Frame & Reference Podcast - 53: "A Lot of Nothing" DP John Rosario (SXSW Select)

Episode Date: April 29, 2022

On this weeks episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with cinematographer John Rosario about the film "A Lot of Nothing." In this conversation Kenny and John talk about the film, which recently premiered at SXSW, as well as Johns path into the industry and how he went from studying to be a civil engineer to becoming a talented DP. Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with John Rosario, the DP, of A Lot of Nothing, which just premiered at South by Southwest a few weeks ago. John is an amazing man We really had a great conversation this week You know I think Wouldn't it be amazing if one of these weeks I was like And you know the guest ate dog shit And I hated him

I've loved every conversation man This has been so fun And it continues to be Anyway John has a fascinating Sort of story You know Immigrant parents you know, workman-like family, you know, he became an engineer and then went to film school

for two years and then dropped out and then became an incredible DP, has a fantastic eye, and we talk about all of that, and I really think you're going to enjoy it. So all of that and more, as usual. I don't spend these intros summarizing an hour and a half of conversation, I think, it's better if you just listen to it because that's why podcasts exist. So I'm going to let you get to it. Here's my conversation with John Rosario. So the way that we usually start these is by asking how you got started. I understand you didn't really, you didn't start as a cinematat.

You started as an engineer kind of as a younger guy. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, my folks, they're, they emigrated from the Dominican Republic over to, you know, New York. And so I guess I'm, you know, I'm a first generation American. And so with that, they brought some, the, these values with them where, you know, you choose the job that pays really well. That's respectable. And that's kind of it, you know. And so the arts wasn't really nurtured in my household growing up, you know, because my folks were like, you know, blue collar. hardworking people. And so, you know, when it came time to go to college and, you know, I was looking at a list of things like, okay, what's interesting? What pays well? It was the first thing I was asking myself. And I looked at engineering. I was like, okay, engineering sounds respectable. That sounds cool. Civil engineering. Great. Let's just do that. And I went to a community college in New York for civil engineering for one year. And I kind of jumped into film. Like it was just like,

by chance. Like I, I, yeah, it didn't, it didn't happen because it's something that I loved and always wanted to do and just, it was just completely by chance, you know, while attending, you know, school for civil engineering, I met with a friend of mine who is, who's a musician, and we were just having lunch and having a conversation and he pros the question to me, you know, he goes, he goes, hey, do you, do you see yourself happy being an engineer? and like the world like time just stopped and everything froze and my mind kind of just became mush because i never thought to equate happiness with what you do i always thought you know

my parents think the same way it's like you know i always thought you know okay work is work and you make money and then you go home and your fun comes outside of work so happiness and what you do just never never really clicked for me and i and i answered him i said you know i yeah i don't think I would be happy being a civil engineer at all. I'd be miserable, in fact. And he goes, well, what makes you happy? And I go, well, you know, I like watching movies. And I really did as a kid, you know, I'd always like glue myself to TV and just watch all types of movies, like just anything. And I saw that. I was like, you know, I like watching movies. And he goes, well, why don't you go to film school? And I said, yeah, I guess, I guess so. Yeah, I'll do that. I'll go to film school.

And so I went to the film school and, you know, I only lasted two years out of the four. I dropped out after two years. But super valuable time because I was able to really find what it is that was actually wanting to do and pursue cinematography after that. So it was very valuable that I did then. Yeah. It's funny. Again, as I said, I'm going to be jumping around all over the place. But I kind of wanted to know because I had a, I had my parents were like, yeah, do whatever.

the fuck you want. But watching movies was always the same, what I'm trying to get at, same you know, kind of thing. It's loved to watch movies as a kid and that's what got me in a cinematography. But I'm wondering for you, was it always entertainment or did you start to analyze films early on or did you have to learn that muscle? Because I certainly had to learn it. It was completely entertainment as a kid. And I actually wasn't until going to film school that I started to develop that language of dissecting films and feeling films, you know, or explaining the feelings that I was feeling, you know. As a kid, I would feel these feelings, but I wouldn't equate it to anything that people

were doing behind the scenes. So I think it was, you know, once I started going to film school, I started to see, I guess, for a lack of better words. Yeah, because it's that, it's that, did you find that you had trouble trusting those feelings in regards to, you know, it can be like, oh, this is how I, this, I saw this Kurosawa film and this is how I felt and people will be like, no, that's the wrong interpretation. And you go, oh, fuck, okay, cool. My bad. No, you know, it's, it's, well, yeah, it's actually kind of funny.

You know, I remember my freshman year, you know, you know, when you go to film school, there's always like the film snobs, right? The guys and gals that have seen every black and white film and, you know, I know, knows the names of every actor, director, and everyone involved. And so it's a little intimidating going into those circles. And I remember the professor going around asking, hey, so, you know, what's, what films really speak to you right now? And I remember, you know, everyone went around and said their films, you know, one guy said, his girl Friday, one said Citizen Kane. And, you know, so they went down the line with the classics. And I was the only one that said, you know, man, all fire.

Right. Fantastic film. Fuck, yeah, yeah, truly, Denzel, man, and just, you know. One of his best for sure. Truly, truly. And so I mentioned Man on Fire and like the kind of the class kind of like laughed at that. You know, it's like man on fire. It's like, you know, we're talking about Citizen Kane and you're mentioning Man on Fire.

But then, you know, what I tried to express to them is like, you know, what I really appreciated about the film was just the visual choices that they made, you know, because I think it was like multi-formatted cameras and just like it was very, it was very, very fresh, edgy, and unique at the time. And I was really attracted to that. Yeah. So, answer your question, yeah, what was that, that intimidation, I guess? I think any 19-year-old who says their favorite film is Citizen Kane is full of shit. Like, they definitely read a book that said, like, that's what the movie that they're supposed to like.

And then they go, like, oh, it's that one. Give me an A. Yeah, for sure. I actually had the same experience in film school. But my answer was men in black. and everyone went, really. And to this day, to this day, it's one of my favorite films. Man, Will Smith, man.

One of my favorites for sure. Well, and someone had explained to me that men in black is somewhat unique in that it's one of the few movies where the hero chooses the adventure. Most of the time, the adventures thrust upon them. And in that one, you've got Will coming in and going like, here's the thing. You respect the skills. I'm here because I want to be, you know, that thing. And I think that makes that film a lot of fun.

