Frame & Reference Podcast - 37: "Titans" & "The Lost Symbol" DP Boris Mojsovski, ASC CSC

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Welcome to Season 2 of Frame & Reference and Happy New Year! On this first episode of 2022, Kenny talks with cinematographer Boris Mojsovski, ASC CSC. You might now Boris from his work on the HBO Max series "Titans", the SyFy show "12 Monkeys" and the Peacock series "The Lost Symbol." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this, the second season of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and if you're brand new to the old Frame and Reference, this is a cinematography-based podcast. For the first season, I was only speaking to cinematographers, but now going into season two, I've decided to widen the landscape a little bit and speak to, you know, production designers, directors, colorists, other people who have influence on the overall look of the film. This will still be a cinematography-focused podcast, so when I talk to those people, we will be talking about, you know, how they interacted with the cinematographers, what those relationships look like, how their jobs intertwine and stuff

like that. But we will be talking to more than just cinematographers because I think a wider scope is prudent, especially, you know, when a podcast gets going and is successful, you need to widen the scope a little bit. Throw out a wider net. But today, to kick off season two, we are talking to Boris Muzovsky. He is the DP of Titans on HBO Max, the, you know, DC superhero show. and Lost Symbol on Peacock, the Dan Brown show, or based on Dan Brown's books, rather. But Boris is awesome. This is one of my favorite talks.

I feel like I say that every episode. This is one of my favorite talks I've ever had. But they just keep getting better. You know, we're a little philosophical, which is always awesome. And, you know, towards the end, when we really start talking about the shows, quite practical. So you get the best of both worlds in that case. Um, Boris is an ASC and CSC member, by the way, I should throw some respect on his name.

Uh, I didn't earlier on. And yeah, going forward with frame and reference, uh, this season, I think we're going to have an amazing time. So, uh, if you're new, welcome. Uh, and if you are a longtime listener, thanks for coming back. So yeah, let's, uh, kick off season two with, uh, this discussion with Boris Moisovsky. USC. Well, so the way that I like to get started with any of these just to introduce the audience is just asking, how did you get started in cinematography? Like what was your, not your career path, but what got you interested in images? I know you kind of uniquely had a sort of a lineage

of image makers in your family. Well, my dad was a cinematographer, director as well. And he, I spent a lot of time on film sets. And it's funny when you spend a lot of time on film sets as a kid, well, at least for me, that didn't result, it didn't kind of like computers. Like I didn't want to be a filmmaker because I spent a lot of time on film sets. I didn't want to actually be a filmmaker because I saw that it was hard work. And it was a little bit chaotic.

And I remember being cold all the time. For some reason, I remember those experiences. But so I always wanted to be a writer, and that's what I was kind of doing. And, you know, this filmmaking world was something that my dad did. And I was, you know, I knew all his buddies and friends and, you know, people he worked with. And then eventually, I, but I always had a camera, and which was, I don't know how I was of that, but I always took pictures. And then eventually later on, you know, I was kind of pushed to by my wife to or what my girlfriend in time.

But like she really, she thought that I could do well as a filmmaker. And there was this kind of impossible film academy to get into. They had so many applicants and it was so hard to get into whatever. and she said you should apply i did and i thought i wouldn't stand the chance but i got in and that's where i started thinking like you know maybe i can be a film so and after that after that i you know i kept taking pictures and you know i started i started thinking like like i was trained to be a cinematographer so just you know my photography background maybe allowed for me to translate stuff into the cinematography realm maybe yeah that's uh interesting he came from

a right uh kind of a writing background because i so i came from just being a fan of movies you know i didn't have any like connections which i think is probably most folks uh and i thought i thought i thought i wanted to be in charge of the image like that's what got me in a synoptority come to find out i wanted to get into props i liked what i was looking at at. I didn't realize, I didn't, but the thing that was hardest for me, like, becoming a cinematographer was like learning what the language, like the storytelling aspect of imagery, you know, did that help you at all? Or were they kind of separate brains? Well, it's interesting. It's not separate brains. I don't, how do I make this super to the point

and simple i um we got an hour pretty good it's it's interesting how filmmaking is nowadays that there there's this whole talk about storytelling as the main element of filmmaking and that's fine in the narrative you know in the narrative cinema or television etc it's fine i don't know if it's a i don't really know if it's the main thing because the the What would separate cinema from other arts is all the other things. The story is just one of them. Story is just one of the things that you put in there. And you don't have to.

And in fact, you know, originally, I mean, cinema really corresponds much better to poems than to really, you know, a straight narrative of a, you know, like a regularly structured story. But we do communicate. in cinema mostly in through the dramatic structure of a story so so the images convey similar in story but what i think is very interesting is uh or what i find the most exciting it's like you know when you watch uh a tree of life and where the images and the story are actually at a disconnect until they come together they they like kind of complete each other and then they go away again

and you're putting that drama the drama's happening in your brain your your your heart in your soul putting it together. And then the story and the images together create a cinema. And I think that's essential. And I believe in that, truly. So I don't think that images tell a story, but the images and the story together creates cinema. I think so.

Yeah, yeah. Like, that's a good point because I think like watching films, I obviously like gravitate towards, I try not to do the analytic, you know, people always ask like, since you're a cinematographer, or do you just, like, judge a film the whole time? It's like, only if it's bad. Like, if it's, and I don't mean the cinematography even.

I mean, well, unless it really stands out. But, like, if the story is bad, then I have time to judge or even, even if it's good story or a good cinematography, bad story, then I have the time to, like, sit there and go, like, well, the lighting's good. But if it's all together, you know, you're not sitting there thinking about it. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. You know, but there's also a thing.

Cinema is so unique in cinema, television, you know, whatever it is now. It's like, is it, is it not? Like, you know, I, I kind of like, no, I like, I like to think that you can have, I mean, let's say, breaking the waves, breaking the waves is a fantastic film that doesn't look good, but it doesn't look good, not like it's bad cinematography. No, it looks appropriate, but it looks really rough. it looks you know like you take that and apply it to something else well that that would not be appropriate it has to be appropriate so the image can be ugly but appropriate so i think what you were talking about and i think about this all the time when you when you look at a film and you're out of it and you start analyzing it that's because the film doesn't work and the story if the story

worked fully and these images were appropriate for it you wouldn't care if it's poorly shot because that poorly shot thing was fitting for that story or with that story even better, right? So it's such a fine line of, you know, some things that I look at on the second or third viewing and I think, okay, well, I would shoot this differently. Why does this, why is this not maybe great cinematography? Or why is it great cinematography?

And I think, what if it wasn't, you know, what would that be? And then I realized that an entity of film, you know, can only happen once through somebody's, you know, a collective eye of all the filmmakers, whatever. And then it can be maybe there might be a variation that redos that, but that's rare, right? I mean, there's some instances of that. But does it, when it works, it works for some kind of magical reason where it doesn't have to be the best, it doesn't have to be the best story. Because you can take story of Godfather, like the story of Godfather is a very simple story, but the film is very complex because it's about morality. It's about all these things that the story wasn't. But there's a film, together with these images and this story, as close to perfection as it gets, right?

