Frame & Reference Podcast - 35: "Passing" DP Edu Grau, ASC AEC

Episode Date: November 5, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with cinematographer Edu Grau, ASC AEC about the new film “Passing." Some of Edu’s credits including “The Way Back”, “A Single Man” and “Buried.””Passing” is now playing in theaters and on Netflix so make sure to check it out! Follow Kenny on twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with Edou Grau, the DP of the new film Passing. Depending on when you listen to this, you may or may not be able to see passing. at the time of this release you can't so in light of that we kind of had a one of our classic cover all the topics discussions and it was thoroughly enjoyable I learned a lot and I think we had a lot of laughs along the way as well so I'll jut up now and let you get to the fun this is edu growl ASC were you always a visual person or did you kind of come into it later I think it was a combination. I was a very physical kid, you know, when I was growing up. And I, you know, I was like the classic guy that could play basketball well. And I was the, I run every single, you know, race at school and won every single one of that, you know, that kind of guy. But then I, when I was 13 or 14, I started being bullied at the basketball team, you know, at school. So I kind of, that turned my

myself, my life away a bit, and I just become, I start becoming a bit more introspective and a bit less social and a bit more, you know, I was only hanging out with, you know, the intellectual guys and the goals. And I kind of like at that point, it was like, you know what? Sports are not for me. I'm, you know, I want to do something else. And then I was like, a lot into cinema. My best friend wanted to be in cinema. I was like, you know what? Sounds like a good idea. And I started, you know, getting obsessed with cinema at 12. And I, yeah, and then I went, I was very lucky as well that I got the right recommendation from friends and family of this new school that was coming out in Barcelona.

That was the school of cinema, Skak, and that just opened, and it happened to be amazing, actually. I learned a lot of the stuff. And a lot of my friends there are now amazing, you know, directors and cinematographers. I was in the right place at the right time as well. You know, that really helped me. But then, yeah, and then I was never as a kid obsessed with cameras and so on. You know, I was never one of those, you know, but after, you know, at 16 or 17, I started getting into a little bit more, but it was not until film school that I realized

that maybe directing was not for me, screenwriting and producing were a bit too hard. Suddenly, I also met the DPs that a few years above me, you know, are now vows and so on. And they were like, I want to be like those guys. They're like the cool kids that are having the most fun on set. So that's where I went to, you know, that's why I, that's when I made the decision. I think I want to become a cinematographer, you know, after a year of film school, I was like, okay, you know, that's, that's, you know, and then I start working very hard. I was not, I was not, how is it, it didn't come with me.

me as um you know from birth in a way you know i just work very hard and you know and start working on taste and lighting and you know i'm learning a lot watching a lot of movies and that's how i kind of like step up you know and i kind of learn a lot and and that's it i continue learning right now still you know it's still a learning process but i'm i'm getting that you know so i i i think that's a bit a bit of like how I became a cinematographer for sure it's funny I had I have almost the exact same trajectory except for the working hard part that took a minute for me I got out of film school and I was working on other things but um exactly I mean it's like yeah it was like I became obsessed and at the end of the day I that's also how I I see my friends

and the, you know, and, you know, and the ones that have succeed, you know, of all my friends that were at school. And I think it's like, it's, it's the passion and the dedication and the hard work that got us here, you know. The ones that were naturally talented, but lazy didn't make it, you know, so something I learned, you know, growing up, you know, it's like, it was one of those things looking back, you're like, oh, you know, you know, those ones, the talented the ones didn't make it as much as the ones that they were not as talented, but they just brought their ass off, you know? Yeah, there's something that, you know, especially nowadays that, you know, especially

cinematography is so accessible, you know, you can, if you have a story, I think that's the weird thing in my head is like now, back then, like, you had to fight to tell your story and now it's relatively easy to tell your story. And I think the, relatively easy. But, like, I think most people, myself included, have gotten caught up in the trappings, you know, the, like, the gear especially, but just, like, pretty pictures. You know, it's very easy to get enamored with pretty pictures. What did you, what did you find was, like, the thing that pushed you through? Like, for me, it was finally getting into, like, you know, obviously you're American cinematographers, but reading interviews with DPs and, like, really getting into that.

And also photo books, like observing, like the great masters of photography and like kind of getting into fine art kind of pushed me into my cinematography reign. Absolutely. Now, that's how a lot of, you know, my learning curve was through, you know, through reading, you know, special stuff and books. But I would add as well watching a lot of films, obviously, and shooting, you know. and I'm shooting, you know, I did a lot of film school. I went to Skag and then I went to two years of film school in London and then FBS.

You know, I think, you know, which is a lot. It's six years of film school. It's pretty crazy. You know, not that many people can, you know, take that time or that money to do it. You know, so I was very lucky. But I think I learned a lot by just pushing myself and being pushed by my, by my, by my, colleagues at film school. You know, like, it's like we kind of wanted to make each other better. We kind of wanted to be inspired and inspired the other ones. And I thought that was like one way

that I learned a lot and that's how I also, you know, apart from the other things, it's just that attitude. It's also a bit more Spanish than I would say English, you know. I remember coming to the NFDS in London and, you know, we were criticizing each other and they were like, hey, hey, come down here we are more like you know patting in the back and say this is great keep going you know in Spain would like smash each other like you know these shots or you know like we were like kind of like really like you will you know in a way it's different attitude is like you out of Spanish school you will come out like beaten up and just thinking oh I'm not that good whereas in the English one was like

you know you will come out a lot more proud and a lot happier you know but not haven't learned, you know, probably as much as you could have because you would not have many that much criticism, which I think both parts work in a, somehow, in a strange way, but it's like, yeah, it's different, you know, methodologies, you know. It's also interesting, you know. I definitely have the, I suppose, impulse to, if it's something, if it's something that I love or a friend of mine, I am, I've been told, and now I've learned being this end of 30, that I'm kind of brutal when it comes to the critique. But in my defense, I don't critique things I don't like or care about.

Like if it's not some, you know, if it's not like my friend's prod, like I don't say anything. You know, I don't care. It doesn't bother me. But if it's some, if it's a friend of mine, like I want it to be the best it can be. And my opinion might not be correct. But I just want it to be good. So I'm like, ooh, if you did this. And they're like, man, I worked really hard on that.

