Frame & Reference Podcast - 258: "Little House on the Prairie" Cinematographer C. Kim Miles, ASC, CSC, MYSC

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Another return guest! This time it's C. Kim Miles here to talk about his work on the new "Little House on the Prairie" series on Netflix!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 258 of Frame and Reference. You're about to join a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, C-Kim Miles, A-S-E-C-S-C-S-E, and Y-S-C-E, D-Pee of Little House on the Prairie. Enjoy. Do you feel like your career is like you've always done like narrative and then they gave you a doc? Or has doc affected your career in any capacity? Yeah, I've never really been a doc guy. I've done a kind of a smattering of bits. and bobs. I don't think I've ever done a complete

all-in-one documentary ever. Narrative is always, I started in commercials. So there was that. But yeah, narrative is sort of what I do most of the time. And then I usually get involved in docs from a narrative perspective, you know, like doing, we did this

thing back in 2008 called Darwin's Brave New World with Screen Australia and the CBC. and they had spent, the documentary guys had spent a bunch of time interviewing folks and doing that sort of things. And I just went and did the reenactments, like the historical reenactments and stuff like that. And very similar to what we did on the Michael J. Fox movie as well, you know, just doing the reenactment type stuff. Yeah, it's like the reverse of what I did. Yeah. Which is weird because I would consider that main unit.

Like your stuff would be the main unit. stuff and all the reenactment and texture stuff feels like that's the second unit, you know, running around. Well, so that was the thing is they went to all these places. It is a very like gorgeous doc, but it's like not only are they doing the interviews, but they're going to all, like,

again, it was like coral reef restoration. Okay, well, they're going to go to the reef and film, you know, they had a water unit and stuff. Like, it was a whole whole endeavor. That's great. That's great. But yeah, the, what was it going to?

Oh, and you're just, anyway, again, fried, 13 hours. And no lunch break, by the way. And they brought out the piece. I was like, Qatar Center. Not the pizza. Oh, you know, I was like, reacquainting myself with your history, you know, just because I go. Oh, yeah.

I probably should have like listened to our last episodes. I don't rehash anything. but I did you moved to Canada in like 98 something like that 90 1990 I think it was 99 or 90 I think it was okay you have to write numbers just in the wrong order yeah I was wondering because you know right now there's a lot of conversation about oh is the you know I live in L.A is is the film industry dying here I don't necessarily think so I think you know it just swings aroundabouts but I was wondering from your perspective yeah how you you saw both just around you and as your career went, like how things have shaped out in Canada shook out. Because it feels like we sent a lot of stuff there and a lot of people got new opportunities there and around the world,

but specifically your experience with Canada. Yeah, I think that the Canadian advantage, I mean, bottom line for studios, it's always the dollar, right? I mean, that's where they can maximize leverage and get the best bank for the bus. And I think Canada, most provinces up here saw that and thought, hey, there's an advantage to be had here by incentivizing tax credits and providing that sort of support to productions that want to shoot here.

And then at the same time, that fortifies our labor force and brings outside experience into our community. And then I think it's just geographical proximity, really. that is the Trump card for Canada, so to speak, that, you know, actors can be doing a Warner Brothers show here in Vancouver during the week and then jump on the red eye and be home in a couple hours, you know. So I think that's been a big part of the success

of Canadian runaway production, I guess, you know. And then I don't know too much about, you know, the UK. I think there's a lot of incentive go to the UK now. I'm not super familiar with it. Just because there's a perception that not having to deal with a union is a good thing. And, you know, for better or worse. So I guess we're just always forever chasing the bottom line.

And that's what drives all those decisions, right? Yeah, I mean the big. But I've, yeah. No, go. I think we have like a two-second delay. so I'll do my best to not go, ooh. But while I was going to say, I've always thought like, oh, healthcare too. You know, healthcare, UK, Canada, you don't have to pay for it.

That's got to be like a decent size line item. It's got to be, you know, 4% or 6% or whatever it is. You know, I'm trying to think what the 600 contract is. But it's, yeah, it's a considerable expense, you know. Things like meal penalties and turnarounds and stuff. Not that I'm not saying that people should be deprived of. of favorable working conditions, but when there's a punitive cost

to running an hour into lunch, that disincentivizes efficiency in production. I think, you know, we have meal penalty rules up here with the union that are somewhat less severe than they are in the U.S. financially. And we used, you know, AEDs and stuff, use meal penalty as a tool to leverage, you know, if we're doing a split day, let's say, for example, and we know our

morning's going to be in the daylight and then we're waiting for, you know, to shoot an eighth of a page at night, a lot of times we'll do a nine-hour morning and pay everyone three hours a meal penalty just so that we're not having lunch and then coming back and it's still daylight and we're all sitting around doing nothing. You know, we can at least, you know, fill the morning. Right. So there's advantages to it tactically like that that are taken away when there's when there's big punitive costs. But that being said, people need to eat and, you know, people need to be looked after. So it's a two-way street, I guess.

Yeah. All the meal and food talk made me go like, oh, yeah, you shot yellow jackets, too, huh? Oh, yeah. Was that before Michael Jack? Michael J. Fox? 20, I think. Yes, because I left that to go to Winterpeg to do champions. And that's where I met Drew Locke that produced Michael Jackson.

J. Fox, Michael J. I know. Bro, that film hit like a billion dollars so fast. I was like, all right, okay. Well, I thought we were cautious about that man, but no, the music, the music still holds. Dude, I was, I was, you know, watching your episodes of Little House on the Prairie. You've done a phenomenal job at both capturing the idea of a vintage production without leaning into tropes of it.

Like it feels very sort of Western-y without being a pastiche. And I thought it has a very, which is crazy to say it has a unique look because Western is so like defined in everyone's mind. Like you go outside and there's a town built. Like even Westworld, you're like, yeah, that's a Western. But it really, you really did achieve something quite nice

with what you shot. And Ari for that matter, Ari, for that matter. Like I love that woman. And she, I didn't know that there was two of you. You got power of the dog in your back pocket. Those conversations are probably nice. Yeah, 100%. And Nate Goodman also that did episodes, oh gosh, four, five, and six, I think also.