So I love kind of thinking about philosophically about why cinema has those unique properties, because it works on an emotional level, not just on the story level. not just in the visual level that's yeah so this is something i think about a lot especially recently i think people can over analyze and try to make a perfect film you know a correct film let's say and uh recently i've been thinking a lot about how much of filmmaking how much cinematography or just the movie in general is feeling you know like maybe something isn't right but it feels correct and i think right now we kind of are in a society where uh we a shoe feeling for technically correct in many forms not just art but kind of in general and um i'm wondering kind of it because it's so undefinable i'm hoping you can now define it um where how do you think

is it just practice being able to have a set skill and then learn how that makes you feel and then kind of forget it and just trust yourself to know that what you're doing fits everything or you know how do you how do you kind of navigate that mental sort of quagmire well it's it that's that's that it thing you know that that's the magic i think uh and um as young cinematographers right like we look and analyze things and we learn to you know do this and that and then slowly but But surely you realize, like you're told that, you know, the bigger the source, the closer that source is to the subject, the softer that light will be. Okay, well, you're told that, you can think about that, you can do all of this, but then one day, and that's kind of relatively simple concept, but one day, that clicks and you see it and you realize it. Now you realize that you can actually push that and make it triple the size, and it's going

to be equally soft, and then you can do a move, and then clicks, and then that's the easiest thing in the world and now you're not thinking about it now you're using it right and so but that now you know when you get to a certain level where where there's many things like that that click right whatever or what does it mean to you know move the camera without a tilt or where the dolly or whatever the crane brings you and the camera's nodal and all the lines are in painterly perspective and all those important things to me but all those I could have known about but I didn't know how they fit or how to apply them right and then the moment you're not thinking about them that means you understand them you know and and it also means that maybe half

maybe 40% of what you do and you think you understand you also don't understand but it's happening but you're allowed because you understand the majority of it so so it's kind of like that magic tops magic like you know like you just the magic keeps multiplying and that's beautiful And then at some point you start talking about how like none of that technologically matters.

Well, it does because you could have never done any of this if you didn't understand it. And then you start, you know, applying or thinking about philosophically, then you start

maybe the deduction of things that you start maybe going against the norm, maybe you reduce everything to its essence. like, oh, these things, now you're experimenting. And then now you can, you know, like like a painter, you know, Picasso could draw a perfect rabbit.

But then from that perfect rabbit, he, you know, like you wanted to show a human-based form in a three-dimensional image on a piece of paper or whatever. And so he completely dissected what that rabbit meant once upon a time, right? So to get all that, he needed to know, how to draw that rabbit realistically. So we all need to know how to draw that rabbit. Otherwise, we are faking it. I think it's very important to know how to draw a real rabbit, like realistic

looking rabbit. And then that rabbit can be super abstract after that. And once you understand the rules of that, then you're really free to do whatever you want. And then that feeling comes then, then I can walk into that, you know, the room that you're in and, you know, turn everything off and just expose for those blinds behind you and say, this is, this is what I feel here. Those white walls will fall like, you know, there's going to be enough of the range by the time I see on the couch or whatever. And I'll be confident in that. And then with that confidence, with that confidence comes a special image.

Because you watch Dune. Dune is technically perfect, of course, super imagine, like, but everything feels right in Dune. There's no, there's nothing that stands out. everything goes together. So, so, you know, Greg Fraser and and Villeneuve and all these guys, you know, obviously a million people around them, they kind of, the symbiosis happened because they're all on that level or similar level where they like, all their knowledge kind of came with them, like there's a pyramid, like there's a peak

and that peak made that, you know, beautiful movie. And that's what we're all striving for. Does that make any sense? Absolutely. No, absolutely. You're totally speaking my language here. on a on a sort of a more technical level almost you know like famously gordon willis had to you know scared the shit out of everyone all the producers on the godfather because uh everything was dark and topless and we can't see his fucking eyes um have you ever run into a situation where you're like no this this is the feeling we're going for and you had like higher ups that maybe didn't know the art we're like no no no it has to look like this because this is going to sell or anything like that yeah listen uh i think i've been lucky to only have i had only one situation where somebody was tv show um and my look was tweaked uh but i've been lucky my whole career where like i would and listen it also comes with like lucky comes with being brave being bold being like believing in what it is right where you go well i understand this you're

pick something superhero whatever uh television series or action series but i really think they should all be silhouettes and this is why i'm doing it and also kind of doing that with such confidence that nobody can question it right and then uh but you got you got also kind of get there and then believe in yourself and i i don't think there is in television in general and people might hate that i'm saying this there's a lot of safe um doing, you know, like let's do it. Let's also cover this and this so we'll see later views, but who's we

who's going to do it later? Who are these people? Who's making the movie? You know, like that question is like so weird in television because we will do something that's called coverage, coverage is a weird word, you know, like there's no coverage in doom. There's a shot that

needs to be in this scene and there's the next shot is this and only those shots are the shots for this scene. There's no 10 more alternative shots and that's why that's so good but sometimes we make television we want it to be like doom but we do it the opposite way we also cover it so somebody somewhere will also try this this and this it's like well that wasn't our intention we shot we gave it like we you know who we all have faults for things not kind of working out the way like so i saw you know that one

instance, when my look was changed, I'm to blame. Because I didn't realize what kind of show I was on. I was pushing something that maybe wasn't right. Maybe I wasn't confident. Like, I can find faults in me for that. So you need to, therefore, need to be super honest with yourself first, then do something that's brave or not. Like, you know, darkness is something I like. I always have very dark things. People, every network, every studio always comments that, you know, something's too dark and then we kind of go okay well this is why this is what we're trying to do we prepare what we call a visual manifesto visual manifesto is like how something's going to look with the reference and everything so we go well no this is the philosophy we're going for we adjust from there

if we need to but you know all of a sudden we're not going to make it super bright etc like we stand behind what we decided to do and i think that's very important that's how you do something special because we wouldn't have the look of Godfather, which therefore influenced the look of like a gazillion things after, if Gordon wasn't confident, stubborn, and so good. You know, that's what we need to be a little more. And, you know, it's easy to say, well, it's television. We can't do that.