I'm like, yeah, but you can do better. You know, they're always like, shut the fuck up, man. Yeah, I haven't been the same. You know, yeah, I mean, I think what saves us is the passion and the love for, for why we are talking. And I think, you know, it's like sometimes it can be also with my English, you know, coming, you know, being a foreigner, you know, like, it's also some can be taking one way or a different way that I intended, you know. But, you know, I, you know, I'm a passionate man. I care for the things I do, the thing or the things I, you know, I watch or the things I talk to about, you know. So it's like it's coming from that, you know, good spirit of being passionate

and caring for for the right work and doing the best we can. Yeah. Well, and it's the environment too, right? Like if you know that critique is coming from a place of love, it's easier to apply that critique in a positive way versus I think a lot of people, especially in art, can find critique damaging because it's like you do put your heart and soul into something and then to immediately have someone say it wasn't good enough you're like but that was everything i had there's definitely like an iteration mindset you know exactly it's hard it's hard you know to be criticized you know when you've tried the most uh the best you could and you know and sometimes you know there are circumstances and sometimes it doesn't depend on you or sometimes that's what you wanted

to do you know so it's like it's hard it's it's always hard to take any criticism and, you know, but it's, that's what we do. That's the joyous world of making films that everyone, you know, can watch them and everyone can, you know, have an opinion, you know. There are different levels and qualities and rates of opinion, but it's like, it's not like, in contemporary art, it's all more difficult because, like, no, not many people know about it, you know, not many people understand. And films, the interesting thing of films is like to be watched and seen by a lot of people, you know.

Not all of them, but, you know, it is a lot more of a, you know, or a common knowledge, you know, or a lot of popular at least, you know. Right. Yeah. Oh, man. That is the worst, too, when you just get a cavalcade of people who have never done the job telling you what you should be doing. And you're just like, all right, you know. Yeah. Thanks for watching.

What films were you watching when you were coming up? Were you kind of like an art house guy or were you more in the sort of popular film sphere? No, I was kind of, well, I mean, obviously when I was young, young, sorry, I want to leave. And so, yeah, actually, when I was, when I was a kid, obviously, it's like one thing. but like when I was like a bit you know when I reached my later teenage I started being more interested about you know kind of it's a different thing in Europe as well you know like Ken Lodge is up on the cinemas you know and and that's what you want you know like it just won't can or something and you know like Ken Lodge you know became a huge influence to me

Kiarostami did as well and so it was like I was obsessed with Bury Allen so it was a combination I've never kind of been boxed in one thing, you know. I kind of like all genres and styles and all kind of filmmaking as, you know, as, you know, as long as I find it interesting, as I find as long as I move by the characters and the story telling. So, you know, so I kind of been fascinated by all sorts of genres and styles and art house and more popular, you know. So one of my favorite movies of all time, you know, for a long time, was Annie Hall, you know, like it's like a nice little comedy by, you know, and, but I also was obsessed that, you know, you know, like some of the more out-house European, you know, guys, you know. So it's like I've always been on that kind of not, not definable paste, you know, it's like, I don't, I kind of like, I don't, I kind of like, I don't, I kind of like, I enjoy. I enjoy watching all sorts of different things.

And I like the Russian, weird, you know, documentary filmmaker. And I enjoy a good superhero movie if it's very well told and very well done. And, you know, and there are, you know, I'm Batman or, you know, Superman. You know, I watch a lot of Superman when I was growing up. Sure, yeah. But, you know, I mean, so it's like, I've, you know, there's something to learn everywhere, you know. Absolutely.

lot of different stuff and also that's also the joy of you know cinema as well you know like you can watch like one kind and then you jump to another thing you know i i also you know don't want to restrain myself i you know there's so many good films around it's just sometimes difficult to find them you know and you don't need to you know and some of the best films are sometimes in the you know in the international scene more than in only in the american and seeing, you know, sometimes living in America, you kind of get narrow, narrower in the choices you have, you know, or in the cinemas around you, there are not that many, you know, of the interesting films that it was easier in Spain, I would say, you know, or in, or when I live

five years in London, it was also easier to see art house from, more than in America. But I also think, like, with the new reality of streaming, there are so many options. that you can watch and so many other places where you can find good stuff, you know, it's just, it's just finding them, I'm getting the right recommendations. Yeah. Oh, man, that, you know, that you bring up a great point.

So, like, I'm lucky enough to live in L.A. where, like, I'm right next to two theaters. I'm next to one that's, like, the nicest theater in the area. And then I'm next to another one that's still a nice theater, but they're mostly art house, right? It's one of the landmarks. It's called landmark.

And so it's really easy to, like, get both, but the problem that you just touched on is taste makers. I don't know which one I'm supposed to watch. And if you trust the internet, you're never going to watch anything. And I've also found that if you watch, or if you read reviews, you'll get talked out of seeing a movie that you may have liked. Like, I've enjoyed movies way more when I just went, uh, that one looks good, you know, or like, I like that actor.

I like that director. Let's go. You know. And the other thing, too, talking about narrowing. Like streaming definitely gives you way more options, but it also, like I was going to watch the comeback last night, but then it was like four in the morning. And I was like, I can't show up to this interview asleep. But, you know, you had to rent it. It was like a $4 rental, which is whatever. But if that's not, if someone was thinking about it and it's not on

the free streamer that they have, you know, then they won't see it. Were you a big physical meat? Were you like a big like rental guy? Because that was where I would, my tastes were made was like the rental guy would suggest things to me. And the more I went there, the more he knew my tastes and what I might like. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. I mean, actually, I was kind of lucky that I've always, you know, kind of was next to a library or was in the film school and I was renting from them, you know?

So it was kind of like, you know, like I was not, but, but yeah, I mean, in the film school was a bit different because you will get, you know, inputs of films to watch all the time from teachers, from students, and you will be like, oh, this is available, this is available, you know, and you will go, and you will, and also, like, there's so much, you know, in the film school library of films.

There's so much variation of so much stuff that you will never finish it, you know? I remember a friend of mine started watching films, you know, it's like, oh, I'm going to watch the whole library and start there on A, on the first year, you know, you know, and it never made it to the Z. You know, she could never, see all the films that she wanted, you know, she ended on the air or something.

I think there's so many of really good stuff that you can watch. And if you go in the order, it's like, so, you know, I've been a lot more, you know, follow my instincts and follow my, you know, but it's, that's why now I, what I do is I keep a record of the films I liked that I watch so I can recommend it to my friends because it's like, so many of them come like, hey, what should I watch? And then it's like, look, I watch these 10 films that are really good. And I think six of them you're really going to like. You know, so it's kind of useful, actually.

For sure. Oh, I meant, by the way, earlier, I meant the way back, not the comeback. Yeah. Your film, not some other film. Maybe he means the way back. Yeah, I'm not sure. It's such a, yeah, it's a random title that I don't, you know. It's a pity with that film.

I'm actually more proud of the film than, that the name of the poster suggests. You know, like I, the film is a lot better than, you know, the, you know, the name on the poster. But that's how it is, you know, with, you know, naming and, you know, posters, which actually, you know, it's a very complicated thing. And I think passing, for example, got it pre-write.

