Frame & Reference Podcast - 257: "The Brink of War" Cinematographer Magdalena Górka, ASC PSC

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

This week I'm privileged to welcome the incredibly talented Magelena Górka on to the show to talk about her work on "The Brink of War". Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 257 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan and my guest, Magdalena Gorka, ASC, PSE, D.P.E of the brink of war. Enjoy. The new film, at this point, it's still in theaters when the episode comes out in a couple weeks, it probably still will be. But how did you get involved with that at first? Was that like a previous working relationship or did someone come and headhunt you? The brink of war?

You were asking on Star Trek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll jump to the end of that. No, they hunted me. So, you know, my agent, Pete, sent me a script and I was on the beach with my painter friend. And I normally, you know, give full attention to my friends. but for some reason, I just defunped and I saw the script title. At that time, it was Reykjavik, because the thing is happening in Reykjavik.

And I just saw the title and I just knew this is my next movie. And I was just so excited that I start reading on the beach and he's like, hello. I'm like, but this is so cool, man. So, you know, my agent called me right away. And it's like, I just sent you a script. You got to read it. Like, you have to decide right away. And I'm like, okay.

And I loved it. I read it like literally within an hour, like super fast. And it's just down my alley because I grew up in Eastern Europe and, you know, I lived through this. So it was very, very close to home. And then, you know, I got on a Zoom of the director who we never met before, but we immediately clicked like literally from the first minute. We just got along. We didn't talk about a movie. We talked about a history and, you know, and Cold War and everything. else and at the end he does would you like to make this movie i'm like hell yeah so that's how it started it does it does feel like every like it almost anytime your reel gets brought up or because i'm a dp as well anytime like real gets brought up um i figure i realized it's like i should mention this that's why it's a cinematography podcast um but like yeah real or or previous work whatever like that's more, at least at my level, you know, they're like, oh, he's, he could, he's capable, you know, and then the rest of it is kind of like, do I like hanging out with this person for longer than an hour, you know, because so many people are capable now.

It's like, are you able to be present is almost more important. Exactly. And just don't scroll during the prep, you know. Yeah. So, yeah. That's very important. Yeah. How much.

when you got it's kind of jumping ahead but like when you're in prep for this film were there any specific touchstones or like because you could have gone very like very retro with it it still has kind of a more modernish look uh but uh any like photography or other films that you were kind of leaning on or was it more just like your guys's um shared experience having been alive at that time. Well, of course we just, you know, we both are history buffs. So, you know, like we very, very accurate

about what happened. And Michael is very, very accurate about how he wanted to do it. As you know, the movie was shot in the original location of the house. So it was no build. He really wanted to channel all this ghosts from there because the place is counted, actually, it is, and the ghost lives in the room upstairs. We've been told which room is it, and we could not go there.

So it was off limits. But he just wanted to be in the same space and have the same paint and the same tables. So it was very, very important for him to be accurate like this. And then also, like, we had an access to Pete Sousa pictures, the original White House photographer. He came to Iceland. they put him in the movie as a little Easter egg whenever reporters are photographing and he shared those photos with me

and when I saw this first, you know, the proofprints, I just saw the color and this color was extremely inspiring and it really corresponded to what we talked before with Michael during the prep which he wanted a classic 70s movie inspiration so the conversation,

a French connection, you know, even the verdict. and stuff like this just for the camera movement and also like for restraint because right now everything is so moving and so exciting like people taking out you know as from the story with camera movements and he really wanted to us to be able to focus on the characters

and that was his main goal and then I just threw a little bit thing in there because I loved old Orvo photography You know, the negative that we used to use in Eastern Europe called O-R-W-O. And it's just, yeah, it's just negative that you guys had no idea about in the United States because it was never like intercepted, you know. Yeah. But it was the negative that was very cold and it's closer to Fuji than Kodak. And, you know, I dig out tons of photos, original photos.

and they in like this hues that are kind of faded, but depends on how they were cared for, you know, they go into like an orangey or greenish side. So I just showed this to Michael and he responded to that. And then, you know, I worked with the colorist based on this, you know, influences. And he did the lot within like half an hour. And we kept that color till the end.

and then just even it out, you know? Yeah, I mean, I do love how dense the image is. Like, you know, it's not, we didn't go old and then kind of desaturated. Because a French connection, you know, can be very great. Granted, you know, concrete. But with the setting you have and everything, the color just feels very umptuous. That was one of the first things I did when I was like, you really nailed the, well, I guess the colorist as well.

But you guys nailed the, that feeling that makes you want to lean in almost a little bit. Like, ooh, this is, you know, I feel like a lot of films, audiences tend to be, seem to want more contrast and depth and hard lighting and stuff, which I don't know why they know these terms, but they've, they talk about it a lot online. Yeah, they just, I found out that people responding to it. yet now our business, like between us, DPs and directors, a lot of us like to desaturate it, you know, and just make it more naturalistic, you know, like if you like capture someone running through the field, like that is the style, naturalistic style that's been around for a little bit. And, you know, I work with this very old school guys all my life and they always want to contrast, hard light. And it's really hard to light with hard light on digital. So like Michael wanted to

have it on a film. And of course, we couldn't, we didn't have a budget. So, you know, we had to go through a very extensive lens search to find something and then do the camera test to make sure that we just do not take attention away from the characters. That was the most important for me and for Michael. And then that we stayed true to the story. Because I just didn't want anybody to distract, be distracted with the picture. You know, like I was there. to serve and it was very important for me that it's not about the camera and a camera movement. It's about those two actors and their performance because they had to take us on a journey and just make us believe that those are Gorbachev and Reagan.

