Frame & Reference Podcast - 39: Tommy Jackson, Creator of "Last of Us: Ellie's Revenge"

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of the Frame & Reference podcast! Today, Kenny is talking to Tommy Jackson, the creator of "Last of Us: Ellie's Revenge." Adapted from the extremely popular "Last of Us" video game franchise, "Last of Us: Ellie's Revenge" has racked up more than a million views on YouTube. In this episode, Kenny and Tommy talk about the process of creating a fan short, the struggles of creating in the traditional Hollywood system and about the gear they use to create. Enjoy the episode! Check out "Last of Us: Ellie's Revenge" here. Follow Tommy on Youtube  Follow Kenny on twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Tommy Jackson, the creator, director, and DP of the Last of Us fan film Ellie's Revenge, which currently has over a million views on the old youtube's he's also created a follow-up film um they will come another last of us fan film he also has a bunch of other shorts uh on his youtube channel in this episode tommy and i talk about you know how one goes about adapting a uh video game into a film even a short you know we definitely talk about the uh various failures that have happened on in the hollywood system uh you know we talk about uh mental struggles not like mental necessarily, but you know, like the sort of personal hurls that one has to become,

one has to overcome to become a filmmaker or any creative for that matter. You know, we talk about gear, certainly. It's a lot of fun. So, you know, especially if you're a black magic guy, Tommy's a big black magic guy. He named his sort of YouTube channel Hollywood or indie black magic. So, you know, pun there. But yeah, this is a real fun one. And especially if you're a gamer, like I am, I think you'll enjoy the intersection of video game storytelling and filmmaking that we talk about.

So yeah, without further, without any addues to be furthered, here is my conversation with Tommy Jackson. what got you into cinematography were you specifically trying to get into cinematography or were you kind of just overall filmmaking did you go to film school yeah i went to film school i actually um was and still in pursuing a directing so when i was in high school i took a creative film class that's what really got me into filmmaking and pretty much the assignment was they gave us a camera little camera quarter back in 2010 and And they were like, okay, we want you to go out, make a music video, just, you know, on your own, get some friends together and make something. So that's kind of like where I first was a director. And as a director, I also shot it. I produced it. I edited it. And kind of through that process, I just fell in love with every aspect of it.

And kind of from that point on, whenever I was a director, I correlated that with being a cinematographer as well. So I would shoot the stuff I did, also edit it, and it just went on and on. And then finally, I got into film school. Sorry, I went to UNCSA in North Carolina, and I wanted to pursue directing as my major. You know, they had cinematography and editing and all that, but I felt that directing was kind of my main pursuit. And like I said, I always felt that even if I was to be a director, I would always want to be hands on no matter what. So I was like, I'm going to just go for directing. I was able to get into the program.

So the way the school works is after your second year, you kind of like audition and they choose out of the maybe 90 students. They kind of choose and disperse them into their major. And I got into directing. And I was pleased because the directing classes was the same type of thing. It's like go out, shoot something, edit it, direct it, you know, something that's along some sort of story. they would give us prompts. And, you know, I would go back to Chicago during breaks, and I would make my own independent films.

Actually, going into college, one of the things I sent on my portfolio was a Last of Us fan film I made in high school. And that was probably my biggest project I'd ever done. And that's what really kind of, I mean, The Last of Us was always an amazing story and video game that I was obsessed with. And, you know, making that really kind of spurred,

just my like need and want to keep creating those type of films but you know through college i focused on other things and it wasn't really until you know this past year it's past a year a year and a half that i really was like you know what it's been a long time i have a lot of equipment i have a lot of skills you know i know people i i think that tackling this again would be really really fun and it would be really rewarding so yeah when you were uh come up were there any sort of uh you know filmmakers that inspired you or people there are uh films even um specifically that kind of made you want to become a filmmaker because i know for a lot of people you know this seems to be kind of two schools and thought there's like yeah you know i was

into ingmar bergman when i was 12 and then other people who were like i saw jackass 3d and i thought that was fun yeah i mean i i i kind of went through phases and this was mainly growing up like you know through high school when I was able to see all types of movies, you know, because I was getting to that age that I could see R movies and all that stuff, and my parents wouldn't have to go didn't give a shit. But I was really into Quinn Tarantino growing up, as most pretty much every high school guy is. I always grew up loving Steven Spielberg. I was a huge saving private Ryan fan. Just pretty much like, I kind of like check the list of all the kind of stereotypical big directors. But this is why I say like when I played The Last of Us, the first game that came

out, for me, that was a bigger inspiration for me as a filmmaker, director, and storyteller than any movie I'd ever seen. Like the way that that project was directed, the way everything was lit, shot, and acting, that was more inspiring to me than any film I had seen. Now, I mean, I love movies. I watch them all the time still, but back then, that was kind of where everything clicked for me and I felt like this is the type of style this is the type of just um energy of a film essence of a film that I want to create um and because all these other films I loved but I didn't necessarily want to try to be like them they didn't necessarily inspire me and I felt that because they were so good at what they already did I just kind of wanted to step

away and everyone already talked about them but for me the last of us so I guess Neil Druckman Druckman, he was the director of that. That was just, for me, the biggest impact on my cinematic career. And through college, actually, the first year, we did a bunch of little, basically the projects we would do in, we would do it on sound stages and you'd have to write a little script and get a couple kids in the class and they'd like rotate who was directing and whatnot. And I would always write a scene from the game and then do that for the projects, because I always felt that was more powerful. And my directing teachers would always be like, what movie are you going to use? And I'm like, I'm not using a movie. I'm using a game. And they're like, what?

So that was just kind of honestly, most of my, I think that was the biggest impact I've had as a filmmaker storyteller. So, you know, it's two things. First one is I actually did the same thing. I stole a scene from one of the Metal Gear Solid movies, or games rather. See, so I went, I graduated college in 2012. So at that point, there weren't too, too many, um, like cinematic video games. There was plenty of like really good storytelling in video games, but like uncharted had just come out around that time. And everyone was like, holy shit. It's like watching a real. But, um, the other thing that I thought was funny was in our second episode, um, I interviewed, uh, Josh Richards. He shot Nomadland. I don't know if you know of. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, for Chloe Zow got the Oscar for it. And he was saying that, like, we were talking about inspirations and stuff. And he was saying that video games to him are like where storytelling is kind of really going to explode and kind of like, that's the vanguard now, he said, for storytelling. Because you can spend it, I'm putting words in his mouth now, but like my impression was like, you can spend so much more time with the characters. you could you know it's more like a book yeah or a plan you can spend a lot more time with them it's it's crazy it's like that's why it's so funny is for me video games have been my biggest inspiration for storytelling and as an artist but i don't want to make video games i want to make films so that's why it's so funny it's like a weird little circle um because i you know i still to

this day like games that come out obviously the last of us part two like all these games that come out, Ghost of Tushima, like there's so many incredibly, you know, just at this point, it's so realistic, it's so vivid, like everything they make just, it feels almost more genuine than a film does to me. And I just love the stories that are told. And there's something about, like, how they can just literally explore anything, sort of basically like animation, because it's not actually physically real. They can create anything that just like, it goes. It's just like, it goes to every facet of my creative mind, you know, it's, it's, I love it. So do you, I mean, obviously there's been a lot of bad video game film adaptations. When I was a younger,