So there were three of us in the mix, which was super great because, you know, you end up doing a lot of shows. If you're doing episodic stuff, you end up alternating with another DP a lot of the times. and that can go one or two ways. It can either lead to a really great collaboration or it can be kind of an us versus them situation. Thankfully, the, lately it's been more collaborative than in the... Now I say that, and I don't say that to sound like,

you know, we used to butt heads on previous shows. That's not the case at all, but there's definitely a lot more consultation between ourselves now on shows nowadays. And Little House was no. exception. You know, we were, we were all kind of softly in prep right when Ari started the show back in, gosh, that must have been February of, you know, of that year of 2025. And, and we all had this really great kind of open conversation going that was between the three of us talking about

led, is talking about looks and stuff like that. And helping each other, you know, test stuff or come up with different ideas. And it was really nerdy. and really, really, really nice for a change. And then that collaborative sensibility also came from our producers, from Joy Gorman and Rebecca Sonich, I'm the showrunner, from Pascal, our line producer, and also from, especially from Jonah Markowitz, our production designer who blew me away.

Like, you know, the design of the design. a show like that. It's so easy, like you said, they to fall into tropes and just make another Western. And one of the things early, very early on that we all agreed on was that, you know, there is the look to Westerns and

it's always, whether consciously or subconsciously, it's always kind of sepia-toned and monochromatic and, you know, and A, all the buildings are beat up. I think that comes a lot from, well, A, from Hollywood, always doing it like that. and be from, you know, when you go to tubes and go to the buildings, they're all beat up and old and weather because they've been there for 100 years.

But in this story, the buildings are three weeks old in some cases, you know. So everything needed to feel new and freshly sawn and colorful. You know, there were fabrics going out on a Sunday. You put on your best dress, you know. And so we're very conscious right away of bringing color into the show. And making sure that it didn't feel like a Western. Days of Heaven was a show that kept coming up in whatever we were talking about, looks and shot design and stuff like that.

And yeah, and that's how it kind of evolved into, you know, we don't want to make a Western, we want to make a story that's as true as possible to the time. You know, the Osage costumes, all the colors of spiritual meaning. And, you know, it's just, it was just, it was such a treat. to be part of that because it was it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah, what was the, you know, normally, because I find a very illustrative,

I'll ask like, what didn't you do? Because, you know, you hack branches off the decision tree and it makes your choices a lot, make a lot more sense, you know, instead of constantly asking questions of like, should we do? But, you know, we've already kind of placed it as like, don't do a throwback Western thing. So what were the sort of, things that the three of you kind of all went like,

ooh, that is what we should link into. Like, because it doesn't really have, maybe I'm wrong, but I wasn't really gathering like a strong vintage, like lens vibe or anything. But yeah, what were you aiming to do? Yeah, I think the overriding goal was to be as transparent as possible with the camera. You know, looking at the, although it has nothing to do with the original series,

I grew up on the original series and looking at it now from the perspective of someone who works in the industry now, boy, that show was overlit. So we wanted to avoid overlighting it, I think, was one of the things. And just being true and being honest to where the light was coming from and how things were, you know, back in the day, you only had, you know, 18 by 18 inch windows in your cottage because that's what you saw it out of the,

of the logs, you know, as you were building the house. So trying to stay honest to think to the time and honest to where light sources are becoming for them, I think was the sort of paramount responsibility that we decided was key. There were some interesting times with when we were building, when Jonah was designing the Ingalls cap and we were being very true. to construction methods of the time, you know, the log cabin techniques and all that. And one of the things that we were, one of the early conversations was about windows and how Jonah was like, you know, they're only so big. And like, you know, we're still making a movie and maybe they could be a little bit bigger.

And he was like, I don't want to share. So then, so we agreed on a compromise. That's right. Can it be just big enough that we don't have to look at the light when we're looking out the window? And so we agreed on his size. And then I remember the construction was in building. And I went down one day and I was like, I never thought of this, but the walls are this thick. So now not only do you have a narrow little window, but they're this deep.

Yeah. You can't really get an angle on it. They have to, almost the light has to come in like horizontally. I didn't even think about that. No, neither did not. Oh, yeah. Anyway, so those are the trials and privations of trying to be honest and try to be true. But I think, you know, we were able to put shears in so we could hit the shears and let that scatter light a little bit.

And I hope we didn't get too over the top with putting candles and fireplaces in places we tried not to. But, you know, there's only so many lighting sources you have in that time period. So that was a big challenge for sure. Yeah, did that, I mean, speaking of hacking branches off the decision tree, did that make it easier in a way? Like, if that's what the light looked like, did you just go like, that's what the light looked like? Because I noticed there's a lot of frame, like, we'll get to the exterior stuff, but there's a lot of frames in the interiors that have wonderful shape. Was that, were you just, you know, grip juggling it? Or, you know, how did you decide where that line was between reality, like real, what?

would be there and pretty image, basically. Well, the first, the early conversations were with Rebecca and with the directors about, hey, you know, are you okay if when a cast number comes, when a character comes into the foreground, for example, if they go into silhouette for a beat. And everyone was like, oh, yeah, you know, that's fine, absolutely. And once you get over that hurdle, now we have a little bit more freedom to let, you know, to let the actors have the floor. And then for me, my approach to that is to always make sure that there's a lit background.

So if they're going to silhouette, there should be something against that they should be able to cut out against. That was a terrible sentence. There should always be a lit background for them to cut out against. So that way I would always, you know, if we had a window on the right side of frame, for example, and most of the action was upstage and somebody came down on stage, we would make sure that they were lit upstage. through the window, but then there was always an extra source coming through that same window that was pointing at the back wall just to give it some shape. But no, for the most part, I'm not a big fan of putting a lot of equipment on the set and getting in everyone's way. We had a lot of two cameras all the time, sometimes three.

Oh, wow. So having as little equipment as possible on the sets. Now, Jonah's sets were all very true to actual size. too. So they were compact. You know, they were they were tight spaces and with the log with the actual log construction, we didn't have a lot of wild walls that we could just pull out and get cameras. And so so we wanted to be, we wanted to have the sort of

forced decision making that comes from shooting in a location, you know, when you're, when you're, you wish you could be a little bit further back, but you can't. So it forces you to think differently about how to how to lens things and how to, how to frame them and how to move the camera. And that's something we wanted on the ship. You asked earlier about, oh gosh, what was it? No.