Truly, truly. yeah uh so your uh your dad was a was a car painter or a mechanic yeah yeah so um my father you know he was a mechanic at first and then he started he opened up his own you know car and body shop where he would just you know fix uh cars and you know collision cars um so he would you know repair them paint them and all that then he's then he had like a tow truck business so it was like very everything surrounded around cars and as a kid i would you know spend my summers at the shot just kind of like um watching these these cars just being become transformed from just like trash to just just being reborn essentially and just being painted and um yeah it's been a lot of summers

just sweeping the floors and watching the the the mechanics and the and the folks just like repairing old cars it's kind of what's that i was that i was going to say did that kind of problem solving and work ethic rub off on you at all or did you fucking hate that? There was parts of it that I that I disliked for sure but there but there was parts of as a kid you know it's interesting to kind of see see this kind of stuff you know just see but I think inadvertently this was this work ethic for sure rubbed off I never really thought about it until now never really equated how this stuff contributed to who I am now but but I definitely see that now I see how it has for sure good question

you know it's just something that I've been thinking about a lot is like the the random little things that had nothing to do with film school or or artistry in any form that kind of inform my work you know music was always an easy one to link up you know but then there's you know other stuff like magic I've really recently really been getting into, I was a magician, like my whole childhood and just only recently have started to draw parallels between them or like, you know, love of engineering or anything like that, like architecture. I've noticed a lot of DPs were architects at one point or studied architecture

and stuff like that. It's funny you mentioned that. And I think maybe this is why I chose civil engineering and not architecture as a focus after high school. As a kid, I used to draw a lot as a kid, you know, just like random stuff, you know, just little little things or whatever. And I went through a period where I would draw my own blueprints of like dream homes that I would want. And I don't know how I got to this point of drawing blueprints. It wasn't like thrust it upon me, no one said, hey, try this. It was just like something I just started doing one day and just started drawing out schematics and dream homes and things like that. And yeah, I guess, I guess there is some important connection there too. Yeah, it's, I wonder what that is. I wonder what it is about

building a home or a workspace that attracts so many visual people. I wonder to do. That's a, it's a funny one. In films, you know, a lot of, a lot of people have the like, should I go to film school question. And I feel like I have a over, if anyone's listened to all of these fucking podcasts, they probably know what my position is. But. But I was wondering what value you pulled from the two years in film school that you spent. And then I'll tell you just to not, I just don't want to color your opinion before we get in there. Okay, for sure. So, yeah, so since I didn't have access to, you know, living in New York, it's really rare to stumble into filmmakers or anyone in crews, really.

Occasionally, very rarely you would see, you know, a set. happening in some city street but I didn't have back yeah but I wouldn't I didn't have any access to that industry and so really I thought that the only way was to just you know go to a film school and just kind of figured out that way and for me personally those two years that I spent in film school were just like incredibly valuable you know the it the school used to have a structure where it was like you're a freshman, so you can only use this level of equipment. Sophomore, now you can use this, junior, senior, now you can get access to the big, you know, film cameras,

the SR2s and all this stuff. But, you know, I came in when there was a new film chair, it was Richard DiAngelo, and he just kind of reimagined the whole system and said, you know, you're a freshman, here, have it all, you know, use everything. So now I had access to like the Fisher Dahliaz as a freshman, you know. Maybe responsible, but no, but still, I had all these tools to my disposal that I could just use and play with and learn and just like mess up a bunch of times.

Incredibly valuable stuff. And I thank him for that. And then, you know, and the people that I met that are still friends to this day, relationships that I built in college that carried on into the real world and into the industry. and just kind of like it just these two years just you know introduced me to a ton of incredible equipment incredible people you know it it broadened my my view on films and how to speak about films and how to make them and so it just really set me up um you know it gave me the base level set me up for the real world and uh i it can put yeah super super valuable for me but i know there's this, you know, there's a debate whether you need it or not, you know,

because you could take that money you spent on film school and you just start making films of your own, buy a camera, go out and shoot. And that's, that's totally true. You can do that, especially if you have mentors or people that you have access to that you can ask questions and things, you know, people you can bounce ideas of. If you have a community, then perhaps that's a route you can take. But for me personally, I didn't have that. And so going to film school was just, yeah, it was super valuable. Yeah, so I actually fully agree with you. I think film school is an incredible place to, like you said, build a community,

find people that you're going to end up working with. I mean, I've said this before, like at least 10 of my friends, and actually more, I'm finding more of them from college. So the initial 10, we all moved to L.A. at the same time, right? Oh, wow. And now I'm running into more and more friends from college. I went to Arizona State. There's, you know, 58,000 kids at my school.

And we went and saw Batman the other night. And a buddy of mine, I haven't seen in 12 years, just plops down next to us. And we're like, oh, what's that, bud? You know, that kind of thing. Incredible. Incredible. But there's also something to be said that you mentioned that I think is really important. You said it more or less, which is like building the filmmaker holistically instead of, because I think the idea of, oh, you don't need film school.

comes from people thinking, as long as you can make an image, you're good. And it's like, no, you do need to know, like, the history of film. Other shit. The other thing, too, is like, just being in college teaches you other stuff that you take into filmmaking. That's absolutely true. You know, I think going to, where I went to school, it was just completely outside of the community that I grew up in. So now I'm thrust it into an environment that's completely unfamiliar.

And so even through that and interacting with people that are different from the community that I came from and just had different, you know, just a different outlook on life and just a different culture, it was just, it was, it was wonderful to experience that. And I think that contributed to my growth as well. So you're absolutely right. Totally. So you, you, you grab, you drop out of film school and you start going off and making short films, music videos and stuff with your friends. What was that sort of, what, that look like? In the sense, that's what an open-ended shitty question. What I mean is like, you know, how long were you doing that for? Like what were the things that you learned? Maybe some of the lessons that you still to this day, like, you know, can point to that time and go like, that's, thank God that happened or whatever. Oh, man, huge, huge moment in my, in my, you know, in my early career and just, just really, yeah, there's some things that happened that kind of shaped who I am today. And so I remember during my sophomore year, the year, the year, that I was going to drop out, I remember, you know, I was, I was, I actually did buy a camera

while I was in, um, college. I had the, uh, the Panasonic HVX 200. It was like, you know, mini TV tapes, but I think you could, you could also put like a P2 card in there and it was like, kind of like a thing. And so, so I was going to college. And I just found opportunities where I could do some work outside of college as well, where it was just, I don't know, filming some little documentary or little thing for some local person because, you know, I had a camera sitting I was going to film school. So that was, you know, it was the thing. And so I was, I was doing some jobs outside of film school. And it started to become more frequent and more frequent. And I remember I had a directing teacher. And, you know, because the school just, it doesn't just

focus on cinematography, teachers, everything. And my directing teacher, she goes, you know, I think, you're not coming to class as much anymore. And I think, I think you just just drop out. And I remember feeling like, you know, no, I got to, I got to stay in college. You know, my folks, they want me to graduate, you know, this would be important for them. Ultimately, I just, I just, I took her advice. But so as soon as I, you know, left, left college, I was working in a lot of music videos, a ton of low paid music videos in New York. I mean, we're talking about, like, sometimes they were, they were, you know, freebies.

