder thing. My ACs found this, like,

construction shoulder pad that has like plastic on it and then it's got foam inside and it snaps here that they I ever since I got that dude that thing is awesome it's like I don't have shoulder pain anymore massages getting massages like taking yourself to the spa is like I mean you write all that shit off man but like it's it's so important to stay in ship and I try to do a stretch a lot because I still operate I'm not going to operate on bert this year They don't want me to. They want me by the D.I.T. thing. So I was like,

you're doing another Burt movie? A Burt. Well, season two of Burt Kreischer. I'm about to go do. I did the free Burt series on Netflix with Burt Chrysler. Because didn't you make a movie with him? I didn't do a movie. I did the movie. I did the movie.

Who did the movie? I don't know who did it. Did you interview that person? Yeah. I don't remember who did the movie, but we could look it up. But I did the series. I did his Netflix series. so we're going to go do season two,

but the whole show was Hano. You know, the entire show. There was no, there was no dolly, no support. There was only support for like two shots and the whole thing. It was two zooms. That was it. I put it on tripod and that was it. Dude, I, uh, the, the big ones for me have been, um,

oh, it was Eigle Burled. That's, say, he's good. Yeah, he's real good. That's fun. He went from House of Cards to that. To the machine. Yep. The big ones from me I found are like obviously like multivitamins and shit like that.

You know, just your classic emergency, whatever, a lot of mint, especially documentary, like a lot of mints, gum, something like that. But I have like a little pack of stuff for after lunch, which is like caffeine pills, zen. If you're into that. Yeah. Yeah. The, yeah, a little toothbrush, mouthwash, like extra pair socks. Yeah, the little toothbrushes. I forgot about those, yeah.

Just that kind of stuff can really make you going from sleepy after lunch to feeling like a new person. Yeah, no. And I also do, excuse me, what's it called the, it's like the electrolytes powder. I forget the name of that stuff. Oh, yeah, liquid IV. That was a liquid IV. I do those of liquid IV. that's good.

And just water and, you know, every now and that I'll hit a nice coffee for a big sugar rush. I don't really do Red Bulls. It's not really my thing. Though I used to work at Red Bull. So I can't not. I'm in the morning and my director is like, what the fuck's wrong with you? And I'm like, it's just been my life. I don't know.

My key grip in L.A., his wife works for Red Bull. So he's always bringing, hey, this is a new flavor. I'm like, whoa. He's like testing it on us. we like it, you know. But yeah, those kind of things, I mean, those are the things I normally, you know, and I work, I work in these, I always wear like a hoodie, you know, it's got like SPF in it. And I always look like I'm coming from REI when I walk on set.

It's like I'm going to go hiking or something. But that's my, that's my uniform, man. The two support, you know, you talk about your little shoulder pad. One that I found, and this is, you know what, this is, I got to give credit to YouTube. This was a YouTube find. baby seat. So remember the hip shot? Yes.

So the hip shot, they stopped making it. It was like a mother, it was a mom and pop thing. Stop making it. It was very expensive too. Yeah. But if the camera package is small enough,

because the baby seat, you know, it's for like, you know, moms or parents will wear it, you know, around their body like a cumberbund and then the baby sits there.

Sure. 30 bucks. And I can let go. And it'll just sit there. That's all. got little pockets on it. So you could put like extra battery lens cap, whatever. That's true.

And so I've got the babies. Bro, there's a photo of me. I was filming this political rally, massive political rally here in L.A. And it was a little high tension based on what we were the subject matter of the rally was. It wasn't for American politics necessarily. And there's this photo of me that someone found filming the person talking from behind them. You know, black sunglasses, black T-shirt, whatever, baby seat. And they're like, what the hell are you?

you do. And the other thing I found is incredible. It works great, man. But the other thing is, you know, those like Contera vests that grips will wear. Yeah. So I found one of those kind of, it's like technically it's a running vest, but it's the same thing, a lot of pockets on the chest, but it's got a camelback built into it. Uh, so I was a great, I bring that. Oh, yeah, because it's, it's, it's staying hydrated, it's taking care of yourself, man. It's just, you know, I got really, I got really lucky on one spoon because we were there from, in Atlanta, from March, April, May, almost June. But when I'm going down there on Monday,

I mean, it's Satan's waiting room, man. It's humid and it's hot. And all of these things that we're talking about are essential. You know, it, you have to have all that stuff, man, because there was one day last year on set and on Freebert, that we were shooting outside. And for some reason, at an early call time, the humidity just spiked way up.

