Frame & Reference Podcast - 56: "American Underdog" DP Kristopher Kimlin

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

On todays episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Kristopher Kimlin about the the film "American Underdog." The film tells the story of NFL MVP and Hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner, who went from stocking shelves at a supermarket to becoming an American Football star. Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Christopher Kimlin, the director of American Underdog, the Kurt Warner story, which is actually a much more fascinating story than I thought. I'm not really a football fan, but I did live in Arizona during Kurt Warner's time. And I didn't know all of that stuff about him. And I will let you discover what that stuff is. Me and Chris had a really, really fun conversation. You know, it felt like I was just talking to one of my old friends almost immediately. So, you know, we go through all the old fun friend chats that if you've listened to this podcast a lot, you'll recognize, you know, talking about special features and goofy stuff.

stories. And Chris also has a lot of really good tips. A lot of great DP tips that he's acquired over the years. And especially, he used to work in live sports. So some good advice and sort of stories from that as well. Yeah, I think you guys are going to love this one. Like I said, we have a ton of fun. So I think you're going to have a ton of fun. So I will just let you get to it. Here is my conversation with Christopher Kimlin. What initially got you into film, not necessarily like cinematography's career, but like where, you know, was it the childhood, you know, always went to the movies type thing or did you come to it later? E.T. was the thing that launched me into all things movies when I was a kid. I saw that movie and I wanted to be Elliott. It's transformed me in a way that I've never felt. I'd never felt up to that point as a kid. And since. then not effectively

in the way that that movie transforms me every time I watch. I'm a puddle in tears at the end. I still feel the exact same way when I watch it. I felt like I could be Elliott. I felt like I could open my closet and I had a stuffed animal collection. I don't

remember why. My grandmother loved buying stuffed animals. I remember that moment in the movie when he opens up. It's actually the mother that opens it up and ET is hidden within the stuffed animals. animals, right? And she doesn't see him closes. That, to me, I felt like I could go to my closet because it was fashion in a very similar way, open my closet. And there could be my imaginary friend, you know, whatever that looked like when I was that age. And E.T. just had that. And I remember watching that movie and thinking, there's kids that make movies. And that's so, that's so strange to me. How the hell did he do that, right? I could look. And so I would memorize.

the entire movie my poor grandmother god rest her soul she would sit and sit down in her chair and for two hours i would recite every single every single line of dialogue um and i was pretty good at all and then i would i would also like an ad reading the action in a script table read i would tell her about what was happening and then make all the noises and everything um like even et when he was running through the woods and that type of noise i would act all that out and She would just love it every single time, and I watched it so many times. So that was the moment that I knew I wanted to do something in movies. If there was an avenue for making magic and to feel that same type of feeling, that was it.

And still to this day, when I get up and I'm on a job, it doesn't matter if it's shooting interviews or if it's shooting a major motion picture, I feel that. feeling and I know that that's that's the reason why I'm here on this earth that what I'm supposed to be doing and it's gone through different forms of facets I've had many different roles in this in this crazy business but but I still feel that when I get up and I know it'll be time to stop when I don't so yeah how how deep into the like behind the scene stuff did you start researching as you got older and like we're capable well it wasn't available back that you know that was before the internet and you know it was like if you

I had the books, I could tell you that much. Like Star Wars, I had, I had Star Wars books that my mom bought me and it gave like behind the scenes looks. There was ET books that I found, you know, but they didn't, you know, VHSs didn't have special features. I remember the first time I saw The Matrix was the first time. I think I, this may not be accurate, but it's the first time vividly I remember watching something on DVD.

My mother was actually getting an edit done. for my dad's, like, 40th birthday. And we went to this little editing house in Greenville, South Carolina. Greg Grom was his name. I ended up working with him years later, which was like, I was like, man, this is like full circle. It's the first time I saw post-production happening. But, you know, obviously he's going to doing this edit with all this, like, home footage.

You know, it was like a sit-in for a few hours. And he's like, hey, I have this DVD, the Matrix, you can watch it. And I watched it on his television. and then I watched the special features and that blew me away. I was like, am I supposed to be able to see this? Like, do they know that I'm watching like the behind the scenes?

Like, that's how they did the 360. So that was really when it really first. But as a kid, I had that stuff. But when that stuff became readily available as a teenager, I, we would have movie nights go to the movie store back when that was a thing. I know there's probably some people are like, what's a movie store?

It didn't just appear on your TV. I would go and I would, I would tell my parents, like, oh, we need to get this movie because of the behind this scenes. And they'd be like, but we don't want to watch behind the scenes. I'm going, no, we have to. We got to see this. I got to watch. I remember just taking that all in.

And then I don't know if you watched much MTV as a kid. I'm sure you did. They made a show called Making of the Video where they would do a behind the scenes look at music videos that were coming out on TRL or whatever. That show enamored me because it was. was like you could see so much into that world and I just I just took that all in and I still do like I still do it's it's mesmerizing I love listening commentaries and everything and then listen to podcasts like yours yeah plug no yeah that's that down to the matrix that's nearly what happened to me like I remember because I the reason I asked the ET question is because when I

saw the matrix and all the behind the scene stuff it felt this is what I miss about old special features is it really just felt like they were throwing it together like it was just someone with a handy cam going like so what are you doing and so it made it felt very uh approach like doable when you just saw this grainy handy cam footage of like you know keanu like having the the the pillars blow up around him and stuff right or or the uh the fx guys talking about the 360 yeah yeah with him this is wild did you did you know that john Toll shot the Jaws behind the scenes footage. It's all

shot on like 16 and like he directed and shot it and I'm like where is that footage? Where is that behind the scenes? Like that has got to be the most masterful behind the scenes that's ever been created. Like shooting at Ford Spielberg. I think I heard

it on like Deakin's podcast so you talked about it and I'm like you're just going to drop that and be like here's where you you can't, you never said where you can find it. It's not on the DVD. I've I've scoured the internet looking for it. So I want to know where that footage is. I have the 4k bluer. I have three, I have two copies of the 4K because an Amazon screw up. And then I have the Blu-ray and the DVD of Jaws. And it's not even like my favorite movie or anything. I just

happened to have all those. But I wonder if that's all the 4K. I need to find out. I just, I couldn't believe that when I heard it blew my line. Because that's like, so that's the thing that my like sort of pandemic thing was I just started buying up like criterion and just like 4Ks and anything I could because I was like I'm bored and I miss special features and they're still making them and while they're still making them I'm gonna buy my idea was we need to make a Netflix you me and all the other DPs need to get together I've run this by ASC members I've run this by

fucking everyone and they all agree we need a Netflix for special features because I bet the licensing is cheap Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's a brilliant idea. A whole special, yeah. And it's just making ofs and or like, obviously a big streamer could probably create a section, but I figure we keep this for us. And yeah, because I bet the licensing's cheap and you could like set it, make it so that you could watch the special features and then at the end or at the beginning or somehow it could be like, and this is where you can watch it. So you can go watch the phone afterwards and something like that. Because I'll do that sometimes. I'll do it the wrong way where I'll watch the special features.

and then watch the film. Dude, that is, bro, yeah, watching it in reverse or sometimes I'll watch the commentary before I've watched the movie, which is, that's really, that's like reading the book before watching the movie and you're like, you like the book more. But, man, that's such a great idea and why haven't they not, because you know what? Marketing people will be like, well, only the cinematographers will watch it. And I, that's why marketing people piss me off because that, like, that stuff was so valuable to me coming up.

