Frame & Reference Podcast - 38: "Julia" and "Fauci" DP Claudia Raschke

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference podcast, Kenny talks to cinematographer Claudia Raschke about the documentaries "Julia" and "Fauci." You might also know Claudia from her work on films like "RBG" and "Coup 53." Claudia is a fellow Canon C500 MKII shooter, like Kenny, so make sure to listen if you are into some camera talk! See more of Claudias work on her Website and on her IMDb  Follow Kenny on twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we've got an absolute treat for you. Today I am speaking with Claudia Rushka. She is the D.P. of multiple films, but most recently, Julia, the Julia Child documentary, Fauci, the Dr. Fauci documentary, and also RBG, the Ruth Bader Ginsburg documentary. She's done more than that, but those three just bang, bang, bang, you know, all very timely as well. The first two for, or the latter two for obvious reasons, the Julia one is just more soul-soothing in a way, you know. I mentioned in the interview that, you know, food content kind of makes people happy. And in uncertain times, people watch a lot more food content. Anyway, Claudia is just so insanely knowledgeable. Her body of work is undeniable.

And in this conversation, I think we had a borderline illegal amount of fun. So I really hope that you'll, enjoy listening to it as much as I had. Enjoy listening to it as much as I had. Having it. Is that a good sentence? I don't know. Point is, this is a great one.

You're going to learn a lot. You're going to hopefully have some laughs with us. And I'm just going to let you get straight to it. So here it is my conversation with Claudia Rochka. Yeah, I love how at the beginning of everyone using Zoom, It was just like, record all you want. And then I get an email about a class action lawsuit, and suddenly you have to agree to be recorded. I was like, do I want that $20 bill?

You know, the way that I like to start all these podcasts, although I'm trying to think of a good way to like change it up for the new year because, you know, variety, spice life and everything. But I did look up. You said you started as a dancer. true you looked up what i did before huh i'm really interested to know like kind of how that started where you kind of went from there and how that maybe shaped your creative brain my girlfriend's a dancer oh okay okay uh what does she do does she do uh what jazz primarily but um you know like post jazz jazz jazz just what direction of jazz? I'm going to assume it's modern jazz.

Well, that's cool because I was very much into modern dance. So what happened was, well, when I grew up, I studied all the art forms, sculpting, painting, dancing, music. It was just something I was drawn to, but also because my family, was very invested in the arts, but only to a certain degree, dance was really not permitted until I turned 18. And that is really rough if you want to become a dancer because your career is over by the age of 35, right? Yeah. So, and it was not permitted because, you know, my great, great grandfather had some sort of affair with a vaudeville dancer. And so. So that was just like, you don't touch that topic.

But anyway, be that as it may, I love dancing. I was very much inspired by Gene Kelly and then decided that I wanted to study dance. And it was either Amsterdam or it was New York. And so I came to New York and then studied with Martha Graham, Eric Hawkins, Mary Anthony, I mean, all the greats. But when you want to become a dancer and you even find a troop to join. or you are invited, you know, you don't get any money. It's just really a breadless career until you reach a certain level. And if you're lucky, you get like $5 per performance and a handshake, you know.

So during my time, I mean, this is not 40 years ago. So when I... Well, that's a basketball deems to dance forth. And, you know, interesting, because of all my training in... dance. It is so in my life still because when I do handheld work, I constantly check my body position and I make sure that my entire frame is aligned because when you're doing 12-hour Veritas and you have the weight on your shoulder, and frankly, now the cameras are not as loaded and heavy as they used to be, but nevertheless, you know, gravity pulls on it, and over a period

of time, it's an endurance. And so, you know, I check all the time about how I align myself and how to relax my shoulder and my frame so that I can, you know, perform ultimately my best. And with that, You know, when you're trained as a dancer, it really influences, it influenced me by thinking about choreography. How do I move with the other characters in the space? What are my obstacles? Like, let's say there's a table or a couch or, you know, a horse or whatever it is. How do I move around maybe something unpredictable? And that kind of really fed into also my training when I did.

feature films, which I did for 10 years before I went into documentaries, because it's all about blocking. And the art of blocking is the art of choreography, where you come up with a way to ultimately have the cinematography be the subconscious of the story so that your visual strength or the visual storytelling is really maximized by moving through space. Because as you know, as we all know, you know, when you're watching a film, when you're watching your television screen or your computer, it's 2D. There's nothing 3D about it. So it's the art of choreographing the space so that you feel you're walking through it past edges, past objects, so that you get that sense. And so, you know, my dance, uh, uh,

training and that choreography that I, you know, learned and certainly influences me greatly these days. Still, after all these years. Yeah. Can you give someone like me who has horrific posture a few tips on how to like check in with your body? Because I know when I hurt, but I don't know when I'm correct. So it's really interesting because I also teach master classes at the New York Film Academy. And... Oh, I went there. Oh, yeah. Did the summer course.

Okay. Specifically for Cinema Verite, because when you're talking about Cinema Verite, it is really... You have to so spontaneously draw from your different elements. May it be lighting or the technical aspect of, you know, the optics and the exposure, the art of exposure, the art of when to rack focus, and all of the that in tune with staying connected with your characters and the story that you want to present, right? Because you are like the portal to what is happening. I'm basically the first viewer of all of the excitement. And so creating that portal is fascinating. But to come back to your question, when I work for a long period of time, let's say after half a day of shooting,

hand held, what happens is that your core muscles start to relax and what happens is that your backside, your butt, swings back. And so very often that is a stress relief. But you can also equate it with the posture of Donald Duck or Daisy Duck, right? It's like that putting your rear end backwards. And that is... Standing like a baby. And that is the key thing of making sure that you push your hips forward so that you align, you know, your entire frame. And then the other thing is that besides aligning your frame, you need to realize if you're swaying over to the right or the left, depending on how you're balancing the camera load and check it, you know, check if you are weighing left or right. And if your pelvis is pushed back. So once you align that, then you're already 80% there.

And then the last tip I would say is check your shoulders. Because sometimes when you hold the camera, so often you try to be very still and smooth and no wiggles. And so you're cramping to counterweight the inert motion that we have as humans. We always wiggle. We always move. That's part of breathing, right? Just breathe. Your heartbeat is going to be seen if you're on a telephoto lens.

Your breathing is going to be seen if you are anything, you know, further than a 50 millimeter. And so when you're cramping that way and do the shallow breathing, that just mentally checking in with that and saying, oh, let me relax my neck, you know, let me just. check my frame, make sure I'm centered, let me hold it, let me relax my neck. And then sometimes when I do that, I actually am my own chiropractor because while I'm having the camera, because it puts a certain weight on it, just two days ago, it went crackle, snap, pop,

you know, my neck just fell back into alignment. Well, that's good. I know, right? I was happy about that. I just recently went to the chiropractor for the first time of my life and did actually completely like fix some problems I had from years ago. But it wasn't from working. It was because, you know, the past two years have been what they were.

