Frame & Reference Podcast - 31: "What Drives Us" DP Jessica Young

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with cinematographer Jessica Young about the Amazon Coda Collection film "What Drives Us." Directed by Dave Grohl, "What Drives Us" follows young bands RadKey and Starcrawler who are taking on the world one town at a time, while also telling stories of the biggest artists in the music industry, recalling the romance and adventure, as well as the insanity and chaos, of their own time on the road. Jessica was the DP on films such as “Two Distant Strangers” & “Stephen Vs. The Game” and for the series “Religion of Sports.” Enjoy the episode! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Jessica Young, the DP, of the documentary What Drives Us, directed by Dave Grohl. The film is a documentary about van life, about, you know, when you get started in a band, that, you know, first couple years or hour long it is, where it's you, the bandmates, and all the gear in a van. And, you know, Dave gets to talk to the biggest rock bands and musicians of all time in this documentary. So you can get it in the CODA collection, which is an Amazon Prime add-on. Prime Video add-on, but you can get a seven-day free trial and watch it. That's how I watched it.

But in any case, because of the subject matter of getting started in a band, you know, those early years, I took the time to ask Jessica a lot of questions about that analogous relationship that I've seen with filmmakers. If you've listened to this podcast at all, you know that I have this thing in my head that I still can't quite articulate very well, where musicians and filmmakers are kind of the same people, the same art form with certain differences. The Venn diagram overlaps heavily, I should say. And so, yeah, I took the time to really ask a lot of questions about that, especially because the documentary kind of leads itself to talk about this, because it's all these huge musicians talking about how they got started and how things have changed it now,

which is the same thing with filmmakers, you know, all the rock bands from the 70s are still all the huge rock bands now. All the great filmmakers from the 70s are still all the great filmmakers now, and something has changed. And so we get to talk about that a lot, and it's awesome. So I'm going to let you dive in here. I absolutely adored this conversation, especially because I'm a drummer myself and have been my entire life before I was even a filmmaker. So, you know, it was exciting to get the chance to talk to someone who's been in the presence of Dave Role. Queens of the Stone Age's best drummer, hot take. Anyway, here is my conversation with Jessica Young. I hope you enjoy.

How did you get started in Cinematop? Was it always something that you were into image making or did you kind of fall into it? Yeah, I didn't really pick up a still camera until my senior year in high school. And that was, you know, on my own, like my mom was taking a lot of photos, family photos and stuff over the years. But there was no formal class like in my school or anything. I just picked it up. And this was, I'm old. So this was like, you know, shoot film, figure it out, drop your film off like at the grocery.

story, you know, who did the processing and made prints for you. And just kind of learned by doing that way. And then it was interesting enough for me to be like, cool, this is interesting. I'm going to go pursue this in college. So I did. And then like two years in, I was getting kind of just, you know, I was, I was getting a little bored with like the still photo process. I was really into like being in the dark room and learning how to print and make black and white prints and the gray scale and all of that but uh i don't know it was just it was kind of like i just needed more and i would i found this filmmaking workshop in new york city that was took place over the summer and it was like you know shoot tri-x reversal on a little air yes you know

get it processed cut it on a flatbed splice it together project it up on the wall see if you can like tell a story with the moving image and you know the moment i had that little camera and my eye in the eyepiece and I pulled the trigger and I saw the flicker and the movement of the film going literally through the gate. I was like, this is it. This is what I was looking back. The still photos that I was doing or the projects I was doing were always a series of pictures that I put together to tell a story, you know? So I think it was sort of, you know, in the cards. I just hadn't found it, you know, the moving picture right away. And then after that workshop in New York, I went to, you know, actual film school in San Francisco where luckily, you know, I had a little

bit of background of college already. So I kind of just moved like straight through the ranks. And I had a very clear vision of like, I want to do cinematography. Tell me everything about that. So like all cinematography classes and directing and then all the other stuff like screenwriting and editing and all that business. But yeah, it was a pretty fast track for cinematography for me. like once I pulled that little trigger on a little air yes yeah yeah yeah go ahead I well I was gonna say I learned on an R-E-Flex and there is something I've tried to articulate this before but it's kind of the same thing as shooting still photos on film or I suppose any like true SLR is that isn't digital because you can

chimp it but like there's that potential you see there's like a lot of stuff happening but you don't know, like, I feel like that's where the excitement comes from is like, you know it's going to happen late, like, offset enjoyment. Something that I've never really enjoyed is just like when I'm doing it for pleasure is like, yep, that's good. Whereas like that flicker is like kinetic, duh, it's kinetic. That's science. Yeah, no, I do think it really, for me at least, I think it really had something to do with the actual movement.

like for me it was the mechanical like movement of the film through the gate it was also I really love those parts of the film where you know like the area S the sorry that's R3 which I eventually graduated to you know when the film comes up to speed those first two seconds of motion and light that happen that are like coming together once it's like you know coming to like the actual exposure and speed of which you are you know wanting to get the film too. I love where there's like those bleed outs and the motion blur like I love like in fact it's still photography I'm definitely heavy more towards the abstract of movement and light and light flares and things that are out of focus more than the stuff that's like so perfect it's in focus but I think it's literally the movement I mean for me it was anyway it was a revelation like and then you know then of course it's the obvious what there's literally make things moving and inside your frame now, shooting 24 frames a second. But that transition from still to moving was like, yeah, that's it.

You know, figure the rest out later, figure out screen direction and composition and editing and juxtaposition later. But for me, it was the initial just clocking of frames. I still have that sort of ping of a rollout stuck in my head. Where you hear it come off the spool, do a little ching. Yep. It's like you're usually sad, but sometimes it's right in the middle of the best take. Oh, darn it.

Did you have any like mentors in college or sort of on topic? Did you have like a band of sorts? Did you have like a group of friends that you did a lot of work with? Yeah, I would say, you know, that really, like a lot of people ask that question in this business film school or no film. School. And for me, like, I really had a great time. I still work to this day with some of the people that I met and, you know, discovered with in film school. I mean, that's, it doesn't always work that way, but I find that it's definitely a catalyst for, you know, coming together, figuring things out together and like, just try. You're in such an experimental phase, I feel like. And granted, maybe it's more, was more experimental in film school. which when it was on film than it maybe is now because you have this immediate response to like exposure and things you're doing right versus things you're doing wrong.

And I think like, you know, when you're just like figuring out how to how to properly expose and create a shot list to tell a story, you know, there's, I don't know, there's a lot to learn from the mistakes of that more so than the things you're always doing, right? But I think regardless, yeah, like finding that sort of crew of people that were also just about your age and figuring it out too and really passionate and excited and willing to push the boundaries you know like that was some of the best some of the best times

that in my life really and like I said like luckily still friends of them many of them today and working with them which has really been fun yeah I lucked out about 10 of my friends from film school which I went to Arizona State so it wasn't like I went to Arizona State. Oh, did you? But not for film when I was doing photography. How funny. Oh, awesome.

Manzanita Hall, baby. Yeah, I was not in Mansey. They put me in Best A because that was like the film, you know, it was like Best Hayden over by that I hop on next to the, what was the theater called? I think I know where you mean. The theater. But anyway, yeah, they had changed those all to the art dorms when I got there. That's funny. Yeah.