And I think that we achieved it because, you know, after the premiere, which was in New York last week, I talked to the actors and Jeff Daniels was blown away. He never seen the movie before. He waited until the premiere and he said that, you know, there was a lot of the movie. a magic capture that, you know, that he felt pulled into the movie. Just like you said that you wanted to lean in, he said the same thing. And then he sent me like a beautiful letter thanking me for, you know, making him look so good because it's a, it's also was very bold that our closeups were like this. Right. And those are guys that are in a full prosthetics and makeup. Like those are

guys that are playing someone that they are not, of course. And, you know, just how much makeup. was put on Jared, it's kind of amazing that we don't see anything on the close-up like this, which, you know, huge kudos to Ivana, who was our makeup artist, who's just fantastic.

And just everybody on this movie was top-notch because it was the time there was not much going on. And, you know, we had an ability to hire, like, the best people that were available. Yeah, the, the, uh, yeah, the makeup team absolutely crushed it. But how, you know, obviously you said you're shooting in the same location and your historical drama and stuff. But like, for instance, Jeff isn't doing like a Reagan accent.

Like where what, how much leeway were you giving yourself as a team to modernize this, so to speak, the story? Well, the most importantly, it was that, you know, we wanted to appeal to the wider audience, right? because we knew that the audience for this movie are, you know, 50 plus because they remember that events. But also, like, I think that it's a great subject right now for what's happening in the world at the moment. And actually younger people are very much interested. I spoke to someone this weekend that actually reached out to me from England and it's a younger director. And he says, like, I just put this together that you shudder brink of war. and I want to shoot something like this.

I'm like, what? Like, do you know what was it? And like, people are hungry for the real stories, you know? And just, and it's very like, it's just, it's oversaturated with amount of, like, impulses that are giving to us from the media, from the movies. And there is actually a need for people to just sit and watch. and listen and learn, you know? And so, you know, for us, the most important was to not to distract with the camera movement.

So, for example, we did the rehearsals and I was watching what the actors do. And I was operating myself. So I would wear a headset and people would actually look at me like my other camera operator and an assistant. And we didn't plan the moves. I would just see what the actors do. And then I would push in on the line or something like this. and I would wink to the assistant or show him the sign, and they would tell the other guy, they would tap him,

and he would do exactly, he would always look at me and do exactly what I'm doing, the same thing. You know, so we can have both actors with the tension at the same time. So, you know, it was very important to capture that tension because what people don't understand today, that how significant this meeting was. these were two superpowers that hated each other completely and there was literally on the brink of war

like you know it could have they could have attack each other you know at every single moment just like it was in the 60s with Cuba with Cuban crisis and it was exactly the same tension so that meeting was so significant and you know what these people were saying to each other was so significant And just when you think about it, that we could have a world with no nuclear weapons, you know. And it's just so it was just the most important for us to literally be like a fly on the wall and, you know, let these guys run. And I think that they did great job.

Yeah. With it largely being that one location where did that make your life easier or harder? Oh, hell, no. I mean, you know, it's just what makes your life easier is when you build, right? But then you have to have resources to light it. And I always explain it to the producers that build sounds great on the paper. But to do the right build, you need to have a Killal production designer. You need to have an amazing scenic team.

You need to have a gaffer's rigging team, you know, and light that it's going to cost you because, you know, throughout this movie or a show, those light have. to hang there and you just cannot remove it and return it no matter what you're shooting. So, you know, to actually do a location, a build, it's way more expensive, but way more comfortable for everybody else. So, you know, for actors, they are not cold or, you know, don't have to wait for the car to pass and stuff like this. And we all know what it means to shoot on, you know, on the build and move the walls and have a room and create, you know, just great cinematography with the long lenses.

But I found those constraints that I were in the Huffdy House inspiring to me because I really thought that if I would have given the location that is built, I would not make such a realistic cinematography because I had to figure out what kind of lenses to choose. to be able to pick those people that are sitting next to the wall. The wall was literally half a meter behind them. And how to frame it to make it interesting, elegant and beautiful. You know, because like otherwise I would put a camera somewhere, put the crane and make it, you know, just like I would focus on different things.

And here I had to build the world from constraints. And that's how we came up with the super close-ups. And that's how we came up with, you know, the table that is. changing when they get closer into actually making a deal. We build the same table and in three different sizes. And we were just changing it because we wanted to enhance the idea that they're getting closer. So, you know, it was very difficult to shoot in this house because first it's hunted. I just mentioned that.

But then the other thing is that, you know, it used to stand on the edge of the volcanic rock next to the ocean. And right now, there is the biggest highway in Iceland going next to the Havdi house. So when you think that Michael want to be so accurate and shoot in October exactly when a summit happens, I had six hours of light. So that means that I could shoot only Regan side in the six hours. And then everyone else, like against the clock, I had to shoot when it's already dark. So even shooting Reagan, because the light is so low in Iceland, I could see car lights, coming from behind the window. So just such little things that you don't think about until you go there and you sit there

for a few hours and you see what to watch. So that's what I always do. I actually sit on the location for hours with the scent dresser. Whenever they're dressing or painting, I just sit there. And I watch what happens. I see how the light goes. You know, I photograph this light. Then I give these photos to my gaffer and I said, I want exactly that.

because I always want to do exactly what this natural location gives me, you know? So whenever I have a realistic movie like this. So, you know, the same with other parts of the movie, which was KGB and CIA basement. It's shot also in this house and it's a basement that is literally ends on Jeff Daniels head because he's super tall. So like there was nowhere to light. And then from this basement you had the door that we adapted for Gorbache of Boat.

So we had to go through the basement to another room which was built a boat. And, you know, we just put the walls inside of the walls with circle windows. And so, like, there is nowhere to sit to light from the inside except practicals. And how to make it natural and beautiful, you know. So it was extremely tricky. And I had an amazing production designer Guni. You know, I love this guy so much. And the set dresser was my friend from film school.

that was kind of like I thought that this movie was like a got sent for me with the people that were involved. And also like when I saw my friend from a film school on a first day when I arrived to Iceland, I'm like, okay, I'm in the right place. And so, you know, I had a great team. When you have a great team, everything is possible. Yeah. You went to a pretty intense film school, didn't you? Yeah, I went to Wuch in Poland. And it's just, it's gnarly.

