Frame & Reference Podcast - 58: "Lover Beloved", "Shouting Down Midnight" & "Mama Bears" DP Amy Bench (SXSW Selects)

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Amy Bench about not one, not two but THREE films that she shot that debuted at SXSW this year. Pretty impressive creator and well worth the listen! Enjoy the episode. Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Amy Bench, who d-Ped three films that went to Sundance this year. You've got Mama Bears, shouting down Midnight, and Love Her Beloved. She also had a fourth film up there, but I'll let her say what it is. Very obviously talented and accomplished filmmaker. You know, plenty of documentary work on her CV. That's really great as well as narrative. You know, this conversation's a ton of fun.

We had a lot of laughs. You know, we talk about a lot of production stuff, cameras, the importance of documentary and narrative in the sense of what you're telling the world, not like scripted. But yeah, it's just really great one, really great talking. with Amy. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Amy Bench. Well, that's something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast is like, you know, being a DP is like you have one foot in post and one foot on set now.

Yeah. Because it feels like it wasn't like that before. You know, I almost feel the opposite. And maybe it's because I do not really the opposite, but I do a lot of documentaries. Whereas in film school, we were still shooting on film. And so I feel like as a DP, I had a greater responsibility to manage the image. And they would never want to go to the color session without me. And now it seems like to some people, color can be an afterthought. So it's harder. Yeah, it's really strange because the director has already seen the footage and I think people are getting used to seeing

S-log footage or you know they it's like that doesn't bother them um but yeah I think being in the in the in the color grade is like super important and I always try to be there if I can but it's you know some some of the films that I work on are five-year projects so it's like when you get into a festival it's like hurry up and finish the film yeah yeah the the uh me and a friend of mine there's a music licensing company that's doing a film festival and they're you know they're just giving out a bunch of prizes and stuff so like yeah we'll give it a shot because they only wanted like you know a 30 to 60 seconds spec ad or um you know two minute five minute documentary or five minute short you know so we're like

yeah we could knock that out and we're going through uh examples of what we wanted to make for the spec ad yeah And we started seeing, we were like, wow, they really didn't do anything. Like, these are like, you know, Gucci commercials or whatever. And we're like, why do these look? And we look at the date and it's like 2012 and we're like, oh, that was prime. The Log looks professional days. Everything else is so colorful.

This looks really professional. This looks professional. We know we shot it on the red because there's nothing going on there. Yeah, right. That's really funny. How did you, were you always of like a visual person growing up? Because I understand you, you were an engineer at first. Yeah, I think I always was a visual person. I was really into making artwork as a kid. And even in high school, I was in, I took art even though it was like, you know, in Texas art is not really considered valuable. They're always trying to like scrap art programs. It feels like, including writing. now my son's school they're like trying to cut um they're trying to cut art time per week from the already abysmal amount of art they have to even less to save money and i yeah i can't i can't

put my head around why they're doing it but um well and they're replacing it with how to do taxes and shop class right exactly it's like we need more oh i think i know what it is it's raise test scores but um oh yeah we're still doing no child left behind yeah i think it could be moved on to something else i can't remember but yeah it's it's to improve test scores which i feel like test scores in our school district are probably pretty good and that we need to be focusing on on bringing back art and music yeah ultimately like compassion and empathy and more creative um endeavors i think are what make us a better people altogether. So, yeah, I was always striving to be an artist.

I just didn't know how to do it. I was also good at math and science, so I was sort of pushed to go into that direction. And I ended up working at Eastman Kodak in Rochester, New York. Oh, wow. That's my first job was actually in high school. I worked in the photo lab of what is now CVS. It used to be called Eckerds.

So I did a little color grading then. I got to print out people's photos plus magenta, minus science. You know, like, so I got to learn a little bit there. But I just loved being around images. And when they were interview opportunities for different jobs, and I saw Kodak was on the list, my school brought in employers from all over the country to interview because it's a pretty well-regarded engineering school.

And when I saw Kodak on the list, I was like, ooh, that would be kind of cool. And so I ended up getting the job and moving to Rochester, New York. And a great thing about that job was that it was a rotational program. So I got to explore different areas within the company. And additionally, I got to learn about imaging science. So they basically brought in 10 or 15 of us a year for what was. called the Image Science Career Development Program, and we got to learn how film was made, how the different layers work, all the science behind film technology, and then also digital

technology. So I had a pretty good technical understanding of image making before I even went to school. So I think that's why I deep down really understand color grading and understand exposure and working with any format camera because I understand how the sensors are capturing the information. It's not something I think about deeply, but it's just in the back of my head. Sure, yeah. So that, so after working at Kodak for a few years, I decided that I wanted to be more directly involved with filmmaking. And so I enrolled at the University of Texas at Austin, and got an MFA in film production.

They don't have specialties like AFI does, but you sort of specialize based on what you do. So it's a directing program, and then several of us would focus on cinematography because everybody needed someone to shoot their film. So I ended up learning by doing, and I would also work as a teaching assistant for the cinematography professors.

So in regards to the like understanding, you know, how images are captured, is there anything that you notice kind of fundamental misunderstandings that you see popping around where you're like that's maybe like a folk tales that aren't, you know, correct? Because I'm thinking, you know, there's a lot of lessons to learn going from film and digital especially. You know, what I think is like, and I think shooting on film helps you. see this is just really understanding exposure and where you want to properly expose. Like with film, we would all, I would always expose like a stop and a half over to give more

information on the negative because the negative is a little denser. And I feel like with digital since you have, I think people aren't used to read, I think it's because digital's been around longer and people are learning, they're starting to look at their waveforms more and histograms. But I feel like in the earlier days of digital, whenever people were shooting on DSLRs and other cameras, like, it was sort of an afterthought. Like, people would just turn on their zebras and, like, expect that that would be enough. Yeah. But I'm a big proponent of always knowing exactly where your exposure is sitting. Yeah, the whole idea of, you know, put your waveforms at, or put your zebras at 90s so that

nothing blows out and it's like they start under-exposing because the window's too high. Like, you're not going to see out the window. Like, stop. Yeah. Suppose for the person. Exactly. Yeah, totally. But in documentary, it's tricky because you're filming.