Like, I watched that stuff, and I have a weird story about how I got into the industry, but like the first movie I ever worked on, I was in high school. I snuck on the set. And I was like, that is that thing that I saw on making of the video, right? And so then I was able to then put a name with that equipment. And then my first legit job, I was able to reference stuff that I probably, wouldn't have been able to reference had it not been for that alignment of seeing the technology being used and just going, that's cool to knowing the name of it very quickly and be able to

connect all the dots and kind of know what it was doing. I remember that like the first time I saw a soft box on a lift in my life. I remember seeing that and going, oh, that's a soft because I can reference it in like some limp biscuit behind the music or Britney Spears thing. And David LaChapelle was like, yeah, the softbox is where all the lights coming from. I'm like, don't know what a soft box is, but I'm going to remember it. Then I saw it. And I was like, oh, is that a soft box? I remember the key grip looking at me going, how the hell do you know what a soft box is?

You're a PA, right? And I'm like, yeah, Dave LaCappelle, he told me on making of the video. He told me directly. You know, for me, it was the zip light. I saw it somewhere, you know, behind the scenes thing. And I didn't know what the fuck that was because all the other lights looked the same. And then there was that thing. And I remember, I just remember going like, all right, if I ever run into a zip light, I know I've made it.

And the time I ran into a zip light was, let's say, 20 years later. And I was filming, this is a behind the scenes and the kind of jobs people get when you're starting out. I was filming a medical training video. I've done plenty of those. Yeah, there's like this office in like El Segundo or something. And it just looks like a regular office. But then on the first floor, there's an entire hospital set. And this guy was just married.

He's an older gentleman. And he was just married to a hospital and it has a set at the bottom. That's the most California. No, it's not a hospital. It's an office. It's an office building. Oh, oh. I thought you're saying it's a working.

I thought you're saying it was a working hospital. And they're like, yeah, but the first floor is a set. Yeah, don't take people into the first floor. No, it's just like a regular office building. And I was like, is this where, no worries. I was like, is this where we're really filming? He's like, yeah, there's, we go in. But this guy was like married to hotlights.

And I was like, okay. So I learned, you know, some stuff there. But then I saw the zip light hanging in the corner. I was like, oh. And I made a lot of it. I remember the, when me and the, the boys that did an underdog, we went to college together and they started up a company we'll start working together. Man, 2K Zip, I remember the first time I struck that thing and then

somebody put a muslin in front of it. We would hire this grip and put the muslin in front and it gave this warmth. And I was like, whoa, whoa, what? What did you do that? He was like, oh, that's muslin. And I was like, what is muslin? And I, the moment I started to use that, I never turned back. And that was the, it was because of a zip, that already beautiful. soft light, then through that muslin on this interview. And I was like, I've never seen a key light looks so beautiful. And that was my, that was my thing. I didn't know, I didn't know if I would ever find another light that would do the same thing. And then, then somebody was like, oh, we got a 2K open face. Let's just pop this into a bounce and through the muslin. And I was like,

what are these things you speak of? And they're like, oh, it's, it's like a book light. And I was like, what? And it changed my life. It changed my life. And then it all started like, it's coming together. And, man, Zips and 2K open faces may be still my favorite soft source lights. 2K open face, hitting, bouncing into something is my two favorite soft sources. And it's, you know, the LED game is incredible. But there is nothing like that red filament that's in those original hot, hot ass just tungsten lights, you know, that you can't. It, doesn't exist in the LED space. You can't recreate it. There's just this special rich texture to it. And thank God for Deacon's still using it. And so these guys, they're still, like, committed to utilizing hot lights to get their, get their images and get that beautiful texture on the face, that beautiful warmth. Yeah.

No, I keep it alive. I felt the same way until three days ago. Oh, yeah? So Cullen Kelly is a colorist and he's got a nice great YouTube channel if you're into over the pandemic, I became a colorist because I couldn't go anywhere. So I ended up so that's genius. That's genius. You know, like that's the one thing that like as a DP, you don't get to learn, right?

Like it's I still don't feel comfortable in a color suite because it's all these other things I watch other DPs do. I never sat in a color session with any DP or. anybody, but it's expected of you. And you're like, I don't know what to do with my hand. So I'm just sitting there. And I'm just like, I hope to God that this, I shot it as close to as I can get it in this process. And, you know, that's that weird thing. So kudos to you learning color. I'm, I'm far too lazy to, to take that dive. I mean, it's such a, that's such a science to me. But, you know, it's good on you. Well, the key is my, my, my, my, my four into life

Early in the, excuse me, in the late 90s, early 2000s, I played professional counterstrike, which for anyone listening, like literally the video game counterdick, you were a professional? Well, at the time, at the time we were like meeting at a Hyatt for like $200 bucks. You know, this was like, OG stuff, bro. That's OG stuff. You paid the way, bro. Ninja owes you.

Thank you. Thank you. You know what's funny? Well, that's going to be a long diatribe. I was shooting an e-sports thing, and I was just looking at it. They were playing Counterstrike, and I was just like, this is amazing. Like, I used to, this used to be fucking difficult to find anyone to do this. And now these guys are getting paid so much.

And there's this one dude. And I was like, bro, I recognize this guy. And I was like, hey, did you play like 1.5, 1.6 back to blah, blah, blah. And his name's nothing is, his gamer tags, nothing. And I was like, oh, we fucking, dude, I played you back in the day. And he was like, oh, all right, cool, man. What a reunion. Yeah, but, and he was still playing.

He still is playing. But, oh, so I started off as a. huge nerd. So like pivoting into color, especially when we were all kind of locked down and stuff, like I had, I had the mindset, I guess, or I have the mindset till I kind of dig into that. Plus, like, when I shoot stuff, for the longest time, it was just on the C-100 mark two. So I was really trying to get that to look a lot better, you know. But anyway, so Kieran, Cullen Kelly, colorist, great YouTube channel, great podcast. And on his podcast, he had Steve Yedlin. And Steve Yedlin, obviously, for anyone who knows him, is awesome. Super

knowledgeable about the imaging pipeline. And so they were talking about color. And I was like digging it. And I'm like, all right, yeah, because he helped explain a little bit of his, his like tech demos and stuff, which are kind of hard to parse out. But at one point, he got to LED lighting. And I was like, yeah, he's going to, he's going to mention how it's difficult to get. And then he was like, no, it's the same thing as the camera sensor. Like, if you have the correct coordinates, you can replicate any color. You got, basically he was just like,

you guys are just lazy and not doing it right. And I was like, no. I thought he was going to say tungsten was the best. And I, I think the bigger, fuck, I'm totally winging it now,

but I'm wondering if the bigger issue is output. Because the tungsten can be so strong and the spectrum is really full, right? Yeah. And I'm wondering if you have a full spectrum LED that just hauls ass and you're able to get whatever that color.

is right then then it would be close but i 70% of me still agrees with you that like tungsten is the way it's the red channel man it's there's something in it there's something in it that just produces produces that warmth i have but again i i have as as the deeper and deeper i get into cinematography i'm finding myself aligning myself with the script a lot more than the technical aspect as much. And that sounds so terrible. I'm always up on the technical, but I don't spend nearly as much time now looking into the color spectrum analysis of LED. I'm more, now I'm reading, you know, about story, right? Whether it's from Robert McKee to, you know, save the cat, and understanding characters and understanding the emotional,

the things that make people emotionally tick, you know, going back, reading Greek mythology and understanding the origins of story. Because, well, because it really, that should inform where I'm placing the camera. That shouldn't inform what I'm lighting. That should be the thing that really makes it tick. And for a long time, I was so worried about the technical, about the camera. I'm so worried about how to how to make it look pretty. And, you know, not to overuse, everybody's going to use Deacons for every reference.