I just fell out of shape. And then I tried to do like some sit-ups and just completely threw out my hips. Just like a regular workout just completely threw me off. And I was like, all right, it's been two weeks. I can't walk. should go fix this. So now I'm very aware of, you know, trying to, or not, I shouldn't say aware, but I'm trying to get a lot better with posture and whatnot. Going back to kind of the dancing thing, again, from what I read, you were a photographer at the same time. Did you have kind of

influences or was that kind of a natural thing that you were just doing for fun? Or was that kind of like intentional in some way you know quite unintentional because i was uh um exploring so many different art forms photography was one of it and especially because i printed myself and so i you know did a lot of experimenting with uh putting sand on the photo paper and then you know kind of uh different kinds of exposure with dots and and you know kind of shaping it was more in alignment with doing my sculpting work. I did do some work with stone as well as with clay. And so it felt very similar. I like the tactileness of the whole process. And yeah, you know, I loved it. I mostly did black and white. And so when I came to the United States, of course, it was one of my go-to thing to

just capture what I would see. And that week, you know, it was like, I think it was 1982 or 83 there was like this massive water pipe that that burst in downtown Manhattan and I just happened to be waitressing because that was one of my ways of how I could survive being a dancer and so I took all of these puddle photos that were reversed and so the trucks that were driving through it all of their you know advertising and the signs were upside down and backwards and it looked like as if it was in a different country. And so it was just that kind of playfulness. And I, you know, I showed my photos to my colleagues at the restaurant, my co-workers, and we had a part-time bartender who was

also a part-time cinematography teacher at Columbia University. And he saw my photos and he was like, oh my God, you have such a great eye for composition. you know, have you ever thought about cinematography? And I don't like, I don't know what that is. Sorry, you know, I really have no clue what is it. I feel like, I love French. And it was like, you know, here I was on the path of being a dancer. And somebody opened the window to the side and saying, hey, look out here.

This might be interesting to you. And so I pretty much went just like Alice in Wonderland through that rabbit hole. and never left. And, you know, it is my, from that day on, and this is 40 years ago, I basically, I went on set. It was transformational for me to see how my dancing, my sculpting, painting with light, being part of a team, which is also the same thing

when you're a dancer, all kind of came together. And then and there, I just decided that cinematography was it. I never went off in any other direction. What did you learn in the dark room? Because I loved, I took, you know, I suppose I've been a photographer my whole life, but printing my own photos in college was definitely like, it's the most fun part. You almost don't like, I almost, this is actually partially, maybe it's partially the reason why I became a part-time colorist was because it feels much more like the dark room where

it's like you get to play with the image and it's, and it's a lot less stressful. They're like, I don't like that. You're like, okay, fine, change it up. You know, it's not like, I don't like that shot. And you're like, damn it. Yeah, I find like nowadays when I take any snapshots, you know, that magic of the dark room is, has certainly transformed because there's a lot that you can do with filters and, you know, manipulating the curve and pulling in, you know,

rich blacks and, you know, blossoming highlights as if you're silver printing or anything. like noir, there's certain curves that you can just apply, and so it's so much simpler. I think the dark room really taught me that it is, one, a really unforgiving process because you make a mistake, that's it, and that the printing process of just finding the right exposure so that all the zones really fall into place, you know, takes some time getting used to. And I ultimately didn't have the patience for that nitty gritty fine tuning. I was more of a, let's see what happens if I do this, you know, and I enjoyed that. I mean, I did learn a lot. I did learn that paper is key. I find that, you know, using the right kind of paper is fantastic. And then,

also access. You know, you got to have a dark room to really grow as a photographer if you're doing your own printing. And so once I was in New York, I didn't have this space. I was, you know, sharing with roommates. There was no way that I could create a dark room and renting a dark room or signing in for certain hours was a bit expensive. So it very quickly, my dark room experience ended and so I just had different photo labs print whatever I needed and then I got pretty quickly into printing lights of communicating because I started once I started shooting feature films and you get your dailies and you talk to the timer and you're doing your answer print then you really start understanding the printing process for your answer print and then for your

release print and you know the whatever film stock for the one doesn't necessarily mean it looks great on another once they do the release print so that was a different phase yeah I'm actually fascinated by that because we've had a few DPs come on the show who you know started with film and I'm interested in knowing what your sort of perspective is on, because everyone these days seems to want, you know, the film look. We all want it to look like film, which I personally think has now aged

out. I don't think people want the film look anymore. They just want a nostalgic look. Like when we were shooting on DV or whatever, of course we wanted it to look like film, because nothing was better. But now the digital's perfect, I have kids coming to me and going, how did you get that DV look? I'm like, I shot on an XL2. Like, because

they grew up with it, you know? Yes. But to the initial I know, it's ridiculous. to the initial question, just what processes do you find that you've carried over that have helped you in the digital world, whether it be exposure or workflow or, you know, that knowledge of doing, working with a colorist or anything like that? It has changed so, so much.

You know, these days when I shoot raw or in log and I have a project that, I do the color correction on, depending on how much time I get allotted by the post-supervisor, there's so much you can do. And I think what I carried over from the, just as an understanding of, you know, the colors of how they intertwine and I can easily, and actually, it's funny, to this day, I still say, a pointless magenta. I still go by points I know and my color

the song is like what do you mean it's like well a point you know it's like printing points it's like yeah but anyhow

be that as it may that is really it it's really maybe the understanding of that there is a certain amount of latitude with what you shot on if you shot in 4K

or just straight HD or, you know, what the latitude is of your particular project. And then it is really all about sensor technology. And that is very similar to me in terms of working with a negative. Just understanding how the pixel technology of different cameras kind of translate light. And, you know, where it was a chemical process and now it is an electricity process. of where the photons just kind of ignite the sensor to create a current. And that is your, you know, exposure.

And might that be at the toe of your sensititometry curve or might it be the shoulder? You know, it is where that all comes together. Because obviously, you know, in terms of exposure and latitude, when you're talking about sensitometry, you know that most of your actions, is going to take place in the straight line, which is the straightforward stop-by-stop-reliable exposure. But a lot of the shadow magic and a lot of the highlight roll-off

is really where these days the sensors vary greatly. And I have to say that I have been really astonished by how much the Canon sensor has pushed up into that field of being one of the top sensor technologies because their roll-off is in highlights is now so soft and has so many gradation and also in the toe you know which is first exposure you know the whole magic in in the shadows is just beautiful you know so I end up often under-exposing a little bit because the sensors are so, so great. I actually, so I'm shooting on a C-500, well, shooting webcaming on a C-500,

the most overkill webcam in the history of webcams. Yeah, I'd say. Yeah, do you, do you have any, I mean, I've used, I've been working with this for, I guess since it came out, I think I have serial number eight. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was on it. But do you have any tips? I know, right?

I need to get the engineers to sign the inside of it or something. Do you have any tips on exposing this one? Because I found kind of the same thing where I used to do the film thing of just like put the skin a stop over and then I'll drag it down in post. But more recently, I'm finding I put it all at middle. I put it dead in the center and it works a little bit better for me. But maybe I'm doing it wrong from your experience. No, I agree with you.

I hardly ever overexposed. skin any longer just because it performs the best when you're either right on the money or when you're actually a little bit under and you know it's always such a such a tricky thing when you're talking about the exposure because you know many people who start learning like my students they use zebras and and i'm you know i keep trying to impress on them that skin tone yes but you know with documentaries That's one thing if you have total control of a set and you can use your light meter and your spot meter. But when you are doing cinema verite, it is so much of it is intuitive and you just have to have that basic knowledge

of quickly adjusting your either ISO to compensate or your F-stop to pull it into the right range, right? And very often when you use like these functions of the waveform or you're using the Z. zebras, you know, dialed into whatever percentage because you think that will give you that guarantee. The truth of it is you can have, you know, your zebras dialed into, let's say, 60% if you're not shooting log, you know, 60% or even though you say like 55% or 60%, right. So it's just a little bit under what people usually go for in terms of, you know, Caucasian reflectiveness. And then that person steps into the shadow, right? Or then that person steps into the bright sunlight.

So it is no guarantee. You have to always think of the entire world as an entire gray scale is represented. And you need to understand where, what zone is in order to find your best exposure. or is the person really in the key light that you want to expose it for, then maybe 65% on the zebra will work for you. But beyond that, it just is for me irritating to see all of these, you know, helpers. And so I do use it usually at 100% just as a warning so that when it does pop up, especially in Veritas,

I know with my left eye, I see, oh, this is a window, or this is a white wall with sun hitting it. No wonder it's peaking at 100%. And so then I adjust it so that I don't have the loss of information there. But that's it. And beyond that, I just really, if I do it. Yeah, it's like I eyeball it. But if I use it for interviews or if somebody is a long, longer conversation. I do use sometimes a waveform because I shoot log and then I try to have

the skin tones no higher than 50. It's like 4550. You know, it's like kind of my base. Do you specifically with the C5 on, I don't know that 300 did it, but have you been using the false color? Because I've found that kind of as a replacement of for my spot meter. Right, right. You know, it's interesting. I actually. actually am not a fan of false color. Interesting. Okay. And that has to do with that I live and breathe very much of the way the color works. That gives me sometimes a better clue in, you know, I know you can program it so that it pops in and out.