That made me think of it. Anyway, it'll come back to me. But there was a lot of responding to the environment and responding to the circumstance and problem solving with the camera at the time. and then and then just trying to light it in a way that wasn't like I think there was there's one instance I remember I had to put up tubes inside the the Ingalls cabin to just to cut them out against the background and I was just cringing the whole time we had those lights up you know thinking oh this just looks like a studio set up but yeah they're just the one time I think so yeah I'm happy to

that the you know it does you just made me think of like Right now, I think more than ever, we're seeing the recursive fashion wheel hit the 90s and like early 2000s. Like in all aspects, you know, sometimes it's fashion, sometimes it's film, sometimes it's music, whatever. And now it's like everything, right? And it makes, when you were saying like, oh, we're in the tight space and everything, it makes me think about like back in the day when you'd watch any movie. Like Big Daddy, what the fuck is that apartment? It's huge. Like no one

And he's supposed to be a deadbeat. Like what the fuck? And it really threw off how we perceived, how we know, where we were supposed to be living back at the day. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Yeah. And this was very much like that. We wanted to kind of be like to occupy the space with the cast and to be as transparent as possible. Oh, that's what it. You mentioned lenses and stuff. and not seeing anything that was overtly lendsy. Early on in our talks, there was a lot of discussion between the three of us about being transparent with the camera and not drawing any attention at all to the camera. It's like a Roger Deacon situation where it's if they're noticing the cinematography, then we've failed, you know.

So Ari suggested going with S-4s, and my first reaction was S-4s. Goodness, they're pretty, yeah, if there's a lens that doesn't interfere with anything, it's going to be S-4s. But after I thought about it, like, you know, that's a great, that's, it's a really, they're good-looking lenses, they treat skin tones really well. The bulk is great. They fall off nicely. And they're just sort of not, they're never, they're never, they.

in the sense of they're not imposing anything on the audience. And I think that was super important. You know, my first instincts, which, as it turns out, would have been really tropey, were to get some sort of anamorphic set of lenses that had some sort of character that we could build into the show that in hindsight would have been a mistake. I think it would have just made them, it made the show another Western trying to look cool. So that was a thing. Aspect ratio was another thing that, another thing that,

that my first, Ari was, Ari said, let's do 185. Ari and Nate were both on board. Let's do 185. And I was like, 185. Who's done 185 and eight is? This is a, you know, it's a widescreen show. It's about the prairies and the title.

But there was a lot of writing in Laura's books about the big sky. And Rebecca Sondhine was very keen to include the sky and really emphasized the kind of depthlessness of the prairie sky. So reluctantly, I was like, okay, well, 1-8-5. And then as the show progressed, it was like, oh, this is a really great aspect of for that aspect of the story. Even though the first three or four weeks of the show were just uttered with wildfire smoke from around.

Oh, right. Took that out. It was nasty. That's the thing now. That's just an annual thing when, you know, what time of years the wildfire smoke coming. Didn't you guys get hit with like a tornado or something, too? Yeah, on Nate's episode, yeah. Yeah, I got super lucky with weather.

We never had, we had some days, but it stormed and whatnot, but nothing quite as dramatic as that. I remember, I was in prep, and I had just gone out to the town site and main unit was shooting, and Nate's unit was shooting, and checked in with everyone there. I was like, oh, it's getting a little blustery out. And I said, well, good luck. And I got in my car, and I'm driving back into town. And I'm looking at the clouds going, huh, it's really cool how there's.

They're all going this way over here, and they're all going this way over here. And then for a moment, I'm like, wait a second. They're going that way there and that way there. That means I'm in the middle of it. And then all the tornado warnings started coming up on the phone and stuff. So, yeah, it was an interesting afternoon. That's for sure. I was like, I'm sure glad I'm not shooting today.

Yeah, no kidding. Have you ever been in a, like, I remember I was driving across the country, and we stopped in Indianapolis. and me and my friend got out of the hotel at what we thought was like nine in the more seven in the morning something like that and and we both like stopped and we were like did we sleep it is it is it 6 p.m like the wet like I've never experienced like stop you in your tracks weather where we were like something is wrong and then right a little bit later yeah we were in like the town center and all the cell phones went off like there's tornado company better get out of town Yeah, you're right. You can feel it. There's something, there's something different. I guess that's what makes all the animals scurry out of the forest when there's a,

when there's a fire coming, you know, but yeah, there's definitely a palpable, I don't know what it is. Is it electricity in the air? Is it like there's something that's different? It smells different. Deadness. I think wherever you're around, it's like nothing. You know what? It felt like we walked into a vacuum that was too dark.

Yeah. We were like, it's dim and nothing is moving. Yeah. It's the calm, I guess the calm before the storm kind of thing. It's just something's... Damn, you're not kidding. They do say that. Well, I should have put that together.

Anyway, you had mentioned that as sport. Am I wrong in thinking that... Because, like, I, you know, my... I don't get very often to play with, like, really interesting characterful lenses. It's usually just the lens. lenses that I own or a buddy owns, you know, and we have affordable ones. But, you know, my knowledge of high-end cinema lenses comes largely from American

cinematographer and whatever. And if in my head, it was always like, if you want it fully transparent, you go Master Prime. And if you want it with that cool, cook, 3D pop, interestingness, you go S-4s. And now S-4s are just not, now that we, you know, have like, analyzation tools, you know, we've got entire libraries where you can A, B, everything. You're like, Cook's actually, you're pretty clean. It's true. It's true. You know, a master primes are just, they're so, what's the word, Teutonic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sharp and stuff. I love playing with glass. Like, I love trying to tailor that to the show, you know, like on yellow jackets, we had three different sets of lenses that were tailored to time periods, you know. and we bounce between spherical and anamorphic on that show all the time. I love, you know, some of the vintage stuff that you see nowadays is cool,

but I think it's a little, it's great for stills, but it feels a little too much for me, like to impose that much on the audience feels intrusive, maybe. But I certainly do like finding, like, ending lenses that have a very subtle way of telling a story, you know, that you don't necessarily click into as an audience on a physical level, but rather on a more emotional and subconscious level. Yeah, it's a lot. I love testing lenses and stuff for sure.

