Frame & Reference Podcast - 254: "The Devils Mouth" Cinematographer James Kniest

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

On the program this week we've got my brother from another mother James Kniest, here to talk about his work on "The Devils Mouth" now available on Amazon Prime!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

And welcome to this, episode 254 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, James Knees, DP of the devil's mouth. Enjoy. You wanted to be an underwater photographer? Yeah, I first got into this business because I wanted to do underwater documentaries. Like, I was a total jacousto junkie. And, you know, I came up watching animal shows and animal documentaries and a lot of ocean. and underwater stuff.

And so when it was time, I went away to college to play sports. And then when that ended, I came back and I was just sort of bartending and surfing. And so I was encouraged by my family to find a path. And they were, you know, pushing business school and that kind of stuff. And I had really no interest. In hindsight, everything's business. But yeah. So in high, you know, so I, there's a school called Brooks Institute.

Santa Barbara, it's no longer there. But Ernie Brooks was kind of a well-known underwater photographer and cinematographer. And my dad had a golf buddy that was a prop master. And he put me in touch with this gentleman named Dick Barlow, who was at Tiffin. And Tiffin said, I got a guy for you. And he introduced me to Pete Romano. And Pete said, if you want to do that, you should go to meet Ernie Brooks at Brooks Institute. And I did. And I loved it. I had the best time. And we spent a lot of time at sea. He had a boat with a film processor on it. We went up and down the California coast. But in doing that, I took other photography and cinematography courses, you know, lighting and commercial photography, food, portraiture, and I really started to fall in

love with lighting and idea of painting with light and using light for, you know, storytelling and for sculpting and shadows and highlights. And I really, really liked it. So I kind of gravitated towards that. And then after being at sea a few times for a while, I was like, this is a lot of work, you know, I mean, weeks. I don't get seasick luckily, but, you know, it's hard work. I remember I first started, there was a underwater cinematographer,

Louis Preslin, and I did a job with him, and I was the underwater light guy. This is film days. And so I have to wrangle the cable that's attached to the boat with the HMI, underwater HMI, and then follow his camera and match him, but I'm kicking and swimming and pulling, and he's just like,

and, and he's just like, And, you know, I'm like running out of air. He's like, you know, I had to go up. And he's like, now. It was just a lot of work. I mean, I loved it. I enjoyed it. But, you know, thinking about doing that as a career.

And then I was, this was in Santa Barbara. I started getting on every job I could that came to town. And it was before unions were so strong. So I could get on as a grip. I could get on as electric camera assistant, PA. I mean, I did wardrobe. I did craft service. I did locations.

And it really gave me a well-rounded introduction to production in general. And I really gravitated towards that and sort of decided to push that way. Yeah, one of the biggest regrets I have is when I was interning at ABC, I'll make this so fast, but it's a pretty long story. But they put me in this, they made me go set up, tear down the lost offices and set up criminal minds suspect behavior. and so I'm like setting up the offices and then the art department shows up to start preparing and then they just like adopted me so now I'm like doing research I helped to like design the logo like all the sprint and they were like all right well when you when you're done with your internship call us back and I was like no I want to be a camera guy but I fucked off and I was like oh god damn it that would have been a good opportunity for 19 year old me well I'll tell you that's a funny thing about how the unions have unionized all of these productions in different levels for, you know, is that there's no real room to move around and try different crafts. You know, you scrape in as hard you can to get in the art department or the camera department. And now, you know, tier zeros and all these things.

You can't really move around and find what fits best in your personality, how you drive with a team. You know, and I don't know necessarily if it's healthy for the long term of the industry. And I think it's, you know, certain shows or movies that are under a budget level should be non-union and open. there's a, you know, you can move around in different crafts under a certain budget so that you can try, you know, different departments. Because I think each department has a certain temperament to it, a certain pace, a certain physicality to it for sure. You know, and you don't really know things until you try them, right? And you don't know what's even out there until you start to get on set. And a lot of kids think they do.

And schools don't really teach, you know, how deep the departments are and what they need and what the real jobs are from the day-to-day standpoint. So I don't know. That's my gripe against unionizing everything. You know, as much as I like my hours and my pension, if it's still there in 20 years, I do think that it's important for people to try different crafts within the industry. Yeah, that's always been what I've told people like film school is a good idea. It's because you do, it's not that you're going to necessarily learn anything you couldn't learn from like reading three of Jay Holbin's books. But you do get the reps in.

Sure. Like it's failure time and also making friends time. Right. And also being a child. And I'll think for me, to be honest, like the most important factor it was for me is that I had this time and could we're due like tomorrow. And the school was really, you know, pretty hard like that. You know, we were processing our own film and printing our own film.

And it was a pretty stringent, like demanding program. If I were learning on my own, yes, could have done it. Would I push myself that hard? Absolutely not. You know, so I think that that in itself is a motivator. Do I want to spend, you know, 300 grand to do that? I don't know. But, you know, I think that a dual major is a good thing.

And if I could go back, I would probably study business and a minor in photography or cinematography. Because ultimately you have to manage money. And I learned that as a vendor. I have a lighting company for many, many years. And just simple things like, you know, leasing and interest and insurance and things like things like that. And it's expensive to, it's probably more expensive to learn the hard way than it is to,

to, you know, learn in the classroom. Having learned the hard way with the money side of being a freelancer, agreed. You're like, my taxes are how much? Well,

it's a funny thing too, because, because, you know, you don't think about it until it's a problem. And then one thing about our business, like, oh,

I want to be, you know, flexible. so I could go do whatever I want to do. But a lot of us end up not doing anything because we're just waiting for the phone to ring or we don't want to miss a job. And so it never really pans out that way. Like, you know, like, oh, I'm bouncing around Europe and surfing the south of France.

No, I'm making phone calls trying to get a gig, you know. It's a funny misconception about how what that freelance life is like. Yeah, it's very bipolar. Like I literally was just in Paris a few months ago for a documentary. and then we went to Spain and then we went to D.C. And it was like the best three weeks I've had and it felt like a vacation,

but we were working. But also I'm with like three of my friends. Yeah. One of them I've known since college. And then that production company does a good job of baking in off days. Oh, awesome. Smart.

That's good for morale. Right? And so like we go to the Louve. We go to whatever, you know. On somebody else's time. That's amazing. Yeah. And so what's that? Hiring?

Probably. But then, you know, you get back and you're just like, all right, so that was great. I'm showing photos of that with everyone, blah, blah, blah. And then I get back and I'm like, yeah, now I have nothing. Literally nothing. I struggle with that so much because, you know, I kind of get on a high from work, you know, especially a show or, you know, a longer movie where, you know, there's adrenaline buildup and you're going, going, going, go and going,

and then all of a sudden you're not doing anything. And it's just like this emotional, you know, the first few days are great. You sleep and do laundry. And, uh, but then after a while, it's like, okay, now what? You know, it's very, um, feast or famine in that regard and not just necessarily financially, but just how your brains engage and, you know, just physically you get in a rhythm. And, and then all of a sudden, now what, you know, and, uh, it's, it's an interesting lifestyle.

I don't think about it that much anymore, but talking about it really starts to bring up all this stuff. You know, I wouldn't trade up for the world. believe me. No, same. I was just talking to someone else about this that like the when you get back off a gig that was good at least, you have like this run through a wall energy where you can get a lot done. And if you don't harness it, it's like your brain chemistry punishes you. Like clean the house, do something. You know, reorganize your gear closet. I don't know. Something. I do that what I'm not working. Like my family's like, why did you move the bowls to the plate cabinet and the plate for the glasses. I'm going to, I heard something, you know, and it's like, you know, I also tease, I don't have grips at home to help me, you know, like everything is me, you know, whatever needs to get done, I got to do. And, you know, and sometimes I might, you know, I'm like, I'm going to go back to work where people listen to me. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that's actually been kind of, I used to hate that, because still working with the same documentary production team, because it's my friend and because I'm, you know, one of the directors is in the PGA and the DGA. And so, like, they know more than me. I know that guy doesn't know cameras at all. Like literally you hand him on and he can't even hit record. He knows nothing, right? And then I'll have opinions and he goes, no. And it was a good, humbling lesson when I realized his taste was good. He didn't know how to get there.

That was my job. Stop being frustrated. That is your job. Instead of being like, listen to me, I have good ideas. It was like, no, I, you know, it was frustrating because someone who didn't know was telling me what to do. And I was like, that's the job. Exactly. And, you know, it's a service business ultimately, you know, and thank God that somebody needs you to execute their idea or their vision.