So that's where I did like my film photography. and I was doing like a great campus for still photography oh yeah for sure it turned out to be just too hot for me honestly in Arizona and like I said I was like looking for more and like that still photo like goal so like no regrets it definitely needed to happen but and I still have a handful of French from Arizona but not from not as much as I do from my college in San Francisco where I went to like film school yeah so since I've never met anyone else who actually went to ASU on this podcast. Did you have a,

so there's like kind of two ways that I've seen people go to that school. One is they take the whole experience in and are able to manage it. Those people usually get past freshman year. And then there's people who are just so completely gobsmacked by being around 54,000 students and having all that fun, Mill Avenue is right there. You know, there's a lot of things that can distract you. and not be beneficial to your experience. But then on the same time, I for sure would not be where I am today,

were it not for the detours that I took there that gave me the life experience. Yeah, I mean, for me, it was like I grew up in New Jersey, North Jersey, and I was just ready to, like, go out into my own adventure. So it was, like, just far enough away to be far from home and, like, you know, just strike out on my own. I mean, yeah, I guess that's just it. Like, you just have to figure out, nobody's going to handhold you, you know, through the process. Like, yeah, if you just decided to put a seven o'clock math class on your Tuesday, Thursday, Thursday, like, good luck.

Good luck with that. You know, you can make some responsible and very irresponsible decisions. But, you know, I would say, like, my very first, like, photography, like, 101, like, photography 101, like teachers and something. my early art teachers, I really enjoyed them. I think about them a lot. I mean, I'm not in touch, really, but, you know, some of those early influences, they still remain. But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

The big college school in general, you know, I just, it definitely, like, wasn't for me, obviously in the long run because I bailed, but I don't know. It does take a certain sort of, like, discipline, you know, to not get caught. up with all those distractions sure yeah i mean and i lucked out where i figured that discipline out i was given i was given i think film school gave me there gave me the room to not have that discipline at first like i didn't get into the films i got into the film school at USC but USC was like we don't absolutely not you idiot you're not coming into the school school and as you did it the other way they were like come on in bud you're just our type but the film school is like you're not special enough

yet. Yeah, I'd say all of my education was basically very easy to get into, you know, and it was up to me to like apply myself and or, you know, have my discoveries. Yeah. So in that kind of realm of like making your own discoveries, do you see, uh, is, is film school the sort of van life experience for most people, do you think? Or is it, or is there, or is there, a way to do that as a filmmaker outside of that system because I find it increasingly more difficult to see a sort of punk rock indie film path that surrounds you with other creatives to make film no doubt yeah I mean yes it's constantly evolving isn't it I mean bottom line is filmmaking is a it is a collaborative medium and it is it is a collaborative medium and it is

very hands-on. And so if you have the opportunity to physically do, which is a lot easier today than it was, you know, when I went to school, pick up any camera, even your iPhone, which, you know, and apply yourself and tell a story with pictures that are edited or a one-shot, obviously. But, you know, like there's so much, it's so easy to experiment to see if that's something you can do. And, you know, we only learn by doing and you only like do well by doing over and over and over and over and until you figure it out. I would say, you know, film school in general gives you this opportunity to put yourself in the same tiny bubble of other people that are your age, your mentality, and nurturing those relationships as a DP, nurture, you know, what I've learned is or something. And one thing I've learned is, you know, relationships with directors and producers and other DPs, of course, too. But more or less, people that are going to call me for a job are going to be a director, a producer, or, you know, another, another shooter that, you know, needs a second shooter on their day or whatever.

You know, so, like, I forgot where I was going with that. But basically, I mean, long, long story short is you can just be a PA. You can just learn the business like by doing and hopping in there. Like there's no rule that says you have to go to film school or have this formal training. And but it does help you actually do it and learn it. And it's, you know, like give you an assignment. And there's like a follow through. And you are, you know, judged by your peers and your teacher, which, you know, is really valuable.

If you're just like a kid doing a YouTube thing, like. I don't know. Maybe that's another sort of response that happens now that I'm not exactly familiar with because it's more like a young person's game. But like that idea of like likes and by going viral and all of that stuff. Like that's all possible too. So I don't know. I don't know. That's. And I have found everybody's path as a DP is so different. Oh, yeah. Just like talking about the Deacon's podcast when they interview. Every type of filmmaker, you know, it's just becomes even more apparent. Like, yeah, everybody's got their own way to sort of get to where they've been doing. It's really interesting. There's no rules. Yeah. There's, I've now have like three things in my head.

This is great. The first one being a lot of people, you said earlier, you know, pick up your cell phone. And I've seen that advice given a lot. And I've seen a lot of pushback to that advice because I, I guess the thought is that no one will take me seriously if I shoot something with a cell phone or it won't look professional and therefore people won't, I guess, yeah, take me seriously or whatever or weigh the contents on their merit because there's this filter, I suppose, of amateurness.

Yes, yes. Do you have a thought on that? Certainly. I'm more or less speaking of that idea as like a very young person who's interested in storytelling, being able to have a tool that is very easy to experiment with. And I'm talking about like my daughter's age. She's like she'll be 10 in a month. You know, like if she wants to do a fun, spoof thing with her friends, like what a way to

learn. I mean, there was no way that we could do that when I was a kid unless maybe your parents had a super eight camera or something like along those lines. And even then it was, you know, a little more difficult. Or you could do like the Cohen brothers used to do. And they would be like, like, shoot like the pirate and then shoot the other guy and coming at him and then cut and shoot again. You know, and like edit on the film itself. So they didn't have to cut, you know, chop it and slice it up.

Yeah. But I will say that should I hold for the plane? In Santa Monica Airport, is it okay? Yeah, I am also under that flight path. Right, right. So, yeah. But I do, I do hear what you're saying, and it's totally valid point. Like, even now, I've been at this 20 years, and I now will really consider taking projects

based on how I think the production is going to finish them, you know. Is it going to be worth my time and energy? And it's, you know, some projects that flood sweat and tears. I mean, they're not all easy. Certainly some of the longer, like, documentaries. projects where it's a small crew and there's a lot on you and you're doing literally the heavy lifting at times and the perseverance of that like you know you're you're dedicating your life to something regardless even if it's a commercial but more if it's like a long term like narrative

or something like that um you want to know that your efforts are going to be presented in the best possible light literally like like color finishing you know are they going to push it out to to festivals what is what is the final like resting place for the for the for the piece you're working on is it at netflix is it amazon like whatever um this is the big screen maybe maybe not anymore um is it the coda collection yeah right nice transition um exactly so you just i i hear that because you want to basically know that you'll be taken care of in the end you know but in the beginning if you're figuring out if this is something that you're interested in I feel like there's so many ways to like cut your teeth a little easier

than it was when you know you had to go get a film camera and you had to like you know find a facility and it costs a lot of money and that you had to wait and turn it around and you needed like funding and nowadays it just seems like if you got a real passionate story to tell like you can pick up a camera and tell it you know some some of it's forgivable certainly if it's a powerful enough like topic or message like black lives matter or or some somebody in your community that needs like to be uplifted and be you know like that kind of thing it's not it's not necessarily filmmaking but it's still storytelling and I think, like, it's so much easier these days to, like, tell the story.

Yeah. Now I have a guy cutting his... Cutting trees or something. Honestly, your sound... It's okay. Your noise suppression is doing pretty well. Good. Okay. I've noticed Zoom does a decent job there, but...