as so I keep my waveform on all the time and sometimes my exposure is not perfect and I know it but I'm like in the moment I have to set it for what I think is going to be the best and adjust it as I can but I'm also worried about focus and following the story as well so it becomes like juggling a lot especially when you're working on more independent things and you don't have a camera assistant or a focus polar right which I have had recently which is really amazing yeah it's a it's a world of difference the world of difference when all you have to do is point the camera um yeah but i yeah so i don't know if i have anything else to that that's fine uh because yeah that was something that really uh i think was like a lightning bolt moment for me was when i realized how important half a stop could be you know from looking

correct to looking absolutely mature. I don't know. Right. And I think the newer cameras give you a little bit more leeway in that. So it makes it a little bit easier. But shooting on like reversal film would be you have to nail it exactly. I kind of missed the days of using a light meter. I mean, there's really not time in shooting documentary work. But sometimes I bring it along just in case. I still bring my light meter and my color meter everywhere. Yeah. Because there's always like a situation where the camera's down or you're walking around with whatever the director.

And he's like, so we'll sit there. Does this all look good? I'm like, I don't know. And I'll just start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For narrative, totally, yeah, for narrative, I definitely use a light meter, or at least the gaffer will have a light meter, like they're in charge of it, and I'll ask for F-stop readings. Because even if you can see it on a monitor, I think it's still really important to know, because your eyes do get tired, too. So you can't just rely on what you're seeing, but you want to make sure that you're remaining consistent, especially as you're jumping around from scene to scene.

Yeah, that Big light meter proponent. I wish I could use them in documentaries, but I only have two hands. Is there a, is there a camera system that you found is really helpful for keeping you moving quick like that? I have been used, I used to use

Canon, and then when the FS7 Mark 2 came out, I switched over to that because it's got a variable ND, which is really helpful, Especially if you're shooting on still lenses, which I do sometimes. I've started collecting my own lenses that are either, like most of them are, yeah, they're modified still lenses. So they, I can switch aperture pretty smoothly.

But at the same time, if you want to maintain an F-stop, the variable ND wheel is really handy. So that's what I really live using on documentaries at least. and the Alexa, it feels like the gold standard for narrative work. Yeah, but it way heavier. But way heavier. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's log too.

Go ahead. I would say the Sonys are heavier than the cannons, I think, but ergonically. And yeah, I miss shooting on Canon, but I've found that the Sony is working pretty well. And I've got to shoot on the FX-9 a little bit, too. I don't own one yet, but same thing. I think the color is even better on the FX-9. Yeah, yeah, they really, with the six and nine, they both really improved the imaging. The FS7, you know, obviously, as you know, came out quite green.

Yeah. Which is a strange. That's the thing. Sony, like, started the digital, not, you know, not truly, but, like, in earth. you know, de facto Sony, you know, what was at the F23 and the 55 and all those. Oh, yeah. They were like the digital cinema people. And then they, and then their newer ones were like, hey.

Yeah. They don't, not as much. But if you've got a good colorist, you can, you can make it look like a cannon. Yeah. Or an R. Or an R. Well, that also puts you back into this shoe to stop over thing because Slog just loves to be over exposed, doesn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does, which is always uncomfortable for me. This feels weird. Yeah. What lenses are you starting to collect? I was just talking to the guy who had literally hundreds of different lenses. Oh, wow.

This one and this one. Oh, I wish I, yeah, I don't have them right here. Actually, I do have some. Actually, they're sitting right here. I bought a set of Lyca R lenses. Oh, Humblebragg. Oh. What's that?

I said Humblebragg. Oh. Is that what that is? Yeah, I think I actually like sitting in my kitchen. They're so pretty to look at. They are. Oh, yeah, I've got a couple. Yeah, they're just pretty.

This is the 90, which I really like. I don't know. I like them all. But yeah, I got a set of Lika R primes. I like them because they're really sharp and they have like an interesting texture to them at the same time. And I use them in documentary work. More specifically branded documentary when it's not true verite,

like if you're like a commercial where you do have time to change lenses and get different takes. I really love it for that. And then I also bought recently where it took me a year to get. get it. It's a rehoused ingenue 28 to 70 still lens. It's beautiful. The flare is like just gorgeous. So I've used that a lot on a project that I've been shooting the last few weeks and it's really amazing to be able to have the flexibility of the Zoom and then it just looks just luscious. I don't know. The drawback is that since it's not a true cinema lens,

like the zooms are not beautiful. The transition between focal lengths is not ideal, but sometimes that's okay for reframing between shots. It's fine. But yeah, those are the lenses I have right now. That is an excellent set. I'm hoping you can take that ingenue for a spin even more. I mean, I had my eyes on the easy one and the easy two, but for the price tag, I was just holding off. Yeah. And this 28 to 70 is pretty nice.

I think I'm going to use that for a while before upgrading or adding. Are you primarily on? Because like for, I've kind of become a, I used to. always be like, yeah, you don't need full frame. And then now that this is a C-500 webcam. And, uh, wow, I'm just using my, uh, my MacBook Pro. Everyone, yeah, that's totally fine. Uh, I just, my, my, uh, built-in webcam, at the time, I didn't have a laptop. So I was like, oh, I guess I got to use something. But, um, and I had just gotten it. And like I said, this podcast was initially a pandemic project. So I was just like, I need something. So I was like, why not

the camera I just bought and can't use right for anything you know way more runtime than record time on this thing yeah um but uh that 28 to 7 you're talking about like is is like the perfect full frame range full frame range um for me

because I kind of tend to shoot wider are you are you more a long lens kind of person I like I like why I mean for documentary I like wide I mean it really just depends on really the subject matter. You know, for branded stuff, I like to shoot a little bit longer lens, like around a 50 or a 90 to really take advantage of the depth of field that you get with those lenses. It's sort of difficult to shoot that way I find when you're shooting Verite docks.