Max Payne was like the first one that I remember coming out. We were like, wow, that was dog shit. Yeah. What do you think are kind of some of the problems or maybe some of the things you ran into when trying to adapt a video game story or structure or whatever to, which is inherently an interactive medium to, um, you know, film, which is a passive medium, you know, like Middle Gear Solid 4, I think, I remember when they advertised that game, they were like, there's an hour of cutscenes and we were like, wow, holy shit, that's a lot of cutscenes, but come to find out they meant there's one, one hour cutscene amongst all the other cut scenes and if you watch all of them in a row it still doesn't feel like a film because you're

missing all the parts that like you are partaking in you know yeah um for me so for me the main thing which is I was like this is either going to make or break the film and actually this this kind of goes back to the first film I made which was Ellie's revenge so I made that one um we released that five months ago right before they will come um and starting out with doing this fandom filmmaking. The first biggest thing is I was like, we need to have actors that look like the characters. We need to have actors that are able to at least like be comparable in performance, like at least honor what they're doing and not be like so cringy that it's like too goofy. I feel that a lot of recreations of video games and in professional film in

Hollywood. I mean, every time they've dropped the ball because I feel the casting sucks. The performances, don't match at all what the game was and it kind of like you kind of have to find this weird gray line of like matching performances without wanting to copy it's like you know because you want to honor it's creating a live action video game you're it's a very nostalgic and like euphoric experience for gamers and people who want to watch that and it almost kind of gives it a pass Like, they want to see the perfect, you know, replication, recreation, recreation of those characters. And that was the thing that was probably the hardest at the beginning.

But for Ellie's revenge, you know, I was lucky enough that a lot of people were sending me headshots of actors who looked like the characters. You know, we got a bunch of auditions and they were incredible. Rebecca Hodd, she played Ellie and they will come. You know, she continued with us. She was one of the auditions for Ellie and I thought she was amazing. And it was kind of that confidence I got in the cast that once I had that, I was like, okay, I think we're good. And then it came to locations.

So the other big, the hardest thing is matching the locations. A lot of video game movies, what they'll do, whether it's a budget concern, whether it's laziness, whether it's just not caring about the source material. They'll just like change the location. They just like don't care, you know. And I feel that for the original Ellie's Revenge once again, that was. set in Seattle, right? So I wanted to make sure it matched the environment. So we shot in Oregon, which had the same forest. And for they will come, you know, there's so many scenes in the games where they're in these, you know, spore infested houses with fungus on the walls

and everything. So I was like, okay, you know, I could find an abandoned house and film in it and then like, you know, just try to maybe add some little CGI scores or just forget about the scores. But I was like, you know what? I feel that that's too easy. I feel like that's the easy way out. So I literally, in my garage, built an entire set that was supposed to be like a bedroom with a bathroom. And, you know, I put spores all over the walls. I made it try to feel as much like the game as I could.

And I felt that that is, you know, part of what makes it genuine, you know. So it's like the locations, it's the cast. Then you have to go into the performances, make sure that the actors know the characters. They understand the characters. They understand the energy, you know, the darkness, everything like. that and I think also it's biggest thing honestly with video game movies is they'll find like a really like action-packed violent one and then they'll make it just like really shitty or like PG-13 or just like not match sort of

the brutality of that experience and obviously people will be like oh like don't you know glorify violence but most of the video game movies they make unless it's like you know some sort of Nintendo like you know you know, Pikachu movie or whatever is usually about some sort of action-packed, more mature game. But then they try to dumb it down and make it PG-13 or even PG and sell it to younger kids. And like, nobody cares. I mean, I even remember, I don't know the rating, but I remember they made that movie, that Hitman movie that was also. There's been a couple. Yeah. Yeah, there was one. Was it? It was, I think like 2007-ish is when they made it. The one with, oh, shit, buddy was in

Mandalorian recently Oh no I'm trying to remember He was in the show Homeland Yeah yeah yeah yeah I can't remember his name But yeah he had the first hit man Yeah it was just terrible

Super campy super cheesy Just like it doesn't capture that It almost makes it offensive It's like these filmmakers who make these Just think it's a joke They think it's for kids They don't think it has any type of emotional impact at all when video games have a ton.

And people who actually are engaged and love the stories, it means a lot to them. I mean, it fucking inspired me to be a filmmaker. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like it has, it jump started a whole career that I've had. You know, tons of projects, like a whole life I have. And I think that's something that a lot of these big studios just overlook and they're just trying to make a quick money grab.

And I think that's unfortunate. Well, that first hitman too, like, uh, But I remember the huge backlash against it was that the voice actor is also the character model. So they could have just got the guy. Yeah. And instead they got the same thing with the reboot hitman. The reboot hitman at least looked more like 47. But yeah, complete like you had the guy.

It's it's it's it comes to a point where in that Hollywood system, it's a political thing of who is the hot after. who will make them more money, but they're always, like, wrong. That's what's so crazy is, like, with video game movies, they never get it right. You'd think that they would learn. Now, obviously, we have HBO, who's making the show. They're taking their own artistic liberties. The Last of a Show. Last of a show, yeah.

And they clearly didn't, you know, cast people that look identical, which I've spoken about a lot. I think the show is going to be great for what it is. I don't think, I think what they did is smart, even though it's kind of weird. I don't think that they're marketing towards gamers. I think they're marketing towards everyone else who's never experienced that story and now they're going to have experience at which I understand because the story is amazing.

And I remember when I played it, I'd be like, oh man, only if people who aren't gamers could see this story, they would be blown away. But obviously, if you're not a game, you're not going to sit through that. So I feel that with this HBO one,

I think it will be successful. I think that gamers are not going to be super satisfied, but I think they're going to be more satisfied than they usually are because I think the source material will at least be similar. I think that the only really difference is going to be the casting choices. But once again, I think that's okay because they're really marketing towards a more mature audience. I mean, HBO itself, like, you think about the type of people that watch HBO, and it probably is not a bunch of high school kids who don't like care, you know,

who just want to see a bunch of action. They've even spoken about that they want to focus more on the drama, you know, things like that. It's for a mature audience. And I think that that's probably going to be one of the first successful video game adaptations, honestly, adaptations tripping up. But, yeah, I mean, I once again think the hardest part is casting, the locations, and then just sticking to that source material of like what the energy, the violence,

the darkness of the game is, and they always drop the ball for some reason, whether it's so that they can make more money, you know, or have a different audience. It just never works. Well, the audience thing is one thing, because like you can look at, obviously, video games are the highest performing, like monetarily genre, I guess, in the world right now. But it's not gaming as a whole. It's like, you know, five games. You know, it's like, What is it? I almost said LOL, League of Legends, that kind of thing, you know, the competitions. I assume someone at a studio somewhere looked at the purchase sheet for Last of Us, saw that, whatever, 8 million people bought it. I don't know how many it's sold, probably more than that.

But, you know, and then just went like, well, that's not enough tickets. Yeah. There's way more people than eight, you know, so let's try to widen the field a little bit. So I can understand like that mentality. I'm wondering what your opinion is on more making an original script for a film adaptation because you could you could one-to-one copy the beat of the game in a film, the beat sheet of, you know, the game, and then go, there it is. And then everyone will go, yep, that's the story I remember. And it doesn't. And, you know, so how do you make a film that is both satisfying to the gamers, but then

also gives something that's more original than just the game, because that's kind of uninspired. And I'm sure the people working on it would be like, oh, great. Yeah, I mean, the question, that's a perfect question. And it literally is exactly what I've done with these past film. So look at the first one I made Ellie's Revenge. That one, I wanted to create the gameplay experience into a live action film. I just had I just wanted to really bad. I had this urge. And then I also wanted to recreate these scenes because they were so nostalgic and euphoric and I wanted to like honor naughty dog with them. And that was something during that moment in time I felt was just needed, right? That was not really me at my like full artistic potential or

creative potential. That was me just being like, I have to make this. I have I just have to. So I made that film. And it blew up. I mean, that is over a million views now in five months. It's like the fastest growing last of a fan film. There's Ben. And it worked. What I did worked. But the thing is, after that film, I left that film and I was very unsatisfied. You know, I didn't care about the growth.

