Frame & Reference Podcast - 61: "The Rookie" DP Johanna Coelho

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Johanna Coelho about "The Rookie." Johanna has shot a number of series including "Killer Siblings" and "Ready Set Style." She also dives into an interesting way that she uses graduated ND filters that leaves Kennys jaw on the ground so make sure to listen! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I've got the great pleasure of talking with Joanna Coelho, the DP of The Rookie. She's also shot a bunch of other television, short films and films like that, but here to talk about The Rookie for the most part, We also talk about her, starting off as a physicist, going to AFI. We've had a lot of AFI members here recently. She's got some great tips. One that she, this will be some like clickbait intro. She hit me with one thing that she does with the graduated ND filters that's so obvious,

but I never thought of. So stay tuned for that. It felt pretty stupid, but it's a great idea. So you guys will probably either know that. or hopefully it's helpful, but as I was editing it, I was like, oh yeah, that's where I got that tip. Anyway, we had a lot of fun on this one. We usually have fun on these conversations, but, you know, a lot of laughs, a lot of knowledge shared, and just a lot of good times. So, as always, I'm going to keep this little intro guy short and let you get to it. So please enjoy my conversation with Joanna Coelho.

so the way that we generally start all these is just by asking how you got your start as a creative not necessarily how you got to being a cinematographer but just you know what were you always interested in the arts or was it kind of something that came later yeah so i i think for me kind of was very progressive actually i'm i think as a kid i was kind of exploring all the jobs, you know, at the moment I was like, I want to be a doctor, and then I wanted to make clothes. And, and, you know, I just started to, like, do little movies with friends on a small VHS camera, and I feel like everyone has this story. But that's, that is a very common story, me too. This is at least this generation. And then maybe the story is going to change.

Yeah. But then, you know, we would just explore different stories, like the story about a doctor or the story about someone who makes clothes, et cetera. And I just realized that what I loved about, you know, being behind the cameras and telling stories is that I got to do all the jobs. You know, I didn't have to choose. I could explore every single one of them. And that's why I really got into cinematography.

I think it's, I just love the opportunity that I would, you know, get many to travel the world and see every different type of personality doing every different type of jobs. And that was the only career. that could get me that so yeah really because that's a i feel like um in a lot of ways people that's that's a very practical way to look at it because i feel like a lot of people get in a film because they want to sort of hide from the world you know you're not it's not a corporate job

it's not something that is uh traditional you can kind of go into your little camp of people and uh and and make your movie and you know it's much more but like i want to see the world i suppose most a lot of people do do that but that's a very uh outgoing have you always been that outgoing i suppose you have i you know i think i'm as outgoing as i am i am shy too you know so it's kind of funny right i i love to be social and talk to people and at the same times you know i like to hide as well so it's it's it's real balance well it's also like that kind of um exploration is much more like learning you know learning based i i find i love even like on youtube and stuff i'm not watching like vlogs and watching like how it's made you know just anything educational I find really interesting

and so you know finding people interesting is just finding education in in others you know yeah I think I was really curious you know and I'm really curious about people in general and what's happening in their brain and how they think and why would they make that decision you know and I really think that's what I like about it visually to transmit that visually and explore people yeah I know a lot of people who have that instinct immediately go, I'm going to go to college for psychology. And then they get there and they're like, this sucks.

I'm not doing this anymore. I almost did that, but I didn't do it. I love psychology so much. But no, I went straight to cinematography, actually after high school. Really?

Yeah. It was a big deal for me because I actually was majoring in, in high school in science and physics specifically. But funny though, because you have electricity and optics, and when you think about it, it's definitely part of cinematography. And I was a pretty good student. So everyone was hoping that I would go like in an engineering school or, you know, maybe even business, but specifically more science in general.

And so I guess I was a bit of a disappointment to not follow that track, but I'm glad I did. Yeah, well, that physics background is definitely got to help you now. especially with digital cameras, but especially optics. Like nowadays, there's so much misinformation about lenses and just like, because, you know, different sensor sizes and stuff like that, there's like a bunch of woo-woo about lenses. And so it must be incredibly helpful to know like, nope, that's exactly this optical group does that.

There, boom, done. I know it. Yeah. Well, and I'm still learning myself, right, because it keeps changing and evolving. So it's you always, always learn about the different lenses. And like you said, what can you combine with what? Because it keeps switching with full frame and everything now. But at least the logic is there.