So don't, yeah, I'll let you know if it gets too fucky. But I think, I think I 100% agree with you. Like, that's how people should start. I think there is, I've had this. discussion before, but there seems to be a lack of sort of not only film history knowledge. Certainly, I was not too well-versed in film history. I just wanted to get to making it when I was younger. But I think nowadays, especially like when you were saying, talking about using film

in film school and now how it's different, I think I had Maria Rushi on, and she's an adjunct professor, professor at Tisch in New York. and she was saying that the students don't basically have, I could be putting words in mouth, but I'm pretty sure she was saying, like the students don't have the patience to learn all the steps it used to take to understand why this thing now is, you know,

why they have it good. And also how that older stuff informs the new technologies and methods. Agreed. I mean, I do, I feel super grateful that I was able to learn on film and you know can apply that discipline to the work now it is true there's definitely something to be said about that yes and not just the the wanting and the waiting and the experiment you know experimenting and like the success and the failures and learning mostly from the failures but the um a little bit of a little bit of the classics you know studying the

Classics really helps. Like when I was a kid, or I would say when I was at that phase where I was in between photography and motion pictures sort of waiting to go to film school, I would go to the video store. Yep, the video store and get like three or four movies and go home and stay up all night and watch them all one after another. And I have these like, I have like composition notebooks just filled with my notes or observations. Like I like dug them up a little while. maybe like two years ago and I kind of threw half of them away but I pulled out a couple pages just because like it was just interesting to see like what I thought about things like like silly stuff like observing how a wide angle lens like that when it moves up to a person like gives you a certain feeling or something you know what I mean like I definitely um studied that way too like and there's no reason why you can't like you need some formal formal invitation to go to like some film studies program i guess it's better to have like some uh person kind of pointing things out to you or making you notice things about editing or compositionally how things are cut together and why

and why that makes a difference and stuff but well yeah i think uh i think the taste maker has um is severely undervalued these days and certainly you know have you don't know what you don't know so having someone point out like oh this is what you should be looking for okay great but i do also think that is something you sort of tacitly brought up which was you couldn't look up trailers you would just go to the movie store and be like that cover looks interesting the same way you go crate digging you know oh this record looks interesting i'm just going to buy it purely based on the on the cover or maybe the you know the insert or whatever right and i think that experimented Again, this is going back into the psychology thing because I've been fascinated about this for a few years now, is gone because it's too easy now to make an informed decision.

It's too easy to look up the best camera or whatever, you know, or just buying someone's, you know, oh, I heard I should get into the Dead Kennedys. Let me just look up their 20th century classics, greatest hits album and not get the other things in there that like inform who they were at the time or anything like that. yes it's true it's a very good point i feel like there is there is definitely a discipline that that is lost i remember very very clearly like that first sort of feature film that um you know was not on film and a sort of inexperienced director you know making decisions to just keep rolling and rolling and like there there there was there was there's a serious to the old school because you couldn't wait you couldn't waste as much you know I mean it makes it makes like documentaries and stuff like that kind of platform a lot easier

when you can just sort of keep rolling and rolling until they say that thing you need them to say or they move across the room and hit that light just perfectly and that's a little clip that's going to be pulled out of that two straight minutes of a shot you know yeah but you used to have to think really critically. You know, I remember what I used to teach a music video class at my alma mater in San Francisco for a little while, a couple of years. And one of my assignments was to take a hundred foot daylight spool, which is two and a half minutes, for those of you out there, two and a half minutes of film. And I would ask them to like, you know, to basically create a creative story on that 100 feet, you know, without editing.

editing, preferably without editing. And that was always a tricky one for those kids under me. I had a good, good project with that one that was my assignment when I was in film school. But not every, you know, not because I took it really seriously, but like every little frame count and I was shooting out of Bullex. So I was like rewinding and like double exposing again and like it was all very calculated. But the, you know, the kids, the kids today. I think had a little more difficulty with that concept of, you know, the challenge of how do I construct that? How do I craft that? How do I tell a story without cutting the film?

Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, you can stop start, obviously. What I was going to say is I think the main thing, too, isn't that like kids today are stupid. It's just that like, you can see. It's a way of learning. Yeah. And you can see like, oh, this is easier. Why are you making this more difficult and it's very, shit, you could not tell me to slow the fuck down when I was in my early 20s if you paid me. You know, I was just, I was very, you know, got to go. Um, but there is so much value in the discipline of anything, let alone filmmaking. It's true. It's true. You know, it makes everybody think a little harder about what they're doing, you know. Um, so Radkey has this,

experience in the film where they were saying that they like their first show was basically subbing for who was it again the those like incubus or somebody or somebody yeah or bonefish oh yeah that's right

and so they were like oh this is the best and that was their first experience and then they go to play for five people did you ever have like maybe not like something that drastic but do you remember like your first like oh shit this is this is the thing that I've been looking for out of my art like that?

Huh. Yeah, good question. You know, I do so much stuff. Sometimes it's hard to retain it all. Sure. You know, maybe shooting the Rolling Stones at the Coachella, that was the desert trip, when it was like all those greats, like McCartney and, you know,

Young and Bob Dylan and Pink Floyd, I should say Roger Waters, coming off this day, after Rolling Stones felt really awesome. I do remember that, like, yeah, you know, but then there's times where it's varied, it's very, like the film, Two Distance Strangers, which won the short film Oscar this year, there was this one particular shot that was basically a one shot between two characters where I had to operate almost these like swish pans like the directors didn't want this first interaction between the police officer and our main character to edit until there was like an actual until he had him on the ground basically

and until there was like that altercation. And so the crafting of that, that one shot, which probably is, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. I don't know how long it actually is, to be honest, maybe it's minute long. But like the execution of that gave me another kind of high. Like, you know, we did it. It took eight days.

They used the eighth one. um i don't know it's like it comes in like these little small glimpses you know and then sometimes like you tell a story that's just so personal and affected and emotional and poignant that that brings you to tears and that makes you feel so proud too to have just you know and privileged to have like been in the room listening to this person speak so i don't know it's like these small little steps i don't know if there's ever has ever been this one huge moment of that but it's culmination culmination of little steps

and you just keep climbing by the way I don't know if you keep listening out there it's yeah oh yeah I've you just keep climbing even when you reach the pinnacle and it feels like a great plateau don't get stuck there because there's more steps to climb just keep going the number of DPs have said like oh you're only as good as your last gig or like you know

the one you're doing I think it's the one you're doing at that moment and nobody knows about yet it's that one it's like yes it feels great to be recognized there have been times in my life where I'm like

this is this is it I got upset don't fool yourself it's like it's just it's a blip on the map of your whole big life and all the stories you're going to tell you know

well in the film I can't remember who says it but someone says that the reward has to be the experience and I feel like in filmmaking that is true because people you know everyone always says like you it's a grind you know you're going to do 14 hour days whatever you have to love it but there's no you don't get to experience that connection that you do with live music until the film comes out if it comes out um true can you draw any parallels there between because I think about the way

music and film are are similar art forms a lot I grew up as a drummer, so editing came pretty easy to me. But that idea of, I mean, half the documentary is them talking about how, you know, live music is a drug that the van is sort of getting you ready for. And I'm wondering what you think that kind of analogy or analogous experience is in filmmaking. Yeah. I guess it's when the thing comes out, right? Because so much, like you as a shooter, as a DP cinematographer, you are attached to the project for a short time,

the middle part of its life. Right. You're a production. You get in there, you do the work. Sometimes you come back and get to color the work. But it's usually not, you don't have a whole lot of say when it comes to how it's edited, how it's going through post and how it's going to like reach ultimately, hopefully the masses, you know? So I guess it's that. That's the similar moment to like

performing live, I guess, is when it comes out and there it is for all to see, you know. It's a very proud moment. I wouldn't say that's the drug of it. Like that's not the end all, be all. I feel like sometimes just the doing and execution of the day is the thing that drives me. But definitely the reward is when it's completed. And it's out there and reaching people. Definitely at this stage 20 years in, like I was saying earlier, you know, you want the thing that you're committed to doing to actually reach people. you know like more and more people every time and I think maybe that's it like it's eyes on me