I didn't give a shit. And I wake up to comments every day and likes. And I'm just like, don't care because I'm like, it's really cool. Probably the thing I'm proudest about with that film is the cinematography. I loved how I shot it. But once again, it's just like recreations of the scenes. Like I'm glad I gave the fans something that now like they've been waiting for. They're so happy.

But it didn't like push it farther. It didn't push it forward. It didn't like bring new emotions to them. So then I, you know, the months gone, went by and I once again had this kind of like just urge. I was like, you know what? I really want to make a sequel. I've been thinking about it. But I really want to focus on performance and story this time.

I don't want to focus on spectacle and just kind of that euphoria that people felt, right? I was like, I want to focus on something that's purely, just the performances, the story, and that's why it engages you. The idea that it's the last of us is more of an afterthought, right? I'm like, I want this to be something completely different, and I want the original route. You know, I just wrote a completely original scripts. You know, in my mind, it takes place after part two, you know, and it's in a way, It's kind of a little part three for people.

And, you know, the film was not, the film was not fully revolved around Ellie, as anyone can see. And it's funny because since I released it, I mean, it hasn't performed even close to as good as the first one, which is fine because I knew it wouldn't. A lot of people, especially the people who follow me or fans of the first one, were so confused because they were like, we expected a recreation of more of the scenes, more of the game. That's what we wanted. And a lot of people, though, commented, they were like, we expected something different, but we really like what you did. Like, this is really cool. And I'm happy that some people felt that way because I wanted getting, I wanted to get people's brain working. I wanted people to be like, wow, you can actually like push forward the story.

And hopefully, honestly, maybe what I did is also make people a little more open to the HBO's adaption because HBO is going to have a ton of new stuff that's never been seen. And I think that's cool. I think you need to. because if you keep repeating the same stuff it's already been done, there's just no point. There's just no point. And I think that I would be doing myself a disservice.

I would be doing naughty. And then remember this band. Yeah, like I would be doing everyone a disservice. And it would almost be like dishonorable to a naughty dog if I just kept recreating the stuff. You know, it's just like it's, I don't think it's worth it. And as a creator who makes 99% of my stuff is original, You know, I've only made, counting my high school last of us film, three last of us fan films.

I've made tons of other short films. I do a lot of original stuff. I love to create original content. I'm not someone who just likes to copy other work and then try to ride like a fame wave off. I don't want that. I do something based on how I feel and the urge, I feel creatively. And I left, after making They Will Come, I left incredibly satisfied. I don't have a million views.

I don't have, you know, it's been up like a week. I don't have like 300,000 views like the other one, but I don't care because I made the film and the story I wanted to. And I feel that the performances were strong. The characters were brilliant. I just felt that it, even if it's 3,000 people watching it, now those 3,000 people are seeing something they've never seen before. It's giving them an emotion that they've never felt, right? Even if it's close to what they felt, it's different because it's new people. characters. It's a new story. I'm putting them through different situations. I even have Ellie

doing different things than what she did in the game. And, you know, I still made sure to keep Ellie, you know, the character she is. She has the brutality, you know. And then at the end, we see that she still has that little bit of morality in a dark way. You know, when she kills the clicker and puts it out of its misery, it's like her way of showing she still has a moral kind of sympathy and empathy, which I think is very close to what this. game, you know, shows. Like, that's what you have to do. It's, there's no sugar coding with anything, you know? So the point that, like, a mercy killing is, like, the kindest thing you can do for someone. And I just completely love doing an original film that was in the world

of a video game. And I definitely want to do more of those. Like, that's something I would want to continue more. I don't really have a want or need to recreate anything from the games. and like I feel that I already did that and I'm good now like I don't want to yeah um you know it'd be I mean if like if I ended up getting in talks with the production company that signed a deal with naughty dog or even HBO and they wanted to bring me a board to shoot or or direct something that was a recreation fuck yeah I'd do it but for me personally like just independently creating the original stuff is I think more satisfying for everybody even if they don't know what I think It is.

Do you think there were, just thinking about the like the quagmire that trying to get anything to pop online is, can you identify any external factors to why people may have jumped on the first film so quickly and not the second one? Because obviously when you click a link, you're not going to know if it's original or a, or a derivative, you know, not derivative in a negative sense, but. They're not going to know. They're just going to see Last of Us and click it. Yeah. Yes. It was definitely shared everywhere. So when we first made Ellie's revenge, we had lots of trailers coming out.

We clearly had characters that looked just like the game. And, you know, we had an Instagram that was kind of growing, you know, like 1,000,000 followers, but still it was growing for us. And all of those people were spreading it everywhere. Twitter, you know, even before we released it, we had, they were just like, gaming journalist websites and stuff that were posting about us. We had GameSpot post about us, like all these places. It was something like a fan film hadn't been made in a while for The Last of Us

and something that actually was like the characters, looked like them. So I entirely believe that that film exploded because we did essentially a huge cosplay. It was a big cosplay that was done in a professional way. It looked really good. It didn't look, campy or weird. But that's how I always compare the two. It's like, Ellie's revenge was a huge cosplay, and it kind of was like destined to blow up. I knew it would.

Nope. All my friends that I told I was doing it and I was investing money, I spent like $10,000 on that film. Nope. Everyone was like, you're wasting your money. There's no way. And I'm like, dude, I'm a gamer. I promise you it will blow up because when I did the high school film, which was terrible, terrible. I had like this actor and he was like, you know, he didn't.

have the same body type as Joel and he had a wig on and I had my girlfriend at the time playing Ellie in like a Coca-Cola red shirt it was just it was terrible but it blew up it had it got like 300,000 views in a couple months and I was a high school with a YouTube channel of like five subs so I had a feeling after getting that cast together I was like cosplay is a huge community last of us huge community this is going to blow up for sure people are going to spread it and they did I was, I didn't think it'd get that many views, but after it did, I was just kind of like, that makes sense. And, you know, when it comes to this, I knew that nobody would want to share it. It pretty much, like, just after people realized, like a few people, after a few people

realized that it wasn't a cosplay, they stopped sharing it. And it just like stopped the circulation. Now, I did last, for Ellie's Revenge, I did an interview with Gameology, and they posted and that was a huge boost and they did another one with me for this one so you know hopefully it's able to boost it some more um i don't really care as much about the views but i would just love other people to see it like i'd love people from the community to see it see an original film that i feel was executed well um but yeah i think it's all based on just the source material and it improves even more though that like video game movies like people are really obsessed with just that recreation, they want that. Because there hasn't been a good, like,

video game movie that's really been made yet, I think that it makes people even more hungry for just having that recreation. I don't think people are ready for an original film. Like, I don't think they want that. Counterpoint, Free Guy. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Free guy, basically Grand Theft Auto, but they just kind of took the framework of it and then made a whole story around it. I enjoyed Free Guy. No, Free Guy was, that was a, fun movie that was really good um and i think i think people enjoyed that though because it didn't have a title of a different game sure you know if they called free guy like you know red dead redemption you know nobody would care you know or cyberpunk you know it would be a big flop but

