Frame & Reference Podcast - 260: "House of the Dragon" Cinematographer PJ Dillon, ASC ISC

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

This week we have the absolutely evervescent PJ Dillon, ASC ISC on the program to talk about his work on the new season of "House of the Dragon"!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this, episode 260 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop a new conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, PJ Dillon, A.S.C. I.C. D.D.P. of House of the Dragon. Enjoy. And you said you were shooting Wednesday? I'm shooting Wednesday, yeah. He's third and final season. Yeah. I didn't see the second one. I really liked the first one. Yeah, no, it's good. I mean, you know, like the attraction for me is primarily. to work with Tim Burton, which is an amazing experience. And also the studio is 15 minutes from my house.

So, you know, I spent a lot of time on the road. I spent a lot of time working away from home. And the producer, Karen Richards, is a good friend of mine. And the opportunity to work with Tim was just like you, just in terms of a career bucket list thing, it's not something you could pass up, you know. So I've had, I shot four episodes in season two with him, and I'm doing five episodes in season three, and it's been blissful, you know. What's your favorite Tim Burton film?

You know, I think Ed Wood maybe, actually, you know, like, there's so many brilliant Tim Burton films, but I love Ed Wood particularly. I am yeah that's one you know if you know if my wife and I are you know on a have the glass of wine or something and it's like well we should want something you know that that'd be a go-to movie you know it's that in sideways and big lebeiske do you know what I mean just something that's not too taxing but just amazing in all sorts of ways yeah I it's funny sideways weirdly enough was one of the films that semi got me into filmmaking because they shot that not too far away from my house in Napa. Oh, my big, right.

And I was in high school and I was tangentially, you know, thinking about like, oh, a filmmaking sounds fun. You know, when you're young, you don't know what job you're going to do or anything. And my dad who worked in the wine industry was like, I know where they're felt, like, do you want it was, you know what? It was sideways in the parent trap, where the two films that like came to town. and they were like, I get, we can just go over there. Like, they're not, you know, it's at my friend's house.

Do you want to go? You know, you know, bunch of it like that. Do you think that the work, this is a little like inside baseball, but the work being in Ireland is, are you in Ireland? I'm in Ireland, yeah. Yeah, it seems like the work is coming to you now. Does that feel accurate? Yeah, no, but I mean, it probably has been for the last,

15 years or so. Like when I... The first film I worked on was in 1989. I was a hammer trainee. And in that year, in that calendar year in Ireland, there were two movie shot, like two. So the film industry in Ireland was commercials, occasional commercials, because there was one TV station.

Or maybe there was two at that time, but there was certainly no more than two. And so the film industry was, was small and limited and there was not a lot of work. And then, so I came in in 1989 and for me, my formative years were shooting short films for free, working for free. Like, to get to work on short films for free was really competitive. Do you know what I mean?

And you were like, oh, God, that guy's been asked to do it. And, you know, as a clapper loader or as a, you know, assistant grip. Yeah. just trying to get into the industry in any way was really competitive. And then it sort of like it kind of boomed a bit in the 90s, then it died off again. But since sort of probably, for the last 20 years, the Irish government brought in a tax incentive scheme, which has attracted a lot of foreign production. There are a couple of really great producers in the country who, like servicing producers

who work to bring TV shows and films in and the crews have gotten bigger but it's still a very limited, there's still a limited amount of studio space, there's still, there are, you know, there are more crew now, but there still isn't like a huge pool of crew.

So, so, you know, the industry can probably cope with, you know, three or four big jobs at a time. And after that, it becomes difficult to service that. Yeah, I mean, It's kind of. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

I cut across. Yes, the work is coming to us. But because the crews have gotten better, because the facilities are good and because of the tax incentive schemes. Yeah. First of all, feel free to cut over me anytime you want. No one's fucking listening for me. But it does that it now coming, this is the craziest thing to think about. Now coming from the Los Angeles side, when you say like, oh, you know, we can only bear like three, four big jobs.

It's like, yeah, but there's only so. many of you. And that sounds like an embarrassment of riches. Whereas on this side, there's, you know, 300,000 of us going, uh, nothing, you know? Yeah, no, I know. I know. I know. It, you know, I don't have a lot of, like, I've worked in the States a few times. You know, I live there in the 90s for a bit. And, you know, I've done a couple of jobs in the States and in Canada and stuff. But not recently. Like, I haven't, I haven't been there since before. COVID working. Well, actually, is that true?

I was back doing like bits and pieces of jobs, but not full jobs. But yeah, it seems to be quiet there, you know, it seems, which is kind of a shocking indictment on the system. Well, you know, it's like you bring up the tax thing. Like that's a huge thing. My theory, now again, I work in documentary primarily. some and corporate type stuff. I haven't done corporate in a while, but, uh,

so I'm, I'm a little bit outside of it. You know, this type of stuff is where I get a lot, you know, most of my information. But, uh, it does, my weird theory is that if, you know,

let's fix the planet and then we'll fix it home. If the U.S. just had universal health care, that would solve a lot of issues. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm pretty sure that's a, massive chunk of cash that productions have to take on, that they can just go, oh, just go to Ireland.

