Frame & Reference Podcast - 49: DP Kaity Williams

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Welcome back to the podcast! This week Kenny talks with cinematographer Kaity Williams. Kaity is an active member of the American Society of Cinematographers Motion Imaging Technology Council Lens Committee and has been featured several times in American Cinematographer magazine. In this episode Kenny & Kaity talk about some of her complex car cinematography as well as her journey into the industry. Enjoy! Check out Kaity on instagram. Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with Katie Williams, who is a fantastic cinematographer. She shot Before the Dawn won a bunch of awards for that. She shot a bunch of documentary stuff. You know, she does a lot of, like, really highly technical car cinematography, which we get into. She is a member of the American Cinematographer Motion Imaging Technology Council Lens Committee. I remembered it. Good for me. You know, the Cine Lens Manual just came out.

That friend of the pod, Jay Holbin, and Christopher Probst. wrote Christopher Brooks, another member of the ASC. So you can pick that up. She worked on that. She's been featured an American cinematographer a handful of times. So, you know, just a fantastic person to talk to. I certainly learned a lot and I'm sure you will too. So I'm going to now shut up and then immediately start talking five seconds later, like normal. So please enjoy my conversation with Katie Williams. What got you into filmmaking? I know you kind of got a similar start to a lot of people,

which is like, you know, just picking up a camera and goofing off or being in case your sister or whatever. But like what made you want to start shooting those little home videos? Right. I mean, I guess, yeah, we all kind of have a similar story. But the unique situation on my end is to have a twin sister that was doing the same thing. So I feel like anything that was. around the house. We would try as children do, you know, finding whatever's. And yeah, when we found a camera and we started making home videos of whatever, generally learning things as we went.

Like, you can actually hit start and stop. Before that, we were just like distracting the audience with like looking at a wall, you know, like, hey, check us out while the other one fixed whatever. And all right, back to your regular, you know, scheduled program. I remember being in middle school and kind of figuring out that that was like a legit career that you can pursue. But of course, it's all out further. Like when you're middle school, it doesn't matter because you have to be old to work. And that's not to like 10 million years. But yeah, I feel like knowing that that was a job option and middle school was really young and really kind of great that it was already on the radar.

Um, but yeah, once it became more serious to figure out what you wanted to do, um, that was still an interest and that was still something to pursue. I didn't know at that point that I wanted to be like a cameraman or like what part behind the camera that, you know, I was going to pursue her that she was going to pursue. At one point, I think I wanted to do producing and she wanted to be the director. But clearly, that's not how it ended up. So. Or you never know. I don't plan on producing. But you could. Were you watching a lot of films growing up? Or was it more just like a Hollywood kind of stumbled into? Yeah, I remember being in like second grade. And my sister and I were obsessed with the Titanic movie.

Like yeah, we would even go by. Yeah, yeah, that was so such a great movie. I don't know for second grade. But it was like, you know. So I think. And that has, like, some of the best cinematography, you know, from Russell Carpenter. But maybe, you know, there was some inspiration from that. There has to be, you know.

Yeah, very influenced on, like, classic movies like that and Forrest Gump. So, yeah, good taste since then. Yeah, you know, it's funny because I was thinking about that, like, because you're probably one of the younger people I've interviewed. And a lot of... Are you sure? Maybe I just looked 12. I think so. Okay.

I won't ask, but I'm pretty sure. Based on my internal timeline. But it does seem a lot of like the younger you skew, the more it's, I'll put myself in that boat where it's like sci-fi or genre films that kind of like get people excited about film and a lot less like criterion or anything like that. did you um when you started to like you know realize like this was kind of your thing did you go back and look up a lot of behind the scenes or like how stuff was made and stuff like that or because i know education is kind of something that excites you a little bit yeah which i think also came later you know like um as a kid you didn't know like the magic that went behind it It just kind of happened.

Like, that's, you just shot it. You were ready to go, right? But going back, you know, seeing even Russell talk about lighting that Titanic and working with water and the specific challenges that come with that and safety protocol to have, you know, certain lamps, you know, not be able to explode everywhere. Yeah, it's like so it, I'm so interested on like seeing behind the scenes on such. a big scale movie like that because it's just so out of reach it seems um but it's really you know similar to what we do just on a bigger level yeah do you do you still buy like physical media

so you can get like um EPKs and like behind the scenes featureettes and stuff yeah like i literally just bought like the blue ray of a conran hall movie called um in cold blood because like you know i just got that too oh perfect yeah i've been on a um i've been on a criterion tear. So, like, they'll go on sale and I just end up picking up, like, 10 of them. Yeah. Well, I love owning the hard copies, like Blu-ray or DVD, even CDs. But I'm running out of space, so I'm embracing the digital age, you know.

Like, let's just download it. But something like Conrad Hall, you got to physically own that, you know? You got to have that in your back. But also, like, you never know. Like, you'll see people, like, editing the. movie out from under the streamer. Right. Like, I think Avatar just got edited for Disney Plus and, like, yeah, stuff like that.

So you never, like, you want the physical thing so you know it's the movie you just saw. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There's something more valuable to owning something you can physically either hold or, like, do something with. You never know what's going to happen to the digital whatever or, like, you know, when they find a problem in the movie like the Game of Thrones coffee cup is now going to be edited anytime you see it but if you own the original you'd always have yeah you know it's an interesting one is I just saw the original Matrix at the new Bev and it was it's that's like one of the movies

that I always put to is like got me into filmmaking but um it was interesting to see because you know the the like grade on that film is always so contentious like what's the real one? Right. Because like after the second ones came out, they went back and made it greener and all the shit. So it was really interesting to have recently just watched them all because of the fourth one came out and then go and see an actual 35 millimeter

print of it from 99 and go like, oh, okay, that's what that's what it was. Yeah, yeah. Same for like, you know, all the Star Wars people that prefer the original release and the new ones that come out are just, they say don't even bother. so yeah were you a big Star Wars person at all or like not necessarily Star Wars but just like those kind of

liked it but I love it thanks to Grogu that's my yeah yeah I think we all do I mean man yeah like you know I was watching Boba fat and then when it turned into a continuation mandolin it was like

you know it's great I love that yeah I actually have a weird flex Two of my friends work at Legacy Effects. That is, yeah. My buddy Carrie made Grogu's ears. Oh, that's so cute. Right.

Yeah. The best part. Yeah. That is. So if you'd say that you met Grogu, though, that would be, I would just, I would leave. I can't see that. And alt, all that for. I heard you went to full sale.

that was at one of those schools that I think a lot of people back in like the early 2000s really considered when trying to get into a creative field. How is that, how is that experience? I guess you can't compare it to like a quote unquote normal college, but how was that experience for you? Because I did hear you say that you ran into the issue where looking back on it, you left some opportunities on the table. And I feel the same way going to like a traditional college.