That school is gnarly. Like it's only for the brave Yeah, because it's what, they only take like a dozen people or something and then they just Yeah, we had Yeah, we had um Yeah, yes So like she was from Poland and from that

city which Martha Matuga oh she's fantastic And um you know we studied together Um in this school and they take only eight people on my year I had eight people Plus they take two foreigners And the studies

for us are free when you have a foolish passport and foreigners have to pay. So this is how they structured it. And then you just sit in a school literally like 16 hours a day because you have a whole day of, you know, like classes, lighting classes, whatever. And then every day at night there is a free cinema that is screening movies from the beginning of the cinema until the end. So, you know, on the first year, you have all the German expressionism and stuff like that. But, you know, everybody that's teaching in the school, at least when I was there,

they were all legends. So my main professor was, you know, Polanski D.P. Vykoz Sabozynski, who shot pirates and frantic. You know, you had a Kishlowski teaching in this school. Unfortunately, I haven't met him because he died literally the year before I came there. Like you had Vigold Haas, like all this huge names that come and give their knowledge. So when I was there, it was the first generation that was that actually started that school that was teaching us, you know? So that was very special. And, you know, the people wondering why Polish DPs are so intense and why we are like running

following home in a way, you know, I heard it so many times. It's because our knowledge is just like it's serious. Like we don't, we don't put the camera because it feels good. You know, we put the camera because what is the reason to put the camera? Like, would that character do that? You know, like, and there is a history that they're teaching us. And they just put in your head the responsibility of choices, you know? So, yeah, it's just, it's pretty intense.

Why do they, why does Poland specifically value filmmaking so highly? Because obviously, you know, in America, we should value. We practice. We helped invent it. We should care. we take a more like business laissez-faire approach to it but then you've got like you're the french and the poles name why why is it specifically what's it what's in the polish DNA that makes it so um valuable well first of all we have a slobac soul you know that means that you know we just our soul sings like that's

serious like our poetry like you know and we have our only liata which is not that but it's like panta there was during the time you know when when um the polo was under occupation for 123 years. But so we have a huge Slovak soul, you know, which is extremely romantic and very like, you know, the right thing to do. And we go and fight for what's right. So that's the one part.

The other part is because the Poland was under communism regime for so long. The art, poetry and movies and theater were the way to fight with the depression. So, you know, like when you look at the movies from the 80s, these are the movies that were winning gold palm, you know, in Cam because they were showing the world that is under, you know, behind the curtain and just, you know, there was a censored, like heavily censored, but sensory not always took or pick up every single new one that was there. So that's why it's just so important for us because it was just the way to speak up, you know? Right, right.

Yeah, when your voice is taken, you need to find other ways to express. Exactly. That's why poetry was just so potent, you know, and books and, you know, and just when you read these books from the 80s, I just, sometimes I'm just laughing like a baby, you know. We have this writer that emigrated to New York and his name is Gwavatsky. and he wrote amazing place. And there is a book that he describes like, you know, how was it to survive in the 80s in New York when you come from behind Iron Curtain? And literally you have a $5 in your pocket.

And just people just help you. And just there is something in Polish people that we just never give up. There is a resilience of some sort that is just unbreakable. And that's what it's in us. Like I just never give up. I always find a solution. I always find a way. I'm always wanted to talk and just move forward with something, you know?

Yeah. Do you find that on your film crew, the film crews that folks find that kind of inspiring? Like, oh, she's not giving up. I guess I'm tired, but she's still running. So I guess I'll, you know, leave by example type stuff. Yeah. I definitely like because of my passion, you know, they just, they just jump on board because, you know, the fish gets bad from the head. Like I always say this saying and just you just, you just set the example, you set the pace and everybody want to catch up.

Because if you're lazy, if you are not a proper leader, you know, people just think that that's okay. But if you said an example of very hard work, serious approach, then everybody is the same way because, you know, this is the key of a good leader. It's just however you send the pace and the DP is a person that set the pace on the set, as you know. The director has to take care of actors, producer and all the politics that are just beyond our pay grade. And you just make sure that everything is together and you, the person that glues everything, together and you can't allow this to fall apart. So I normally, you know, my, on the previous interview, somebody asked me like, what kind of rap gifts I got in my life. They were the best. And I just said, I don't really get a rap gets, but I get handwritten letters. And just I get a handwritten

letters from directors. I get a handwritten written letters from my crew. And they normally are so beautiful, like on the last movie I just did in Atlanta, one of my DITs, Mark, that I worked with for a while. And also, I'm extremely loyal. So if somebody is in my pace and prove themselves, I would always work with them again. And so I have my crew almost in every city. And it's just repeatable crew. If they're available, they would work for me. And Mark, for example, we did Doom Patrol together, you know, in 2018. And now I was. back in Atlanta and I was doing the show. So he gave me this amazing card, which was kind of like very funny because the day before I gave him a special honey that I brought from Savannah,

we like sweets. And he gave me a card and he said, you know, your energy and your inspiration just, you know, was deeply in us. And that's why that's what keep us going. And you are are a pollinator. And I never heard that word before. And I found it so beautiful. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, you're a pollinator. You pollinate your passion. And you inspire people to be better. And I was just like, but I also have a little bit tragic and funny story. When I was on Star Trek, it was such a long show that, and he also was during COVID. So that was like, you know, We couldn't be free and everything. So it was very difficult for, you know, physically and mentally.