not necessarily me but my work and as the artist as the musician that certainly on a big band that can fill an arena that feeling of eyes on me must be like profound I mean it is it is something I feel so much sympathy for of this last COVID year like year and a half now most but the loss of that i can't even imagine not just the people working behind the seeds because like them too but the performer themselves like it's got to be a feeling that's withdrawal similar yes i mean that feeling of a thousand 10 000 50 000 people all at once they're singing your song back to you they're literally dancing bobbing in a crowd also there's just something that happens I think in a live music experience you know I guess you could relate it to film too in a way where you've got like everybody's working towards this one goal which is not to say that in live music that's like a preemptive thought no doubt I mean everybody's just enjoying themselves but the collective of the crowd combined with the music combined with the light shows or whatever you know becomes this like little organization

of a thing all in all of its own you know and in filmmaking and certainly a narrative filmmaking I could say I could stretch to say that it's maybe similar in that everybody's working towards this one goal this one shot you've got you know you've got your camera operators and and the focus pullers and the dolly grips and actors and everybody's all the everybody behind the scenes that have already done the lighting and the art direction you know like everybody's like working together towards this one thing. And that is a really powerful, like, feeling when it happens. It makes you feel really proud of the thing you're doing, but also, like, it just makes you feel like you're part of something. And I mean, I can't speak for everybody, like, down to the PA who's

locking it up or, or, you know, that electrician that can actually sit down now while you're doing the take. It's like, it does make you feel just. better about what you're doing it makes you feel like you know you have a you have a stronger attachment purpose yeah you know and I think to it sort of this is gonna be weird but like diffuses the narcissism I think being a lead singer takes a special type of person to want to stay you know girl is famous for being incredibly humble or nice at least And I think that takes a special type of mentality to maintain when you can move thousands,

tens of thousands of people with your voice and get them all to repeat words that you manifested out of your head. I think when you're on a film set, it's much more like, that's a great product. Shout out to us. Versus like, it's me, you know. Sure. Yeah. Yes.

But can you imagine the feeling of that going away? Oh, yeah. No, it's. You know, like, I've certainly been on stage. No, I can't. I've been in the pit of stage. I've been close as you could get to be on stage during a huge rock show, but they're not, yeah. They're not looking at you.

It's not directed at me. I can't imagine the feeling of like what that feels like anyway, let alone the, like, the gap of missing it. It's heavy. Yeah, I shot concerts. back at ASU would have bands come through and do concerts. And so I was their photographer for like four years. And it was interesting to see, like, especially like the pre-show rituals, but also the post-show who was like riding the high and who was,

it was just another day for and all that kind of stuff. It was very interesting personalities. I wanted to ask, I think Flea mentions that there's all these big, all the big rock bands are still the same bands that were in the 60s, 70s, 80s, or 80s, 90s, let's say. And I feel like film has kind of followed that same trend where, you know, we still wait to see Spielberg films. We still wait to see Fincher films. We still, in some cases, wait to see Scorsese films. I only speak an analogies come to find out. Is there a sort of similar trend that you've seen where like the ladder was kind of brought up behind film from

the 70s to the 90s kind of and now it's like different somehow maybe maybe because you had to wait there weren't as many right there weren't as many films being just produced and there were maybe even less opportunities to see them you you know your cinemaplex kind of ruled the world like you what was playing that day that weekend um people like waited and got excited for things there was like a buzz but it wasn't online and it wasn't it was sort of maybe way more word of mouth um yeah that's definitely altered with this whole basically going straight to streaming thing i mean it used to be you had to you were you were given what was available you know what i mean based on where you were, like geographically,

and now you get anything you want, you know, at any time almost. Maybe you got to wait a little bit. And when it comes to like, you know, like when I was in very early days of film school and just that time, you know, indie film was a big, it was kind of a big deal. Like all of a sudden, it was like, this is a path that you could make a very independent production

and removed from the big, the big giant production, companies and still reach people and still sell your film and not only that get a lot of people to see it um i don't know it's it's been an amalgam of of of change i think everybody's still adapting with even even now even trying to keep up you know um and maybe maybe that can go all the way down to like just pinpointing like certain directors certainly there's the ones that are like still carrying you know the theater experience which is really fading and it's sad to see but um yeah uh i will say i i think in a weird way i think everyone being inside is actually going to be in that positive for the theater experience because i've gone to see a

handful of films once i was you know able to and uh and after getting the fucking that guy but um every time i like all the seats are full it's really hard to like i mean this is you know century city mall so of course people but like it's a it's a very specific uh uh we're jones in out there case like people that like to really sit in a dark theater and watch something on the big screen something that's concise something that's 90 minutes maybe two hours you know you ingest it digest it move on it's not this like bingeworthy thing thing where you're going to stay up because should we do one more episode, you know. Right.

Or being able to pause. Yeah, right. Yeah, no pause. Like, oh, no, you got a phone call. You bet, well, movie's going to keep playing. Oh, you got to go to the bathroom real quick. What I miss. What I miss.

Yeah, yeah. You're going to sort of figure out the best time to exit. Yeah, I still love going to the movies so much. I've had the opposite experience. Every time I've gone to a movie lately, it's been empty. oh really place to myself yes but maybe you got to check out century city i like i like to go like the middle of the day where nobody else is in there and i also like to see like you know i haven't been into the marvel movies or anything so i'm like we usually seeing something a little

more obscure to be fair i did go and see like suicide squad and stuff so there was uh it's gonna be Yeah. Yeah. Yes. There was another, where am I going? Oh, yeah, everyone talking about like, it's funny to hear all these metal and rock guides talk about how people like Little Richard inspired them or stuff like that, which is not something you would immediately think.

Do you have in your life like kind of odd inspirations that have carried forward into your work that maybe aren't so exactly what you currently do? well I I for sure have a lot of still photo like that never stopped you can usually tell how excited I am about a project that it's upcoming as when in how quickly I put together a lookbook and which is the process that I really love to do especially when I'm excited about the project and those are often, you know, photographers works or, you know, painters. So like that, those influences and my increasing, I've been increasing my art book collection now, like for a long time now. So like digging into those and finding inspiration over and over again has been really cool.

Also, I've just been noticing, and maybe it was this quiet year we just sort of had and came out of, but noticing that myself going back, folding back over on myself and my own sort of like experimental works as like film, like, because I really did love that aspect of filmmaking too with learning like about experimental film and different processes and visuals that you can get like with the film process. now I'm sort of translating them to how can I do that digitally. But still some of those like early ideas that I was having that I definitely put aside because it's like you're in your 20s and you're out of film school and you just got to work. You got to go, got to go. You know, you don't like, let me work on my art. It's like, let me get a job so I can pay the rent. I am folding back over on some of those ideas, which has been really cool.

Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say, have you gotten into, you know, color, I don't know about your computer situation necessarily because that's definitely a factor. But have you gotten into sort of testing out the color correction waters, you know, like DaVinci Resolve is free and you can test a lot? Because that's definitely something I had to start doing was I just tell clients right off. And obviously I'm doing client work. I'm not like narrative. It might be a different story. But just telling him right off the bat, like, and I will color correct it.

just to make sure it looks exactly the way that I want. Good for you. Because the film, now with digital cameras, especially, log is not the look. You know, what you shot in your head and what you had maybe on the monitor could be drastically different on the screen. Yes.

Yes, I mean, I've been, you know, I've been moved to tears sometimes by the finishing works of some projects that I haven't been able to have my hands back into, for sure. Or not, maybe not tears, but just like this slouching into the seat. I can't look. They relit the whole thing with windows and whatever. Or it just went the wrong way.