they they were smart with what they did you know um cyberpunk probably should have been a movie let's be honest that would be instead of a game like it'd be a great movie i mean blade runner 2040 like that's one of my favorite films that came out in the past three years. I love that film. And they could easily do something like that for cyberpunk, you know? But once again, because it's a video game, they just don't take it seriously. They wouldn't connect like a real, like, amazing director and team with it. I don't think they would. They would find people who were just like, oh, there's sellouts, whatever, just make something to get us some money. Like, it's unfortunate. it. But I think because that keeps happening, people just want a cosplay. They want like a

professionally amazing cost. That's what they want. And if that was to happen for every game, then I think they could start to make original and people would really enjoy it. And yeah, I just don't think people are ready for original. But that's not going to stop me from wanting to create it because I just love to create original content. Well, and to be fair, like, Well, there's two things. Like one, you make something that's a quote unquote copy. You get a bunch of attention. And now you have an audience that you can put original content in front of

and people will fall off. But like the ones who they weren't going to stick around anyway, right? They wanted that one thing. So that's always something that I've thought like in my own work is kind of like, there's going to be times where you kind of have to bend the knee a little bit if you know that what you're doing reaches a goal. so for instance you said you dropped 10 grand on this thing i i assume you did not make that money back oh that's money but how did that yeah how did that uh how did that investment go for you do you feel

like do you think you made the money back in a different way what did you pay for i think that honestly a lot of it had to just do with like the satisfaction of creating it like on that crazy that I would spend that much for that satisfaction of just of making something that I've always wanted to see in live action I definitely there's a part of it that having people so happy and having a blow up was definitely worth it for me having the it was for the community you know like that the first film was totally all about the community and you know it's I think it obviously like will probably get me other work in the future as a cinematographer is what whatever someone sees it. I definitely made this film as something more personal to me.

This was much more of an investment for my career going forward. I felt that as a director, I spent a lot more time working on the writing, on the acting, everything like that. So I feel that this, that they will come is definitely something that was a perfect investment for me in that way. You know, I think there are both great investments, you know, for the future. And I also saw them as investments and maybe it will get the attention of naughty dog i would love to be a part of something they do you know i i hate the idea that anyone would think that like it's me against them that it's like some sort of competition that like this is to spite them it isn't like are you kidding me like that people send in resumes to get on these films you know when they've done

other films but like i literally made two fan films that are quality like i have the passion there i think it's clear and that is kind of another investment i made i feel that everyone a part of the projects because I worked at these people who love the games. All they want to do is keep being a part of this stuff. You know, this isn't us being like, this is ours, we're better, you know, look at the comments saying that HBO sucks, ha ha, it's not that at all. You know, I honestly, any comments I've been seeing that say really shitty things about HBO, I try to, if they're really negative, I get rid of them.

Like, you know, I try to keep like an open conversation because I don't want people to think that. This is more of something being like, look, you can call us nobodies, we're indie filmmakers, we're fan filmmakers, whatever you want to call it, we're small. Look what we can achieve with no budget with just passion, with passion skill. This is like our audition to be a part of either HBO or if, you know, some other indie production company gets rights to do it, which I'm sure will happen. I'm sure everyone's going to start getting, making some sort of films for Noddy Dog eventually professionally. And I just hope this is something in my portfolio and the rest of the people involved that it shows I think we'd be a great, you know, addition to the team, whether

it's in the writing room, it's in post-production, it's in something like we understand the story, we love the characters, and we nail the aesthetic. We completely get it, you know. And I think that's one of the biggest investments, too. I mean, I knew I wasn't going to get any money back. And obviously for a fan film, I don't think you even can. You're not supposed to. And I wasn't going to mess with that. It was just purely for my portfolio and the community. And once again, both were a big love letter to Nottie Dog.

Have you heard from Nottie Dog at all? Like anyone, like, tweet at you or anything like that? Never any tweets. Never any tweets, which did start to get me worried because I did, I do feel like, especially the first one, it went so viral, like somebody up there had to have seen it. because I've seen Neil Druckman tweet small films that have a hundred thousand people like someone has to um part of me gets a little worried that they saw that and like are upset with me about it or think that i was trying to be spiteful or something i don't

know i really can't describe it um and i don't want to put words or thoughts and into their head of what why they haven't but i have a lincoln and i've been able to successfully connect with a lot of people from naughty dog like lighting artists and stuff like that I've tried to, you know, send them very kind messages being like, I hope this makes your day better. I made this film. I did get a response from maybe two people for Ellie's revenge, but this current film I haven't. But the current film's only been out like a week, so I don't expect anything yet. But yeah, I mean, if there was a way I could get into any contact with people who do production at Noddy Dog or film production or anything, I mean, I would love to be a part of it.

I would love to be a part of it. you know this is not me saying i want to be separated i would love to be a part of their team um and i think that's once again that's part of the big investing of it i mean it's already a fragile thing like i'm putting my name out there i'm connecting my name to this so it could either go the way of let's blacklist that fucker for copying us and make this shit or it could go the route of wow you know this guy really appreciates what we did he did a really good job an honorable job let's let's bring him aboard so you know by putting my name out now on two within a year, I put myself in a pretty scary position

it could go either way. And it would be heartbreaking for me if they went the way of being like, fuck this guy, let's blacklist them. But it could happen, you know, I don't know. So going into the first film, were there, were there any skills that you had to kind of like, I suppose, level up to make that first film? And what were the lessons you learned in that regard? and then going into the second, like, what did you learn from that experience, you know? I think the biggest skills for the first one, time management, making sure that my, that I had the right equipment rigged out for the right scene. So I did something for that that I had never really done before.

So I, you know, up until about the past year, I've always just had one camera. I shoot on black magic cameras. I call myself indie black magic But I shoot on black magic cameras I was using the pocket 6K I love that camera And I about a year and a half ago I was able to get an Ursa mini pro 4.6K

And I got a nice cinema lens on there Tokina Zoom And for For Ellie's revenge I was like You know what We're only going to get two days to shoot in Oregon A bunch of scenes and we're only going to get two days in Atlanta So I was like for this shoot

I'm going to have a two camera set up, but it's going to be one camera with a wide lens, which was my 6K on a gimbal. So I had a 16 to 35 cannon so I could, you know, zoom in if I wanted to, but I stayed pretty wide. And then the Tokina, the Ursa, I had that zoom lens, which is a 50 to 135. So I was like any close-ups that I want to get that feel, I want to get that wide aperture feel and that out-of-focus boca. I'll just switch to that rig. And I had an easy rig on, and I was using a crane three. So I'd hook on the gimbal and I'd be able to, you know, we were going through this forest.

Like, it had hills. I had, for the first one, Isaac Gonzalez, he produced and wrote this, they will come with me. But on Ellie's Revenge, I had just met him. So he was kind of like a PA production assistant on set. He was a little. Yeah. He's amazing. I'm so happy I met him.

But he was literally like behind me holding my back as I just like treads through the forest. you know with this gimbal and we were so lucky that the footage is so like you know it's so steady and looks like it's floating because we were going over hills i'm just like tripping and he's holding me up um so and that was something the only way we achieved it is because of the gear that i was kind of strategizing to use and then you know there's scenes like in the first one there's this whole scene with the bow and they're shooting all these dudes i have the zoom lens on that I'm getting more close-ups. It's a different type.

So pretty much having that two-camera setup made everything run so smooth because I was shooting it. There was no one there to shoot it. You know, I didn't have money to hire a crew, hire a DP, anything like that. And I just knew, I knew what I wanted to get. I knew I had some skills to get it. So I was like, I might as well. But I just surrounded myself by a cast who was, they were indie filmmakers too.

You know, they were, they did as much as they could to help in any way. And obviously, you know, Isaac was on board. He was my right-hand man. He helped so much. But having the right, like, literally load out, the same way in a video game before you go into a multiplayer match, you've got to get the right load out. You have to do that with filmmaking, especially running gun. Because if you don't, you fuck up.