And so everybody was just falling like, father. They were like, what is going on? It's hotter than normal today. And the medic was like, you know, doing the towels with the ice and throwing them over people's necks. And they were just, I was gobbed and sweat. And I had all my hair.

And the next day, I went and buzzed all my hair off. I was like, I can't deal with this, man. I was sweating like crazy. It was getting my sweat gets in your eyes And you're just like, oh You burns is going to hit your eyes And you're trying to wear Especially we've got sunscreen on

Yeah, exactly. And I can't stand sunscreen But unfortunately you have to have it I just hate it because when it drips into your eyes Like I said, it's bad. But you know, yeah, I mean, It's so funny the stuff we use Like the baby thing you're talking about

That's amazing. I have to look that up now. Yeah, you know, I'm right, baby seat. What, what, um, what did you, uh, what did you think of like the, the violence in the movie? Like what, what was your sort of take on like how brutal we went at the end? Like, oh, do we go too far? Do we did, did it? Was it like?

I thought so, I mean, you start off the movie with a guy getting jumped by like seven dudes with bats. And then you cut out his liver. Like, if he had a measured response, obviously different guy. But if he had a measured response to these people, like, that would feel not good. Yeah. Like, go John Wick with it, man. And it's cool. Like, there's, he's like fighting.

You know, it's not just John Wicking everyone. No. You're like, I don't know. I'm also a big fan of like action movies and, you know. Yeah. I'm all except some gratuitous violence. It was interesting because, like, we had the guy who trained Chattuck Boseman from Black Panther. We had Maurice Crump, and he's amazing martial artist.

And, you know, he helped us choreographed these things. But he was also, Brissett said, I don't want this to look like an 87 and 11 fights slain. I don't want it to be perfect. He's like, you know what I want to feel brutality? I want brutality. And I want it to be rough. I don't want it to be perfect. And it's a camera shake somewhere.

I was like, okay, all right. And so when we were filming one of the scenes, and Shameek, who plays unique, was stepping on the guy. I, for some reason, I timed it because I used to take martial arts and I watched these things and all that stuff. I stripped the camera.

And then I did it like twice. And then he brisicam to me. He's like, no, no, no, man, do that again. that's awesome it looks cool so in the certain sequences i shook the camera and it happened like there somewhere else and then the end when he's beating up the guy um so that was fun man i mean that stuff was cool and we did some throwbacks man we did some brusely stuff you know when they're facing each other he's got the hammer that was old boy you know it was a whole bunch of like things like barbed wire or whatever like yeah like i like all the improvised stuff too that was like

yeah it's fun when you get to that level of of of I mean, it's the same. I think this was another thing that made me think, like, oh, Quentin must have been involved beforehand, which was just that style of, like, it was very, and also kind of the way you lit it to a degree and the way it was timed, but like that sort of killbill fight scene feel.

Yeah. You know, which I think people dig. Yeah, no, I mean, that was one of the things. It's just, you know, Brisbane and I both were martial artists. And we both love Bruce Lee and martial arts movies. I mean, I can't, Quentin can't stump him on. martial arts movies on other things they can but they get into like really like oh have you seen

this oh no I haven't seen that oh we've seen this I've heard this this is all here so I've heard all this stuff I've never actually been part of that yet I haven't met quitting yet I hope one day that I do get to meet him um but uh he uh I hear that they they just go off but they can pull those references you know like grizzan can pull samples he uses movies as samples it's like hey if you've seen this let's try to bring this into this let's try to bring this into this let's try to bring this and this. So I love that shit, man. That to me is fun, you know. Yeah. Were you talking about that in a different interview about how like

business kind of approaches filmmaking as putting together samples? 100% man. Yeah. And he always keeps music in mind too, which is really cool. Like he, the song that was played at the beginning of the movie when he's in jail and he's getting out in the title sequence, he played that while we were shooting that stuff. and it was funny one of one of my aces tried to shazam the song and he's like yeah you're gonna get that buddy that one's in here I made that one I was like I yeah what is that he's like oh

that's one of my that's one I think I'm gonna use for the movie and he ended up using it for the movie but he I always noticed him like because I operate in certain times when we did steady camera or whatever I'd be by the monitor and I watched his foot for some reason I was he's like mm-hmm he'll do he'll tap and I go Bobby what are you doing he's like I'm just I'm I'm mellowing. I'm hearing the song of my head. I'm hearing the song of my head. I'm like, okay, all right.

So you just, the guy never ceases to amaze me, man, with stuff like that. How important music is, his life is obviously it's everything. That's where he started. But how important movies are to him or even more, man. He loves movies. And he's going to be shifting his career. You know, once he's done with this Wu-Tang tour, which will be this year, He's going to not do music for a while.