You know, my buddy Jake Bain got a hold of these lenses, and so I ended up getting them because I found a screaming deal for him. but the I don't even know if they make them anymore because the name probably threw people off but the SLR magic APO microprimes or hyperprimes same glass

but John Brawley tested them and put a test online comparing it like those, the Primos and I think the S-4s and the microprimes ended up somewhere between a Primo and a S-4 and I was just like because I knew Jake liked him

and I've seen his work. I'm like, that looks good. But I was like, wow, that's fascinating that like these SLR magic, they needed a different name. Yes. That they can have that quality. You know, like the background rendering wasn't chatty.

Flaring was, but really just astounding how close people can get for a cheaper lens. Sure. Yeah. Compared to the things that we consider like the greats of history. That's really cool.

I'm going to check those out, though. Yeah. Yeah, next time you're in L.A., I'll just, you can borrow. Sure. Yeah, great. Do you have, you know, your point about things being too imposing, I was thinking when you were saying,

like, you wanted to be transparent, in my head, had you gone for like a real fudgy, you know, you know, let's say you're shooting super large format, you get something doesn't cover, so it really goes in the corners. That would then not match with how modern, as you were saying, like the production design is.

You know, it would feel like a filter as opposed to being part of the same. Yeah, it would feel like an Instagram. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I think that's exactly, you know, my first instincts were to do something like that and then those were wrong.

Like they were so wrong. Well, it would make sense if you'd, did go, like, there's nothing wrong with doing like a throwback, um, Western, you know, but if everything was all beat to shit like we're talking, then that would probably make sense. I, you know, I, I'm sure I've thought of this in, in, uh, you know, in totality, but the reason I'm stopping is because this is going to come out so stupid. And I'm like, there's no way I've just had this thought right now. I've definitely had this thought before, but it does bear repeating.

that like the lens should match the product. You know what? I think it's mostly that just because I'm around like film students a lot and like, you know, trying to help like kids online or whatever, they will often just get the most characterful lens because it does what we used to do back before we had, you know, when you had to shoot on digital, whatever, you were looking for anything that would give you production value.

Yeah. Yeah. And now it's, I think that that knee-jerk reaction still exists in younger filmmakers. I think so. That doesn't ask the story is what I was getting at. Yeah. Yes. It's just the lenses for the same.

Which is one of the reasons I've never bought lenses myself. I've never owned them because I think if I ever did that, I'd have to just put him in a rental house and let them just go to whoever. Because it seems like a little bit of a conflict of interest on a show like this to say, well, you know, we should use signature primes because, you know, boy, do I have a deal for you. Yeah, yeah. But one of the things that I do love, doing, and more in features than in TV, because things get lost in TV, but is to take, is to bring

producers and the director to the rental house and have, you know, let's look at what Alexa 65 does. Let's look at what an LF does. And let's look at what anamorphic stuff looks like compared to spherical and all the different flavors and stuff. And have them kind of sit, you know, get some food and have everyone just kind of hang out for four or five hours and just look at stuff. and experience it firsthand and go, hey, I like that. I don't like the way it flares, but I like the roundness of how it renders face.

You know, that. And I always find those moments that, well, first, they're a great bonding experience with the director and with the producers. They, it de-mystifies a lot of the, the jargon that we use around, you know, when we're trying to justify a bunch of all the anamorphics expensive. Creamy.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, and then it's just, it just, I don't know, the bonding experience, I think, is the best, the human relationship that comes out of that is so, so valuable. And then you get to make those decisions together instead of having them thrust on you, you know, by the DP. Yeah. You know, that brings up a good question because I think, first of all, just for listeners' sake, like, rental houses want to help. like you don't like I

the other day I did a because people on YouTube were asking you but I did we did a shootout between the Barano and the F55 right think people are interested in saving some money right now because not a lot of people have money and you can get an F55 crazily for like two grand when that thing used to get to Venice basically and and

we just went over to a rare breeds or here in Culver and they just gave us a booth and you know we just shot test they didn't charge. I mean, I went to college. I went to college with the owner, but still, they've experienced this with other rental houses. Like, you make friends pretty quick.

And then they're just like, yeah, come hang out, test stuff, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, yeah, that's something for, yeah, like, like for listeners. Yeah, don't, don't hesitate to just go hang out at the rental house. And, you know, they love putting a body. Well, I don't want to speak for them. But I've never had anything but great experiences going,

hey, can I just grab an Alexa 35? and a 65 and put them together. I just want to show somebody something. Oh, yeah, you know, and then it turns into a whole day of hanging out. But that's one of the simple joys of being in the business, right, is, again, the human relationships. You know, it's the relationship you have with the folks at the rental house, a relationship you have with the, with upcoming directors, you know, you never know who you're going to run into. And then you run into other people that are, that come in, wandering into.

to stick something on a steady cam, you know. And so, yeah, it's, that's one of the best things ever. Yeah, I was, I was helping out, and by helping out, it was more like moral support and just good vibes. But I was helping Bella Gonzalez over at Kesslo do some lens tests. And it's, you know, every rental house is different. But at Kesslo, they like, they have whiteboards everywhere that, it's like the whole wall. And they had like all the projects that were named and like who was there.

like walking through and it was like looking at the frame and reference Instagram. I was like, where's he? I know him. Where's she at? Hold on. All my friends are here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. Yeah. Bella introduced me to one of my favorite DITs ever. That's Caroline Oakhers in in Atlanta. Super great lady. Oh, hell yeah. The yeah, she's great. But all of that to get back to the idea. of go to the rental house, but also everyone runs their tests differently. And I think what we see often, if you're trying to figure out how to run these, is you've got the blinky lights in the back, you've got the one person, you know, two separate skin tones, and then a focus chart and a colored chart,

none of which may be the blinky lights, but like none of that really tells you much. So how do you run them? Well, I do that first. So that's the sort of environment. to show... That's the neutral. ...s sort of intro, the lenses, you know, to people that maybe don't know too much about them.

And, you know, walking through with... It's so cliche. Walking through with the flashlight, it's like, you need the flashlight. You need the flashlight. Yeah, yeah. You gotta have the flashlight. Gotta do it.