But it for me, it's color is like a very sensitive thing. and I like really how I can see mixed color work. And so that is for me more of an alarm. And that actually comes from not being able to adjust when I was shooting on negative, the mixed color. That was so detrimental. It was like so important to even out all of your different color temperatures within a set, you know, just jelling the windows or putting it at another. filter and cutting down your exposure possibilities that way. You know, it's like I find these days, I just look, and you were talking about the Canon C-500,

what an amazing LCD they have. It is nice. Oh my God, so in love with that. But I also really enjoy working with their viewfinder, the Canon V70. It's just beautiful. I thought that that is game changer. For me, when I'm inside and I do Verite, I only use the LCD because it is so accurate and sharp.

And, you know, I see my mixed colors right away and see what I can get away with. Yeah, the viewfinder is definitely on my list when I can afford one. I mean, I guess the problem is I have my own package. So it's like, I could rent one, but I just want it. You know, it's so interesting. When I started out, no, okay, I'm obviously a woman, and yes, my pronouns are she and her.

But when I started out in the business, because there were only 10 established female cinematographers in the field, I contacted them all when I started out in the 80s, trying to get a foot in the door by just saying, hey, can I just shadow you on set? I'm happy to work for free if I can just see how you won the set and how it all works. And specifically, Diana Taylor, who was really my hero at that point, she let me visit her on set and then ended up hiring me as well as a camera assistant. And so we, you know, she took me under her wings that way.

What a dream that is. I'm sorry? To look up to someone and then work for him. Yeah, I know. And it was also during that time. I mean, you know, again, there was so few camera women out in the field that everybody said to me, you know what? If you want to get anywhere in this industry, little lady, then you better have your own gear

because that's the only chance you're going to get hired. And I saw my friends invest in, you know, the Aton packages. and whatnot. And the cost that they would get is like, hey, we have this great project. We'll pay you for the camera, but you can't pay you anything. And I thought, look, I'm already having a hard time as a woman starting out in the field. So I wanted to make sure that this whole gender thing was not part of it, that I actually would get hired for my skills as an artist, as a visual artist,

rather than for the gender issue and I didn't want to have the camera be kind of like the go-between. So it excluded from the get-go a lot of opportunities, but the people who did call me hired me for who I was and what I brought to the table.

And that was a great confidence builder. And when you look back at my career, I mean, I did, after I decided on that magical day, in 1982 to become a cinematographer. I mean, I worked my way up the ladder, and I shot for four years at Columbia University thesis films until, you know, these scout agents, which came to the screenings, saw what I did and signed me,

and that was a confident boost, and from that point onward, it was a much easier way to step into the field. Not that it is, it wasn't handed to me in that way. You know, you still, no matter what, it doesn't matter where you're at in your career. You still have to kind of find your own voice. Yeah, it's, you know, the, the gear question is always one that gets repeated, especially for younger filmmakers.

And it's something I even think about all the time. Nowadays, it's so much more affordable. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, goodness. I mean, like there's one thing to own, you know, like a Penelope and then have to still get the film. But now, you know, goodness, a C70. I've been telling people like if you want to, if you can afford it, you know, because obviously there's still some barrier to entry. But like if you can afford a C70, you're done. You're done. You can shoot whatever you want. Exactly. It's a beautiful camera. It has the same, you know, uh, coding. and sensor technology than the C-300 mark-3, yeah, exactly. And that's a $10,000 sensor you have in that camera, you know? That's not, and I think the price of the C-70 is, what is it right now, like around $6,000? Six, yeah. And that's what I bought my C-100 Mark-2 at.

Yeah. And I think that was the C-500 original sensor, at least the C-300 original sensor, which I liked because, you know, shot to SD cards. small and use regular batteries and it was and all that but even so like there were limitations you know 4k which you know it doesn't really matter but these days kind of does yeah i mean especially i mean that's because netflix and so many of the distributors now have their uh you know their resolution you know demands of what you have to shoot on and and even check off what camera you can use Well, and it's so funny because that is something like with the internet being what it is,

everyone always wants to prepare. There's this innate need to be prepared. And so people will be on Reddit or whatever, like, oh, what camera should I get? These ones are Netflix approved. And it's like, oh, which films have you shot? And they're like, I haven't yet. It's like, well, I don't know if you have to worry about what Netflix wants yet. You can do whatever you want right now.

so true so true yeah did uh it's uh kind of a weird um turn but tell me about your time on peewey's playhouse it is so funny people are always asking me about

what do you listen IMDB it's the last one you just go hey there it is it always comes back up yeah I was at that point I was an account camera assistant and it was a multiple camera shoot, very much like a classic, you know, on these rolling pods and able to quickly adjust. It was really fun. I mean, you know, I think the, again, for me, it was very much mirroring what happened to me when I joined this initial magical day on set where there is a It's like not a tipping point.

It's just like this magical line of where, you know, you're with a crew, you're making everything happen, and it's like gritty and sweaty. And then the director calls action, and then there's magic. And you are in make-belief, and it's beautiful, and it looks gorgeous, and the camera moves around. And it was similar at Pee We's Playhouse, where you have the genie, of course was a real man just, you know, with a makeup on the head, but then underneath and shorts and, you know, a t-shirt.

That wasn't that, uh, Morpheus? The guy who played Morpheus. Oh, no, that was Cowboy Curtis was, was, you know, it's like these, these characters that appeared or the chair, the comfy chair, you know, with the arms or the little robot. I mean, there's no people in there, you know, cramped for hours, waiting for the, cue, take after take. But we had so much fun. It was a great camaraderie and partially because

Peewey made it so. He was very much interacting with the crew and very normal, but with a sense of humor, I had the best time, I really have to say. It was kind of a very colorful set and a great crew, especially the puppeteers were amazing. Yeah. What did you learn from

a production side from that experience and what did you learn from like a directing or or uh sort of top upper level side um well keep in mind i was a camera assistant so i just did what i was told sure from observation you know because we would all love to be on any set you know exactly but i think um you know it was the set was run fairly smoothly as i remember um and um and from point of view, there wasn't really any, you know, I've been on sets where the crew did not feel respected or neglected in a sense of where they didn't give a promised breaks, you know, on time or went endlessly into overtime. And, you know, it was a unionized set. And as far as I remember, we are a shop steward, you know, it's like, there was no problem when we would go. over, it was just, you know, 15 minutes into meal break penalty and everybody was asked and it was pretty much above board. But from a directing point of view, I think, I don't really recall the director at all. Sure. I recall Peewee pretty much doing what he wanted to do. And he was

really in charge of when he felt it was good or when he wanted another take and i do remember that the genies sometimes those damn doors would jam you would try to open up and ask the genie for advice and the door wouldn't open up things like that you know that kind of are memorable But it was not a big set. It was pretty small, you know. Yeah, the kind of going back to the camera thing and sort of young filmmakers. One thing about Julia that I noticed was really great food cinematography. And the one thing that YouTube loves is B-roll.

B-roll has become the A-roll for a lot of filmmakers. And I think it's just because no one, it's a lot easier to do B-roll than to write a script, you know. But I was kind of wondering just to kind of kick off the questioning of the films. How did you approach shooting that and like were you, were you bringing any influences in or were you just kind of like, because that's just pure, I mean, literal food porn. You get to do whatever you want, you know, make it look as pretty as you can. So like, what was your approach there? Well, it's really interesting because Betsy and Julie and I, we certainly had some conversations about how we would approach the food. And they were pretty much set on that they wanted to be abstract where you kind of didn't know what it was at first.