So I tend to stay in the 28th. 35 millimeter range for being in a scene because I also like that that those wider lenses really show you the viewer like the location that the film participants are inhabiting at that time. So I do like shooting wide lenses and getting close when I'm shooting documentary and then shooting longer lenses if it's something branded or for narrative. of work, I'll definitely use more long lenses. But 35, I think it's 35 and 50 are probably my most common focal lengths for across the board. Yeah. Because the reason I ask is I've interviewed a handful of documentaries and the conversation of how the camera, you know, when you're working

with actors, they know you're going to be there. But when you're working with documentary subjects, they're always aware of the camera's presence. So the lens choice positioning always becomes a factor. How is that play into your kind of shooting mindset? Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm somebody who feels okay getting pretty close to people. I mean, a lot of the documentaries I film are pretty intimate. it. And so I just naturally get close really early with people. And I feel kind of like I'm just hanging out with whoever I'm with, even though I'm behind a camera. So I, that's just sort of my

natural inclination is to get close. And I find that most people respond okay to that, especially people who are really good in front of the camera, which is what you want in documentary. So I haven't ever yet been in a situation where I feel like, oh, I mean, you know, when you're shooting like a school board meeting or something like what I've been doing recently, longer lenses are good because it's hard to get close. So in those cases, yeah, I would say like you definitely have to strategize about what lenses you're going to bring. But if you're in someone's house, I'm usually pretty close to them. And it usually is worked out.

I am not somebody who would want to be on that side of the camera. So I can imagine that the presence of the camera is quite obvious. But I find that people will just forget about it pretty quickly, as long as you're respectful of their space and aren't on them the whole time. I tend to move around and not stay in one location when I'm filming, especially if there's multiple people in the room. I'll go for cutaways and things like that. And that gives people space to be away from the camera for a minute.

But yeah, the type of filmmaking I do is typically wider lens closer in. Yeah. Do you take into consideration kind of the builds of the camera? because I've heard that like, you know, if you were on a mirror and you've got, you know, a 7-inch monitor and an easy rig and you're, you know, up close it on 28, it's kind of like, get the fuck, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I'm filming on my own camera on the Sony. And it does, you know, it's the rig is bigger now than it was when I was shooting some. of the work that was at South by, because now I've got a map box and using filtration. So it does look a little bit bigger. And so the camera is maybe slightly further away.

But yeah, I definitely think it's important. Like if it's a more sensitive topic or you want the camera to feel smaller, then you just kind of drop all that other stuff. Like, I usually do shoot with an easy rig, and I find when the mini easy rig came out, I got it fairly soon, and I was wondering, like, what are people going to think about this? Like, I used to just be able to hold the camera like this, and it's just me and the camera. But now I've got this, like, big thing over me, and people got, like, it didn't really bother people. I was really surprised.

But I will, if I'm ever concerned, I'll always ask the director. Do you think it's okay if I wear this? Because it does help me to have that extra support. So yes, I guess I do agree that like having a bigger camera means maybe you can't get so close. And maybe, you know, that's one reason why I stick with the camera that I do. Yeah. I know Jenna Rocher, I interviewed her a while back. She did the Billy Eilish documentary.

Okay. Great documentary. She had like a little belt with like a pocket in the front. Yeah. And she would put a tripod, a monopod into the little pocket. Yeah. And so that, and so she could like articulate from there. And I definitely stole that idea.

Yeah. Like 3D printed a little pocket and just like made the belt loops the right size. And then I have one of those. I used to, so I used to shoot with a C100 and I would shoot that way before the easy rig was out. Like I had a belt. And then I would stick a monopod in it and I got like a better head for it. Yeah, yeah. And that worked pretty well.

It doesn't work for me with the Sony. The Sony's body is too long. Right. What camera, do you know what camera she was using? C300, I'm pretty sure. That's 300. Wow. Yeah.

That's an advantage of the cannons that they're like a little boxier. Yeah. Yeah, these new, the 300 mark three and the 500 mark two are like, I mean, they, it's, in my opinion, and I don't want to come off as a shill for Canon because I don't, they have no connection to them. I've got friends over there, but I'm not like, we're not. It's just what I own. But I think it's like the perfect combination of like red body size and Alexa look. These new ones. I know, I'm going to be in the market for a new camera soon. And I need to, like, do I go for the. FX-6 or FX-9, or do I go back to Canon? If you were going Sony, I would go FX-6. Yeah.

Honestly. From what I could see, there's not a lot of... This is the nerd version. I'm talking. The FX-9 didn't appreciably give enough features over the sick. It was a really weird move for Sony because, like, the 9 came out and it was, what, 10 grand? And then almost immediately after they basically released the same camera, slightly smaller. right and uh and made it like five or six or whatever it was yeah yeah i think they look the same i

haven't done side-by-side tests but you get two cameras for the price of one for real yeah yeah um i kind of actually wanted to ask you uh in this sort of vein like how do you notice any ways that your engineering brain kind of meshes with your art brain um because i because you know i certainly build like to build my own stuff but i don't think like an engineer. I think like, you know, I hate annoyances. Right. So I'm just like, this doesn't work for me, you know. Yeah. I mean, I get, maybe not directly. Like, I think I am a decent problem solver because

of engineering. I mean, that's what engineering school is supposedly helping you to become better at is solving problems. And I find that there's a lot of pieces that you have to keep track of, as you probably know, the more gear you get, the more you have to, like, account for where it is and when you might need it. And so I think it's just more on that level of, like, equipment management and, like, remembering, like, I don't know, yeah, remembering where things are. In terms of, like, I'm not, like, really a gadgety kind of person. I will actually like kind of look on Instagram and other websites to see how people are building out their rigs. I'm not really interested in figuring it out myself.

I'm just like, oh, what are they using? And then I'll be like, oh, yeah, that looks great. Okay. I think I can, I think I'll get that. So I'm more tinker that way with like kind of browsing, like how people are sending up their cameras. Sure. Well, even though. But, yeah.

I mean, like, also like, sort of artistically. Like, do you notice things that maybe a more analytical mind tends to not overlook that maybe more artistic folks tend to... Like when I'm filming. That is really interesting. I mean, honestly, I feel like I try to lean away from my engineering mind when I'm filming because I feel like one of my strengths is my sensitivity.