I love the name, I'm the poster of pastures. But I think it's the first time in my life that I'm really happy with that post. I think while the buried and the single man, And on Earth of the Cavalieria, my first movie, I was also very happy with the poster. But it's hard. It's hard to make a good poster. You know, and it also influences your reaction to a film.

You know, there are films, you know, that you would never watch with the poster. And then suddenly they are surprises that, you know. Like, it's, you know, it's part of, you know, the narrative of watching a film. You know, it's like, you are not into, you know, so anyway. It is, it is kind of interesting to see how, it, obviously, depends on the film, depends on the marketing company, depends on everything. But like that first impression can definitely make or break. Not to say that happened specifically with the way back because I'm going to watch it after this.

I'll give you an email. We can talk about that maybe. But yeah, it is kind of frustrating. It's again, it's like if you read reviews, you know, you'll get turned away from the film. If you judge it based on a poster, you know. Have you noticed that all trailers are the same now? It's like slowed down song, things to, on the beat, it's like one guy's making all trailers.

It's fascinating. It's fascinating how trailers get made and how it can change, you know, again, like the, you know, your procession of them. I was once in a trailer session of a movie and I actually saw how it happened and it's so crazy. The whole process and with a big production, big trailer, and I saw the whole process,

process and I was, you know, amazed at the choices they made and how quick and how, you know, random, you know, a person that doesn't know them. And sometimes gets it really right. Don't get me wrong. I mean, some trailers are amazing to watch. And with the same structure, they really work. But I was like, you know, I thought it was a lot more, there was a lot more thought through in it than it actually, you know, like, you know, it's very difficult to make a good trailer. I mean, not not expose the whole movie but also create interest be you know not a specific but you know interesting it's it's like everything in life it's like it takes you know a lot of talent and time and and care you know to do the right thing you know so it's like i have a lot of respect for the people

who do it right you know oh for sure i'm getting right because it's like yeah it's tricky it does it does feel like sometimes they let the trailer editor uh you know get interesting with it and then sometimes it does feel like you can hear the executive go. Just do what worked last time. And they're like, all right, well, we've got the color by numbers version right here. Exactly. I mean, and there is like, there is, you know, I understand also the exact saying that because it's sometimes they don't know.

And sometimes it's very difficult. You know, last, you know, last night they sent me the, of one of the last commercial that I did, they sent me 10. edits, 10 different edits, and it's like, but different, you know, like they are of the same project with the same brushes, 10 completely different edits. And it's difficult to choose, you know, like, I'm not a director, you know, but like, I look at them and they, you know, some of them work, but it's like finding, finding what really works is, it's a skill, you know, editing is a skill, you know, everything in, you know, in,

in life, but also in filmmaking is, is a skill and it takes a lot of, you know, dedicated. and care and, you know, and the nuances and the perfectionism is important, you know, to get it right, you know. Yeah. The, that's actually kind of made me think of something. So between films, I mean, you're, you've had a pretty good career so far, but it does seem maybe younger. You're kind of a younger guy. Have you been doing sort of between films like commercials and stuff like that or where what's your kind of like job look like at the moment? Yeah, no, I mean, I, that's what I do. You know, I, I, you know, I. I, you know, my love, my soul, my, you know, my, my dedication is doing features, you know, that's what I want to do, you know, that's why I started so much, that's what I love filmmaking, that's what my heart is, but it's like in the, in-between features, I do commercials, you know,

which is a lot, it's a life, it's a lot easier in terms of a schedule, money, I can live in L.A. and shoot only in Lennelian commercials, you know, with great people doing great stuff, learning stuff. Like, you know, it's a muscle as well shooting that you need to, you know, keep going and learning, you know. But, um, and what it gives in is, it's family time, but also, you know, that muscle and also I like to learn technical stuff and gear that it's like, oh, you know, you will not use, or techniques that you will not use in a feature unless you've tried them and you know so it's kind of an interesting balance you know shooting commercials in between movies and I'm very lucky you know at the other day you know I can I can be shooting

commercial until I find the right movie for me to do you know because it's like I'm pretty specific of the kind of stuff I want to do the kind of director the kind of story I want to tell you know and I get off for what I get offered you know it's not like it's like everything is at my disposal and not everyone is coming for me. Hey, you know, so it's like, you know, it takes time to find the right project, the right movies and, you know, and it's, and it's a process. And I think commercials allow me to have that patience and actually enjoy my job, more of as a day job, that is like kind of a perfect schedule,

because it's a few days a week, you know, get paid, you know, get paid substantially. It's a good, it's a lot, it's a very good pay, commercials probably a lot more than movies you know normally so it's like it's it's actually a really good job that you know lets me be with my family which is also important to me and it's also part of the jiggle between life you know and you know cinema and and all of this you know so so i i feel very fortunate to be able to you know to just wait for the right movie and not kind of have that mindset of let's keep doing movies non-stop, you know, because I need to work because that would mean that I'll be traveling all the time. I'll be some, you know,

I'll wait in LA doing commercials with my family and then when the right movie comes, I can travel anywhere, you know, but I'll go anywhere for the right project, for the right movie, but I don't go anywhere for for commercials. I try, you know, 95% of the commercials. I do I do them in LA so it makes it makes it easier for us you know what um so how important you know for someone wanting to get into commercials how important is having let's say a real or even maybe an agent or something how do how do those gigs come about and if it is a real how do you make that real first is that a lot of like just put your best three shots and hope that someone sees it or what's that kind of look like I mean it has changed since I last did a

real you know because it used to be real for me years ago exactly exactly you know my real you know like I'm that's the thing I mean it has changed the whole you know environment has changed with Instagram and you know like now people even don't even care to watch you know websites or real you know they see the you know they scroll through Instagram and they get the perception of that person's work you know but um these are a lot of ways you know like And obviously, through a friend or through a great collaborator, that's the best way. You know, you grow doing stuff with, you know, with someone and that person gets bigger and bigger and that it starts hiring you.