Christmas lights and all that. And then I think the next step really is to get, you know, once you've narrowed your choices down to a handful, get all those out to a location or onto one of the sets that the art department's building and put them in situate, see how they react, you know,

in the environment that you're actually going to be using them and, you know, have the, couple it with your, couple it with your let tests and stuff as well so that you can kill two birds at one stone

and see how far you can push a lot with a certain set of glass, you know, and that kind of thing. But definitely putting it in the space, putting it through the paces in a way that's as close to how are you going to be beating

on them on the day is important, I'm doing second unit on Last of Us right now. Oh, sick. Yeah. Is Goldschmidt still shooting that? No, it's Ula Berklin and Kassania, Saria. Kassena, who's the great unrecognized oter of the show. She's really, she's really fun.

Get her on this show. I will. When you're done. You know what? I will let her know, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, I'll take it. She gets overlooked so much, and it's crazy.

Like, you'll love Doc a nerd. She's amazing. Anyway, we test the hell out of everything on this show, and it's, and it's super fun. You know, there's days when I'm doing tests for Ula or for Kisania, and I'm like, well, not really a lot for Kisna. She likes to do a lot of her own testing, but, you know, we'll have something set up, and, and Ola will be like, okay, I'm going to go back to set now, and he'll disappear. I'm like, wait, hang on, what do we actually test? Like, what is he really looking for? What does he want to?

But it's good. It's super fun to test stuff. And, you know, we do rain tests and fire tests. And so it's, yeah, it's super good. We're super lucky to be able to do that and get paid to, you know, to do it. Sure. Yeah, you know, you mentioned the Lut thing. How did you, what was the prairie look then?

Because, again, it doesn't, it's. I'm not even going to editorialize. Like, go ahead. Non-intrusive. Yeah, non-intrusive. Our result was very close to 709. You know, we didn't really do a gap. Legner, not the camera.

Yeah, yes, yes. And, yeah, just super, super clean, super transparent. I have a preference to, because I can get lazy. I like to put a shooting Lut on or viewing Lut on that's a little bit more unforgiving in the shadows. I like to crunch the shadows in the Lut because it forces me to put a little bit more fill in just so I don't get trapped at HDR at the back end.

So that was the only difference that I made to our shooting Lut. I think it was basically the airy 709 look that came out of their library and then I crushed the blacks a little bit more for mine. Was there any like, I find I have to do this with Canon's cinema sensors a little bit, but I tend to have to goose the density because everything can feel a little thin.

Yeah, yeah, especially Log C4. If you're looking at Log C4, if you're used to look at regular Log C, and then now you're on a 35 and you, and you're not looking at Log C4, and you're just like horrified with that. Well, why is it so dark and milky? Well, once you get into the understanding of it,

It's good. Yeah, I mean, the airy cameras have always been a go-to for me. I think because I just worked with them so much that I can predict their behavior, which is to say there's really nothing to predict. They're just, you know. Known quantity. Yeah, yeah, and they do everything so well. And, yeah, and knowing always that,

especially in the 35 color science, that it's everything's basically metadata. You know your ASA's metadata. Like everything's, the raw is the raw and you know that you're in good hands

and you can pull kind of anything out of it if you really had to. Unless you really mess the iris up. Yeah. You know, there's, I'm sort of mentally developing an article for Pro Video Coalition because it feels like every day

I see the same discussion from so-called film enthusiasts talking about how everything is flat and then people talk like oh it's flat because they relight it and post or they're fixing it in the fix they say fixing as if that's the goal like that you just shoot it you just aim a camera and then you get in the grade and you're like now I'm going to create the and I'm starting to like I think I'm going to have a stroke

because it's like in one thread you'll see people complain about one thing and attribute it to two diametrically opposed ideas. And so with that being said, when you are in the grade, how much, and not specifically with Prairie, but just kind of like an overall, how much are you imposing upon the image after the fact? You know, because obviously there's simple things that I think no one really is complaining about, which is like, oh, we would have flagged that wall. It was a little hot, but we knew we could just window that down. That's not like whatever. But I think people think there's like a CG element almost to color correction. Yeah.

I mean, there almost is, you know, sometimes. There can be. I've used it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The hayes modifier in the doctor. Actually, you'll see, I'll send it to you. I had an interview frame and they really liked the sun coming in, but you can't see it. You know, it's like we set it up in 10 seconds. And so I just, in resolve, put streaks of light coming through the windows and hitting the floor and no one said anything. I didn't say that I did it.

They were just like, that looks great. And I was like, yeah. Anyway, so I'm the culprit, but go ahead. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's, um, I've always, like, I've only done, actually, you know what? No, I haven't even done a show in a traditional film print. Like, everything has always been a DIY or always been a telecini, you don't know when I started. So using the telecini facility as a tool has always been part of the, part of my toolbox.

And now with, you know, with the way the resolve works or the, bass light. You're right. It's almost CG. You can kind of do anything. So I always

have that in mind. When I'm doing features, or actually for anything, really, I try to have Maxine Jervais, my favorite colorist in the world,

always protecting me at the back end if we can make a deal work with the studio. And having that language ahead of time and knowing that hey Maxine's going to be looking out for

the things that she knows that I'd like to do it's always like it's always a great cradle to to work in and now I know that when I'm on set I know that I can like you say I can ignore that window for now because I can deal with that later as long as the metadata as long as the log C is fine

we can do with that later and maybe not spend 45 minutes trying to get a fly spotter in right here on set So in that sense, I use finishing as a tool to save time and money on set, knowing that you can deal with it more surgically in post. As far as changing the look of something in Telicity, or not in Telicity, in the D.I. That's more subjective. I don't know if that's something I'd push for. there's certainly been times when we've gotten in the room

and looked at something and then gone, maybe this whole scene should be a little bit warmer or a little bit cooler or whatever and then tweaked it that way and then, yeah, it's a good thing we did that. But yeah, I don't, I don't, I know some people like to shoot something clean and then do all the looks and stuff in post.