You know, like once I can track the logic, I can follow that through. And that helps a lot for sure. Yeah, there's still like a handful of, especially when it comes to lighting. Like I understand stops, you know, I understand ratios and all that. But when it gets to like how lumens change over distance, like my brain doesn't want to conceptualize that. It's just like, just do stops again. I don't know. Like, the difference between there and there is too many lucks for me.

I function in stops too. So, yeah, I understand stops better as well. So, yeah. Yeah, when you were coming up in college, you went to AFI, didn't you? I did, yeah. So I actually, I moved to the States from France to do AFI straight. Yeah. Oh, cool.

Were there, I know AFI is like a really, sort of regimented school where you get a little bit more of what I'm about to ask versus other schools where it's just kind of like happenstance. But did you have any mentors or any sort of strong influences during that time that kind of informed the way that you see your cinematography? Yeah. I mean, actually I would say on my, I mean, obviously we had great mentors at AFI, you know, and great guidance. But I would say all my best mentors. And we, who made me where I am today, are my classmates, you know? And just because we all came from different places,

we all had the different background. And actually, I was the youngest one and probably the less experienced one at that point, you know. And they all, you know, one was like from, you know, the movie world as an assistant camera for many years. And your one was electrician. And, you know, and they all shared their techniques and backgrounds and stories. And I think they're the one that taught me the most that I have I, you know. And of course, like the teachers were.

amazing and there was great places, but I really learned and was from my, from my colleagues that I fight for sure. Yeah, the, it's there's, we've had a few people from AFI on your, like you said, Bennett and, um, Andrew Wheeler and a few other people. And it is cool to hear how they've, um, kind of perfected that like that system. Because something that we've said on this podcast, a bunch is almost every DP has said, um, really the thing you get get from film school aside from the environment in which to fail and to make a lot of short films that are probably asked, but then you learn from them and get better, is that network that you build. And it really sounds like AFI has perfected the art of like instilling within

the students like to build that network. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're so. I mean, you, you know, we talked about competition within even AFI. But I, I really think it's more the fact we know different things and, you know, how much we share it with each other's. I think it's more bad, you know, the competition might come from the fact, you know, there's different directors and you want to get this project or that project. But at the end of the day, you always crew for each other's, you know, during this, the school time. And I think you really support each other all along. So I think if I was a great problem for that, honestly, you saw hands-on, non-stuff, especially the first year. And I think it's the best way you can really, like, you know, learn every single department on the cinematography and craft it, you know.

Yeah. Did they start you on film or did you, were you kind of into the digital? So we were doing a lot of our projects on digital, but we did have two projects on films. We did one on 16mm and one on 35. So I feel like lucky that we got, I think they still do it now. maybe it's only 35 and they stopped doing 16 I don't remember what it is but I feel lucky we got two projects on films and I actually I did my 35 so early um you know when when it was closed up and I was one of the first one to do it that I beg to do a second one so I ended up doing a second

35 right after I did well especially if you were doing it during the like early digital era like the difference between mini DV and film was night and day you know now digital and film look pretty close but it was did you find that the it was more the look and kind of romance of film that really excited you or was it um more the process you know the because i think that cadence that sort of stop reload pause per take you know that um you know the sort of electricity that kind of happens when everyone knows that there's money flying through the gate um that can be very uh alluring as well I think it's a combination for me, you know, I mean, I do love the look of film, obviously, and the texture and, you know, just, it's hard to explain it just so much more cinematic for me, you know, the way the person gets separated from the background and all of that.

And I know it's a lens combinations for that, but the texture really does that for me. But I also love the process of it. I mean, I played so much with filters, color filters, et cetera, to play on film and color about. balance and, you know, and you can see really the result until you see the print, you know. And this excitement for me is something I still find with still photography, you know, on film. The excitement when you get to see it because you couldn't see it on the moment. And you know you're experimenting a little bit, especially for me, I love colors. I really was going heavy on filters and all that. And seeing that the result came out as you expected or not and what happened, right, is so exciting for me.

That's, I love that process. And the song. Yeah. Oh, man. That's a sound, the sound of the film, because I shot a few shorts on 16mm. And the sound of the film popping out of the reel in the middle of a take is the worst feeling that. Oh, no. Do I say anything?