And then hopefully you're sprinkling in, you know, elevating it or you're slowly introducing a little different, you know, perspective. And I have to be careful because I've learned over the years that I'll be listening and I make faces when I'm listening, you know. And then like, I go, what? You don't like that? And I go, no, I'm just thinking. I'm thinking logistically, like spatially. And I realize, oh, okay, uh-huh, mm-hmm. You know, and then presenting ideas is the whole skill set in itself that's learned, you know.

But I think that is ultimately the cinematographer's job is to elevate and to plan and to execute. You know, I say a lot largely my job's management. You know, it used to be, I tell funny story all the time and it's like a broken record, but I was fortunate enough to gaff. I was a gaffer for many many years. for some really, really talented DPs. And one in particular, he would just like, the light's not right. And he just walk off and smoke a cigarette and we'd all just be like, okay.

You know, and like, I can't imagine it now. There's no way. I mean, I couldn't do it. You know, there'd be somebody right behind me. All right, next. Yeah. My job's management, really, you know, is to help get what the director wants, elevate it where you can and make sure it's on time and on budget.

and everything's run smoothly. Yeah, I'm glad you actually brought that up a little bit because, A, one, half of the reason I have a beard is to hide the micro facial things that happen when people talk to me. But how did you get to know Sal Toto Tino? Because I had him on the podcast for Unstoppable that ASU film. And I was like, hey, cool. But I had read that you worked with him in some capacity. Yeah, I did some gaffing for him, mostly. commercials and then he was super generous. He's a great guy. He's a phenomenal D.P. And he's,

he's tough. You know, I like Sal. Like his old school, East Coast, New York attitude. It's no bullshit. You know, I think people would worry about him and stuff. And it's one of those situations. As long as you're doing your job and you're plugged in, you're paying attention and you're respectful, like there's no problems. It's when you're not, then he's, he's the first one to call you out on it. And I appreciate that, you know. Growing up playing sports, I get like, you know, it's important. And I think things have changed with digital because in the film days, like, everything was precious. Like, films rolling, it's literally a precious commodity commodity.

So I met South somehow as a gaffer and worked with them, you know, in commercials for quite a few years. And then at the same time, I was starting to shoot more in Canada and I had a Canadian agent. And I was working for Sal and Derek Walski here in L.A. and then kind of building my DP reel in Canada. And then Sal started asking me to operate sometimes, you know, camera stuff, long lens stuff. And I'd say that I learned a lot from Sal. I think one of the things that stands out to me is that management aspect.

You know, like he manages his set really, really well. And that was, I think, the turning point. Because, you know, working with Derek Walski, he's very creative. And he has a lot of, not that he doesn't manage well. but the things I took away from him were creative and the things I took away from working with Sal were management things and managing people and time, the clock. He's also exceptionally good at managing expectations,

which, you know, I'm always learning how to do that better. So, no, but I really appreciate it. And, you know, I think both these gentlemen have been a testament to longevity for this industry, you know, which is encouraging, especially given the current state of affairs that, you know, know, it's, I think sometimes the DP can be the most senior person on set these days. Yeah, but isn't, wasn't that the case oftentimes, like, even going back to like the golden age and, you know, like, what, anywhere. But, I mean, the whole, the history of film, wasn't it, that the, basically studios would just put DPs with directors and then they'd be like, if I can make it, make it look good.

Well, it used to take a long time to get there, too. You had to work your way up and wasn't, wasn't necessarily easy. and I do tease it like, some of these guys retire already? No, I'm kidding. I would like your job. I'm a coldly kidding. No, but it's true.

But I think one of the reasons, too, is that it's constantly changing, so you're engaged all the time. You're learning new stuff. You're learning different ways, especially with the advent of LEDs and the advent of digital. And I mean, it seems now there's a whole new slew of lights out

every 16 months, and there's a whole new camera every other year. And, you know, It's really fascinating to stay abreast of all this stuff. It's a full-time job, really. Yeah, they're actually, hold on. This company, Molesus, Erno Ziyun, just sent me this. What is that?

A lens of some kind? No, this is a fucking light. I saw that. It's catastrophically bright for 100 watts. And it's so compact. I mean, some of the LED are really heavy. Yeah, this thing is like, that's the battery, right? Amazing.

And it's got a Bowens mount adapter if you want it. But I literally just got it like 10 minutes before. But I'm telling you, man, like you could punch for like, again, thinking documentary. Like if you're just augmenting some window light, get some like, I haven't done any. I did color tests for a quick second. That's clean. Yeah, it's got. It's got a, I think they game the system a little bit.

It was like 300, just at 5600. It was like 300 Kelvin off, but a delta UV of negative zero zero one. So like whatever. Or zero treat whatever. And then TM30 was good. TLCI was 99. SSID was like 76, but whatever, man. It's a $200 light that's the size of a pack of playing cards.

Right, and it's not heavy, you can rig it, you can stick it anywhere. How loud is that fan? It didn't kick on initially, so I think it waits until it gets hot, but we'll find out. They sent this to me to review it, so this is not a, because I write for Pro Video Coalition. I think you kind of touched on that. Like, you know, when you're having mixed light, you're just trying to wrap the light around a little bit. You're just trying to feel like, you know, bouncing into the wall. And one of the things that's fascinating to me about LEDs and digital together is like in

in the film days, a little green spike or a little magenta spike was huge. I made a giant, minus green on stuff. And now it could be, you know, very green, but for somehow the sensors aren't as sensitive because maybe there's no motion layers. I don't really know the science behind it. But you can get away with a lot, you know, in that regard, and especially with mixed lighting. And I love to mix light. I love mixed color temperatures.

I find it's fun to create a little bit color contrast instead of, you know, toned contrast. That kind of helps things feel maybe darker or more stylized without actually, you know, scaring the producers that they can't see their actors. Yeah. I think, I do think that the, the lack of sensitivity to white-like colors in digital is a negative. Even though it makes it easier to mix light and stuff and not have the, like, it does, it does feel like that might be some of the quote unquote film magic that is lost.

Sure, absolutely. I mean, colors are, you know, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing, right? Film was as alchemy and there's science, there's art, there's a little bit of luck, good and bad. And that was the, that's the draw. You know, and I also think that that's what's made more of a learning curve and that you have to actually learn this stuff. And now it's not expensive to go trial and air things and check them out.

You're just burning ones of zeros. And, you know, I do miss that, you know, sensitometry and doing, you know, film tests. And I came up in the 80s or late 80s or the 90s when we were baking film and cross-processing and, you know, doing all kinds of fun stuff. And I miss all that, too, you know, like opening the door on the camera or unseating the lens, Like just all that fun stuff shooting the flashlight down to IPs. Just film was such a like just the open palette that you could put your mark on that stuck. And it was very fun to explore that.

And it's funny how those happy accidents give you another tool in your tool bag for some artistic stylization. Yeah. And now most of that you kind of either have to pre-bake with like a show lot or like I've certainly, I ask as often as possible. can I be my own colorist? Unless it's something that like I know I like someone needs to make this is an amazing piece of work. Someone else needs to make it look incredible.

So we went an award or something. But if it's just if we're on a budget, I'm like, give it to me. I'll fucking make it. Because there's like little tweaks. You know, I wish I could have flagged that. Well, now it is. You know, they don't know what I wanted. Well, I mean, I think that that's the one of the advantages of having that experience is because

especially with the clock ticking all the time. Like sometimes I'm like, ah, just don't worry about that that cider. can do that easily imposed and, you know, three minutes, I can just power window that wall down where, you know, otherwise I got to get a 12 buy and some sandbags, the six guys. And so having that experience in the, in the coloring to know what's possible later on, you know, even if it makes the cut, then you could do it. But, you know, I was there. Like I just, this film that I think we're going to eventually talk about soon is I had to do the DIY remotely on an iPad or in New York and Orleans. and I actually snuck away and saw a screening of it last night. And I, you know, I was like, oh, God, I wish I was there.

You know, there's so many things that I don't think many other people will see. But, you know, and we didn't, I never got to see a projected version. Right. And, you know, now it's just like I kick myself. And that happened to me too during COVID. I had shot two shows. I had to color remotely. And also never seen in the theater, you know, seeing it on a bitching 42-inch screen in the perfect room.

Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Well, that's the other thing, too. Speaking of COVID stuff is like once now when like interview, I mean, granted much lower stakes on my end, but just to try to out edge, you know, people with a better CV or whatever, this makes people think like, oh, I mean, the Zoom looked. good. He must be a good DP. Hey, I like, a sales call, right?

You know, and I figure if I can't light myself relatively well, like what kind of faith you're going to have? Yeah. Look, I'm not getting any younger. I just want a nice soft,

like, you know, it lives forever, I say. That's my argument too. It's like, hey, you know,

the pictures live forever. You know, your meal penalty is going to be quickly forgotten. So, you know, that's off the record with the 80. Yeah, yeah. But it's important to me to,

to, to understand that there's a long half-life for whatever is out on the internet these days. Yeah. Sometimes I do wake up in a cold sweat. Like, did I, in 260 episodes, did I say something really fucking stupid that I should delete? I hope so because that's part of the deal. You don't want to be too, like, I don't know, careful. Oh, I'm fine with being actually dumb.

I mean, like, something like that I wasn't supposed to say, you know, like, NDA or you know, just being, being too yappy. Well, and now, yeah. I mean, it's a crazy world out there. Yeah. I really learned how that's changed on set a lot, you know, with the presence in advent of HR. And, you know, when I was coming up,

there was people were throwing sea stands and guys, you know, grips have their shirts off. And, you know, I mean, we hired the unemployable for the most part. We were carnies. And really changed now, you know, for the better, for sure. It's just interesting to see that. transition over the years.

Yeah, I've always, you know, I grew up being a magician and so you end up hanging out with weird kids. And I think magic was, I was, I always, it was like, magic's the last best of vaudeville and filmmaking is not too far behind. Like it is, if, if, like, I always say, like, if you don't enjoy, if you think theater kids are the cringiest people in the world and you hate being around them, you probably shouldn't be in film. No, absolutely, absolutely.

Because we're all that person, we just have better restraint. Or, yeah, or, you know, it wasn't winter in Minnesota and you were outside naked films. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting. I think there are some stereotypes throughout the departments, you know, and it's kind of fun to watch. The camera guys are definitely a little bit more nerdy. Sound is definitely a little more nerdy. You know, and then you have the stunt guys.

and then, you know, I love the PAs because you get a bunch of different people starting to get introduced and they're all different, you know, and they all have a story. And I love the PAs that come all prepared with, you know, a cube tap and gloves and the number two. And I love it. And you can see where they're headed, where they think they're headed, you know, but they're prepared. I was the same way. I had a Gerber or no, what was the same? Leatherman had a leatherman and next to my pager. And, you know, it's the same way because, but you start to learn what you really need and what you don't.

You know, it's funny. It's when you wear gloves anymore, you know, the lights aren't hot like they were. Yeah. I have to say the Leatherman, this is hot take. Probably one of the most useless things on set. What, 100%? There's too many tools you don't need on it. And the thing pinches your hand every time you squeeze the thing and you can't get the knife, Al.

And it's, yeah. You just need big knife, Robo grips. Yeah, robo grips love them. That's it. And gloves. And gloves. You know, cut yourself. I was going to say the, going back, because you would, you would, you had nicely dovetailed

us into it and then we got sidetracked again. But the, was it the devil's mouth? I wrote down the names of things. That must have been. What? No, I'm sorry. That must have been a nice call to get after your entire history of, and like, childhood dream of shooting underwater.

You're like, hey, movie underwater, let's go. Absolutely. I mean, luckily, I've had some underwater stuff, you know, periodically sprinkled through. I did a TV show called The Haunting of Blind Manor. We had a, there's a lake thing. There's a bit of underwater work there. I did American Horror Stories. There was an episode called The Lake with Lisa Silverstone, who was phenomenal.

And there was a bit of waterwork there. We had a tank. We shot in a real lake. and then sometimes I'll go out and operate and do underwater stuff. You know, I have friends throughout the industry and I've done stuff on a rookie. I did stuff on Scorpion back of the day. People that know that that's an interest of mine. Were you with Joanna on the rookie?

No. So it was a, what was the episode? Oh, it was like a fire rescue goes into this tank. It was on fire. It was super fun. That show really got out of hand. And they have a new one coming out. I think they're going to shoot at Rookie North.

Like it's in Canada or something. Wonderful. That's interesting. I mean, I like that it's just, you know, the more work that stays here in L.A. The better. And, you know, those network shows are great because they employ a lot of people. You know, and they have double jobs and they have, you know,

D and C camera days. where they're bringing people in and they're leapfrogging and I think it's really, really healthy for us to keep those shows around town. Yeah. Well, and also there's, they're for somewhat, like,

even I enjoyed, well, I was going to say like house, but house was maybe a different thing, but any of those types of shows, like, I always say, like, there's no, you can't yuck anyone's yum,

first of all, because there's all, there's crazy shit that's making a million dollars in the anime space. Like, just, insane, like,

Insane if you put it in text and hand it put it. You'd get banned from Twitter for saying whatever the hell's going to. But there's something for everyone. And it's always fun. And also if you're going to get into filmmaking, you can't. I hate when like on forums, people are like, oh, this sucked. I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe it did. But you don't put that into the world.

Like, be a friend. Keep that inside. People say that kind of something like, oh, what did you make? You know. Right. You actually do because it's it's a small miracle to actually get something finished and out. You know, there's a lot of pieces and puzzle and there's a lot of processes and a lot of pitfalls didn't go wrong. And I mean, from finances to availability to all kinds of things, we all know.

But like anime and animation, I'm always loved because every single thing you see has been thought about. The color of the light, the color of the light, the direction of the light, the, you know, whatever is in the background. the blocking. It's all been thought about it. It's not like, oh, we kind of got a great location and we just, you know, adapted to what was there. So I think it's a really good tool for, you know, cinematographers, Burgundy cinematographers, photographers, that they can analyze what the scene is. Like, oh, look at that. They have sunlight streaming through. It's a little bit warm. And there's, oh, look, they have a long shadow. Whatever it is, it's really easy to kind of like digest and dissect to see what somebody's thought about how that is. And it's a great roadman. map in my mind. Yeah, especially the older stuff. Like pre pre probably like 2010 I want to say like when they were hand drawing. Yeah, of course. Every frame. You know, there's some gorgeous. Obviously, you're your ghost in the shells and whatever, but like trie gun was a big one. I remember back with it. But anyway, I will never be on the rails ever with this fucking show. Anyway, the underwater stuff. I wanted to know because you said you've done underwater stuff before. And obviously the

majority of this movie takes place in a cave. So what is the, what were the sort of the easier parts and the more difficult parts of spending, A, all of your time in the water, but B, in a stage? Well, we shot a lot of stuff in the water out in, in nature. We shot in the ocean. And we shot way up in the mountains in Thailand above Shanghai in rivers and real caves. When the, when the, when the, when the characters first land, we shot.

in the real grotto that we had to time perfectly with the ties to go in and shoot a whole scene and get out. We had four cameras the whole time. Two were dedicated in water housings. One was usually on a crane of some kind. And then we had a long lens that that was either on Dolly or on this case, we built platforms that floated and got either swam in or towed in to wherever we were. And we started to film out that way to kind of show the scope of these cave systems, the river systems and the natural beauty. of Thailand. And then we eventually moved on to stage where we were able to do some of the more complicated

stuff and have a little bit more control. You know, I think some of the difficulties out in the wild are weather conditions, water conditions, water clarity, wildlife, there, the heat. And water movement is a big deal. You know, you're shooting the ocean. You're trying to keep people staying on their marks. There's current. Floating T marks just.

Well, we ended up doing on stage mostly, but we ended up taking water bottles and taping it with the color as we normally would do. And then putting weights down on there so that we had little floats. And the second AC would swim down and move the weights to put the floats where we roughly marked. But then the camera would drift off six feet. And so it was imperative for me that we had a techno crane out there so that we could make minor adjustments as people moved. And we had some instances where we had rope going out where the actress could hold. hold on to that kept them in place. There's also a time we had safety divers holding their feet, you know, and, you know,

there's one time the safety diver was doing, and they got a red wet seat on. It's like, okay, we had to paint that out. But, yeah, well, there's a lot of air as weather is a big issue. Wind, waves, we had a few times where we had these squalls that would come across the ocean, and it was just complete mayhem with things flying in the air. We're grabbing a hold the crane down, grabbing stuff. And you could see it coming. You'd see this like disturbance across the water maybe, you know, a mile or half a mile away.