But, I mean, he's just like the model of the guy who says, I'm going to find the beauty in the ugly. And I worked with this director, John Gunn, for this movie called Unbreakable Boy. That was our mantra. If people are laughing, if there's something funny, there's usually something sad as well. And if there's something sad, there's usually humorous moments. And if there's something beautiful, there's something ugly. And if there's something ugly, there's something beautiful. And if you can find that contrast, it finds moments.

That's what makes. That's what should form your photography decision. And it took me years and years and years of failing and not knowing why I was failing and why people would be like, uh, the photography really didn't, I mean, it looked really pretty and, and, and, but I didn't get a substantial feeling from the frame. And I was just screwing up. I didn't even know because I felt like all I need to know is I need to know every name of every light.

So I could tell the gaffer exactly what to put there so that he walks away and going, damn, that guy's a DP, man. He's really smart. Yeah. And now it's like, I don't care what you use. Here's the emotional value that I want out of it because that's what we're going for. And if you've got a better way to do it, you're the one doing like my gaffer, Andy Lorenz, who has been my longtime gaffer.

and we did Underdog together and a slew of other movies he works on all these Marvel movies with a crew in Atlanta he sees stuff that I'll never see right like I'm realizing now with the landscape of like movies and stuff like that I'm not making Marvel movies

if I did whoa that'd be awesome but I'm not making Marvel movies so they're doing stuff that I like I get giddy when he sends me a text knowing I'm never touching that right that thing's incredible incredible. He sees all that stuff. He knows everything that it does way more than I can. And when he comes and plays with me, I just say, just take the techniques that you've learned

and just know that this moment, when I go in on this face, one, we can't distract from the moment. So don't make this about the lighting. But at the same time, we got to capture some magic in those eyes, right? And just lead everything to that point, you know, whether that's soft or hard, And we talk about that stuff a lot. But it's all emotional based now. It's all based off the story for me. And I love talking to tech, but I have really gravitated away from focusing so much on that. I want to be able to walk in and assist the director as his best friend and understanding

how to best get the emotional response out of the audience that we possibly can. And that, and I've never talked with the director about the, the red channel in LEB lights. Right. Well, that's like, that's also the path, especially in modern times, that's like the path of any sort of creative, right, as you focus on the tools until the tools disappear. And then you realize you have a canvas and you're like, oh, shit, I guess they should paint. I mean, Nomad Land is a perfect example of a movie that takes you so deep emotionally and it is

not about the photography whatsoever. And there are, there's beautiful frames all over that movie. but it is not about that and the camera the camera is us and i've never like there's very few movies i can say where i feel feel like it was me you know like i'm just there another one was the lighthouse and that's on the total opposite spectrum of something very composed very tablo you know black and white non-existent of color but you feel like you are shoved in that lifehouse with those two men losing their minds and you are losing your mind at the end of it i'm like I'm almost exhausted but I'm like damn that was really good and I felt like I was there

and that's a focus on story and character yeah yeah which I love well it's funny that you brought up a sort of contrast too because that's the whole game of cinematography right is we you don't want to flatlight someone and I always think in analogies like that's just the way I learn I guess and that's the same thing like that's how I started thinking like oh you got a everything is a juxtaposition or else like you can't you cannot have dark without light like physically you can it's it's just that's how nature works and that's how everything works like you can't it's not a high note if it's always 100% you know right you need you need the the low notes to shape and form that yeah it's it's it's all about contrast um yeah for the the book that i read that

I remember, like, got me sort of like broke down story in a really easy way for me, which is hilarious, is Aristotle's Poetics. Yeah, 100%. That's the origin of all this stuff, man. Yeah. You got to go back to the source code. You got to go back to the originating material. And once you start digging into that, you're like, so that's where all this came from.

You know, and they, you know, that's really where it's laid out on the table for you. And it seems arduous before you do it. but then when you're finished you're like wow that just informed so much of everything that i gravitate to everything that i love to watch or that i feed into emotionally that that's where it all came from it's like a roadmap that road map that road map exists for us it's there you just got to find and you got to read it yeah the uh it's something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast but i think going from technical to feeling is the most like i've that word specifically I've been like we a lot of films are very technical and not they don't go off feeling and you can always tell when a film is made to feel correct like they didn't look at charts they didn't like it's not like oh that we need to do I've used this joke before but it's like you know wide over over coverage like no like you can tell when there's a checklist and you can tell when they're like well this is where it should be and this is where the light should be because it feels right and they don't consult the checklist.

I get worried about coverage, too. Coverage is such a, that is such a thing to tackle is like getting out of that mode of over, over, you know, wide, over, close up, close up. And, you know, like some of the directors that I've worked for, you know, especially like the Irwin's that we've worked together forever, you know, a little more classical in their coverage approach and that's what they like for for their their films but finding angles that tell the story um really takes an effort of saying like pushing off coverage and saying i'm not doing this thing and while doing that you're still hit with all the pressures and all the rigors of producers

time money and all those things the easiest thing to do is to put that camera over the shoulder it like even to the point of like eyelines right making eyelines work is when you shoot singles, it's, you know, obviously it's all where they're looking. So always lining it up over the shoulder is just the easy way of knowing that you're nailing, right? And to go, no, we're not doing that. And then to be able to be, it takes a risk on the director's part. And I love writer directors. I love the editor director is the one that kind of tosses me, the one that has spent more time in the editing suite. Because what they're doing is, oh, I know that if I get this, I've got it, right?

Whereas, and then there's also a pacing issue. They want to talk about pacing. Well, if I don't get this, I can't cut it as pacing. And then they don't like to take the risk of just living in a moment as much as maybe I like to. So there's that constant like, you know, and then I think a lot of that stuff gets solved if you have enough prep time. But you're always up against not having enough prep time. So it's that constant battle of making sure that the outside, outside. of the director of DP unit is not affecting you and forcing you into those moments where

it's like, oh, we got our wide, okay, medium, close up, close up, right? We're over over and like, hey, let's, I know that we can get that and it's really like that that will solve it for you, but let's put the camera over here because this profile is really magnetic and it's two people facing off and that's perfect for this scene because this emotional trigger works here because that's the beat of the script right and just only and that's why for me pulling away from the technical pushing more in a story i have to be able to explain that to the director much more than you know the lighting so let the let the gaffer do that job um and i'll just inform them off of off of the emotional trigger that we're going yeah the i've always said that

being an editor has made me a better D.P. 100%. But I could see how having an editor director would be kind of, that's not, that's, I mean, it's the same problem with being a DP Gaffer. It's like that you're two,

that's two brains that need to be separate for this to work out. And that's, and at this level of cinematography that I'm doing, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm still dabbling in, I've done scale movies,

but I'm still doing, going tier one, tier two, and tier threes, when you get to tier one, a lot of the directors are being hired because of the money situation are editors or have been editors, and that's where they're pulling from. And they're great. Like, it is a great value for pacing and things like that, but it does. It can inform the photography very easily because the director feels comfortable about shooting just an over-the-shoulder. And, you know, that's maybe not the most appropriate um coverage for that moment let's think outside of the box let's tell the story with the lens not necessarily tell the story of the ease of comfortability of editing and piecing it

together you know but on another podcast with an editor they're sitting there you know i really fucking hate it when the dp comes in they're just so concerned about getting their other angle for coverage and man all you need is we just need to get to the faces yeah yeah um i mean shit I you know everyone likes to Tute Finchristhorn certainly I do but he's kind of the king of like none of his frames are like interesting necessarily they're all very kind of

workman like he does he finds he finds this thing with mundane that really works and I think it's obviously his knowledge of his story and the script and his the thing I love about him is how heavily he's not the writer director but he's the story director and he's so heavily

involved in the writing process. Yeah, he really is and full control. And I'm sure, you know, I, you know, I just remember watching this podcast with Eric Magist Schmidt, I think is awesome. And I love like his story coming up from being a gaffer. And every single interview I saw Fincher was with him. And I was like, damn, does this guy want so much control? He can't even let Eric just do an interview by himself. And I'm sure it's not that way at all. but that was my, my, my uninformed perspective of it all. And I'm just like, I just want to hear from Eric. Fincher, we know you're great.