I don't think that way I like to kind of be in the space and let the cast and the circumstance of the actual location kind of bleed into the picture, you know, a little bit more. So, yeah, it's always been a tool, but one that I've always tried to be disciplined with using to not overthink myself in post. Yeah, the one thing I will say that has, even before I knew what it was, bugged me,

was the hyper-qualifier look. You know, really it was like, like when the D.I. Like when Resol was really hidden, you know, with digital was like, I think, I hesitate to say Transformers because like I'll even watch that back and feel like, no, I think that was mostly lighting. But, you know, it's like I saw a frame the other day where it was like the skin was like dead on the line squeezed. And then everything else was like clearly tinted green. And I was just like, damn, that, okay, that's aggressive. Yeah.

Yeah. that my taste. I do that something. You know, that's one thing I've discovered over the years, too, that from the lighting side of things, uh, you can get away with an awful lot in terms of environmental lighting and how stylized that is. If you keep skin tones neutral, right?

So, or close to neutral or, or closer to neutral than anything else. Uh, but doing it in post that would be pretty, uh, hard to hide. Yeah. Like you're saying. Uh, but yeah, your transformers certainly, there's certainly, a studio light the faces this way kind of feel that. I was going to say studio polish.

Yes. Yes. You know, about lighting, because I think that was the thing that struck me most about Prairie was you're outside a lot. And it looks very good. Like it, you know, it looks obviously natural, but with just like a little, you know, a little bit of heightened naturalism, as everyone likes to say.

And I was wondering kind of what, and obviously you're dealing with different weather patterns and all this, but what was kind of the, maybe general approach and maybe some specific examples of how you wanted to tackle those without getting too, you know, as you were saying, too much stuff on said. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, that was the thing. That was one of the big challenges was of shooting on the prairie, it was that you always end up going, oh, let's look over here, now let's look over here.

So where do you put your gear? you know, there was always like this little tiny wedge where you could put all the carts and stuff. Scheduling is the first thing. Just trying to schedule days so that you're always shooting into the backlight or the crosslight the way you want it to be on the screen. Huge thing.

Having a, again, human relationship with the AD department and having a nice back and forth at them and being able to help each other find the way through the days through the schedule that gives you the best. picture on the screen. That's especially important in TV because, you know, it's in the grand scheme of things and features, you know, it's the story that drives everything. And in TV, it's the schedule.

So it's trying to find that balance and bringing the ADE team into a collaborative relationship rather than that combative one is always super, super helpful. So that's, that's the biggest influence, I think, on how the show looks. Number two, having, I didn't do a lot. lot of lighting, lighting day exterior. We relied on the sun a lot and on removing ambient light. So we always had telehandlers with fly swatters, negative fill, all the time to take fill light away and give it a little bit of shape. Telehandlers are crane?

Yeah, it's like a stunt guys use them a lot for rigging. They're kind of a straight arm with a forklift on the end. They get the lift quite a bit, but they can get up. they can carry a lot of weight. They're super squat, so you can fly a 20 by 40 fabric without worrying too much about it, overpowering the lift and the wind.

And we had, I think our go-to on that show was a 20-by-40 or 220-by-40 solids with beards on them that we could drop down to the ground, so you could effectively get a 40-by-40. Just to take stray light away on the camera side. And it was funny because early on we were doing exteriors and Luke Bracey that plays Charles.

He's like, tell me, he goes, I've never seen this before. Tell me, tell me about this stuff. And I was like, oh, we're just taking light away to build some contrast and, you know, keep things a little bit more, give your faces a little bit more shape than they would have, by the West. He's like, that's really cool. He goes, from an acting perspective, it's really interesting for us because it kind of gives us a proscenium to play towards.

Yeah. Because it's interesting. And so he was kind of digging it too. And also I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff we do in old school filmmaking. And this is kind of a dying thing I've noticed these days is we don't spend enough time looking after the cast as we used to. You know, everything like lighting-wise, all our lights are on a dimmills. being bored controlled by somebody in another room. You know, a lamp hop will run in with a with an eye light or something and then run away.

And there's no, and the DP's sitting at the monitor doing things. And as an actor, you know, you're standing in the space and people run in and up. But nobody comes up and goes, hey, we're taking care of you and we're making sure that you look the best that you can. And that's something that's important to me. and I like to make sure that the cast knows and has confidence that we're looking out for them. And so when Luke noticed things like that,

it's comforting to me because it demonstrates that it doesn't go unnoticed. And it's super important for me to make sure that they know they're looked after. And I tell the electrics all the time, like just keep one sky panel or something not on the board that has to be handled manually. And even if it's not doing anything, let's bring one in and just and put it there and futs with it a little bit.

Just to give the cast confidence that we're there for them. And we're all trying to make this, you know, make them look as good as possible. It's so important. And something you don't see a lot anymore. You know, I wonder, there's like my brain goes to two places of like a potential why. Although I should just ask you why you've. think that is, but you can answer after me. In my head, I feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, you know, don't talk to

the talent, you know, like the, the amount of celebrity that has kind of hit. Simultaneously with, as you're saying, like how sort of mechanical everything can become. Because now everything's wireless. You know, everyone could just be and remote control the film production almost. Yeah. That would be my guess. But do you have a better insight? No, I wouldn't say that.

I think it comes down to the individual cast member also. There's so much instant instantaneous trajectory now with people's careers that go from, you know, somebody we never heard of two weeks ago to being number one on a hundred. million dollar movie now. And without condemning anybody's trajectory, it feels like the people that, like the cast members that have been here a long time and have earned their way to where they are are the ones that appreciate the human relationships. And the ones that have just popped out of nowhere are the ones that just expect to show up, look great, do their thing, and then leave.

and they can avoid eye contact with anyone on the way, that's perfect. The best experience I've had ever with a cast member was on a little indie that we were doing years ago. I was gaffing it. And it was a movie called Emile, and we shot it in Victoria, VC. And they had gone, it was a $2 million movie,

a little tiny thing, almost 30 years ago now. And they had sent the script to Ian McAllen, and never heard anything. So they were just like, oh, you know, we'll just carry on. So they'd gotten about half of their financing put aside and ready to go. And then Ian's agent called and said,

hey, Ian apologizes. He completely forgotten about your script, but he's read it now and he really wants to do the show, but he can only be there for the month of December because he wraps X-Men 2 or whatever it was end of November, and then he's got a stage engagement in London in January. So if you guys can make it work in, December, he's in.