They fucking, you know, the UK, whatever. They, they, they, Canada, they can figure, they can bear it. I think you're, you're not wrong. You know, and like the other thing is that like we work almost exclusively in Ireland, the UK, it's changed a little bit in the UK in the last couple of years, but we work in 10-hour continuous day. So we, we work, our normal working days, 8 to 6. sometimes it's wonderful seven to five you know and and but that's it and crews don't want the overtime

they don't want to do overtime they will do it if if you're if you haven't quite finished the scene and you need an hour yeah you might once a week or once a fortnight do an hour's overtime really unusual sometimes you do two hours overtime but that's really unusual whereas in obviously in the states it's incentivized begs for it. Yeah. Exactly. So it's actually,

so that's why, you know, yesterday when I was late and came on to see and was a little bit frazzled, it's because I finished end of the week and you,

you get up to a certain speed of shooting and your adrenaline is up. You have a certain amount of work to do and you come in on a Friday and you go, we've 10 hours to do this there. So you work like at that pace.

And the whole crew works at that pace. And that doesn't really exist in the States when, you know, Friday often turns into Saturday where, you know, you can end up working 12 or 13 or 14 hours. It doesn't, you know, that pace doesn't exist. So it's a slightly different way of shooting because the crews here have gotten used to the set deal, 10 hours continuous and are happy and are happy to finish after 10 hours and go home to see their kids. yeah and honestly i i prefer that not that not that i've experienced that level of it but like i would rather are you doing like friends you know people just bring you snacks throughout the day and shit yeah no i mean there's catering runs from you know like if if you start at eight then catering would start at 12 and finish a tour and whatever like most departments will get an opportunity

like if they're 12 electricians at any one time two of them can take a break for 20 minutes and go and eat, you know, someone like me. Yeah, you've got people bringing your food all the time, which is a problem in the itself. It's like, stop bringing me food. I think that's a better system, you know, the, not, I, I was just talking, who was I talking to a couple days ago? Oh, Kim Miles. He was saying that like during lunch, he likes to go take a nap.

You know, he does like a little meditation and shit. And so there is, you know, different. ideas. Of course there is. And I can definitely see the attraction in that too. And like it is sometimes difficult for directors coming from the US who haven't worked the system where like the lunch break is where you like sort of assess the morning's work and figure out what you're going to do in the afternoon. You know, that doesn't exist. But what I find is that is that most directors who are not used to the system and come in after the first week, they get used to it and they sort totally embrace it. And the fact that you

you know, you do have downtime, you do finish, there's always something to do after 10 hours. We'll always have a 15th and a meeting about something or go and look at the location for the following week or, you know what I mean? So it's never strictly 10 hours, but it is strictly

10 hours shooting. And usually I'm home 12 hours after I've left. Yeah. Do you find that that changes the way that you approach pre-production? It does, of course, yeah, because

like you structure what you need to do. You know when you have your schedule in advance of shooting, you know what you need to achieve, and you pinpoint the days, like we call them red days. It's like, we're going to struggle this day, you know? So you start to put in place, you know, whatever remedial stuff needs to happen to make that turn that red day into a normal day.

You know, and don't always achieve that. Like some days you do do, you know, you do an hour over or some, you know, some days you don't complete. You know, like, it's like any, like if you're in the same location for three days and you don't complete on the first day, nobody's panicking. If you're, you know, half a day behind after day two, then, you know, fingers get a bit swept. But, but you can, you tend to get good at managing the time and figuring out. and with directors as well you know like with directors you you tend to get better at figuring out

what do we really need you know not not would it be great to have you know and um and that that becomes creative in its own way do you know what I mean that sometimes and Tim's absolutely great at that

Tim is great at like cutting his cloth do you know what to he can look at something and go you know what like this is the best way to do that and you're like that's genius I was like, you know, just came up with there.

Is like, how'd you think you not? I was going to ask like what, uh, not that this is necessarily what we were set out to talk about, but, um, whenever I talk to anyone who's, who's worked with,

you know, your David Finchers or your, uh, uh, anyone else, I just bring him up. He's my one guy, you know,

but every, at this point at, mine too, you know, yeah. Um, but, uh,

Is there anything you've learned so far working with Tim that, like, you think is applicable to other areas? You know, not specifically Tim's work, because his is very specific, but, you know, things that you take on to other projects. I'm sure, like, off the top of my head, I can't think of anything specific. But he does have, he does see the world differently to most people I've met. Do you know what I mean? Like, he will look at a friend. Seriously. Yeah.

No, but he will. Like he will, and I've seen it, and I've stood beside it and seen in action where he will look at a frame and he will see something that honestly, if I had been standing in front of it for 10 hours, I wouldn't see. You know, and you're like, okay.

And you do get an insight into, and I suppose like being exposed to that does, so like I find, for example, with operators coming on to the job as, you know, we've sort of our regular operators, but then if you've multiple cameras or whatever operators come in who haven't worked on the show before

and they set up a shot and you fall into his way of thinking so you're like that's what you would normally do but you're not going to do that now this is what you need to do you know and so there's a there's a bit of that

like he's he's total perfectionist and I like that I like that stuff so like for example you know like most operators will I caught cheating

that like to set up the shot when somebody walks into a close-up camera will like float

to keep correcting and stuff his frames are static you know like when they move

and when they're static they're static so you need to develop the discipline to have the

frame right so to when somebody walks in you don't have to constantly correct

you know little little things like that they're quite you know they're quite

sort of nuanced and specific but you see it in the cut then because in the cut it's you know static frame the static frame the static frame which is his style it's not you know so there's no there's no unnecessary movement in the frame