I feel like just college in general and being. that age, it's somehow, you know, not in effect that you need to take it. Some people are good at it, but I just feel like I really started taking advantage of opportunities and stuff, you know, that I had access to after college and realizing the real world's here, like, do something, right? But college was more like fun, but I also think that's where I found being like the DP was the route I wanted to take because before that I never knew

like what in the world that position was or that it existed you know I kind of thought the director did all of that you know right but yeah it just seemed like a super cool position just to be over the entire look of the film

which is like one of the reasons why we like certain movies is the way it made us feel the way it looked you know I was like that person's cool I might do that and you know now here we are um I feel like there was great opportunities there was cool equipment there that you could kind of run out and make your own stuff there was a lot of knowledge like lighting that I could have took more advantage of that I feel like coming out here that wasn't my strongest thing

But I think as a deepy, it kind of needs to be, you know, your strongest trait. But, yeah, if I would have took more advantage of that, I could have came out here at a more elevated level. But I like to think things happen for a reason. Eventually, I found all this knowledge that I have currently, but it could have been sooner if I would have been smarter, you know. Yeah. But that comes with age I hear. yeah yeah the the the the reason i ask is because like for a lot of people who went to film school whatever that question always comes up you know is it worth it and and the answer always is like

it is well i think you know with anything in life it's what you make of it so it can be worth it if you're willing to put that in but also there is a good benefit of just going straight into movies instead of learning theories or what proper equipment name is or how to make proper knots, you know, it's great, but you can literally learn that on set too if you're allowing yourself to do it. But then, you know, sometimes we all have bigger ambitions, especially at a younger age when you don't know exactly things don't work like that. You know, you want to go to set and you want to not star as a PA, you want to

be an operator, well, that might be where school might would come in handy instead of being like, hey, new on set first time. You can maybe fake it a little bit with film school having some knowledge. But yeah, I think there's heavy

benefits as to just going straight to set instead of going to school first. But same, going straight from school to set you know it's uh well and we've always said that kind of uh it's it's you know you can learn especially with like the internet now and and whatnot there are certain like hard skills you can learn you know because i always say like you can learn how to how to fix a head gasket on

YouTube it's not so great to learn like creativity on YouTube it's not you don't want to learn from other amateurs on how to be a professional there's a lot yeah I mean technically you can also learn that by watching movies and like why certain shots are shot like a close-up or like, you know, why a focal would be chosen as to be like more wide but still close. Yeah, you can do that too. I don't think you can learn. At that point, you're still learning someone else's creative choices. Just by doing is the only way you're going to kind of learn your creative choices, you know.

Yeah, did you, uh, did you kind of leave school with like a, maybe not a built in network, but any friends coming out of there? Did that kind of just be like, and that's that and then move, move on to it. It was, yeah, yeah, felt like that. I mean, that's not go, go on whatever you want to do, you know? See, yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. The thing with that one is that it's in Florida.

So, you know, if you stay there, I think more connections would be there. But, uh, no, the dream is to live in Los Angeles. So about two weeks after we moved here, the benefit that we did have was some distant family down in Orange County that we were able to live with and then find a place and not just, you know, pick out a random area and see what it was like, you know, we were able to explore or able to take on jobs because even coming, you know, to say Burbank from Orange County is still a lot closer than coming from the East Coast to Orange County, I mean to Los Angeles. So, yeah, that was a benefit. But no, just kind of came out, knew my sister. Yeah, I would just go to, like, random places like Panavision and see what was up. Meet a few people. Eventually, you start learning about networking events like Senegere and AB.

You meet people there. And, yeah, so just came out here. Didn't know anybody. but I guess that's all right because that's kind of the I find that area interesting for a lot of people's the beginning of their career because every you know everyone has some weird way that they actually started getting on set it's it's very rarely just like I met a director in college like you get your Ryan Johnson Steve Yedlin combos where it's like we've known each other since we were 12 you know that's very rare but so you're saying

that you kind of like met that that first day on set came through actual like events like that or was there kind of a different connection oh it was probably no way more sketchy like crimes list or something oh okay yeah yeah i think just came out and trusted the world really like all right free but food great credit could use that um hmm i don't know it's nice to work for like low or free because when you don't know what you're doing the people kind of you you know you don't have to feel like you know they get what they pay for I guess uh which is nothing but you know yeah those are also the the moments to really shine and I also like one of the times you might have the most passion to really be good is those um so yeah you would go on a sketchy set and there's generally

someone you know that doesn't belong there that does bigger stuff and then you can meet them and it will lead to something better uh unfortunately yeah if you come out somewhere with no connection at all you just got to go for it really um yeah because that's it's a it's a tough one but you're you're 100% right like every set always has someone who's yeah yeah like you're good What are you doing here? Remember me for the next one. Yeah. Did,

talking about Seneguard and stuff, are you like kind of a gearhead or did you kind of? Oh, yeah, yeah. I love equipment. Big nerd, especially lenses are great.

But lighting as well. Like if I were to invest in something right now, I would buy some lights, but I have no room for that. But it would be good lighting. Yeah. But lights are all. also like I could see investing in like a quasar set or like the astera tubes just because

fucking everybody uses the astere tubes and you can park them at a rental house and yeah but yeah like buying like a sky panel or something would just be like why why it's like hundred bucks to rent right but it just just be nice to you know those one times when you're like ah wish it but it's not in the budget but if I had it I'd bring it you know yeah you could also to you know like to room with it when it wasn't working so true yeah using a mire though $100 go docs diffusion I invested in a lot of diffusion for some reason I bought like rolls of diffusion in gel thinking it was really going to matter and then LEDs became very popular very quickly yeah well the diffusion's so good you know it's very helpful yeah but yeah

diffusion's a good back pocket you know tool as well as just a white bed sheet. I bring that everywhere and it gives you a nice soft light, you know, a cheap muslin or something, but it works, you know? It's nice soft light versus your heart. But yeah. Did you, so did your sort of like Lenslove come from knowing friend of the pod, J. Holman? You're the only person I've met who knows someone else who I interviewed. So, Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the love for lenses has to be elevated because I read this book that's coming out sooner rather than later, like really soon. I'm the first human to complete that besides the authors. You know, so yeah, after, I mean, you know, that definitely started a, he like introduced me to a good selection when it's like K-35. FDs that started like a real love affair with vintage lenses. And then, yeah, it's like, I think there was always part of me because people, well,

they always want to judge and say whatever, you did the opposite, right? So when I bought like a camera and they were like, oh, you should have bought lenses. They were like going to be longevity, whatever. I was like, great, but like the point of investing in equipment was so that I could bring it on set. And if I invested in a set of lenses, all my stuff's going to look the same, you know, because it's all about the lens that brings more of a separate look than the camera. So that was a million years ago. So I always feel like lenses came over camera when it came to, you know, what I preferred when I dropped a lot of money. on equipment it was because I'm not an AC and I didn't know how to go the route to DP besides