He will, but it's more like to sit back and watch, you know, Tyler Bates did the score with him on this. I was going to say, that's crazy. What a wonderful poll. Dude, what a wonderful poll. And I've become friends with Tyler, and he's, dude, what a nice guy, man. And we composed it at his house. And he lives up in the hills. And he, to watch, sit back and watch him and Rizzo just work together was the coolest thing in the world.

You got this guy, this killer guy. hip hop and this amazing you know guys done some of the greatest scores in film history right and they're working to get yeah man and they're working at anything he's like oh you see this violin thing uh this is where the 300 uh noise

came from and he played like a quick note and you're like whoa you know it's like that was cool man but to see those guys work was so cool and to know that Tyler's working on the movie that was that was awesome man and how how big sound is in the movie like

The movie sounded really big. If you saw it in the theater or watching a home theater, it's loud, man. It's really loud. And that was all Rizzily. He wanted to gut punch people. And he wanted the sound to do it too. So, yeah, that's gross to him.

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I've said millions of times is like, editing makes you a better DP, but being a musician makes you a better filmmaker. Because I think one of the things that kills young film. makers early is they're pacing its ass. Right? And if you know how to pace a song like no one wants a

20 minute solo. You know, as much as fun as they are. You know, like, you know, like Queens of the Stone Age I think has nailed the exact length the solo should be, which is like, it ends. A solo does end. Like that's, I'm a drummer. The thing I hate is when a drummer just does a solo doesn't really have any music.

It's just showing off chops. Sure, sure. And then they stopped at some point. and then the music just continues. It's like, why did we stop the song for you to do that? Like, that should be for a drum convention. Like, put that on drumio. Like, I don't need you to do that in the middle of this concert, my friend.

I didn't know you were, you were drunk. It's cool, man. If I were a musician, I would have wanted to play the drums. The drums are the coolest instruments. I'm always posting, like, drum videos just because I'm like, oh, that's cool. I wish I could do that. Yeah, it's, my dad was in drum corps as a kid. So that was just kind of like a no-brainer.

But also the thing I love about drums too is like you meet other, like there's no genre in drumming. All drummers, like the most hardcore metal drummers are like, yeah, I love Stuart Copeland. You know, the police. And I think with all the other instruments, people tend to sit in their own genre. Not always, obviously.

but with drummers it's like you'll see the most haggard-looking dudes sitting next to the most like gospel musicians are constantly getting ups from like drummers like metal drummers and stuff because they're like I can't do that like if you've ever been to like a black gospel drumming is some of the most insane chops you could do like find anywhere I can only imagine I can only imagine it's a direct one to one with metal but it's a completely different it's a completely different style right yeah yeah and I noticed that too yeah it's a And, you know, how you hold the sticks. And I've seen all these, like, you know, jazz drummers, like rock and roll drummers or metal drummers. Like, holy shit, this guy's like the mecca of all drummers. And the guys like, ah, you know, whatever. I can't do what you do. But they can, you know. That's really cool.

That's really cool. It's the same with Risman. He's like, you know, he doesn't just like hip-hop. He likes all kinds of music, dude. Like, insane. Like, just his knowledge of music is insane. It was funny, like a couple weeks ago I was, when I was still out in L.A.

I went out to his house. We had dinner. And he has like this part of his house where it's set up like a record store almost. He has all these wooden things of all these LPs. And I was just looking and he was like, oh, here, you want to hear something? And he plays it and he's like,

he showed me this album. I don't remember what the name of it was. I took a picture of it. But it was like, nobody sampled this. And I want to sample this for something one day. And he played it for me. And I was like, wow, this, I can see, you know. And then he played like this, the brakes.

He had these things called the brakes, right? And all it is is like seven volumes of records. And you'd hear like the funky drummer loop or this or that. And everybody's sample. Does they use that for DJing back in the day, right? Exactly. Exactly. He's like, everybody was trying to get all ten of these or whatever.

And he's like, oh, I got them. And it's like, it's like, it's so. And you get in the whole music last. and just listening, oh, hear this, oh, that's, I sampled that from this. I'm like, oh, oh, okay. But that's what I love. You never know what he never ceases to amaze me, man, ever. And that's why I won't work.

That was one of my favorite things to do when making like playlists for parties or events or whatever, is to find, like, even today's most popular pop artists or anyone, and usually there's like some sample in there a lot of times in the intro. And so I'll find what that was and then grab the real song and play it. Like especially a lot of older hip hop, especially, you know, your outcast or obviously a lot of the stoop dog stuff. Like where that first line rolls in and you're like, I know the song and everyone gets ready to sing the stoop dog lick and you're like, nope, that's Coke bottle baby. Exactly. No, and he was playing stuff.