little things like that's not to say that we never we never do that we do of course but generally if you start out trying to have that discipline it definitely imposes a style on what you're doing I feel like so like something I always try to do is be as best I can, you know, writing for this website of Right for Pro Video Coalition

and doing this and everything. I'll be on Reddit trying to help, you know, younger people learn, like try to be the resource that I didn't have in college and shit. And I'm noticing now it's becoming more and more difficult because there is the, like, let's call it the YouTube school of filmmaking, which can be very valuable for technical things, but doesn't seem to, I shouldn't say value, but I guess they're kind of not trained to value what you're talking about, which is that sort of formalism, you know, protecting the frame in such a way, which for cinematography, I find is difficult to say, like I just had a, let's say a spirited discussion with the guy about talking about quote unquote better cinematography.

Someone was asking, why does Achivo shot children of men and Digger? Why does children of men look better? And I was like, it doesn't look better. It looks different. You prefer children. I prefer the look of children of men. But it looks different. I think we're losing the, like, not everything can have that level of contrast.

Not everything can have that grade in production design. But there seems to be a yearning for somewhat. talking about like that just that fucking dialed like you know precision and also weirdly enough dark shit people are like i don't want i don't want it to be fun i feel bad so i want i wanted to look bad not bad but you know what i mean no there is of course i mean there's it but isn't that that's what great about what we do do you know what i mean and like you know like i have done some a little bit of teaching and I'll take

two, you know, distinctly different movies and screen them for the class and say, you know, which you prefer and usually it's a 50-50 spit and do you know what I mean? One will be like a handheld verite style film and the other will be like

rugged tradition or something like a very classic deframed, beautifully executed formal film and just people respond to different things and that isn't that what's great. Do you know what I mean? Like you want that.

You want that difference. So, you know, and I would not, I would not want to be doing the same thing all the time, you know. But in this circumstance where I'm working there, I'm really, I'm really valuing that precision and, you know, working with a master who does it so well, you know. Well, you're also in kind of an interesting situation with House of the Dragon

because Game of Thrones, I think, was one of the shows that came out when I was in college and I remember people would get together. That was like

one of the last like water cooler shows that I remember where like all of my friends would meet at someone's house and they would all watch it when it came on. And I don't think that

necessarily happens anymore but that was also kind of the dead the tail end of film you know, a celluloid versus what we're doing now. And you've got the unique position to bridge that gap.

And I was kind of interested to know, like, what you were trying to take on House of the Dragon from Game of Thrones and what you were trying to make new. Well, I guess, you know, I came on to season two of House of the Dragon. So the link between Game of Thrones and House of Dragon really was Fabian Wagner, you know, because Fabian had obviously Battle of the Bastards

and had done brilliant work on season eight of House of the Dragon and then created the Look for House of the Dragon. So that's the continuum there. I came in season two and just tried to continue that. But like there is, I guess there is a legacy like Jonathan Freeman who's a good friend of mine who had shot a lot of a house of Game of Thrones as well. They see they're interchained.

Yeah. You know, like I spoke with him before coming on to House of the Dragon, you know. And like in he, you know, we, we talked about like the style of the world. And there is like technology develops, you know, cameras develop, lighting develops, all of that stuff. And stylistically, like what people. like develops as well. It's imperceptible over a period of 10 years or whatever, but it does change. So I guess what you're doing is you're trying to keep a continuum with what's gone before while also remaining current, you know? And that's what you try to do, whether or not

we achieve it. It's for other people to judge, but that's certainly what you're trying to do. Yeah. You guys changed formats, right, from season one to two and three. Yeah. So the reason for that was season one was shot so so the there's two units and each unit shot on Alexa 65 had the A camera was

Alexa 65 and then the other cameras were standard Alexa 35 Alexa it was before the actual 35 and what I came on at the start of season two Post said it had given them a lot of issues

the grade was an issue I mean, I have to say I thought season one looked spectacular. So, but I think there was a lot of work and a lot of, they wanted to avoid a lot of the problems that they had working between those two different, quite different chips, basically. Well, yeah. So the electric. Three chips versus one. Well, exactly, exactly. So, so that was at exactly the time the Alexa 35 had just become a.

available. We tested it and we thought it was, we just thought the dynamic rain, which was spectacular. You know, it's a world lit primarily by fire, daylight and fire. And the way it retained detail and flame and the way it worked in low light, like much, much superior to previous iterations of the Alexa, we thought this was the sensor we wanted to be working with, this the camera we wanted to be working with. But it was in large format. So we liked what, what Labian and the other DPs had done on season one with the bucket and, you know, the shallow depth, the focus and all that. And we were trying to think, well, how can we achieve that on a, on the Alexa 35? So we decided to go anamorphic in order to just have the bucket not be sort of standard 35-mill bucket, you know?

Yeah. So that was a reason for changing format. is the 265 the A35's insert? So the 265 is not the same chip as the... It's the old chip. It's the old chip. Yeah. So we thought about that for season...