No, yes, we can. Yes, you might know examples of many television shows that do that, and we like that. So if we like that, why are we making whatever our show differently? No, we should make what we feel. feel, you know, or what, you know, we all, and we feel, it's like, there's a bunch of people that need to be on the same page, but you also have to figure out as a cinematographer, how to get those people on the same page or on your page that, you know, that you're trying to kind

of like, you know, push so the show can be dark brown and top lit with no eyes, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Like, the coverage thing's kind of funny because, uh, undoubtedly they're trying to, you know, cover their ass and that's the real coverage and sort of save money, I guess, you know, we don't have to do research. We need to make sure we get everything here. It's like, yeah, but you're spending, if we know we got the shot, you're technically spending more money to keep shooting something. Like, you're keeping every one here longer. You're still, you got maybe rent longer, whatever, you know. So it's kind of like, you know, cutting the bottom off a blanket and sowing it to the top. But the other thing that you mentioned about recognizing

within yourself. Was the look tweaked in post, or did they, like, tell you, no, we're moving that? Well, I was in a particular instance, actually quite nice people that I was working with. And we arrived at this, like, really advanced look with the show around, like, it was a 70s movie and all that. Like, look, the movie wasn't in the 70s, but the series wanted that feel. And we arrived there and together and all of that. And then, you know, like the usual, they said, there is it a little. dark and the answer is no no

that's what we want but the answer was unfortunately yeah we make it a little brighter so then it came to me and like well we don't want I don't want to make brighter this is what we talked about so eventually I had many warning signs and in the end they made it a little brighter was it a disaster no

was my version much more appropriate for the for the series probably but there it is like it happened to me once I think it has to happen to everybody so so i learned from that i was like well look what i was trying to do on a network show like yeah who's to blame there like me because i didn't realize this is a main network show they will

not go for all of that so i needed to maybe fill a little more you know like whichever way to get my way but you know make them feel like they're getting the look that's safer i guess right well and so that brings me to what my point was going to be uh you might notice in our time together that I have a habit of starting one question and then qualifying it with a different one and then coming back to it. That's all good. I'm sure the listeners over a year now are fucking thrilled with it. But the friends in my life certainly are.

Something that I, you know, everyone I think matures at a different rate, but one point where I could tell like, all right, I'm, I don't think I have like. not a youthfulness. What am I trying to say? Like an uneducated energy or something like that was when I learned how to not be defensive when stuff like that happens, recognize like you were saying, oh, these are some things that I did wrong. And still being able to say like, and that's what they did wrong. Like you can, but, but starting with what could I have done differently or like how could I have managed that? So in a lot of cases, you know, you'll, I've found that, um, working if you're working for a network or whatever being like okay i know i now know what they want what can i do to kind of trick them into doing what i want you know or and have like a backup plan to give them their thing if they needed but like try to sneak my thing in there and like that was that was very uh helpful to me as a person i don't i just isn't talker yeah i mean listen It's interesting, I guess it's because my background, like, you know, my Bosnian stubbornness or whatever, like I'd like to be as straight up as possible.

And I'll often in the interview stage to get a job, I'll say, this is what I'm about. So I don't think you want me if you don't like those things, you know, and I think that's very fair to myself, but more importantly to them. And you can't, you know, I don't advise young cinematographers who go do that very straight up because you need to get some jobs to kind of get like you got to judge that. You got to hurt. Yeah, you know, and you feel it when you can't do that. But being honest, being honest and being truthful is very important because then you carry that same thing how you light, how you frame, how you direct actors, how you write, whatever you

you're doing. You're carrying that same thing. It's a very anchoring good thing. So you're never, you're never, you're trying to never, because we're all done what you're saying, and that makes sense. But then you're never actually going, oh yeah, I'll make this whatever. You know, I used to, a long time ago, I would give, you know, an example of like, you know, the frame, how I wanted to be, you know, colored, very desaturated. And then I would desaturated one more super like almost black and white and then i would saturate one like in a bad way and then i would show them done they would pick mine like that's manipulative and but i've done it you know as a young cinematographer so we were on the same but i don't i don't do like i now only in that manner if this is what i

see and then comments comments we talk we talk we talk because we were creating something and then then that's the honest truthful thing that we carry and once we we we all you know is like we'll evolve but that's what we agreed to. That's what we wanted. So I expect everybody to be as honest as me. And if they're not, well, then you deal with that. And that's okay. And that honesty, I agree with you.

And also that honesty gives you a position of not pride, but confidence. You know, you're not going out on a limb and trying something. It's like, this is coming for me. I know this. If it's challenged, I can back it. up and I know, you know, what I'm talking about in this instance. Very true. Very true. And it gives you calm. I mean, let's like, you know, we're kids, you're lying about something and it's a white lie, but like you feel like, oh my God, they

can read through your parents know that you bought candy for that money, you know. Like you never want to feel like deceiving somebody, especially in the world where you're like, there's so many elements to cinematography, directing television, directing, I mean, films, there's so many elements like the more the more you can take away from the complication of things of the process then why wouldn't you and i think that that honesty and truthfulness is like takes one big complication away less politics less everything you're just like you're there because well i have a crew like i work with the same is crew for like 15 years and we're all good friends and we all like we don't have to even talk about we used to talk about it but we don't anymore

So, like, all we care about is that frame, like that frame, whatever aspect ratio it is, whatever format, that's what, that's everything. Everything else outside the frame can be somebody's ego, bad idea, you know, politics, good idea, whatever. But within that frame is what counts. And when you do that, it's so simple. Do we have, you know, do we have issues? Do we have complications from you? Of course we do. But when you focus on that one thing, and everybody honestly wants.

that to be the best, it doesn't matter what it is then. It's just like the frame will be as good as we can make it. Totally. Kind of going back to something I wanted to touch on, was your background in photography. Did you have kind of influences growing up, or was it more of just like a sort of creative, just like snapping around or somewhere? Did you have kind of like a intent there? Well, my dad would give me, he, my dad really believed in uh in uh you know the like knowing technically uh knowing what one is doing it was very important in order to break the rules and whatever else you want to do um so he would give me assignments uh depending on my age you would give me a

give me assignments that are not unlike the assignments that you would get uh like photography academy or cinematography where he would say okay well you know an exercising day for night or or pictures with only three colors in them or I mean many like patterns or whatever it is and then you go for that and you know or portraits that are only with the 50 mill or just use 50 mil like there's so many of these things that you can do and it's fun and then then I would do that and then he would like I would print the photographs and he would take them and then take two pieces of paper and then like reframe them for me and go is this better Is that better?

You know, and framing was very important to him. You know, obviously, light, you know, why the light is a certain way, et cetera. And then, you know, at some point that came naturally to me. So, you know, that moment is actually the most magical photography. When you feel what the right composition is, that is so important. Like that, like, I envy every kid, you know, who will arrive that, you know, at some point soon as they're developing their, you know, picture taking. And you just feel that that's right.

And then you need to be able to explain why that is. But as you take that picture, you know, it's a good one. You know, like that is so good. And why? It really does. Like, I know exactly what you're talking. It's the way I've, like, you're just saying that, the way I kind of visualize it is when I'll be shooting something.