And you find parts where you're like, damn it, I could have gotten that shot, but I didn't have the right setup. And, you know, it takes time to set up. You got to set up the equipment. And I used to not think like that. I used to just grab my stuff and be like, all right, let's head out and shoot and just kind of deal with it there. But we had zero, we had no time. All the scenes in the first one that had like Dina and Jesse and all these other characters,

we shot in one day, the second day, one day, all those scenes. And then the second day was just Ellie. And that's when we did like the scene in the woods with the scars and just stabbing them in the neck and stuff. And a lot of that was Gimple. You know, for that film, I wanted to stand again. gimbal. I wanted it to feel like the floaty camera that you see in a game, right? I wanted it to feel like that. I wanted to recreate that gameplay because I was, I loved it so much. Then you fast forward to, they will come. And after testing that on Ellie's revenge, I've used it more on my other

stuff over the months. And for this film, I carried the same thing. I had the same idea. I had two different camera setups. This time I was using a 6K pro. And I actually captured about 90% of the audio from that. I had a Sennheiser mic connected little mini XLR, and I think it sounded fantastic. And I actually didn't do really any gimbal on They Will Come. I had a, just kind of like a rigged-out black magic with a handle and stuff, and I would have my easy rig and have it just holding. So I got more of a kind of like floaty feel, more, not really like, you know, just like moving like that. it was more just kind of like a natural floaty feel more similar to what you would get with like a traditional steady cam right um and yeah i mean that was that was the main thing that i had to really get down and i think that if someone's going to pull off a film

like this where there's literally like no crew um what they will come i i had isaac as a producer and he once again was just my right hand man we were the crew and then we had actors and we had all these spots, all these locations, you know, Isaac lives in L.A. I live in Chicago, so I had to build the sets on my own, the weeks building up. And, you know, it's just like, you have to want it. You have to know exactly what you want, and you just have to keep pushing. And then you have to prep like crazy. And I don't even mean prep by like, I don't really prep shot lists a lot. Like shot for me when I shoot these things, like I'll have an idea of the shots I want. I haven't written down. But Usually I get on set and it just kind of changes because I start feeling different ways the actors are performing or I see different angles and it all kind of comes together there.

So what I really prep is my gear. I prep my gear. I make sure I have the right stuff for the right time. And then the shots would flow out. You know, there's no need to be like, you know, I need this and this and this because I already know. And I have the right gear to get it. So that answers your question. Sure.

What were some things that like, you know, so. for a major film or whatever you want to call that, you know, there's a metric dick ton of pre-production, you know, it's not even just pre-production. It's doing rehearsals and, you know, building the sets and all that kind of thing, getting everyone hired, you know, QCing everything kind of from, you know, fix it in pre-situation. Since you were just kind of like running and gunning, were there things that you could have fixed in pre-production that you kind of, you kind of, you kind of, weren't able to get to on the fly or was did that does that seem to work out for you pretty well um honestly it all kind of worked out really well like we didn't we didn't have any reshoot days we didn't have anything that was so messed up that we had to reshoot it um if anything obviously like i feel that i could have done more with production design i could have done just more if i had you know more materials if i had more people helping if i had other people with different eyes that could see things I couldn't. You know, I am completely a team player. I love working

with a team. I just like, I'm never really in a situation where I have that around me. So I kind of just, I just kind of have to do it on my own. And I'm always lucky when I'm able to find good team members because I really feel like they're hard to find. You know, I've worked with so many teams, so many people. And a lot of times it's just ended in like bullshit. Like, it's just problems and if not even for me it could be two cast members or crew members who are fucking with each other and screw shit up like it's just like the worst so I'm very picky about a team and I've kind of made myself like a bunch of different team members within myself but yeah I mean I feel like you know if I had more production design people if I had more people with prepping

stuff like that I think the quality obviously could have raised I think there could have been more I think if we had someone who was specifically on locations, they could have probably found more stuff and we could have gotten more scenes of walking through locations. But, you know, like for the house and they will come, it was my parents' house. So I, you know, I don't live with them. So I had to go back and be like, hey, could I use your house? Because I grew up there. And, you know, it's a, it's a nice tall, wooden Victorian farmhouse style. They keep it very, you know, just like nice and old. So basically I was like, they're not going to let me put fungus all over the walls. So the garage in the back, they pretty much use the storage.

I'll clean that out. And then I'll build up these foam walls and do whatever I want to them. But then I was like, shit, I need a stairway. I need to have like rooms that she's like going into. So we used like the main stairway in sort of the like foyer area. I convinced some of and they let me kind of, you know, mess that up along with like right at the top of the stairs. but that's all, you know, and there are things I wish it could, I always wish it could look more old, have more paint falling off the walls of the ship, but I could only do so much to their house.

But, you know, it's things like if we had a designated location person who was amazing at that, was able to get us stuff, you know, maybe we could have found a huge abandoned place that we were able to put shit on the walls and do all these things. So there would be wider shots and more kind of set pieces. So, yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of things that could have always went better in that way. I think, though, with the resources we had and the things that we were able to attain, I think we definitely did the best of what we had. I think that's like the main thing.

For sure. Well, and also, like, I really want to make sure that, like, I'm giving you the credit you deserve because the number one thing that stops people, in my experience, from success, honestly, is they're always waiting for, well, if once I, you know, Stephen Pressfield, who wrote the War of Art describes it as resistance. Resistance is this pernicious sort of force that makes you believe that there's a more perfect time to make your thing. You know, if only I had this gear, or if only I took this class, or once I've done this retreat, then I will be able to make my thing. And clearly, you know, you're one of the people that goes like, that, I need to make

it so I'm going to make it with what I got, you know, and obviously I think all of us try to make it as good as you can up until the point in which you're making it. But most people don't make the thing. There's too much resistance in the way. I got to wait until I've gone to this school or whatever, you know. And what's really fucked up is the film school I went to, I feel that that was something that was taught. There was always that idea taught. And a lot of the people I went to school with had that same mentality. They would never just go and try to make something quality with little resources. They would never, and if they had little resources, they would just act like it was trash,

and it would be terrible because they wouldn't put effort. Like they didn't understand that you can have little resources and still put all of your effort and make something great. And I felt that my school was really on that thing of like, wait until you have this and you got to get this to do this. And you got to have this. And then it will be like this. you know it was it was interesting yeah and and i it was so weird to me because i was the opposite you know if i felt like i wanted to make a film and go back home and do it i didn't have a lot of shit to do

it i would just go do it and i would try my best and by doing that again and again and again it got better and i feel like that's how i got to the point that i was able to make something that looked like they will come looks like ellie's revenges because i got so used to it and um you know i it's like frugal filmmaking basically. You know, it's just like using anything you can get and not treating it like it's shit, like treating it like it's high quality and making it as good as you can. And yeah, I mean, the excuses are so easy to come by. You know, I could easily come by excuses, but I just, I got to a point that I knocked myself in the ass and stopped thinking that way, because I definitely did. I definitely went through moments where I would not do something

because I felt like, oh, but I might need this to do it. And I probably need to get this. set and all this shit. I actually did sort of go through that for this film. They will come when I was trying to find a house to use because as I said to you, I wish I had a full abandoned house that I could just have shit everywhere. I clearly didn't. And I pushed through that mentality and I said, you know what? No, I'm going to shoot in the garage. I'm going to build something. I'll use what I can in here and I'm going to make it great. I'm going to add some of the effects. I'm going to do some cool production design. I went and got a bunch of fucking leaves and everything, put him everywhere, like, I was like, I'm just going to work with what I got,