That funk is that. But yeah. he's like oh you remember this from a g thing or you remember this from like snoop dog song i'm like oh oh yeah you know i'm like so yeah man this shit all comes from a place you know and it's cool uh and and he he's very much like that with movies you know he tries to like he'll show me some i like this now what we can we take out of this and make it ours so that's that's that's what he always says sampling for him is like filmmaking and sampling for him, which I love, you know.

Yeah. Well, that's what we're doing as DPs, too, right? Like you, like you're saying, you steal, if you steal from one person, you're a hack, but if you steal from five people, you were inspired. Yeah, yes. Yes, I was inspired. Did you, I threw an homage or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Did you, uh, I saw somewhere that, like, the main character in the film is, is basically

ODB with superpowers? That's exactly right. So what does that? I was never the biggest Wu-Tang person, so I only know the main seven and not all 895 of them. But how did that manifest? Like what about the character was ODV? Well, his name was ran.

I can't remember. I know his name is A-San unique, Jones, right? and so he took the name unique. And I saw that. And when I read the script, I didn't think, I was like, oh, that's cool. That's like old DB's nickname, right? It wasn't until I saw a costume and makeup and hair test that I was, I was like, oh,

wait a minute, his hair, what he's wearing. I was like, wait a minute, this is old dirty bastard as a superhero, man. And I go up to Rizzle. I said, hey, man, is there something I'm not aware of here because he looks awfully a lot like old dirty bastard he looked at me as like b cox keep it on the d l i was like got it done and i knew from there it's his it's his like this his cousin and he's no longer with us but it was it would that was his way of making old dirty bastard of superhero

that was yeah and he said he would have loved this movie you know he would love this movie and and rightfully so but yeah that's i wasn't aware until that that very moment that was two days before we shot. And nobody... Some people caught on, but he did... And the funny thing is, his young dirty bastard, who's his son,

is actually in the movie. There's a tiny little part. He's in two places. When Unique and his cousin are out on the lawn, and the dude rolls up in the car that's smoking the weed... Oh, you had a... Passenger.

And then when the... When the dudes... with a dudes from the Legion are looking for the same guy. He asked some hood dude that stands up as a go, man, you've seen this dude, Randy,

you, Randy Johnson. And he's like, nah, man, I haven't seen him. That guy, that's young, dirty bastard. He has the same haircut and everything.

That's pretty cool. So he knew. And, yeah. Was that eight ball jacket or the eight jacket, an ODB thing? Because I also remember

there was a famous somewhat like video. on the subway, New York, of a guy wearing that same jacket and like stopping some nonsense. The eight ball jacket, the Timberlands, the camo pants, the hair especially, the way he had

his hair up like that, that was like a very old dirty bastard thing. Though he then did like cornrows and stuff and then he would just throw him out in his hair and be all like crazy looking, but that was a very old dirty bastard thing. It was pretty cool. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you watching anything cool that you like? Right now? I'll mean besides the NBA playoffs. But I'm going to watch, I'm going to start Spider-Man Noir because I'm only going to watch it because of Nick Cage. It's good. I really love Nick Cage, so I really want to see it for that. And it looks cool, you know.

I think it's cool that they're offering black and white and color, so that's fun. I will say So they sent me the season To interview the guys And so I saw it a couple weeks ago Don't watch the color version Like they shot it They shot it for black and white

Like it's got that monsters Everything's like pink and blue And whatever because for the black and white Yeah And I tried watching the color I was like this is jarring Like I don't It just doesn't look great right

It looks interesting But it's not good Like go to the black and white That's what it was for You know That's what it was for Yeah And it's like, and I think that was the reason why Nick Cage wanted to do it because it's like, yeah, it's a film noir, let's go. You know, why not? And he's, I've been seeing just some great interviews. It's so good. I miss working with him. He's one of the favorite actors I got to work with. So I'm all down for that. So, yeah. That and I and I watched, you know, I watched like Landman. And I watched, you know, I've been trying to get into some anime stuff.

And I watched Splinter Cell, which I was a big fan of the video game. I didn't know how they had an animated series. I just happened to come across it. I watched it. I really liked it, actually. I should check that out. My girlfriend's getting. Yeah, my girlfriend's been watching a ton more anime,

but she got Crunchy Roll and it's like there's a hundred million of these shows. And she just burn and through them, you know, because they're usually pretty quick. And then I'll be over here like, do you want to watch Ghost in the show? And she's like, no. I want to watch this ice skating boy love thing, you know? All right, yeah. Yeah, is that the, that's the streaming anime service? Is that what it is?