And within like 45 seconds it's on you. And hitting sideways and, you know, it's sun exposure, hot. I think in Thailand, there's not real. There's jellyfish are pretty prominent. So that's an issue. And then there's snakes. And we had a old-time snake wrangler. And I've told the story a couple times recently.

This guy was such a character. He was probably in the 60s, maybe a little bit older. He would dye his beard and his hair a different color every day. And he swore that he could smell snakes. And lo and behold, he would find him. And, you know, there some were venomous. None of them were ever threatened us. He was, you know, on a mission, I think, to prove his outer perimeter guy.

But still, you know, it's something. You ask these actors, six actors, to get into the water in a dark cave. And you don't know what's down there, really. in. So that was, you know, those are some of the challenges. And then lighting these caves in the real life were challenging. We came up with all kinds of ways to float lights, battery operated LEDs, which, you know, in this day and age, is so so convenient. There's back of the day we had to run cable and we probably would have ran DCs, which would have limited some of the lights we could use.

And, but we would find ways to do it. And it was challenging and really, really rewarding. well because the Thai people worked super hard and I had a gaffer that was just phenomenally intelligent and he was a great problem solver one of the issues we had is there's no real underwater lighting in in Thailand and it was kind of cost prohibited to ship from LA ship from London or Australia so like vortexes or whatever I'm sorry get our can you can you submerge vortexes or they're just water resistant but you yeah housing's for all that stuff

It's expensive and it's heavy and there's frayed and timing. So we ended up taking everyday pool lights from swimming pools and grouping them together in these big giant tin troughs. We cut holes in it, put five, six in there, and then take another trough, cut the bottom out, attach it and put a snoot on it and then sandwiched diffusion in the middle and then run all that on batteries. And I would mix color temperatures in there a little bit. that it kind of blended.

And at first we struggled because there was kind of a large green spike in it. And while we were designing these and stuff, and crap, I was like, oh, that's a problem. But then as we scouted and started to see the real-life water columns, there's definitely a green hue to a lot of that stuff, especially in the rivers. And it kind of helped when we went back on stage to bring that color to our water column. Hindsight, what I thought was a problem ended up being a little bit of a blessing. And it was another reminder of like, you know, filmmaking is not an exact science and, you know, happy accidents, embrace everything, figure out workarounds. I mean, we just problem solve.

It's all we do like we're talking about. And then, uh, techno crane all the time. We had a technical crayon barge. Uh, we had a textile crayon stage on a platform that we designed with casters, these amazing, like three real casters that could roll around on the base of the tank. It just allowed us. We built this tank on stage that was a hundred and. 80 feet long by 80 feet wide, I think it was. They just took steel plates and welded them up like fence around really square.

Wait, how deep did you say? C. Six? Oh, okay. Then we had, there was an existing tank on that, on that lot that was 16 feet deep by like 60 feet by 40 feet. So we did a lot of the stuff in the shallow water that was a little more controllable. And then when we needed deeper water, we would go. move to that tank.

And, you know, there was a little bit of a matrix in there about continuity, continuity, continuity the water. One thing that is hard to do and that I've learned over the years is everything that goes in the water and usually get washed. And so I asked for four showers on each corner, wherever there's an entrance, everything gets washed off before it goes in the water. But we were turning sets over overnight and moving rocks in there. And I'd show up early in the morning and there'd be 30 of the Thai crew in the water, you know,

and with shorts and T-shirts and equipment and, you know, the best laid plans. But, you know, it ended up, I struggle. We brought in new filters. You know, I struggled with water clarity for sure. But again, in hindsight, I think in the film, it makes things murky and kind of dingy, which I think actually lends a little bit to the tension so that you don't really know it's, you know, a little bit farther past the person. So again, it's just another thing that was a problem that we worked as, did the best we could to eliminate,

but it ended up, I think, helping the film a little bit at the same time. So water caught. Yeah. How do you make, how do you light a cave realistically? Yeah, that was a, that was, you know, that was tough. So it's kind of a convoluted story, but the natural caves, a couple of them had big entrances and we used that as a motivator to push light in. Some of them had some like openings in the ceiling.

And we took that to stage the art director, this amazing art director, Alec Amman. He built these incredible caves. I mean, they're huge. All over the ceiling, the stays were huge. But initially he had all the walls and the ceiling designed in there. And we started talking about lighting and where lights are going to come from. He changed and he made ceiling pieces all on chain motors that could move and lower and started to designing holes in these ceiling pieces that we call chimneys.

And so we would drive light through there. And I ended up making a bunch of different soft boxes because reflection on the water is another issue too. You could introduce a light, but with four champs and cranes, like you start getting a reflection. So we had to have some soft ambience that had sort of an oily, really smooth reflection. And so we made these giant soft boxes. And we used me called snow. It's like that kind of packing foam.

Really soft. What do they call it? Rigid cell foam. It's like that's a little bit more like the stuff that's in stuffed animals. It's kind of got a little fur. But there's big blankets of it. And we would put those on these big soft boxes that could pan, till, lower, rays. And because of the roofs, we had to build them around the different roof sections.

And sometimes a new roof section would come in. We'd suck that up. So that would give us our overall ambience. And then there was sometimes, you know, whole. and little places where we could bring some light through. And then there's all these stalactites and slagmite. So we use lights on boats. We made little floats out of mats.

We made floats out of like little kids' boats. And we floated light mats. And a couple of times we had some really big stands that went all over the ground. And then we had the underwater lights I discussed. And then in prep, we were like, okay, so where's what's going to motivate the light? And we came up with this idea that the guide would have a lantern. as if he was a guide and he always had ambient light a little bit. So that was something that he swam with and went through the caves with.

It kind of always gave us a motivator. And we made that a little bit warmer. And I got that idea from going to the real caves where the guides had lamps on their boats. I mean, because they are, it's pitch black. You go six, eight feet into a cave now, it's pitch black. So the guides all have these, you know, beautiful tie lanterns on their boats. And that was sort of a motivator. and then all the characters we decided would have headlamps.

And at first, great, there's light. Then I was like, oh, what happens when they get too close to each other? They get far away and they blow it out. So, you know, we tried making them dimmable and that stuff. It was a little hard to do all that in a small headlamp package. They were clickable to different settings. Did a bunch of testing. We got it down.

But, you know, ultimately one of the characters would click it to another level or they would bump something in, the light would be askew. And so I spent an in or not amount of time communicating with the cast about their headlamps. Like, tilt it on, tilt it down, tilt it up, tilt it up. You know, and then we have little sessions where we would put two together.

And I'd say, okay, see how your headlamp is lighting your friend? Like, you know, so if you see, it's bad, just tilt your head a little bit. And they were phenomenal. I mean, they should all get lighting department credits for sure. I was literally about to be like, so how do you get them to act and, you know, direct

the beam. Yeah, that's a tough job for them. So they'd like a meandic. You know. And sometimes you need like these things from airports. And you know, I mean, the kids are in the water all day, every day. I mean, they were phenomenal.

The cast, they showed up. I think, you know, Nico is an athlete's a skateboarder, a surfer. He was easy. But they trained, they got certified for scuba, they did underwater breath holding lessons, and it was really, really great to watch their maturation and their comfort level in the water. From the very first day we started out in the wild and they're like, they're all very, you know, they all had trepidation about getting in the water too.

I think the last few days, they were holding their breath for 30 minutes and just going down and taking hookah breaths off the safety divers and never coming up to the surface. There's a scene in James's death where he's stuck and the girls are trying to pull him. And we shot that. It was pretty much a full day and they were just phenomenal and tireless, tireless. And it's taxing. I don't know. You spend much time in the water and it drains you. Even if it's warm, you get cold, just constantly swimming, you know, constantly getting water at your nose and your throat.

And they didn't bat an eye. They didn't block once not one time. It was incredible. Yeah, you really do have. to have a level of fitness to even in a six foot tank. Like I'm five nine. I'm not, you know, I got a tread. Sure.

I was, you know, I mean, I'm six feet, but that's here, not here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was interesting, you know, from a camera standpoint, too, we ended up having scaffolding with sliders on them. And then we would undersling, you know, on a lambda. And so we could lower the lens right down to the water. And the operator would stand on the scaffolding and be able to. to move that way. We had the Sony Venice and Rialto mode,

and we would float the back on a little boat or a little raft, and then the head would be up on a mat with our own plastic bags that we would make, and we could be water level there. And then we had two water housings. We had we brought one from HydroFlex, and then that kind of always stayed on the crane or on the hydrohead on sticks. Or a couple of times we did down, We took risers and put them down in the water and had Dolly Track with the hydrohead and the HydroFlex.