And when I, you know, chimp the frame or whatever, it for a second, I'm like, I don't think I took that. like it exists outside my creation like it's like too good you know like that's not do we frame this what you know nice yeah that exists in you know every day on set that it's like when we do something and like you look through a view finder it's good it's here and we think it's here and my operator joe or dave they'll go okay yeah that's you know we look through the we have a democratic tool we call it so it's called the the device just the night ride with the

Artemis and handles you know like that thing so we look at it somewhere there and then I come back in whatever five minutes just to check on whichever frame and you look and you go that's not like

every every like there every single intention and emotion everything like it's just perfect and it just makes you happy and then sometimes you come there and Joe would say to me it's never going to work.

Like, and it really, like, you look at, oh, my God, it's never going to work. And then we have this, Joe invented this phrase, apparently we, together, and this phrase, which is struggle, struggle, love it, which means we're going to struggle, and then all of us don't go, love it, love it, leave it, you know, big T-shirt. Yeah. Another thing that would be good to make, it would be just thinking about, like, your dad giving you assignments would be like a little, like, 36 point assignments like one role of film just to like just yeah I'm just

saying like to distribute to people you know just to put out there on the internet and be like here's like if you know one one role film school like you know there's 36 photos you should take do that because I remember I remember when I was in a I went to New York Film Academy before I went to college just on like a summer program and that was one thing they had us do is because we would have 400 foot rolls of 16 so whatever that was like eight minutes or something and they gave us like a shot list and they were like you know and it was simple stuff because it was always black and white so it was like under expose a stop under exposed two stops over expose this you know get a close up like that blah blah blah blah blah but it would be cool now that you mention it like we'll have to work on that we'll work on that later uh it's good but yeah um how does your Photography. So your photography, this is, I'm going to keep harbing on this because I'm fascinated. Because I started in photography as well, I suppose, but it was not a artistic endeavor. It was literally just shoot. I liked images and I liked taking pictures of my friends. And it was, but composition was completely out the window. I learned about lighting. Like, I think I bought my first flash like, like off camera flash, like six years into owning a camera, you know. I guess I didn't do photos first because I was shooting video before that.

But, you know, stealing the parents camcorder and whatnot. But photography and cinematography are like a Venn diagram where some things are the same. But there's a lot of photography. Like I've gotten in the habit, Tim Ives actually turned me on to a shit ton of photo books that he uses his reference. So I bought a bunch of them. And looking through them, there's a lot of stuff where I'm like, wow, this is perfect. And a lot of stuff, I'm like, no one, this would never. I mean, it shouldn't say never, but like, they don't immediately stand out as a cinema frame.

Roger Deacons' book, I just got Byways. I actually have two copies on action. Yeah, me too. And a lot of his photos do not look like cinema frames. You know, like, that's a different brain. How do you, how do those two things work for you in your head? Like, where do you, how do you approach those? Well, it's a difference between, I mean, it's very simple.

I don't think it's simplistic It's very complicated, but it's simple That's the difference between motion And a moment You know, photography's all by the moment And no matter what it is Like even if it's a landscape with mountains It's still a moment in time

That that was the photograph That is only seen through your eyes If you took it, etc. And then cinema that has elements of that Depending on what it is But the motion, the fact that there is motion of film through that camera, and there is multiple images that capture all these moments,

but together they create movement. That's all the difference you need to know to understand that one photograph versus many photographs that create meaning is a big difference. And that's the difference between cinema and photography and also the function of photography and the function of cinema are very different. I think they're both forms of art, fine, of course, and, but, you know, cinema is a, or television or whatever, make a, you know, melange of things.

Yeah. It also evolved, just like photography did, photography, like, you know, everything is photography. It's not having a picture of your dog jumping in the snow is photography with your phone. But Ansel Adams is photography, too, right? So they're in the same, but they're not, like, it's not really the same thing. Same thing with, you know, television and film, etc. Where that, you know, artistic medium that, you know, becomes also an informational entertainment, which the word entertainment, because it's the entertainment industry first.

Well, you know, drama, theater, therefore cinema, etc. Like, it's all meant to be a discussion on a theme, something that happens in our lives, and then we all discuss it through art, painting, whatever. Well, when you say that it's entertainment first, they obviously evolved or went into a different direction that takes it away from its maybe, you know, into essence. And that's what happened with both photography and cinema in some ways. But we're still talking about things that are essentially cinematic, for example, in cinema, which is, you know, like you can't say that, you know, I don't pick something like, you know, a fincher film is always very, very, very. very cinematic equally to a fincher series. You know, like that's, you know,

or a photograph that is a full recreation or something seemingly real, and something that's a real moment that was captured. Both of them are, like, come back to that as essence of a moment. You just recreated one and then captured it, and the other one is you have to steal it, steal that moment. um they they are very different they depend on each other and uh i i think most cinematographers my dad always said that and i i i never i don't know if i ever understood

fully until maybe recently but my dad was always saying like most cinematographers don't make good photographers because if they're good cinematographers the brain and their souls but now things very differently because the purpose of that of cinematography is different than the purpose of photography yeah yeah because like a a portrait is often very different than a close-up but could off like a you know movie or whatever but could be executed nearly identically could you know like I would love to see just as like an exercise there's although he did do it do you know Dan Winters the photographer I'm not sure look up Dan Winters he's a very

unique lighting style and I think he only shoots I can't see he probably doesn't only shoot film but does a lot of you might you'll probably recognize really he's been hired for a lot of editorial but he his lighting style is so unique that I've always thought like if this guy shot a movie this would not weird if he did it the same and not like cool but like very hyper stylized kind of not like a Martin Scholar kind of like craziness but but then he did he made a short film but it's like mostly like animated and stuff. And from the,

I haven't seen it. I would love to interview the man, but it looks like he didn't do his traditional thing. He did more of like a, you know, cinematic lighting and stuff like that. And I was really fascinated by that. That he would not, not that like it was surprising,

but that he kind of stuck to a more traditional. Well, yeah, because the media kind of carries that message, right? Yeah. It makes sense. It does make sense. There are,

however, there are photographers. Or even more interesting, they're painters that I'd love to know how they would make a movie. Like what movie would look like if they see the world that way. You know, how do you translate that into something, you know, seemingly realistic, which is the lure of cinema too. But how would, I don't know, like, you know, how would they make it? So, I don't know. Yeah.

That's fascinating. I reference paintings more than photographs. You know, that is something that a lot of the people I've interviewed have said that it's more, and I, and I thought about that too, like, and I wonder if it's, because the painting is like the ultimate artistic expression of not only the artist, but light, like, it's fully controlled. Like I'm sure you've been in a situation where you're like, I just want to tweak that just a little. Then you kind of have to go with it because you don't have time or budget or whatever. But a painter has theoretically all the time in the world to get that

light slash, you know, the Caravaggio kind of thing going perfect. It's like to them, you know, whatever they meant to do. And that's a complete guess. But I'm wondering if that's kind of the part of it is I think that's why cinematography. and painting has, like, I believe in those similarities, because both recreate the world in many ways from scratch. I mean, sometimes, you know, obviously we shoot something in our real location, but we still manipulate it

from this angle, that angle, with this light of that or that light. But it's a painter really chooses the moment and recreates it fully because it doesn't have to exist, but cinema is like that too. Like none of this exists until that camera rolls. And, you know, then we shape the light and whatever. And all those external things of time and ability, et cetera, granted. But when you eliminate them, we actually do quite similar things to painters

because we completely recreate. Not that the photographers don't because there are some that do that. And that's the cool part, of course. So it all is related. I don't know. Maybe that's, I don't know why. You know, when you look at a painting, what happens to me, at least, I really look beyond the painting, or I feel beyond that painting, right? Because you look at it and you imagine what that world is like if that person got up from the window in the rainbow and painting and went up those stairs, what's up the stairs, you know?