Well, I forgot I've lost sight of what the season were in there. So season three, we looked at that at the start of season three and considered it. But we felt like, you know, there's myself, Alejandro and Vanya who had sort of and so we had done seasons two and we're going into season three and we all really liked the Alexa 35

and didn't see a compelling reason to change you know because we just like you know because of the environments we were working in a lot of darkness candlelight flame and then high contrast day exterior at times and because you're shooting in you know, England and Wales, where days can be, you know, you're shooting a scene in a day that can have

blindingly high contrast in the morning and then be completely overcast and flat in the afternoon. And we found that what the Alexa 35, the room you had in the grade to bridge those gaps, we hadn't sort of seen another camera that could do it as well. So we didn't see the need to change. we probably, I'm going into season four now, and we probably won't change for that either, although we will test other formats and cameras. Yeah.

The thing that, this is kind of a question from the internet more than anything, but you've got, with the A35, you've got basically, for all intents of purposes, unlimited dynamic range. I mean, it's just, you know,

it goes into space. How do you avoid, um, relying on, on that. Obviously, it's nice to have, like you're saying, with flames and whatnot, you get to retain that detail. But how do you avoid just being like, well, you point the camera and it, it's, it resolves. You know, I think there's a lot of people point at like game of thrower, sorry, Lord of the Rings. And they're like, why doesn't night look like that? And you're like, well,

because they had to do it like that, but now we don't. Yeah, I mean, like, I guess contrast is the key, right? So like we the style of the show which was set on Game of Thrones is to light through windows so we you know we put 20Ks through windows a lot you know and and we will light a set

with 120K at times you find a sweet spot you let it bang into the room so you have like very high contrast in the room where the lights hitting something it's bright and where it falls off it goes completely dark, you know. And so we do, I think we do get rich blacks.

We do get sort of sharp contrasty highlights. And that's sort of the lighting style of the show. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's the technique. Yeah. Well, it was more just kind of the thought of, I guess it's a larger thought about just the, you know, you've had an illustrious career thus far. You've seen the kind of trends and technology change over the years. And I guess that made me the more focused question is, like, has any of that changed the way, like, is there anything that you'd go back and be like, I still want to shoot things like I did in the 90s?

Or do you prefer it now? I don't think so. I prefer it now. Like, I do. Like, I prefer, like, LED has become, like, I know a lot of, a lot of DPs aren't. very easy about LED, but I find it really liberating that you can have such color control and, you know, the newer LED fixtures are, they're superb. You know, like, I still prefer Tonkson in any given situation and I will still primarily like a scene with tungsten, but the ability

of LED to, you know, create fill or put some light in the background or like do those little things has made life a lot easier than it used to be. So I prefer it now. I prefer, you know, yeah, what I do now is so much easier than what DPs 15, 20 years ago had to do and before the advent of digital, you know, on film. Like, like what the masters were doing, you know, like Conrad Hall was doing in the 1960s, like to have that. that absolute control of the medium. I'm not sure that many people could do that now. You know, like we get results that come close to that now.

Some people get them that are as good and better, but it's much easier, you know. Yeah. Well, and I think you bring up a good point too, which is like it's easy to go, well, why doesn't stuff look like Jurassic Park and Indiana Jones? And you're like, well, because that's Steven Spielberg, asshole. Like, we're not, we're not him. You know, there is a certain level of institutional knowledge that comes with those people that we can't all know. Like how would we?

They didn't teach. They didn't have a five series masterclass on exactly what they do. Yeah. But again, it's like it comes down to taste because, you know, some people love that and then some people find it all fashion. Like my kids look at old stuff and they're like, why doesn't it? You know, but this is, this is brilliant. And like one of the, one of the big criticisms that we get on, on House of Dragon is like, like, why is stuff like, why is there so focus? Why isn't stuff like totally sharp?

You know, because some people like a really sharp digital look. And for me, that's, well, just doesn't suit my sensibility, you know? So it's all about taste. Speaking of taste, what do you, this would be a good like A, B thing. What have you seen recently that you enjoy versus like one of your old favorites? I go, you see, I go back to the old favorites a lot, you know? Like, what am I, like, at the moment I'm watching beef. Oh, yeah.

I think it's fantastic. Beyond that, you know, like what's the like? last, like the last film that I really like was like really blown away by is one battle after another. I thought that was just absolutely amazing piece of work. But like for my, like, okay, so when I'm watching stuff, I probably do go back to all this stuff. Like the last thing I watched a few days ago was a film called Afram, which is a Romanian film set in, it's like a Western set in. 1830s

Romania from, but it's like the film is 15 or 20 years old you know so yeah I don't

I do watch current stuff but I do sort of just for pleasure I probably don't watch a lot of TV I watch old movies older movies

you know the one for me was that I keep going back to just like thinking like oh shit that's that's again the old

master thing is the conformist. Yeah, I mean, the camera movement alone in that film, I was like, I didn't know you could do that back then. I thought we were special now. We are not. No, we're not. And you do, in terms of, yeah, like, you know,

like my, I was lucky enough actually to meet Steraro a few years ago. Oh, wow. With an award and had an evening with him. And that was like an amazing experience. And, you know, but you go back and look at what. what he was doing or what like Vilmush was doing, you know. And you're just like, all we're really doing is like sampling what they did, you know? And our technology is better so we can be more precise and we can be more polished.

But in terms of like the overall creative vision, like these guys were, or, you know, John Alcott or like they were doing. like extraordinary work. They were truly visionary, you know? You know, the fun other side of that was, so at the bar I was Tonyos at, actually the guy who owns it, I didn't know this. I've known that man for three, four years.