jumping to it and then how are you like a kid and say hire me you know at least with the camera it's like well I come with this and they're like I guess you know and then when you get a second call it's generally not because of the equipment you know what you did But yeah, if you want to make money with equipment, lenses might be the better option. But yeah, that was always my thing, was why would I want that when if I had a whole set of cook lenses, they're all going to look like that, you know? Or if I had all the FDs, they're all going to look like that. And then when I shoot cars and I want to get that detail, you know, it's not going to be as sharp unless I closed down. right right because that is a question that I think a lot of people coming up tend to have is like

will owning classically the red get you jobs and I think maybe reds when it first came out maybe but it does seem like you get a red and you're just like literally the first person who has a hundred dollar music video you're their first call well I also especially with their two new like camera system having just the commodo and the raptors offer everybody and their mom kind of owns the Comodo, you know? But I'm also really jealous of that option

because you can literally own this really nice piece of equipment for fairly affordable price, you know? Yeah, the Raptor does look sick. Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, that one's yeah, about 20 or so. But to have a full-frame

sensor capable of all that is at that price, Yes, I'm highly jealous of these options, you know. I'm not sure now if it's like a requirement or like if it's beneficial. In my case, it was beneficial to own something because I didn't have the work or the network or anything to say, please hire me. because you know why should we are why why why at least with that it was like well you know do you you want an airy camera right i got that cool great okay oh you okay great yeah yeah it worked um yeah that was the point and it mostly worked yeah yeah i think my only regret would

probably be not getting the many because that thing would have but you would be paying that off until you're 50. Yeah. Yeah, it would just, you rent it all the time, which maybe that's why the universe pointed to the Ameri. It's like, because you'll have it whenever you need it. I've always thought, I've always thought the Amira was the better option. Maybe not the one that people use a lot, but it's the better option by far.

Favorite bill, but we still don't pay bills or pay camera off. I feel like the many would have done a better job of just doing that, like within two years probably. Maybe better. But yeah. That wasn't the point of it. It is funny because there's those like foot in the door things that I think the Amir probably wasn't better. Like even would you still pick that one up today if given the option or do you think

a different body would? I don't know. I'm like trying to do like a car shoot for fun because that's what we all do for fun. And I'm like, oh, I wish I had a mini. Because otherwise I got to get another camera. mine's so big and I want to put like a zoom lens because it's a car shoot so like you like if it had a prime on it I could throw it on a run into with no power besides the straight power you know we would be pretty set but no yeah and then just yeah so you know I I yeah there's still

time I'm like ah hmm wish I had a many but yeah I mean that's kind of why I got this C500 because it's like a mini, but it's still got all the kind of Amira features, let's say. That's true. XLRs and internal NDs and all that kind of thing. And it's very small and user-friendly. But pretty much no one hires, no one hires that camera. It's only good for, because I color my own stuff and like can really use that raw light and like really dig into the image and make it look really nice. So it looks good on my real. Yeah. And the clients are always happy but yeah that was that was the good thing about the airy name is that people do hire with that my favorite thing is like oh yeah you have the Alexa right like yeah and they're

like cool I'm like it's the Amira but I think you meant the area but whatever you know no one it's the same sensor so it doesn't matter um which I also think a lot of people don't understand is that you can use the mirror versus the many unless you're doing anamorphic and you're going to get the same image. Right. Did you, when you were starting out with that package, how are you pricing yourself? Not like specifics, but were you just kind of only saying give me the day rate, I'll just come with the camera. Were you pricing an individual? Yeah. Or, you know, I would see like an offer. And I would be like, all right, well, you know, you. You know, I would be like, all right, well, you know, I'm sure this is overkill, but I do have an area that I can bring along, too,

and I feel like some of that got me the job. So, yeah, I still have a hard time when people are like, what's your rate? You know, I would just rather you tell me what's in the budget, because if it's worth it, and then I'd rather do it. I hate missing out on opportunities because someone thinks I'm too expensive because I'm not, you know, putting that out there. Yeah, yeah, I would much rather just hear like, what do you have and let's work something out, you know? Yeah, I've definitely, because I right now primarily do a lot of like corporate work and stuff because that's just after the past two years, that's, I mean, that's a nice day.

Generally, it's almost a 9 to 5 and you go home and oh my God, that's the great thing. They do not want to be around after 5. Yeah, no, they got a real life to go home to, you know. Yeah. So it can be stressful because it's like a shorter day, but at the same time, their expectations are so low that like you can do like a really good but simple job. Not simplistic, but just like a nice, you know, and it's one of those few things are like a pretty frame generally works. I know. You can do some nice light shaping and you're almost, you got one set up and you're done for the day and you don't have to like overthink that one like shot that you did out of 20 that just wasn't.

up to par but the rest were you know like you don't want to do that on those corporation days but yeah i love that and and sometimes those are the nicest pay like you just show up and go home well that was not so fulfilling but it is no yeah yeah yeah pays the rent but yeah doesn't make me feel great those are those days where i mean it doesn't make me feel bad but uh but what i was going to say was they always go like what's your rate and recently i've i've having done a handful of them in a row i've found that I just pick it pick a number that I'm like extremely comfortable with we're going out for yes oh no like I'll I'll give them like a full deep like because if I go I'm the DP the director I'm bringing on my own gear and I'm editing this I will charge them for all of that right well you

have to make it worth it because you're not getting anything else out of it you're not getting like that feeling or creative pleasure it's like well I really don't want to do this but if they agree to the surprise I guess I'll do it and they do you know. Well, they usually do. But I have, but to your point, I was going to say that I've found that a lot of times, even if they're like, that's way out of budget, they usually don't end the conversation there and go like, sorry, we got to move on. I'll usually just add a little tag. Like, if we need to work something out, we can. Well, you also know when they circle back, they might have reached out to other people and they got similar price points. And they're like, oh, well, we just were expecting a lower price. But you know what? I guess. this is good you know yeah that that uh being being incredibly personable in emails is a is a skill i definitely had to learn oh well that sounds like a nice skill to teach everybody i wish i could i'm listening am i not being personal now no my knee jerk reaction is always like hey idiot this is you know like it's i have like a short temper with not short temper but like i can be

very uh you know people asking you to do yeah well yeah people asking you questions about stuff they don't they should have like looked up or like have an opinion on or anything like that but i guess you're the problem solver for like those corporate gigs where they're just like we don't know what you do it's a black box of magic that's true that's true i think that's why you know when they start asking around for others they'll either see that the price was the same or or start realizing what they actually are paying for you know I did want to know how did you get linked up with Holbin because that's you're kind of in this cool well it's it's very it's very cool that like you got involved with the ASC kind of so early in your career compared to a lot of people I was always there you know before Jaya anytime I had an open house or event I was like gotcha or still am like the annoying person like they're probably like would you please stop coming here um but But, yes, I always found myself there.