That's the easiest and best way. Obviously, you know, you can start doing music videos are a great way in to do commercials because it's a visual art. At the end of the end of the day, you're creating visuals. are interesting and cool and that's the whole point of music videos you know and that's a very interesting way into commercials which is you know can be so people can see your your work through that and obviously the idea is you know when you are when you manage to do a film and that film gets the attention to from the commercial people you know because then you can do both you know

Because if you are doing the jump from doing commercials to a movie, it's also going to be tricky, you know. And it's like, oh, no, he does commercials or she does commercials. You know, who knows what, you know, that person's skills are for, you know, narrative, you know. Whereas if you've done a visual movie and then they start hiring you for commercials, oh, that person, you know, oh, have you seen him, he did that, those, you know, that amazing movie and that, you know, that brings you to commercial. of that stages and that's what happened with me with tom for you know that i was not being hired to do anything i was you know i was 27 just coming out of film school in london you know doing little short films which are also amazing way in you know doing short films with people and doing you know and getting your kids into you know narrative and short forms it's it's great but and

then suddenly you know tom for saw my real and or a DVD at that time you know But that same real wasn't working. I wasn't getting any work for commercials or movies or anything for six, eight months and suddenly Tom Ford saw it by a very random

connection through that involves like late night screaming in Edinburgh and meeting random people and giving my real to them and you know and suddenly it got in Tom Ford's desk in LA when he was five weeks

away from shooting his debut theater a single man and that's how you know he felt in love with that same reel that no one liked you know and because it was different you had a slow uh slow music you know classical music instead of like you know the coolest song of the time you know it was a different thing and you know he saw some young kid that was doing you know 16 mill grainy poetic soft stuff and then he was blown away because it was totally different than all the reals that he had received from cool bps in LA you know so sure so all of a sudden my life changed with Tom Ford you know a single man and and I was it was the perfect gig also because it also you know it put me in the narrative scene I had done one and a one and a you know one and a half

movies before, very low budget, you know, but like that movie just put me just all with the grownups and, you know, and Colin Firth and Julian Moore and that movie, you know, just like was very well received and very well appreciated also in the visual sense. And what happened, you know, without even, you know, without understanding at first was that every single commercial, you know, director and art director in agency saw the Tom Ford movie because they are all wearing his glasses and they are all obsessed with Tom Ford. And suddenly I was just getting a lot of commercial gigs just based on that movie. And that's how, you know, both my career in commercials and movies, you know, just took off,

like, to a different level that I was, you know. And I was only 27, so it completely changed my life. I suddenly moved to L.A., you know, it's like it's, you know, it was a career, it was a game changer, and I was lucky. I was at midnight screaming in Edinburgh and I met a person in the line, and we start chatting, and that's how I got the Tom for movie. And so you never know how things happen, you know, and, you know, and how one thing leads to another, and, you know,

and then you also make all the mistakes that, you know, suddenly your career doesn't go one way. It's not as easy as, you know, oh, you do this and then, you know, no, you just need to keep doing it. You need to keep proving that you can do this, that's your job and you're good at it and, you know, you are special or good for one reason or another and, you know, meeting people and, you know, and treating people nicely and, you know, and yeah, and having something to say with your skills and your talent and your your passion and you know I don't know it's a whole it's a whole

wall you know it's a whole world you know it's a whole world of different stuff yeah there's a there's a quote that escapes my mind right now which makes it a bad quote but uh it was Josh Hami was talking about this documentary he made about Josh Hami's the singer guitarist of Queens of the Stone Age he um he made a documentary with uh oh crap um Iggy Pop called American Valhalla. And I went to that screening, and they did a Q&A. And he had mentioned that basically anyone's career is essentially preparedness and just sheer luck. And you just have to be ready to when your time comes up to get on it and go and make sure that you're ready.

You've done the work necessary to make sure you don't screw this job up or whatever it is. But it kind of is like a it just happens at some point. You know, you keep trying to bite the apple. Yeah, you know, funny enough, I mean, like when I got the call to get on a plane for Tom Ford, you know, it was such a big job for me. It was so crazy that, you know, that I had, I had diarrhea for three days, you know, between the call, getting on the plane, I arrived in to L.A. I had diarrhea. I was so scared and I was like, you know, that my life, I could see my life changing completely, you know, and I was 27, so on it, first time in L.A. offered a movie in Hollywood, you know, was like, but here is where your quote comes in.

I remember my grandfather, you know, who was called, I'm named after my grandfather, you know, Eduardo Tarragona, who was a politician, you know, and he once told me, you know, he was not the greatest, this was not the best grandfather, to be honest, he, you know, he had his things, you know, but he was very clever God. And one day, you know, talking, talking, He just said to me, you know, and I remember this quote when I was having diarrhea in the hotel in Burbank waiting to meet Tom Ford, you know. I remember that he said, look, you know, doesn't matter where you come from how good you are. There is one moment in your life. Everyone has one moment in their life where they can change everything, that their life can change completely.

And it's it's about being ready for that moment. and making, you know, and making the most of the opportunity that differentiates, you know, the people who can make it and the others who can't. And I look at myself in the mirror that day in Burbank at 7 a.m. And that's when I just got the confidence to go and meet Tom Ford and just like, you know what? Let's go.

This is the moment for me where everything can change and everything can. And I felt, yeah, I felt invigorated and, you know, kind of like full of confidence to go on that and the diarrhea stuff you know I'm sorry to be so specific but it was it's kind of you know it's kind of visual you know the diarrhea is very visual you know yeah it is uh Jackson Pollock famously loved to paint it um no that's a great point though like confidence is so especially in art you know confidence confidence in yourself but also confidence in your work is so difficult to come by and I and a lot of it I think is not necessarily fake it till you make it, but just like, if you, there's like a, I think

David Fincher kind of quote where it's like if you, you get into this because you know you have good taste. And then it's from there, it's like, do you trust your taste? Do you know? And if so, then you have to trust your work. You know, you can't, you can't keep second guessing yourself. You don't have to be a tortured artist. You can still make interesting work and be happy. Exactly. No, that's a good question. No, no, no, absolutely. You have, yeah, you, it is true. You need to try, you have, have confidence of what you do, what you like, and, you know, who you are, you know. And that was also a big learning for me when I was after that film, and throughout my career, it's like, if people choose me,

it's because they like what they saw. So I don't need to be pretending to be someone else, to be doing something. No, it's like they trust my, my style, they trust. my eye they trust my taste and you know and I can be confident I can be happy doing what I do you know I learn keep learning it doesn't need to be stuck what I with what I did I need to grow still but there is always a pattern on that learning you know that it's that's always interesting you know and keep keep just adding things and skills to to your skill set yeah so how did you end up sort of dovetailing into the subject at hand hand you end up getting

attached to the passing project you know it's it's been a long time in the making in a way you know like i i did a movie called the awakening in 2010 with where rebecca was the you know was the start and we from the get-go we had a connection you know like we are very similar people and we see life you know in a very you know you know in a very you know in a very similar way, we are the same age, we are kind of, you know, we have a similar humor. So we get along very well in The Awakening, and then, you know, and then it happened that I did another film with my dear Joel Egerton called The Gift in LA, and she was also in it. And we also get along with her and Jason Bainman, Joel, you know, it was kind of a really

good connection there. And they all end up, you know, like Joel obviously was directing, but Jason Bayman and Rebecca, they all end up. And you could totally tell they are filmmakers. They are actors filmmakers. You can tell when, you know, when an actor is not only good in front of the camera, he understands the language, understands the needs of the scene, of the movie to make it good, you know? So I, yeah, exactly. I mean, you can totally tell.