You kind of look like him, honestly. And I didn't know he was like a first AC for years. I've only known him as like a, he owns like, used to own like high in cocktail bars. and now this is more of a dive bar, but they show movies, you know, at night, you know,

after baseball is done or whatever, it's movie time. And they put on, um, death race 2000. Dude, the, the,

the 23 year olds behind me are like, you know, I'm just like at the bar chatting with my friends. And they're just like, what the fuck is that? Like, and I was like, that's kill Bill,

dog. Like, and they're like, no, no, there's titty. everywhere and you're like yeah yeah yeah that's what you used to do. I was like I guarantee you they didn't get a permit for none of this.

Yeah. I was going to say I looked like a lot of people you've eaten bars. Yeah, it's the same. I mean, you know, the same claw. But I do find that like I think I'm reaching for, I use that not to peg you with all this, but I reach for this kind of or have. been reaching for this for the past handful of interviews, which is like I'm trying to find the answer to a question that what I call students are trying to figure out, which is like,

why doesn't stuff look like that now? And I think as you're saying, it's taste, like I don't, I don't want to make something that looks like it was from the 60s, but it does seem like the audiences do. And I'm fascinated by that gap. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I can give you the answer to that, you know. No, no, no, I'm not asking for it necessarily. Well, no, I wish I could. But, like, it is, it is interesting to think about that. Like, like, I know, like, when we were doing the grade for season two of Wednesday,

Tim kept saying, could we make you look more 70s? And I didn't quite understand what he meant, but it's probably the same thing, you know? Yeah. Well, and also, this is not a DP question, but I think it does just, speak to a larger societal issue, let's call it, where people are not content with right now. Right now is quite turbulent. And their memories of, you know, because they'll point to it. They're, again, you know, Indiana Jones.

But it's like, yeah, that's one movie. I could point to a hundred other movies that came out in the 70s and 80s that looked like shit. You're picking your favorite. But it's this kind of weird nostalgia for not necessarily the. look of those films, in my opinion, it's just that time where they thought things were more. But I think also, like, it is that thing. And like, this is definitely something I feel that, you know, like when stuff gets too polished, it can be immaculate, but it can be totally insipid, you know. Whereas when there are rough edges, you know, and that's why, like, sometimes, you know, when we're

lighting a set up, you know, the cafe comes to me and go, like, oh, you know, we need to take care. I'm like, don't worry about it. Like, don't worry about it. Like, don't worry about. at that. That's, it all doesn't have to be perfect all the time. Because you know, like the expression of props become the play. Do you know what I mean where you get lost in the weeds and, you know, you start to focus on like correcting things and making things perfect. Sometimes that you can lose the rawness of something, you know? And maybe that's what's, maybe that's what people are hankering for, do you know? Because there were like, if you go and you analyze movies from that time. You can't, like if you

analyze Gordon Willis, you'll find, you'd be like, well, you know, you could improve on that. But could you really? Do you know what I mean? Technically, you could. There was a bump in the track. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, who gives a shit really? That there's a bump in the track or whatever that might be. Do you know what I mean? You know, what we are doing, we're trying to convey emotion. We're trying to evoke

a response, an emotional response by our visuals or, you know, whatever we're presenting to an audience. And if it's a bit rough around the edges, I don't think that's the end of the world. Do you know what I mean? If it's eliciting a response, I'm not trying to say it has to be their response, but a response, you know? And I think that sometimes I do see stuff that's like perfect, but it's like, you know, I don't, doesn't engage me at all emotionally, you know? So maybe that's, maybe that's what's going on in what you talk about. Yeah, my, my theory has been, because a lot of people will coin it as, uh, quote unquote the Netflix look. And I'm like, that's, that's not a thing.

And also no one seems to, I've asked, you know, I got, I put a thread on Reddit, you know, someone tell me what you think this. Show me examples of what you're talking about. I want to see an example. Hundreds of comments, no examples. Everyone just arguing about what that is. And I was like, first of all, it's not a dick tat from Netflix. I mean, you're working on Wednesday is a Netflix show, right?

It is, yeah, yeah. So you tell me, did Netflix come down and say, here's what you have to do at any point? Never. I've never had that note. Like, I've done a few Netflix shows, and I've never, never once has anyone come. It does come actually from production companies, like from execs. So like the people that are between the production and the network, you know, and there are more and more of those, you know, they're the ones you come back, you know,

and the one you usually get is it's too dark. You know, it's too dark. It's like, well, you know, is it? It's the, I think it's in Eric Measershmit's Instagram bio, but he and I talked about it a couple. He's been on the show a couple times, but his thing was, it's not dark, it's rich. Yeah, but also, like, like, what do we say?

Like, are we equating darkness with, like, an absence of information or, do you do you know what, I mean? Like, darkness opens up possibilities for imagination. Do you know what I mean? If you don't know what's in the shadows, isn't that more interesting than fucking shining a light in there and seeing there's nothing there? Do you know? Also, also, I think that overall restriction of information is filmmaking.

Of course it is. It's like off-screen space. It's exactly the same dynamic or like Atmos. Do you know what I mean where you deliberately obscure something or selectively obscure something or maybe not obscure it but make it in some way mysterious so that the person watching the frame, the image can bring some interpretation to it? If it's all didactic, like if it's all like we're just presented, this is the only version of what you see and the same. the only way you can see it. Like, I don't want to see that, really. Yeah. Actually, you know what I mean? It doesn't engage in my interests after a while.