So they were, now they're caught in this conundrum of, well, we don't, we only have half the money. Like, what do we do? Do we make the movie with half the money? Or do we say no to Ian McKellen? Like, that's kind of a, you know. So they, so they decide, you know what? Let's, let's go for it.

Let's do it. And I remember getting hired and it was, it was super low budget. And sitting with the producer and having him say, hey, can you make sure that. every morning have your guys come having had because we can't afford breakfast, we can only do lunch on the show, so there's no. And we had a volunteer lamp-op who coincidentally is gaffing my unit on last of us now, Blaine Ackley, and he came out and we would, every week, everybody in the electric department, which was myself, the best boy, the Jenny Hupp, would set aside like $100 or $200

bucks out of our paycheck so we could pay Blaine because they couldn't afford to pay him either, right? Anyway, so Ian comes aboard and we start the show and about, I know, two or three days into it, Ian somehow finds out that the crew's not getting breakfast. So he goes to the producers and says, it's come to my understanding that the crew's not getting breakfast. And it's because of me. And they said, no, no, no, no, it's, yes, but no, not. Indirectly. He goes, it's because of me.

So he's like, please let me take care of that. So he paid for breakfast for the crew, run a show. He looked after every member of the crew that was in a phase of their career where they were learning their craft. Like he would watch the script supervisor, for example. And if there was any moment when they weren't paying attention, he would hit them with a lion.

or a quiet like what's the next what did I do with the and just in his own quiet kind of way he was helping everyone hone their craft you know yeah he looked out and it was it was because

you know he came into into stardom pretty late in life right and he's never forgotten you know every step that it's taken to get him you know where he is so and that grace, you know, that he brought to it was so, like, palpable.

It was really cool, like a super super special experience. You know, I, that reminds me of, oh, go ahead. No, I was going to say, you know, in contrast to an Instagram star that's now a movie star. Yeah. But, I mean, that's an even better transition. What I was going to say, which was, I have worked a lot of concerts. and I remember one specifically, this is going to sound like this is an indictment on rappers

and I think it's only because it's a one microphone situation, right? It's a lot easier to get started as a rapper than to put together a band, whatever. But this concert series we were running was Lil John. This is like five years ago. Lil John and then I won't name him, but a what we'd call a SoundCloud rapper, you know hit start them pretty fast on that website and then yeah so college students seemed to want him so we brought him on and little john was the nicest motherfucker i remember met in my life he gave what like

he at one point he he had like don julio 1942 on his writer but we had like five shows with him so we got five bottles right and then and then we gave him one and then the next show we gave him the next and he like pops his head out and he's like what's this we're like oh you had it on your writer he's like oh no that was just for that first show i didn't think And we were like, oh shit. And he goes, did you guys get me one for each show? And he goes, yeah. And he goes, oh, you can have it.

We're like, all right. But he's awesome. Yeah. It's pretty cool. But same thing about like kind of like leading from experiences. Like he was on stage for all the openers. Stayed there for this. The sound call out rapper was actually the headliner, weirdly enough.

And was just sit there and would like talk to us about. like touring and like, you know, it's very, very gracious with this time. But the SoundCloud rapper guy flamed out so fast. He'd come out and like start doing a song and no one knew his music. This is just a random smattering of college students. So he'd stop the song mid thing and be like, what the hell? And he, all five shows, he like left stage, like, not even halfway through his set,

not even having done half of a set. Like he'd do a quarter of a song and then get met. And I was just like, and he wouldn't talk to anyone, you know, know, he needed the biggest green room, all this stuff. And Lil Jon's just like, yeah, put me wherever, man. I'm good. You know, we're just like, see, there's something, there's something about the, the, getting over that fame hump or whatever it is, you know, making it and realizing nothing

has changed and then being like, I guess we shall, I'll just be nice to each other. Yeah, exactly. That's 100%. Like, I remember when I was doing, like, M-O-M-M-M-O-W type shows. And there was always like, you know, there's cast members that are that are on the way up and they're super nice and super you know eager to please everyone and then there's ones at the top of their career that are super nice because they remember how it hard it was to get there and they're you know they have gratitude for for where they are and then there's a lot of them in between

that haven't really ever gotten there but but think they have and you've got and then you've got the kind of negative experience sometimes you know but yeah but that's true of everyone not just I don't mean to single out cast members that's true of everybody No, I was going to say I've, I mean, I'm not even going to say other DPs. I've experienced having the knee-jerk reaction of being like, not necessarily don't you know who I am, but like someone being like, oh, so are you like a videographer? Like, what do you do? And I'm just like, no, I'm a cinema, you know, like getting all. And then, no, I'm not.

I mean, yeah, sure, technically, but also, I haven't shot like a feature film. I understand why that person wouldn't say, like, I guess I've shot a feature doc now. So I guess that counts. But from their mind, you know, there's Netflix and then there's whatever the fuck I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

And that's something that I've, and I've, maybe I've talked to you about this the last time we chatted. but I got into a stage of life doing episodic stuff, you know, where you kind of get a little bit burnt out. And I was finding myself getting more and more irritable with just the day-to-day process. And, you know, a director would say, hey, can we try this? And I'd be like, I know what he's going to suggest,

and I think that's bullshit. And I would just get grouchy for no reason. And I think it's a little bit to do. with well, maybe burning out, but that's an easy excuse. But I think the bottom line is, for me, was just ego. And it's like, oh, well, he thought of that or they thought of that without, and it's actually a better idea than mine, but I didn't think of it. So I would get defensive about stuff.

And I've really had to sort of take a step back and take a breath and go, look, you know, let's find the best way to do this rather than the way that was my idea and not theirs. And sometimes that's hard. Sometimes it's easy. But at the end of the day, again, if you can step back from your ego, you can build a better human relationship and find a better product at the end. You know, something, it ends up better on the screen when it's collaborative. Bob Zemeckis, you know, working with him, it was always best idea wins.

And when it's someone of that caliber, it's hard as a minion of it, is to imagine that anything that you have to say would carry any weight with him. But because he's so collaborative, it does. You know, when I was going to do that show, I had a little conversation with Don Burgess, who shot 30 years of stuff with Bob. And I said, you know, Don, is there a, what are the pitfalls?