sometimes there were like a hundred bucks here and there you know just like a little chunk change we've all done them yeah yeah but you know you know so it was a lot of that a lot of like doing like day in the life following these artists around going to different cities and just like a little mini doc yeah oh i hate that so much the fucking hey man why don't you follow me around with your camera for a week how much money do you have uh 50 bucks i'll give you lunch though you're like Oh man You used to always be like Yeah we can't pay

But we can give you a meal and credit You know Oh yeah The exposure yeah So it was a lot of that A lot of just like working on little to no pay jobs Music videos Just kind of like cracking away

Cracking away You know my folks They didn't really understand it They were like you know Why are you working for free You know what's going on They try to convince me to stop doing it To get a job

Do something else but I you know I stuck with it and then you know I then I remember like I did now fast forward a couple years and you know a few music video a bunch of music videos in and I remember waking up in a hotel room in Atlanta the morning of a shoot and thinking to myself man I am not happy this is not I'm not into this at all and I made a decision I was like all right I'm going to stop doing music videos because I'm just not feeling it. And I don't want to fall out of love with what I do. And so I stopped doing music videos and it was just focusing more in short films. And, you know, at the time, there was a lot of

short films that were coming my way. And what was great about that is that I could really focus on, you know, narrative filmmaking, building visuals to support the story and just like honing in on that aspect of it and the continuity of light between scenes and scenes and the you know, and the continuity of the aesthetic throughout the film and just kind of like slowly building this philosophy that I have now. But even with that, even with music video, with short films, you know, they don't pay well. So you just have to do everything. You know, everything that comes your way is to sustain a living.

And then, you know, and then during that, you know, features started to come my way. I remember this this is like a very like pinnacle moment in my in my early you know my early times where a feature came my way and I didn't really you know connect with the story or the script the conditions in which we were going to film this this this feature weren't the best and it was really nothing tying me to it except for the fact that I needed to get I needed money I needed to you know to get paid. really, to sustain this continuation of this career. And so I took the film just for a paycheck, worst mistake that I've ever made. But actually, I don't regret it because now with that, I learned that I don't, I don't choose films anymore for paychecks at all. You know, my whole philosophy now is, you know, I want to preserve the purity of narrative filmmaking, of telling stories. as an art form and not let it get muddied with with money and it's part of the reason why I don't own a camera either or gear for that matter nothing because I want to go in as like you're hiring

me for the visuals that I can create I want to go in without any like baggage you know I own this camera so now you have to use this camera because I own this camera or I own these lenses so here you have to use these lenses because I own this lens so now just a clean slate you're I'm coming into this project pure and I'm, you know, to service it in the way that it needs to be serviced. And so that experience, you know, working on that film and I was just had a miserable time because I really just didn't connect with any aspect of it at all. And the thing about, the funny thing about it is that, you know, the money wasn't even that great. So I just did because I really needed it. So that informed the choices that I make now. He's like, you know, I no longer

choose to make films for money. What I do instead now to kind of balance the books, you know, just commercials are perfect, you know, because, you know, they're low risk. You can experiment with new gear. Some, you know, most of the times it really isn't a deep emotional connection to the material that you're shooting,

especially if it's like a hair product, you know, there's no... I love Chevrolet so much, you know. Right, right. So it's a beautiful balance because now I get to go and shoot these commercials for a few days here and there, different cities, different things, meet you people, try new techniques, work with different directors, sustain a living that way. And then now I have the ability to say yes and no to specific narrative projects. Now I can look at a project and read the script, talk to the director, understand the approach, and make a decision whether or not I'm the right fit for it, versus back in the day when I was first starting out, I would take everything. And so, and this is going back to the whole music video thing when I woke up in Atlanta and I realized I had to stop doing this because I was falling out of love with it. And then the same, I took this feature, I was miserable.

Okay, I have to stop doing this because I don't want to fall out of love of what I love. of you know of this this craft that i that i'm into um and so i make these choice these things happen in my life that kind of inform these choices and all of it to kind of just preserve the purity of just telling stories yeah no it's uh you had a handful of really uh good things to touch on in there um first off uh i mentioned this in the last interview i did but uh david blaine actually has a great going back to the magic thing david blaine has a great quote or whatever he said which was basically he doesn't agree to anything unless he would do it for a dollar if he wouldn't do it for a single for one dollar he's not going to do it so he's turned down like million dollar projects just because he's like i don't i wouldn't do it for one why would i do it for a million you know um so i kind of yeah and so that's kind of been sitting well i just read it three days ago so i really it's been it's been on my mind uh because it is like something that is

something that people should consider you know and you can do well so that brings me to the next part which is um how do you balance the commercial world with the narrative world? In other words, how are you picking up these commercials and how are you picking up these narratives and how do you balance that schedule-wise? Yeah, so, you know, there are times for sure where the commercials and the narrative will kind of conflict. I'm actually dealing with that now where I have a few commercial offers and a narrative feature that I really want to do as well. So it's just kind of figuring out the balance there.

But, you know, as far as like these commercials, you know, they, a lot of it has come through previous relationships, word of mouth, really, and just outreach, you know, I, I would see, you know, sometimes I would see really cool things that were made on social media or wherever Vimeo. And I would just like reach out to directors and look to just have to, a conversation and to get some coffee or to meet or, you know, just showing genuine appreciation to their craft and what they would do, what they do with the project that they did. And so a lot of it is that just outreaching, you know, word of mouth, you know, previous connections. You know, there's a level of work that also comes through my agency, which is really nice. And then, you know,

the same thing with narrative, narrative, you know, previous relationships, word and mouth and a combination of that with the agency as well. And it's just been really a really great balance, truly, you know. Yeah, I don't know if that answers the question. No, it, well, because that's kind of where I personally would like to be. I'd love to be doing commercials and finding time for narratives. At the moment, most of my stuff is sort of corporate gigs, which is you know pays bills certainly yeah i know for sure not not entirely not that i commercials just seem more fun but um i've had a few people ask i guess me or we've conversations have popped up around the agency thing how how important has that been to your career and uh at what point

in your career did that sort of come about yeah you know when i was when i was younger i was super impatient and I thought I need an agent, I need an agent now and I would like research the top cinematography agencies and kind of make a short list of like the ones that I would like to reach out to and thought that that was the thing that would take my career to the next level. I thought that I really needed an agency at that time and I was completely wrong. You know, it just doesn't work that way. And I think that, you know, agents should come to you know, because they, agents do a really good job at going to the festivals, looking for new talent, seeing who's doing what, what's going on, and they'll eventually reach out to you. You know, you keep doing great work,

you keep being consistent, you keep being true to yourself and the work that you do, you'll eventually knock on your door. And that's kind of what happened to me. And, you know, they just showed genuine interest in the work that I was doing. And, you know, and I think that, you know, signing with an agency has what it's done for me, It's that now I have access to, you know, other collaborators and other directors or other projects that I might not have had access to if I were just like, you know, without that. You know, my agent sent me scripts here and there that I wouldn't have heard of if they hadn't sent me the script. And so that gives me the opportunity to read the script, see how I connect, meet with the filmmakers. And that just kind of just broadens my exposure a bit, you know, even if it doesn't work out on that script that I received now, you know, they remember me.