And you can see, you know, in the way they behave on set, the way they are, the way they taught, reference they have, you know. And so, and there's a few of the directors I work with that I could totally, you know, see them as directors, you know. So with Rebecca, it happened that after the gift, it was, you know, she, you know, we, we got along and she had a, a short film that I was supposed to do, but then I couldn't do it because of a schedule, and then she reached out for me for passing first time, but then the film went down. And then it happened and she found someone else to do

passing, but then there was a scheduled conflict. And then she called me, it's like, hey, can you do you know, I had this problem with that person and can you do it? And, you know, and it was a Saturday and it was to start on a Monday, you know, crap on the movie.

And I was like, you know what? Me and my family, we made the decision. Let's go to New York. Let's do this. This is totally worth it. She can totally, you know, you know, prove to be a great director and, you know, she hasn't been her and the story is pretty amazing and it's an amazing opportunity. So it just came very naturally that I was like, yeah, let's go, let's do it. Let's, you know, this is a good, a good one, you know? So. Yeah. So

obviously, I'm assuming that shooting four three was kind of like a choice because of the time period, but I can even correct me from wrong, but shooting in black and white kind of like the story almost demands it. Yeah, I mean, I think both things are, you know, dictated by the story, you know. And to be honest, and to be fair, it was not even my decision. When I came in the project, Rebecca, you know, wanted to do a black and white four three movie from the ghetto, you know, and that's how she sold it to the producers, that's how it was pitched all the way through, you know, she was writing it with that in mind, and it's all her, it was all in her, in a way, and it's different than a lot of black and white movies, that it's only

like aesthetic or like, you know, this is, this comes from the, the, the black and white decision is so related to the content, you know, that it's special and rare and beautiful. And it's true filmmaking at the end of the day, you know, it's like you make your decisions, you know, as a cinematographer, as a director, based on what you're telling. And that was kind of a real beautiful, you know, opportunity in passing. It was like, yeah, movies are meant to be like that, but sometimes they are not, you know. A lot of the times you make decisions just based on one thing or another. And this one was totally coming from the script and even like four, three, I see it as well.

You know, it's not only the time period, but it's also I see it because those characters are so boxed in their walls. You know, and they are, you know, that's how they live, you know, and they don't have a lot of periphery. You know, it's like they are in that behind, they are in this style of the beehive. And that's how, you know, that's where it comes from, the four three of it all, you know. So I think, you know, it's rare, but also very encouraging and beautiful when, you know, when the form comes dictated by the content, you know, and it's just a pleasure as a filmmaker to be on those movies, you know. Also, it's such an important storytelling, you know, device for this story,

for, you know, the black and white, you know, it's like, this movie is about identity, about race, about passing, you know, about differentiating white and black, you know, and it's, and everything in between, obviously, you know, so it's like kind of, it's just an amazing opportunity for a filmmaker for a cinematographer to be telling the story through light you know through through through color or the non-existence of color you know so yeah because i was going to ask like where um because i noticed certain scenes are are much higher in value there's a lot more contrast in certain scenes and i'm trying not to specify which scenes if people listening but talk to me about the choices you made for like maybe really deeply going for contrast or maybe lightning everything up so like well i guess this won't really give anything away for somebody who hasn't said it but like you know the opening scene is very white yeah

you know everything's very lit in the room versus the dance hall scene which is very you know exactly that's kind of that's kind of a bit of the roller course of the film you know it's like it was important for the film, it's not to be very specific and be very ambiguous at the beginning. So you are a bit lost of, you know, who's passing, who's not passing, who we, you know. And that's always a, and it's a very interesting device. And it was coming from the script and from Rebecca's first chats, it was like, these scenes need to be very bright. So we just like enhance that thing and to a level of brightness that I'm like, every time I see this, like, whoa, that's so bright, you know, but that's kind of like, you know,

and it's not something I would normally do, but kind of this story requires that level of brightness, that level of, you know, ambiguity. So your brain is thinking more, you know, and then, you know, we go, you know, after the first, you know, first, you know, 20 minutes of the movie, the movie goes in. into a more somber, more shadowy period, you know, or time on the movie where you discover the blackness of the characters, you discover the shadows, you discover, you know, what it is within that, you know, white light of the beginning, what it is that you were missing at the beginning. So it's kind of a, I think it's a joy to be able, that, you know, it's a joy that you

notice it but you know that it's also like it's a joy that people can you know can see the movie like these and kind of also be changing their minds as they go through it and they travel through it and it's like it's a movie full of details or all of ambiguity full of nuances yeah you know all in the performances and the way it's taught and i think and and it's not an easy movie either So it's like a movie for people to kind of grow into it and kind of devote themselves to it. It's not like the kind of easy, easy to watch movie. It's just like the more attention you pay to it,

the more you will find, the more, you know, kind of deepness and profound things you will find. And I find that, you know, really enlightening in the, in the shape and form where other visuals are going now, which everything seems to be very eatable and very easy to digest, you know. So I find that this movie is not for everyone, but it's also... But that's also the joy. That when you pass it all, when you just see it all,

you will feel like the audiences are supposed to feel when watching a film that is you know they learn something they grow with the they what they thought at the beginning is not exactly what they think at the end and it's uh they feel more clever and we we work hard you know to to convey those you know those thoughts and and it's not only through the brightness and darkness it's also through the journey of the movie through the compositions to you know the performances obviously and from every line of the script it has different meanings and different understandings the more you think about it and and that's why i also got that's why i got you know seduced you know by that film and by rebecca and i think that's why we all put

a lot of love and passion into it as well you know it's just like we are we want filmmaking to not be the obvious we want to make it not to be too easy to digest it and you know and for everyone we we just also we want to feel special watching a film and we want our audience to feel special when watching so you know it's a lot it's a lot of that it's a lot of it's a long answer but it's you know but i think yeah the question deserving sure yeah yeah uh from like a technical standpoint. How did shooting in black and white make your life easier and how did it maybe throw some challenges your way? You know, it was my first black and white movie and I always kind of wanted to do a black and white movie because, you know, it's suddenly it shows a light on the