And on the second to the last day, I was just so exhausted because we were shooting finale and it was intense. And it was like kind of, I think it was the best episode. So I gave my all that I just collapsed on the way to the set already on the stage. And they took me to the hospital. It turns out that I was just dehydrated. I was drinking like six coffees a day, you know. Oh, geez. So I just like, I just got terribly dehydrated.

So they just, you know, gave me a lot of IVs. And the next day I was fine. But when I was laying in the hospital and under this IVs, I refused to rest. I just had a phone and I would call my key grip and tell him what to do because key grip was my best friend there. And it was really funny because they were. telling me that the crew is making the bets if I'm going to show up on the last day or not. Right.

And so that older guys, you know, everybody over 50, 60, I even had a Dolly grip that was around 70, which is amazing. These people are just so experienced. They were saying, of course she's going to be here. Like, of course she's going to be here. But all the youngsters, you know, around 20 and 30 is like, no, she's not going to come. Like, she's not to care of herself. And they like, no, she's going to be here.

And of course, I was there. The 20-year-olds invented self-care. I don't know if we had that back in the day. Yeah, it was just very funny because, like, I showed up and I was just barely standing. I'm like, let's do it, guys. And everybody's like, yay. You should have asked them for, like, a cane or something, do a Willy Wonka. You know, like, walk on.

Yeah, I just know. But, like, you know, I don't want to make a theater or pay, like, just too much attention to myself. But, like, it's just like that. Like, you just said things with example. that you work really hard, do the best you can. But also sometimes you got to say, you know, set the boundary. Enough is enough, you know. So that's a very hard call because I always say we in the business of smile,

but this is a hard business. And sometimes you got to say, you know, this is not right. Yeah. Well, yeah. First of all, we should get you like a liquid IV sponsorship or something. Make sure that doesn't happen again. Well, I stopped drinking coffee. So, you know, after that I could not look at coffee anymore.

So that was that. You know what I switched to was the this company makes like caffeine pills. They're not like incredible. It's not like a ton of caffeine. It's like roughly a coffee amount. But it also has thalineine in it. So you're not like super jittery. But then you just get one of those.

And then I've switched to like, you know, soda water and stuff. And that tends to feel. You know, you don't feel it, but you're awake. And that's the move I do now. Now I have a, like every time, you know, I stand on the DIT tent, I just tell him, because normally they're my friends. It's not like I'm making people occupied with my cast. But, you know, like those are the people that I work with for a long time. I'm like, please check every hour if I drink that water.

And if we have a utility on the set, if there is enough budget to have that, you know, they just come and just refill. And if, when if it's not like ready to refill, they just stand there until I drink. I, you know, I mostly shoot documentaries right now. I'd love to start doing more narrative, but I got the, you know the like Cantera vests that people have, like the little paddock.

So I found one that someone made that similar to that, but it's got a camelback on the back. Oh, yeah. And so I got that thing now. And you can like kind of rest the camera on top of that, like a little bit. So that's nice. And I just got the little straw.

I'm just, you know. Well, I cannot tell you how many people would want it to put me on a camel bag. Like seriously, on every shoulder. It's like, we're going to like, you know, they would grab me. I move very fast as well. So they sometimes just, you know, they have to grab me. Just like, you know, I'm just like this.

You know, it brings up a good point that like, obviously no one should work themselves to exhaustion or dehydration. But do you kind of think when you're, as you're setting these examples for good work habits, Do you have to kind of think to yourself like the the crew isn't me? You know, do you hold them to a different standard than yourself? In what way? So, for instance, like a bad example of this would be like a director DP, whoever, being like I, you know, I collapsed on set. You should work that hard. Oh, hell, no, no, no.

So how do you? The other way. Right. How do you articulate that? Like, you see what happens to me? Don't you ever do that? You know, like that was not smart. Like, you know, that was just not smart. And also, like, you know, on the last movie, we had a limited budget and we worked for

long hours because it was also a passion project and we really, really, really wanted to do the best job. Like every other day, I would go and take, you know, 20. four eggs and I would cook them and we had a cooler between me, Gaffer, key group and the director because he always hang out with us. He's like, the DIT tent is a cool tent. So he wanted to hang out with us and I would just hardball them so everybody has protein, you know? So like, and you know, when people saw that we're doing this, then assistants start coming to our cooler, you know, So I had to start cooking more and I would make power balls.

I would make power balls with cocoa and coconut and nuts. So like it's all big guys, you know. So like I just want to make sure that we have a treat and we share the tea hour just to have a little bit of grounding after lunch. You know, like everybody was tea drinkers. So we got to the point that even one of our, you know, second 80s that was standing. next to the 10 communicating like our AD. He eventually, as a rap gift, he got me a tea from England because I love that tea from England and I would share it with everybody because the actor that was in the movie I knew

for a while. He was in the movie with me 10 years ago. He went for casting to England. He brought me that tea and I told everybody it's the best tea. So I would share it with everyone and everybody loved it. So we had like this moment when we would talk after lunch and just have like five minutes of drinking tea. And this AD brought, you know, a gift because he's like, you shared it with everybody. So you don't have any left.

And I'm like, you have to do it, man. But you see, it's just something like this, that when you're generous and when you just treat everyone like the same on the same level, people always return, you know, the kindness. and I never want my crew to just, like, hurt themselves or work themselves to the ground. I'm not that person. I actually, I check with them all the time and I say, like, you know, you should go home or, like, do, are you okay to drive? Like, all this stuff, you know? What I did on Star Trek was crazy because it was a COVID and I just, I was drinking too much coffee. It wasn't me.