And that becomes a movie then. Not that you don't again do that in the photograph, but I find that the paintings are maybe by what they are, by their medium. maybe they have to carry even more magic. I don't know if that's shallow thinking. No, no, you know, that brings me to an interesting thought. I have a theory

that a lot of people because you know, there's that right now, especially in the kind of let's say indie world or like newcomer sort of world, let's say. There's this voracious appetite to make things cinematic. And I

think that the rise of better and better cameras has made cinema harder to achieve because it's now too realistic. And I think a photograph is fairly realistic. I mean, like, in the sense of the image, right, a painting is expressive. It leaves room. It's imaginative. And, you know, we see plenty of people. who will make films and you throw some filters on it, you know, you fuck with it in the

in the grade or whatever. You try to take away the reality. You try to muddy it a little bit so that it's not so, you know, people always say like, oh, we want people to be fully immersed in the movie. And it's like, no, you don't. Because if someone was murdered in front of you, you'd be horrified if you were fully immersed. You want them to be to buy into the store.

You don't want them to be like locked in. It's not a documentary. Yeah. And so maybe that's like the painting thing is like it's enough a way that you can really buy into it. You can create the world, you know, in your head. Yeah. Well, they're, you know, and we're off and not to that painterly feel. Right.

And then, you know. So actually probably should talk about the show that sent you over here or the shows, I guess. Um, do you work with Frazier like a lot or is it just so happened that YouTube shot two series together? Uh, well, I, um, I was, um, I'm talking to him tomorrow. Oh, cool. Cool. Uh, Frasian I met a while ago. He's, uh, I was a little bit of a mentor, Fraser. And then when, um, you know, as we progressed with, uh, with various shows, he started doing second knew this force was when he started shooting and then more and more. And Frasius were talented guys.

So at some point in season two, two of Titans, he shot the episode to, he shot the episode I directed. And then when came to season three, Brendan Stacey, who alternated with me previously, he moved on and I thought Frazier was ready. to take the next step and he was definitely ready, more than ready. And then same thing with Langdon. You know, we got, sorry, with the lost symbol.

We got to, we had a lot of friends on that show to produce, et cetera. I was still on Titans. And Frazier was finishing earlier. So I said, listen, you guys, let's go. Let's Frasier comes over. I'm still in Titans. Then I come over, like we made a complicated

a deal but it really worked out so so we are we love working with each other and it's a it's a lot of fun he's a very talented kid yeah i uh i have a confession and that is when titans first came out i was like oh that could be cool and then reviews are coming out like it is cool and i was like i well fuck it i'm going to watch it and then i am the worst at getting on tv shows like watching tv shows so i didn't so uh so but uh i just watched i picked an episode i was just like you know I'm going to go through here and just grab one, just watch it, see what we're talking about. And I picked the Red Hood episode because I had seen the animated movie. And I come from, I was trying to find something I might remember, because I come from the kind of Batman original animated series era.

I didn't really watch Teen Titans. Love the sort of vibe, I guess, of the show that, you know, more mature, like. like superhero kind of it doesn't quite feel like a superhero show necessarily even though there's very superhero things about it um i will say so i have to ask did you shoot red hood i don't think i shot which one's red hoods that that's the one where uh all the people are being done up in red hoods and like they bomb oh yeah no Fraser shot that so that was the thing that suck. So on the IMDB, it says you both shot everything. And then about halfway through

the Red Hood episode, I'm sitting there and I'm like, I just realized, I don't know if he shot this. And then it got all the way through to the end. And it said, like, cinematography by Frasier and I was like, shit. And that's okay. We have a similar, I mean, he, Frazier, you know, adopted the style

that we shot the show with so he could be more, you know, capable and he upgraded. So, so yeah, it's fine. We should be a very similar way. Right on. So I'll have specific questions for him then, but it was funny in the opening scene of that show, because I was watching it like kind of analytically for the interview. First thing I saw was like 18 Titan tubes on top of this, you know, center table. And I was, and I was like, ha, Titan tubes. Stupid. Because the show is called Titans. but kind of something that I noticed about at least the episode but I assume this is kind of

through the show is there's a lot of mixed color temperatures is that what's kind of the approach there and how do you balance the realism of the show with this sort of hyperrealism of it being a comic book or superhero adaptation well it's interesting also because from the When we did the pilot for the show, a bunch of people, Greg Walker, a showrunner, Greg Berlante, a producer, and then Kiva Goldsman, Jeff Johns, and a bunch of other people were talking about what the show wants to be. I don't know if it's a bunch of other people, but a few more people in there. Brad Anderson, who directed the pilot

and myself, and we'd be like, okay, well, what should this show be? And we all kind of brought the same or similar feel to it because we really wanted to be grounded. We wanted to be grounded so people feel for these characters in a good way, so they see their human side. And then, you know, eventually they'll fight in these costumes and their superheroes as you'll expect that they will have the drama about.

and will be not the drama of the superhero, but the drama of a person. And that's how the show was conceptualized and carried out. And, you know, the whole beginning of the show with the famous Fuck Batman line like that. That kind of was like a grounding line for us and where, you know, Robin and eventually Nightwing goes. But we, in the quest to be grounded,

we, you know, we knew that there are going to be certain, be certain aspects of the show that will feel like comic book because once everybody puts those costumes on it will feel like comic book and the costumes are great but you know that's a comic book you think right so um other than that we tried to make it as indeed looking as possible within this world and make it super dark because there was some very dark themes that were playing with so you know it all came together and it's you know we talked about it earlier it's one of those moments we start shooting day three we're in this

or two, day two in this police station and we're in Detroit police station decorations as a detective isn't that and then you just see around the monitor that everybody

is beyond loving what this looks like you know dark side to camera simple super soft lighting running his edge with a million titan tubes

and etc whatever like our setup's a huge but it's very simple and that's that was always my philosophy like that's always my philosophy of things how do you reduce everything to the simplest elements and you just see everybody and it's just we never talks about the look again because that look that was the look

and everybody was super happy about it I don't think we ever talked about how these such is something is how bright how green how like it was like we had fully like everybody on every level just loved it and that is magical too you know like that's one of those things you you really want the look evolved eventually a little bit here and there like going to san francisco in the second season and third season we're in um in gotham and you know like the first and third season are darker the middle season etc but uh all of that um was based on where well the story is going where the characters are and uh also based on a lot of experimentation in pushing the boundaries There's a show that's a, you know, we've been very successful in the, you know,

in the realm of awards, stuff like that for a show that's essentially a superhero show with the difference that we were set up to and allowed to be different and special. And, you know, that's amazing because that's what we were given. Like we were set up to succeed. So everybody who came in just followed the look, followed the feel. and it was easy. Speaking of the source is, it was always a thing to, like,

we desaturate quite a bit. And therefore, the mixing of the source, I really liked mixed sources, and I like the warm light to hit. Somebody was far from the windows. But I also, in the first season, well, in the second season, all the seasons.