That's a, now that I think about it, because like I said, it's a buddy last night and that film was the idea of the films that all takes place on a 90s children show on a stage. So it's lit and shot like that. So it is pure information all the time. Everything's in the mid-range. There is not a shadow there. And it's perfect. And it's like, see, there you go. there's the

there's a time and a place for that. Of course there is. If that was shot like children of men, people would be like this does not make sense. Yeah, no, of course.

I mean, there's definitely a time and a place for that, but not always, not all the time. And, and you know, oftentimes so like I say,

like Netflix, I've never had a note from anyone at Netflix about anything. But you do get, you do get notes of times. But usually they're not well considered. And if you

take the time to break it down and say, well, what are you, what are you actually trying to say? Right. Oftentimes comes down to taste. It comes down to well, I don't like, I don't like the red light. It's like, yeah, but that's, you're not

the director. You're not, you're not the production designer. Do you know what I mean? That's not, it's not for you to make, impose your very particular thing. Do you find that that is basically the job of the DP? I have found that, like, I've used this example, a director, a friend of mine who I've worked for a few times, at one point gave me the note, go find some cool frames. And I just, I nearly blew up. I was like, what do you mean

cool? What is cool? You need to tell me, like, because, you know, documentary, we didn't have, I've, I've now learn to get especially with him, but in general, more pre-production because he's, I was going to say head in the clouds. That is incorrect. His head is just so in the film that he doesn't necessarily think of what I want to do or anything like that or what he wants me to do. But that, to what you're talking about, that idea of the role of the DP just does seem to be trying to interpret at someone else's language to enact the vision. It definitely is because like we're not, we're not really in the business of reportage.

Do you know what I mean? It's not trying to take like a snapshot of something and say this is the only way you can interpret it. Do you know what I mean? Like you are like the director brings something like everybody, the writer brings something, the director brings something else. The DP should bring something else, right?

That something shouldn't be. contrary to what the director and the DP or the director and the writer want. Do you know what I mean? You should be working in, like, in Ulyssin with them and you should be, but you should be able to expand stuff and make it better, you know?

Any idea can be expanded upon and made better. Like, if you're in conflict with what the writer and the director want, then you're not doing your job at all, right? But you need, you need to be bringing something. You need to have some degree of autonomy to sort of take what they're telling you and interpret it and then develop upon it. Because otherwise

your life would be intolerable. If you're just following a dictat like a set pattern day after day, you know, I guess it's a job but you know it's probably not produce the best work. Not and certainly not creatively fulfilling. Although I have found that a lot of times I find that type of work almost like a mild vacation, maybe commercials. I'm sure you've done a lot of commercials where it's like it has to look this specific way

and you just go, all right, cool. I'm coloring by numbers today. Of course. And, you know, sometimes week 20 of a job, you are like, just tell me what you want. Do you know? Yeah, yeah. But for the most part, but like I'm obviously speaking in general. terms. And in general, like, what, what do you want to be doing is you want to be contributing

something, you know, you do for the project and for your own, you know, creative satisfaction. Yeah. This is a mild deviation, but I did want to ask about something we were kind of talking about earlier, but you set the look for the show for House of the Dragon specifically. But there is a lot of obviously the effects where people are flying on mythical creatures and shit. I did see the behind the scene stuff of like the gimbal that you put the actors on and the half volume sort of situation and all that. Very cool technology.

But also, how are you getting that vision of what you're shooting in the scenes that are of, let's call it, reality, and matching that to the VFX. So the process is that, you know, the director works with the VFX department, specifically Daddy Onerson, who's the VFX supervisor on the show, and they plot the shots that they, with the showrunner Ryan,

and they plot the shots that they want for a particular sequence. And they're usually quite specific. So what they'll do is they'll then create a previs, you know, like an animated previs. And that then becomes the template we work to. You know, what we're trying to do is are trying to have the camera move through space while the dragons are moving through space while the actors are performing, you know. But obviously you can't shoot that in reality. So it's created by putting it.

the actors on a gimbal and then using camera movement and the movement of the gimbal a company called Picksmondo create algorithms and what we do is we put the camera on a robotic arm and a combination of the movement of the gimbal and the movement of the camera

creates the illusion of the camera move does that make sense? Yeah But you can also, like, it's one of those things where you can do anything, right? I mean, in any movie, you can do anything. But especially with mystical, that's not right. But in any case, films or shows, and you're put in the sky. I think it's mostly the sky. Whenever we put stuff in the sky that's VFX, you know, we're not hard mounting stuff to planes and stuff like that.

where were your guys as kind of Yeah so very very specifically in that Yeah so so our our sort of Our rule of thumb Right there are no set rules really But what we try to work to for the most part is How would you create this in reality

So we don't want any impossible shots Right? There shouldn't be a shot that would not be physically achievable if you had a real dragon and if you had a drone, for example, right? So you can't have, you know, the camera come from 300 meters away and go up somebody's nostril, right? Because that would not be achievable in reality. So for the most part, what we're trying to do is we're trying to make the stuff close on the actors on the dragons look like the camera's hard mounted to the dragon in some way. So that's the starting point. Or if it's, you know,

an aerial shot, it's like an actual aerial shot. We'd be like, okay, well, we'd need a helicopter and this would be as close it would possibly get. We don't want to create a language that audiences haven't seen before. You know, we want to achieve shots that audiences are familiar with

and that don't throw them, you know, that don't discombobulate them. And then it becomes a technical challenge. How do we achieve that? You know? And the reason for the half volume is it's interactive light really because what we do is we put a blue frustrum behind the character

so the camera is pointing at the character and the blue is moving behind. Right. So they're constantly on blue. So it's not like a proper volume shoot where you've created a background and you're shooting into a background. You're actually shooting into blue.