And I note, like, in terms of noticing subtleties in my... light changes or subtleties in performance or subtleties in how this lens looks versus another one or standing over here versus over there to get a shot. I feel like I try to like go as much that direction as I can. My engineering mind could be helpful in that while I'm filming, I'm also thinking about editing. I'm not an editor, but I'm keeping track of the shots that I'm getting while I'm shooting so that I can make sure to give the editor cutaways at certain points. So I feel like I do have to use my analytical mind

at the same time. And I think that's one of my greatest assets is usually editors are really happy with the footage that they get. Because I think it is a really tricky thing to do when you're filming real life is to figure out when you can break away and get people cutaways, not just like, oh, I'm going to cut to their hands, but like when someone else's

reaction might be important, they're responding to something else, but it's the same reaction that would have happened at a certain moment. So I think thinking about the editing of a scene and keeping track of all of that is where that analytical mind comes in. Yeah, or just something I really had to learn was when I got excited about a clip to not end it. Oh, yeah. Like knowing, because I shot a lot of like, I never really did documentary as such, but for the longest time I was shooting concerts. And I would know that like, thinking like an editor, I was like, oh, got the clip and I would

end it, not giving myself any tail or anything. I try to hold shots fairly long. I mean, I learned that early on. Like, even if you think it's long enough, it's probably not long enough. Yeah, 10 seconds feels like a long time. And sometimes what people say or do after you think you just got a really great moment is even better. So I tend to stay. If I think I just got something really amazing, I have to resist the urge to pan away to the other person.

I just stay on that person because then they might say something even more like insightful or just transcendent, something that transcends. Like what's already been happening. So it's that resisting that urge to get reactions too early is what I am always working on. But I've been doing that that way. And there's a scene in Mama Bears that someone pointed out to me. It's screened last week at South Byer. Was it the week before? It might have been last week.

Yeah. Time has been weird recently. Or one of the protagonists, Kai, who's a transgender girl, in the scene, she's six years old, and she's asking her mom if she can have a sleepover. And her mom is struggling with this. I mean, the answer is no, and she's telling her why. Because of COVID? No, it's because Kai's transgender. And so they're keeping it a secret from certain people, because they live in a conservative.

of Texas. And so her mom is like, you know, we just can't risk it, basically. And you can see, I never panned over to her mom to hear all of the reasons why not. I'm just on Kai's face. And you can just see her inner, like, sadness come through on like the little eye twitches and things that she does. And I think it's a really powerful moment because it makes you understand how hard hard it is for her to have a normal life if this is pre-COVID that we filmed this um oh i see okay

okay yeah if she can't yeah so maybe maybe it's not as big of a deal to not have a sleep over now that we've gone through COVID and like that's normal like my kids have never had a sleep over yeah but at the time it was like wow like i i might i can't have my best friend come over because yeah um even though even though she knows i'm trying to transgender, it might just bring up things or things might happen that, yeah, it's a tough. Yeah, it's tough to, I'm noticing more and more that adults are really intent on making sure kids grow up right out the shoot. No, no, no, no, no play time, you know, like no, no time to explore yourself, no time to, as, as, As David Lynch says, you know, just have ideas and be weird and like, you know, explore

stuff, be yourself, whatever. It's like, no, we have all these rigid rules that happen and you've got to know them. I find incredibly frustrating. Yeah. One thing I did want to ask was if you had any like visual influences, you know, coming up as a cinematographer, were you, were there? films or directors or cinematographers that you were really into. Were there any maybe like photographers maybe that sort of inspired you

and sort of maybe influenced your look? Yeah, I would say there's three main people, cinematographers and photographers. I'll list them and then maybe talk about them each. Amy Arbus is one of them. She's Diane Arbus's daughter, who's a famous photographer. Albert Maisels, who is the one of the original direct cinema filmmakers. He did a lot of Veritay cinematography in the 60s and beyond.

And then Emmanuel Lebeske or Chivo, who is like a really gifted cinematographer. So when I was still in grad school and finishing up, I was able to do an internship with Maisel's cinema. And I worked with Albert Maisels. And I just loved his handheld work. I think he was really talented at getting to know people really quickly through the camera. And his camera movement was just impeccable. So I watched a lot of his films and sort of studied how he did it. Amy Arbus, I took classes with she teaches or she used to teach at the International

Center of Photography. And while I was interning with the mazes and working on some of their film shoots, I was also taking photo classes with Amy. And she's really strong on composition. So she's always someone I have in my ear when I'm, it doesn't matter what I'm shooting, but she's like, look at the edges. Like, look at the entire image. It's not just what you're pointing the camera at, but like, what is the composition of like where, you know, I guess I'm looking at my own screen and it's like where these little rectangles are ending on the edge. Oh, trust me. Yeah. The middle of my room is dead center. The little cross hatches are exactly on that little. So it's like look at like look at the whole frame and it sounds so

simple, but it's like not just look at the whole frame, but how is that contributing to the image? And then a manual composition is so hard to. Yeah. It's not hard, but it's so easy. I guess it's easy to ignore somehow. Definitely took me a long time to be good with composition. Yeah. I still know if I'm good. I mean, it's still a work in progress. I think it's always, you know, you just like being an architect, I think being a cinematographer, like the older you get, the better you are. Yeah. Your just your visual acuity, it just gets stronger and stronger. And then when I was still in grad school, I got to intern, and PA and camera assist on the tree of life.

Oh, wow. Alex film that Emmanuel Leweski was the DP of. And that was just incredible. I learned a lot about lighting, like natural lighting, using window light, using bounce boards, using gridcloth and diffusion. and his steadicam operator was just amazing too. They shot a lot of that film as if it was a documentary. They were just following Radpit around.

Bummer of a day. Or Jessica Chastain or the kids. And it was like, again, the camera movement. I'm always really drawn to camera movement that just feels like it flows like a dance. So I think those have the biggest impact on me and how I shoot today. Were there any sort of lighting lessons that stood out to you as particularly memorable from that shoot? Because I feel like a lot of people would love to know the tricks of...