And so they were looking for a commercial cinematographer who could provide that. And so they had a friend recommend a Parisian cinematographer who specialized on abstract food shoots. And he was fantastic. It's Nanda, I always say his last name. Nanda Fernandez Brilliard, I think is his last name, pronounced correctly. But forgive me, Nanda, if I pronounced your name. But anyway, I really thought that he was the right fit. He was just excellent at bringing these macro shots into the world because, but it's

kind of like the cherry on top, you know, it's like you have to build up to that moment. And that certainly fell into my lap. And we also knew from the get-go that we had certain recipes where we would be going step by step where we would have Susan, you know, our food specialist and cook, do go and go through these steps. So all of that needed to have a, it was kind of like a transition element of coming from the archival footage of Julia in the kitchen to Susan handling just with her hands and obviously not seeing and revealing her face. In Julia's recreated. kitchen that go between, that then was kind of like with a cherry on top by Nanda, you know,

and so it all kind of intertwined in a beautiful way. And I know you asked me another part of this question was, what were my influences? Yeah, I was assuming that you had shot those sequences, but I suppose with any film, you know, I feel like a lot of people, maybe, you didn't, but pull in sort of visual references or something like that. Like, not necessarily we want it to look like this, but this is kind of the vibe that we're going for. And I was wondering if you had any of those. And we did, I mean, again, Julie, Betsy and I, we did talk about it. And Betsy and Julie were very adamant about that they didn't want to have it look like

the chef's table. Chef's table. They didn't want it to be presented that way. and they wanted to have a different way of getting to the food. And I said to them, like, look, I mean, food is emotional. You know, you eat something, you have an experience, and you want to present it to the audience as such. And so how can we visually capture the aroma?

Because obviously they can't taste it. And how can we, you know, activate their sense of, of yearning to taste it and their sense of that they can nearly smell it, right? How can you make that work? And so there were elements in chef's table. There was a very first episode which really struck me because there's one tiny shot in it where the camera floats. And as it floats, it's verity, and as it floats, I filmed, I film.

as the viewer, as if I could smell it. It was that vapor, you know, it's just translated through a slight camera move. And so I was very much inspired by that. But yet because I didn't want it to look like that, which was really referring to lighting, I knew that I had to work more to anchor Julia's Kitchen in reality, meaning period.

faded colors, more period lighting, which is more source motivated of a door, a window, a slash of light, and using that as consistent motivations to backlight it and give it a certain glow. But then bringing that element of doing handheld work and really trying to capture it as it happens, that was my take on creating that bridge so that the audience feels as if you're with your mom or with your grandma, with, you know, somebody who cooks really well in your family and you are somewhat just watching and salivating and can't wait until it is being presented to you so that you can take a bite. And I thought we were very successful. Yeah, yeah. No, it's all gorgeous.

I think I remember. And you know what, in terms of, I'm sorry to interrupt, in terms of the macro photography of Nanda, there were, he, because he used a different camera than I did in Paris. And you see, it was during COVID. And so nobody could fly over. It was all via telephone communication. And then he would send us the images in log of what he had shot. But he also shot everything against a black background.

And so the contrast level was of a different nature. And when you're doing macro commercial photography, very often it is not, you have, you know, certain ways of substituting certain, you know, more glistening ingredients than actually what is used. Whereas coming from Julia, that was, it was very much everybody can do this. This is how it really looks like. And so in the kitchen, and we shot also plenty of close-ups in that kitchen without hands in there. But, you know, the approach was, again, it was period. So there were no pure blacks. And I felt that that was really important.

you know, to find that transition so that Nanda's footage would really stand out as the ultimate food point. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it was, it might have been Anthony Bourdain who said that it was the explosion of food network was likely due to 9-11 because people wanted to find comfort. Yeah. And I'm noticing kind of the same thing now, where, you know, Great British Bake Off, for instance, is everyone's about it and stuff like that. And I found that the Julia documentary does give you kind of that same joy, joyful feeling. Yes, yes. And learning she was kind of a naughty lady.

Like, that's kind of fun, you know. But look, you know, and if you look at the recent films that I was really engaged and I am. Kind of intense. Yeah, but they're also very often by, you know, about feminist or leading women that established their own path. And in a way, I identify so much with that because I had to do the same thing. I had to establish my own path because there were so few women in the field. And, you know, even today, I still have to. assure that, you know, I can handle all technology that's being thrown at me and any kind of

situation. But that makes you look at other people with much more appreciation. So when I embarked on telling the story visually with, about Julia Child, that was key. I'm really being able to identify with her and seeing a bit of myself in her of, you know, being a bit too tall. Sure. I'm not that I'm that tall. I'm not six foot two, but I am, you know, five, ten. And so when you put some shoes, even sneaker, even flat shoes, then you end up being pretty tall. and you know that that can be you stick out let me just say it you just stick out when you're

tall and so not necessarily you know for me it was also I don't know if I want to really go into that I'm going to sidestep my my inner thoughts on that topic of appearance but you know Julia Child was just not considered abuse beauty. And she didn't fit into what was asked of her, partially because of her height and partially because of her, you know, rebellion and rebellion against her parents of what they asked of her of getting married at that time, period when she was, you know, supposed to get married. And she didn't, you know, she was not interested in that. And she found her own path and I really related to that tremendously.

So I was highly motivated to do her justice. And I think the film really does, you know, because everybody who succeeds in one way or another kind of inspires those who follow suit, right? And her having a career blossom at 50, that is laid in the game. game for, you know, many people. And I think, you know, her nature of things, shit happens and things fall down and, you know, and just pick it back up. This lightheartedness of embracing

one's own mistakes is a key element to success that you can, if you understand that you won't be perfect and that when you make a mistake you own it and you don't own it with with shame i mean i'm talking about mistakes that obviously don't harm other people but mistakes in terms of your own performance but you own it and you have a sense of humor about it you become vulnerable and so much more approachable and if you are approachable people are willing to give you you know the support that you need to succeed So I thought that's a, it's a brilliant message. Yeah, that's genuinely one of the things that I, that was a huge lesson for me that, you know, I hesitate to say, changed my life because that's such like a strong statement.

But being able to not so much admit fault because that was easy for me, it was not carrying that burden of the failure with me and treating it like a lot. lesson. Okay, did I learn the lesson? Yes. Do I know what it is? Cool. I can let go of the failure itself. You don't need to carry, you know, it's like the way I heard it described was, actually, this is the way religion was described to me, but it's the same concept. It's you get across a river with a boat. You don't need to carry the boat with you. Yeah, exactly. That's silly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So well put. Yeah, I feel, and I, and I can echo that. I mean, you know, the strive, maybe, I don't really know how it affects men in our society. I know that there are social norms that everybody wants to live up to and that are, you know,

in our books and our schooling and our, in the behavior, sometimes just so, you know, they're like blind spots. You're just being taught something without really asking if it's valid. but when you understand that you are imperfect and therefore have the power to embrace your imperfection in a society that teaches you ultimately always to be perfect and specifically women to be perfect because there is unfortunately this worth or value system that is placed on women's appearance of you have worth if you are beautiful and sexy and that is your currency that you are trying to negotiate and you know move forward but it doesn't really embrace of how smart you are and very often if you are um

showing that you are really brilliant and smart then is being held against you or if you're really determined and a tough negotiator well then you might end up being called a bitch and if you are you know not standing or if you are even daring on set to speak up and say like nope I disagree with the director and the producer you're making the wrong choice