They remember that conversation we had, that meeting that we had. And I think what it does is just kind of, it expands my reach. And when I was hungry for an agent when I was younger, it actually, I reflect on that now. It really wasn't the right time for me. Like I, but I was just impatient. I wanted to just go right away. But I realize now that, you know, the best thing to do, really, if I could speak to my younger self, and in which is kind of what I did, was to just continue working on the craft and continue

polishing, continue improving, continue becoming a better version of yourself. And eventually, that'll, you know, the agents will manifest for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Another kind of related question that has come up a lot is how important is a reel and are reels dead? I think if you're first starting out and you don't have a lot of projects, a reel is important for sure. I had, you know, many different reels and I, you know, early on, it was always like refreshing the reel, 2000, whatever reel, 2000, this reel. and you would always update it and you know every year and at the time you know that was the thing to do because you know I didn't I didn't have a lot of projects to show and so I would take the best shots of

everything that I've done put it together and that you know with that people get a sense of the kind of stuff that I do and that could start the conversation eventually as I started doing more commercials, more narrative projects, it became less about creating a reel and more about, okay, here's a trailer to this piece, is a teaser to this piece, you know, here's the actual full commercial spot. And so, you know, you go on my website now and it's, you know, trailers, on trailers, or the full, you know, music video or the full commercial. And I think, I think that's a better representation of a cinematography. for his consistency, you know, because then, you know, you give access to producers and directors

to see consistency throughout a piece. So if they're watching a two-minute trailer, they can see now different environments, different scenes, different, you know, moments throughout this narrative piece, and they can get a better sense of, you know, your voice versus a reel, you know, you're selecting the best shots, and sometimes they may, once they see a reel, they may want to see more. They may want to see, you know, the full piece. But I don't knock reals because I used to do them all the time. And, and I think that if you, if you're still building your portfolio, you're still accumulating works, then a realist, I think, is for sure the way to go if you're first starting out. Sure. You know, you mentioned your website. I gave it a quick

peek before we spoke. And I noticed you had a segment with photography in it. And were those paintings as well or were those photos and textures? Yeah. Paintings. Actually. So talk to me about your photo and painting work then. Like, where did that kind of, is that a newer skill you've acquired? So photography was always kind of there. You know, it was, it was, it was always there. You know, I'll always bring my film camera on a set. And what do you have?

Too many, too many. I have, yeah, but I'll tell you, I have, you know, my, I think my first film camera was a Canon AE1, 35 millimeter. Classic. Loved it, man. I recommend, I can recommend everyone to shoot film because it just, it allows you to just work on your restraint and just, you know, you start thinking about things a bit more deeply, where versus like a digital camera, you're just kind of like, just, you know,

shooting everything and anything. And so shooting on film just allowing me to just be more specific and deliberate about my shots. You know, I have a digital camera as well now, but I still take the same film approach where I'm specific about the shots that I take. You know, sometimes I'll frame up a shot and not hit the trigger because it just didn't feel right. So I have that. I have, you know, I have two medium format cameras, a yeshika and a rolloflex. And I have a large format camera. Oh, wow. Yeah, four by five, Crown Graphics. That one's a little tough.

You know, a lot of my stuff, I love doing. Oh, you don't take that for street photography? That's the thing. I would love to. I would love to take it for street photography because that's like what really excites me is just hitting the streets and finding stories unfold out in the streets and capturing that story. At this stage, I'm not too into studio photography, but I don't knock it.

You know, some people doing some beautiful studio photography work. A friend of mine actually. he spent some time in India and he also has a large format camera and he went on in the streets with his large format camera but he had a liaison with him that he could so that would talk to the locals and ask if their picture could be taken and you know he would throw him some money and so he was just he was able to capture some beautiful scenes and textures out in the streets of India in uh in Chennai um with his large format camera which is incredible that's like that's I would love to do that.

But yeah, so I always have my film camera with me and, you know, some of the stuff you'll see on my website, you know, some of it is just actors between takes. Yeah, that, that collection is really beautiful. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I always have a camera strapped around me whenever I see an opportunity, I'll race it up to the actor and just kind of like find a moment and capture that. It's beautiful. It's just such an, it's kind of like, you know, in between the takes, it's just so intimate because they're usually to themselves and they're just in their heads. And I kind of like try to sneak in very delicately and try to try to find a nice moment there.

The painting, that's actually came up. That's a new development, really. You know, during the lockdown, you know, we were stuck at home for three and a half months, maybe more. And I didn't have a creative outlet, you know. yeah I would watch films you know every day but I didn't have I couldn't go out and make them and that was that was typically my release you know or I would go out and shoot you know street photography that was also a release and I didn't have any of that you know and I didn't want to do the technical work of just editing all this photo all the photos that I had to edit you know I just became stale and uninteresting and I remember sitting on my couch one day and I'm just like weird but I thought I was going to going mad. Just visions of color just started popping in my head and shapes and weird stuff. I don't know what was going on, man. And then I thought, okay, I guess the only way to really just express what I'm seeing is to just get some papers, some canvases and some acrylics and just start

painting. And I've found it to be incredibly therapeutic. The perfect creative release. It was, it was incredible those those three months of just painting and it's uh i tried to to do that to do more of it here now now the industry's picked up and everyone's working i try to find time to continue that habit um it's a little tough but but those those three months painting those pieces is truly truly was a special time yeah they i am not a trade major by the way that was my first time trying something but it was for me what all it really was was an expression of self and color and what I was feeling and what I was seeing and and yeah, I know it was a beautiful time. Yeah, I, I, I often, a buddy of mine's a painter and I often wish I, because there are like

shapes in my head saying that kind of you're saying that I wish I could articulate like that, but I also shoot, I have a RZ 67, so that's not a street photography camera, but I have a Nikon F2, so that's a little easier, but I do let medium format photography. But, uh, Uh, where was I going to go with this? Oh, you should, uh, do what? You should paint, man. If you feel it and if you, and if you have these things that you want to express, just get a canvas, get some paint and just go for it. I do it next to a Michaels.

Perfect. There you go. Same here, actually. Oh, no shit. Yeah. You had, you had mentioned the, the lockdown. During my time, uh, in the lockdown, uh, in the lockdown, I became a colorist because people had a bunch of shit that they needed that they had like finished, but they just didn't have any colors. So I started doing that, which was great for me

as a cinematographer, because now I can, you know, especially doing the many hats production that I do. Yeah. You know, it's a value add for clients and stuff like that. And, uh, kind of swinging into the film that you're here to talk about. The whole film shot beautifully, but I kept noticing this color thing that I was like, ah, that's, that's the thing. I'm, I know that really looks like that Jill Bogdanovitz color that I love. And then I go through the credits and I was like, fuck, there she is. Oh, wow. I'll have to tell her that next time I see her. She'll be, yeah, she'll love to hear that. Yeah, her color work is, is absolutely some of my favorites. There's this weird, like, creaminess and in the whites and this, like, blue light that I have yet to replicate. Not that I want to, like, copy her, but I just want to know how to do it just so I know what it is.