Backlight everything. It was like never frontlight, always backlight. I mean, backlight was the biggest thing in terms of, I mean, I think it was also like location is really important. So they would schedule scenes around time of day and shoot in the most optimal time of day, which made it really challenging for the actors, I think, and for the crew who are moving gear around a lot. But that film was almost entirely lit naturally. Sometimes there'd be an HMI out the window bouncing in through some diffusion or gridcloth. But for the most part, it was like backlit, everything was backlit, magic hour, backlit. First AD really getting their weight.

Yeah, the grip truck was pretty small on that shoot. The grip pickup. Yeah, the grip pickup. So I think it was like that film just always reminds me that like you, especially because I work in documentary, you can make beautiful images without a ton of lighting gear. You can just utilize what you have naturally because I'm, that's what I have to do a lot of times is come into a room and suss it out really quickly.

Which blinds should I open? Which one should I close? Are there any doors I can open? or closed. And that's actually one thing I did during COVID because of safety reasons also is like open a door here or there. And it's like, oh, the sound person doesn't love it. But it's another way of like getting some interesting lighting going on is by opening a door. It's another lighting source. So yeah, I think utilizing practicals and daylight to your advance. manage is sort of what I'm always aspiring to do and remembering that they did it so well on Tree of Life.

Yeah, I have to revisit that film. I haven't seen it. Yeah, I mean, they had amazing cameras and lenses. It was Ari and Zice. I don't remember which Zice lenses they had, but they were beautiful. And they shot mostly on like a 22, I think, so it was pretty wide. classic for Cheever. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the Stephen, again, the ASC guy with all the lenses, he was saying that, you know, lenses are the new emulsion. You know, now that all cameras kind of look, especially after the grade, can look kind of the same. That's a great quote.

Yeah, I know, right? That's why I remembered it. I have a terrible memory. Yeah. But lenses are the new emotion, you know, that's how you can really affect your image and make it unique. Yeah, I agree. And it's one reason why I haven't jumped to get rid of my FS7 yet is like, in all honestly, it's honesty, it still works great. And it's like, I'm just dumping money into lenses and using some filtration, not a lot to give the image a little bit of a different look. Because, yeah, a colorist can do different things. But the texture that you get, from a lens is just, it's not something you can create in post. Yeah.

What kind of filtration are you drawn to? Because everyone uses the black promis now, but I'm, I'm, I feel like, yeah, there you go. Yeah. It's a good one. Yeah, it's a good one. I like it. I'm trying to get away from it just because it's. It's becoming ubiquitous.

It is the, it is the, like, especially, one, Once the YouTube crowd gets a hold of something, it becomes truth. Yeah, right. Like glimmer glasses started to pop up a lot more. Yeah, I've used a little bit of that too. I don't know if Black Promists have made it to the documentary world as quickly. Really? I don't know.

You're still good then. Yeah, so maybe I have some time with this. But yeah, I think. in combination with lenses I think maybe maybe my promise to look different than somebody else's totally well and everyone else is you know that aforementioned YouTube crowd is they're all shooting on Sigma's like the sharpest class possible so there's just no texture there yeah exactly so they need it yeah the like us who boy yeah talk to me about the the films you got into south by had you ever been to south boy oh yeah well I live in Austin

So I've been to South by numerous times. I used to volunteer years ago and college. I mean, I work all like, so I'm a director and I also, I'm sorry, I'm a cinematographer and I also direct. So a film that I directed played in 2019. So I got to go to South by like right before the, well, a year before the pandemic and it was an amazing experience. And so being able to come two years later, when things are starting to open up more,

and it's one of the first major market festivals to be in person, was pretty amazing. So I feel like the energy was similar to 2019. It was a little quieter, but it was also intimate in a good way because not everybody attended in person. But it's a great festival. Yeah, I had three films that I would. was a DP on Mama Bears, which is a feature-length documentary directed by Derisha Kai about LGBTQ children and their Christian conservative mothers who have gone through a transformation in order to affirm their children.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's such an important film, and I knew that as soon as Derisha called me about it, I was referred by another friend to Derisha, and she called me before she had any funding for the film, and I was, like, immediately drawn in. As a mother, I could relate definitely to wanting to protect your kids at all cost. I'm not Christian conservative, but I live in a conservative state, so I know or have been in contact with a lot of Christian conservatives and know how. deeply held their, some of their values are. And so that immediate tension I knew was going

to make a great film for people who were able to drop their upbringing and their religious views and kind of do a 180 was pretty amazing. And the film is really wonderful. It just came out, but we started shooting it in 2017. And so actually a short film came out of this project before Mama Bears came out into 2019. The short was called Trans in America, Texas Strong, and it features two of the characters in the film. And that won an Emmy, which was really amazing for outstanding short documentary.

So that was the first project that played itself. That was the one you were referencing earlier. Yeah, yeah, with Kimberly and Kai and talking about, I was on, you know, filming Kai, talking to her mom about having a sleepover. Yeah, that was a great film. I mean, the people in the film feel like family because we've spent so much time together over a long period of time. And then, let's see, I worked on two more, shouting down midnight, which was also

a documentary filmed mostly in Austin about the when i don't know how familiar in california you are with the wendy davis filibuster or who wendy davis is she ran for governor a few years ago against gregg abbott i guess it's more than a few years ago in 2013 she ran for governor against gregg abbott and lost um he's still our governor um i've heard that's been fun super super fun uh So Wendy Davis sort of made her mark in 2013 or came into the spotlight when she was asked to stand up and fight a really restrictive abortion bill, which feels not very restrictive with the bills that we're looking at right now with basically making it illegal to have an abortion at any stage after six weeks. And deputizing citizens to be downy hunters. So this film is like sort of part historical, part impact that Wendy had.

So you get to witness the filibuster. It was basically an 11-hour speech that she gave in the capital, in the state capital here in Texas. And through that, she inspired a lot of young people to become activists themselves, whether it was for reproductive rights or immigration rights or other things. that's what that film is about. And I started working on that project in 2016. And I had actually been down to the Capitol in 2013 with my little 5D. And that was actually a great camera to film when you've got hundreds of people around the Capitol. And we were interviewing people about what was going on and just capturing all the energy. Because you could just move freely. I think I put a little

mic on top got really good sound and eight years later that footage is in the film um so that's the second yeah uh what's uh what's her name johnson um kirsten johnson she yeah yeah camera person yeah um so i interviewed her for dick johnson is dead and she was saying that back when she used to do essentially war correspondence when the 5d came out it was incredible because now she wasn't video person, she was just there, you know, and could really get some good intimate footage. Yeah, it's, no, I hadn't shot with a 5D since, I, I hadn't shot with a 5D since, I don't even know what year that was a while ago. Oh, nine.