But the rest of the LED screens are creating the interactive light. So it may be that the camera isn't moving at all, but you want to give the impression that the world is turning, in which case you have the light turning instead. So that creates, and then when you put the background in, you have the background turning, so it appears like the character is turning. So that becomes sort of, it's quite a technical process in prep, but usually we go in and we have the set number of shots to do every day. It's worked out in advance. And usually the final thing

is me figuring out how to execute the lighting on the day. But in terms of the camera movement and stuff, that's all been prepped, it's been approved, we know what it is, and then when we come to physically shoot it, I usually have, you know, 30 minutes or an hour to light the shot, you know, which can be a technical process in itself.

Well, and also, 30 minutes, all right, figure that out fast. But I'm also, interested in, I've spoken to a few people who like, especially the early volume stuff where they talked about like, oh, this is the lighting of the scene. And it's been fascinating to watch how people have realized if and when they need to augment. Because obviously, LED screens only have so much output in terms of just raw lighting, right? Yeah. So it doesn't, you know, on the first Mandalorian, it felt like they were like, well, he's just outside. We're really worried about the

helmet reflecting everything. But are you guys also introducing like moving like traditional units to try to get more in there? We are to an extent, but actually what we're doing mostly is we're darkening the screens. So so so what we do is we'll generally put a sun like a circle at maximum output. And that does have enough. like if you're shooting at a fast enough ISO, you know, you'll generally, you will be able to get like a hard light from the LED screen. And then what we're doing is we're putting in selective black flags effectively on the screens.

So, you know, the black flags are moving around or there's like we're putting grads in. And that's usually what I'm trying to figure out on the day. What the sort of the best way? The other thing is like the wings, the wings of the dragon. Like if they're on the dragon, the wing is creating a shadow on the face. So we have, we create like black, black veils basically rising side by, you know. On the screens themselves. On the screens themselves.

The one on the what would be the sun side, which we figure out, we'll block the sun, release the sun, release it, release it. So you get that flash. you know, on the other side it'll be similar but less, less intense. And then is that if the, if the dragon is moving and the character's moving, we'll track the wings, we'll track the sun. So the sun will go one direction, the wings will go in the other direction, for example. And that's how we do it. Do you find then that the sort of regular like, oh, two people talking, is that a vacation from that type of stuff?

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, like, but there's all, like, like, you're, you're dealing with, you're dealing with, you know, fantastic actors and you want them, you want them to look good. So, like, I take a lot of pride in trying to shoot a good close-up, you know what I mean? Or a good gut, you know what I mean, to try and really, and that doesn't mean always making somebody look good. Like, you know, photography be good. Sometimes it's about making them look bad, but you're trying to, you know, you're trying to tell the story through light to an extent, you know? And so that's always, I actually find that aspect of a really satisfying. I enjoy that a lot, you know.

I get great pleasure in seeing a well-executed close-up. And other people at work as well. I'm like, oh, nice. Are you, now I thought of two questions really fast, together. One, are you a eye light connoisseur? And two, are you a photographer in your free time? Like, yes and yes. You know, like I do like a good eye light.

Yeah, I mean, like, and there is, like, that's the thing that's hardest to execute is, you know, having somebody's eyes sparkle in a dark scene, you know? But we've gotten pretty, we've developed a few things that worked pretty well for that. And yes, I mean, I do, I do take a lot of photographs, yes. Yeah, because the photography, I think this is what brought me to that thought was just the idea of a close-up. most, at least for me, the two versions of photography that I enjoy are, you know, your kind of standard,

well, I almost said Gregory Krudson, that's not standard at all. But, you know, your, what, I'm not facing me. I was going to look at a photo book. The names are not coming to me, but,

I know, Stephen Shore or somebody. I was, thank you. Oh my God, I literally right at the tip of my time on Stephen Shore, that style of street photography, and then also portraiture. Yes. And that's how my brain works cinematographically as well.

Mine too. That is the thing. Like for me, it's, I don't want to say I'm less interested in, but like I get less satisfaction out of shooting midshots. The big, wide,

you know, dramatic, wide shots in sets where you can have dramatic lighting and do all that. Immensely satisfying. and then a good close-up immensely satisfying. The rest of it, of course, you execute as well as you can,

but I don't get the same, I probably don't get the same satisfaction as that, actually. Yeah, those are the key frames, as it were. Yeah, they are, yeah. But especially on TV where like it or not, you know, that's what ends up in the edit. Yeah. If you do people in the room, it'll be the big, wide establishing shot. It's unfair to say this happens all the time but it happens a lot.

Big wide establishing shot, maybe a midshot or two, but generally you're in there quite quickly. Now we don't go super close on House of the Dragon. You know, there are more MCUs than close-ups, but you'll generally find that that's what's on screen a lot. So you want to be executing that well and making the people you're working with look good, you know?