I'm really fascinated about filters, because I feel like filtration is kind of something that's dyed out. Most people are going to do all of their color stuff in post, and filtration has been left to either, you know, obviously, NDs or diffusion. What was exciting you about filtration, and do you see a place for it in digital cinematography? I still use filters heavily in digital cinematography, but it depends of the projects. because, for example, on the rookie that I just wrapped, it's a show, you know, where they don't want to be too much baked in camera, if they have anything to change in post, right? So they would rather you do a lot with the IT

and that they can take off if they need to, than putting filters in your camera. So the only filtration we were used on the rookie, for example, was just diffusion. So we use Blackmagics, Hollywood Blackmagics on this, actually. But in other projects where, you know, I can, I know there's not a lot of posts, and actually it's good to bake more the look in camera, which I love personally. So, you know, you know what you're aiming for, you're doing it, and, you know, that's how it's coming out. I love color filters.

I've been using a lot. Antixuid has been one I use a lot. Cyan. I've been using the chocolate filters and tobacco sometimes when you want to push it a bit more as well in the orange. But I haven't used too much like flaring filters or anything like that. You know, I would play more with lenses for that. But there's some filters like this too. And another go-to actually I still use a lot is Andigrat.

And it's not only... Yeah, I love those because it's not only about the sky. It's like sometimes, you know, you just can't flag this like white floor and you just put the endigride upside down and you just do your cut where you want. And I love those. For me, they work great. That's actually, I don't know why that's a mind-blowing thing. I have only thought of ND grads as sky management.

Of course, you can use it on the floor. I achieved that a lot, actually. I think I mostly use them for where I can't flag it. I can shape the light, so I just use my NDGRAs. That's so smart. That's why I love this project. But it has to be a shot, but it's luck. That's the only thing, right?

That's the problem. Otherwise, you get this, like, evil force flying up. What are you getting with the, like, because I can, for some reason, my brain accepts, like, antique suede, tobacco and stuff like that. But for a cyan color filter, how are you using that? I use it a lot for, you know, so the way you would want to stand to look warmer with anticsuit or, you know, a bit more vintage. While with cyan, for me, it gives more this freeler look, you know, where it's a, it's a

color scene and even the skin tone, you know, lose a little bit of the red on it. And it works really nicely with tungsten light too because the yellow becomes a little bit more this yellow greenish. You know what I mean? Like the dirty yellow. So it's literally just a base. Like it's, I really see the color filters as a base color you apply on everything and it affects every single colors in your frame, you know. So this is where you have to choose the thickness of it. You know, I often just. the number one because it's already pretty thick. But I have used number two where you like double it already, right?

And it's, you know, just have to make sure that everyone is on the same page that it's okay to do it because it is definitely big tip, you know. Yeah, the colorist is like, what the hell's going on? And pull out the sign on this one. But, yeah, no. But again, there's so many projects that go so fast in post that they don't have time to do proper colors or, you know, or that if you give them too much control, So then they completely changed the world like goal that you had with the loop for the show or anything like that. And again, it's a communication in pre-production.

Can we do that in camera, right? So for me, the filters are kind of your mini color corrections in cameras. And especially, again, if you don't have time in post. So I don't know. Yeah. Well, it's also, I mean, like you said, sometimes they don't let you. but if you don't have the time or ability to talk to your colorist before the thing goes out, that it's like, is it even your work at a certain point?

Like sometimes they'll go crazy and it's not what you shot, you know, especially with like windows and like really super targeted color correction. Like you can make anything look like anything at this point. I mean, if they just walk off of the log, right? I mean, really like you said, it could be just any movies and you could have two different movies with the same exact images but different colors and it changes the story fully. I mean, for me the colors and the tone of the film changes completely with the colors issues on it. Yeah. I don't know. I know a lot of people stop using color filters and cameras,

but I still feel very strongly about them. And I actually, I want to take time to do more testing on them and see what are the filters that should come out that haven't come out yet to help us maybe progress with the digital board and all that. And yeah, so I think that's I think that's totally smart because like especially nowadays because we've said this a bunch on this podcast, but like how most digital cameras, most professionals digital cameras all kind of look the same, especially if you get in the grade, you can get them all to match pretty well if you're looking for one consistent look. but, you know, in the same way that LED lighting, RGB isn't necessarily a supplement for gels because of the color response. You'd probably know how to explain this better, but because the color coming out of that is different.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, I was going to talk about gels, and it's exactly the same thing with RGB light. You're right. You can get really close in the colors you want, It's the same for color corrections and filters and cameras, right? But it will never have exactly the same effect, you know. I feel on the light and on the space, on the locations.