Well, I mean, in 2013, I shot in the, in the capital with my 5D because it was so easy to move around. Just this past week and the week before, I was shooting with a small A-7-3, I think, a small Sony DSLR for a similar reason because we've been filming school board meetings in Texas where they're talking about book banning. And it's a way to stealthily record video when people think you're just taking photos. Not because you're doing anything terrible, but it's a little less distracting because we are allowed to be. be there. But I just find that when the director is, you know, prioritizing content over image. A7 takes great images, though. Yeah, it does. It's just, you know, it's hard when you don't have a monitor. You're basically just like looking at this screen. It's like this big. So keeping focus and all of that is especially when I'm so used to shooting on a bigger camera. It's a bit of like a learning

curve to go back to shooting that way but it is it is a really handy tool to be in environments where they may not want a big camera because they'll find it distracting and so it is kind of a game changer yeah it still is a really great tool yeah and you said there was another film yeah there's another film called lover beloved which um is basically a performance by Suzanne Vega. She was a rock musician. She still is singer-songwriter from the 80s. She's actually somebody I used to listen to when I was a kid. And she's still performing. How was that? It was really cool. I mean, when I first heard about the project, I was really excited because I was like, oh, wow, it would be so great to work with her. She's so talented. At the same time,

it was a little scary because we were basically turning her one-woman play. into or one one woman stage performance into a film and we only had six days to shoot this hour and a half performance or two hour performance so the script was edited a little bit and you know we shot all in a makeshift studio at austin film society um here in austin but it was it was great i mean we basically got to film her performing six or eight songs of hers that she had written about Carson McCullors, the Southern author, and then giving lectures as Carson McCullors about her life and feelings on humanity and love. It was really fun. It was, you know, we only had six days to shoot one camera, but we did that on an Alexa and used cook lenses to, you know,

bring us back to the time period in which Carson McCullors live. which this film takes place in the 40s and the 60s. So I thought, you know, we didn't have a budget to get two sets of lenses. Right. We couldn't have different lenses for, I think that would have been an ideal. Maybe use Zice lenses for the 60s and cooks for the 40s or something. But I just decided let's use the cooks. And I think we used pro-miss in addition on some of the earlier stuff,

just to give it a little bit softer feeling. And then the 60s were a little bit sharper. But yeah, I think the film came out beautifully. It was a really quick shoot. And I think we shot three lenses for each time period. You know, I shot a little tighter. Use tighter lenses in the 40s, a little softer in the background, and then a little wider and closer for the 60s

when she's getting older and slightly. less flattering lenses. So that's usually the opposite of what people would do. You have to enhance the natural. Yeah. I have no euphemism, aging process. I've come to some people vintage. Yeah.

I mean, you know, it was just a choice that I made with the director. And we didn't stick to it 100% because there were technical restrictions to, like, how big is the set? Where is the camera? Like, does this lens work? But for the most part, that was sort of where we started with. And got to play with a lot of color and gels and lighting strobes and stuff. It was really fun because we got to be really creative with that.

Has LED lighting kind of come into your sphere of influence yet? like are you still more kind of in the traditional hot light keynote situation so yeah it's interesting for this film we used a lot of tungsten for budget reasons but also um authenticity i really like the feeling of tungsten um so the like our main light was a 2k um tungsten and that was usually her key we would bring in LEDs for some of the strobing effects like we had um curtains behind her in some of the scenes. And if we wanted to, we could do like a rotating, you know, you can program different, um, different color, gosh, I don't know what the color values are called, but, you know,

like, you know, like, the RGB values. You could type those in, um, and we would set those like on a loop. And so we used LEDs for special effects lighting for things like that. But we use some really old vintage lights, um, that, um, that we used some really old vintage lights, um, that we even included in the background that we're all tungsten. A barger light was one of them and some scoop lights that are really beautiful. Yeah, there's something about tungsten that just still Yeah, it's so beautiful. But, you know, for documentary, I do use LEDs because they are much more compact and, you know, a lot brighter for the wattage. So, I'm not going to blow someone's

house up. I still have like a tiny set of tungsten lights that I bought right after college and have barely used, but I've sometimes I'll use them for the background or something to simulate a lamp light or something that I find them still like I have this tiny refa light that I really like. So I'll bring it along and I don't use it that often, but when I do, I think it's really lovely. So I think tungsten are still really great, especially if you're trying to do a piece that's more vintage or, you know, a different time period than today because LED lighting definitely feels more modern to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like, you know, Kino started the trend, but with LEDs, you know, it's just so easy to get a soft so close. Yeah. But, you know, if you've got the

room, air conditioning. Nothing beats a tungsten through, you know, half grid or something like that, full grid. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's true. I wish we could shoot with tungsten more often, but it's. It's way cheaper. You can rent a 2K for like 20 bucks a day.

Yeah, exactly. It is way cheaper. It just is like more work. Yeah. And you got to have a Jenny sometimes. You need more outlets. Or more circuits, yeah, or a generator. And an experienced gaffer.

And an experience, yeah. Well, hopefully I always haven't like an experienced gaffer. But yeah, like sometimes on docs, you're kind of like relying on someone else to plug in the lights. Yeah. It's not a gaffer. It's Kevin. It's Kevin. It's Kevin from down the street.

He's plugging in. He's plugging in the light. hopefully he's secure yeah uh so with all three of those films at sun sundance at south by what was that so i've never been uh were you just like i'd really love to um but were you just like running around town signing autographs and high-fiving everyone or like how did you feel very uh well i have a secret fourth film i don't know if i oh really i directed a film that played uh at south by it as well. So I had...