We know you know visuals. Could you just let the guy do what he does? I think, I think that's too full because I'm pretty sure I watched every. I was supposed to interview Eric forever ago. And then he, once he stopped, he was doing press for Mank and then immediately jumped on another film. And so I, the time was lost. But I was watching everything. And I, my, I don't want to say educated guests, but my, my researched guest,

is more that, A, Mank was a sort of a passion project for Fincher because his dad wrote it. Right. Yeah. But also, I get the feeling that when you're on one of his films, you're not doing a traditional DP role. He sees the film in his head and you're facilitating that in a way that I think Eric probably got to the point where he was like, I'm just saying it all comes down to David so much that. we should just have him on you know but he's so talented the guy is so talented oh he's good what a cool experience to do a fincher film like i'm i certainly can't sit over here and be like yeah i wouldn't want to work in that situation but i i think it's notoriously hard i hear it's

notoriously hard um because because he's so but it's all but here's the thing again what makes it makes him so special is it's all from a place of story and character um and the technical which is ironic because he's such a technically minded guy like he holds such technical value like even to the point of he doesn't use a steady cam it's all off dolly and he knows how to manipulate everything and then the VFX putting

not bringing in certain elements that are going to throw his day off or throw the actors off because he can replace them like that's a mass technical knowledge that you need to have and he owns that company that does all the VFX but like having all that it still feels like he never leads on that that's pushed to the side that's that's over there i'll deal with that the only thing i'm worried about is performance these characters performance and and and the story that's it and kudos to him for doing that that's why his movies are so great yeah the technical allows for them to take from what i've

heard is like the reason that they're so uh technical is to allow for the most time possible for the actors to act. He's like, we don't just get the boom in there. I'll cut it out. We have split comps. Like, get the good audio, let them act. And there's part of me that's like, man, that's so wonderful. But at the same time, it's like, I mean, I know, I know it was very tough for me with Irwins on, we did this movie Woodlawn where it was, John is a very visual, sensible director. And he's been involved heavily. He's the DP himself. And so he is very much individuals but they they so that was like here's the keys of the kingdom you like you are the dp you take care of everything right and i was making all the choices from lenses to camera placement

and i could just feel john's itch and that's how he communicates with this brother he likes to operate as well and so we had this like really frustrating go at it because i wanted to protect the image so much that and i was so arrogant about it this was like a big learning experience for me I was so arrogant about it that I would throw things out of focus if I saw equipment and stuff like that. And there were moments that were missed that were not as important. The fact that there was a C-stand in the frame, one, could be painted it out if they wanted to. But two, the performance is so good, you don't even notice that in the background. And that was a really hard thing to tackle hearing from the director who was also, you know, we went to each other's weddings type of thing.

So, you know, taking that value, and that was at that point in my career where I thought that, you know, one, Woodlawn was going to, that was my platform. And from then on, like, all I had to worry about was how many Oscars they were going to hand me, right? That's how arrogant in my brain I was about it. And nobody could tell me any different. And then I watched the movie, and the movie's great. But there's these moments that I know happened that I took. took away from the director and that was wounding to me and also wounding to them and it was a that was an amazing learning moment I hate that it happened on such a big stage but for me that was

when I was like stop worrying about trying to be the guy stop trying to worry about being the DP like the respected director of photography um screw that get in the story love it for what it was love it for being ET all over again right and that's the thing that that that changed me there. And it was like, I'm, I'm, I'm here to work for the director. I'm not here to work for myself. Nobody's going to this movie because of some attour, like shooting that I did, which is bullshit anyway.

So once I got that through my brain, that's when everything kind of changed for me. Well, and I, and. I was going to say that people only really look up the cinematographer if it's amazing. If it sucks, they just go out of that movie sucked. so you have kind of that like yeah you're good I don't know a person in my life that goes I'm going to go see this movie

in theater because of cinematography aside from 1917 yeah and there's an argument to be made that that movie is not good if you edit right if it's anything other than what it is which is brilliant on Sam Mendez's part I'm not I'm not digging at his work

but yeah you know what I just saw gravity for the first time last, two nights ago. And I was like, this is 1917 in space. It is. But Lexky was doing it way before everybody else. You had mentioned that you came up with your friends from college. What was that like?

Because a lot of people don't get to sort of continue their career with the people that they learned with. Yeah, it's funny. I think that the most successful relationships in this business are the ones that you've kept on for a long time. for instance, you start reading the stories of Adam Sandler, of actors primarily and how they kind of came up together and they fed off each other and kept working with each other. I went to school in upstate New York. That's where I met them at a small Christian college up there.

And we were making camp videos, right? I remember the first time that I ever got it. It was a GL-1 and it was put in my hands because John had directed this camp video that takes place in this like, little western village and there was um he needed uh there was a line that needed to be said and the we had like wad shotguns like very dangerous and stupid for that to give give them to us uh in hindsight uh but this plotted shotgun and the guy shot it and it jumped his it jumped his

line and then he like had a weird reaction so john said i just want you to get the line of dialogue and then i'll cut into a wider shot where he shoots it and we can use the footage, but I need that dialogue. So he gave it to me, and I thought, here's an opportunity to direct. I've never done this before. So I went out there, set up the camera, and I thought, I talked this guy through, like, award-winning performance, and I brought it back. And I go, this is the best stuff you're ever going to, like, this is going to be the best

stuff you've ever seen. And so he uploads it into the, yeah, put it on your seatbelt. This monologue's going to blow you away. And so he puts it in, you know, this is the mini-d-veevalued. deck he puts it in and it's completely blown out. This is very hard for me to tell this story because as a DP, the first thing I ever shot

as the DP, if you will, was totally blown out. He was like, I wouldn't know if this performance was any good because I can't see anything. You're like four stops over. He's like, could you just could you go back and shoot it again? So I had to do a reshoot of a reshoot. And so went back and

exposed it properly. But that it really, you know, I loved working with them. only other experience at that point was this movie called Finding Jack Kerouac. That was the first time I looked through a camera. It was a 4-16. It was this movie that I stuck onto. And I remember looking through the camera and seeing a different point of view that I'd never seen before. And I was like, this is power. I don't know what this is. I could hear the film clicking when they rolled it and I could see the image. And there was just this, just through that eyepiece. And then John afforded

me the ability to do that again. And back then it was, you know, it was camp videos, weddings. I moved to Alabama with them. They're from Alabama. We moved to Alabama. We made wedding videos together. But I cut my teeth on storytelling because we wanted to, I was editing those pieces that I was shooting.

And like you said, being the editor made me such a better shooter. And then from there, you know, I was living. We all shared a house together. They worked for ESPN. I went and pulled the cable behind Andy, the other brother, who was a handheld operator on the sidelines. And so I pulled that cable and I'd get another job. And I remember getting a job on the sidelines. And the camera operator goes down, he got hit.