It's a very cool, in terms of the spectrum, very cool looking show. So it does have the blue and cyan, mostly is prominent. It's quite desaturated. And there are various nuances in what light is allowed to hit where and how far light penetries into a room. And that has to do with like where they are psychologically,

where the character knows about themselves or other people, et cetera. So we play with that a lot. And light is a luxury in the show. light is like you get light when there is a reason that you're more visible less we we try we try to care for the characters to be in a lot of darkness because they are yeah yeah because the reason i ask about the mixed color temperatures is i uh personally have have in my professional career uh having been an amateur for a very long time um i i don't feel like i've nailed lighting yet. I don't know. Like on film it felt easier. I only shot motion film for a little bit,

but film photography. It felt easier to make sort of digital. It just feels so like in this setup, like if this light was warm, you know, exposing it, whatever, you know, at 43, it just still feels so drastically not cohesive. And I'm wondering how you approach kind of what your philosophy is to mixing the sources and how to make it all look like it's not suddenly artificial or contrived or whatever. Well, we, we, I try not to make it too much of a difference, first of all. And I also, I'm really into the look like we really cook a lot of that look on set. We have an onset color is who, that's going to be my next question.

Yeah, we don't do live color. I don't like live color, what they're in their own trailer making stuff. according in accordance to what we talked about and then we constantly revise it the whole day. Um, but, um, but we use a lot of desaturation. This saturation tends to bring all, all of that together a little more and Melangeline and I, I just don't, um, you know, we, we, if, if, uh, if a warm light on your right side there is, uh, from that lame, uh, sorry, my right, um, camera, right. Um, if, uh, if that, you know, if that, that, that's fourth.

then that window is 5,600, that makes sense to me. I would do something like that. Sometimes, I'd make that a lot warmer than maybe correct to that key and let the window go even for whatever reason.

But it's all about kind of finding those levels. So there's no there are extremes, but the extremes in color, I find in general, I find that too much color is you know

sometimes means that we didn't really refine and define the world so I think too much color is quite kind of can be vulgar you know you need to really strict color so they mean something like a color that's allowed to dominate

means something well just like with anything else really and we play with quite like our contrast is quite low it's just like our levels are quite low as well so it seems contrast but you see a lot in the shadows and such, which also helps that mixed, because our fill light when in existence, and we do have a little bit of it, is usually like if the key light is a little

warmer, then that feels a little cooler, you know, so those shadows kind of have that. And then we infuse a lot of cyan into the shadows and sometimes around the highlights with the warmth, let's say. So is it a very LED heavy show then because you're like constantly tweaking color temperatures all over the place?

Yeah, I don't know if we constantly tweak it. We do tweak it a lot, but it's extremely LED heavy. Well, only our big lights are like our 18s et cetera, are HMI. And everything is HMI based. Our studio as well,

which, you know, is expensive for the production. But it allows the most range because we like to be on the cool side of spectrum. And then it also allows for, you know, something that is a lot warmer to go even warmer depending on where you set the camera, et cetera. So other than those big H-MIs, everything is LED. It's Titan tube, sky panel,

heavy show with light man, the light gear light mats and light time. and the lights that we build I have a lot of lights that people who call them Boris lights because somebody when we built them the first time wrote Boris 1 and Boris 2 on the first two and then they became Boris lights but they're just

like it's 4 by 4 boxes and I didn't invent it but they're 4 by 4 boxes because I tried to figure out how to make a light that's an handly soft right away when you turn it on so the back of a 4 by 4 frame essentially is laced with a bunch of LED, like a good one, like I buy a really, you know, light gear

LED. And, and we, we, we, we then diffuse maybe, you know, whatever that is five, six inches from that, heavily diffused with white duvetine and layers, like we're crazy on diffusion. And, and then that box is kind of like, I can toss it to you, you can toss it back to me, so it likes, right? So we just lean, you know, wherever we need it. And then people can also grab it and we walk with the light a lot. If the camera has marks, actors have marks, lights have marks. And then you don't notice it in our show.

There's a lot of walking light. But they're big walking sources because a tiny source you can see, big giant source you don't see. And that's another thing that for young cinematologists, think about and try. Because when that seems, when you see that, like you have a big giant source and you walk everywhere and the light consistently stays the same on the face. that's what you want you don't know it you don't notice it when the source is figured yeah there's actually two things one uh the aha moment for me that was similar to that wasn't necessarily about

large sources but it was about i saw behind the scenes photo from fight club where they had a guy just holding a keynote tube over edward norton as he's going down the uh like the the flat moving sidewalk, you know, and it must have been like, I was still in college, and I just remember going, oh, you can move the light with them. No one's going to know that you're just carrying a light over it because in your head, you're like, they must have had a big light that went all the way down. It's like, oh, just had one little one. You just. Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's that proximity, right? Like how close it is to him. So all of a sudden a small light becomes big enough. Yeah, and I think it was like wagginged up.

You know, it had a bit of a diffusion on it. But the second question was going to be, I had taken a peek. I don't have peacocks, so I had to look up some clips. Here's the classic coming back around. I've looked before we get to Lost Symbol real quick. I looked up some behind the scenes from Titans that I'd found and going back to your idea of those massive sources. I think it was like, I think it might have been a clip from Red Hood, but the characters

that didn't make any sense. But they're out on a street. And yeah, I saw like a giant 12 by and a giant eight by. And then I think it was that box you were talking about. But I think it was like a six. And they were like walking around with it. Probably we have a, we name lights in weird ways. So there's a light called the Bosnian Shield, which is I think a light to know.

I think it's a four by two and a half or something like that. They'll laugh at me. So that's the smallest light we carry. carry and then from there like we we have something called the beaker box which is an eight by six again i'm not certain uh so we can put in those trains we can put a bunch of tighten tubes and then heavily diffused and that's on wheels so it can like on a downtown street they walk we go forever i think so you probably saw that and uh and then we go like further like as as we need and we get all the way to, and I did not invent this,

David Green invented this on monkeys when we shot monkeys. It's called Taj Mahal. We call it Taj Mahal, because it's the ultimate light. It's a gigantic, like, they build it to like 30 by whatever. A giant thing that they build on SCAP. And inside is like whatever you want, like three, three-sixths, through bounced.