Did you have your own programming? I needed an assistant, believe me, I did, but it, um, no, it's a, I've been working on a series of animated short documentaries, which seems sort of strange for a cinematographer to be, um, making animated films, but it's another, it's utilizing a different part of my brain, I suppose. And working, getting to work with animators, it's great, like getting to work with someone who's really strong visually in a different medium is really fun for me. So I basically, the first four days of South by, I had a premiere every day.

None of the screenings overlapped, but I did miss, you know, there were a panel that I was asked to be on that I wasn't able to do because I wanted to go to the premiere of one of the projects that I worked on and, you know, some networking things I probably missed out on because I just wanted to enjoy the experience, like, of celebrating a film that you've worked on for two to five years. Totally. So it's, yeah, and things are a little spread out in South By. It was nice that I live here and have a car because I could drive and give friends rides places

because the Uber situation or Lyft ride share. Atrocious. It gets really tricky during South Byte. Some people were waiting for half an hour and then just get. gave up for their ride to come. But yeah, so this was a particularly busy South by for me, which is why we're talking after the festival. Yeah, yeah. It was really tricky to have much time more than changing my outfit every day and making sure I ate something.

Yeah, for real. It was a whirlwind, but it's a really fun festival. I enjoy the programming that they do. yeah it's uh i'm just i'm just thoroughly impressed by that like has anyone done that before has anyone had like four films all in the festival at one time i don't know i don't know um we should send you a plaque yeah yeah i was in one q and a i think it might have been the last Q&A that I did for the festival, which was Thursday of last week. And Janet Pearson, who is the head programmer, she runs the film fest.

She's like, Amy, didn't you have another film here? I was the DP on this film. I was like, yeah, I did. I had a few other films in the festival. She's like, huh? I didn't name them all because it was a Q&A for one of the films, but it was at least she knew something was up that I had more than one film but yeah I don't know if any I don't know how many people other than the people whose films I worked on know we gotta figure that out because that is like you know you could be like oh Emmy nominee whatever I would put had four films in a festival at once or Emmy winner sorry yeah yeah you know I had heard a interview you did where you had touched on the idea of making films as opposed to advocacy pieces. And I was wondering if you could kind of expand on that because I think it really is important to make a film that isn't, I feel like it's easy to point blame when you're making a documentary

as you seem to tend to make versus trying to educate or whatever it may be. Right. I mean, I think ultimately, even though I work in documentary primarily, I still have a very strong interest in narrative and I'm welcoming more narrative projects. And the documentary projects that I work on, while some or all have a social justice point of view or purpose, I think ultimately telling a good story is the most important. important part of that. And letting people in on the lives of others is sort of what they do. And so it's all about spending time with strong characters who are overcoming something or trying to overcome something. And the internal and external struggles that they face. So every film that I work on, whether it's narrative or documentary, I want the narrative element to be the strongest and the visual. the visual element to be as strong as it can be, which I find can be challenging in a documentary because you've got to be there when you have to be there no matter what the lighting looks like sometimes I do as I can. But I think, honestly, maybe that's one reason that I, in my directing work I've gravitated towards animation because it's a way to add that visual control back when I think there's a certain amount of it that's possible,

possible in a verity film where you're living with people in their daily lives. But in an animated film, you can tell a story and the visual language is limitless. You don't have to worry about what people are wearing or where you're able to interview them or you just do it and it's like a black box and then you have their voice and you can create the world based in like sort of based off of reality but goes kind of beyond reality. So the documentaries I've been directing, like I want them to feel like a narrative. Like you're not quite sure if this really happened or if this is a story someone just wrote or made up. I mean, there is an authenticity to them that you can hear in the people's voices.

But at the same time, the story is so powerful and the storytelling so visual that whether you like documentary or animation, you still get swept away. That's sort of my ultimate goal is that anyone will like this film. Right, yeah. So my directed films are about refugee experiences and finding peace and safety in safer, more stable lands. the United States. So whether or not you are interested in the refugee crisis, you're still going to be really moved by the films that I make. So that's sort of always in the back of my mind. Yeah, you're always making a film. I don't want to be part of projects where the sole intent is to change this law or do this thing. Well, that might be very important. I think that.

think in order to do that, you need to tell a compelling story so that people that don't have those lived experiences can live them through your film. Yeah. Because yeah, that's something like when you were speaking about the parents who didn't want to allow the sleepover to happen, it's like, how do you get those people to, because by nature being conserved, small sea conservative means you don't want things to change. Yeah. To stay the same. And so it's hard to, it seems get people in that small sea conservative mindset no matter what the subject being to come to your side because by their by definition they don't want to move from their position right but i think by showing um the struggles at this mom who wanted to you know she had already

shifted her mindset around accepting that kai was a girl um in the year prior to that but now it became a concern of safety. Because we filmed that during what was called the bathroom bill in Texas in 2018, end of 2017, there were bills against using the bathroom that didn't match your gender at birth, the gender assignment that you received at birth. And so that's what Kai was experiencing at school.

And some of her close friends knew, the administration knew, but it was still their family was being attacked in the school district in which they lived. And so I think it was more, it broke Kimberly's heart to say, no, Kai, you can't have a sleepover. It was all about protecting her and how, you know, kids can be mean. And if they end up seeing each other in the bathroom could see something. that makes them like feel uncomfortable and then the rumors can go around school and so i think she was really smart in wanting to protect kai from any um teasing or harsh treatment that she would get on top of what was already happening to her um and you don't and i think that's important for for people to see who may think like oh people just openly embrace transgender children they

openly embraced LGBTQ. It takes time. You know, it took time for Kai to be able to tell her mom, like, no, mom I'm really a girl. It takes time for Kai's mom to come to understand that. And I think it's important for people who are not on that side of acceptance to see that everybody has struggled with it. And it's not just an easy, like, acceptance. And it's a struggle that people deal with every day and I think it shows like, no, this family didn't choose to be a family with a transgender child. It's something that they are tackling every day because it makes their lives so much harder. Why would anybody do this to themselves? I think humanity is what is important for people to see in these films. And that's how you get change is when people have a deeper understanding