And then we used the Nauticam housing for the Sony Venice. And that was sort of our free swimming housing and our surface kind of split level stuff. So we had all these tools rolling all the time. We rolled four cameras 98% of the time. Oh, really? It was a lot of you. How are you protecting angle? Are you just all on one side of the line?

or we fanned out a lot, you know, and that was, I think, one of the interesting conversations that Jeff, the director and I had is, you know, I started out saying, we have no problem. We could do that. We just, let's just stay 90 degrees. And he's like, okay, cool, 90 degrees. I'm like, no, 90 degrees. That was kind of our running joke about geometry and like, who needs a geometry lesson today, you know, we'd prod each other about it. But, you know, we fanned it out. And I'm, you know, I struggled a little bit with lighting for that.

always try to have a short side, always try to have an eye light. And, you know, I had the acquiesce here and there just because we have a lot of work to do. Everyone's in the water. And then there's places to hide stuff. You know, the rocks were helpful. We could move them. They were on casters on some of that. We could move them around.

And then the long lens could be off someplace. You know, we had a couple of camera ports that we could open and shoot through. And then out in the wild, we would find place to hide and stuff. Yeah. You know, and we had a lot of crane stuff. So we'd have this and, you know, this and cross coverage and then a wide down low. And that's four jammers. I mean, thank God we didn't have six.

We would have shot them all the same time. We'd have another camera. We had an FX3 in a Nauticam housing that we mounted on scuba scooter and the shark POV. And that was the camera that I operated. It was so much fun. I loved it. The Thai guys were a little unsure about it. because you'd get going pretty fast on that thing

and it's a little bit of a B-A-M-th. And there's rocks everywhere and there's talent. And so I would do that, Sharp POV-1. And it was so much fun. It was a blast. You see the, I don't know how much of a tech nerd you are,

but you see the FX-5 business? Yeah, fascinating. I just saw, was it, Hoyke did a test with it? Claudio. Claudia did, yeah, yeah, I just saw it. I love the guys over at Sony. They're great. So, no, I'm really fascinated by that camera.

Just now the things that we do, like having a, that's one of the reasons why I love the Sony family is there's, you know, different form factors to solve whatever problem you have. And I love the Rialto mode so much with car work. Even, even right before I went to Thailand, I did a, this is so not glamorous. I did a standard toilet commercial, the company that makes faucets. Hell yeah, dog, that pays the bills. And I was in all these bathrooms. And thank God I had the Rialto because I was able to get in a lot of different places I couldn't have with the camera. And that's just, it's such a viable tool.

Quick. First sidebar we've ever done. Lighting bathrooms. Do you have like a system that works for you? Because I feel like every time they're like, and then we go in the bathroom, like, please let there be a window. No. And then you just end up putting a tube above the mirror and it feels so uninspired. Yeah.

God, I've been in that situation so many times, like in the shower, like the shower curtain, like stuck on my face. No, and if there's not one, not a window, you know, fake one, put a pattern on a wall or, you know, do some sort of way to fake one. And then, you know, balance. It's really hard to make a bathroom look sexy. That's a real bathroom. You know, bathroom on set with walls, you can fly away or work with the production designer to create a window. Oh, that's a different thing. No, it's always a challenge, you know.

And it's funny because a lot of times we end up locations where we didn't really get to scout or give opinions about it. Or they love the kitchen, but the bathrooms are a pain in the ass. Or there's some element that everybody's attached to the agency or whoever. But, you know, I'm always fighting for more room. But it's so big. I go, we can make things that's smaller. We can't make things bigger.

But no, it's frustrating. But again, that's what's so great about all these small form factor cameras is you know, we can actually get into these spaces now and have a little bit of room. And now with all these lenses that have close focus abilities, you know, there was, until recently, you know, like Zoom lens, like you had to be six feet away from somebody to be able to focus. And the lens itself is three feet long. And so now with more modern lenses, with close focus, smaller bodies, we can really

get into these tight spaces. Yeah, I just picked up. This is how I, now I'm a real DP. I got the old Lika M4. He's dope. It's so good. And now I get it. Because I, all of my, I would never get a like a digital, maybe a, maybe the monochrome.

But like digital like a, yeah, okay, it's, it's good build quality, whatever. But the image is just as good as my Fuji films. Um, or anything. Uh, but with, with SLRs, two, I don't want to. I don't want to carry that with me. And this has just been very easy to carry. I'm in the same boat. You know, for years, I carried a little fanny pack around with, oh, wait, hang on.

Let me change a lens. And it's just, you end up not using it. You know, not taking it, you know. And with the advent of the iPhone, I find myself just been like, I'm not following. It's fine. You know, and I've been looking for a small camera like that that I can carry with me that has, you know, beautiful optics and is dedicated. So I'm going to look into that.

Yeah, this beat stuff up all the time. And it's just like having a robust build is an Uber important for me. The only thing is I'm poor. So I got a, seven, it was it seven artisans 35 mil instead of a sumilux or whatever. But all these Chinese lenses are actually quite good. Like it's not that big deal. The amount of glass out there is incredible. I don't know how these people are surviving.

in this in this climate and i don't i don't know like i talked to um i'm pretty tight with kezlo and i talked to them about to denis about all the time i go you guys have to buy so much stuff just because you're you're gonna you know people want it and how do you decide on what you pay for what's the rio on it and then everything has a shelf life now you know with with the new 65 stuff out all the you know super 35 stuff is getting dust and um it's just so much out there it's overwhelming and then for me like i'm about to start prep on it on another movie and I started thinking about okay what what's the camera package and glass going to be and I'm just like wow there's so much out there I would think it'd be fun to actually have a business that

that tests and put up really comprehensive lens tests out there I know there's some but there's new lenses every day how do you how do you so you know and and also I've learned that like until you go do a show with them and you put them through their paces you don't really know it's like oh look we're shooting this and there's some lens there's some lights back there and they flare and and, you know, oh, that's cool, all right. But, you know, until you are shooting at a place with a big open garage and like, oh, wait, there's some veiling flares, which I can't stand. Yeah. You know, there's, it's just so hard to know unless you really, really put them through their paintings.

That's one of the reasons why, like, a buddy of mine made an app. There's also the company that made film, video village, made Filmbox also made an app called scatter, but a friend of mine made an app called, not an app, it's a plug-in for resolve called Digi-Dif. And I hate veiling glare. Unless there's like a reason for it. But it just generally, it's not my favorite thing. And something, but. Yeah. And so if we need diffusion, I just do it in post.

No one can tell the difference. Interesting. Huh. At least in like the low ends creative. But I know people use it on feature films. Because you don't want to introduce another element on the outside of the lens. It could potentially have. have that situation?

Correct. And it's controllable. So let's say I want more diffusion. You can window the diffusion, right? And you can more on the actual light source or less and more on the part, whatever you want. You know, you can art direct the diffusion. Yeah, that's an interesting thing because the stuff that usually works really well for skin, you know, doesn't do great for lights. And there's always trying to find that balance because it was really obvious.

But, you know, maybe you have an aging ingenue that needs some. you know, a Mitchell B. No, I'm kidding. And like all of a sudden now it looks, you know, like it's, you're in a sauna. Yeah. But that's interesting because I'm always trying to find that. And I've kind of just landed on Hollywood Black Magic is sort of my go-to. You know, I love soft effects.

There's, what was the one that had the little concentric golf ball circles? Kodak picture disc? No, it was like a Tiffin or a Schneider one. I loved it. But any time there was a light source or a flame. you would see all the gimbals. You know, it's, that's right. So having that local ability is crazy.

Yeah, I can get you. Do you have resolve? I don't really do that much of it really anymore, you know? Like, usually it's, it's, it's, you know, post house or, or, or a colorist. I would love. That's fair. I mean, I would love to, to be more adept at that. I mean, I could go down a rabbit hole just on eye photo.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just start tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and and now there's so many plugins. But mostly it's a colorist person that I work that stuff with. And they're amazing. Like a skilled colorist is incredible what they can do. Yeah. I'm pretty decent at my level.