Because it's, it's, I really love her work. But she, she complimented your photography beautifully. Oh, oh, great. I mean, yeah, no, like she, she, you know, one of the things the director and I, Mo McCrae, you know, we like to give people the ability to express themselves as well. You know, it's never like, this is what we want, do this, and that's it. And even with Jill at company three, it was a super collaborative effort, you know. We went in for the first few hours just talking about philosophy, you know, we had references. You know, there were things that we were interested in. And, and through these conversations, you know, conversations and through Jill's experience, we were able to just kind of like develop the look. And she and she went for it. You know, she put a lot of herself into it as well. It wasn't just Mo and I saying do this. She was totally part of the team on equal footing. And the three of us just kind of developed, you know, what we see now. And yeah, no, she's incredibly talented. And the one thing, too, Mo, he always said he wanted the film to kind of have its own aesthetic. He didn't want it to necessarily, you know, look like any specific film where you can say, oh, that, you know,

a lot of nothing looks like this. It looks like that. Totally. He wanted it to kind of just feel like unique where the film itself becomes a reference for someone else, you know, and hopefully we achieve that. So we'll see. Yeah. I, I, uh, so what's funny is the studio or whoever, sent me the film this morning. So about 15 minutes before you got on, I finished it. So when we sat down, I was still kind of in this weird headspace. It was like, all right, I need to focus. Like, what was I going to ask?

It's a great, it's a really great movie. I'm sure they're going to love it at South By. Have you done any other interviews for this film yet? Just, yes, with like here, I just did an interview. Okay, so we'll talk. So you're using light mats? Or did they just interview you? Yeah, they just interviewed me.

I think we had a couple of light mats. Yeah, we actually did have a couple of light mats on. But that wasn't the reason for the interview. They just like, yeah, they just hit me up and wanted to talk. Gotcha. So the reason I asked all those questions is one, the light mats and the Titan tubes seem to be in every DP's kit. Yeah.

Did you use the Titan tubes on this? we for sure use the Or two Yeah Dude I got to call a stare And have them to sponsor Because we talk about them Every week

Listen if you get a free kit You know That's that's the way to do it then I would I'll take that Yeah 100% Yeah we used We actually use the

The Titans on So at the There's the main house Where James and Vanessa lives You know There's at the house There's just outside of the windows

There's just like beautiful Like waterfall outside of the dining dining room window, big, big tall windows, and there's this waterfall on the other side and just like a small little pond of water, very small. And so, so basically we just got some underwater housings for these tight-ins and we put them underwater and we can just, we didn't have to deal with like cables or anything like that. It was just wireless and it was just perfect. And we would we would sprinkle these tubes out of sight. You know, a lot of things, a lot with this, you know, we had a 17-minute oneer. So that's why I asked if you had been interviewed about this before, because I would assume everyone's going to ask you about the oneer.

But if I'm the first, let's talk about it. Let's do it, man. Yeah. Oh, man. So, wow, wow, wow, wow. Okay, so Mo always had this oneer in mind. Like, he always wanted the film to open into oneer. And, you know, there were a lot of folks trying to talk them out of it.

You know, it's like, oh, you need coverage. You need coverage. But kudos to him for sticking with it and just like not. allowing to be swayed and just kind of like this is what he wanted and we're going to find a way to make it happen and you know we're in the house right so we're dealing with two actors in one house fortunately the house was was big and it was a nice looking house so there was ways to hide things and so you're we're following you know we're following james one character walking through many parts of the house eventually he sits next to his wife and they're having a conversation

and watching TV, watching TV, and then they start to get into it, and they move to another part of the house. And it just becomes this dance of now we're in multiple areas of the house. We want it to be in a warner, right? Moe just wants this, like, fluid, uninterrupted, unpredictable feeling. And so now we're thinking, and we didn't want any hidden cuts or anything like that. So we're thinking about, okay, so we have to light this kind of in a 360 way. with very specific blocking, specific areas where the lighting would be the most flattering

of the most interesting or the most dark for the moment. So, you know, we did a lot of like overhead rigging, little points of light here and there that we could hide out of frame. You know, we did the one on a steady cam. You know, shout out to Aaron Gant, who was an incredible, incredible, incredible, steady cam operator and just operator in general. 17 minutes is a long time to be on a steady cam. man trooper trooper and i'm gonna there's another thing about aaron too that's incredible um and

also shout shout out to the focus pillar erin chung you you just like kept a charlie out incredible i don't know how people do that job is such a yeah i mean it's it's it's unbelievable um and so and so we have the 17 minute winner we're figuring out how to light it you know we're we're getting into that mode and then i am in pre-production with mo at the office and you know we're just having philosophical conversations and we're dissecting the 17 minute wonder, right? Because we didn't want to just like document this moment. We wanted things to be specific, right? We wanted calculated decisions where the camera is going to be at which moment. Who is it going to be on? And looking at the scene and how it flows and who is the scene more important? Who's more important

in this moment of the scene? And do we want to see this person's face? Or is it better? to not see the reaction of this person. And so we went line by line, moment by moment, making those decisions. You know, there's a moment that, you know, James is saying some stuff that Vanessa just doesn't agree with, doesn't want to hear. And the camera shifts to her. And we're on her face and seeing how she's reacting to what he's saying. And so we're making a lot of deliberate choices like that, a lot of philosophical choices like that. And through these conversation, Mo, there's a moment in the story. script where in the scene where things become incredibly tense, like super, super tense.

And Moe looks over to me and goes, so, you know, what if, what if we went handheld here? I was wondering about that. Yeah. So that is a handoff? Oh, it's a handoff. Oh, I thought he was just giving him one of those. It's a handoff and it's like this crazy operation. And I kind of like freeze for a second, right?

as he tells me there's not just like looking at him because I don't I don't really know what to say yet and I and I said and the first thing I said let's call Aaron you know our Aaron gang let's see what he said so because I I totally agreed with him I was like you know going handheld in this moment is is the right call it's just perfect for what's happening in the scene we also didn't want to do a hidden cut we wanted to be a real uh transition to handheld so we called Aaron we told him what we're looking for He said, give me a couple days. He came back with some ideas. Him and our key grip was also extraordinary Philip Collins.