Yeah, I think Rizzo just went to the Crunchy Roll Awards in Japan. He was just literally, I was like, the what? And then he said, oh, yeah, there's a streaming service called Crunchyroll. And I'm like, Crunch, well, what is that? And he's like, oh, it's anime. I'm like, oh, okay. So he was only doing a concert and I guess he hit the award. So I did a little two for one.

I will say, like, out of all the streaming services, that's probably the best bang for your buck. Probably, yeah. Thousands and thousands of shows. And I think anime, kind of like horror movies, anime is one of those things where it's like, if you love the genre, you'll pretty much, I feel like most people love all of it. Yeah. There's not like bad ones. They're just ones people don't. quite like as much.

Yeah. I like all the old stuff. I mean, I'm a fan of like Akira and Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll and, you know. That's a big trigon guy. Trygun, yeah. That's what's, that's what's,

there was a cartoon that was on when I was a kid called Guardians of the planets. They all were dressed like birds. I think it's called something else in Japanese, but it was usually violent. It was super cool, though, because I got to see the American version. Then I saw the Japanese version. I was like, well, this is way cooler.

So, yeah, I'm feeling like we just got done with the idea that we need to remake shit for American audiences that we could just port it over. You know, like movies especially, they, you know, I think, I don't know, maybe the Departed was probably the last, like, plus, like remake. Yeah. That still blew my mind that that movie was only like four years old before they're like, do it again, but for us. It's, it's crazy how like all of that sort of, oh, yeah, this is this Spanish movie or this was this Japanese movie or this French movie and let's remake it for the American audiences. I mean, nobody wants anything original anymore. It's pretty sad. I do think that like the two things that I've seen most from I was just having this conversation

I did an interview earlier but like if we are to believe that the youth or the future the the they hate AI just on principle you know yeah and um they they don't really love like they will accept a sort of big summer blockbuster you know your top guns but anything else they're like it like the fact that A24 has built a brand around it's not Hollywood basically. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone responded to that. Like that gives me, you know, a little bit of hope, I suppose.

Yeah. Is that that backerhams movie? I mean, that kid, he's like 20 years old or something. And I've been seeing a lot of backlash on him, like saying, oh, he didn't direct the movie or he did direct or he had help. I mean, who cares, man? If the kid takes a village. It takes a village, obviously. It's not one person.

But look, if the kid wrote the thing, it was a. his idea, the studio backed him. I'm curious. I don't see what the hell it is. I don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about it. That started. That started.

That whole backroom's idea was a... It was on YouTube, right? No, even better. It was a picture. Like, imagine the poster for the movie. It's basically that. A picture on 4chan where someone just went in and was like, I fell through the floor of my office and like,

now I'm here and I'm not. quite sure because fortunately it was just people you know collective hallucination you know cosplay kind of thing and before it went really crazy but yeah it was one one JPEG and like a little story and it just took off

you know there's video games about it now I did like this whole idea like the SEP foundation shit and you know you get stuff like that and I think that's cool yeah yeah I mean and I know a lot of the youth is like you know they love film and they like a lot of these kids are getting together

to watch VHS tapes. Like VHS tapes are like back in style again, which is like hilarious. And, you know, I mean, it's cool. They want to relive the 80s. It's kind of like when, you know, I guess when we were growing up, our parents want to relive the 60s and the 50s. Yeah. You know, so it's like the 80s have become the 50s of now.

I will say it's kind of funny because there's this bar that I go to near my house. And on the weekends especially, it gets pretty youthful. And the one thing I've seen is they're all dressed like I dressed in high school. You know, Jinkgo jeans, no fear t-shirts. But I think you're right. It is like the, I would say it's further than in the 80s. Well, I think their concept of the Y2K era extends back including what we were into then in like 2000, which was the 80s. Because their concept, this is just a theory I have.

their concept of culture only exists so far as the internet documented it. So the reason that they're wearing jinko and not Abercrombie is because there's more photos of people wearing jinko because we made fun of them. I was wearing jinko, so I'm allowed to say that. I can do that. I didn't wear jinko, but that's cool. Not really. But I got no beef.

But just that idea of like what they've seen. has some permanence and today there is no permanence. So they're just trying to live in that place. Same thing with like you'll see if you go to concerts, you know, they'll have records for sale.