And once things open back up, you know, there are plenty of events that can get anyone else there too, you know. But Jay specifically, going back to events like Senegger and NAB, we initially met at a Zeiss launch party for the CP3s. one of my Zeiss people's like, hey, you should meet this person. I'm like, hey, person, you know. And then we kept running into each other at NAV, which then led to he needed someone to sit in for like a light test for a class he was teaching. I was like, all right, great. And we did that. And then that led to a music video that we did the next month. And then that led to if he, that we did the next month and all of that led to the friendship that we have now like aside from my twin sister that's my best friend so yeah i always find it strange if anybody thinks that he's like this cool like big person i'm like that's just j you know right well the reason

i asked is just because the uh again like the the the networking getting involved of the i thought maybe you met him through the asc but um i did not no that was like that was a actually thanks to Zyzex so i'm sure we would to have somewhere maybe on the ASC but i don't know yeah it was just that initial you should meet this person from my Zyzex rep um were you going to like the like sort of ASC masterclasses or just those kind of like open houses that they used to oh yeah just like the open houses or um you know they have the photo galleries or uh like Red had an event for the Heliums, I think, there. A lot of things used to happen, but, I mean, clearly they don't right now because everything.

COVID-wise, yeah, somehow I get invited to the award show for the past three years. Probably not this year. But, yeah, I would just, yeah, you try to be there. But don't want to over-state it. now I do. Yeah. Enjoy. The last time I was there was for filming some interviews of some of the members or this project that's releasing soon. Yeah. What's the value in going to those besides obviously the knowledge and sort of meeting people? Like how did those events come about? Or not come about but you know like if someone wanted to go to one of those someone starts

yeah yeah sure we have a moment um i think you know when you get out it's like what do you want to do what do you want out of meeting people do you want work do you want a colleague do you want a friend um going to the asc is one of a fun event And it gets you in within that club that we all, like, idolize and want to be part of. But it doesn't get you work because what you're doing is meeting your colleagues. You're meeting people going after the same goal who, unless, you know, we all have like, oh, I'm not available. Let me send us for some work does come out of that. One of the things I need to do better is meet directors or meet producers.

Those are the people who are hiring what I want as work. So I need to be better about going to like film festivals and events where not just DPs and camera people show up. That would also more so be something less motivated by cameras like Senegere and NAB, although NAB has a lot to offer. But yeah, yeah, I would say something that you're going to get out of going to places like the NACC, is like connections in within that department you'll find friends you can you know talk to or like be depressed with when you're not working or you can find people who will recommend you when they're not available but if you're looking for more like people who are generally going to hire you it's better to go to say a film festival or like a release party for a film and meet

other filmmakers within other departments, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, you just got to figure out what you want. I think the biggest thing is networking at any film, you know, revolving event you're going to network with anything. I think also a good thing if you do want to hang out specifically at the ASC is looking for like mentor kind of people because that goes a long way. Clearly, you can't just be like, hey, looking.

Bring me on. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so hard to come by. But if you even just had someone that would answer one question via email, you know, that's still an up. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I will say every, I think every single ASC member I've interviewed has been like at the end of it been like, all right, well, here's my email. Like, here's my phone number.

Call me if you have any questions. you know just that right i well if i had more stuff going on right now my questions would be like so what's your favorite sandwich like i got nothing you know nothing going on but sometimes them questions are more like easy to answer but they're all incredibly nice um right but i'll say the same for anyone i've ever met yeah uh i the kind of meeting directors and producers thing kind of does pull me around too i know you you were saying that you were saying that you were editing together like a new reel. Oh, right.

And I was wondering what your kind of take was on the importance of a reel or what its service is, you know, are you finding you get a lot of jobs from that reel or is it more just kind of like a look at me, I know what I'm doing kind of thing versus, you know. I mean, it has to be a little bit of both when you are still kind of on like a smaller level. I feel like a reel is important just so it's hard to. send like a lot of selection of work and be like watch this 20 minute episode if you like this and then watch another the whole feature catch it on amazon like it's hard to get someone's attention span for that long and i think with the real you have the ability to put the best

shots together that you want people to see uh within less than two minutes and they get a feel for all your what you know you can do the whole spectrum so I feel like yeah you get to a certain point or you no longer need a real I am not there um and then you can be like I shot this Netflix thing here's my Disney plus series you know you can be like that and people are like great or you you know you get an agent and it sent your workout and you're like yeah you here's your 10% please thank you you did all the hard work love you know You get to do that, but yeah, when you're smaller, a rule is kind of important. And I think you can actually have fun.

You can put some personality into it. And again, you have the ability to put your favorite shots, your best shots that will really sell your work. It's fun and it's frustrating at the same time. It's taken me four years since my last one. I came out with a new version of it, but I sent it to two editors who didn't like the song choice. And now I'm looking back, I didn't either. So I started over again. And I think I finally, we're almost there.

It's a February goal. Like I wrote it down, like come out with a new reel. And once you put it on paper, it's all official. So it's coming out by the end of the month. Excellent. Yeah. Was the music more? Because that was when I just re-edited mine, the music choice is so important.

And I would have been using a song by Q-tip for like four years. And someone was like, you need to not have like copyrighted music. Yeah, mine was a little unorthodox. So it was different. And I don't think it's quite, it's more like what you don't expect, which isn't a bad thing. But it can be, you know, if you're like, if it takes you by. surprised. I'm not, I wasn't expecting that. I don't know about that one, but I, you know, like, I don't want that. So I need, I needed a more, like, typical, like, inspiring song and so, like, it was more like a down, but it had a great message of, like, a new day and, like, waiting on the sun, which is perfect, because that's our job. But since the, the editors didn't like, I was like, yeah, I don't want it to mess with it. it at all so yeah the uh the sort of the the formality or I guess the it's interesting

like like you have to make a reel a certain way like you can't like you were saying like it's fun to inject your personality but I feel like if you do it too much then people like this guy doesn't know right like what wheels are for or how to do it if you start putting in too much dialogue it's like aren't you like the visuals like we don't care about but I don't know I don't I don't know. I was also trying to put in more scene-like work. And I think that's, like, vital because, like, we tell stories within the way we shoot it. But, yeah, I've limited some of the dialogue, so there's still a little bit. But not as much. It's more traditional, like, so.

Yeah. Well, it's, you know, speaking of, you know, the, the mirror and a reel or whatever, in like this kind of foot in the door thing like that because as you said like you you may have get hired for your camera package but you won't get hired the second time um you may have I'm sure this is might be mildly annoying to talk about but uh I think you have the second most followers of any DP on Instagram it goes like Roger Deacons and then you oh no way yeah no they're still like Greg Frazier or Reed Morano oh maybe but yeah when I was I was trying to find because I was like maybe and it's like you're certainly in the top five yeah no no no there's way more and i'm wondering a kind of like how did you finagle that but b uh how has it helped you and in

maybe in any way how is it kind of hurt you um i think like i really to never want to be seen as an influencer and like with a certain following sometimes you can get that title so yeah i don't want that I've really stayed away from accepting brand endorsements because that really feels influencery unless I really like it. And I would give on free promotion anyway. So you might as well send me your stuff, right? But just taking something and they want a post from it. I'm like, I don't, I don't want to be an influencer. I really don't. I think it's good to have a following because people will, like, throw some legitness to that. Like, oh, people like this for some, we might as well, too.