And he was like, dude, pick up that camera and shoot. I don't know if they can ever use your stuff, but pick up the camera and go shoot and all the best of luck. And that led to more work in sports. But then it would come back and they would be shooting documentary work. as their career progressed, you know, weddings to like corporate documentaries, which were a big thing, corporate videos, as, you know, the zip days. And, you know, you did that. And it would, and then I would have this new sensibility, what I call a fast twitch muscle

that I would get from shooting live sports that I would implement into documentary work and living outside of the eyepiece, which I'll inform you in a minute what I need by that. But as they grew up, then it moved to music videos. And then I got this, like, itch to light, right? I really, like, I was operating, but I was like, why does my stuff look so much different? It's the lighting, right? And so learning to light. So I became their gaffer for, we did 72 music videos in a span of two years from Christian artists to country artists to pop artists, like no names.

Not like I was on Dave La Chappelle videos on making the video. right so you know as i learned as they excelled i excelled in different areas i became an ad at one point and decided that i didn't want to kill myself so i left that you know i because it was just awful but all of that culminated to all of those those experiences culminated to john was doing a music video i joined him and the key grip i was gaffing the key grip looked at me he was like like, hey, man, you're, you're like operating because it's operating, you're operating and you're lighting, and you choose the lenses. So I'm just trying to understand why you're not the DP. I was like, oh, yeah, I mean, I just do it. I'm just the gaffer, whatever. He was like,

just to let you know, that that's like a different position and you should probably do that. Also, there's a pay bump to that too. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I make good money as a gaffer. he's like, no, no, no, I'd like to say that's a significant pay bump for you. And I was like, oh, so I just went up to John. And I was like, hey, from this point forward, I'm the DP. And John was like, oh, okay, cool. Awesome. And so, yeah, and so we just worked together on that and that, that became our working routine. And then I was able to branch out from there.

But the reason why that was so special, specifically getting long-winned answer to your question, having that friendship, we grew together. And it gave me the same platform that a film school had given me in the sense of trying different things out, failing at them. But I was still getting paid to do it, minutely, by the way, but enough to live. you know and as they grew I grew with them and then all the different opportunities that we had informed who I was as a DP and to get to that fast which must a lot of guys you know close their eyes when they look through the eyepiece or they put it on the left eye that's the narrative format but because I grew up in the sports world you didn't know if football was coming at you if you're down the third baseline on baseball you didn't know if you're going to get a wild

ball coming at you, coming at you, basketball, if you're underneath the goal, you know what you could be missed. You always lived outside of your eyepiece. That's what I was taught. Always keep your eye open. Always kind of keep the image in the peripheral. Cinema obviously is much more of a curated image. So that's where the focus is. But what I've learned is being able to live outside that eyepiece, I just want an actor is doing something else. Or when they're feeding a bit of emotion back, maybe at a time where we would miss it because the camera's settled on this one person. And having that ability to, you know, in sports, you always had to get the camera as gingerly

as possible over to capture something that was happening to inform the audience. And so now I look at that as an opportunity to inform the audience. And that came through the doc documentary and live sports experience of being able to live outside of that kind of narrative bubble that we can put ourselves into. And now it's informed the way I operate as a DP and looking for the moments that are being sold outside of just where the lenses because sometimes those are magical. When you have kids on set, for instance, they're doing things that may be just, that's the magic that the director needs. And it's the times when I roll the camera, the director didn't know, they come back to me at the end of the movie, either at the premiere or down the road, they'll send a note and they'll be like, do this moment that you capture. I didn't even know you went after, that saved me in editing.

That's the emotional beat. He got the emotional beat. And that's the stuff that's really important to me. I love when you can capture that. It's just living outside the lens. And it came from those guys, being coming up a route that was very unorthodox, that was very, you know, not film school, right? And just guys just finding it and doing it because they loved it.

I've talked to a handful of documentary DPs and the ones that have kind of switched over to narrative, I've noticed that they've mentioned that sort of, I guess, confidence that documentary has given them because they were forced to look for those moments. So when it's scripted, they're like, okay, there it is. But then they can always, they always seem to be able to tell, you know, or angles specifically, you know, just like finding those times. I agree. I agree. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, I think that that's the thing that I offer. That's what I try to explain is is, you know, if people are looking for that thing that's different, I would say, just bringing that sensibility of being able to notice things a little bit more free-flowing than maybe

some narrative folks. Not that I really, I mean, I hate that question. Like, I've had that question a couple times. What do you bring that's different? I'm like, I hire really well. That's what I do. So if you're really into the DP that hires guys really well, other than the things that you can see that I do then um that's the thing you can you can take that to the presses during your

your press run um that that that's what I do as I hire while I trust certain people I see something in but um yeah no it's it's just that that's it is a comfortability that's a good that's a good way of like um you know you're you're more comfortable with the camera the camera is almost more of an extension of you and your sensibilities um than anything else um and you're able to to kind to navigate those waters a bit better. And when you do it, I remember operating on a movie for Michael Nagrin, there's an ASCDP, his, I think his dad shot second unit on Godfather, stuff like that, like, you know, one of these guys.

And we were shooting this period piece, and I would just go find these shots and make them work. And he was like, I don't think I've ever experienced. He goes, you give me so, oh, I just put like a little entry into the, the scene in some way, shape, or form. And my AC that I've worked with forever, Diego Montiel, he and I would coordinate these things that made value out of the B camera a lot more. And he was like, man, you always gave me an intro and an outro to something.

And I never had to inform you. And I'm just thinking to myself, like, yeah, how do you get in and out of these scenes? So I might as well give you a show. Like, it's no science. There's no, like, earth-shattering thing to it. It was just out of the necessity of my own, like, at least give you guys something to come off of or work off of. And I think the comfortability came with not feeling like it was that rigid, like composed thing about movies that we're so used to of just going, okay, I can come into this a little bit more. And he gave me that opportunity.

And it was, I mean, a lot easier for B camera than A camera. So, but yeah, it's a comfortability. It's a fast twitch muscle. you just find it different it comes from a different place it's a different type of training i would never take a cinema operator and throw them into the super bowl you know that would be a nightmare for them oh my god wait is this did we rehearse this throw because i you know that's that's just the way it goes those like uh the the ability for a lot of football dps to like zoom in on the ball and then widen out right before it gets caught is impressive

It's all timing, bro. It's absolutely all timing. And I learned from the best in the world. His name is Tim 2. This guy is a guy that you'll never read about in ASC magazine or anything like that. But every epic tight spiral football you've seen from the biggest games in history. I remember he did the NBA finals years ago. It was the heat and it was heat cavaliers.

And there's this guy's incredible. the basketball was tossed up into the air and it was there was he was just like mush in the background and the ball comes up and it's super slow moan the ball is spinning and he pulls focus and it's not like he's got an AC this is all just to him he pulls focus the whole ball is filling the frame he pulls focus to the ball fingertips come up and he follows that ball into the hands of Dwayne Wade and follow follows him down and just pulls out of the perfect time and he starts dribbling ball and walks out a frame. And I was just like, how in the world do you procure that shot? It's unbelievable. And then there's another friend of mine, Shane Marshall, if you're on Instagram, it's making

the rounds of NBA. Like it's on film lights or camera something or other, whatever those accounts are. It's frustrating to me because they don't tag him in it. And I'm like, I'm like his his agent going right you need to tag Shane in this because it's him mid basketball falling these guys taking shots and putting and he just goes tight spire on the ball and it's all about timing when it comes out just enough to hit the net and give that beautiful beautiful swoosh that we're so accustomed to but it's such a it's such a prepared like you have to learn that stuff and man it's amazing to watch those guys do it I I spent many a years doing it and I loved it

but man those guys they are the best in the world they are the best in the world and that's why they're doing super bowls and NBA finals it's incredible yeah yeah earlier you had mentioned like getting a good in and out uh can you maybe give people an example of what that might look like sure it's the best way to the best way to put this is utilize the whole entire set so um as a b operator and i and i do need to preface that i wasn't the a operator a operator A operator, obviously, is much more rehearsed in that sense. In that sense, all I got to do is take my sensibilities and add them in. But I used the whole entire set.