Yeah. So when you're saying that you're like leading by example by working hard, it's more, would you say It's more about like the precision in what you're doing and less about the raw output. Yeah, precision and profession, be very professional. Like I don't, I don't give up even on an insert. And it's, there are jokes about it, you know, that like, oh, it's an instant. I'm like, yes, but, you know, like, it should have a light from here. And so like when people see that I have such a high standard, they say, you know,

oh, she's demanding, but in a good way, like it just all for the best of the movie. Like somebody hired me and it's huge privilege to work, you know, in the movies and being chosen when there is no work around these days and so many people want to do it and there is so much competition. So when somebody's choosing you to put their vision on a screen, you should, I think, be grateful and do the best you can and like don't whine, just buckle up and just do your job. and but not in the like harsh way in the way of leading by example by just be respectful and kind and just very professional and that's what I do. I'm very straightforward. I never lie. I just always going to tell you what's up and what I think, but at least people don't have to wonder with me. What is she thinking? Everybody knows what I'm thinking, you know. Yeah. How do you, actually that brings up two questions.

One, any tips on being forward without being, uh, making people upset with you? I, I sometimes, you know, they'll ask me a question and I just go, that they're like,

why is he mad? I'm not mad. I just said, you asked me a question. And then also, um, uh, also I forgot the second one.

So that, we'll go with that one. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm Eastern European. So I'm the wrong person to ask, to be honest.

But I had to learn, um, how to exist in the American movie world, which is quite different. Right. In Europe, we say exactly that. And just we have no time to explain on set, you know. But I see that people are way more sensitive here than in Europe.

In Europe, it's normal that we say, do this, do that, you know. And just, but here I learn it from one of my directors, the saying that just softens the blow whenever you have to give. very direct, you know, order. And it's just say, is there a world where we could do that? Okay. I've actually caught myself saying that. So shit.

Yeah. You know, so like another one is just, you know, how do you feel? So every single time you ask for people to choose, even though you put something harder there, it's easier for them to swallow. Yeah. Yeah, the one I've always told people is that, so I'm a magician, hence the card. And there's this concept in magic called the magician's choice, which is basically like,

if I were to do this and say, all right, top or bottom, we pick one, you say top, I go, okay, there you go, there's your card. Oh, I like that car you pulled for me. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So then the other one is if I were to do, you know, all right, top or bottom, you say bottom. I go, okay, you know, I always want you to pick this. So that's another thing that I've kind of in the back of my head when asking people for stuff.

Yeah. I'll frame up the thing where it feels like they chose it. But I've made it so that they choose what I want. Yeah. You know, like I'm for example very fast. And I really think fast. I have a huge experience. So like.

The sniper. Yeah. When I get to the set, you know. know, like I just, or not even a set when we're building. I know the answers before everybody else are going to walk through it, not because of ego or not because it's just an experience. I've seen it many times, so I know what the question is going to be asked, and I know what I have to say because I held build sets for a very long time.

And so my director, that is my very, one of my directors that is my very, very, very good friend. And once told me like, you know, sometimes you just have to let people figure out this by themselves, even though it's going to take a longer time. Because then, you know, they have to get there. And sometimes for DPs, I would say that this is the best advice is just to step back and just let people figure out this by themselves and then intercept when they cannot find a way. you know, like when they come to the idea, but they don't know how to make it happen. So we come in to placid, you know, but we have to tell, we have to let people to arrive there because otherwise when you come in and you say like, you should do this, you should do that. Nobody going to respond it because they're going to think that you're taking over, you know,

and you got to remember that you are a person that is helping, you know, we're creating the whole picture. but we are also there to realize the vision of the director or a producer of whoever is in charge depends on if this is TV or movies, you know, there are different levels of being in charge in those two medias, you know? So, like, I think that just a step back sometimes and take a breath and wait for people until they ask, it's a very valuable advice. Yeah. And actually, as you were saying that, I remember the other thing I was going to say, which was when you're talking about taking care and, you know,

even an insert and then also the transition from Eastern Europe to American was about running second unit on Fablements. You know, you're with Spielberg and Janusz and stuff and you have a

prior relationship with Yonush, right? Yeah. What how was that experience from an education perspective? Because you know, you you spend your whole, at least for me, you know, you spend your whole life thinking like, well, Spielberg just does it the best. And now you have to, you know, even though that's not

necessarily true, it's just what you grow up with. It is. Well, it is. But I, you know, I want to give everyone else a little bit of leeway. But, you know, now in second unit, you're set there to sort of replicate what, quote unquote, the best is doing. But you still have to rely on your own sense of, maybe not taste, but what is good and correct? Like how did you navigate that sort of experience? Because I imagine it was amazing, but also a little, maybe stressful. Pressful. Yeah. Well, you know, it's, yeah, it's terrifying for sure. It's just, you know, you just watch. So at the beginning, you know, when Yanos invited me, he said, come and watch. So I came and watch. And I watched for two days and I was super nervous but you know, Stephen is a really warm guy and he's very welcoming.

So they made me very welcome and just I was scared a little less because he would start saying some, you know, stories from Poland. So that was nice. But the thing about this duo is that they are the best. And so when you watch Spielberg work, you know why he is where he is because he just knows almost everything. Like this is the person that knows every single set up the best. He knows every single piece of equipment. He knows how to move on set with all this equipment. Like when he asks for a Frazier, he knows exactly how to use it where it is. And so he does set up all the shots. And that is kind of amazing. And he just draw a picture and shows you how to do it. And then, you know, you just, You just watch Janush and you're trying to replicate this, the style.

And you just, I ask him a lot of questions, but he's extremely generous. He's like, he would always say like, you know, just do it. You're going to do it better than me. And I'm like, no, never. Like, just why would you say that? You know, but he's really not, he's someone that it's extremely confident and just doesn't need any praise and just doesn't take, you know, the credit for no reason. And he just knows that he's the best.

And, you know, it's a very different style from the way I would light before because it's quite contrasty. It's a lot of light, but very interestingly created because I always thought that it's a harder light. And when I was working with him, I saw that he actually has tools that he built himself in a very simple way. He's, you know, his team building him like special boxes with lights and bulbs and that this is. the light in many different ways that I wouldn't think of. And it's extremely simple. So you just take those tools and then you follow their general idea of how he creates the world, you know?