And it's on these special pneumatic wheels. So when we have giant buildings, like we have several in Toronto, like this gigantic warehouse buildings will build four of those. And those not necessarily move in the shot, but you, you know, you shoot down the line this way and then you have to go further. Then this light just goes one around. And that's how you like the big space gets lit super, like, you know, four guys, four people. They push it.

Okay, we're lit there. We have perfect side. The side light is, I think. And then when you reverse, they just go a little bit that way. And you're lit super quickly, yet super softly. So we have, you know, the names like, you know, the Bosnian wedges are these things. In the studio, we have sky panels. And then we have intermediate diffusion.

And then another diffusion that goes like that has all kinds of, you know, maneuvers they can do. So we call that the Bosnian wedge. I don't know why because it looks like a wedge. check you know that's just to modify the softness like depending on where in the frame it hits yeah if you go if you go like that with the light and you bring another one straight down and then then this one you direct the light a little more or or you double diffuse or you lift it up if you don't want it you can be hard lifting both up so we we try to be creative with how we achieve things and we skirt everything we try you know what interesting about

Titans or anything we do is with this amazing crew, they can do it. We tried to give ourselves like three or four looks on stage for each set. So it's like, okay, fly this sublider, make it, you know, there's the H-MIs will go through supplement with a little bit of diffused sky panels from above. And then the next scene, take the 18s up on the motor and bring these other sky panels down on the Bosnian wedge. So it's soft and a little bit of a wrapping soft. now we shoot that scene

and it looks like it's raining outside whatever. When it's sunny, when it's raining. Just so the show has a little bit of a dynamic in time.

Yeah. I was going to, so the other thing I was going to say about lost symbol was just looking at clips and stuff. Obviously the two shows

don't look the same. But there are similarities. Like I could see sort of you in them. And I was wondering kind of what your, obviously every show's different and every shot's different.

But what kind of is your what is it possible for you to define that eunist that i'm seeing you know what what are you up trying to do when you see like obviously big soft keys something i i definitely noticed you know a good little scratch um here and there but obviously like you know the key the keys in uh or just the whole show in um lost symbol very warm whereas like you were saying titans quite cool but uh yeah like how do you kind of what's your generalized approach there that you're kind of bringing It's very simple. And it, again, once you arrive with it and when sits, if you like it, then, you know, applying it is all that kind of is left to do.

I truly believe that I work closely with designer. And I truly believe that the designer and I will edge the space with a million practicals you probably notice. like we have a gazillion of them. They will not really give light. They're edging. They're not about light. They are sculptures of light. But they give the edge to the space.

And then I'm simply there to super softly as close as I can with the biggest source I can to saw light the faces. And that's my mission. And I like facing everybody looks really good, but it looks very realistic. And, you know, like it's a matter of like just making the right ratio between the background for that that's all I do it's it's actually great you say that because that was a note I do my notes are on top of the teleprompter that was something I noticed was all of the practicals and where did I put it oh yeah there's yeah the question was how many practicals versus fixtures because another thing that I've noticed the more and more

that I've studied cinematography in my life but interviewing cinematographers is how important set design is not only to the light but to the look, you know, I've noticed a lot of younger cinematographers think that it all comes down to the colorist. You know, oh, that, you know, Fincher famously, you know, everything looks kind of green and like flat and stuff. It's like, yeah, but he shoots pretty clean. It's like everything is green on set. You know, the walls are green. It's he's not, he's not tweaking it, you know.

Well, I think it's crucial. I mean, listen, when you tweak it, you need to tweak it from a point that you understand and then tweak it to a point that you also understand. Sometimes you'll make one wall green, one gray, so when you take some green out of that, that's the gray is going to get, you know, a little bit of whatever magenta that you want, whatever the situation is. But, I mean, it's absolutely crucial. I think, you know, in a cinematic way of working, working with the designer is everything because you have to define what it is that we're all after and then work on.

these sets together by, you know, it's not about lighting, not about the looks, but all of that. We all have to be in that together and saying that, you know, there should be two more windows. It's just one of the things, but what's the feel of this space? Like all of this after the initial sketch or whatever the designer does, and then inputting these practices, then when you work with a new design, for me, it's always a, well, it's not a challenge, at the beginning, it's like, how do I say, when I say how many practicals I want in this set, they're going to think I'm insane. So I'm just going to make a joke. I always say, okay, here we go. We need this many practicals because when it looks ridiculous, it looks right. And that's

what we say, because, you know, you never actually pay attention to that. You don't know that there is 48 practicals in the frame. Not all in the frame at the same time. Yeah, plus that. And then once you develop that trust with the design, the magic happens, on the lost symbol and on Titans, I've never not been lucky with that. I have always been super lucky with that. And we really do it together. And, you know, they influence or they are to praise for the cinematography of a show as much as any as the cinema, as much as a cinematographer. And it should be also vice versa because we need to do that all together. then it's really good.

Then, you know, like, you know, that's why I give lighting plans. We always talk about lighting, the feel of it and how it's going to look, and then like a sample of this room could look like this. We'll light it like this. What do you think? So the wall actually should be a little bit darker green

because that window is going to, you know, allow a lot of light on that wall behind you on the right, you know, whatever. So we'll make that wall darker. That's super important, you know, to actually be prepared together. Yeah, I'll uh, I got one more super techy question similar to related and then I'll let you go because it again, it's been a few months. I was not looking at the time. Um, but what are you because I'm, you know, now that cameras are so sensitive without being noisy and, uh, we're often using LEDs that aren't necessarily the brightest or, you know, depends on the light, obviously. Um, lighting ratios can get kind of flattened out. What, what are you, what kind of contrast ratios are you generally aiming for and what tends to be your shooting stop?

Because, you know, I remember using like mole lights and stuff. Turn that thing on it. It's like instant F11, you know, that you had to then like bring it all down because it was just blowing out, you know, your sense or your film or whatever. But I did notice that that kind of gave the image that snap and stuff. And now everything kind of feels a little flatter if you don't massage it. Yeah. Well, when you, with our style, with the heavily diffused sources, where you can kind of not, you can not diffuse them enough in the way, like we double diffuse everything. We tend to work with kind of around T2, but it also depends on the lens, but I like my, I usually light to T2 and a half. and then i'll bring like if i shoot on the on the k35 which i love

uh then i'll tend that lens really works when it's wide open or almost wide open like that's the magic is there so so then i'll end the like i'll always end the outside i'll shoot inside outside the same style uh day night doesn't matter i'll bring it all down to that because i do like soft backgrounds um i don't actually i can't even like It's only a few times in my life that I think that a deep stock would do something good. I can't even. I'm probably not a purist in that sense at all. I don't like deep subs at all.