That's been true since forever. But now they're selling cassette tapes. That blows my mind. Wow. And it's like, how are you guys finding cassette players? Like where? That work.

That work. And I'm sure there's some company that's like, oh, we can, if $500. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Teenage engineering probably has a cool one. Yeah, that's cool. It's like it's vintage and it's cool. And they so they want to go for it. So, hey, man, that's, you know, what's the other one? What's the other movie that just came out? Obsession? I haven't seen that yet.

You know, and I heard that guy's like, you know, it's his first movie and same thing. TikTok comedian. It's incredible. Not like a stand-up, but they were doing like skits on TikTok, a really funny. Shit I constantly was sharing with people because it would always, come across my feed. And then I saw the main actor and I was like, what? And, you know, I think it's great. Like, you know, we've been talking about the democratization of film and how digital tools make it easier for anyone. Now it's like the interest and the budgets have kind of caught up with that instead of like, go make your thing with your phone. Now it's like, oh, if you pitch a good idea,

that thing is starting to open back up. Yeah. That's, that's what needs to happen. You know, I just, I don't think the studio probably likes it that these young kids. kids are doing it. But I mean, when you put out a better product, you know? Yeah. And people will come back and you got to put out a good product. I saw you, we're doing a lot of, like, campaigning more or less for the stay in L.A. campaign. Yeah.

Which I followed pretty extensively or still. Yeah. I was trying to. What, do you feel like things have started to make a change? like with your slightly more boots on the groundness of it than me just looking on Instagram. Where do we stand? I mean, I don't live in L.A. anymore. So it's like I left last year, but I just came back there. In January, I shot something.

And then I just finished from shooting something in L.A. They're small movies. There's small little things. but from, you know, I don't gauge things by producers. I don't gauge things from, I gauge things from crew people, you know,

because crew people know everything. They're the ones that are working, you know. And there are a lot of commercials. There are some big shows. Is it as much as what they'd like it to be? No, it's down, but it is slowly going. I think there's a lot of low-budget stuff. And obviously you have your 10-pulse shows that are there.

Like a friend of mine was shooting presumed, then it's a big, you know, HBO show. And then she was going on to Boston to shoot the exteriors, but all the interiors were in Los Angeles. So, I mean, that's good for shooting studio stuff. Is it the capacity it was 10 years ago? No. And I think the election's going to have a lot to fix that.

I think, you know, like, for example, that Baywatch show almost left him went to Australia, because they weren't letting him shoot on the beach. They were giving them problems in permits. It was just film L.A. crap, you know? The same old nonsensical stuff. And the producer just was like, I've had it. I'm going to take this.

And I guess all the crew people complained online. And the mayor's office saw it. And so then, but it shouldn't take that. You know what I mean? It shouldn't take, this is Los Angeles, it's Hollywood. And it shouldn't take that kind of like sort of not blackmail, but just like just anger of people. People just saying, this is ridiculous.

Why can't let me work here? I hope it comes back, man. I really do. But I think a lot of things need to change. Like, I don't think they need a lottery. I think they need an incentive. I think they need like a 40% or 50% incentive to really be competitive with Thailand, with England, Ireland, all those places are given.

They have to be able to give money back on the high end of like on the actors. If the actors are there and you give money back above the line, all that stuff. So I tried to get into the state of LA, but I was saying these type of things. And they were like, oh, you're crazy. Then I was like, well, I work all across the world. You clearly don't and you don't get it. These people can do exactly what the people in L.A. can do just as good.

And that's what people don't understand is that the business caught up everywhere else with Los Angeles. And so L.A., and I'm not saying this to disrespect my L.A. friends, but Hollywood friends, but everywhere else is just as good as they are. Yeah, I did a movie in Thailand. This first rate crew, man. You know, my gaffer was Bill Pope's gaffer on Send Help. Oh, wow.

And he was top-notch, man. I mean, they were just everything by the book, fast, good, efficient. It was like a Hollywood film. And so they have to be, in order to be competitive, you have to be competitive with their tax rates. That's just, and I tried to say to that, to my friends that were in the stay in LA thing and they kind of didn't want to hear it. So I was just like, well, peace out.

That fun. Yeah. You know? I feel like you see that in a lot of analogous industries, you know, R.E., for instance. I love the people I know at R.E., but, like, not knowing the inside workings, like, it does feel like they got a little complacent on the camera side. Like, everyone's always going to come to us. And even with red on their heels, like, that didn't need to me.

move the needle, but now you've got, you know, little, you know, Sony cameras, black magic. Yeah. You know, like, it's all just as good. Like, with Ari, obviously, you get the support network across the planet. That's a huge thing. But, you know, with them coming out with like feature locked bodies, they're like, if you pay us more, we'll just unlock it, the software thing. It's like, come on. That's ridiculous.