And it's just also very nerve-wracking because like you just want to do the best and make sure that there is no any difference between what they're doing and you're doing, right? Yeah. So when you say it's not hard light, are they just like small soft sources? No. you're talking about these like handmade things? Oh, really? Yeah, like mostly the sources are big and quite diffused.

But it's a lot of them. So that creates this soft, strong light. You know, so it's like a lot of light that it's bounced from the like like a tabletops in a studio. And then the rest is just, you know, the units that the crew is building for him. And it's like a lot of bulbs in the boxes that are being diffused because the bulb itself, like incandescent bulb, gives you a completely different feeling of the light. It spreads different than LED, right? Yeah. So because we have mostly LED, like for portrait, when you put the diffused bulb, it looks gorgeous and it looks vintage.

So for example, I learned from that. But, you know, going back to Spielberg, he is, you know, he just sits there and thinks. thinks about a shot and it's just, it's the most perfect shot every single time. Like the guy is a genius, like total genius, you know, to watch him work and how he works. He was one of the biggest privilege of my life, which I'm extremely grateful for. Yeah. I mean, that, yeah, that was kind of what I was trying to dance. Because you don't want to poo poo anyone else's work, but it's like Spielberg kind of wrote

modern cinematic language just by virtue of what he did and out and all that. I mean, did you see the exhibition that was in Lackma recently about Jaws? Yeah, yeah, yeah, me and my friend, Joie Fameli went, yeah. Yeah, so like when you see how they did it, you just like, you just kind of see that it's a, it's a strike of genius and like from the very beginning. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. Was that the one at Lackmar or the one at the Academy Museum? Academy Museum, sorry.

Okay, okay. I was like, wait, was there a second one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's next to Lachma. So like, they're in the same location. Yeah, so it's just, you know, it was just, it was watching that, it was fantastic and just finding out that because the model of the shark was, you know, built for the sweet water and they put it in a salty water and it wasn't working for at the beginning. And this is why we don't see sharks so often, but that created the suspense and they made something genius and amazing out of an obstacle. You know, that is just what real filmmaking is that like turning an obstacle into advantage. Yeah.

You know, it's not specifically that, but over the years I've found that almost all filmmaking is better with restriction of information. You know, not always, but like for instance, actors saying less and letting the audience, you know, fill in the blanks, more content. You know, darker areas instead, you know, more contrast, whatever it may be. The restriction of info. Or like, I think this is also why animation works a lot of times because it's not real, right? So you're restricting information in that way. Or, I don't know, even diffusion filters sometimes, you know, it's not as high detail. I don't know.

It's like a theory I have. But I was going to ask about, it was obviously that. was a few years ago with the Fableman's, but do with Brink of War, similar kind of vintage sort of where did you bring any of those techniques from that film to Brinkabor? Was this more like the way that you're thinking nowadays? Because your body of work is so vast that I could not say that you have a style, you know? Aw, I would say that I have a style. Well, besides being good.

I know what you mean. I know. Thank you. know what you mean. I mean, like, that's part of my career building, actually, is that I'm trying to choose, I was saying no too much recently. And because I just really want to make movies that I connect with and work with people that are, I connect with because, you know, then you create better work. And my last three movies I did with the directors that I would just go into the fire for them. You know, animal friends, Ray Kjavik and the last one, Green Bank, that it's, you know,

it's just in an editing room right now. Those are my friends and, you know, two of them became my friends during the production. One, the last one, Josh, is my very long-time friend. And so it's, it's a completely different level when you work with someone that you're really connecting with, you know, because it's about a communication. It's about what you're finding out when you have. And, you hanging out talking about a movie that it's not forced because you have to spend literally 20 hours of a day with this person. So it's quite important to make sure that you do the choices. And when I was choosing stuff, you know, I wanted to make everything. My biggest dream is to shoot James Bond and, you know, like huge bloodbusters like that because like I just love

action and, you know, burn ultimatum, burn supremacy. Like, Those are my favorite movies and Lawrence of Arabia and 310 to Yuma. You know, so like I just, my huge dream is to shoot James Bond and like a blockbuster Western. Like I would kill for it. I wouldn't. But just, you know, it's just something that I don't have in my resume yet, but I wanted to choose all this thing because obviously I don't want to bring the woman in car. But like, it's just a reality that it's so much harder for us than other, you know, know, man, to be trusted that you can do a huge action scene, for example, or you can handle

something psychologically, you know? So like, you have to prove your skill in experience and in actually hard proof that you can do it. So that's why I did, you know, everywhere from graphic novel to action, to history, to, you know, even documentary, you know, found footage, like, I try to do everything so I can show people that are hiring me that I am versatile, you know, that I'm not in just one, you know, thing. But when you ask me about, hold on, I went too far a little bit. No, that's, remember at the beginning? I said you go for rants and then everyone always says I won't. Then they do.

Yeah, I did. It was about taking the lighting techniques. Yes. So I actually learned from him how to use the bigger sources softer. And it's very important because I would light lower in the lower key before. And I was called the Queen of Darkness. And that was my style. This is how I did into the night and, you know, and other shows like that.

but he showed me that there has to be always a light, like a bright spot. And, you know, when I got this script, I went to Janusz and I asked his opinion and he read the book about the Reykjavik. He even found the book in his house. And he just spent hours telling me how I should do this movie. And we had a very long conversation. And he's like, you're the right person for it. I hope they're going to choose you.

Otherwise, you know, they don't do the good job. So, you know, I was lucky enough to get this. But he was my main source of getting inspiration, how to shoot this movie. And, you know, what I learned on Fabelman's, I applied to those close-ups in the brink of war. Because, you know, before I would make it way darker. And, like, you know, he taught me to bring up the light. Yeah. Yeah.