And then I often have to like go and watch something done by an expert because then I'll come back to what I've done. And I'm like, nope, way too much. Way too much. style that back 50% because I'll tweak like crazy. Well, I think that's something that you have to keep reverencing back to the original, right? Because your eyes starts to get trained as stuff. I mean, you start to just like not see what you've done.

And then when you look at comparatively, like, oh, wow. Geez, okay, that looks very heavy-handed. Yeah. I've remembered why. The only reason I brought up the LICO is because you brought up old lenses that had bad close focus and that's something I've had to get used to here is on all the Likas, close focus is 0.7 meters and that's all you can do. SLRs you can kind of, you know, whatever.

Right, right. Had to close that loop. Well, do you have a minute or you got to go? Yeah, no, I'm good until I got like an hour. Okay, cool. Because I had two questions. One, I've been told to stop doing two hour, three hour podcast, but they keep happening. So whatever.

I'm having fun. We're camera nerd motion picture or people we could talk about this stuff for days. Yeah. The first thing is at the beginning of the discussion, you had mentioned painting with light, obviously it's a very famous book. Are there any other books that you've, that have either inspired you or used as reference or things that have helped you along your career? You know, there is one book that I referenced many, many times myself is Howard Schott.

That's his name, I believe. he's a still photographer. I believe his book is called Water Dance. And I think this book came out in the early 90s. And it is phenomenal underwater photography in a studio setting with, I think he used dancers. And so he's got, you know, fabric that flows with the water movement and there's reflections on the surface of the water until he blacked it all out.

And big giant light source, probably strobes. I always have gravitated towards that And I reference it a lot Especially on this movie of course And on some of the other underwater stuff So that book You know For a long time

Coming up with film I read the ASC manual all the time I was always looking stuff up there And I was always checking things out So basically those two I did not buy Deakin's book at the last event, but I want to. I want to read through that. Jay Holbin's books are amazing.

I mean, he's so fastidious about his information. So approachable. That's the latest one, yeah? Yeah, it's too fucking thick, man. Jay is one of my best friends. And at some point, I'm like, this had to have been AI. You can't, this output is impossible. How do you put out Shotcraft and this like so soon?

I know. But he's a wealth of knowledge, you know, and he loves that stuff. And I love that they've put books out in this day and age, you know. And it's sad that the books have kind of a little bit gone the way side, although I was just in my storage unit. I have boxes and boxes and boxes of books. I used to be a voracious reader. I'd read, you know, two books a month.

Now I'm like scrolling and I hate myself for it. You remind me of who Jim James is, the My Morning Jacket. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. He has a song on one of his, I think, solo albums, and it says, it's a song about a sexy librarian. And she goes, we're going to the house, the building with books in it. It seems like it doesn't, isn't any use anymore because we're all on digital. And it's so funny, it's true.

We're in a funny age where, you know, that stuff's kind of going by the wayside. I used to read the newspaper every day. Yeah. I don't miss the ink all of everything, but I do miss, you know, turning to page six to finish the article. And there was something romantic and nostalgic about, you know, reading newspaper or reading books.

Well, the reason I bring it up that now you've unlocked like three different things that I want to talk about. So the reason I ask people is because, ooh, I can combine thoughts. So as writing for Pro Video Coalition, I do, I mean, I'm on YouTube like anyone else, but I will keep an eye on what a lot of creators in the space, younger folks, who I, who I call students, are thinking. And then a lot of times I'll find a blind spot where they keep asking a question that's already been answered before. And then I'll use and then it can be a book, but anything, and I'll use that as a jumping off part to write an article or sometimes. I'll just make a quick video or whatever. But I do find myself with 48 tabs open. I've done the like article research part.

And now I'm watching like people make bread or woodworking or whatever, you know. And so I was like, all right, just take that time to read some books. But the problem is, is now that they're not in print anymore, like man with a camera, the Nestle-Almandros book, $100. I looked in it. It retailed for $20. 28. And 130 was like cheap.

Why in demand? You know, it's funny because coming up as a film student, you know, we didn't have, I didn't really have the internet. And I spent an in or amount of time, a news stance and Barnes & Noble and just thumbing through stuff, you know. Helmut Newton, Richard Avedon, you know, just looking at these pictures and travel books and even, you know, gardening books because just how plants and light interacted and water and and all that kind of stuff.

And I spent too much time in these places. And I kind of miss that. Now it's all my fingertips. I sit on my table and look through it. But like you, I'll find myself on the million tabs open because one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. And you can just ask. And all of a sudden, there's a whole new world.

And it's like, well, how did I get here? I just want to, you know, I do oftentimes I sit down to look up something and I, something else catches my attention. And then 10 minutes later, I'm like, what did I come here for? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and it's fascinating. And everything's right at our fingertips. Like YouTube's incredible.

You can be a brain surgeon now and just like, hang on. Let me look. Move the frontal cortex. Okay. I'm not very mechanic, but I love motorcycles and cars. And I've been starting to work on my stuff myself because all these videos are there. They're very, you know, approachable. I think there's the.

Well, two things. One, I'm noticing that the same young folks who came up online and are online first and don't think about books or newspapers or anything are now starting to reject it subtly. The fashion has, I mentioned this a handful of times, but like the fashion has gone back to the early 2000s, but so too has their relationship with technology where they don't want the newest thing. They do want something that was more like when we had flip phones and stuff. They don't want pagers. But they would be good with like a solid. as long as they could have a keyboard for texting. They want to Blackberry. They want to go back to Blackberry time and CDs and stuff. And so I think there might be in the next few years an interesting when these larger companies catch on. They'll start maybe pushing that a little bit more. But I think the board, sorry, interrupt you. No, no, go ahead.

It's going to cross the board, you know, like guys are riding old choppers now instead of new bikes. You know, people are listening to vinyl. People want to shoot film. Polaroids around now, you know, I see around everywhere. And I think the young generation, they can pick and choose things and mix and match them, which is really cool. You know, we, that was kind of frowned upon when I was, you know, in my youth. Now they can, you know, wear bell bottoms and a tight t-shirt or whatever it is. Like it can mix and mash to whatever they sue.

And you could be anybody you want to. I think it's a great time for young expressionistic, artistic people because they can adapt one day. And then the next day they could be goth. know, like, it's all good. Like, you don't have to buy in 100% to anything. Yeah, that, well, and that kind of, that actually does do, they're like, in parallel nicely what I was, what I was going to say, which was the danger, the great thing about, you know, YouTube and whatever in terms of you have an idea and you're like, how do I do that?

You can go look it up and someone tells you, go, sweet. The danger is when people, they learn something and then turn around and pretend like they're an expert and say it. Oh, yeah. And then they get like a huge following and now they're just the sole source of misinformation on a topic. That's so fascinating culturally and psychologically. I mean, you know, we see a lot with like health stuff and supplements and like exercise.

So, you know, some guys, this is how you do the exercise. And then like, you know, kinesiology is like, no, you're going to, you're going to hurt yourself. You do that way. But all of this then he's got, you know, 200,000 followers and he's doing some wacky. It kind of reminds me you're probably too young with the jerk when you had the nose thing, you know, it's like, oh, it's a great idea, you know, and then eventually you find out that it's not such a great idea. Yeah. I love that movie. But the, I think the thing that sucks is to your point, it's like such a lovely time. You have like anything, you can have anything.

But this also kind of, this is how my weird ass ADHD brain works. But when we were talking about like how film you could like whack it up or whatever but it was still constrained within the emulsion and digital is just you can it's so expansive you can do anything usually in the grade i think the issue is now that the younger folks have anything they can be anyone culturally or otherwise and so they don't know where to go they can't find a route anywhere but then also they're all being filmed there's this horrific panopiticon effect that is making it so they have every opportunity to do whatever they want. But the, as Stephen Pressfield calls resistance to that,

is so aggressive because they're being surveilled. And not just by their friends, but. Yes, too, in some regard. The which again? A judge in some regard, or at least they're self-conscious of each judge. Yeah. And I hate that.

Oh, you should be able to try things on, you know, back to what we were talking about with different departments. So you should be able to go try stuff in life. And I have a 17-year-old daughter. I'm like, try it. You know, it doesn't have to, you know, be you forever. You know, try sport. Try a dish.

Try, you know, try an activity and see if you like it. Try this music. That's the thing, too, about the younger generation is, you know, like, daughter will play a song. I'll sing a lot. How do you know this song? She's like, it's like, where do you know? She goes, oh, it's on YouTube.