That's like the heat and seats on the BMW or like Adobe. It's like Adobe. You know, and the thing is I noticed, what, I did this thing I did in January. It was with Rizza, actually. We did something. And I wanted to shoot to Venice, too. And then one of his guys was like, oh, yeah, we made some relationships over there.

You should go talk to them. So we went over and they got me the mini, the Venice mini. The Venice 2 mini with the minis like this little modular thing in the, you know, it's like. Oh, the Rialto thing. The Rialto thing, yeah. Okay. I was like, I haven't heard of this. The Rialto.

Yeah, so funny enough, though, Sony was one of the companies that really didn't listen to filmmakers because they're like for Sony, you know, what do you want? But now, from talking to them, they've been so open and listening to ideas because they want to, they want to do that. And now also that Red is, you know, been bought by Nikon is like they're being that way as well. They want the feedback. They want to know what it is because they want to make it better for them. and I think Airy closing themselves off, that's a bad mistake, you know. I think it's a really bad mistake because there's a lot of things in, you know, like I use the ARI Extreme, the Alexa 35 is extreme.

I was kind of like, eh, all right, that doesn't really that great, you know, okay, you can't do this frame rate in anamorphic, but you can only do this frame rate. But what's the point of his camera, you know? It was a little kind of like, I wasn't impressed guys. That was a really cool try. Let's try it again, you know. So, but you can't tell them that, you know, because there's a chairman. It's very, you know, it's the best.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm kidding. But it's interesting. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think, I don't think it's smart to be closed off like that, you know, like you said. Or even to just kind of rest on your laurels and think that, you know, you're the big dogs. Like going back to the idea of L.A., you know, like, we are production. It's like, I was interviewing the guy who shot. murder button. He said he was shooting in Spain right now because they had some sick locations or

whatever. And he was like, incentives are great. Incentives are great, but he said the same thing you did. He was like the cruise here are insane. And they're in like, no, I think he said they're in like a larger city. But, you know, you go to Atlanta and you're like, okay, they've certainly been built up. You know, Marvel basically built an entire career over there. But like, what is it? Like, Czechoslovakia or whatever. Like you, if you end up going to. Oh, Gary. Like, suddenly, like, filmmaking is not, filmmaking on the whole is difficult,

but individual jobs, like gaffing, or excuse me, like Grip. Yeah, it's the same. Building stuff. People know how to build stuff. It's universal. Yeah, exorably. Of course, it's universal.

I mean, it's like, filmmaking is universal, right? But it's exactly what you said. It's, you know, it, it, it, why, why is that guy going over there? You know, why is he going to Spain? Why is he going to Bulgaria? because it's cheaper.

And they're being competitive. And, you know, Atlanta's failing it right now. There's not a less, I'm actually going back to Atlanta to do season two of that free bird show I did for Netflix last year. And we got renewed, you know, thank God. And but there's not a lot of production going on Atlanta the way it used to be. Atlanta used to be, dude, there was like 70 some projects going on there. And you're trying to get crew together. You know, and your crew's like, well, at the end of the show, the last week, I got to go because I got to start this show.

That happened all the time. Now they're like begging you to stay. You know, they'll call it. Yeah, can we get more days? But it's just tough. It's tough because there's just not a lot of, you know, shows going on, you know? Yeah. But I think that's the answer, right?

Like Marvel certainly, you know, they were kind of a magnet. You know, they dragged their way over to Atlanta and that made a lot of stuff. and also just the local community that was into filming. L.A. can do that in a heartbeat if, as you're saying, they're just like, like Jay Holden, I know, won't mind if I speak for him. But he's been a big, what's the opposite of proponent? He does not like the way film L.A. is operating like I think a lot of people are. No, no, I think he's, I'm right there with him because they are a huge problem.

They make things difficult. And it shouldn't be that way. And I know they were like, oh, we made a new, we made a new permit thing. It's funny. There's a guy in Instagram who's an actual location guy. He's hilarious. I can't remember his handle, but he's so funny. And he'll talk about how the new thing is structured of like a low budget permit.

And it's ridiculous. You can't have a generator. You can't put any stands down. You can't shoot after a certain time. You can only have like 20 or 30 people there. I say, what's a point of this? Can't park on the street. They park of the street.

It's like, what is it the problem here? Like, why did you even do it in the first place? And also, why do I have to get a permit to use my friend's backyard? Right? Exactly. Like, you're going to come send the cops after us for doing that? Like, give me a break. Yeah, it's his yard.