So if I, I knew where I needed to end up in the frame. But I also knew that I had the option of using like an extra using them as a pass. So I would go inform the extra, hey, if you could pick up this prop over here and just take that. And as you walk by, you're going to push my camera into the scene. that really helped me out. And there's so much that a DPS to worry about with two cameras, or multiple cameras, that that stuff is the stuff that I feel when I'm doing it.

I kind of forget about or don't have time to plan as much as when I'm focused on specific Dolly move. So I would just add that into the mix, or I would talk to Diego and go, and then if nothing else, let's just roll into focus here. And then on the out, you know, is saying, I know what a camera's shooting. But here's the thing.

There's a perspective over here in this other actor's face that I could go get. And I know that we're shooting two angles of this actor. But as we get to the end of the dialogue, I know that this dolly push is what's going to be in the movie. So why don't I wing a little left here as long as it doesn't mess up the lighting, wing a little left here on this guy's face and just grab his reaction as an outro. And it takes a confident DP. And Michael is that through and through to know that maybe it's not the, he's not getting this actor over here is not getting the full force of the beautiful key light that's been

set for the actor on A camera, but it's enough. It's just a moment, right? And I think that there's a certain level of arrogance that you push to the side to say, I'm okay with this because it makes the movie better. That reaction is worth it in that moment to maybe it's not as curated. And there's movies that need to be curated. that in that fashion. And they're all shot by Paul Thomas Sanderson. And that's fine. And that's fine. And I think that there's a lot of value to that. And those people are amazing. And I love

the work that they do. But in my job in that case was to give him an in and an out, I felt, and find something that maybe he wasn't able to see in the moment. And also help them move forward. And there was a great deal of thanks for that. And I just remember, and that's now what I say to my operators like don't don't violate the line of action or don't um you know don't if you know when it looks bad right if it's not lit don't shoot at it but you have the freedom to move within this frame and get me interesting stuff and sometimes the best thing is what is is if it's a nervous tick of a character and it's and it's tilting down to grab the hand on a knee that's shaking a foot moving maybe you know they're moving their palms stuff like that

go find that stuff because that's the stuff again the directors will go and that really assisted it gave me it gave me a way to an option to cut away but still tell the story so i you know i want my guys and i hire a lot of like for the football movie i hired sports camera operators i hired NFL films guys my steady cam operator is the monday night football steady cam operator clay love us and so why because i want that reactionary timing you know he also does movies with me but he also has this reactionary timing on the field. He knows what the play looks like and how it develops because he's watching the best in the world do it.

And so he knows how to frame for that stuff. So I just tell him like, instead of center punching, give me that cinematic look, maybe give me a little bit different of a frame. And yeah, sometimes I get more of a center punch look out of it. But he tells the story because he used to tell him the story for a director,

week and week out when it comes to that. I have NFL film guys out of somebody mine come out, operate a fourth camera in Dallas. and it just he understands how to capture that tight spiral look right and that's that's more important for me for the story and that reactionary timing and what to look for in a football movie say then for me to try to compose all those angles what you can give as an operator to a DP when you kind of think outside of the box really helps in the editorial process well and it's got that's a great transition into talking about the film but that's

what makes people think it's real is if it reminds them of what they see every weekend. That's right. That's right. What's funny is I, so I went to school, I went to college in Arizona. And so when I heard they were making a Kurt Warner movie, I was like, why? Like I had no idea. I had no idea about his life. I just knew he was the fucking quarterback.

And I was like, all right. But his life was intense. It's so intense. The only reason I remember is because I was shooting sports at the time. And I remember people talking about the guy that was bagging groceries. Like, I would say I was shooting sports, but like that became, I knew that story because we talked about that story when I started shooting sports, I could say, because it didn't really happen.

But when I would do NFL games and they would talk about Kurt Warner, they would talk about the guy bagging groceries. And I thought, man, one day they're going to make a movie about that guy. And then I ended up shooting it. It was super strange to me. But it was so weird to see how many people. on Twitter and stuff like that. You're like, why are they making a movie about Kurt Warner?

Who cares? Like, what's so great about his life? And I'm like, wait, do you guys not know about like what he went through to get to where he is? And they didn't. And that's what's so special about you get to see the story because it really is an intense life. A lot of, he really was an underdog.

Like, it really was. Yeah. Well, in my defense, I don't watch football. So. And that's okay. But see, that's what I love about the movie is it's really, you know, the last 20 minutes are where the football shines, if you will. But you have to earn that.

You have to earn that. And the movie is really about relationship and overcoming great deal of odds on both sides, even with Brenda, his wife, who really is like the champion character, in my opinion. Like she went through the most, even more so like Kurt. But she really supported Kurt so much out of love. Like not not out of like that weird thing of like, oh, I just have to support my husband. But that woman is a steelworker. Like she shaped metal with her hands.

Like she's badass. Brenda is one of the most badass woman I've ever, ever encountered. She did that. That was like a humbling support because she knew that he had such a passion. And she wanted that for him because she understood what it took for him to get there. And that, that to me is what makes that character so special is not, not like a, not like, oh, I have to do this for him. was, I want you to do this because I've seen the work that you put in. And I know what hard work looks like.

I was a Marine, right? She was. And that's what's special. That's what makes the character. And that's what I love about the movie. It's not about football. It's about an incredible relationship where people sacrifice for the passions of each other, really.

You know, Kurt really sacrificing and taking on her son, Zach, who was blind and suffered for many ailments. And they had that wonderful organization taking it. takes care of adults with the same elements. It's an incredible story of passionate people wanting to achieve great things and supporting each other in that process. Yeah. And then you get 20 minutes of fucking awesome football in my opinion.

What, this wasn't a pandemic project, was it? We shot it during the pandemic. Okay. During like the craziest point in the pandemic, which was obviously, well, no, was like the election. remember the election like yeah so you have all of that going on and whatever i'm not talking about politics but you had that going on so its emotions are high and then you have people being sick constantly and this was like when there were COVID coordinators with measuring tape like i remember one guy had like the six foot stick and they put them in between us and i was like this is so crazy

how do we do our jobs i remember operating um and my eyepiece would just completely fog up and I'd pull down the mask and pull my eye away just to do it and then right at cut COVID coordinator excuse me excuse me I saw you pull your mask down and I'm like we get one chance at some of these shots and I can't have my eyep fogging up what are you kidding me like and we're outside like how about anyway I can go on days for that stick but that the amazing thing was the crew and how much they came together during that time and how much they stuck together and the stuff that we pulled off was incredible during that time and I'll always look fondly I always look fondly on the movies that I shoot in the crew that I work with but

especially that crew and the sacrifice that they made because it was a sacrifice it was you go home you don't know what you may bring back from set we shot during the coldest winter ever in Oklahoma and like had a snowstorm shut us down for one full week crazy and everybody made such sacrifice wearing those masks this is the mask and shield time right so you had the full get-up they all sacrificed so much to do that movie out of love for Kurt and the character and I'll I'll tell you why Kurt I remember at the complete art at our hotel the the whole entire place was covered in snow and ice and you couldn't get out. And the lady called our director, John, from the front desk.