you better fall in line girl you step just one step too far over the line whereas i see and i have seen through all of my years in the in the business that that's much more forgiven for men that's kind of like you know the the bonding that takes place of the the wrestling of you know i have this opinion you have that opinion but they have that that kind of communication set from the get-go that's part of how they can just be direct but as a woman you're not allowed to be that direct without you know upsetting some some people's toes some sensitive people yeah i i will say for men it's interesting you uh if you are sensitive on the offset i was a pretty sensitive kid growing up and you don't

communicate in that kind of rough housing direct way uh you you're out you don't get invited to the friend groups you don't you get kicked out immediately um in regards to that was very frustrated i had to learn how to be like masculine i suppose in the in the very coarse way you know fit into a certain norm and i also had to adapt um it was very tricky because here you are on the set that is predominantly you know men except for maybe the makeup or the wardrobe department um you know and you you think you think you can step into that masculine behavior but you're not allowed to because as a woman or at least now it's not so much but then when i started out there was very strict behavior that was tolerated and everything else was you know like hmm you know she's right over stretching her welcome here

yeah have you found that it's gotten better over the years because i mean going back to the idea of of the way you look too, like, goodness, it seems like every industry is more looks driven than ever, you know, you look at, you know, in the influencer economy is mostly hot chicks in bikinis. Like, my goodness, yes, that has become the currency. Absolutely. It's the eye candy, you know, and it's because there's an overflow of information. And so obviously, you know, the audience is attracted to something specific, but it only lasts so long. If you don't deliver, no matter how you look, if you don't deliver the goods with some wit and some laughter, people are not going to stay. They're not going to stick around for the blog or whatever you're trying

to communicate, you know. So I think it just lasts maybe for the door to be opened, you know. sure and that is already a great thing but i mean you know it is look our our film industry is a youth oriented industry it has always been and once you get uh to the level of where you're really experienced then um what counts is really your work your body of work and uh and then how you uh adapt to the different challenges And it's just, I find that people, when I started out, they were, at times, there were just so many expectations on either side, producing, directing, crew, that would butt heads, you know, where all of a sudden everybody felt, oh, I'm disrespected, or whatever. But, you know, and I understand that because they had all their expectations. But when you have been in the industry for a while and I have been in the industry for 40 years, nearly 40 years, 38 years to be exact.

I know, it's, yeah, no, it's nearly 40 years. 82, yeah, 22 next year. Crazy. Yeah, a couple of those years disappeared on us. But, you know, you have a different perspective. And I find, and maybe because it's my. extensive training in documentaries because you meet so many different characters and because the diplomacy that is asked of me as a self-directed camera woman when I'm doing cinema

Veritas, just that sensitivity to really understand somebody's emotional pulse, right? That you have so much more empathy and therefore you can quickly decipher why people try to set limits and it doesn't matter if it's a budgetary thing or if it is a scheduled thing or if they want to limit something you have a better understanding and therefore the communication can

be much more focused so that the other entity let's say the producers are like oh we don't have that money for that you know it's like it's not putting heads any longer it's more of a recognition of well this project has this amount of funding

and if this is really necessary, how can we make the other parts work? And so it becomes a much more focused conversation and much more of there's more access to a quicker solution just because the experience that you bring to the table. And that is very different from when you're starting out because you haven't done enough projects to compare them and to really understand how to fine-tune the conversations. Yeah, that's a toughie, especially because, correct me if this isn't the case, but there are certain situations where the answer is not like, you know, like we were talking about, everyone likes to be really prepared. Sometimes the answer is there's no preparation. You just have to do it.

You know, I can tell you at a snowboard, but until you're on the mountain, you're not going to experience what it's like to slide around. You know, I can't tell you what a toe edge feels like. is that kind of the same case like getting on set is there like you know a book someone could read or maybe some therapy someone could do to figure out how to get close before they step on set or is that mostly just like you're going to get punched in the jaw and that's how it's going to go you know i always uh try to relate it to when you are an artist what counts is your body of work Nobody is going to say, like, oh, you have a degree in what, let me see, your art. That's the question, right?

So doing it is really the key to build your experience and to really be able to negotiate your career. There's not, yes, you can have a lot of book knowledge. And certainly these days, there are so many videos available if you want to get familiar with certain cameras or you can, you know, dive definitely into the technology of the, the sensor technology or the optics or you know all of that is available on the internet and it gives you a base but it keeps you very hungry i'd say keeps you hungry in order to really be involved because when you're learning you have your your own timeline you can go and get a snack and then maybe tomorrow you see the other half of that video. But when you're on that, it is rapid fire.

It is, here's the situation, go do it. And I think that is really where everything is tested. And that is where the experience of what to let go off, if you're saying, oh, I have this great idea. I want to do these cool rack focuses. And then you're on set and you're doing your first rapid focus and you don't hit the end mark right or it was too late

and then the person already moved then you have lost that entire moment and so certain conceptual or cinematic approaches just lie right out the window because there's not the time there to do so and you find your way when it is appropriate to play

cinematically and when it is just meat and potatoes because the emotional dynamic is demanding of a different style of cinematography and knowing what to let go of and how to you know forge forward is only possible once you had experience because you understand the timing of things and you once you step on set that emotional dynamic will present itself and you can sense when something drastically happens when you know some sort of major tipping point is happening because the key thing is that you're listening you're not only watching body language which for me as a dancer

is is key you know for me that is up he's about to talk swing the camera over right and having my you know with that's actually fascinating i didn't even think about that but you can watch the subject and know how they're going to move oh that's cool that's really And it is, and, you know, thank goodness, if you look back in time and you have that eyepiece, and even with the canon viewfinder, the V70, you know, it's like how your poor evolution is not there. And you probably are going to squint, too, in order to, you know, just focus on what you're focusing. But with the LCD of the new Canon C-500, that is amazing because it frees you up, all your periphery is ready.

I can see somebody reacting right over here or making a move, which then motivates me. I know, oh, three, two, one, he's entering. I can start and hide my camera motion on my stepping with that person who's entering. and that person will lead me down and I can then let them go and end up in a close-up on another subject, right? So all of that, using your periphery that way and when I am in a dialogue-driven scene,

it is so important to not chase the conversation, but to have the timing that you can listen and know what's happening before the other person. If they're only interjecting, you let that go, but if they really starting to ramp up for an oppositional statement, then you can make your move of rotating around, going over the shoulder, passing past the shoulder. I mean, it's so delicious.

I am really a big fan of there a day. Yeah, well, and it's the fun part. I was going to say the being able to see everywhere is the reason why I like shooting my viewfinder stills camera because you get that big area around it and really helps with composition. But it is that weird thing of trying to make verity cinematic, right? Because in a scripted sense, you know that person's going to enter the door.

So you can set that up. But being able to anticipate it in the moment is absolutely a learned skill, but also just one that is, I think, valuable to anyone, even if you're just trying to get into, correct me if I'm wrong. But I would argue that shooting a lot of Verite would absolutely make you a better scripted cinematographer. Interesting. You know, so because I would have to think about that.

Since I started out in doing 10 years feature films and being trained to really conceptualize, you know, the Dolly, the move in and around, the coverage and the line, the 180 rule line in terms of not crossing the line or when you do a transition shot and so on and so forth. That for me was key to do good coverage when you do Veritas. I'm going to revise my statement. Having that base, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted you. But now I'm going to be. I'm coming from the perspective of I went to film school And I won't say I have the same base knowledge you do, but the cinematic language was beat into me before I did. I wouldn't say documentary, but just doing anything where it's kind of like run and gun kind of, hey, we're going to shoot this commercial for, I don't know, an apartment, you know, and you just kind of have to, ah, okay, but you know, and you're always handheld and stuff is more what I was talking about, not starting as a documentary.

But I'm sorry, I should not have interrupted you. That was my bad time. No, it's all okay. I like the spontaneous conversation because they're very lively that way. I don't mind it, in other words. You can interject any time. Thank you.