You know, like you said earlier, it's the tastemaker. And I think that really is what a colorist is, you know. Like, there's a color corrector. I mean, it's called color correction. And that's, like, one way to think about it. Yes, like balance, contrast. in color but I like to think about it like a lot less than I don't like to use the word correction at all you know what I mean like let's remove that from the equation I haven't

personally got into it that much I always said that I will and I said that I end up not having time I do think like if there's a plate if there's a time God forbid and like I can't actually physically do this job because it is very physical. like experience being certainly a documentary filmmaker maybe less now on the narrative side of things you're a little more taken care of as a camera but uh yes i mean i want to i want to but that's part of like going back to like making the look book and being able to share that with people and like not just in the production phase but in the post phase too like this is my intention um this this This is like where I'd like to see it go.

And nowadays, we have this great technology on the monitors, you know, put it in a little SD card and take a frame grab and, you know, take that home with you, tweak that. And so tweaking stills, I've started to do a lot more, which is good. And it's a good way to just send that along down the pipes to the people that are going to be having their hands in it for the next few months, even a year that it takes to edit a project. And then also just, you know, having a firm like grasp in the, to produce the production aspect, like just to know when things are coming down the line and trying to really make yourself available, you know, to be there for the color correction or to be there

for any input and give notes. These days, it's even easier to just communicate with a colorist not in the same room, although I prefer to be in the same room. Yeah. because just it literally just the beginning part of like when you're just twisting the knobs like and you're changing the scales and you're moving things around and like you don't always know exactly where it should be but when you see it you know it yes and that's something you just you don't you can't get uh with a frame i o app and you're just giving notes you know like back in the

certainly back in the music video days you know like our our standard MO was to get in there work with the colorist gives you like three wildly different looks maybe more and like you know you kind of add the taste makers move through those looks tweak them combine them find it you know I mean sometimes there's stuff that's better than my intention sometimes yeah well and the nice thing too is speaking of you know tweaking stills just like nowadays especially if you're going to tweak one of those stills like I said in resolve you can kick out a lot and give it to the colorist to be like, this is where I'm headed, you know, feel free, you know. Exactly. And the more you can streamline that like the conversation, the digital conversation

between the DIT and like post-production, the better. I mean, you know, if that person is near and dear to you, it only helps serve your vision. You know what I mean? Yeah. So talk to me about shooting the interviews for I'm assuming you mostly just did like the interviews and then the handful of in van uh shots yeah but um so talk to me about like your camera setups and more specifically how you decided on angles because uh I'm I've recently been having shot a lot more interviews I'm becoming more and more fascinated with non-standard framing finding those shots I think you ran three cameras for this film yep so Basically, you know, going into this movie, we knew it was just going to be like a talking head plus archival project, you know, and I've done Dave Grohl's films and projects in the past and we've had like, you know, more musical performances and or more just like structure put on that.

But we knew that this one was just going to be talking heads pretty much and the archival that they were going to be gathering. So my approach was really just sort of came amongst that sort of punk rock ethos of where those kids were where they're climbing into vans, you know, and just like cruising across the world and getting it done. It was like, cool, let's take a punk rock, punk rock approach to the framing of this. So like a little extra headroom, like finding sort of off frame. also being like not afraid to grab a little something in the foreground almost like and it's a stretch of course but you have to think about these things as the cinematographer like how it relates to the content of the film and so my thought was you know how does it feel when you're crammed inside a van with your bandmates you know you might be pressed up against the window along the

wall and so like let's put the camera like along the edge of the amp that's in the studio and you know make it a little weird. Like I kept wanting to make it a little more weird. And it's not like you can do that for every movie. Sometimes it's completely inappropriate to base on the subject matter. But because of this was literally about kids cramming in a van with their musician friends and figuring it out, I didn't want to be too precious about this like picture perfect framing where I might actually care about that for some other project. but this one um this it made it made sense yeah um and also then the b camera you know similarly

i wanted it to sometimes feel like a little too close like a little you're kind of like you're like right up you're like right yeah like you're right up in this or you just got a straight up in the ear profile because i don't know i just felt like because i knew all the rules like let's break them And then a third camera was just kind of our, kind of almost like our behind the scenes of it. Dave, you know, he's on camera plenty. Oh, right. When he, when he totally, I completely forgot that like you do see a bunch of behind the scenes stuff. Yeah.

I was so into it. I completely forgot something has to film that. Yeah. So it was never like this like, cool, let's like shoot a two person conversation, you know, but. Also, Dave, like, he doesn't want to be the center of attention when he's in the room with, like, the edge or flea. You know what I mean? Like, he wants to be just the guy behind the kid, you know, he's asking the question. So, but everybody loves Dave and you need to incorporate him, like, into the film.

Sure. It's just sort of matter of fact. So we always had a third camera basically on Dave, but exposing the bones of production and not being, not worrying about like, cool, I could see the sea stand or the. the diffusion frame or whatever, it was more like just catching his follow-up question occasionally or, you know, just him laughing at it, you know, and he never wants anything to be really formal, you know, he's really past that in his life. He just wants to show up and have a good time. And so, you know, we also knew because of all the archival footage, which is like very handy cam, usually, or just like concert cam stuff. You know,

wanted the third camera to be roving and handheld and just kind of like, you know, be able to ebb and flow with all of that archival stuff. So it's like these two sort of lockoffs that are a little bit quirky, you know, and then this third that was just sort of our thread, you know? Yeah. Was there a sort of go-to lighting package for all these interviews or they all kind of like you showed up with some stuff and figured it out. Like was there a most lit versus a least lit in the sense of putting up stuff, you know? Definitely. I mean, we pretty much just travel with like, probably I would say like what you would consider a two ton

grid package with, you know, just the real basic stuff, sky panels, an HMI, you know, like a 1200 or a 1.8K, quasar tubes, you know, stuff where like just sort of standard. like lighting units and you know just kept it naturalistic you know once we sort of walk into the location which we very rarely got to see a picture of like sometimes we would get still photos of the location not like the owner would send or if it was like an Airbnb type place you could look online and see images but for the most part you know you just sort of walk into the location blind find an opportunity that has an interesting composition or something happening with the lighting that you know that like okay I'm going to have to

sustain this at least one hour conversation you know consistent lighting so controlling like windows or and or finding a good spot for a key light that will just like sort of you know stay there and not change too much um still relatively with looking good throughout that hour or hour and a half um yeah pretty pretty simple like honestly like it didn't Like I said, like this was not the subject matter to be, like, precious about, like, you know, we weren't, like, trying to make them all the same. And, you know, we weren't, every location was going to be different. So, you know, there was, like, one spot, I think I pulled off an Applebox and one quasar tube, you know, like a C-Stand. But then there'd be others where, you know, we built, like, you know, had just a space to make a big, beautiful soft white booklight, you know, with bouncing in a.

1.8k into some bead board with a big 8-by diffusion, you know, and just letting that soft light be sort of just present and wonderful. I mean, sometimes, you know, we walk into like a hotel room and you're just like, oh, my God, what am I going to do with this? But so like smooth furniture around and, you know, tricking, tricking that, that bathroom, frosted glass, tricking that as a window, you know, little things that, you know, you just, you have to think, think pretty quickly, but also just matter of factly, like, how do you squeeze into cameras, you know, how, okay, what's the be cam going to have? Like, basically, I'm just hoping that and praying, knowing, I should say, that based on

the subject matter and the talent in front of camera, like, it's going to be a good conversation, you know? Yeah. It's not like it's going to make her, your lighting is going to make a break. like this conversation. I mean, I guess it might. There's one in there. There's one in there.

I don't know who shot it. It came before my time. But, wasn't me. In general, yeah, that was the process. That was the process anyway. That makes me think of two things. One, was there a sort of lookbook for this film?