He said, there's a man outside that's shoveling snow, and he said that he knew you. And he goes, okay, that, that's cool. So he walks out. And Kurt Warner was shoveling snow by himself to get the crew member's cards. He had flown in after they told him, don't fly in because of this. storm and he was out there with a shovel shoveling snow out to allow the crew to get to get their cars out and this by the way it was not on a shooting day this was on a Saturday he just want to be people to be able to get their cars out so they could go to the store and that speaks to the

character of a guy like Kurt Warner like that like he didn't have to do that man he didn't have to do that fly to shovel snow no I don't think anyone choose to do that basically you know and he was there every day and it was it was such a treat to have him but that it's that sort of sacrifice and love for the project. Obviously, it was about him, but everybody was that way. And we really grew as a family, and it really still pisses me off today that people shut down the house having a rap party. The rap party is never for the heads of state, right? It's for the crew. And we never got to have that rap party where we can just thank everybody because it was all under the guides of COVID and all that crap, and understandably, I just want to say, but still that family, that Oklahoma

crew and what they did was really incredible during really, really tough times. You know, I was interviewing the head of animation at a show that was on Quibi. Uh-oh. And really great guy. And he was saying that, because I was asking him, I was like, so did you just send everyone home with the computers and then they just work remotely? And he was like, yeah, it wasn't too big of a deal. because it's animation but he said almost exactly that he was like the biggest issue is when we

rap on an episode it's it's just silent yeah yeah and you crave that time is just kind of reflect and and to thank everybody and give him a big hug and tell them you love them and can't wait to see on the next one and it seems so minuscule maybe to some people but man it's that because it's only a few hours you know but um it's just such of time to reflect and to thank each other. And it's just that release altogether that I miss. I miss on movies now when they don't have them because of all the COVID regulations. But man, and any time during this is such a family unifying thing because it's so tough.

It's so tough to work in. Yeah. I was. But thank God. I will say, let me just say, thank God to our COVID coordinators because they get shit on so much because of all the processes and how many things they're showing. into each corpus of your body, but they really, they have as much of a sacrifice. They are, they encounter the people that are sick first, you know, and they're the ones

that encounter all. And they really do a really great job in, in even at times where we think it's ridiculous. And then to that crew specifically, they gave our whole entire crew, it's right when the vaccine came up and offered free vaccinations for everybody, get them first, because that state actually Oklahoma's they made film workers essential workers we got the vaccines first

which is probably horrible to talk about in the night's site but it was kind of crazy no I mean California did the same thing and I thought like why and then they were like well the news and I was like yeah but I'm not the news right right exactly

in you go bud I was like yeah here we go yeah but LA's LA's vaccine like was fast as shit. So they were literally begging people. They were like, we have so much room. Just come. And we're like, well, we're all waiting for our time slot. They're like, fuck a time slot. Just show up. Just show up. Just get here. Just get here. But I will say like, yeah, that's a thankless job. I help run college ski trips every winter. And this past one, you know,

Keystone was really, really like hard on the mask thing. So I had the stack of masks. And I would every, and this is like Alabama, um, Louisiana, like D-Schools coming in and I'm handing out masks and just getting every mask I handed out. I was further and further down everyone's shit list. And it got to the point, like I was getting yelled at by kids. And I was like, there's a million signs. You're only in this conference center for like 30 seconds for check-in. Just put on the thing. And one kid like he like had it around his chin and I was like, hey, man, you got to pull that up. And he goes, uh, what about everyone else? And I was like, oh, buddy, like I didn't have a stack of a thousand in my hand, like walking around.

And that's just handing out masks. That's not even like the six foot pole and the whole thing. And so, yeah, definitely a thankless job. But I hear they get compensated well. So that's good. Yeah, I was going to ask or I wasn't going to ask about Kurt Warner's involvement in the film. But it sounds like he actually was all up in there because normally like he was there from the get go. all the way from the beginning

the Irwin's do this thing where and they do it with Lionsgate for all their projects before they green light a project they go ahead and Kingdom puts together a documentary it's usually eight to ten minutes a documentary on the story that they want to produce

and so Kurt from the very get-go as part of that documentary and I remember walking in the movie was originally supposed to shoot the year before COVID and it got shut down. The week that the week that I signed my deal memo on a Thursday and I think it was a Friday when the NBA shut down and I was supposed to arrive in Atlanta on Monday. We're supposed to shoot in Atlanta. And by the way, also 25% bigger budget, right?

They cut that 25% during COVID, right? And so then people start disappearing that you thought were going to be a part of it and so on and so forth. And so when, so I remember during that span of time, before that, they were, they were doing the documentary, but then they were ingesting a lot of footage. Kurt, like, sent all his home movies to the office. And it was weird. I walked by an intern's office and it's all these, like, home videos of Kurt Warner and Brenda Warner. And I'm just like, that's so weird. Like, you don't get to see that part of their lives ever.

And this is what we're looking at to help him. inform the story. And then when they got there, he couldn't be there because of the Super Bowl. He was working Super Bowl. What's that? So he couldn't be there. Yeah, I think it's a big soccer tournament.

But yeah, he loves soccer. He wasn't there because of the Super Bowl. And then after that is when he came in. And when they came in, it was his focus was, how can I inform your creation? I don't want to tell you, how can I inform it? So if you have any question. So when we shot in this bar, the bar sequence right at the top of the movie when he meets Brenda, that was a lot of like question for me because am I actually, what is this, does this environment really richly display what you guys went through? And because obviously it's a different place.

And we had no frame of reference because the actual bar had been torn down. And so he just walked me through the process of how he met Brenda, especially through the dancing. And it kind of informed how he did the photography. But there's this moment in the movie where he finally gets her name and he dances with her just to her right at near the closing. And this moment is so beautiful because I didn't know how to shoot it. I didn't really know how to frame it. And my gaffer and production designer, we had gone through like they're very low ceilings in the bar and so we weren't sure how we were going to light it with them being so low and we came up i was driving and i heard um uh darius rucker singing wagon wheel and then for

some reason it was like what if we have a wagon wheel light like the old western wagon wheel lights and then Nicole else yeah and then Nicole else peru our production designer she was like that's brilliant let's take it further right she goes let's make it different than a wagon wheel still the same concept and between her and my gaffer they created this incredible fixture that looks so perfect for the environment but they created it for nothing it had like 30015 watt bulbs in there it was this incredible fixture and they're standing underneath it and so I'm like how do I like feature how do I feature this all correctly and I was just struggling with this moment of how to get into the scene because now he's finally got her, right? And I didn't want it to be just this

wide shot of them dancing on the floor and the kind of coverage. And so Kurt walks up to me, he goes, do you mind this is so reminiscent of how I felt like when I met her. I just want to take a picture with me and my wife. And they start dancing on the floor, all around the floor like they do in the movie, like doing this dance together. And it's just this beautiful moment. And then he takes her and he kisses her. And I have the picture. It's this picture of him kissing her. It's a black and white photo.

They kiss and it's underneath the lights of the wagon wheel. And I'm like, holy shit, that's the frame. That's how I get into it. And it's the exact same frame. And you can go to my Instagram and see it. I think I put it out there. It's the exact same frame that I have of just taking their picture before we started shooting. And that was how I got into the scene.

And he just, without even knowing it, Kurt and Brenda in, formed the photography by just doing what they do and being just real and it was so cool and nobody will ever know that until now yes yeah but um exclusive exclusive right there um that that was so cool for me just because it was real and was grounded and and it feels that way in the movie and there was so much of that with him was just like yeah um this is the way it happened um and this is how i felt and you're able to go oh maybe And then I'd be able to go to John and be like, Kurt said he felt this way. I think if we stay in this shot a little longer on his face or let's make sure to get this reaction and maybe we tell Zach this is the way Kurt felt.

And he was always there for Zach and it for me. So never once, though, was he that type of guy going, hey, I want my cousin in the movie or, you know, this would happen or that would happen. And, in fact, we wanted to get, we wanted there to just to nerd out, to put him in a uniform and throw one of the footballs. Yeah. But he, like, Rick used to say, he was like, no, I don't know, I can't do that. But he does the moment when Kurt buys his car in the movie, this green Jimmy, because he thinks he's going to play for the Packers the rest of his life. He buys this green Jimmy. It is Kurt's hand signing his own, his own name on the, on the deed to the car.