I mean, it's his backyard, you know? It just doesn't make any sense, man. I, that's why like the, you know, the politics or whatever happening coming up will be really interesting how all this stuff gets, you know, sifted out to see who pushes the film industry forward or if it's just a bunch of talk that just, they're just trying to get people to vote for them. And then when it comes time to doing the actual stuff, they just, I don't know what you're talking about, you know.

I'm ready to not get mailers anymore. I probably get 40 big cardboard mailers a day, five tax messages a day. I'm like, I'm a fucking millennial, so I'm putting it off till the two days before it's do. But I do have the don't give me six pages of governors I can vote for. That's another thing we need to figure out. Give me two. Give me two.

I don't need... Bide amongst yourselves. Tell me who I should like who my options are. This is crazy. I know it's insane. It's like they just go at each other. It's so crazy, too. You know, I will say this is one thing before

anyone jumps down my throat about it. Like, I this used to get me in trouble as a kid. I would constantly complain about stuff. And I'd get in trouble for people, you know, job places I was in were like, dude, like you're so negative. And I was like, no, I had a hard time explaining what it was and I figured it out. I only complain about stuff that I love because I want it to be better. Like I love Los Angeles.

This is my adoptive home, you know. I live there for 24 years, man. And it's like I get it. Yeah, I don't want to leave. It's the same thing anytime anyone says, oh, go back home or move somewhere else or like, I don't want to. I want here to be better.

Like, if everyone just moved when shit got hard, nothing would be good. No. Like, you need people complaining to a degree. Yeah. Not just complaining about fucking dumb shit, but I agree, man. I'm like,

you know, it was, I didn't want to move, but it just, I was never working there. And I'm like, what am I doing? What am I doing?

I'm like, I'm not going to get a show here. I'm not going to film a movie here. What am I doing? I mean, I was working in Thailand. I was working overseas in Europe. I work in Asia somewhere. You know, I'd work in Atlanta or Canada, but anywhere but Los Angeles. And so when I was about to come back, the fires happened.

And I was like, well, it's a sign, dude. Maybe you should just stay home for a while. So I'm back east. And I know I want to come back. back. I do. I really do. Um, I want to see L.A. come back. I mean, it's a great city, man. You know, I will, I'm from the East Coast, though, right? I am, yeah. Yeah. So that's not such a, it's not like you bailed out. You just, you know, get back home for a bit. That's different. Yeah, I just, I just did that because like, you know, are you from the East Coast? You're from,

where you're from? I'm from the Bay Area. The Bay Area. That's right. Um, but it's, uh, yeah, you know, I don't know, man. It's, it's one of those things where you just kind of, I want to see it succeed, but I don't know. We'll see what happens. Nothing's broken forever, you know. No, I don't come back. Even Detroit came back. That's right.

That's sort of the, that's what everybody always says. It's like, well, even Detroit came back, you know. So hopefully LA will. Well, I budgeted an extra half hour because I knew we were going to bullshit for a bit. But I also know it's late. So I'll let you go. I appreciate that movie. I hope they'll play it more at,

I hope they'll play it more at the Vista because I'd love to go see that. Me too. Me too, man. If I find out that it is playing there, I'll 100% let you know. And they made one more thing. If you didn't see it, the poster that was made, I spoke about it on another thing, but the guy who made the poster, Tony, Stella,

I don't know if you know that guy's work. I don't think so. He does a lot of Blu-ray covers, and he's been doing a lot. Like, yeah, his Italian guy, and he panp paints everything. He passed away a few weeks ago, and it was a shock to me. I don't know what happened to him, but the movie poster, if you see it, he did the movie poster, and it was like one of the last one. He was awesome, and I just, like, I just employ your viewers to just go check out his stuff

and, you know, give it a look because it's really cool stuff. Yeah. We need to make some prints of that, or get some prints or however that happens. Yeah, I'll get you one, man. I'll get you a post. Oh, fuck, yeah. I'm going to get a whole bunch of them. So I'll get you one. If you want one, I'll get, I'll get Riz to sign it.

Something. Oh, that'd be sick. Yeah, I was just going to say you can sign it. But I'll sign it. I'll sign it, too. I'll sign it too. I'm sorry. But thank you, buddy.

I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. Of course, man. Yeah, and I'll send you these Amazon links. Beautiful. Please. I'll take them. I'll take it.

Have a good night, man. All right, man. Bye, bye. Bye-bye. reference is an Albot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McBillen. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.