Like where, like, what are the landmines that I should watch out for with Bob? Like, what, you know, any trigger words? And Don said, no. Just, you know, he's the greatest filmmaker. you'll probably ever work with and he's hired you to be his DP. So be his DP. If he asks you your opinion or something, give it to him.

Don't bullshit him. Don't tell him what you think he wants to hear. Tell him what you think. And you'll find that you'll have a way better relationship with him. And it was true. It was really great. So I think, yeah, being able to put ego aside and put the project first and, you know, the well-being of the story, paramount, everything else falls into a book.

place, but it's tricky sometimes, for sure. Yeah, I mean, the cousin to that feeling that I needed to really consciously nip in the bud, like, as fast as I could, because I wouldn't catch it in the moment. That would always piss me off later, which was, director says they want something. My brain goes, oh, my God, like, that's out of fashion, that's pastiche, that's, name, name anything. Like I, we are past that.

You're living in a different, and it's like, the way I was able to recalibrate it was, okay, genius. If we're past that and that's, you know, we've done that before,

then execute it. You should know, right? If you're, if you're so good, that myself taught clearly is amazing. Yeah. If you're so good,

give it to him. Like, why are you, he's paying your fucking bills, dude. Like, just, who cares.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And one of the things that used to, that for no reason, used to drive me nuts was when a director would say, oh, I've got all these reference photos that we can look at together. And once in a while you get...

I do like those. Yeah, well, sometimes you... But then sometimes you get a director that just wants to replicate, like, just, let's do this shot. Oh, copy it. That shot's been done. So, you know, Kevin.

So for a long time, I'm like, oh, they got reference. It's what happened to reading it off the page. But now it's like this is a good language that we could talk with, you know, with Shotdeck and any of these other resources. It's great to be able to kind of identify a language, a visual language, right away, you know, like in Little House referencing Days of Heaven. You know, it immediately gets everyone on the same page.

Okay, this is what we're after. It's not, you know, we're not making Westworld. We're making Days of Heaven. It's a different. So now, you know, I look forward to those conversations, you know, of sharing inspiration, sharing, you know, reference stuff for sure. It's, it's, and again, stepping past ego so that I could absorb that has been, is better thing. Well, the other thing that's with reference to, and I don't know if, which by the way is why this show is called that, is the idea of, you know, I'm a far more visual person than anything.

You know, I don't do well. Like early in my career when I was just like trying to find companies that would let me, you know, fashion companies, whatever that let me shoot something for free. I remember one time, he's now a good friend of mine, but we were shooting for this fashion company called P&Coh. And I said, and I said, what do you want here? Like, what do you want it to look like? and he said, just vibes, man. And I, bro, I nearly had a conyption.

I was like, what does that mean? That's not a thing. You can't visually make vibes. And now I get it because I'm older and I understand like he was just saying like go with what feels good in the moment. But that's the nice thing about having references is like if someone says, I want it to look vibe like this, now you know what they mean. Or like I had another friend say, just find some cool frames.

I was like, okay, well, my cool might be different than you're cool because we didn't do the prerequisite. There should be some pre-production there, you know. Either pre-production or you know this director well enough now that just as a person, which I think were steps that they don't really tell you in film school or wouldn't fail. No one's going to correct you. Yeah. Again, it comes down to human relationships, having a conversation about, you know, show me your references.

And tell me what it is about this. Is it the tones? Is it the color? Is it the lighting? You know, what is it? And then, you know, the more conversations you can have about whatever. It doesn't have to be, you know, you could talk about cat fur for all I care. As long as there's conversations happening, you're getting to know each other better.

And that cannot help but make it, you know, make it work better on set. I have this habit at lunch of disappearing. I'm not a huge lunch meeting kind of guy. I know some people love to get stuff done it over. lunch or the dream over shooting and for me i'm like no this is this is my time so i like to kind of vanish and take a nap that's that's what i do at lunch you know um because then it you're not you're not loading up with three pounds of roast beef and and hitting the afternoon in a haze and uh yeah that's that's a big thing for me is taking a nap yeah i mean that and uh just

i think even if you just close your eyes like i've firmly believe that there's a lot of value in, you know, I don't know if people, I think people think that meditation takes something. But if you just quietly close your eyes and any time a thought comes into your head, just acknowledge it and then just try to like focus on, again, your breathing, whatever. But doing that for 15 minutes can reset your whole. It's like putting on a new pair of shoes and socks. Yep. It's another one that's good. Yep.

That's another good one. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. 100%. Midday reset for sure. Oh, yeah. I've got actually. I have what I literally labeled is the reset kit. And it's got like portable toothbrush and mouthwash, mince, cologne. Yeah. A gentle one. Don't get crazy. Deodorant, caffeine pills, you know, Zin, if you're into that.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's my reset kit. Yeah. 100%. Because it's so cerebral, right? I mean, you're putting a lot into it. There's a lot of energy that goes into shooting anything, you know, aside from the physical aspect of it.

So, yeah, you need to reset or the afternoon is just tedious. I'll come home from a day at work or from a week of shooting, for example, and you'll be home with my wife and daughter. And they'll be like, where do you want to go for dinner? And I'll be like, I don't care. Like, I make decisions all that you guys decide. I just don't want to make a decision. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I'm well aware that my girlfriend works like 12-hour days teaching dance and working at like a dance convention and stuff. And, you know, I haven't seen her since literally 12 hours. I haven't seen her since she woke up. And then she'll get home like, you want to get something to eat? And she'll just be like, I swear to God, if you ask me to make any choices right now. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair.

That's fair. I'm going to stop doing that. I'm just going to tell you where we're going. And if you say no, then we won't. Speaking of choices, your camera just made a choice to go to the back wall for focus. It's come back now. Oh, yeah. No, the focus patch is right here.

And it's an older camera. so it doesn't have face tracking. If I do that, you go. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know you're obviously very busy, and I've kept you just a little bit over. But once again, these conversations are great. These are really great.

So it was great chatting. I hope we can chat again. And please send over, what was her name again? Kucenia Sarita. Yeah. Get them over here and we'll have a chat with them too. Yeah, I'm sure she'd love that. Very good.

Cool. Well, it's great to see you again, Kay. You too, brother. Stay in touch and have a bit. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McBellan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.