Or, yeah, I don't know. I think it's got to be more beneficial than it is, like, harmful. But, yeah, clearly you don't need that. I don't really know much benefits besides, yeah, if I send it over, it does look pretty, pretty professional, I guess, unless you atone, or like if you like affiliate followers with like influencers or something else, like, oh, you only have a following because you're like not that ugly, you know, or like, oh, you only have a following because you're like a minority or whatever. Like, okay, great, you know. There's always

that um which is there's probably the truth to that but you do want to like um i don't know i enjoy seeing like reed marina or like rachel morrison behind a camera to be like oh well you know i look like them i i can do it too um sure so i do like contributing to that like hey you know it's okay if you look 12 you're five foot that's mean um you can do all of this too so yeah I enjoy that part of, like, when someone's like, hey, I did this because I saw you set this. I'm like, that's kind of cool. You know, like, huh, people listen. Yeah.

Yeah. The only reason I ask is because me and my tattoo artist were talking about it, how she was saying that it's frustrating because she needs that for her job, but she's very much not, like, technologically inclined or anything like that. doesn't know how to use the system but for some reason uh and i mean like the system like the algorithm right not yeah yeah he's fucking instagram but um just that idea of like there there is an intangible legitimacy to having 54 000 followers that doesn't have anything to do with your career and only excites people who have no interest in uh or it shouldn't say no interest but it excites people who it it doesn't matter it doesn't matter if if people like but they like it as a selling point you know it's but again it's that thought of that like foot in the

door that's i mean i think it's a weird facade because it's new like i can't go back and um look up how conran hall dealt with it you know right right have an instagram account um but social media in general is still pretty new. But I think like everything else, make of it what you can. It's another tool, another way of networking, no matter how many followers, but unfortunately there is some, like,

legitimate on whatever, how many, whatever followers you have. Yeah, I think it is beneficial, but it also opens the door to certain, titles of influencer or certain hate, I guess, which is strange, but people like questioning if you really know what you're talking about or wanting to, you know, I don't know. I think there was people like, I remember someone was just like, why, why an area? Like, I have a GH4, which is just good. Like, people that just want to say the complete

opposite just because they're looking for an argument or want to like dethrone like just throw it like yeah catch you saying something stupid which is another new thing so yeah in the world of like being canceled it's like almost not worth living for because anything you do and say can be said in any way you don't mean it um yeah but at this with this job and with this that amount followers it's not that hard you know it's not like a million or it's not like yeah everyone's just watching you to do i think generally it's nice to know that people out there are supportive and um yeah i enjoy it is a it is a weird thing that like like you said like it's new yes and so i and so like what do like does it matter like is it going to be here in five years

like what if facebook goes down you know like as a company you know and it can't kills Instagram. Like, then what? Does it make, does all that stuff matter still? Hard. Yeah, because like with Instagram stories, you get more, uh, I feel like, like feedback and people reacting versus now posting on what the people call the grid with all that. But like, if you start stalking someone, you look at the grid and then it's like, but I want to post a story because someone's going to respond to it. And it's like, but then when this person yeah there's like so much useless thinking it goes into a simple post that takes away from some of the real life I feel like well for for me it's like I've always loved

sharing photos like that's duh you know I had a flicker back in the day when that was people students in that but back in the day but now I'm thinking about that like at the start of the new year I was like, all right, if I want people who are looking for a DP to take me more seriously, do I only post, like, really well-composed frames and, like, me and my friends hanging out goes out the window or do, like, what's my voice behind this stupid box or whatever, you know? I don't, I've, um, I feel like, from my take that your page should show some personality. It should show some work and it should show some gear. and have a nice balance between all of that.

Because if I'm going to stock like an AC that I might want to hire and I just see nice frames, you don't get a fill for who this person is, or if you guys are going to have a nice, like, vibe or, like, what they enjoy other than cameras, yeah, I want to see more than that. So you can start looking in tag, and then you're just going full stop remote. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I think we have to. two in the morning when you accidentally like something scanning through.

You're like, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And then do you unlike or do you just sleep with her? I unlike. I filmed, yeah, the hashtag. I don't know. It came up, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, I was just scanning through other shit. I didn't know you only posted that four years ago. I don't know why it came up on my feet. You know, like the discovery. They must have the universe. You never know the algorithm. Yeah. Yeah.

That's true. um i don't know i feel like we put way too much thinking into something that should like be simple but if we are putting this much thinking i mean i guess clearly it has became a tool so yeah well and it's just weird to hear like it is weird to hear like older kind of like you know blockbuster shooting dps talk about like yeah i guess i have to have an instagram now and it's like did it did your agent tell you that like damn yeah i wonder who put these like requirements out um you were talking earlier about um getting an agent i did has is that come up on your radar yet because that's certainly something i've thought about and friends of mine

have thought like do we need that is that helpful at all or yeah i think we do need that to get some of the better jobs and to do some of the negotiating that we're not very good at um I would love an agent and I think it's within a few years to get maybe the right one. I'm trying to figure out how to sell myself what I can offer them because most of the agents that you want already have the talent and a lot of it to like break between all these jobs. So it's like what can I offer? I think I did one time have like a bigger agent. agent reach out um because of my car work uh and they don't represent any female car shooters which you you know i don't get why you need to be female you know whatever oh that was like something

in the email that they said like yeah so yeah it's great it was a female agent by the way um so i don't you know i mean use what you have that i feel like um After a narrative reel, I am specifically coming out with a car rail, and I feel like that'll be more, that could be my, in, like, what I could offer. While I don't believe you need to be a certain gender or whatever to shoot certain things, if someone's looking to check off a box, I guess, whatever, I do want to eventually be in a place where we are just hired for talent, regardless of what you are. you know what you have um yeah the parts yeah yeah but in such a creative and competitive world you got to find something right yeah i've said that for like years like when people get jealous you know you're thinking about the GH4 person who's probably a guy let's be honest um but just that person who's like we've talked about that a lot in this podcast actually

recently i don't know if the episodes have come out when this comes out i don't know there They're all jumbled up now, but the idea of people who will get incredibly educated on a subject or are able to get 90% of the way they're image-wise, because most cameras are excellent at this point, from like an imaging perspective, and get mad when other people are either, like you said, using quote-unquote better gear or doing jobs that are higher than that person's station because they believe that all that knowledge made them, makes them just as good not realizing that that shitty attitude they hit you with is what's keeping them from the job that's true i mean also going back to social media i think uh you know you can

be whatever you want on there and only post what you want which is generally our highs uh it's also like a bit mentally like bad because you start seeing your competition or other people work and you're like why am I not working or like what what did they do to get this like I don't know and then generally you find out like oh I just posted that so people think I'm busy and you're like hmm so like I was mentally down because this person is trying to pretend to be busy and you're like wow I mean it's great for a lot but it's also bad I try my best to post some of the more like real experiences and so just everything's great so good living in life i'm killing it i hope you guys aren't yeah there's awful days yes