Yeah. Dude, were you a big Doctor Who guy? Not at all, actually. Oh, really? No. That's literally my girlfriend who I've been with for going on eight years. That's how we met was over Doctor Who. And anytime I'm talking to anyone who's roughly, you know, I've interviewed a ton of people who have actually shot the show.

But, you know, you got Matt Smith on the thing. I'm like, that was our guy, you know, when we were in college, like he was our dude. And so it's always like, oh, fuck. He's great. He's great to work with. He's, you know. Yeah. He seems like a fun, dude.

He is pretty. Yeah. Oh, that's the movie you told me to watch. I was looking at my nose. I was like, Afrim, what the hell? Oh, you should see it. It's, yeah. Yeah, but unfortunately, that hour flew by.

I feel like we only got started. But I guess I'll end with sort of a Oh, you know what? Actually, I asked someone this the other day. And I was like, oh, I'm smart. Someone, there was this great film called Only After Dark is Japanese Horror Film. And whoever booked it for me booked the director. And in 270 episodes, I've never interviewed a director.

And it was like the day of, I was like, wait a second. Who am I taught? Because I watched them, you know, I'm taking cinematography notes. And then I was like, oh. And so I blanked and I came up with a good one, which is just, I'm sure, have you been doing like press for Dragon Leg? That's how you ended up here.

You've been doing like a handful of press things? A little bit. Not a huge amount, but yeah, a bit, yeah. The thing that I thought was, I thought it was kind of a lazy question, but now I don't hate it, which is, is there something that you've done on the show or that you want to get out,

like that no one's ever asked? you or that you're like, I want to talk about this thing that I've done. That I've done. On that show specifically. Like this works better when someone's on a big ass press tour and they've been asked the same 17 questions over and over. No. I mean, you know, yeah. See, see, I do this stuff every day.

Do you know what I mean? So I like, as in shoot, I don't see my mistake to it. And then and then sometimes people. They're like, oh my God, that's, like, for example, that video you've seen of the, the gimbal, with the actors on it and the people are like, oh, my God, that's amazing. I'm like, is it? That was Tuesday. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know.

I don't know how best. Oh, you know what? Like, the work we did, the work we did on episode one of season three, the ship battle, and what we did with the Gimble. and what we did with the Gimbals. That was actually, in terms of career achievement or whatever, I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of what we achieved there because it was hard. Like to pull that off in the time we did and the way we did it,

that was really hard. So I would talk about that all day, you know. Yeah. But that's shit. We should have started with that. But you know what? I watch, like doing research for the show and stuff, I had forgotten, oh, I forgot you shot three body problem.

I love that show. I just looked at my notes on my screen and I was like, I didn't even bring that up. You'll have to come back. We'll talk about that. But my memory of looking up the show, I forgot that that whole ship battle scene wasn't the Odyssey. And my brain just went like, oh, yeah, all the crazy ship stuff. That was clearly obvious. I was like, oh, yeah, no, that was the dragon.

a very different approach to what those guys did. You know what I mean? Like, we were all against blue. But, you know, but they were too. I don't know if you saw, I had friends up in Universal City, you know, and so they could see down into the Universal back lot when they were shooting all the boat stuff. It was just in the little pool at Universal. Yeah.

You know, they're doing roughly the same stuff, but you guys had a far more involved, like boats hitting each other and all this stuff. you just had everyone in the water, just static. You know, you're, you know what? You're a better filmmaker than Chris Nolan. Oh my God. What? No, you know, I haven't seen The Odyssey yet.

I will do. I just hold on the time. Oh, you know, it's a great, I was telling a lot of people who, you know, my friends who like, like movies, I'm like movies. I was like, it's probably going to go down as one of the more important films. I wouldn't say it's like,

the best you know it's not going to change the world but certainly audiences have responded you know it got like extended runs in iMacs and stuff I think it's one of those event films where you're like

well you got to it's the Odyssey we don't have IMX in Dublin so you know yeah so I just said like I've been here I'll be in London in November so hopefully there'll be an opportunity to see it there then

brother, I think they're probably going to let it run until like February. They're still making money. I mean, I think it made like $250 million over the past month. Yeah. And it's been out for three months. You know, like people still. It's stuff like that that I think gives me not hope,

but people do want to see movies. You know, the Netflix guy earlier, you know, a few maybe last year or whatever was like, I don't know if people want to see movies. And then now it's like, oh shit, maybe they do. Yeah. They do. Like, there's no question.

You know, we had, yeah, we had like a props. I guess she's like a trainee or certainly a young props person on the show who flew to Manchester on a day off to see it. You know? Yeah. And I'm like, clear play. That's commitment. I can't do that. I've got kids and a family that I need to see on my day off.

but you know what I mean but that's it just shows people do want to see it you know yeah well and to be fair even though you know you didn't shoot the Odyssey that almost

this is just me talking the past handful of again three body problem all this stuff like the the past work you've done over the I don't know last decade has been really enjoyable to watch

and it's been a pleasure to be able to talk to you because I've enjoyed pretty much everything you've shot thank you very much that's very kind and pleasure to talk to you too. It has been good.

Like I have done, you know, I do occasional interviews and stuff, but it's been a lot of fun. Awesome, man. Well, please, if he can, find the time, come back. We can talk about a bunch of other stuff. But, yeah, that hour flew by. So I feel like we really got started. I appreciate your time, brother.

Take it easy. Cheers. Bye-bye. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny Macbillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.