So, yeah, we did fit something in there. But at first it was It was tough to shoot Accurate signature We had to It was tough to shoot because dude That that dude's fingers are fucked up Oh I bet

He's been hit by helmets And so like I had to creatively Find an angle where it was like Hey Zach's finger Doesn't really curve off to the left Like yours does he's like Oh that's when When so and so

Smash their helmet into me after I threw the ball And I was like Oh my gosh your fingers are so messed up That's funny Shit man I've taken you over time. I'm sure your wife wants you, but I'm having far too much fun. No, this is great.

I enjoy these things. Yeah, but I will have to wrap it up. I ask the same two questions at the end of every podcast. I've said a few times now that I'm changing it. And so I think I'll change it with, I'll just ask. All right, it's three questions. It's kind of great. All right.

First one, what's a piece of advice that you either receive, or read somewhere or something like that, just kind of a, maybe a phrase that's kind of stuck with you through your career. It doesn't have to be the piece of advice, but just like one that comes to mind. Other than learn how to save money.

Because you're not going to be working all the time. Yeah. Man, that is such a great. There's so many of them. You know what? It was when I was gaffing, actually. And key grip on a show that I was working with, he goes, he goes, man, there's this little box right here that's the frame. And you must protect that box at all costs.

And I remember thinking, this guy takes this shit really seriously. And then realizing, like he was a veteran, right? But then realizing how much, how important that box is and protecting that box. And that can mean so many different things, but protecting that box and what that has a, has now become for me, protecting that box is when they put my slate, when they put the slate in there, my name is on there. And it says, director of photography, I'm the last person to sign off on that shot. And everybody's safety is on me.

Everybody. And I have to protect that frame. And then protecting that frame and protecting the people behind me and the people behind them. And I'm the last guy, last, last defense between hitting that button or going, we can't do this. and I take that very, very, very seriously, very, very, very seriously. So protecting that box means protecting everybody behind it. And that was probably one of the most profound things that had ever been said to me. And I've taken that with me.

And I tell everybody, tell everybody, you got to protect that box. You got to protect it. That's great. Second question, American Underdog is in a double feature. What's the other film? The other film, which I am going to say this because they have pushed the date. So I don't know when it's now coming out. You know, COVID.

This all sucks with theaters. But the movie's called The Unbreakable Boy. It is my favorite movie that I've ever been a part of because I have a grandson who is autistic. And it is about a boy who has osteogenesis imperfecta, which is Brittle Bone's disease. And he's also autistic. and I got to really partner with the director, John Gunn, and make a movie that really gets inside the life of the family and their struggles and the things they go through and the great things that they have to overcome together. What a beautiful movie. Zach Levi just happens to be in that one as well in what I think is one of his greatest performances.

And kind of a newcomer, the boy's been in some other stuff. stuff. But this kid, Jacob Laval, who plays Austin Lorette, the boy in the movie, is like, whoa, like, whoa, whoa. I think, you know, I don't, I don't, nobody's going to take advice from me for Academy Award nominations and stuff like that. But you better give this kid a statue soon because he is, he's woe talented. And he just lived the role. And it was special watching that kid do what he did. And man, it's, it's just one of those movies that is going to, like, cut to the core of you. It's, it's the closest thing to ET that I made. So I can, I can honestly say that, that thing that just emotionally gets right to the core of you. What a beautiful movie. I can't wait for people to see it. And the other performances in there are just great.

This gal Megan Fagie, she's in it. She's absolutely incredible as Austin's mother. So you guys are going to love the movie when you see it. It's really great. that's dope yeah we shot that we shot that literally right before in oklahoma that's how we made those movies was back to back so i shot unbreakable boy then like was prepping on unbreakable boy for underdogs then rolled right into underdog so we were in we were all in COVID lockdown in Oklahoma for eight months

shooting all those all that of those movies together. That's cool. I mean, that's kind of cool actually. It was a great idea. Lionsgate was brilliant to do that. And they got two great movies out of it. Hell yeah. Third question.

Suggest a movie for people to watch that isn't yours. Suggest a movie for people to watch. And not ET because we know you're going to say ET. Yeah. No, no, no. I would. Can I go back to the lighthouse again? Like that movie is just stuck with me.

I mean, just watch that for performances. I mean, it's so good. Robert Pattinson fucks. I don't like, man, he got so much shit for the Twilight movies.

And then he nailed it. You do the movie that makes you all the money. And then you're allowed to make all the movies you want that you can just like good time. Like all these, Robert Pattinson's dope. I never thought I was going to say that. I yeah never I mean I yeah I I started thinking I need to go back and watch Twilight movies maybe I miss something out of that yeah you know just you know it's like when you know 10 things that I hate about you or something like that had um Heath Ledger you supposedly like that movie like like I'd heard that Nolan saw that movie and was like this kid has depth and I'm like I'm sorry did we watch the same movie I mean it was fine or whatever but But what depth is on the screen?

Maybe I missed all that. Oh, you know what? I think it was broke back. I think I know the quote you're talking about. He said that he saw broke back and he thought that Ledger was fearless. Oh, well, maybe it was that then. That is a great movie, actually. Man, Angley is like so hit or miss for me, but that one was definitely a hit.

Yeah, I would just say, say, like, I'm sure there's other ones too. I'm so in the series now, too. Everyone says that. We're all watching shows now. Like, the shows are just so good. it's so weird man i don't know what's happening to me like my wife and i um you know a new episode new season of ozart i mean you want to watch something that's new and that's informative about stuff that i kind of remember and i watch euphoria i think that movie while it's definitely

heightening a lot it's not really heightening a lot and that stuff like that marcelle rev is a genius and and um and like Just watch that show. That show knocks me off my ass every single time. I'm always, like, blown away by what I'm watching. And the performances are ridiculous. And Zendaya is perfect in every way, shape, or form. I love, love, love, love.

That shit, I've only seen a couple episodes of it. It's shot. Apparently, they're using positive film to shoot that. Are you shooting Ectachrome, which is nuts. Nuts. But, you know, I saw everyone on Twitter, and I was like, I can't tell if everyone hates this movie or this show or loves this thing. It just seems like they're all clowning on it.

But I think it's like everyone's in on the fun. I jumped on episode one when it first came out because I've been, I've got this story that I'm writing that I want to direct one day. And it is he like Samuel Levinson like and and really like if you don't like assassination nation, I think it was. It was his, it's a great movie and very visually like wild. Sorry, my dogs are losing it. Visually wild a movie.

But man, he just. episode one grabbed me and I was like this is something I'm not seeing anywhere else but it was still incredible story wise so and they've just I feel like season two like season one was definitely the popcorn season now season two they're like going like no holds barred and we're telling the story exactly the way we want to tell it so no no frills just like let's get to it and tell the way that it needs to be told so the lighthouse and euphoria yeah very It's such a very, very, basically same color spectrum. Both shot on film.

Yeah. That says something. Yeah. Well, that crazy orthographic film or whatever. Anyway, all right. I'm going to let you go. We'll definitely have to have you back on because this is. Yeah, man.

Let's do this again. I just, and if you just want to call me and we'll just sit there and shit to shit, too, we can do that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Hell yeah, man. Cool. Well, I'll let you go and I'll text you the dummy battery thing right now. Yeah, please do.

Yeah. All right. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, thanks, man. Take care. Bye. Frame and reference is an Owlbott production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition.

Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidiocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.