cinematography a bit more. It's a lot easier to make up, you know, a good look in black and white movie than it is in color. That's for sure. I think we are all more appreciative of the photography in black and white than in color in general, you know. But it also has its own challenges and it's also too easy to fall into the default mode. So we were very excited to do a black and movie that you know that could tell the story through it but also we didn't want to go to the beaten paths of modern cinematography that you know there's a few actually quite a few and modern films lately that have been done in black and white and we kind of studied them and we we wanted to find something different that also will you know will connect to our story so we kind of

wanted to you know find something and that's how we you know so we chose our lenses and we chose without without our approach of the texture and through that you know but then by going back to your question I felt that it was a lot easier to make it beautiful or or kind of at least flashy to start it was very interesting in the way it reacted to color and your attention, you know? It was like, you know, you go to a location and suddenly it's red and you are like, oh, you know, that location is ugly, but like suddenly on black and white, it's just like, okay, you know, you, you kind of see the architectural bones and the white, the light fits that place. It doesn't, you know, the color doesn't

interfere in that. So it kind of simplifies your eye as the audience, but also as a filmmaker. and it kind of kind of makes it more naked as an image you know and and i find that very interesting and also being a period film in new york it kind of took a lot of it made it a lot easier for us to find a location you know you know if you are wondering yeah you're making a period film in new york and color is a problem wow you know like uh you know a lot of things it's color that shows the period, you know, more than the place or the architecture itself, you know. So it did help us a lot in making it more period, you know, and making, you know, and finding locations that would look good on that period.

Also like, you know, it's like you make it, you have a red, you know, or a green, striking ring in the back, but it's like, you know, it's, it's great. you know it's great so it's not so it's great you know so it's not like a striking fluorescent yellow or green you know it just it just it just grates it all up in a good way i would say most of the times you know but it's also as an image sometimes it creates trouble you know because my job the you know color helps us to separate things to to to to to to to point out stuff you know to you know and sometimes very easily on black and white things can fall into all gray you know all sorts of different shapes of gray and kind of leave it makes it

more difficult to kind of you know to emphasize something or to look something or like or to direct the audience to that place you know but uh by generally speaking i think it it does help us all it it did help us all and we were very happy on the production side to be shooting black and white as well you know it just like make it maybe there was a number of times that we felt like oh thanks why we're shooting black and white and think that no one will ever see this movie in color because you know this location would then you know it will have it will cost a fortune to make it you know right in color you know so so we're lucky we're lucky and um but but it all came from the content you know and and the story so it was even more you know

we enjoyed even more you know yeah what was your uh camera and lighting package on it because i the lens the lens was really pretty uh you know kind of had like anamorphic almost look to it but clearly was not and then i was also wondering like how oh it wasn't anamorphic oh okay you just chopped the hell out of it yeah exactly exactly yeah no Like, that's one of the things we encounter is that a lot of the 4-3, you know, like I would say all the films on black and white, the 4-3, have been shot as spherical for, you know, as terms of using the most amount of, you know, of sensor or, you know,

sensor sites, you know, size, you know. So, and one of the parts we found, and one of the things we found a bit boring about modern black and white, was that the length shows were a bit bored. You know, like if, you know, there are movies. There's a lot of very beautiful movies. Sorry. Sorry.

And there's a lot of, so I would say that there's a lot of black and white movies shot in black and white recently that look very good, you know, but I felt like the lens choices were not as interesting as the lighting choices. You know, people just take a lot of care of the. lighting and the composition, but the lens shows you, I always felt like there was, and we put a lot of testing and thought through, you know, what was the right lenses to shoot this movie? And after a while, I was like, you know what, it's pretty crazy, but what did we go anamorphic and we chop it all, you know, on the sides? And we hit a couple of tests and

we just like fell in love with those. And also like, because on anamorphic, you have more specific weird special lenses that there are in spherical and for the nature of the anamorphic itself so we did a couple of tests and after a bit and we just like when we saw it projected we were a bit scared at first because of the of of the nature of the resolution you know like suddenly you get a 3.2 camera and Alexa Mini and you chop it for 4-3 on anamorphic and you chop it for 4-3 on anamorphic and you're using basically 1.7 of the resolution, you know, 1.7K of resolution instead of 3.2. But, like, then we saw it on the big screen, and it was like, it was mind-blowing. We've never seen anything like that.

It was totally different than anything we've seen before on 4-3. And it was like, in black and white, so for us, it was like, it was an opera. Suddenly we found our lenses, and there were like these pretty special, weird, Russian, anamorphy glomo, you know, with the round front that there are not many, you know, like it's the same lenses that were, you know, like Ray Gada's shot silent light, you know, obviously four three, that was like anamorphy two for all that this is four three, you know, but they have this quality that it's difficult to find in modern lenses, the ration from the 70s, you know, so it was then suddenly we felt in love because it was also very important for us,

the texture, the texture of an image, you know, the way, you know, it kind of the highlights, the react, the way the blacks react, the way, you know, the grain interacts with the image, you know, at some point, one of the producers said to me, and this movie is like the care of a woman, you know, like, you know, like, it's like, you know, it's like, it has to be delicate and it, and it's, I think it stuck with me and, you know, we take, we took a, we took a lot of care and pride on finding a texture that was defining that movie and defining that, not only the period, but also the characters and the world that they were inhabiting this character. So we, you know, we chose these weird lenses. We choose a four-three black and white.

And then we also add, you know, grain on the end just to find a texture that was more, you know, connected to to reality than the plasticness of the digital image so we added a lot of grain at the end because from the beginning we knew

that we were going to add a brain because we cared for that you know so a lot of different elements that you know one on top of each other produce the image that you know the passing is yeah there I can't remember who did this

but someone had mentioned that they wanted to get a use an anamorphic to get, I believe it was 4-3. And so instead of chopping, they flipped the cameras on its side and put the anamorphic on that. So it was stretching the lengthwise. It was like a 1-3-a-1-3 anamorphic. So instead of stretching long, it stretched a super 35 sensor tall

and popped out to 4-3. So they got the full image. They just had to monitor everything sideways. Yeah, but you're still chopping. You chopper. No, no. So they shot, they shot 9 by 16, but then mounted the anamorphic 90 degrees. So it was stretching the sensor this way, but like that. Oh, I get it. So rotating, okay, I hear. Yeah, they had to build a mount. The PL mount had to be mounted sideways or like 90 degrees. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, you need someone, obviously, you need someone who can build that for you, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, I mean, like, it's like, we look, I mean, I think there is like some, you know, music videos and some stuff that has been done, but, like, not that, I don't, I don't recall any movie shot for free on anamorphic, you know, like I, I, I didn't see it from anywhere. Oh, no, I'm saying this is like a test. I don't think someone shot a movie like this. This is like some YouTube video that a guy made or something. No, no, it was pretty sturdy at first, you know, to, you know, to just, just chopping so much resolution and so on. But it also kind of, it just kind of went with the, with the kind of mood we wanted to create. We didn't want to make this movie super sharp, the fine. It's not, it's like a, it's a bit more painterly, a bit more like, it's like, it's a bit more like a filming. And, you know, obviously, it's not the most, you know, complicated. wall, you know, we are, we are in houses and a lot of two people, but we wanted to create that