yeah um i did have a question is apropos of almost nothing um i remember hearing you uh say that you you had kind of struggled with artificial light favoring um natural light kind of early on and i was wondering what were some of those things that helped you uh sort of bridge that gap And what are some of those, like, lighting ahas that you had that kind of made you go, like, oh, this is what makes it actually look like the movies I'm looking at and not, you know, was it just like discovering good ratios or like, what, how did that come about for you? Well, we can't share the magic. Yeah, I think doing a lot of things naturally, you start to, you should start looking into, like,

what, why do you like that? um why is like instead of shooting directly into the sun and putting your talent like behind it why is that better and you start figuring out well it shapes the person better you know front is hard and ugly and flat so take your artificial lamp as if it was the sun and then place it you know where it was and start finding these um natural you know good light and recreating it based on it um and then and then you know you start realizing what shapes the base like what makes good lighting um what gives dimension and then you can start doing that with with lamps and then you can further do that by diffusing that light and or blacking it out so it only hits a certain face and not

on the wall. That's fun, I think, experimenting with it. And you do not need a sky panel or the big tools to start doing that. You can take a lamp from Home Depot, which is hideous. But if you take a bed sheet from Target, aim the lamp at it, you get a nice soft. off-source. And then it looks, it doesn't look like a cheap lamp, you know, it starts looking more expensive. And it starts doing that. And once you kind of finesse working with faces, try a car because that takes a whole different set of skills to light. And it starts becoming more about something reflecting off versus just throwing it right out of it. Yeah, I don't know.

I think learning light is the key to better visuals, really. For me, it was helpful to have someone, you know, that used to gaff that would teach me more of this stuff. and then doing like I enjoy like all the lower budget stuff because you get to be more hands on with the gear and if you skip the ladder like I did but you have to gaff for yourself you're kind of going back and learning and then also you can appreciate when you get a real crew because you don't have to do what they're doing but you know what it takes you know yeah if I could do G&E work and be taken seriously. I would really enjoy that. But I just know I would show up and then be like, okay, can you really like do that? Can you lift that? Probably not.

One hand. You're just like, yep. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to work on that just to show up and do it. Just get the lats, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly, yeah, I think if you find a natural eye with a natural light,

you know what you want it's just a matter of how to get it once you have to create that environment yourself yeah i i did want to touch on uh the car stuff because growing up i was an enormous fan of top gear um oh nice and i and i always wanted to make because their car cinematography is just insane right they're like historically not for the elite but yeah yeah Yeah. And that always inspired me. What kind of, A, I never actually parsed out what sort of got you into car cinematography, but also like kind of what excites you about it and what, you know, what are those kind of maybe loads of lighting things you learned about, as they say, model and hard body objects. Well, I got into it by it was just a job that paid and that was regular. So I was operating under. this DP for a special like car built series um with Nelson racing engines up in Chatsworth and I would go there and operate and kind of learn under the original DP and um yeah it

going to a car shop like a nine to five day it wasn't that fun but when that DP moved um to another country and they needed some shots So I guess that was the call because, you know, I was working underneath it. I was thrown into it as the cinematographer now, and that's when I found a passion. So it was just a job operating it, didn't know it. But when you have to light the certain stuff and you get excited when you bring out like this really, you know, black part of the engine that had no detail before, but when you shine like what light at it and you can start seeing it, like that's exciting. that's like a passion that's you know what makes it fun is I guess the lighting I really enjoyed the first thing I shot that was exciting was a big motor worthy of 2,200 horsepower and yeah

able to make it pop make it look good and all of this beauty stuff is shot within the car shop So I was just bringing that on It took on a lot And it was hard And it was again a passion Because you were given So much to do with so little crew But I was just enjoying it

I was offing a jib While hopping a ron at the same time You know Oh Jesus But yeah I'm currently transcoding all of that red raw To pro res

So I can finally come out with a red rule I mean, with a car rail, not red reel. Some of it was on airy, so not red row. We'll cut that out. Yeah. But so I could come out with a car reel. But I look back on it and I'm like, this stuff is like exciting. It's cool.

My favorite car I've got a shot. I'm not sure I'll ever top it is the one that engine was for with a 2200 horsepower. It's the name is Maximus. It was in Furious 7 when, you know, the famous Paul Walker, Ben Diesel scene. That's what Van Diesel's driving. So it's like a Camaro type looking thing? No, it's a charger. Oh, okay, okay.

Yeah, big, huge body. And it's expanded, so it's the ultra charger. It's, like, huge. Yeah. Because his car always has the engine. block like sticking out of the top of it doesn't yeah well I know this one didn't uh but I think in the movie and I don't watch these it was his dad's car gosh yeah I think I've seen the first too I don't yeah I saw the fourth one which I thought was the first because they almost have the same

title but it was on yeah engine builder also has a car on the fourth one so when that came out I know it was the fourth like oh okay great yeah um so that I don't know maybe I hope to shoot a cooler car than that, but it's pretty high up there. At the same, you know, I just shot that on Monster, so it was like full frame in your face, you know? Right. So I'm excited to cut a car reel. The only thing holding me back is all this 8K raw footage. Yeah, just waiting for a laptop to show through it.

I don't know. That show had like legit editors doing it so they didn't need like proxies or anything. And now I'm like, well, I wish I did. but I never I don't know what I thought I clearly knew enough to like get the footage but is there a like a what are what are some of the main difference main differences between lighting a face versus an engine block or like a you know maybe a wide of a car well I left comparing it to like Greg Fraser talking about lighting the Mandalorian where it becomes more about what's out of frame because oh in the helmet yeah

It's like lighting that because it reflects what you see, you know, if you shine a light right at it, it looked shiny and nasty. And you're like, but it's lit. Why is it? No, like you're supposed to, you know, instead of shining a light right out of, take it like soft light, take a white piece of whatever you have and aim a light through it so that the engine can reflect it instead of just. it can't really like absorb it so it just shines off and it's so nasty looking you know it just becomes more about what's off of frame uh because you are going to see that light even though you know with a face you don't see the fixture but with a car you or an engine or any kind of sheet metal you see it you don't know you're seeing it but you are um so what you throw off-camera becomes part of the image, which is interesting. Yeah, so how do you... Yeah, we had a built-in, like, top light that is still there, you know, nicely made.