So, yeah, so for me, that knowledge that I gained through the feature of films was all about coverage, all about the line, and be very shot of when, you know, you're crossing the line, and why you're crossing the line, is there a real shift in the scene where you can make that work?

And traditionally, people don't cross the line in feature films. In dramatic work, that's a no-no. Unless you can give the audience an orientation where it becomes part of the style of where they can accept from the get-go. Oh, I know the layout of this particular scene of where the windows are,

where the doors are so that if you move back and forth across the line, then it becomes a style and the audience doesn't lose their perspective. That's key. But I learned that when I was shooting feature films. And in terms, therefore, it helped me tremendously to be spontaneous. Because in the back of my mind, I was saying, like, okay, I'm on the line, but I'm not across the line. I can go there because he just crossed the line. So that's the natural transition. All of that really helped me to be spontaneous. And also with lighting, I mean, the amount of lighting that you do in a controlled set, you learn very quickly that, hey, I can't put my camera angle here.

That means I have to do a whole re-light. You know, I can't just, the director says, well, you know, I want to shoot in sequence. And you go like, oh, my gosh, sequence. Are you out of your mind? You know how many lead? you don't have the hours in the day to do that right so you learn very quickly of how to truncate and jump in in uh the you know the timeline in order to not have these relights and that informed me again when i'm on set and i'm shooting something i always think of the

real light but there are no lights you know what i mean it's like that's the that's the amazing thing there are no lights it's all natural lighting But I was thinking of the re-light because I'm thinking, oh, the sun is going to be moving. And if I put myself over to the left and shoot the mask are from there, then my coverage is blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm not going to shoot into the windows. Right. Because the sun is going to be setting and, you know, or it'll be complete silhouette. I can't have that intercut in a regular lit dialogue, you know.

So it informs me of how I go about my verity. Yeah, with something like Julia or even, I think, R.BG to a degree, a lot of archival footage. Yeah. But Fauci, not so much. Oh, also, yeah. Was that actually a consideration? Was you like, you just have to chuck a bunch in there? Oh, my God, of course.

You know, I started Julia, my name is Pauli Mary, and what was another doc? Oh, yeah, it was the code, not the code breaker. Oh, the ballerina boys, which was a one-hour, you know, documentary on the Trocaderos de Monte Carlo. It's a ballerina troop, a male ballerina troop. And so when you start before COVID, then you have to adjust during COVID. And all of a sudden it was all shrunk down to what is possible. And shooting Julia was there for, you know, the verite in terms of being with cooks in the kitchen. There was like this whole talk about of me shooting people in the kitchen preparing different recipes.

That did not happen. You know, we tried it, and then it became just way too risky of, you know, in close contact and, you know, six feet away on a long lens with your heartbeat. Everything's at 150. But I have to say, you know, using the C-500, I was just shooting a project, and I did so much handheld work on the 135 at T2, 2.2. wide as opening. And how it was beautiful. We're using the stable as it? No, okay.

Not even the electronic one. Nothing. I used nothing. And it was, it turned out beautiful. There was, it was a problem because, you know,

with the cinema primes, you can't have stabilization. It doesn't really work when you have not a lens that communicates with the body. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that doesn't, you know, with a cinema prime. I was able to use I was able to use my Nikor primes, the old AIS ones with stabilization, but I had to key in, I had to tell the camera what

lens it was. I was like, oh, this is a 50, and then it goes, all right, but I'm wondering, I'd have to look back and see if and see if that footage looks weird at all. Because I don't have any stabilized lenses. Yeah, I mean, I don't either because I

shoot on primes predominantly. I mean, I I'm deeply infatuated with the canon cinema primes. They, for Julia, I use the predominantly the 50 cinema prime because, you know, it gives me close focus to the center at 18 inches. So you're like about eight inches away from the food. I mean, that's like smelling distance, you know? Was Julia on the 300 or the 500? No, we shot that on the 300 mark two because we started out and so I had to stay true to that sensor. I didn't want to mix it up.

But yeah, you know, at smelling distance, eight inches away from the front element of the prime. And boy, that was so much fun because of course your focus is very shallow at that point. and you want it to be shallow so that just the same way as your eyes would focus on something that close, you go to the most attracted part, which is, of course, the colors and the juice and that asparagus with the hot salameless on that, you know? Walk me through kind of how you go about lighting just a sort of a traditional interview. Like, you know, you sit down with Anthony Fauci or whoever. That was so much fun with Fauci. I mean, you know, it's interesting.

My lighting has really changed. When I started out, it was all drama because I came from black and white photography. I loved drama. And. Four stop ratios. Exactly, exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Minimum fill light. But then as I grew older, as I discovered that, you know, it is most important to show whoever you're interviewing that they're human, they're vulnerable. There's something in the skin tones that is fragile, right, even though that we all feel so invincible. And so my lighting became much more Vermeer motivated than Jan Vermeer. That, like, my biggest influence on life, I have to say and admit, I think, you know, because I studied paintings, so the traditional Rambrandt lighting and Vermeer lighting, but the whole Dutch education that I had with Jan de Hoche and Franzhals and, you know,

all of these certainly influenced my composition. but Vermeer definitely definitely influenced my lighting and so soft single-source lighting with very little backlight is what you will see in most of my interviews these days and I think that my approach I hated flat lighting really don't like flat lighting but nowadays I shoot usually with three cameras it's a multi-camera shoot for interviews And so if you have women and you do a fashion light approach, you know, I love the Hudson Spider Lights.

I really love the Sky 60 going through an octa. You know, and that just with a little bit of a, you know, a bounce card, like be bored underneath to fill in, you know, that area. right here makes, and then of course the right optics and the right filtration makes their skins glow. And I think partly that is due because the cinema primes have a wonderful way of how they refract. And so there's this glow that happens through the optics. And each lens has a different quality, but that's what I really love and the coloration of it. And so front lighting with multiple cameras, then for different angles, becomes, you know, looks like a side light. But it's just beautiful because then it falls off.

I use a lot of negative fill so that I can milk that. And yeah, in that case, when I do front lighting, then I do some, you know, multi-source back lighting. Have you seen a quick little detour? Have you seen Penn Gillette's documentary Tim's Vermeer? Oh, yes. Oh, fabulous, isn't this? I love that documentary. So, well, I'm a giant Penn and Teller fan, but I grew up as a guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a magician before I was filming. I think I saw that a while back. Didn't that come out like 10 years ago or something or even further back? But yes, fabulous, fabulous. What's your take on the thesis there? Remind me of the thesis because I remember that they were talking about it, but quite honestly, I can't recall. Camera Obscuro.

Basically, his idea was, yeah, he built a camera into a room. Or actually, no, it wasn't even that. His initial thesis was Vermeer built a camera and painted in a dark room, but then found out he could just use a mirror and kind of shift his head a little bit and could just paint the reflected. item perfectly. Exactly, exactly. And it's really interesting because a couple of my friends who love painting as a hobby, they have told me numerous times of that some of the images, you know, as a friend of mine who just loves famous paintings, you know, that are unaffordable, whatever it is.

And she just paints them herself. And so she takes it and projects it and traces it that way on a big canvas. she does her own interpretation and alters the colors and you know it has a blast doing that but it's very similar to rimea's approach ultimately because you're you're getting the proportions uh more accurate you know do you think with a slight distortion of course yeah yeah yeah do you think uh now this is now i'm interested uh do you think it matters if he uh did it by hand so to speak or if he i guess traced is the wrong word but hello That's Vermeer's lawyer.