feeling that there is something painfully, something impressionistic in the wall, that we are not, you know, that we, you cannot grasp it. It's like a bit of like the feeling that you get with an impressionistic painting, you know, like that you, there's a reality that it's being portrayed there, but it's, but the way you receive it is not exactly the way, you, it's, the way, you know the way the reality is it's it's a different thing it's your take through the artist and view that you're getting and we cannot have got fascinated on that idea and that's the part we also went you know yeah that's definitely like you I think you could maybe I don't want to say you can tell it shot digitally but it

does have like enough layers that it's it's its own texture it's its own visual kind of thing and it looks very pretty yeah I mean I mean, yeah, it's not, we were not, you know, like, obviously we were, you know, we shot digitally. There's nothing to hide in there, but it's like there is, there is a kind of a will to come back to a certain aesthetic or an adaptation of the 35 million aesthetic into digital times. But in a, but in a way that it's kind of not trying to do the same. as digital offers you is finding other ways, other paths that feel different

that it's like, I'm just bored of the same events like we were saying on the trailer I'm just bored of the scene watching the same image again and again because everyone shoots with the same cameras there are not that many cameras available

the lenses are you know becoming more and sharper and sharper and more more and more and more and more And I'm, you know, we're looking for something that was defining that movie in a, in a, in a different way. And I'm, I'm glad you, you, you, you got that impression, you know, that's at the end of day what we're, what we're trying, you know, just like, trying to get something, you know, and different than the average movie, you know. Yeah. Can you talk to me about the, how you approached lighting from like a fixtures point of view, but also color temperature?

because I don't know if you guys like kind of art directed the black and white in the grade or if you just kind of stuck with one stock lutt and went with it. But I assume that like, you know, mixed lighting sources obviously would adjust the way that the sensor perceives the light and, you know, what your key was. You know, were you using LEDs and stuff or sticking with tungsten? Yeah, yeah. I mean, and also come back to your previous question about the lighting package, which was very small. You know, like we have a limited budget, you know, I would not.

complain about the budget itself because it was like we had what we needed but it was like you know we had limitations like every movie and our lighting budget our liking package was you know pretty small but also we had what we needed and we also had that benefit of that we could mix color temperatures and color I lose there So we had that benefit that we could mix color temperatures and different sources, different kinds of lighting, because it's black and white at the end, so color is not that important. So we will use sometimes tungsten because of the texture of it and the quality that it gives in the faces and the light itself. So we will use quite a lot of tungsten light, but also sometimes we'll need HMI because of more or a stronger

output and then we'll mix it with LED lights and because they are dimmable and a lot easier sometimes to work with in the small spaces you know so there was a combination of of all those of all those things and and obviously you know using the practicals and the and the light of the places because we'll shoot you know most of the movie apart from the hotel room is all in in, you know, real location. So we'll use the places themselves, you know, as a starting point for the lighting, you know. So practicals were pretty essential to us and to,

and to create the mood, but also to create, like, you know, a light source that felt natural and organic to the place, you know. So we'll choose very carefully the practicals without the apartment and we'll, you know, we'll go from there and, you know, and use them as a way of starting the lightning, obviously, you know. Yeah. I also wanted, oh, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, please, please, please go. Oh, I was going to say, was there is, obviously there was, but I wanted to talk about your specific use of flares. There's a few instances where flares and reflections I noticed played like kind of a more specific role than like, oh, that came in. There's like an attention to it. You're like this, and I was kind of wondering what your thought process was. there.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, like we had those anamorphic lenses that they flur in a very specific way. And we, you know, in the testing and, you know, first stage of shooting, which is like, oh, maybe we should use them. You know, I get a bit bored of, you know, anamorphic flares when it's like, you know, or flurts in general if they are overused and I'm not overuse them in the past. So I know what I'm talking about.

We all have. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So it's like a, but there's a couple of moments that the flares felt significant. And one of them is probably the one you're talking about is the beginning. It's actually when she comes out of the hotel room, you know, from the white wall and the door closes and the, you know, the black wall starts, you know. It was actually like a thing I tried on the day and it just suddenly. kind of like felt like in between but then also we need some takes without it you know because

we were but like in the way they edit the music and the moment the performance you know and the lighting all things together it kind of worked and makes sense it kind of stacks out as like oh what's that because it's a flare coming from nowhere but it kind of it kind of points out at at an element of what was that? And it just poses a question that obviously filmmakers realize more than the audiences because for filmmakers is a bit more striking. But also there's a poetry through it

because it's not naturalistic. It's not, it doesn't totally make sense in the most accurate way. It just has that thing that it's surprising. And so yeah, I think that's also like one of those things when filmmaking is at its best. It's like when one thing doesn't make sense on its own, it just makes sense in the combination with other elements. You know, and I think in that first moment of the flur, the first flower, you know, the, you know, the, the flare when she closes the door of the hotel, it's just like the music. the editing, the performance, everything comes together.

And for me, that's no making at the end of the day. It's creating something altogether that means something. And again, I like that one because... It feels good. It feels good, but also it poses a question. It poses a question that you're like, what was that? And, you know, if you look back at the movie that were... that's where a chapter of the movie starts and it's kind of interesting I think it's kind of

interesting and there are all the flares I mean like at the beginning of the when she enters the the tea room but it's also um you know and at the end yeah the trees and you know I'm one that she it's behind and Claire also to emphasize her dreaminess and her speciality and on the end scene as well there's a few flurs as well so it's like and I think it's like we had those, you know, lenses, we had those elements of filmmaking to play with, and we were trying things out and seeing what we would get. And if there is an intention, there's a meaning or there is like a feeling that it's portrayed with the flare, I'm totally happy with those. You know, I'm totally, you know, it's just, flares, just, you know, just strike you

one way or another and differentiate you the moment and the light and the experience of watching. So, you know, within reason, you know, I'm happy when they are, when they make sense, you know. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're right. It does pose a question. That's why I asked because they don't feel arbitrary. They feel like punctuation marks, you know. And so I think it was like the second or third one. I was like, these are coming at very specific moments. These aren't just like wild flares. That's very cool. Well, I'm going to let you go here in a second because I know we gone a little over time, but I really quickly wanted to ask about making conscious decisions between, obviously with 4-3, it's really easy to center frame everyone, but there's a lot of really

cool angular sort of corner compositions. And I was wondering if you had what your sort of thought process was going into choosing those frames. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, framing this movie was a joy you know there was a first this concept of of frontality there's a lot of frontality in the movie and this play with a lot of the times with you know the feeling that there is no there is a flatness you know this you know the world we're watching it's like it's only showing the you know one one facade what two dimensions not we never see the depth or the three dimensionality of it or for example when we walk down the street you know like that shot that gets repeated it's only like so frontal it's and there's a lot of that in the movie and

and we only go to the profile or to find that three-dimensionality you know there's very little you know tracking shots or shots that move around the spaces you know and it's like and it's like we only use them to convey the depth and the three-dimensionality and the mysteries of the character or what the character is thinking that it's not conveyed by the frontality. So it's like this play of also with the mirrors and you know it's like this display of what the character sees or wants to show us or you know Yeah, it's like that. The character wants to show us this frontality. It wants to show to the wall how the character is, the character of Reneen.