I think it was, like, 20-foot long to, I don't, or longer than, I don't know. But it was huge that the original DP built, and I helped. But, yeah, so I was... learning what he did and that was a huge help to um learn a lot of the stuff um we had that um if i had like a bigger shoe i could rent some sky panels that you know could either skip over the engine nice or you could throw below give a little shape um aim at just white board or white cheat you know it's all fascinating you can really get creative with some of it um i remember having the oh yeah okay i was shooting uh the max mischarger which is bare metal and i were shooting it in

the car shop and you know when i put it on the camera you could see the entire car shop because it reflects what you see like that thing as a mirror like you just see it um luckily all my camera equipment was black because i'm dumb enough and buy pink stuff so luckily the stuff i was using was black so even though maybe you would see like this triangle thing it's not too like out of ordinary but when i saw the entire car shop i was like oh man luckily um they planned to build another top light for the other side of the car shop. So it was just as long. I was able to take the diffusion they were going to use and just put it all over the side of the car. So it reflected white now and it looked clean. Oh, like on the floor? Not on the floor, but like pretty much

covering the view the car had of the car shop. Oh, I see. I see. So it's laid up. So laid up. but yeah all the tools the windows and everything in the car shop it now saw white luckily uh and it looked clean um and it looked like how the car was supposed to versus like i mean it's cool because it is bare metal so like clearly what you see is what you're like reflecting but yeah i don't know i'm still excited for that one so probably the real opener be that that charger. That'd be cool. Yeah, I'm, I'm fascinated by Carson, I'm sorry. I haven't done any, but you should, do you want some? I can put you in. Yes. Yeah. All right. All right. Please because I, I, like I said, I was a big fan of Top Gear growing up so that, like, that's one thing,

but I always feel like, when you see car commercials, like on the Super Bowl and stuff, half of me is like, that looks dope. Well, except for when they do the VFX, you know, like just the digital car that they always chuck and everything. But like, um, the Blackbird. Uh, But it always just looks like a fun. I don't want to say easy because it's clearly not easy, but like a fun challenge that is simple to execute but hard to do. I don't know if that makes me sense. Like it just feels fun.

It feels like a fun challenge and it sounds like it is. Yeah. I mean, the hardest is definitely if you have a silver card or just Chrome or anything because that thing sees the entire thing. I love a nice black engine or card because it hides. some of that. It's challenging for sure. And if you're out doing a car shoot on the road,

you have to rely on the weather and the cinema gods and everything to bring out good stuff. The one time I did a nice moving shot, it was like a nice, diffused, cloudy day, which is great because it looked like the sky was a nice top soft source the entire time. But now I want like some of that hard like sex light coming off of the car. So I'm hoping the next time I go out, we get good weather as the handmaids would say.

Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, like watching like car commercials, I always imagine that the like the camera car has to just sit where there's no reflection where like the headlight is. Like they just have to find that spot and be like, all right, no one can see us drive right here forever. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, if you're given, if it's not the bare metal car, I think you're good. I enjoy a nice and low angle like they did and Ford versus Ferrari because it is like coming down. And you can see the road move with it. So you're getting double the movement, seeing that in the camera.

Right. Yeah. So it's fascinating and fun. I can hook you up with some nice beauty shots if you ever want to try it out, see if it's you thing. Great. Great. Perfect. It's done. We've gone a little over time, which I apologize for, but the way we tend to wrap these up is asking the same two questions, which sucks because they kind of stole them from me. The Miami's guys kind of, I'm going to say they stole from me in those two years ago. But first one, but I'm not going to change the format just because someone else said.

You can't. Yeah. First one is a piece of advice that you were either given or maybe a quote that you read that has stuck with you over the years. I don't know. I remember hearing someone say that Pascal Wexler told them to sit whenever they could. Because we just have such a stressful day and you're almost like punished if you sit down or pick it easy. But I think like to keep your, you know, body well and, you know, we destroy it so much already by putting this object that doesn't belong there for such a long time. If you have the chance to sit, you should do it. I think it's going to give your day a longer time. usefulness of just taking the certain rest that you do need. I think something new about this world

is we are starting to value some of the things that we're once looked down upon on. I don't know why. I mean, I guess like sitting down seems like you're doing nothing. But now we see it's like something good for you, something you're taking care of yourself by giving yourself some rest. And it's not that you're doing nothing. It's you're doing the same thing. I mean, a lot of times will operate and it's a chance to set in like your grip or someone hand in an apple box. Like, no, no, I don't need it. Like, take it, you know, like, be good to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. But the American work ethic is changing. Yes. A really hard piece of advice because I'm not very good at is to like be easy on yourself like mentally for sure um it's easy to second guess and start

thinking worser things when you're not being hired um but that's not true like it's nice reminder that we all have times of not work of like no one calling no one's working at the same you're seeing your friends go off and do things but then you know if you really evaluate would you want to be doing what they're doing maybe they're in a different department maybe they're doing reality um and you're looking on it like oh i'm not working i don't want to work i mean i want to work um but do you really want to do that uh sometimes i don't know it's such a high goal, the ladder is literally higher to do it. So, well, enjoying your off time too, I think is something, going back to that work ethic problem is like enjoying off time is difficult for a lot.

Certainly for me. And then eventually, I think the key that I've learned is not slipping into preferring off time. Because that's easy, right? Yeah. Sometimes it's like you literally can't win. When you work, you don't want to, and when you're not working all you want to do is work. I think to take advantage of off time is the best way to spend your off time. If you're not getting hired, you want more narrative, then you better make a narrative real. You know, if you're not being hired, but you want to shoot a certain style, watch a movie that is in that way and figure out what made it great. you know there is we have like the best homework when it comes to being better literally to study the greats you watch a good movie um there's ways to make use of off time instead of being depressed because that's a certainly popular way to spend it um yeah yeah even worse yeah comparing yourself as to why it someone else working and you're not um so yeah i think it would just be best to like figure out

what you want to do and and find a way to make it more possible you know so i want to shoot features i want to do narrative work um during my last you know days of off time i finally coming out with a new real so i like to think that will attribute to like getting the kind of work that i want you know yeah We'll time the release of this with your reel, so it all... Well, we know it will be at the end of the month. That's all I know. Let me know. I'll figure it out.

It'll be a third. That sounds great. Yeah. Second question, maybe a little easier, maybe harder. Suggest a movie for people to watch that isn't yours. Okay. I suggest searching for Bobby Fisher. shot by Conrad Hall.

And photographically, that is a brilliant movie. And, you know, it's sad if not many people know about Conrad Hall, but Conrad Hall inspired whoever your favorite DPS, I can guarantee you that. So I want to keep his work so elite and hopefully become other people's favorites. cinematographer too because you know he's literally one of the you know who roger looks up to you know um so if you start seeing deps that inspired your deps then i think you can get more in their head too uh so i would highly suggest that one any of his work really i mean in cold blood is kind of kind of cool but that's going back to the black and white days so it depends on how you know

what year you want to go uh but bobby fisher i believe is on netflix so there you go oh watch yeah and you've seen it right yeah i remember that i remember uh when that came out it it was the same time that um at least in the rental store i went to there was that poster and then there was also, oh shit, I think it was like an Adam Sandler movie or something, but for the longest time as a kid, I confused the Bobby Fisher movie with like a completely different comedy. And I thought I had watched Bobby Fisher, but I watched that comedy. And people kept talking about it like it was a masterpiece. I was like, I don't know. It thought it was okay. Right, right. It's kind of funny. It had to get over. Like, it's about chess. And you're like, wait, what? Oh, yeah. No, it's so nice.

and it's like the way he shoots it's like being told you know by a kid's point of view and uh the lining i mean is clearly great it's it's conrad hall so i feel like that's another suggestion if you do not know who comrade hall is get on that yeah it's if you look up interviews with like a lot of the older older dps that they always refer to Connie and they're always like Yeah, well, I'm not cool enough, or I didn't know him to call him that. But a flex of mine is that my American cinematographer manual is signed by Haskell Wexler. No shit. Yeah.