Sorry, I just need to switch this off. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to me at all. I mean, you know, I think we all use some sort of tools in order to express ourselves. And, you know, I don't paint anymore. I mean, I do some watercolors, but I don't paint the way I used to paint. I use the camera and isn't there the camera a tool that every, uses and does it therefore nullify my artistry I don't think so I think you know it's like

just because I use a camera doesn't mean that my lighting is the same other way that my the art of exposure doesn't doesn't apply any longer you know so it doesn't matter to me and I think that windows or sourced motivation like window light motivation is is always giving the audience or I should say not only window light but any kind of motivated source for lighting will tie in your environment and your subject in such a beautiful way that the audience will feel as if the window to that world is real and authentic and so when I set up at location my lighting I usually go with what I see in the background, and then the foreground of how I do my foreground lighting

mimics somewhat what I see and set out in the background. So there might not be any windows around me, but I will create that window to echo what I see in the background in my framing. Because that is important to me. I want a sense that how we live and how we present a topic or a person, an expert, or a impacted person who's sharing their heartfelt story, that atmosphere, that mood is essential for fine-tuning the audience's receptors of how to soak up, you know, the information and ultimately have, identify and have

sympathy, empathy. Yeah. How do you, do you have any sort of like compositional? inspiration or how did how did you find i mean you you said earlier you basically you were born with it but how did you find that i you know what what what interests you because it's it's something that i'm i won't see i'm struggling with right now but i'm wondering if if there's something left on the table that i'm not finding with my with my compositions see i am how did you train it you know yeah it is it's so interesting i think for me

I think the most important thing for documentary, especially Cinema Verite, is to train your curiosity rather than being concerned with my composition. Yes, it is important how you choreograph your shot or how you, you know, kind of use the form. I think for me it's just because I had years of training and I grew up in a very, artsy household, that that was just part of the nature of things. But I find when I'm teaching to my students, the one thing that is incredibly difficult to sync up with them is how do you access your curiosity? Because if you are with friends, right, let's just say, here's a perfect example. You're playing a game. It's game night at your friend's house. You're coming over. It's an interesting game that's fast, full of laughter, where does your eye go to experience what's

going on? Because you don't want to miss a beat because you're in competition. So your heightened awareness will make you feel very focused. So that is the type of curiosity you want to train as a cinema verite shooter and also as a cinematographer in general because I think when you're curious you find it you know it is when you know it's so often it is you got to get into the flow you have to feel pretty organic with whatever you're in whatever you're seen is that you're trying to capture if you personally and emotionally don't connect, then your curiosity is not activated.

And so I think that that for me is the key. You know, you've got to find a way in by being motivated and curious about what's happening. And if that is there, then it will fall into place because you just want to get close or you just want to step back or, you know. And that informs Lens choice as well, right, if you want to get closer, if you want to want to get a wide. Yeah, so interesting, because, you know, these days I shoot so much of the verite on primes, which has, which is great, but it also has this pitfalls because you have to switch

lenses, you know, at an opportune time. Or if, you know, on the, interesting, I go back to my favorite lens now, which is a 50 millimeter cinema prime by Canon. I end up using that as my Verite lens for full frame. Full frame, it's just you know, the playground.

My canvas is just so big that if 50 feels like a 35 and then it becomes easier to just step closer. But when you're shooting on just the Super 35 sensor rather than on full frame, I would go to the 35.

But it also means that when you're stepping close, your subject will know that you're close. Yes. And that has a psychological power. And they have to accept you. But then you're also giving them notice, hey, I'm coming close. You know, I want to be close.

And there's a psychological play there where silently, you can demand a response. I can walk up to somebody who is in dialogue who hasn't said anything or just listened. But the minute I walk up, I'm demanding a response and they will feel it

and then they want to say something. Or they'll walk away. Either way, you know, there is a certain amount of as if you are in the conversation, but silently with a prime lens. Whereas when I switch over to my, other favorite Canon lens, which is the 17 to 120, which I shoot on the Super 35 sensor with

in Verite. And that will, you know, goes to a 120. I mean, I can be at a distance and still got a close up. And nobody knows. And so it's more observational rather than being in the action and letting your subjects know. So it's like it, sometimes, you know, there's pros and cons. But the prime lens also, and this is the last thing I'll say to that, is you have to have the space. You know, it's like if you're in a small space, prime lens, I find the, you have to accept the fact that when you're using prime lenders, you've got to move.

You have to be able to move and dance with everybody in the room, you know, in terms of, of going over the shoulder you've got to come up close when you're on the 35 or the 50 right and if you're switching over to the 135 you know you got to make sure that you have that that playfulness that tilts up and down to whatever activity it is or like I had the scene where everybody was sharing with six wonderful women who were sharing and reminiscing about photos and they were sharing it and I was on the 135 and I was super tight and I was just able to float perfectly to these little, you know, tiny photos, but you could still see them and even though it was a shallow depth of field, but you could really carve out where the focus was and then going back up to their beautiful expressions and their little stories. But then it becomes a smaller playing ground in which you operate. I also like to think of shooting Verite as if you're writing.

It's like shooting in sentences. I don't go in and just like, oh my God, it's, you know, run and gun, just point the camera and shoot. That's kind of like as if I say, in a sentence, house or tree. And it's just fragmented, right? but if you think of it as once upon a time there was a house in the woods right you already know that there's a surrounding a location where you're singling out something and my next sentence is and i was ringing the bell but there was no bell to be found right so then you already have that interaction so if you in your mind write the sentence and then translate it into a visual sentence then you have like

mini masters and these mini sentences of panning from one element to the other then become very much, you know, a sentence, a paragraph, a story. Yeah. No, that's fantastic advice. And also like a lot of the documentarians I've spoken to have all spoken about that interaction with the... I think I'm... Am I vanishing in terms of lighting? Let's see. Oh, it's a little dark. Yeah. I don't know if you can see me still. Well, we're actually coming up on time. I was going to, unfortunately. Wait, wait, wait.

Just, yeah, move it, move it over. See, like this. There you go. Well, I'll let you go on a second. I actually did have a quick question about filtration and full frame. I have found that shooting on the C-500, I don't really use diffusion anymore. I found that having all the pixels has made it so that everything kind of is naturally smooth and putting filtration on just makes things fuzzy.

Have you kind of seen that? You know, it's interesting. I haven't paid that much attention to it, but it probably is why the, I use the Hollywood magic filtration for the Julia studio kitchen shoots. And maybe that's why it worked so darn well. You know, I have to really do a comparison, which I haven't done,

because I find that the lensing is so super sharp and the filtration that I use is I used a quarter yeah that's that's the fusion but beyond that I usually shoot without yeah it's really more for I use I don't use promis anymore I did a documentary

called the bit player where I had four different periods that I had to portray. One was the 1920s, one was 1948, one was in the 80s, and then the present time. And during that time, just playing with heavy filtration, especially for creating like a silver printing look, and obviously for the noir look,

I used these wonderful, you know, soft FX filters, like one half and one, you know, because it was shot at night. And it worked beautifully. I mean, it was fascinating to me. I would have never dared from my previous experiences to push the envelope with heavy filtrations. But it just called for it and it worked really well. But again, there's so much you can do in post these days. I mean, if I do my color correction in post, sometimes I lay over, you know, a grainy look just because it needs to look more filmic or, you know, more like 16 millimeter. Sometimes I just literally create shafts of light.