But then sometimes we play these profiles or this very specific kind of change of angles or weird angles just to get into a different facade of the character or a different depth of the character. We go into the character and self in a different way. not necessarily the way that she is portraying herself to the world, you know? So as a filmmaker, you know, it's a joy thing, it's a joy of thing to be able to play with these, you know, with these elements that you really, you know, even talk about, you know. It's like this movie is a two-dimensional movie until the filmmaker wants to make it three-dimensional, you know, And that's a very interesting concept in a film that I've never played with.

You know, and so there was that. And there was also like those kind of composition that we kind of enhance the, you know, the arbitrarity of the framing, you know, that we sometimes went on that direction, you know. Like it was like trying to, again, post questions in the audience, kind of trying to, oh, you know, like this, you know, kind of enjoy the format, see the character in a different way, and also kind of, you know, being able to show a different reality that

it's not your conventional one, you know, and posing questions. At the end of the day, it's posing questions, throwing questions at the audience and see what sticks, what they, you know, how they come out with this, what are they, you know, what is their thought behind. And that's what I enjoy about this film is that it has a lot of different interpretations, a lot of different ways of understanding itself. And they are all valid, you know, in a way. You know, it's everyone's journey through it, you know. And at the end of the day, one of the main things of this movie is that when people watch it,

that they come out with questions. not always answers, that they want to spark a conversation and a debate of what happened, what exactly has happened, who did what, you know, and that's always a fascinating cinema for me, you know, to be doing it, you know? So, so it's kind of a joy to be a cinematographer and a dream and all those seven, six years of film school paid off when you do, when you're doing, when you're doing films like this, you know? So, so very grateful. I'm very happy to have done this movie. Yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's really cool to see like, like, like you're saying, like all those various, like black and white having such an impact on, or the story having such an impact on the

choice of black and white and like all those things you're just talking. It's fun to see all of that. Every element, you know, come together and layer itself. I like to end every podcast with the same two questions. First one, if there, if you can recall, it doesn't have to be the piece of advice, but a piece of advice that you received that really had an impact on you. And secondly, a film, obviously other than this one, that you think people should see or maybe you saw recently that you really enjoyed. And yeah, piece of advice, you know, it's not the best piece of advice, but it's one that always stuck with me.

And when I was a film school, you know, I'm going to film fair. I met the boss of Panavision, London, who is an amazing guy, Hugh Itoka, you know. And we were at one of these Panavision parties at Cameramash, and, you know, and I was a young kid studying filmmaking, you know, having done nothing. And he looked at me and he said, look, there is one thing, you know, of all the filmmakers here, you know, I can tell you that some of them are good, you know, all the ones that made it to the top, you know. and they are good, you know, they are good people. They are really trying to be good people. I'm not 100% sure that this is true, but I would like to, you know,

I would like to think that, that you know, to make it to the top, one of the things that, you know, we all need to be is good people, you know, good person, trying our best. You know, it's difficult sometimes, but I do, I do like that idea of, you know, It's not only the talent.

It's not only, it's also like, you know, getting along with people, you know, being a collaborator, being a team player. There's a lot of those elements that play an important role in filmmaking to me, you know? So. Yeah. And it's easier to be kind than mean, you know?

Meanness sticks with you. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, with a bit more experience than 15 years later, I've seen some mean people make it to the top. But it's the exception, it's the exception. It's like there's a lot of good, you know, good people that made it just also, you know. And one of the things was not their time was that they were kind to others.

And that's how they, you know, they are making good movies, you know. So I do keep that piece of advice is an important piece of advice to me, you know. Not that it's always true, but it's like it's a be, it's a good way to try to be at least, you know. Yeah. And then a film that you would recommend people see? Yeah, I have a list. I mean, just the second views. I have a list of the last ones I saw that I like. For sure.

For me, the best movie that has been done in the last years is not even of the last two or three years. It's not a movie. It's a chapter of Lovers Rock, Steve McQueen, you know, on, you know, small acts. You know, it's a movie, but it's a chapter of, of a series. The second chapter of a small ice, Lovers Rock for me, it's like, it's filmmaking at its core, it's an experience, it's the best party. You, I had been in the last two years, definitely with COVID. So it's like a, so it was, um, it's just so beautiful, so thrilling, so subtle, so rich, so anti-racist. So,

so many things that is that is just like it would be definitely my biggest recommendation is and you don't even have to see the whole series. If you, there are separate chapters, separate those episodes and lovers rock for me it's, it's

you know, the movie that I will have loved to have done in the last year, for sure. Sure. Yeah, you're actually the second person to suggest well, the other person suggested small ass as a whole, but Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I love as Molyx, but Lovers Rock is just beyond.

I also like, I know this much is true, the Mark Rufalo series, right? That direction of Francie did, it blew my mind. I love that whole series, and I think it's one of the most interesting pieces of cinema that has been done in the last year. well i mean it was i enjoy every single beatle of it and it's my blog but you know it's like it's always difficult to judge and qualify filmmaking you know so see and you know i have so many other movies i love i love people i love the climb i love i don't know like um yeah uh baby teeth you know so many are good and they are out of the beaten past you know and i it's also beautiful to

discover movies that are not the usual ones you know so anyway next time I'll suggest more well for sure awesome well thank you for spending that extra time I really really enjoyed that conversation I'd love to have you back on maybe talk about maybe some you're making in the future but obviously like a way back and buried and stuff and talk about your movies anytime yeah I'm very happy to talk and thank you so much I really appreciate and yeah it's a pleasure

absolutely awesome thank you cool well we'll talk to you later then yeah thank you so much frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me

Kenny McMillan and distributed by Pro Video Coalition our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F at Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company you can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocolleation.com

or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.