Yeah, they both came up with a solution that allowed us to go from Aaron's steady cam rake to me on the easy rig transition handoff to continue the last few minutes of the scene in handheld. So pretty much, you know, Aaron does, I think it's like 15 minutes of the scene. um, steady cam and we get to a specific point and Philip and I are hiding in the corner. I have my easy rig and I'm holding on to it. He's behind me. We're hiding somewhere. And we know when we need to, you know, and then the cue comes and we sneak up behind, um, Aaron on the steady cam. And Phil has this like two-handed operations. So Aaron is holding on to the stem of the steady cam to keep it steady. The scene, by the way, the scene is still going on. There's still dialogue,

There's still conversation. There's still stuff. And we have to do this in a delicate way so the actors don't get, you know, we don't take them out of the zone. Again, no cuts. So their performances have to be on point. We have to be on point. So Aaron is holding on to the stem to keep it steady.

Phil is going for this quick release plate on the slide of the steady camp. At the same time, his other hand is holding on to my, to the connector of my easy rig. So he connects me on the easy rig. pulls the quick release plate. At this time, I'm holding on to the camera. So now we have six hands holding on to the camera, to the steady cam, doing a bunch of stuff. So it just looks like a six-handed operation. And eventually the camera gets released.

I'm holding on to the camera. Phil and Aaron just kind of like trickle away. And I continue the scene in handheld. And now I'm pushing forward on them and getting really close, really intimate, it subtle shake and just kind of like bouncing between the two, finding these moments. And it was just, yeah, it was a really powerful, like, just collaboration. Everyone involved, it was like, you know, the actors crushed it, you know, the camera team, incredible, you know, from Aaron Chung just keeping everything sharp to, you know,

everyone else in the camera team just keeping our wireless signals, you know, connected and everyone is able to see, you know, that's also hiding, hiding, yeah, hiding that and not seeing in the frame and keeping everything connected is incredible. You know, even the art department, they had a lot of balancing they needed to do too, like moving tables out of the way, bringing it back in. So there's a lot of stuff happening. Um, sound department. I mean, that's also incredible. You know, they stayed out of reflections. They stayed out of, you know, it was unbelievable, unbelievable. experience. A lot of shiny stuff in that room.

Yeah. Which you use beautifully, by the way. Great reflection plays or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. We actually utilized, yeah, yeah. As you saw, played a lot with reflections and just like, you know, a lot of this really

was just Mo and I finding, you know, trying to incorporate, you know, the space and using philosophical choices on what the characters might be feeling. and how we can use the space to reflect some of that. But yeah, the Steadicam handoff and handheld in 17-minute Warner. That was a special thing with all departments coming together. It was beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, you know, it's, I knew it was. So had a few thoughts on it.

First, like, you could clip that 17-minute chunk, because it is just the intro, then credits go, you know, or the opening credits. That could be the promo for the film. You know, I like, Because what made me think that was at about the 10 minute mark, I went, wait, is this a oneer? Like, because it just really, you know, brings you in. And I was thinking, the joke in my head that I made was like, I wonder if you could sneak this in before a movie as like the trailer and just play it and see how long it takes until the audience goes, oh, wait a minute.

What's happening? Right. I'm really glad you said that because, you know, the fact that, you know, the fact that, you know, it maybe it took you a little longer to notice. said it was a wonder because it just things started to click and things were working and maybe there was you know yeah testament to the actors and just to the choices of angles I think maybe that kept things a bit more engaging well yeah it's I mean the acting is fantastic but also it's it doesn't draw attention itself until I think they leave the couch in which case you're like oh wait a minute there's more movement than we were expecting but yeah just really really well executed

and really sets the tone for the film in a perfect way. And then kicks, you know, it's the, it actually did make me think of like when we were in film school and they were like, oh, you got to make sure that, you know, we were shooting on DV. You know, we got an XL2 or a DVX 100. You know, you got to add production value. And I remember my buddy, my buddy Smalls had a crane and we abused a jib arm and we abused the shit out of that thing. Oh, my goodness.

I had this situation. I had a person in school that owned a Jimmy Jib arm and we'd, Always use it. Great. Go ahead. Everything. Yeah. So when it went from the one or to the helicopter shot, I was like, production value.

You know, I did the super eight production value. Talk to me about kind of your approach to lighting because the film is very stylized, but in a sort of natural way. It doesn't feel lit. And I think it's a look that a lot of people, as you said, are kind of going for or will potentially want to emulate, not that I'm trying to have you give away the secret sauce necessarily. But, you know, what was your approach to getting that, that sort of look and keeping it consistent?

I think, I think for me personally, I love the natural style. You know, I love when, you know, I think it's project to project, you know, there are some projects like one that I shot recently that was more expressive. there's more deliberate choices there. But for the most part, I like this natural feeling, you know, motivated feeling. And going into this film, it was a two-part thing, really, is giving the sense of just like a natural environment,

but also lighting it in a way where the actors kind of had freedom to kind of move around, you know, and to improvise to a certain extent, you know, So we would light it in a way where they had the ability to move, right? So I don't want to say 360 lighting, but there was an element of, like, you know, rigging most things overhead and out of sight, you know, very soft lighting. And then we would add some pops of color here and there. We would add some, you know, some negative fill behind camera and in places where the camera wouldn't see.

Just to add a level of shape and contrast to it as well. but for the most part it was you know the choice was we want this to feel natural we want this to feel what's the right word unassuming in a way where it doesn't bring a lot of attention to itself and but at the same time given the actor's space to to move around so so we did have like some rigging points overhead where we would have like units here and there and just like diffusion to just have this like soft light coming down and rarely, rarely had units on the ground except for a handful of moments in the house where actors were like specific and deliberate sitting down having a conversation about, you know, certain things.

And in there, then we were like, you know, have units on the ground and shape it a different way just to elicit a different feeling. But for the most part, most of our lights came from above. And that was the luxury of this house is that, you know, it was big, spacious. It allowed us to treat it kind of like a studio where we can create rigging points and have units up there and just kind of adjust them as we needed. Just using spreaders? Yeah, spreaders. We had a rigging team come into the house the day before we needed to be in there to set those points up for us, set our units up.

And then we would just tweak as we needed. Some of the units were on wireless, which was great, quick adjustments there. But yeah, it was just a lot of spreaders, a lot of, you know, just creating a grid essentially in certain rooms. Yeah, it's really is a very, the word modern comes to mind, but that almost feels reductive in some way. But it just has this very good, you know, I don't know what the budget was for this, but it looks as high budget as any film you would see, you know. And just because it's by South by, I assumed it was lower budget, you know. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. isn't it? So, I mean, that is a compliment. I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, we, we, we had, you know, just, we didn't have a lot of money to make this happen. And so, a lot of people came into this, you know, and it wasn't about a paycheck, again. It was about the story, the people involved and, and doing something really special and great. And, you know, Mo does a really, really good job at casting people. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone's perfect in this film. Yeah. And not just actors, but two casting people behind the scenes, you know, his department, the people, you know, from, from different departments and just the collaborators that have brought on to this, you know, everyone just had the same mindset of making something great. And it's great to hear that the film looks expensive because that's a super compliment. Thank you. Yeah, it's, it really, it's, it draws you in and it looks good. And it's got all the things that, and the script's good, obviously. But it's got all the things that just, you know, like I said, I literally just watch it. So I haven't quite had the time to, to, like, analyze. I hit pause on the credits and then walked over here to talk to you. But what was your shooting packed on?