I'm thinking about the sodium vapors, jails, for example. And we use a lot like RGB lights to do some of your vapor looks on the show. But once it's on the light with a gel and when it's the RGV light, We always have a hard time to dial in exactly the color, you know, where you're consistent with your gel. You know what it's going to look like on that source, et cetera. In our GV, you have to dial in and it's never exactly the same, I swear. Yeah, well, and just the spectral output. Like, I've noticed that a lot of, like, especially in lower quality LED panels, you know,

suddenly like a nice gel on a tungsten light that looks great on skin. even technically the same, not white bounce, but you know what I mean, like the same setting makes the skin look shitty because like something, something has happened, the spectral output isn't the same. And I found that keynote flows really start, has really like done a great job of getting their colors to come out and look like excellent on their LED panels, but it took them 20 years after the sky panel came out or whatever for that, for them to like figure it out. Yeah, but I agree with you. I think that they're really, They're really getting there for sure.

Yeah, I mean, but then the practicality on set, depending on how fast you have to shoot or light, right, RGP is practical for that because, you know, you can place and you can kind of choose your colors fast, right? Where the gels, you need someone to maybe go up the ladder and switch it and try this one and try this one. Yeah, so. There's the guy with the gel wallet. Yes, no. Yes. You know, I literally do that.

I just, show me this one. It's like a version of this. production design show, you know. Everyone stop and watch Jeff. There you go, Jeff. You know, I was going to, well, I'll touch on that later. I was going to, I had a question about the rookie, but I did want to know, like, what were your cinematic influences growing up and especially now?

Because, like, I've mostly talked to Americans, but I don't, I don't know if I've had any, I've had a couple Europeans, actually. but were there any like specific European filmmakers that really inspired you or was it mostly American influences and or who were they all? Yeah. Well, I feel like a very bad French person now, but it was mostly American. We did invent it, you know? And I just like, I just feel bad because, you know, there's so many great French movies and

a lot of people are like, oh, you're French, you must know all the French films that were made and grew with them. And actually, I mostly grew up with American movies. Sure. No, I mean, this is the reason to why I moved to the U.S. and I wanted to start a carry here. I love French cinema. And you know what?

I love their stories. I love how should they get with the characters and how deep they get and they're not scared to say anything in their French movie, right? And I love that. But I feel in the American cinema, visually, we take a bit more risk on color, tones, you know, like boy, push it way. It's a bit more the same except some particular director

like Champier-Gernet goes really far on his looks, right? But in general, the French movies are a bit more even, you know, on what the visually. So ideally it would be a combination of both, right? And I'm like, well, I think I have the French spirit. I'm going to go to the US and try to combine both together. And it's kind of what I wanted to come here. But visually, it was more American cinema, but, you know.

Yeah. what were some of those films that were that kind of excited you about film? I think the film that really made me feel like I want to do cinematography was 5 o'clock. I love it. Really? Everyone gives me shit for saying that, but I agree. I'm the same way. Because you know what? Everything works in this film, and that shows you what's not only about cinematography. It has to be a combination of everything. And that film for me nailed every single level. And that's why I loved it so much for cinematography.

you know I I just the episode just came out but I just got to interview Jeff Cronin went and yeah I said that's why I had because he was there to talk about being the Ricardo's I made sure that I didn't just go on a tear asking questions about fight club and all of his stuff with David Fincher because I was like that's not why he's here he's not here to answer for the thousandth time yeah we used a lot of keynote no flow tubes, man. I don't know what to tell you. But yeah, the cinematography in that film, especially for like, what was it, 99? Like, it was like that in the Matrix were the two most mind-blowing visual films that came out right next to like, you know, 10 things I hate about you

or whatever. It was just such a, it's such a huge dichotomy. And that film is so pretty for how ugly it is. Exactly. And I think, you know, they, they really thought about each locations and each scenes, what they wanted to feel like, you know, even just inside the house. suddenly they go in this warm look right when Elena Bohan Carter is there and you know they just keep jumping from a look to the other because it makes sense story-wise and with this world double

I mean I don't want to spoil anything for you I think we can spoil it I think everyone saw it but yeah you know what I mean it's just it's such a psychological story when you think about it that they did that visually as well and just you know the scene on the bed the way they did the pictures and like it's so innovative the way they approach it and I love that well and and it really um keyed me on to how

important the cinematographers sort of dance with uh production design is yeah because like that paper street house is lit pretty simply you know it's just like tubes and maybe a tungsten somewhere but just the walls look like they're absolutely falling apart like they've had 20 years of newspapers just like past it onto the wall and stuff But that's, and that's the way you like get shaped. It's what's on the walls, right? What color is it? You're right.