Yep. You know, it's like, okay, you know, you got to just give me a form right over. over here with a couple of shafts of light. I didn't do that in Fauci though. Fauci was all real shafts of light. Yeah, no, that's something, I agree. Like nowadays I'm kind of getting the cleanest image I can or and that both exposure wise, you know,

you're collecting data with these sensors now. You're not really creating the image until it hits Resolve or baselight or whatever. And then from there you can just massage and do whatever want. Like I said, we are coming up on time, which is unfortunate. So I'll, I'd like to wrap it up with the same questions. And since you're a documentarian, there's actually a third question. So the first one is, can you recall, it doesn't have to be the piece of advice, but can you recall a piece of advice that really stuck with you that helped you along in your

career? Or maybe life, but probably career. Well, you know, the, and Tom's of my career. I think to get into the business when you're coming out of film school I advise that you set your expectations to devoting

two years to just get into the business and that perseverance is everything in the, it's 80% of being successful in our business. That's the one thing. The second thing is

When you're a shooter, what happens if the scene is really exciting to you, then time warps. Yeah. Where you go and you hold on an amazing emotional reaction. And then you're like, oh my God, that was so amazing. Okay, now I get the other one. And you rush because your adrenaline is so ignited that you are cutting it to. short so don't be fools by your own adrenaline when you are in a highly emotional cinema veritas scene or in an action-packed scene count to 10 that's my advice hold your horses before you

move the camera obviously if it's an action then you just follow organically but um hold your horses count to 10 it's a simple thing but it uh in the edit room you'll be happy to have done that. Yeah, I'm nodding and smiling because for the longest time, so I shot, used to shoot concerts, right? And that was a lot of fun. And when something cool would happen, I had this instinct to stop rolling.

I would get really excited and then I'd hit the button and try to get another shot. And it was just like, I'd get in the edit and I'm like, what am I doing? And for the longest time, I would just shoot at, 60 so I can slow it down and give myself a tail. That is it. That's interesting. Very lazy. But yeah, even now, I have to like roll my finger off the trigger and just like.

Don't touch it. Don't touch it. I know. The trigger can be tricky. There was a time period when I would be shooting on the C-300, first model. And when you would record, you all you say, you have a display. but I don't like the display because it compromises my sense of composition. And I have to have a clean, you know, image in front of me and not cluttered with details.

Nowadays, you can do so that it's just on the border one. But if you would click display off, it would also remove your record display. Right. Yeah. Right? And so I have been, unfortunately, in the situation where I was sure I was recording. And I was like, wow, this is the coolest thing. And then, yeah, okay, cut.

And I clicked it. And then it started recording. It's like, oh, my God. What did I do? And that is, you know, the hardest part because that's when you have to own your mistake. And I think it is important that you don't fear that, that you can go up to the director-producer and say, like, I am so sorry, but I had technical difficulties. It just turns out that this last scene I didn't capture. I got all the conversations in between.

Yeah. You know, I'm sorry, we will just have to find another way to bring that to that. topic back up for them to discuss you know do it while you're there don't do it don't don't you have to it's like the responsibility it's a right thing to do to be truthful you know well and something i learned working for i used to work for red bull and i made a mistake that stuck with me forever but uh just for anyone listening pull someone aside and tell them that don't run up to the director and shout the mistake you have made pull them aside quietly whoever it is or if you have to reprimand someone even worse but like

yeah don't don't do it in front of everyone do it softly to the side yeah yeah that's set etiquette very very important yeah uh second question a little easier um a movie that you think people should see any movie okay for uh for documentaries my all-time favorite movie Right now, it's still Honeyland. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Honeyland is a movie that completely embraces, you know, beautiful lighting, great composition, great verite. Images really stand by themselves and tell story. It's just amazingly beautifully photographed.

Of course, they had three years to do so, you know. and complete access. And sometimes that is key in order to be playful. But there are just moments in there where you go like, oh, my goodness, how did they capture that? You know, when the little girl nearly drowns, they were right there and photographed it. And my heart was racing.

Just did they not have that responsibility to yell out? Because you don't see the cameraman shifting, you know, away from it. he just holds the camera, a cameraman, I, it was a cameraman, actually. But holding on the water where the kids are playing, right? Hopefully, you know, the director was actually alerting the parents because then she was rescued right away. But, you know, those moments are the moments when the little baby, the toddler is being stung by the bees, you know, and you keep thinking, as a filmmaker,

and as a camera person, don't you have the responsibility to stop everything and rescue the kid? But again, we don't know if not somebody else is being... You can cut that audio out. Yeah, exactly.

You can cut that audio out, right? Right, right? Or you can be filming and go, help? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, anyway, that is one of my favorites. But there are so many, I mean, I, gosh, right now, I love the film, The Rescue, or not the rescue, yeah, not the rescue. I love that film too, but I really thought that the first wave shot by a dear friend of mine

and some other DPs as well, but he did the most. You talk about Thor? Thor, yes, exactly. I interviewed him about Boy State. Oh, fantastic. Yeah, we worked on Boy State together. I did see that. camera collective there's six of us and we jump into each other's shoes quite frequently because

you know documentary schedules can overlap and sometimes you're not available but you have started that project and so we wanted to create a group that can really support each other where we all can easily adapt to somebody's style and have the experience to be just you know a good fit and also put the directors and producers at ease. And so we have this camera collective and the Thor had, you know, said, look, I'm doing this film on Boy State. There are 1,700 campers. I cannot photograph them by myself.

I want our own, my, our team to go and we work as self-directed DPs. Each person will get a character. And that's how we're going to make it happen. And we did. It was great. Yeah, Thor's awesome. I love that conversation. Yeah, he was fantastic.

Yeah. And so he shot the first wave, which is a beautiful film. And I would not be surprised if it isn't nominated. Matter of fact, aren't the shortlist supposed to come out today? That's a good question. Yes, they actually just came out. Claudia, Julia is actually on the short list for documentary feature. Hey!

that's nice that's sweet that's so cool and um the first wave i believe is also on there for documentary fantastic so so well deserved i i would not be surprised if the first wave is uh going to be uh landing a nomination yeah you guys are going to have to fight about it um we don't fight we just are very supportive of each other just steal each other's like trophies just like oh where to go I don't know, but I have one in my house. The third question, before you fall completely into darkness. Oh, my goodness. Hang on.

I wonder what I can do. Oh, no, it's fine. I'll brighten it up and post. It's fine. Okay. That's why you put on the 500. Yeah. Well, I've got lights.

It is also 2 o'clock. Here. Hang on. Hit us with the cell phone. Yeah. Well, if it would be working. Oh, goodness. Hey, that kind of works.

But pretty dramatic. The third question, the documentarian question, recommended footwear. Recommended footwear. So when I am in the mountains of Mexico or Peru or Nigeria, then I wear hiking boots. Gosh, what is the brand? Hang on. Okay, yeah. Here for it.

So, these are my hiking boots. Okay, yeah. This look kind of stylish, too. Yeah. Where's my, I'm just going to, because I've had them for eons, you know, I don't even know what brand. The label's been burnt off, yeah. There are, D-R-Y, dry. It just says dry, but this is not it.

Nope, sorry. It is Zopa? Well, someone's going to have to go on the YouTube and just look at them and be like, those ones. Anyhow, there are my favorite hiking boots. They have a really good fit for the heel. They have a good traction. And so I find incredibly supported through these shoes. And that's, you know, what you want.

You really want a shoe that doesn't slip and really kind of cost. your heel, important to me. Or I need high arch support, so I wear a Nike's. Well, yeah. There you go. Works for me. I never used to ask that. And then after like the fifth documentarian brought up footwear, I was like, I should just

start asking all the documentary because everyone's got a different, everyone has a different answer. And it's kind of funny. And I've got them all in an Amazon list. Oh, really? Yeah. Just like a wish. list or it's not like my wish list but it's just a list of every shoe that any

documentarian has ever said yeah yeah make a book about it or something but uh anyway thank you so so much um for spending the time with me that was a fantastic conversation i'd love to have you i enjoyed it so much thank you for inviting me kenny i loved it um and you now have the challenge of you know what often in in true documentary style happens when you uh conduct an individual of you or a scene when the light goes down, right? Yeah. There's going to be a lot of resolve work done in the last 20 minutes of this. But anyway, I enjoyed it tremendously.

So thank you so much. I'm very glad to hear that. We'll have you back when your next project is wrapped and ready to go. Fantastic. I would be delighted. Okay. Well, thanks again and take care. Okay.

Bye-bye. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax, of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidio Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.