Just like, was Alexa, I assume? Yeah, Alexa Mini. And, you know, we had a, our lens, our glass was the, some old Cook S2 pankros. Some specific, yeah, some specific ones that Mo really liked. And yeah, it was a pretty. Pretty basic package. No, no funny, no, no, no, no little, nothing really extra, I guess, for lack of better words. But it was just a very basic package with a really nice set of glass. Yeah. Any filtration at all?

No, zero. No filters. No. I mean, just, just your occasional rotopola, you know, outside and, and NND here and there. But, you know, no filters at all. You know, because there's a level of texture that we like to add after the, you know, in color. Totally. So I feel like, you know, keeping it as clean as possible, we'll give us the most range to do that. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I used to be a big filter guy, big diffusion guy. I feel like a lot of people.

Me too, man. But recently I've been, especially with full frame cameras, I've been really starting to push back on filtration. A, because you can add the texture in post, but B. I feel like, especially in full frame, like that higher physical resolution kind of smooths things out. It's not as sharp as digital seems to be. Yeah. It's an interesting, interesting. One of my first, actually, I think this was my second feature film a very long time ago, over 10 years ago.

It actually worked with Robert England. It was, it was. Oh, wow. Freddie. Yeah. Amazing to work with him. Kruger for anyone. listening, not just Freddy, someone, not just some guy named Freddy.

It was amazing to work with him, man. But the film, the film actually is, it's not a good film, not to trash talk, but it ended up being like a B, C, horror kind of thing, you know, but it was, it was good for me in the beginning of just to kind of like work on this and kind of like went to palette. But I remember, I shot on the red at that time. And I remember like stacking it with filters. I mean, like stacking it. I'm trying to remember what I had, but it was like Hollywood black magic mixed with some softening filter.

And then, so now we have, yeah, so it's like a double stack of softening. And then I shot wide open. And then I would haze up most of the environments. So it was just like. Oh, man. Yeah. Was this the MX? This was, no.

This was when the, was the epic. What was the first one that looked like a square robots? Yeah, the epic, I guess. Yeah, it was when the epic bird just came out, we shot out on that. And actually, no, this might have been the, no, this was the epic for sure. No, this was the MX, definitely the MX, the big canon. And, and yeah, I just stack filters. But now, now I just, I don't use those filters at all anymore.

Just, you know, not that I don't use them anymore, very, very rarely, and it's project-dependent. And the most that I would ever go is like an eighth. something you know yeah it would just be and maybe it's for a close-up or something you know something and it has to be a deliberate choice it can't it can't just be vanity you know it has to be it has to say something yeah you know i was talking to uh ellen curris she uh she's uh scorcise's documentary dp she's shot with spike lee um awesome career and she uh you know that i certainly used a lot of black promis um the internet if you've ever been on youtube once and watched a camera video, everyone's like, you got to get the black promisc because it gives you the cinematic

image and heavy air quotes. And me and Ellen were talking about filtration. And she, she like nearly spit. She was like, I never used the promist. It's just fuzzy. I'm making her sound angry than she was. But she was like, she's like, it's just fuzzy. You know, it doesn't have any sensibility. It's like using a frost on a light. You know, it just kicks it everywhere. And There's no, there's no directionality to it. And I was like, I guess I'm never using the pro-mist again. Yeah, no, it's true. And I actually, I used to use the promiscist as well.

And again, you know, an eighth or fourth is the most. But, you know, it's good to experience those things and use these filters. And, you know, I went from one extreme to the other, you know, from stacking incredible amount of filters to just maybe not using them at all. But it's, it was, I guess it's good to go through those, the motions. and figure out what I was going to say what did that image look like at the end of the day was it just exactly what I'm thinking just log and you can't get out of there exactly what it was and you know we try to justify it by saying it was dreamy you know but the AC was

definitely the focus below was not happy because it was very difficult for him to see and do his job but yeah it's yeah completely just like cloudy and weird but we thought it was cool I don't know, at the time. You know, again, this is 10 years ago. Well, two things. One, it's always great to experiment. And two, failure, and I'd want to put failure in aggressive quotes, is always the best teacher, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

You don't learn from successes. Actually, the camera talk quickly reminded me of a question I was going to ask, which was you had mentioned that you don't own any camera equipment. And it sounds like it's helped you in some ways, but has it hurt you at all? The camera ownership question comes up a lot. I think if it's necessary in some ways, you know. Yeah. Well, you know, I did own a camera during film school and a little bit after that, but then that kind of just dropped off.

And I think early on in my career at the beginning stages, you know, having that camera helped. And then I stopped using the HPX. Actually, I think I lost it, which is a pity. I have no idea what happened to it. It's just completely gone. I saw my XL2. amazing that you have that I would just have had my e-chex my mom does not throw anything away I don't think my mom throw away a camera I think I just lost it which again I don't know how

but anyway so now I'm cameraless right early on in the career and there was a lot of producers and filmmakers looking for DP with a package it was always like in the indie scene that was like a big big thing so in the beginning that was it was kind of tough it was like you know I had to like figure out ways to develop relationships with camera owners, whether it was to a rental house or just like, you know, there was one person that just owned a red, but it wasn't a camera person, but they owned a full package for whatever reason. And I got into a deal with this person where it was like, yeah, you know, like, can I use your package as if it were mine and you'll get a cut out of the rental or whatever. But that was early on, you know, so I can try to access

those those types of jobs and then I started finding myself like not doing that anymore and just kind of like for sure now it doesn't hurt me at all because I I'm grateful that people choose me to shoot their projects because of what I can contribute to it not because it's convenient that I own this that and the other things so and I think it's important to to be viewed that way too, where it's, you know, you know, it's hired John because he can do this kind of thing that we like, not because he owns a camera. And I like that.