It's so important, the collaboration with production designs to get the right lighting on your scenes. It's so important. Especially nowadays, the practical is being able to like light here in many ways. That makes me think of seven is like this too. The movie seven should bea Darius. Yes.

One of my favorite cinematographer. And, you know, he actually came to Paris a few years ago to talk about seven. You had a screening, and then he was explaining how he experimented with chemicals to develop this film and get this looks. And I just love the risks he took on this film, you know? And you need a risk to, like, get somewhere else, you know, visually, I think. And I love this kind of deepness that, but I'm sure the testing and all of that. But you know what I mean, that are not scared.

and are pushing the craft where they think it should go. And, yeah. Inspired with this kind of people. Yeah. What was he talking about, just like the ENR process or what, like, what was he doing? You know, it was years ago, and I wish I remember this. The excitement statement. But I was at the beginning of, I'm going to go to the U.S. I didn't recall it as much as I should have.

But yeah, he was talking about, I think, the type of chemical he used to get this specific development. I honestly I don't want to see anything specific because I don't remember exactly the conversation I'm I think it was what I like not bleach bypass but something like it like ENR which was like you could tune it in I think that's what they used on seven but I could yeah I have to look back into it actually I have that book of his that I had to buy actually I had to buy that from France the Darius conji like purple and yellow you know what I'm talking about no I don't think no I hold on a shoulder I got a whole this book oh i've you know i've seen but i've never i've never actually got a chance to hand on it

it's literally it's yeah it's half of it's in french and half of it's in english nice so like i think i think it's hopefully you know i haven't just i got this like a year ago and i still haven't read it which is really annoying of me but i'm hoping it's just english on one side of french on the other otherwise there's seven well you better start French yeah maybe that's how I'll learn

just look from side to side and be like okay you learn another things and more about his process yeah I did want to ask about the rookie because I actually used to work at ABC

in production management long time ago and that's when I really started to notice how that machine works, you know, but also because we had the shows on all the time in our, like in our bullpen, there was just TVs and playing whatever the shows, that there is kind of an ABC look.

And I was wondering if you could maybe elucidate that look. Is that something that's kind of mandated or is that like something that happens in post or how is that happening so uniformly? Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's a combination of a few things, right? So, you know, me and CalGio, the other DP of the rookie for this season four, when we came in, you know, we were like, okay, we want to try to make it a little more cinematic. And, you know, change a little bit of the loop, but, you know, you stay in a range where it's still the same show because it's season four, you have to be careful that it's still consistent. And I think what's happening is like, I think we went.

a bit more extreme on colors, on maybe moodiness as well this season, but there's something you have to keep. You still, you know, have a love dialogue for the scenes. You need to make sure you can see the faces and the two eyes of your actors. And I think that's, you know, kind of that's standard where you can just not see the face when they talk. So that's probably where it might be more network thing, where you have to make sure you actors really properly throughout the dialogue, right? I also think that we made a lot on set. We had a DIT onset. I feel like luckily this season in general,

it stayed consistent in colors when we then would go into color correction. It has a tendency to get a bit lift up, honestly, and a bit desaturated as well. But it really depends, I would say, of the episodes and the scenes. So I think it's because there's so many people going through that process in post. You know, you're not sure why it changes or not, but I think it's maybe they want to make sure it's consistent or that, you know, on the TV people, whatever kind of TV brightness you have, it works, or, you know, it's probably something like that.