and I think it will be great. And I think we sold the illusion of the story we were trying to tell for the sets. And so far, we've gotten good responses from the sets that were created. So, you know, I was like, it was a success for me in that way. I was like, that's great. It worked. So, yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've seen the people generally online. A bunch, you know, a handful of the DPs that I've spoken to on this podcast have all been like kind of, echo that same sentiment of like, if you want to tell a story, go tell a story. You have an iPhone. You know, there's an old interview with David Fincher where students apparently would come up to him and be like, I can't make my movie yet. And he's like, don't you own an

iPad? Like, do your parents have an iPad? You can storyboard on it. You can write the script. You can shoot it. You can edit it all on the iPad. And I think that's, that's something I've noticed is there's like definitely a group of people who think that the production value is what's going to make them make people take them seriously and not the story they're trying to tell at the end of the day film is a storytelling medium even though you know I'm a cinematographer exclusively for the most part and of course I love pretty pictures but I don't like just run around filming pretty pictures for the sake of it you know because that's not a story yeah exactly so I take pictures yeah I feel you. Yeah, it's, you know, if we lose storytelling, then there's nothing there. And I think that even like, even like the dumbest of audience, I don't want to call them dumb, but even the people who don't can't sit through a film that has, you know, is deep, you know, who can only sit through like a fast and furious movie or even like an Avengers movie, even they hate movies that don't have some sort of storyteller.

You know, even people who like really only go to movies for action, they need to have something there. And once you lose all of that, like people, it will flop. It will be. And I think that's what video game movies do the worst out of all of them is it's just like shit. It's just like action sequences that are really tacking and then like horrible dialogue and like a story that doesn't even make sense because they're trying to only make it for gamers who get the inside idea of what it is. And you know what I mean? So it's like, and that just doesn't work. I think storytelling is so important.

It's literally what they teach you in English class in grade school. Have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And, you know, that's, there are so many movies that are made now, unfortunately, that have a beginning in a middle, and it just ends abruptly, and I hate that. I honestly, so I don't know if you saw the new Michael Myers movie, Halloween Kills. That just came out. Yeah, so I saw the first one, the like recreation that David Gordon Green did, which he actually went to UNCSA as a director. Which one was that? I saw one of the, was everyone ends with Michael in a basement, like locked up in a basement. They catch it on fire.

That one, that one. So I saw that one. Sorry to give that away to anyone who didn't. Oh, no, you're good. I saw that one and I was like, you know what? It was pretty cool. I'm not a big fan of movies where innocent people. or just getting like brutalized and murdered. I don't really like to watch that shit. Sure. I'm all cool with violent movies, but if it has a purpose, I like it. If not, I'm kind of like, the fuck is this.

But I thought that movie was pretty good, and I felt that it did sort of have a beginning, middle, and conclusion. It was, for the most part, satisfying. But then this film, now I know that they have two parts, and I guess the way they marketed it, they really lied to everyone, and they made it seem like this movie. I did not know it had a second part. Exactly. Nobody did. So this literally was just like beginning and like not even a middle. It was like beginning and like almost to the middle and then it ends.

And it was second matrix problem. Yeah. It's just like so unsatisfying and shitty and it's like not storytelling because all they did was show a bunch of people. It's like gore porn. But it's like it's not even like saw where it's like creative. It's just like terrible. For some reason the filmmakers have like they get like turned down. by seeing people die in front of their loved ones. That was something that I almost thought was, like, offensive in the film. I was like, bro. Look, I love, like, the last of us is one of the most brutal, fucking, like, stories ever, right? And I love it. The gameplay is so brutal. But, you know, when you start making films, it's just, like,

showing people getting murdered in front of their loved ones, and they're defenseless and they're stupid. And no one, everyone always walks into the room by themselves. Like, it doesn't make any sense. I'm just like dude and then it ends and there's no there's no middle or conclusion and I left the theater very upset because I was like wow that was just

I rarely go to the theater now and I rarely go to see movies so when I do and it's like that I'm like what the fuck is that I'm like that's that's worse than even like a movie like Marvel's I'll watch Marvel movies and I like them for the most part because even though it's all kind of a string of like they're going to make sequels they still kind of have a little bit of a conclusive thing at the end. At least you see something satisfying happen that like concludes that

mini story, right? But when films don't do that, I think it just defeats the purpose. It's like what the fuck is the point? Like you have to tell a story. If you're going to tell a story, there's a reason they taught you in English class to have a beginning, middle, and end. Because if you don't, it's just like you leave so unsatisfied. And it's like, it sucks. something that we're kind of like touching on a lot is makes me think of a film professor of mindset basically to make a successful film everyone thinks that everyone wants like some crazy twist or um to break the mold and it's just not true like you're saying about um audiences that aren't maybe film literate their brain doesn't know but their heart does

and so this film professor basic the reason i'm being cagey is because i'd don't remember who it was, but they said, um, the best, the easiest way to make a movie that it succeeds is just take a genre film and put a new skin on it. Like you like it, you take noir and then you add sci-fi. And then that equals your film and, you know, whatever, Blade Runner. It would be that case. Um, you know, it, and then you, like you're saying, you, you, you can give the audience some twists and turns, but Chekhov's guns got to get fired. You know, we want to, you don't need to feel good. But we want to feel satisfied with going on the journey.

People want to see their lives explained on screen. And that formula doesn't really change. Those kind of like three or four elements don't tend to, in successful films, don't tend to change very much. I do think that people can get a little ahead of themselves. It's like stick to the classics until you know what the hell you're doing. Then then work on trying to be super avant-garde about it. Yeah, definitely. I agree. I agree completely.

Was there any, you said you don't go to movies. Is that just because you watch them at home? Or are you just not watching films that much anymore? I'm just so busy now. I have two kids. Oh, wow. Okay. I have kids. And when I'm not working, I'm with them. So I just like, I mean, I honestly usually watch shows more than I do movies. Strangers are making some great shows right now.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, TV shows are like insane. And that's another thing, like the same way video games became super cinematic and now have so many amazing stories, I really feel the TV, the past 10, 15 years has done the same thing. And it has only gotten better and only bigger, you know, and I think that's incredible. So usually I tend to watch shows and series more than I do films. and that's the thing usually when I go see a film in the theater it's a big deal for me I'm like I'm taking my time you know I'm gonna go see this film in a theater it's supposed to be super big and epic that's the reason I'm going so if it sucks I'm like what the fuck was this because I do I don't think theaters will ever die off

completely but I think it's been clear that especially after COVID hit that like I think movie theaters definitely are not as popping as they used to And I don't think that they will continue to get more, to get better. I think it's only going to go down little and little because now you have Amazon and Apple and everyone. Now they're all making movies and they put it on their streaming service. People want to watch a movie at home. I don't think there's any problem with that. I don't think that cinema necessarily you have to go sit in the theater and wash it.

I think that it's a cool way to really take in the visuals, take in the audio. I think audio is a big thing about that. I hate listening to a film over my TV speakers. You can't hear fucking anything. It's like a disrespect to the sound designers. But I think the theaters are kind of going down. And I think TV and movies on streaming services are going to keep going up, you know. You know, it's funny is you say that you mentioned that you,

something that I've heard a lot of people say who say they don't have a lot of time, all say they watch television shows. And I'm like, nine, one hour shows. shows is more time than an hour and a half movie. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's weird. It's weird. I don't know.