But, and then anamorphic lenses, which we shoot Titans, and we have to, like, it's kind of similar, well, similar lens package. We, on amorphs, we should. Orion's, right? We should, yeah, we shoot on the Atlas. an amorphics, and we shoot K-35s, and we also shoot on, like, a supercurrents, which I quite like. Yeah, I actually interviewed Dan Cain's, the guy who invented a few episodes ago. They're awesome.

Yeah, they're dope. That's the one thing. Shooting those wide open can get dicey, but... I don't. I shoot in a 2-8. That's like one of those, almost a little bit of an old-school thing, but the image, unless it's intended, can get a little softer. So, so I think 2.8 is kind of really optimal there.

Yeah. So what, so you're shooting it at a two, two and a half, but what are the lights metering at that stop? Like how much energy is going on there? I do. I like to that stuff. Oh, okay. Yeah, because one thing I've, and I don't know if this comes down to coloring, or maybe you don't have an answer for this, but there is a look. that TV and movies have just a just an extra thing and I don't it maybe it is just um you know using an Alexa LF and sick lenses and that but uh and set design but there's just

this little extra 10% that I can never put my finger on like why why does that look different and my recent theory has been what I was saying like the contrast ratios and stuff like maybe that's not what we're doing right or whatever but yeah it's just been something I've been thin. Do you even know what I'm talking about when you know that the difference I do. I do. I think ratios in general are crucial that that differentiates a good cinematographer or a great cinematographer or good cinematographer. It's all about those ratios with that background in how it actually respond or how it correlates with your face right now and why you know right now your face is much brighter than I would make it compared to that window.

Oh, it was brighter when I started. No, no, I don't. It's not a thing in a movie, obviously. But that's key, you know, to making something unbelievable. And that has to be a feeling. Like, you can't, you got to add right. And that's like one of those aha moments. And that's an advanced one because, you know, I see people like the right way or whatever.

It's like something that I can understand. I think they did it. their ratios were completely off. So, you know, you follow cinematographers, young, you know, like you give advice. I have some, you know, mentees and stuff like that. And, you know, you give that advice and slowly you see, oh, my God, they're just, oh, my God, they're getting, and now it's there. And then they really, like, take off because they figured out that crucial thing of the ratios,

which is, you know, where you separate the good and the great. I mean, I'm definitely still, like, feeling my way through it but how much um impact does the colorist now have on what otherwise would have been just like the film stock and and good lighting well a great deal i mean i i you know there are things i don't control on set now some things i don't um there are many things i think it needs to be you like i try to use it as a tool that enhances something and do something that you couldn't before you know like it's or you couldn't do it easily.

I mean, you know, the E&R technique or whatever, like where you put stuff in, like, detail in the shadow. Like, it's relatively easy to do. But knowing what to do and how much to do and how much to, how does that correspond to what your, like your lighting ratios is super important. And it's not that easy. Like the color is cannot, like,

your ratios are not where you want to be. Sure, they can help a little bit, but they can't save all. Like, you've got to get there. Like, you've got to actually do it right still. And then they can enhance it and make it magical. They can flatten your highlights. You know, I really enjoy, I don't know,

I enjoy using polarizers inside. Like the flat and dull highlight on the face. You know, we dark faces and dulled them to a great, so soft light becomes even softer. It's a little bit of an obsessive thing, but, you know. You can. and it's not like in resolve it's pretty easy you know circle track and it's like three seconds well it tracks it i mean compared to five years ago it tracks it i i'm like who that that's

possible too you know and it's crazy too because like i've had the same computer for five years basically a little little less than that but like you're saying like it used to take longer and the software's gotten so much better that now i don't have to upgrade my computer as fast because like it just works better now, which is completely the opposite of the way it used to be. Of what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah, I've really enjoyed calling it.

Being a DP now, like, at my level, is basically like, I had to learn to be my own colorist. Lord knows, I'm going to fix this now that we've talked about it. No one's going to see the wrong, the way that this just random Arielet looks on this thing. But, yeah, like having to learn out of color my own stuff. And it was a net benefit too because I can offer that as a service. You know, people have me edit things. I can just be like, well, I'm going to make it look pretty too. I'll let you go.

I like to end every podcast of the same couple questions. The first one being, what's a movie or sorry, first one being, what's a piece of advice that you either heard or read or was given to you that stuck with you, not like the most, but just kind of the first one that comes to mind, whether it be cinematography or life, just kind of maybe something that's constantly repeated in your head that you've was either given to you or if you've read or whatever. Well, there are a few. There are a few.

My dad gave me a lot of advice that still sticks with me. But when you were just saying, asking this question, I thought, the first thing I thought of is something that a person from this, from this post house many years ago as we were doing a short film on 35, we're all excited about that. And he was a colorist. And he said, you don't kid, if you're going to, and he was about to retire. And he said, if you're going to succeed in this business, there's only one thing you need to be. And you have to, you have to be able to do that. And I said, what is that? And he said, you got to be super stubborn. And And you know what, stubborn is not necessarily the best word for that, but you've got to be so persistent and stubborn in the sense of like, I'm going to figure this out, I'm going to do it, I'm going to fail, and I'm going to still get up and do it.

That's a super, super important thing. So I don't know if it's stubbornness, I think it's more persistence and belief in what you want to do in, you know, in cinema and yourself, etc. I think that's very important. Yeah, and then you become confident and you become all of these things. But at first, like, you're not really, like, you're learning. You're like, you just want to do it, you know, and people will try to stop you and you just have to be stubborn and continue, you know, so that, there you go. Second question is, I know we already talked about Dune and I think everyone just seen Dune.

I got to see it in like the Dolby, like the nice chairs and the whole thing, which the movie was just, because it's like the nice doleby, because it's like the nice Dolby, you know, over here at, uh, there's like a really nice mall over here. Um, and I had the rumble seats. The whole film was just rumbling. The whole film was just, just a roller coaster. Uh, but, um, what's a film that you think people should see? Doesn't have to be yours. Uh, just any film that you're, that maybe recently just like, yeah, just, you know, it may be one that has cultural significance, maybe one that's just fun. Well, I mean, that's a tricky, tricky answer.

Tricky question, sorry, tricky question, not a tricky answer. I think I do believe that I spoke to somebody recently about Underground, which is Amir Kussela, it's a film from 1990-something. And I think everybody should see it because it's a – And I mean of Chris is a director who makes live action films feel like cartoons because their action is almost impossible. And I, like, he's very unique in that. So I'd love for people to see. So it's not a recent movie at all.

But Dune is definitely like whoever hasn't seen Dune should see Dune because Dune is extremely special. Yeah. Well, awesome, man. Thank you so much for especially the added time. And I really thoroughly enjoyed that conversation. And hopefully we can have you back and talk more. absolutely thank you you're awesome good excellent question awesome thanks man frame and references an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me

Kenny McMillan and distributed by pro video coalition our theme song is written and performed by mark pelly and the effort art matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company you can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to pro videocoollition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively and as always thanks for listening Thank you.