I'm like, you know, that's something like, like, like, no, it's not. It just came out on song. So I'm like, yeah, because the time is expired and they can use it. the parent for it's that old. I saw this is, I don't blame this girl at all, but it did make me go like, oh, fuck. And this mom was like driving her daughter to school. And she starts filming and she goes, all right.

And again, the kids are being filmed all the time even by their parents. So whatever. But we'll ignore that for now. She goes, you can hear Eat It being played in the background. Weird Al Yankovich? Yeah. And they're in the car. And she goes, tell them what you told me.

And she goes, oh, I found this new, this, this, someone like this AI makes like fake songs of real songs. And she goes, what's the AI called? She goes, Weird AI. That is awesome. How innocent, though. That's kind of really cute. And honestly, you know, the issue is not her. The issue is not her.

The issue is serifs. She's looking at a sans serif font. Yeah, it's interesting. Like an eye. No, that's so funny. I mean, he was genius, though, as goofy as it was. He's still torn. That's amazing.

The camera thing is funny because I didn't grow up with cameras, you know, and we got away with a lot of stuff for the better, I think, too. I mean, you know, nothing criminal or whatever, but, you know, ding-dong ditch or water balloons or, you know, whatever it was. And nothing really lives forever. So I think we took more chances, you know, we did things that we didn't think we would live in perpetuity like they do. And I don't know if it's super healthy for us.

No. And I see that kids have gotten smaller. The worlds have gotten so much smaller. Geographically, they're bigger on the phone because they have access to everything. Like, you know, it used to take two years from music trying to go across the country. From New York to L.A. It'd finally meet in, you know, Cleveland two years later. but now everybody has access to the same stuff.

So they have, they're way more global, but their worlds are shrinking and they're smaller and they don't venture out as much. And I don't think that's healthy. And I lamented as a father giving my child the phone. And we waited for as long as possible until it became inconvenient for us. It's like, you didn't have a phone. I'd call you because I'm going to come pick you up. And in hindsight, it just, and the science is out there, too,

about the developmental issues. And anyways, we digress off of the devil's mouth. Well, to wrap that up, though, I think my advice to anyone who's in that position has always been, if you feel that way, that everything, you're under surveillance and everything, like, the more you ingrain yourself in your local community, the bigger the world will actually feel. Because your context clues for how big everything is, is how many people you know and how many friendships you've built and how many. places you can go and see a friendly face. In my neighborhood, there's only, you know, I live in a place that's got a bunch of great restaurants and places and stores and stuff. And I know most of the people working there.

And anytime I'm feeling a little weird, I'll like, I'll go visit whoever and just see and it's within walking distance. Really. Versus versus, and especially if you're over 21, you know, go find a local bar where you can hang out and meet. You end up meeting the greatest people at a good bar, not like a fancy bar. Always. No, I love going to the biggest die bar and sitting next to the most surliest looking person. And, you know, I've done it for years. I love it. And I've had the most incredible experiences and learned so much about people in human nature and myself. No, it's so fun. And, you know, as opposed to staying at home and ordering, you know, Uber Eats and looking at your 10,000 followers that really aren't your friends and you're not really having real conversations and exploring thoughts and ideas. Because that's the fun. part, right? It's like we've been doing like, oh, and that gives me an idea. And that gives me an idea.

I mean, that's socializing, you know, and I, I don't know. I think the kids are missing out on that. But then there's kids that are just fine. Yeah. It's just, I'll go pick up my daughter and there'll be 10 kids sitting on a bench and they're all like this. You know, and even on set, that happens. I've come off set and I'm like, hey, everybody, put your phone down, turn to the person to your left and say good morning and remind each other of your names, you know, and because people, they'll spend a whole season with somebody and they don't know them because, okay, you'll roll in, they just go, you know, and it's, it's, it's, I think we're missing out on the collective culture and helping one another, you know, have ideas and

communication, but. Sounds like a, old man now, huh? Well, no, I, because I, A, I agree, and B, it's not just young people, like certain, I've certainly been around old folks who are just like glued to their iPhone that's set to 700,000 font size. And hey, Gemini, tell me why this kid next to me is wrong. Yeah, sorry, dude. My bad. That's all right.

I've come to accept it. Yeah. But being at like a Dodgers game and seeing someone like looking up the craziest shit. And, like, everyone can read from five rows back. You're like, does your wife know you're doing that, dude? Like, get, stop. I mean, if you had, like, the guy's batting history up or, like, you know, it's never that. I don't understand.

Spend, you know, 800 bucks to go to the Dodger game and be on your phone. Yeah. I would say that baseball games are such a great outlet and just, I love going to the Dodger games or any place. I'm luckily, you know, working in this business. I get to travel and I always go to sporting events or music events and around. I always try to find what's here and I, you know, and it's great because they ask travel all over and I've seen and it's great because you know, you're, I was, if you're in Cleveland or you're in like St. Louis, whatever, you can actually rock up and get a ticket as opposed to like, oh, if you didn't

get tickets to each other for Highland Bull, you're screwed. And I'm seeing events and stuff out of town. You get to really see what the locals are like and local cultures like. well and that like that's honestly my now that I am finally traveling for work instead of granted again we do want everything to shoot here but especially in documentary you got to go to where the story is right and being in like Seattle and DC and West Virginia and Paris and Spain and all this stuff I just do the same thing I do here which is go to a hockey game go to a local dive bar I haven't gone to see a concert but like

baseball game, whatever. I just do the same thing I do here and you end up meeting the most wonderful people. It's so ingratiating. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So does that mean your kings or your ducks? Sharks.

Well, of course, San Jose. Yeah. I do, I, the last, I don't know, six, seven years,

I do all the stuff at the NHL at the beginning of the year where we, you know, shoot a whole library of all the, all the, you know, the top tier guys. and then we do interviews and it's so much fun. We've been doing it in Vegas like the last six or seven years.

I was in Chicago before. I find the hockey players to just be super nice. They're gentlemen. They're polite. They're on time. They're, they're incredible athletes. I mean,

the speed and these guys skate with and the stick in the plaque handling is nuts. And it's one of them, I look forward to it every September. It's so much fun. Yeah. I was at some of the very first. Sharks games ever as a kid and played hockey in college, not for the college, but in college. He's still playing now?

You know, once the pandemic hit, I slowed down and became fat. And now I just, my buddy, who's the doc director slash producer, there's two of them that kind of do the same job. But when I went to college with, he plays like in two different leagues. So he'll play like two games in a day. And he's just like, bro, come on. And I'm like, I sucked before. Now it's going to be bad. We're also like, yeah, we have a 1 a.m. game today.

And Thursday's 11.30 p.m. It's like, what? Okay. I don't want to get ice time. You know, it's nuts. Yeah, they need a lunch league. What's a good idea? I'll start it.

You and I can pitch the Kings on it. I'll just go over there. That's where I used to play. It was over here. All right. We'll wrap this up with questions. that I know someone would want me to ask you. And that is I'm not, I'm not a giant horror person personally,

but I know that the Flanagan films are incredibly popular. How many of those have you done? Like three or four series and a film. Okay. Yeah. I work with Mike quite a bit. I was always like the second call. There's another DP, Mike Finiore, who's a director or two.

And you would also sometimes work on the same series. He would actually shoot the episodes he was directing, which, you know, I would always think, how could you do that? And then I would also say, well, there's only one voice. So maybe it's a little bit easier. I don't know, you know. But, yeah, working with Mike was just really, really fun. Pushes your abilities.

And I learned a lot of things about, again, management and prep and organizational skills. because I kind of kind of can I was like I don't know get two actors and two cameras over here and you know we'll make some shit but with him it's like you know plots and diagrams and plans and and I think that that helped me a lot to be forced to do that those kind of things and then he's just he's super smart really cerebral very nimble problems come up he finds a solution right away and just you know I think his his material is is definitely horror but it's not gratuitous in any way it's very interesting and thinking and I think there's a lot of insights into human nature and culture. So it's, you know, there's a lot of things that fall underneath the horror umbrella. I think that's why people are starting to call it genre because there's monster movies,

there's flashers, there's a whole host of different types of material under that umbrella. And I think maybe initially people give it, like kind of discounted something, if you called it horror. But in hindsight, looking back at, you know, history of cinema, there's a lot of things that Jaws was a horror movie, the monster movie. And, you know, I don't know, the birds, like, you know, all that stuff. What was the one I always said? Oh, Cape Fear.