It's like, I'm trying to figure out the psychology behind that because, like, I don't, I don't get it. Like, my girlfriend's the same way. She's like, she'd rather watch a show than a movie, whereas I'm the opposite. I think it's like for the show, I don't always finish an episode. You know, I might jump in, watch like 45 minutes, and then I jump out and go somewhere else or do something, then I come back and I keep watching. And I never feel like I am super out of the loop.

I feel like a movie. So like for me, a movie, which is why I love making movies. I want to make movies. I don't really have an interest in TV. I like movies. It's like one big experience pushed towards you. But for me, if I ever like pause a movie and like wait to finish another day or have to pause it and leave for a while and I come back, all of that sort of like impact for me goes

away. like it just it goes away and i'm just kind of like i'll finish it i'll be like that's that's great but it has nowhere near the same uh impact as it would if i watch the whole thing through i think that's why movie theaters probably are so important to people is because it forces you to do that but for me like tv already is so like separated by like episodes and all that that i kind of it's almost like it's like tv shows or like gossip it's like it's just like gossip it's just like drama shit right so it's like you you experience some of it you walk away and you think about it and then you're engaged in it and then you continue it and just keep watching it for a movie it's something

totally different if i don't know if that makes sense yeah i and so my thought process was because i'm still trying to fit i don't have like a thesis on this yet but i've but i've wondered is it the fact that a film demands both your attention as you're saying but commitment and people like I think in an this is like old man screaming at clouds now but like in a in a world where like your phone is constantly wants your attention your Apple Watts wants your attention your email Bing Dong wants your attention you know someone knocked at the door well not anymore we used to get excited people would knock on your door and be like oh yes now someone knocks on your door and you're like fucking hide turn off the lights um but you know everything wants your

attention and so it can feel day to day as if you don't have time or more specifically you don't have the resources to commit to something, whereas a film, you know, when you're in a theater, you can't take out your, I mean, you shouldn't take out your phone, you know, and you're stuck right there. And the experience is better. When you're saying cinema doesn't have to live in a, in a theater, you know, obviously your, your, you're, you know, uh, Spielbergs would disagree. Cinema is the theater. You know, that's the church. A lot of people, uh, grow, I feel like I'm preaching now now that I've said that. But like, that was, that was the way that I came up with it. You know, it was like, you went there and that was like the experience. And so I've, yeah,

same thing. I got the 4K TV with like the nice sound and everything and, you know, the criteria in Blu-rays or whatever. So it's like the best quality. But I still prefer, you know, I got that AMCA list so I can like go go to that experience. You know, there's nothing of a 50-foot head feels different. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I, uh, maybe one of the reasons I didn't like the Halloween kills movie as much too as it was all sold out so I had to sit in the first row looking stuff which I haven't do that and that sucked but I mean my eyes adjusted to it but definitely did not like that I didn't when you watch a movie you got to be back you got to see the full screen you got to see it right there I see yeah I sit in the you know dead center as much

as I can the I don't know why they sell those front two rows that are in front of that rail like It's the worst experience. It's not nice. It's like, I remember, I remember what film was it. Shit. I think it was like old school or something. I just remember it was like a Will Ferrell movie. And I just remember being in the front row.

Or no, no, you know what it was? It wasn't me. It was my friend Chris Slack. And he walked to the front row and sat there because this is before reserve seating. So there was just nothing left. So me and like a friend sat kind of in the good spot. And then he was out in the front with like another friend. friend of ours. And there was a scene where like Will Ferrell basically like tea bags the camera

like 30 minutes into the movie. And I just watched, I just watched Chris and James just stand up and walk out. They were over it. They're like, that's enough for me. I don't need anymore. Anyway, theory aside, we're hitting on the hour here. So the way I like to wrap up every podcast is by asking the same two questions. One is what is a film that you, would recommend people see or one that like inspired you or one that you think is is really good and two um a piece of advice that you received that is stuck with you from maybe a mentor or a professor or friend even okay so in terms of films honestly um i think i think the new so going past last of us that was the time of my life that

jump started you know me wanting to get into storytelling seeing the first game but obviously like i've you know as i've grown i've i've i've grown more accustomed to having films inspire me more and i honestly we were talking about a lot white runner 2049 probably is is my favorite film of the past few years um and it's so sad that that film was like a flop right didn't it like not do very well because people just like didn't really i think like the they people people didn't like even know what it was really like it was kind of like an inside thing they were expecting people from the original blade runner to go to it but then the newer generation like the fuck is blade runner um i think for me that film is just like beautiful i think the storytelling the visuals everything is just like cinema at its finest um that's a film that i think in theaters you have to watch um because i've watched it on tv and i don't like it as much in the cinema it's too much better it's insane 1917 was the same way. People were like, yeah, I tried to watch it on, you know,

I was like, what's wrong with you? You have to, I paused it halfway through. It's like, no, it's a one take. You have to watch it as a one take. But then also, the black magic lady just emailed me. She went, how to go? Every time. But yeah, 1917.

And I think Dune, my sister saw a press screener of Dune with her friend, which, I mean, no, she didn't. Let me retake that. My sister saw press screener of Dune and I was just like, that's going to be terrible. Like, Dune is shot Nimex. Like you're going to, not all of it, but you're going to want that. It's made for that, you know? But yeah, 2049, I think just didn't do well because it was a little long.

You know, people see a two, you know, a two hour, 45 minute film and they kind of go, and yeah, I think people weren't. I think the idea that Roger Deacons was going to. shoot a sci-fi film was very exciting for the internet but doesn't no one gives a shit like the general public doesn't know who he is you know and that's the thing for me that's i think that's my favorite cinematography's ever done now obviously you know 1970 insane amazing like in terms of just like the evolution of cinematography the fact that that could get pulled off is incredible but just like every frame for me in blade under 2049 like i was in

in that world completely um and i i just felt that it was a complete work of art and for me and my style and everything like it's one of those films where everything you ever see a movie and you want things to happen and then they happen so it just makes you happy as hell that's good writing yeah and that's what kept happening and i was actually talking about that back to that Halloween kills movie that movie the reason i fucking hated it is because every single thing i'm like don't walk out there don't do this why are you doing that that's a stupid idea. They always did the stupidest shit. And I'd be like, please just do this and they wouldn't. And films that do that, I hate, I hate it. If a film is able to, and it's not even about

being predictable, because it's just like, it's things that I'm like, I wish that this would happen next and it happens. Or there's like an aesthetic. I'm like, oh my God, if they have this type of scene or they fill this type of like energy, like that would be so fucking cool. And 2049 did that for me like I just thought it was incredible um the scenes with um Harrison Ford and Ryan Gosling and just like the grit in their voice and the way they put like just so good um and the length like that was a type of movie that I wish it was fucking longer I would have sat there for five hours and watched it you know like it was just I was so engaged in the world um and I would definitely recommend that to a lot of people and um

I think that when it comes to storytelling, when it comes to performance, when it comes to visuals, sound design, lighting, just every aspect, that film is like masterful. So, you know, that's something I would recommend for people to see just to really, like, experience something new. Because I think it is something new. I had never seen anything like that. And I think when that came out, it had just come out after the latest Star Wars movie or something. So I had a lot of friends at film school who, because I watched it in the film school, who had, seen the Star Wars movie and they loved it. I saw the Star Wars movie after 2049 and I was like...