That's something I'm playing with too because I found obviously I'm, well, I should say obviously, but a lot of the stuff I'm shooting, you know, they're the mid upper tier cameras, right? And so sometimes in those lower areas, it can get kind of noisy and shitty. And so I'm trying to do my best now to like punch more light, more ND, you know, be able to use those lower ISO values that are a little cleaner, but still get the sharper contrast thing going on. versus like, oh, we'll just set the ISO for the room and then set whatever LED for 1% double break. Well, what people get wrong very often is that you light the shadows as well. Because when you light the shadows, then you can have a room in the shadows and you can control it later.

You know, and you can control the darkness. So it's not like you make the shadows bright, but you give the information to the shadow. and then, you know, your blacks are richer. So you mean not necessarily a fill light, but putting light just into the shadows. A little bit light into the shadows. Like I learned to light the shadows before I would just put the key light in the fill and just let it fall.

And then now I light the shadows and I had another level over there and then I bring it down or I put the window later. If I wanted to bring completely everything down, I would just bring it down. but the blacks I learned to come out richer this way, you know. And if I want to have this slice of light over there, then I just open it up the way I put it and I have another depth. So this is how like I learned to create even more depth, you know.

Interesting. And is that just coming from like camera side? Like you're not like or it doesn't really matter where you're placing it. It depends on where, you know, where I have the shadow. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I didn't know if maybe there was a prescriptive.

No, normally I light from the side. I very rarely liked. Like the, also I learned to add the fill almost everywhere. Before I would keying more and fill was optional. And then after shooting for TV mainly, I learned to add fill everywhere because that just creates the darker side much better. and it gives me more information for the post because you have to do the color correction really fast.

So you can't risk it to have, you know, under-exposed tones because the grain comes out and it's just muddy. And the picture that I do not like is muddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this is something I always think about too is like when back when I learned on 16, you know, right before digital took over.

so I didn't get a ton of film time. But basically the cinematography professor was like, all right, you get three stops above key, three stops under, everything else, you'll never see it. I was like, okay. And I still try to somewhat think of it that way, because now obviously you can get your false color, you got your spot meter.

So I'm doing the Ansel Adams thing, but I find that I'm not very quick with it. Does it just become natural? At some point, you know you can see what an extra stop is. Yeah. Half of stuff. Yeah, it's just, yeah, I never, the false color is being used by my DIT. And whenever I shoot nights, I just, I give him a task.

Just tell me when I go under 20%. And when I go under 20, it means that I have to light more because that is unacceptable. But I keep around 50. Like, so my picture is, and you just see it, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. I've learned something today.

I would love to keep chatting with you, but I've kept you for an hour and I know you're a busy person. So I can get 15 minutes more if you want. Oh, all right. Well, you know, actually there was a question. I was going to get two questions, I guess. One was just a silly one. So we'll leave that to the end. But when you were talking about having a resume and wanting to be to show that you were versatile,

how do you? because I've been given the opposite advice, which is like, oh, if you're real has everything in it, no one knows what to hire you for. They're like, oh, you don't specialize and whatever. So you don't find that to be the case. Well, everybody has a different goal, right? Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

If somebody wants to be just a car DP, go for it, you know, but I never wanted to be just pigeonholed and just have, you know, just one thing on my real. I do enjoy the most shooting car commercials. So I tend to choose those. But then, you know, like my director would have a job in Chile and he needs this kind of thing on the reel because even though people know who I am,

this person from the agency have no idea. And they have to show the real. And I don't have it on the reel. And I won't get a job. So this is how it is. No matter how established you are, how experience you are, people still need to see that you can do this particular thing.

because nobody just trust that you can do it. Like for them, it's still magic, you know, and just the people who don't understand that if you can do this, you can much easier do this. But they just don't understand. They need to see exactly the same thing. So I even with my agents have, you know, like show, not shows, but commercials in a vault

that are just not on the real and you never show them. But if somebody wants to see that particular thing, you have it, you know. And I just think that versatility is just more exciting, you know, because otherwise it gets boring to me if I shoot one, the same thing all the time, you don't learn, you don't push yourself, you don't, you know, I think that the growth is the same like in relationships. Whenever you, you know, acquire obstacle, that means that there is something that you have

to work on, you know, and people give up so easily with everything. So the same with cinematography. I think that this makes you grow, this makes you come up with solutions. And it actually make your brain bend and you learn. Otherwise, you don't go anywhere. Yeah, because I'm the same as you in that. I also would love to shoot a bunch of action films and stuff. And that's, you know, what I grew up enjoying teenage boy.

But now having done a bunch of documentaries, like I said, like I have found like a new like I love that now like especially because I'm working with my friends from like college and stuff but these are actually getting distribution. They're, you know, it's kind of everything we ever asked for except not in the exact same genre. But it's like as you're saying like it opened my mind up to something else that I didn't think I would enjoy what I do. You know? Yeah. But I guess silly question that I'll let you go. you know, because you've shot Star Trek and Doom Patrol and all these other things.

Do you watch, you know, like Marvel stuff and go like, I wouldn't do that? Like, do you find, do you, or do you watch it and you're like, you can see where the, where the, because it's such a tight-lipped, I guess genre. I don't know what you want to call all the superhero stuff, but do you, do you see like the cracks and the information there? Like, do you see the code in the matrix with these sci-fi stuff? This is how we watch the movies. Like we don't watch it for the story. We just like we see where I like coming from.

How do they do it? Like we watch it for information, you know? We watch it for learning. So yeah, I never say I wouldn't do it. Somebody made a choice like this. I would make a different one. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Can you think of something you've learned from one of those films recently? I'm trying to think like what I watched recent. Oh my God, yes, Hail Mary. Oh, sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so it's not a Marvel, but like, you know, it's a big budget movie. And I just like, I went to watch this as an inspiration with my director during the movie. And we just were blown away. Well, I'm always blown away by Greg.