Or did you kind of go into it just like I have a general idea of how to shoot interviews? I'm just going to do it. Yeah, this one a little less so. I would say my relationship with when Dave Grohl is the director based on when a sort of normal person is such a non-rockstar entity is a director is a little more like like calculated and presented and I think because I had worked with Dave so many times on other projects it was really just like understood like what we're going to show up you're going to bring a crew that isn't going to be awkward and weird around all these other superstars and right and like we're just going to have this great conversation these conversations like we do you know um did i make a look for what joins us i think at the time we were also making this other project with dave's mom um called cradle to stage i can't remember which came first and i did make a lookbook for that which was more traditional sort of interviews and veritas scenes i think at the time they were also they were sort of overlapping

these projects. Sure. That's fun. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you just had to quickly shift your hat. Like, okay, what are we doing today? You know. Interfaring Stephen Tyler in a bus. Oh, okay. Right. Right. And the second thought was when you were saying, like, you just got to show up and make it work. Do you remember, was there a moment where you realized you had the confidence to do that? because, you know, I assume, you know, for me specifically, like I remember there was a lot of sort of bringing almost textbooks with me to set, so to speak, to like, okay, I am doing that right, you know, versus now it's very much like, yeah, I'll show up. I know where the windows are and I'll, yeah. True. I, I've, it's true. I mean, I've, with the vast amount of

documentary projects I have under my belt, there definitely came apart where I was like, okay, yeah, I got this. Let's just make sure the gaffer shows up with like this, this, this, this unit. And you know what you can achieve with those units, you know, like having like all the right tools in place to know that you can walk into anywhere. And then be and then have the confidence at some point to say, yeah, we can just just go get one quasar tube and this is good. You know what I mean? I don't know exactly if I can pinpoint that moment. I definitely felt that kind of confidence walking into what drives us based on just my history with Dave. But then also like all the other interviews I've done just under my belt.

I mean, back to Sound City, like when we started that project. Love that film, by the way. I would have, you know, yet again, another composition notebook. And I would write down what, where the frame lines were, like where camera direction was, what lighting units we used, what diffusion we used. I would jot down notes. I can't imagine doing that now. You know what I mean?

Like there's just no way that I would bother with that. But I can't say that that wasn't valuable note taking, you know, in the long run. At the time, it wasn't necessarily like I'm keeping track of like how I lit things. I think at the time, I mean, I was, I suppose. But I was also kind of making sure that we didn't do everybody like framed looking to the left and looking to the right. And so I was just, it was like 40 or 50 interviews we did for that film. So I think I was like sort of just clocking that too. And I didn't want to have like one be too heavy one side or the other.

Right. I don't know. It's, you know, I definitely at that time, you know, was, was, was more calculative and keeping track of things. And then just I think, you know. But then you've got projects like, uh, for instance the Netflix we are the champions like series which is like a quirky sports series you know we had very specific uh center framed for our talent like the main characters you know like and everything was designed a little bit differently and we did like have location photos

and we did not every time but you know every project kind of calls for yeah i think it almost comes a little bit down to like the psychological aspect of it like it or what you're trying to present or how you're trying to present these these people that in this in the champions thing was more regular people right you know for what drives us it's like is very important to create that environment that feels super casual but still professional especially with the talent in front of you you know it's like they've done this thousand and nine you know more than a thousand sometimes they put their face in front of a camera. So it's more like creating like a room, a space that just feels comfortable where they can just riff, you know? And that and that was

more important than giving a shit about like, oh that this frame's a little unbalanced. Like let's jump in there and get that lamp and move it left or right or you know, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say like the comfort and stuff because I remember you know for for talking about like the rough beginnings of punk bands uh for to have someone go like my name is edge like no it's not yeah they're like they're like tough and and and flash like you want us to say our names yeah our real like you don't like you because you don't know who we are yeah I'm very confused I love that little moment um I know I got to let you go, which sucks, because I literally have like a shit ton of notes.

I mean, I won't have another thing until two. Oh, okay. Well, I definitely don't want to keep you until then. But, and I could also talk to you about Sound City for fucking ever. Yeah, a good one. Can you talk to me about why you picked the Black Magic cameras over ARIA or Canon or anything like that? Of course.

Sure. Doc. Yes. So, you know, sometimes in life and with the restrictions of budgets for documentary filmmaking, you don't. always get your camera of like top shelf choice right and you have to as a cinematographer you know calculate everything regarding the budget and regarding the like um just the process of how the film is going to go down in this case in the case of what drives as producers

had a very good relationship with black magic they owned the cameras uh the production I already own the cameras. And so for me, it was just like a perfectly fine choice for the subject matter. It was reliable. And I really do love the black magic like base log. I feel like it's a camera that works really well with others. You know, like if you are in a situation where it's a B cam or a C cam and you have a different camera platform, I find that in color correction in the end.

you can it has a very easy um palette to you know match what else you're you're shooting but when it's also all in its own same family you know even easier i knew the film would be finely colored in da Vinci i knew it was going to be posted like i knew from beginning to end like this was going to be a very easy um you know post flow sure so and then also So, you know, just matter of fact, Lee, you know, instead of shooting to cards, we often shot to those S-by-S drives, the solid-state drives, which have like a huge running time because sometimes these conversations are going a long time. And you're making like maybe once or twice, you might be stopping because, but more or less for a sound issue, like, and you just want to like cut up the clip because you don't want to have like the, you don't want to have Stephen Tyler be talking for, you know, an hour and five minutes. minutes and then lose one whole hour and five minutes if something is corrupted. But like I knew with those with that camera platform with solid state drives, like we were

secure. And our monitors, our onboard monitors also had we're recording proxies to SD drives. So at the very least, if something did happen to the main go body of the clip, we would have the proxy. Yeah, yeah. It just all made sense really, like the relationship with the that the producers are had and then ultimately like if you sit back and look at what it actually is these very long takes that like you know need to be gently processed and moved through post you know it just it was like

no problem you know what I mean and so for me like and then also then just picking the like just set of super speeds good old fashion Zeiss supersedes old glass you know on these older faces really fast like you know opens to one four you know you could really kind of erase the background and just like you know let let let it be like they were just classic classic lenses so um yeah i mean that that was it really like that was the thought process and then sometimes when we had the multiple cameras that were needed for some of the driving stuff you know we just got a bunch of pocket cameras you know or stuck them all around and put them in places and it was it was just It was pretty simple.

Is there a, so I've shot pretty much everything, but I've found that the, for like solo shooting or whatever, I find the Canon cameras are very like just the way I can set them up. I like them, you know, it just feels, it gets to that point where the camera disappears and I'm just like everything's very extensiony. Is there sort of a maybe even a rig or just a camera system that has worked like that for you or something that is made being a DP more fluid and more out of your way? For sure.

I've been an area Amira owner since like 2016. And so that literally I find to be an extension of my body in the dock space. You know, it's not always the best camera. It's huge. If you can't totally run and gun with it, you can't just hop right into the car and I don't have your battery bang in the window. But when it comes to user ability, when it comes to the buttons all being on the left side for the operator, you know, that is my go-to camera for dockwork for sure.

And it also brought me back after a very long process of going from film through the DSLR sort of early stages of digital and then like graduating now, again, to be bigger cameras for that airy S. you know, the SR2, like on my shoulder charging into the field, they have that same similar balance. So that's my, that's my go-to camera for doc. But these days, like with all of these streaming platforms, you know, it's becoming more and more difficult to even shooting an airy raw. Sometimes that is not good enough for the 4K plus spectrum.

We're entering with streaming. So I'm, I have a meeting just in a couple hours about that very, challenge of what's going to be the camera platform for this next project because it all has to be calculated you know you're always making decisions based on like like yes you want the best image but then practically how does that suit the budget how does that suit this shooting environment you're about to climb into you know like uh the balance and the operation of the camera is really important to me you may i mean sometimes even maybe i don't know maybe more so than the final image the like the quality of or the whatever the base red raw or right

or the data collection yeah exactly like maybe i mean it all it all has to be calculated you know i'm i'm actually surprised more like narratives don't shoot on the amira i get i get wanting a small camera for sure but like i feel like the amira's got to be ari's best camera they just need to make a 4k version and they'll be yeah Yeah. Did you, yeah. Did you, this is actually, this might be a like lower than your current station question. But would you say that owning the Amira got you more jobs?