And it's freeing and it's, it's, you don't have this baggage of owning gear and and getting it on the, on the project. And it just keeps you, I don't know, it keeps you kind of just pure and just like, you go in and making the right equipment choices for the film, you know. Yeah. Well, and it's in, it's kind of a multifaceted question too, because on the one, hand owning a camera can net you a rental you know you you can make some more money on the thing and a lot i know plenty of dps who uh push for their camera because they know it's the best

option but because they know they'll get a kit rental on it um but also it in many ways can pigeonhole you into a look you know if you own an a whatever an Alexa mini and a set of s fours that's your look and maybe maybe maybe that's you maybe that's what people call you for but as you're saying it doesn't they're not calling you for you they're calling you for this uh you know made to order or not made to order opposite of that it's the same every time whatever that's called you know that thing yeah right um so so yeah so that's kind yeah and and i don't knock people that own gear you know i think that everyone has different reasons for doing this you know some people are really into the technical aspect of it which is incredible

you know some um i'm a big old nerd all i i admit it freely i i'm into it but i have like my attention span with it kind of drops off after a while um i think what excites me the most is just kind of like philosophical talks and story talks and just kind of like how do we translate this emotion this this feeling visually and you know cracking the code on things like that and um you know i think that the the technical aspect of it is absolutely important. And it's something that we should all know as cinematographers. But I try not to get too caught up on it and just to keep myself free to break the rules a little bit, you know, and not be so specific on, well, this camera's dynamic range is this, so I can't do this.

And this, you know, so I try not to be that. But it's good to know these things to then know what rules you can break, you know. Yeah, the, in many ways, digital has added so much unnecessary. complexity that film didn't have for sure and this is something so a little behind the curtain for both you and anyone listening is a lot of times I'll end up doing you know eight of these interviews in a row so my thoughts don't quite change between day to day so I'm going to repeat something that probably is going to pop up in the last five weeks of interviews which is that that thing you mentioned of focusing on the emotion that the images make is definitely

definitely something that I've been thinking about a lot recently and trusting your feelings when it comes to an image or the story you're trying to portray as opposed to what might be quote unquote technically correct. Oh, we're, you know, three point lighting being the classic one. Oh, it's not three point. You know, I don't know if anyone does that anymore, but certainly in film school. But just, you know, looking at the text and then going like, yes, we should have a big soft key light, but that's not technically correct here.

So, you know, going with feeling. Absolutely. And finding far more important. Absolutely. I truly think that that is one of the most critical things, you know, going with your gut, going with feeling, going with what feels right. And just following those instincts for sure, you know. I remember, you know, early on there was like a little short that I shot.

and there was an intimate moment at a bar between two two characters and they were having a really deep conversation and I single point lighting and just layering the background with elements of light so there's a nice shape behind them no back light and then on the opposite side just complete darkness negative fill so one side of their face just kind of falls into complete darkness now my gaffer he comes up and he goes hey man do you want like a balance in there you know Do you want us to lift that up? And I was like, no, this is perfect. This is exactly the mood that I'm trying to elicit here.

And he goes, yeah, but you know, you look at the information. Look at the false color. Look at this. There's just nothing there. You can't retrieve any of that back. And I go, that's okay. This is like, this is the mood. This is the intention.

This is what we're trying to say and what the scene calls for. And it's just an example of like, you know, go with what you feel. and sometimes people will question you and they'll bring things up. And it's okay to be questioned. I welcome that actually, because through people questioning your decisions, sometimes you'll start to see things

that maybe you haven't seen and maybe it'll enhance the moment. So I think it's important to embrace those questions, remove ego and just listen to these opinions, but stick with what you think is right and feels right and true to the moment. story. Yeah, you know, the last interview I did with Jaime Renoso had a quote towards the end where he was saying that it's, you know, it's good to be the person who feels at home places, but it's

even better to be the person who feels like a visitor every time to always come in with fresh eyes and to always think of, you know, because maybe that guy comes up to you and goes like, hey, you've got nothing in the waveform. And you go, oh, shit, no, I actually did want something in there, you know, or maybe not. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's, that's the point, too. It's like, you know, listening to these voices and seeing their perspective, but also, you know, and just staying true to yourself for sure. Yeah. That is also, there is precedent for your move, too, which is obviously the Godfather where

Gordon Willis was just like, I'm not giving them shit in the edit. It is, that black is black. There's no coming back from this. Nice. Yeah. Oh, man. Gordon Lewis. I just saw that.

They just did the Godfather 50th anniversary release and I got to see it in the Dolby. theater and uh still holds up uh great imagine that um you know i've i've kept you a little over the hour so i'll let you go but we uh we like to end the the podcast with the same two general questions um one the first one being uh is there a quote or um a piece of advice or or just kind of a phrase maybe that's bounced around in your head um that stuck with you throughout your career at all? Absolutely. I think for me and the philosophy that I, you know, take day to day is to completely remove ego within the process, you know, remove ego and just embrace other people's ideas, embrace, you know, like we were touching before, embrace these questions on your choices,

on your craft, be open to new ideas, be open to new people, you know, and constantly be a student, you know, constantly learn, look to learn and look to improve and, you know, and ingests as much art and film and different as, you know, different, you know, platforms as you can. Yeah, I'm just kind of going off, but really truly is just, it's just removing the ego, kind of always being a student, and being in a position to learn and improve is, like, the thing that I really focus on, because I think that'll help me to just get better every time, you know. Yeah. Plus learning's fun.

It sucks being the person who knows everything. It's horrible. It's a horrible feeling. Yeah. I don't pretend to be that person because, in fact, it's true, I don't know everything. And I lean on my collaborators and the people around me to kind of help me, you know, help me and contribute to making the image a better version of what I could ever, like, you know, think of you know so whether it's my key grip or my gaffer and I'll express an idea to them

or a feeling and then they they contribute on top of that too and now someone else contributes on top of that and now all of a sudden we have this this beautiful collaboration and and I think the end result would be much better for it you know there's some folks that are just like so no this is what I want I don't want to hear anything and I don't know it's just not the way I like to work yeah and we've said this before and a few of the past podcast recently but but that collaboration, that team problem solving is very addictive. It feels good for all of you all to be like aimed at a problem like that. Second question.

Your film is in a double feature. You're programming the second film. What is it? Repeat that question? So if your movie's in a double feature, what's the other movie? I would say probably, and it might be biased because I really like this filmmaker and the choices he makes, probably cachet by Michael Hanneke. Okay.

Yeah, I think that what's great about Michael Hanuket that Moe McRae shares is that there are deliberate choices in what they do, you know, you look at these, films and you look at these filmmakers and you can see the voice behind the choices. You know, you can see their personality a little bit. You can see their artistry. And I think that's really special. I love that. I love watching a film and looking at bizarre, you know, not very traditional choices and just feeling, wow, like I respect that. I feel that. Like, and Michael Hannah Hanukay does that really well where you would think that he would take a traditional approach on photographing the scene, constructing a scene, and it's just completely, you know,

untraditional, I guess. And Mo does that really well, too, where, you know, he would, you know, just look for ways to introduce his philosophy and his voice into filmmaking. And I, and I love that. Yeah. Well, that's, that's awesome, man. Well, like I said, the, the film is fantastic. I'm sure they're going to fucking love it over at Southby. And I wish you all the best. Next time you do something, please come back and we'll talk about that. Oh, I'd love to. That'd be great.

Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R mat box logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro VideoCoalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.