I mean, that's my favorite thing. It's like, if I get other people to sign it, they're like, this is okay. You know, like it's like a cool conversation starter. It's not your average. I wish you didn't tell me that because now I'm going to bring mine to the next time. You have to. It's like a, it's a yearbook, you know? I never would have thought of that. I'm totally doing that now. Right. No, I have a lot like Roger and Reed and Rachel and Russell Carpenter, you know, a lot of it.

But I was at an event and I won like a million terabyte G drive or something. Not that, but you know. And someone else won this. manual that came pre-signed by some people and I was like I really wanted that and you know this person saw the G drive like you know that's so great and I'm like I will trade you and even though it was probably like worth more like I totally won that you know that is like the coolest thing ever um but yeah Haskell was one of them and yeah you can't put a price on that so I'm so excited yeah whenever I have the winner yeah I just knew what I was trading I guess like who wants a G drive with like a lot of storage I do build your own yeah I've been chucking drives and chucking them in this like synology box for like I have like for less money well I don't want G drive to get mad at me because I still want G drives but you can you can make your own like NAS for pretty cheap relatively cheap. Yeah. Well, the other, I don't know, I did a lot of, I had like a whole

monstrel affair that I just shot everything in 8K and I was like, that space went by so fast, you know. I've since learned proxies are the way to go and maybe just shooting per res in general, especially for a lot of what I do is enough, you know, color range to just play around with. I don't know. I've done like a little bit of effects that comes on handy there, but No, I mean, HQ is pretty much a good enough Kodak to just do whatever you really want to do, especially like real-wise. Do you color your own stuff as a prolog to that question? No, that's why it looks pretty good, you know, if I did it, it would be.

I have two projects in my current reel that are not colored. And I do want to throw it out there that it is worth coloring. and getting professionally colored because I think that can sometimes set apart like an okay visual versus a really well shot, you know? Sometimes it's the color because you can have a light with a bias of yellow and it's like way too yellow and you're trying to do it yourself,

but like these tools that colorists have are just out of this world and it can literally elevate. So if you want to sell more expensive work, it's worth putting in a session with a colorist because, yeah, it can make a difference. A lot of, like, some of the low budget, I shoot with colorists in mind because I don't have the adequate crew to, like, take a certain light off the wall, like, by this much because we don't have this and that. And maybe they don't understand what I'm saying. But I'll shoot with the colorist in mind. I'm like, all right. Well, the face looks good, but later on, I'm going to take that right down, right?

Yeah. And something that would be like maybe a 20-minute fix and post. I mean, on set is only a 20-second fix and post. So once you do start learning the limitations and all the stuff in coloring, you start to learn a whole new tool that you have on set. That was literally my pandemic project was I wouldn't say that I am a colorist because that would be demeaning to real colorists. But like I've colored two features. So any features, indie features.

But like it got to that point over the pandemic where like I had done enough color work on my own stuff that like some random people online noticed and were like, hey, we shot this movie. Do you want to do it? That's pretty cool. But you're right. It's like being able to. Yeah. Now you know all those. stuff too as well.

When I, yeah, when you're talking about like, oh, that I need to flag that off, but I don't have enough time. That's always in my head now. It's like, that's easy to bring down. Or knowing more specifically what you can't fix. A lot of people hate, like, fix it in post. And I agree if the budget's there. But what you're working with, you know, if you know, the easier way is going to be like

taking it down in post and do it, you know. Yeah. Well, especially if you're becoming an 80s friend, yeah, yes. Because, like, giving someone else that job could be annoying. But if you're like, I will do that in post later, it's like, go for it. Oh, yes. But you also have to make sure there's a color session because people will say there is one. There's not, or maybe you're not a part of it.

Like, you got to almost make a contract. Like, when I do this, there is a color session and I am there, you know? Yeah, well, because we've talked about that a lot on this podcast is like the cinematography right now and probably for the rest of forever has one foot squarely imposed and one on set because your image can be I've name drop Steve Yedlin 14,000 times on this podcast, but like he's right. Like you can kind of make as if the data set that you're getting, you know, raw or really a really good compressed codec, if it's good enough, you can do a lot of you can really manipulate the image to in a way. that is not what the DP intended. And if you're not part of that color session, like you're saying, it could be anything at the end of the day. Yes.

Or things that your eye is, like, now tune to that people don't get. Like, if you have two cameras and one's like a stopover, and some people, it doesn't, they don't see that, which is good because the vast majority of the audience probably won't see it. But when you see it, it's like some cringe. It's like, that was the most easy effects, you know? Yeah. Well, even if their brain doesn't notice it their heart will, you know, it'll throw them off. Yeah, something fills off, you know, and you don't want that, even if you can't pinpoint what it is.

Yeah, you don't want it. It can take you out of the story at some point. So, like, going from one camera to the other, it's like, one's overexposed or one's underexposed or whatever. the most frustrating part is when you see stuff that you weren't part of the like how easy that would have been to fix, you know, or just, yeah, I remember we did this music video that required a person that was green screened to be like doll-sized, and if they just would have brought some of the contrast down to match the plate, it would have sold. And it was not a hard fix. but you just need that trained eye or whatever to be there so that it can be pointed out.

I feel like, you know, if I have a director or a producer that doesn't necessarily think colors needed, I will bring them to another session to see how it elevates a project and all the possibilities that you have. I just, you know, every, every project could use it, everything, you know. So it's a must, but just be sure that it's going on before you get in your mind like, I'll fix it later and then be sure that you're a part of it, you know. Otherwise, take the 20 minutes because they're never going to fix it the way you want if you're not there.

Yeah, they're going to have a K1S1 on it and call it a day. Yeah, like that looks great. All right. Y'all, is it lunchtime? Yeah, that's going to be the color stuff, you know? Well, for us, it is lunchtime. So I really appreciate you giving me the extra time. That was a lot of fun chatting.

Well, it's an off day. So, you know, I'm just going to go finish the real and do other checks off the list. But I appreciate you allowing me be here. You have so much heavy hitters that I am like a fish out of the water that's a random person. You know, not true, now you're fish in water. Yes. Well, now I, you know, I have some coolness to me. I'm being like, I was part of that podcast.

I hope and pray you'll be able to say that without irony at some point in the near future. I think so, yes. I appreciate your conversation and being conversational and making it fun and easy. Well, I'm glad to hear that. But like I said, I'll let you go. Thanks again. and yeah, well, stay in touch. That sounds good.

And thank you. Enjoy your Wednesday. Bye. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company.

You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidio Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.