Was that nine or eight? Nine, right? It was nine. It was the final one. And I was just like... Oh boy. Yeah, I was just like, you know, like, I just... Before 2049, I had never really seen a super modern, like, neo-noir,

uh, sci-fi film with the same like sort of like dark. darkness action sequences story just all of that I had never really seen that been pulled off and the only really thing that was like a modern type of film being made was like the Star Wars movies which had insane CGI were cool but it was just I've never been a huge like Star Wars fans so like the kind of the charm of it and like the not as how it's not it's not it's not super dark obviously you know and I just kind of like eh you know it feels to me like a PG-13 type of story and you know i'm not someone who's obsessed with ratings but when a film feels like a rating it kind of annoys me i feel like film whatever story like like if if it should be r but they locked

it to pg 13 or whatever i mean i mean even like like they made it for the rating yeah like like it's like this if there's a story like the story of blade under 2049 without me ever knowing the rating the film should just have gone that direction that it is with the brutality and everything like there should be nothing that limits it there should be not and it's not a particularly brutal film like it's got a couple little bloody parts maybe and the rest of it's just like you know dark maybe and that's the thing it's like the darkness and i you know obviously a pg 13 movie they can't go that dark because going that dark is just like you're going to fucking scare these kids watching you're going to scare people like you can't do that and it's just like

or you end up making spawn yeah you make a spawn but i just like i just like you're just like that film I just loved it I never thought about the rating nothing I just it was just it was perfect it's exactly what I wanted you know everything I wanted to happen and it happened um another thing that I had uh yeah we'll let you go here in a second another thing that I had heard I can't I don't think this was perfect I just read this but uh that that thought process of oh I want something to happen and then it happens the way it was described to me is like you want to write a script in which you lay enough crumbs that the audience thinks they solved it themselves, even though that's where you were taking them.

They think they came up with it before it happens and it makes you feel good because you feel like you're ahead of the story, even though you're doing a bit of a magic trick and still leading them along. But yeah, finally, a piece of advice that you've gotten that is stuck with you or something you've read, maybe that had an impact on you. I'd say a piece of advice, definitely from my directing faculty at my school. I was very close with my directing faculty. Eric Easton and Tim McCann, those are the two guys I was really close with.

You know, what was inspiring to me about them was that they were, they were independent filmmakers while they were professors at school. So the things that we were doing, they were outside of school, still doing the same thing. And you know, they're in their 40s, I'm pretty sure. And you know, they're older and they're still doing it. You know, it's not just, it's almost like this day and age,

people think that like only youth, only young people are gonna be the ones who are out doing these indie films. Like if you're older, you have to be in the studio shit and just like do that. But it was inspiring to me and I mean pretty much the advice that they gave, they gave me was just to like stay true to the type of films and stories that I want to make. And, you know, if I am capable of writing and I have a camera

and I know how to edit, just to go and do it. And I think that's something that is super simple and it's something that has been the most effective tool for me to push forward was that and once you break through that and realize that you don't have to necessarily rely on other people and wait for other people to give you approval to do it or tell you okay now you have the right stuff and a lot of times that other person is in here you know it's it's in here and it's saying as we said like oh now you have that or you have to wait to this I think once you get past that and you realize that literally everything to make the film is in here and with these then you're good and um you pointed to his head in his hands those listening and uh i i

think another big thing too actually which not necessarily was advice but an experience one thing that um eric easton did is he he really wanted us to feel what it was like to be actors and we had a couple classes where he would have actually a lot of the classes for a semester he would have us like we would come we would come to class and have to like act like we would have to like prepare monologues and all this shit because he wanted us to feel how difficult it was to be an actor and that was something that was huge for me with with directing actors because before that it's like why aren't they doing their job like come on you can do it and and you know saying stupid shit be sad be happy don't you know the best advice oh man that's film school directing

right there. All right, so you're sad. Show me you're sad. But once you feel what it's like to be an actor and have somebody directing you, because we would direct each other, you really start to pick up what actually works, how to speak with people. It's all about how you interact with people. You know, it's all about how you interact with people. You know, I think that if you're, if you're a director that is just like a tyrant and just wants to tell everybody how to do it, even if you're able to make a beautiful film, I think that it's 1% of the potential it could have been. I think that you need to talk to people and, you know, work with them, you know, respect their creative ideas too.

And yeah, I mean, when it comes to actors now, I have the utmost respect to them. Actually, what's funny is even before, as an independent guy, even before I started like ever bringing on, like, crew to hire, I first started doing that with actors like before it even came to like hiring crew people I would just get my friends to work with me for free I would hire actors even if they were people first starting out I would give them a chunk of change

because I just respect that art so much and if they're not on the screen then it's just the city symphony I'm just filming buildings and shit you know it's like so I am yeah I think respecting actors walking in their shoes and then just using your resources and doing the best with them.

I think that's the best advice for anybody. Hey, and you know what? That's why I use black magic cameras because they're affordable and they're fucking amazing. Love the color science. And yeah. Right on, man. I would love, have you read The War of Art? I have no.

It's a very thin read. I would encourage you to read it because it's a book built. written by a writer, the guy who wrote Legend of Bagger Vance and short read, but it talks that concept of resistance that you're talking about. I think you'll read it and just go, this is exactly what I'm thinking. I think he'll articulate it very well, even though you're living it already.

I learn new things, and I think being able to talk out my perspective and listen to your perspective and everything, I think that filmmakers should always want to talk to other people. I think the worst thing a filmmaker can do is just have an idea and then just stick with it and just never try to communicate with other people and just only go with that. You'll never grow that way. Never grow.

I think growth is so important. Yeah, those who fail the most win. Yes, absolutely. That's what I'm saying. And I have fucking failed a lot. I can say that. I have a lot of failure. And it has been my best teacher

It has been my best teacher Like the the act of failing And then getting yourself together And trying again is literally like An incredible feeling And you literally are like reborn when you do it But it's hard It's the hardest thing

You even accept that you failed You know because you're you know I've been through times where you just want to blame everything else Then you get to the point where you start blaming the universe Like oh the fucking universe as soon as I stopped doing that and I took accountability for myself that's when you get so powerful do not to ask you another question even though technically signed off but do you remember do you remember that what was the thing that switched that for you was it like an a hard lesson or was it

like something you researched or like when was that pivot point um because it sounds like you're saying there was like a moment where you stopped or was it just kind of gradual I mean I I think it was gradual. It was definitely through film school. It was, you know, doing projects with people that it didn't work out. It was doing things where, you know, I'd have films that would get canceled and or I would be shooting something and I would fuck up and, you know, maybe I would piss off an actor or do something and it just wouldn't work out. You know, just things like that, things that were easy to try to blame everyone else for and be. like, oh, it was because of this and this.

Once I started realizing, like, I am accountability. If I am directing a film, if I am leading it, I'm a leader. So if things are fucking up under my direction, if things are happening in the sidelines and it's ruining everything, like, I need to take responsibility for that because I'm a leader. Yeah, I think that's what it is. I think that's where the failure really comes from. It's just like, you know, trying to start a film and not working. relationships, lots of failures in relationships, you know, maybe it maybe it is someone who was

incredibly hard to work with and I didn't enjoy working with them. But a lot of the times the way I handled it was not as good as it could have been. And nowadays I work with tons of very difficult people. I have actors that don't get along with each other. But it's not my job to be like, all right, like fuck you then and start talking to them like that and responding with the same type of energy. It's my responsibility to be the one that mends it and keeps everything civil and moving forward. And that's kind of where I've come. I mean, obviously, you got people who are crazy and you have to get rid of them. But yeah, I think it's just never reacting based off just pure emotion is the biggest thing because I used to do that a ton and I don't do

that. I think and I react accordingly. I try to react logically. And I try to react logically and I I give myself time. I don't do it just instantly anymore. Thanks again for spending the time with me. A lot of fun. And yeah, we'll see you around. All right. Thank you so much, Kenny. For sure, man. Later. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition.

Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F-At-Armapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro VideoCoalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.