Does camera ownership do you think get you jobs? Or is it mostly in the documentary space where that's helpful? Yeah, really good question. I would say the mirror definitely up the ante for me at that time and that present state of doing dock work. I think it led to better projects. I think it got, made the image better, made the final product better. Totally. And that gets noticed. So yes. So yes, while you should just experiment in the early days with your cell phone, like when you're 10, no, you know, ultimately the image matters quite a bit to the people that are going to be spending money to hire you,

spending money on a project producers directors that's what they're going to be looking at sort of interesting how it came full circle at the beginning where i was like just go shoot it on anything because it's true and you should and you need to experiment and like see if this is something that interests you because it's not a half-ass type of gig like you are full body you are all in your everything is affected your personal life your family life like this job is very consuming yeah um you know, you can't just, especially as a cinematographer and as an operating cinematographer, you don't have time to do much else in the day. So it's just even take a phone call or even eat lunch.

Remember to drink water. It's just like a lot of go, go, go. And, you know, not every single project is like that. Sometimes it's a lot easier. You show up and you're just like sitting on an apple box for two hours. But like, you know, the most part, it's very consuming. And the final image really should make a difference. Well, and especially for the camera ownership thing, if it's your job, it makes more sense.

But a lot of times people say, don't buy a camera. I was giving this advice. Don't buy a camera. Just rent. It's like, well, what if the budget is small enough that, like, if you owned a camera, you could, A, get that money for your own, you know, your kit rental. But B, it wouldn't be enough to get a better camera. You know, like, it would be better for me to own the thing.

To make the, make the project better. Right. Versus renting something worse. Which makes you better in the end. So, I mean, yeah, that's a strong, it's a strong debate that, but for me personally, I think it elevated my work. And in the long run up to this moment, like, made a difference to be an, to be an owner of a cinema, you know. quality camera. And so do you think the Amira specifically led to more jobs or do you think if you owned a C300 or an FS7, the same attention would have been given? I think it would be the same.

I think it would be the same. Honestly, like especially in a like a more of the, the gathering of the the regular people. Like you're finding your people that you're going to work with that are also like on this like climbing up upwards path um you know that you might start out with just some something small but you can bring this great camera this this great lens package like to the project you know just to make it better like then maybe they'll get seen to in better places maybe it'll win our award you know who knows like i don't know i don't think that it necessarily matters which camera platform but being able to offer your self like as a full like owner operator I don't know it works for me well and I think that brings

up the ultimate point which is and being on topic is like no DP is an island you're part of a band you're part of a crew and I think that might might be the key to the whole owner operator versus rental argument is regardless of where you're at you should be having these conversations with the people you're working with if you're just trying to buy camera and hope someone's going to see that on instagram and go like oh they've got a whatever red weapon call them like that's much less likely to happen that's right that's right yeah it's it's it's the thing that comes after it's the byproduct of the project that you already you already had the job but you just elevated it yeah and so that's like proof you know what i mean as a as a starting out filmmaker even the pocket six

K is amazing. Yeah. And if you already- The original pocket is amazing. Even, and if you have, a lot of it comes down to lensing choices too. And like, if you already have a bunch of like EF lens, like glass at your disposal, like that, and that's an easy transition to just get you out shooting more, you know, than by all means.

Like there's, like I said earlier, there's no rules to this. You know what I mean? Like, you're just, you're setting out to, you know, to tell a story. one way or another, like you've got to use the tools that you have available at the same time. You know, like that could sometimes be more important than just shooting on 8K or whatever. Well, and I think that kind of also goes when, you know, our old man yelling at cloud discussions with the kids these days is it's much easier to focus on the gear now than the storytelling. The gear is much more accessible.

It used to be you had to get film. well if you couldn't get film I guess we better spend all our time writing until we have something that's worth spending all that money on whereas now shit I've said this before like my Fuji XT3 incredible images and if I just had that ready to roll I'd shoot any damn thing I mean even when I was shooting you know as a kid shooting VHS or hiate or whatever even bringing that out since I knew I couldn't edit it was like all right well let's come up with something cool let's do a matrix parody or what not a parody but whatever interpretation yeah so i i would be remiss not to ask uh how is dave grohl like as a director and has he taught you anything about the film industry as he hasn't necessarily come from film i don't know is he like a huge movie buff um no probably not not a not that i know of anyway i think he's definitely like aware of uh you know films that are you know big deals but i don't think he, he studies necessarily. I mean, as a director, at least now, after all these films and projects, you know, he, he almost like doesn't, um, he, he, these days, I should

say, he just wants to be, it just wants to be easy. Like, he wants to show up and have it be, like, a good time. Like, he doesn't want anything to, like, wear on him. He doesn't want to have to make some hard decisions you know and chances are like he doesn't have to even when it comes to i know it's probably more difficult he's probably more excited to show up on an interview day where he gets to talk with another musician that he either knows or doesn't know like that's that's like really fun for him i believe right or i like to think and then when it comes to like watching edits and previewing stuff like that is the side of directing that he probably doesn't love and it's probably She's sitting there doing paradiddles on his thighs.

A little more difficult to wrangle him in to, like, get him in and give notes and all that stuff. But he does, like, you know, because he gets it. I mean, in the beginning, like Sound City was his first project ever. And so he was a little more involved, you know. He wanted to, like, know about some stuff. But even that, even back then, he really trusted the filmmakers to, like, you know, give him a solid, you know, base on how to, you know, you know, present a story. So, you know, I think for the most part, like, if anything, if you bring something to the

table, he'll just say, like, it'll be like, no, you know, okay, okay, cool, you'll change it. But, you know, that doesn't happen very often. Not lately. That doesn't happen very often. It's more about more like just presenting, like, a good vibe for him. And that's really important. You know, he doesn't, like, he doesn't, like, show up with, like, like a piece of paper. like he's like a list of questions for these artists that he interviewed like he just shows up

and like starts talking sees where it goes you know like maybe if he doesn't know an artist he might have done a Wikipedia search or something just to get the basics but they always find a common ground just as being musicians you know and like that's where he's the most comfortable so yeah I in some ways I kind of think of this podcast like that but it is interesting to hear that it's more about the vibe. And so I assume that means that there's a lot of trust involved on his part. He's just like, yeah, yeah, just set it up. Like, I just want to talk.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I can remember a couple of times in Sound City, you know, it's even in the movie. Like we hit the fog machine or something during a moment of performance. And it was like, no way. No fucking way, guys. You know, don't even, don't even, don't even try.

You know. But nowadays, nowadays. Why does it smell like syrup in here? Yeah. And, you know, even some of the stuff, like, if they're doing, like, some, like, food fighter stuff, like, the band shows up and performs. Like, they just, you know, they just expects he to be ready to go when he's ready, you know? Like, so, I don't know. I guess so it was just like a matter of sort of, like, being with him over and over again in these environments and not making it seem, like, too taxing for him as a perform when he's in front of the camera, like, as a performance.

former you're going to get like one you're going to get one maybe two takes you know what i mean you better be rolling better right better be red um you know well that's that's fascinating because i uh know a few non-film artists that i've shot with and they are kind of very in the moment like that like you know just like hey can we do that again they're like why you want to fuck it up you know it was perfect the first time well you said this i don't care i don't care what happened it was good when I said it. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's how their lives are on stage. You don't get a read. I mean, you can. But like, you don't get a redo. Right. That's right. Certainly.