of how complicated these relationships are and what everyday people struggle with who are LGBTQ or who have LGBTQ children. It's not just like night and day. One day I have a boy, then I have a girl and I move on with my life. It's very complicated. It's very hard and that's why we need to support them and not blame them for using a certain bathroom or wanting to play sports when that's just a small piece of their life. Yeah. Well, and it, you know, as you're saying like making a compelling story about a human is far more valuable and probably what do you call it makes people think the way you want them to think whatever that word is then you know a political message or grandstanding or whatever it may be exactly yeah people

don't want to be told what to do but if you can if you can move them in somewhere way and get them to understand the life experience of another person, hopefully that will give them the understanding. Because I think a lot of hateful rhetoric and misunderstanding is through lack of knowledge, lack of exposure, and these films hopefully provide that to people. I mean, it is hard to break out of that bubble. You know, people who go to film festivals are probably usually younger, liberal, more open-minded. eventually these films will get into churches, I mean, especially mama bears. They're taking them to churches that are considering being LGBTQ affirming. And while those might be the most liberal churches in a certain denomination, there are still going to be people who need to be swayed. So I think the change happens slowly over time and maybe initially with people who are more liberal and then eventually like gay marriage, it becomes accepted.

Um, so hopefully transgender rights will follow suit with, it's just normal. Well, you know what's funny is, uh, it all, I, you know, seems very, I can see how it seems the trans rights thing seems very recent. Because recently it's just been talked about so much. But I went to high, I was in high school. I graduated in 07. I had a trans friend in 07, uh, who's a trans woman now. And so that idea wasn't strange to me. And also we were such a small school that like it was just like you couldn't, you couldn't judge someone for any choice they wanted to make,

let alone, you know, transitioning or fucking wearing a new hat, whatever it was. It was just like, that's you know, cool. You know? But for the rest of the country, did you grow up in California? I did. And I grew up in the Bay Area, so a little more open. Well, this was a religious school.

I wasn't there religion, but it was a religious high school. So I think it's just taking a long time. And trans issues are becoming much more mainstream. So I think films like this, where you can see a cute little blonde girl who is trans will really kind of, I think the fact that she is so young is. a good example of how it's not a life choice it's just it just she was born she was born that way um so i can't not hear like uh rah rah every time i hear born that way just like lady goes pops up in my um you know primarily musician uh so i've i've actually kept you a little longer than i should have

So I'm going to let you go. But at the end of, it's been really fun. Yeah. At the end of all these podcasts, like to ask the same two questions. Okay. One of them used to be, or is, if you were programming a double feature with your film, what would be the other film? But you have, I think, 11.

So maybe. Wow. So, you know, maybe if you were reprogramming a festival or something, what would be the analogous films that you would want? people to watch before your films. Oh, wow. That is a tough question. It used to be what's your favorite film.

That's way stupider. COVID. Citizen Kane. Yeah. Okay. So for each film list, watch this film and then watch. And then you are film. This is a toughie.

I should have thought of this better. I wish you would have sent me this question ahead of time. I didn't think about it until I literally didn't. I didn't think about it until just this second. This is the kind of question I need to put my head to the... Yeah. I mean, well, Mama Bears is easy because I think if you want to watch Trans in America because it's only 18 minutes and then you watch Mama Bears.

I don't know if that's too much Kimberly and Kai, but I feel like it gives you a window into the struggle. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I really hit you over the head with this one. I should have fucked that up. I mean, more than I remember, the short animated film that I made, you can watch my previous film Align Birds Cannot See because it's another film about the journey of a young woman coming to the United States for more stable life.

So you could watch that. Alignbirds cannot see and then watch more than I remember. For Lover Beloved, I don't know if it would be watching a movie, but I would say maybe watch some Suzanne Begham music videos and read a couple chapters of of

The Heart is a Lonely Hunter before watching Love or Beloved. Or you could actually I think, I didn't watch any of the previous film. I think they did make did they make a movie, The Heart is a Lonely Hunter? They made a few

of her novels into movies in the 60s, so I'd watch one of those before shouting down midnight um it's got alexandria okazio cortez it's basically about her running for office oh okay cool it's a really great film um and it so it's that's sort of like following someone who you know she was a a bartender and then she becomes representative oh yeah they made that like literally following her as she ran right so they had her footage of her bartending and shit in there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's incredible. And shouting down midnight is basically the impact that a politician can have on other young women. So I feel like

those films could go hand in hand. Totally. Yeah. My apologies, but great, great answer. Thank you. I'm actually going to tack on a second question. It's very easy. I ask every documentary in this shoe recommendation. Shoe recommendation. Because the documentarians are always on their feet. They're always carrying heavy cameras. The backs need support. I wear vionics. Vionics?

V-I-O-N-I-C. The tennis, I wear it's a, it's a brand that has like really good arch support, but they make really cool tennis shoes. Gotcha. So I lit a little behind the curtain is every documentarian I ask that question. And I have an Amazon, like, wish list. Not that I'm going to buy them all, but just like, You know, hokas have been recommended a bunch.

Oh, okay. I haven't worn those yet. Yeah. On cloud is another, is it on cloud? On, I think it's on cloud. It's a Swiss shoe. They kind of, they're not as like crazy looking as hokas, but somewhere in the middle. And then, let's see, Hoka, blundstones, which I personally wear, those are Australian boot.

Just the polon boot. Those are great. Las Sportiva. What's that? Italian boot, I think. Something like that. Oh, great. I want to write that one.

Sounds real exciting. And then there was, on some Adidas, something or another. Adita. Well, Vionic is new. I can text you the Amazon list.

Oh, yeah. That would be awesome. But yeah. And then finally, is there a piece of advice or maybe a quote you read or something in that sort of sphere that has stuck with you as a filmmaker and as a cinematographer that you think is sort of maybe not like the quote but just one thing that kind of stuck with don't give up is a good one who sings that I'm like I'm not a singer so I don't know if I can do it yeah don't give up It's a long, windy, I've found it to be a very long and windy road filled with a lot of questioning.

Is this going to work out? But if you care about it, then don't give up. Listen, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I agree. And next time you program your own film festival, we'll have you back on and talk about those films. Okay.

Thanks, Kenny. frame and reference is an owlbot production It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan And Distributed by Pro Video Coalition Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly And the F at Art Mapbox logo Was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard

By going to provideocoolition.com Or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.