I mean, that's the dormant. So there's all these kind of films that maybe wouldn't necessarily be called horror movies, but now I think they would definitely fall under the genre thing, which I think lends more credibility to that whole space. Yeah, and actually, now that you say that, that's a good note because, I've learned that I'm not like, like when I was younger, like Saw had just come out, which actually I found very compelling. The ring I had to watch with every single light on in the house. And then, yeah, and then once it got into like the hostile movies, I was like, I don't love this.

And then when Saw got super gross, you know, I was like, it just doesn't make me happy. But there's so, I was just talking to someone the other day and they kept naming all these films that I would have called horror. And they're like, what about this? I was like, no, I liked that. And they're like, what about this? And I was like, well, no, I like that one too. They're like, so you do like horror films. And I was like, I didn't think that.

But I guess I do. Same way, I am not a slasher fan. I don't really like a two of his blood. And, you know, was not, you know, Friday the 13th was not anything like that. Freddie Kruger, you know, I would just, it doesn't scare me. The devil scares me. Other human beings, scare me. you know um event horizon yeah right uh and i find that um it's really interesting that there's a big

giant subset of humans that want to be scared like they like that feeling and they go and search it out you know and um and having sat through some testing and seeing audience's reactions and being you know i kind of fell into this genre and i i tease i just want to do romantic comedies which i don't um but i just want to put a like you want to do john wick huh 100%. Yeah. You've run in John Rick, born identity,

you know, that's kind of where I want to go to, which was a great thing for me with the, with the, bellow's mouth is because it's leaning more into the action kind of thing. And,

um, but I do enjoy the, the, the lighting aspect of the genre of stuff. Because I can, we can make things dark and we can use darkness as a character. We can, it's okay to let things fall off.

In fact, I think he should be doing that because what you don't see is oftentimes way more, um, effective than what you do see. our imaginations kind of plug in what's missing. And each and everybody has a different idea of what's in there, you know. And I think that that's what's fun for me as a cinematographer is to really lean into the darker kind of stuff.

And I find it I'm constantly walking at tightrope. Like, what is cool dark and what does not get hired again dark? Right. What is that exactly? And I defer usually to the director and producers and stuff like that because it's a collective endeavor. and like, what do you guys want with this? You know, I'm happy to go as far as you want. You know, and I tend to try to build in a lot where if we had to pull something out later, we can,

which is a little bit non-committal, but that's me in a nutshell. No, I'm kidding. You know, I just think there should be choices later sometimes. But I don't really care for, you know, slasher stuff. It's the thinking, thriller, whodunit. I love that stuff. as a viewer. Same. Yeah. So when you're with someone, you know, you're working on a bunch of shows, bunch of movies, whatever it may be consistently. I assume there's a lot of the same crew.

What what then becomes, because I've now experienced this myself, what I'm interested for your take is like, what do you no longer have to do? Like every time you start a new gig with a new director and a new, there's like a bunch of get to know you stuff. There's a bunch of stuff. There's a bunch of stuff in prep that you probably have to like have a checklist of like, all right, every time it's a new time. What does the stuff you no longer have to do when you've collaborated on so many projects? Well, that's interesting. I think I don't know if there's like a set program or, you know, because a lot of times

different location, different crew. To me, location speaks a lot to what we're doing and what our approach is, what equipment you need, how much time you need. So there's no real template for me. at least not at this point in my career. I think a lot of it is talking about what is inspired, what references are. I think references are super, super important.

You know, what's read to you as an essay read to me. What's fast to you is an essay fast to me. So it's great to have references as starting points for the conversation so that we can kind of narrow it down. And there's no, there's no like, oh, I thought that's what you meant. There's no, you know, mishap in terms of thinking what somebody else thought was a certain way. And so, you know, I still pull references all the time. I think it's a great, too.

And I do in the commercial work, too. And I think it's important with like the colorists and even times with the gaffer and the key grip, you know. And so a lot of that hasn't really changed. I'm still doing all that polling references, looking at different equipment. And that's another thing what we touched on too is equipment's changing all the time too. So our approach is changing all the time. And, you know, and then a lot of us driven by the budget. You know, we've worked with directors with bigger budgets.

and then I've worked with smaller budgets with the same director. So it's like, how are we approaching this job? And they seem to be, to answer your question, kind of each and everyone, they're slightly individual and they demand a different approach. So I don't really have a template per se. Well, I'm more meant just when you're working with like the same director a bunch of times. Like what short hands do you end up developing that don't? I meant more like on the interpersonal level.

Like where are you finding that you can be like with my friends? who I've known from college, we're able to be very short with each other. We don't need to be polite. Sure, I think there's no, you know, and also you start to grow thick skin, you know, you just know somebody's temperament, you know that their reaction sometimes.

And, you know, even with me as a DP, like the director has a lot of stuff coming at them all the time from all kinds of different departments. I've kind of learned to just be a little patient and the answers will reveal themselves through other conversations. And then when they don't, then I usually try to respect their time

and have a list of things that, hey, let's just go over these two things. You can get back for any one to. Because I want everybody to have equal time with the director because it's just information sharing so important. And every department is so important that I'm happy to just like kind of just swallow my questions

or my ideas for a while and let them percolate and see if the answers come. And when they don't, then I'll go address them. But definitely you build thick, skin when you're working with the same people, especially as they become more successful and they have more demands on themselves. You understand that nothing's personal, you know, and I think that's part of maturing as an artist is that you are become less and less insecure because you've,

you know how to get yourself out of a hole or you know how to keep yourself from getting in a hole is kind of where I think the maturing part comes from, you know, and a lot of that's been great with emails and Google Docs is you can share all this information, you know. And so there's no holding your cards close to your chest. And information is super important and it becomes accessible to all of us. And it covers your ass. Like I put this all in email. I sent it to everybody.

And, you know, nobody really responded or I didn't get any flack. So I guess it's okay. And then I'll usually follow that email with an email like that. Everybody read that? Any problems? Okay, moving forward with this. You know, and there's a lot of decisions we made. texture tone camera you know workflow um labor equipment i mean there's a lot of things that have

to fit into the time and money space that we all have to agree upon yeah yeah shared it's so dumb but like a shared google sheet so valuable just links especially like what i'm i'm working with like uh the cocktail group i worked with that i told you about death and co they uh i'm I'm it's for an education platform. So it's like, I don't know, maybe like 400 videos that I've shot. You know, they're all relatively short. They're only a few minutes at time. It's like how to use a shaker.

Here's how to build a martini. Here's free. You know, sometimes along and so much sort of short. But there's just a shit ton of assets. And where's the folder of the ones that need to be checked? Where's the complete ones? Where are the metadata files that I need to pull from? And it just a little Google sheet with links.

it's only like, you know, eight cells or whatever, but we know where that Google sheet is, and that tells us where everything else is. No, that's been my maturation is, I didn't really have computers growing up. I don't have a computer college. And learning how to organize your digital files has been a little bit of a struggle for me,

but I'm getting better at it. It's just like, oh, what did I name that? What hard drive is that on? And like, oh, my gosh, all the hard drives look the same and none of them have a label. It'll just say hard drive one. Like, wait a one. So I'm really,

really working hard at getting better at digital organization. You know, it's not like you go to the to the Dewey Decimal system and you're looking at it up. It's like there's just a hard drive. Yeah. I've really, I'm genuinely pretty good at my own personal file management. Having to slot into other people's workflows has become a little. I'm like, this is how I do it.

And I've learned that doesn't work. I just got to figure out their system. Yeah. Is there? There what? There's really no standardization, is there? No. And there's things that are close.

But the one thing that always bites me in the ass is when I think I'm never like this is a one-off little thing. I'm never going to open this project file again, whatever. And I just call it like and hit enters just so it saves it on the desktop. And then it moves into some folder on the desktop to clean up my desktop. And now it's gone. I don't know what the fuck it is. I don't know where it was. it's mind numbing too when you're trying to find you like you're so mad at yourself and I do that all the time just in general I put things that are important and important places and then I don't remember where I put them and then I usually find them where they're supposed to be you know it's like where is that where is that oh it's in that zipper pocket so I didn't lose it you dummy you know but I should I think we we both need to get diagnosed for ADHD that's what I've learned to spend this conversation common denominator in our business

you know. All right. Well, I will let you go. Thank you so much for chat with me, man. It was awesome. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to meet you. You're awesome, brother.

Yep, you too. I'll see you soon. I'll see you soon. Okay. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McBillen. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated.

And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.