Certainly when it comes to live music. I mean, maybe in the studio if you're recording something. But like, but yeah, like you're right. You know, I think that and they're just sort of like

structured that way, you know, in their minds. They're going to give this. They're going to give this to you. So you better get it right. Yeah. Which I can appreciate.

So I like to end all of these podcasts kind of with the same two questions, but they just changed, so they're new two questions, to simplify things. But the first one is, do you remember a piece of advice, it doesn't have to be the piece of advice, but just something that someone told you or imbibed in you, imbibed in you, imbued in you? There we go, thank you, that really stuck with you and elevated your career. And then the second question is, is there a movie that you recommend everyone see? Okay.

Really simple. First, I was at an ASC breakfast when they used to have those gatherings and they would invite like a DP to just have a conversation like this, you know, but with a crowd of people. Paul Cameron, DP, Paul Cameron, who I actually share a birthday with, ironically. but anyway he just said one thing that has always stuck with me and it's just really simple be interested and be interesting and you can look at that a couple different ways but if you think about it it's not necessarily the best advice to be like a cinematographer or anything specifically it's really more or less like to be an interest to be an interested interested person you know like that's the way I took it anyway

and it was some piece of advice that he was saying somebody gave him once and it's always stuck with him I think as cinematographers is specifically poignant because as storytellers whether it's documentary

in the moment filmmaking or you're really structuring a narrative film like you have to be very interested and very present like in the moment I always say the strongest thing the more important thing to a cinematographer certainly

I don't know across the board of all genres is to be a really good listener you know I think it's it's paramount to understand the emotion of a scene and find a way to shoot it cover it light it all of that is calculated but like if you're not listening and if you're not like aware of like if you're not like in the room you're like reading the room you know like you're out you're out of it and you're making choices based on like some selfish like just want to make it pretty kind of thing but like I think more importantly it's like getting down to the to the baseline to the heart to the emotion of like the moment

story uh whatever it may be and then you know be interesting I mean I think that also is relatable to being a cinematographer because like, I don't know, you, you just have to keep, like, gathering the people around you, like, and have them believe in you. Like, you know, you are, like, kind of, there's a director, yes, but, like, they're sometimes looking at you, like, so you need to, like, have this collective, um, understanding of, of how to gather other humans around you and believe in you. And, like, this is like, this is, this is, this is. this idea is going to work, guys. Like, we need to rally together. And so I think that kind of lends to that whole, like, be interesting part because you have to constantly sort of be drawing people into your idea, you know, your presentation, like, just to go forward.

Yeah. Anyway, be interested and be interesting. You take it a bunch of thousand different ways, really. But then a movie, one movie, one movie, everyone should. It doesn't have to be the movie, just something that you just, maybe you saw it reasonably. Maybe it's one of your favorites, just something that you're like, people should see this. I do. You know, it's funny.

I have a little iPad that I travel with. Like, it's really just stocked with movies. There's definitely like, it's a variety of narrative and docs. But there's a movie on there that I'm weird just because it's on there, but I can never delete it. And it's, man on fire. Good one. Denzel Washington and Dakota

bandy as a little girl and now that now that sounds like I'm brown-nosing because that DP is named Paul Cameron also but I just love it

like I love that you know that double exposure and that like triple exposure that like poppy it was shot on film and I love that layering of imagery and I just like you're telling

like this like a narrative film like and you're taking it making these visual, directed by Todi Scott, visual like departures of what's sort of normal filmmaking and storytelling. I don't know. I just love that so much. I do think everybody should probably watch Bellini's eight and a half, though, if they've never seen it. Yes. And then I was on, I was just on a plane last yesterday, yesterday morning and I watched Casablanca, which I've now probably seen 50 times and it gets better and better every time. I don't know.

Those are great ones. You know, I feel like if you had to just narrow down all of your streaming, like devices for like two things, it would be the Coda Collection. Oh, see what I did there? Do what I did there. Seven day free trial, Amazon Prime. That's how I got a whole of the screener. And the Criterion Collection.

Like, because there's so many amazing gems on there that you never heard of. That might just strike you. it might just be really bizarre storytelling too but like i don't know there's just other ways you know to look at things and like that's some of those those films that are on there you know like it's almost more of a goal for me in life to have a project that make it to the criteria and collection then you know just strictly Netflix or something like that yeah during the uh during the pandemonium during the panda sanctuary i uh i went on a criterion tear. I bought like 40 Blu-rays. And it's just been the education you can get

from those special features are so undervalued. We need more. We need a streaming service. You and I can start it. Only filmmakers care, though, just so you know. Women is audience. But how much do you think the licensing is on special features? It's got to be nothing, right? Like you're not you're not licensing the film. I'm sure the DVD manufacturers are like, listen, we'll take 10 bucks for it. You know, Oh, yeah. Either way. Yeah. Yeah. But that's been a dream of mine forever. But those are all great. Eight and a half is amazing.

So is man on fire. For me, it's like Constantine and Hellboy, too, for some reason. I've been watching a lot. But I actually have a third question now because you're a documentarian. Shoe selection. Do you have any advice? I've asked all the DPs, all the documentary DPs. That's so funny. That's a great question. My shoes are not that great for what I do. I've just stuck in boots. I have been wearing like the same style type boot for the last 20 years and I don't know that my body would work the same on set if I was

like wearing comfortable sneakers. I get asked that a lot, you know, because of the boots, because like people don't know, can't quite understand like how that's a logical choice. And sometimes it's just who I am, I guess. know. And I can wear the same shoe like, you know, on an L.A. downtown street as I can climbing a hill, you know, mountain. So I don't know. That's just me. Yeah. Some days those dogs are barking. So, you know, I will say. So maybe there's a transition coming in my life sometimes soon. I'm just one of those people that doesn't change like the look very much. Oh, I'm the same way. I, I asked a buddy. I,

wear the Red Wings boots a lot, but I've switched over to Blundstones now for comfort. But a buddy in mine who's big into fashion, I was like, what can I do? I was like normally I wear, you know, like black T-shirt, specific pair of jeans, these boots. He goes, oh, you have a uniform. I was like, oh, yeah. And he goes, that's fine. Be a uniform guy. I was like, oh, okay, cool. I thought I was disappointing the fashion people. But no, uniforms are dope. Well, in fact, some people appreciate them certainly like a higher end like executive producer types. Like if they have a director walk into their office, and this doesn't go for everybody, but that is like, you know, just wearing that that's pulled off that black t-shirt off the stack and just wearing jeans. Like, it's considered that they're

like more of a cool. They're more of a creative person. They're not going to actually overthink the thing that they're wearing. Sure. I'm not going to be caught up on their day of what they have to do that day based on what they're wearing or how they feel or how they look. It's more just like, cool, let's just get back right down to it. A practicality. Yeah, you know, I mean, look at Rick Rubin, he's probably got like 90 white t-shirts to stack. Maybe they're on hangers. I don't know. Hair shorts, flip-blops, like those little slideys, slip-ons, and just white t-shirt every day. I mean, every day. Talk about a brilliant creative, you know, like, yeah, he doesn't have to think about what he's going to wear. It's just a white t-shirt. I was going to say he probably

has like a more stringent like beard maintenance schedule than his t-shirt selection right priority or not i mean that thing's enormous um well like i said i'll let you go thank you so much for uh spending the extra near hour with me um i would love to have you back on and talk about all your other films because good lord you've got uh such a such a wealth of knowledge you must uh carry around in that head of ears. So. Yeah. And I could dig into it for hours. But again, thank you so much.

That was fantastic. Great. Well, good. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Frame and reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed

by Nate Truax of Truax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coal coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.