Like, it's hard not to be. I'm sure he hears it all the time. but it's just a visceral connection to the character. The guy is on the screen for two hours and he holds you attention. You're not bored. You're not like, oh, I'm going to fall asleep. You just really want to watch it until the end.

And the way he was filmed, like with this very naturalistic yet, very colorful way of showing the character and just the camera work, I learned something new because it wasn't shot like I would think he would shot. It was more in a documentary way and just all the choices. I think the whole team, the directing the cinematography and also costumes. Yeah, production design. And production design, obviously, but like even costumes, whatever he was wearing, like the sweaters and everything, like all the choices made it look so natural. Like it's not in the space. Like it's not like he is, you know, astronaut that it's unattainable and we cannot like, you know, feel like him.

what they achieved was that we felt like him. And it's like this is the biggest thing that you can do in the movies to get you closer. Get the closer viewer to the character, right? Yeah. And you consulted with Greg on Star Trek, didn't she? Like asking about the virtual sets and stuff? Yeah, Greg is very generous as well. And not only on the Star Trek, he would like sometimes when he's in photocam and doing his stuff,

he is generous to invite me to my, you know, producer at photocam Jose Parra who's like, I work since paranormal activity. So that is right now 17 years. I work with

Jose and Jose is on my movie right now that is being posted. I actually was in Photogram yesterday watching a screening of my new movie being cut for the first time. So, you know, like when I say I'm loyal, I'm serious about it. So, you know, like Greg, it's sometimes

generous to show me like, you know, the techniques that he's using, like, for example, you know, shooting digital and then putting everything on film and printing from film, you know, and different type of positive, like either, you know, 35 or 16. And I learned a lot. And he was so kind to me because when I was shooting Star Trek, like I said, he was during the pandemic at the very beginning. And it was just, it was miserable time because we couldn't hang out with people, we couldn't connect with anybody. And I was shooting into the night in Belgium, which had a police hour. And we couldn't get out, you know, from 9 p.m. at night.

And on the weekends, I would just get on the phone with Greg and he was shooting Batman in London. And he would give me two hours of his time, explain, you know, by spot, how to work with the volume. Because nobody had any knowledge of the Vial volume on that. time except him. And, you know, there was only Mandalium, Mandalorium. So there was no press. There was no interviews yet how it's being done. So I had to call to the source and Hosea Parra made it possible because he connected me to Greg. And so, you know, I would be forever grateful to this guy and what a wonderful man. And just, you know, he told me everything and something that blew my mind at that time was building the asset, actually.

Everybody knows this today, but, you know, to build the asset for the wall, which is sci-fi asset that it's created out of nothing, right? That he says, you know, it took up that time. Now we have an AI, but at the time it took six weeks to create from ignition of the idea to the first look and to have a finished asset was three months. So we had to build them way ahead of time. And it's just so much work. And it just blew my mind.

It's like, what? And so, you know, when we were doing Star Trek, it was like our main focus to create this assets. Yeah. Well, and also Star Trek didn't, like, there were parts of Mandalorian where they're like, oh, yeah, we're lighting with the volume. And I'd be like, I can tell.

You know, it wasn't like the sun wasn't punchy enough. Right. You know, which obviously they figured out as time went on. But I didn't, I don't remember that with Star Trek. I remember, I think that's why I tried to DM you. I was like, this looks. phenomenal. Like how did you pull that stuff? Because it was because I knew you guys were doing volume stuff, but it had a little more. Right. But I guess you, you know, learn from, not the mistakes,

but you learn from the experience of Mando essentially and then plus it up a bit. Well, he told me that they live with the volume, but you know, we wanted to have a little bit more contrast in it. Because like when I went there, I would just go to the volume every day and just stare and just ask every single question I'm the most annoying, you know, and it just goes to that because I just, I need to know everything before I go in. And so I learned very fast. We had a really good team there, Pixamondo. So they were very knowledgeable. And I started asking questions like, I was lucky, you know, because my key group built that volume. So he built this wall, you know, piece by piece. And oh my God, I miss this guy so much. And I started asking him questions, Mitch,

Mitch, oh, Mitch was the man. Mitch gave me the best advice I ever heard. When things got hard, he would come behind me and he would say, like, don't show the crack. Because if they see the crack, the water keeps coming. I think that it's amazing. But because he built that volume, you know, he told me that we can take the sections out. You know, now it's obvious. But back in the day, we didn't know that we can take the sections out.

And this is where we would put 20Ks, you know, and we would just have the punch. And also like when I realize how much set we're building into the volume, because Mandalorian didn't have such elaborate sets like we did, we did elaborate LED sets. And they were built by, you know, entering the virtual, you know, the Unreal engine with a production designer and the operator. and I would wear the glasses and I would walk through it and I would say I need this here, this here. So the production design would make notes and then he would create the grey mass and then in this grey mass we would put the lights

and I would make sure that it's like tons of LED lights in actually built set. So you can kind of mitigate the difference between the lit wall and a set. So there is no such a contrast. And that was the key thing. Like whenever we're building sets, I would always put the lamp on the table or build a LED ribbon into the booth or something like this.

So these sets connect because what I understood that the hardest thing with the volume is the connection on any level that people see that it's not real. So that was very important for me. And we used so much LED ribbon that we actually run out of LED ribbon in all North America. So, you know. Sick. Wonderful. Yeah. It was sick, yeah.

Cool. Well, I've stolen your last 15 minutes. So now I'll let you go. But when the new film comes out, I'd love to have you back on. And we can talk more and talk about that. January 27, Animal Friends, waiting for you. It's hilarious. Okay, cool.

Well, then I will talk to you in a few months. Cool. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye. Bye, bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me,

Kenny Macbillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.