We're still digging into it. In the chain, it starts. But, yeah, I, we found in general pretty happy that it didn't change too much from what we were trying to aim for the style of the show. this season but there's been some surprises sometimes yes yeah well because it's hard it's i suppose depends on who you are but it's easy to forget that abc is still disney and disney's the people that make marvel and those are incredibly consistent films like those somehow that everyone star war even star wars now like it all kinds of gets pushed into the look of that uh not genre but you know that that grouping of projects

which isn't a bad thing it's you know it's it i'm just fascinated by how that's achieved you know if there's kind of like a checklist where abc goes like you will only use these lights you know they have to be this far away you know no i think the bureau is to make sure you know you can but your actors look good obviously and that you can you can see the first like when they talk i mean two eyes that's the road yeah right right yeah uh that's actually a great question because i forgot to ask a couple people about this who worked in um television and in have that kind of same consideration. And that is, what are some tips for people to make sure that you're doing your actors

a favor, making them look their best, but not overdoing it, not making it, like, not drawing attention to itself? Well, first of all, you know, in our show, we have a huge range of skin toots. So you need to make sure you treat everyone for their skin toes. And it, you know, within the scene, because they all are together sometimes in the scene. So you have to make sure that the way you light, you know, it's going to work for each single of them. And they're all going to look good. We use a lot of, so we use diffusions in camera, but we also use light grid a lot.

And sometimes it's opal in front of the lights to make sure they look better. Sometimes we do like heavy, like a more light box where we like double diffuse the light more. So because the scene, it depends of how the background is lit too, right? So if the scene is like really soft light and a bit more low, then you want to make sure that the way the light hits the face is in like concordance with the way the room looks, right? So that's how we choose how we're going to light the face, but we always diffuse our lights.

And on darker skin tones, you don't want to just have a huge source on them. It's really about how they reflect, and that's how you want to light them. And then you have different range on darker skin tones. So you have to make sure how everyone reacts to. lighting. And we've been using actually a light grid, gray like grid. So it's gray on it. So it's cool. It's cooling down a little bit of the skin tone and it's really nice on darker skin tone. So we've been using that on the show as well. Interesting. I didn't even know they made a gray grid. I knew they made gray like overheads. But yeah, but they do find, but they do make

them. Yeah. And so this is something that has been mentioned here before, but talking about the reflectivity of darker skin tones, are you then using the sort of same, you know, whatever, eight by eight, whatever it may be, but then lowering the output so that it's more of a sort of reflective surface, or is it something, are you using more bounce in that case? Or how are you managing that? Yeah, again, it depends of the environment,

but yes, in general, you know, they don't need as much. It really depends of what's around them. Sure. Definitely, like, have a heavier diffusion in general. The source we're using more or less the same, but colors, we could change it a little bit too, depending on the color of the skin tone, you know. And, yeah, sometimes we just bounce if it's outside, you know, sometimes the reverse. Like, you know, if it's a really, really dark space, then they might need a little more

because there's no bounce in light whatsoever in the room. And outside, for example, we use a lot of polarizers. So that's really great on darker skin tones because you can choose the way it reflects, you know, and we use that a lot outside as well. So, yeah. Right. And the makeup crew has to be good at their job, too. I've seen some horror shows for people who didn't know how to deal with certain skin tones. Yeah, no, absolutely.

We, you know, we always talk with the makeup artists when we feel then there's an adjustment to be made or sometimes if it's too reflective or even for like lighter skin tones, right? and there's this new tendency of highlights, glowing highlights, that sometimes gets too much. And we don't know lighting-wise how to take it down because it just, it doesn't, I think, do the effects in cameras that they want it to do. So we communicate and we try to take it down a bit if we need to. Yeah. What is, you know, television is a pretty fast-paced medium. Is there anything that you've sort of learned working on that show that has helped you become a more efficient? cinematographer, like things that have kind of sped up your workflow without, you know,

making unnecessary compromises? Yeah, well, so we use, we use free cameras non-stop every day on this show. That'll help. Yeah, so you have to learn really fast how you're going to use your free cameras in an efficient way that it doesn't, you don't lose time trying to place them, you know, but they actually gain time for all the things you have to shoot. So you just find a system. Like, I think, you know, every DP can find their own system. I found a system that works for me. You always place a camera in general, you know, it would be a bit of your wider shot. And then I would often put B camera, you know, on something, not too off axis of A, but on a longer lens, for example, right? And then C camera would be more like maybe a free quarter or profile

shot that can still work lighting-wise as much as we can, you know, on that thing. And then, you know, on the next setup, then we get closer, and then SICAM does a more raking shot this time. And, you know, so you just find a system that works depending of how many characters you have in the scene. And you know, then you know how to light with that setup as well. And yeah, you kind of go from there. And then it's kind of a habit, you know, you know exactly where you should place your camera. You know how fast you can light it. And sometimes we've been cross-shooting as well.

It really depends on the situation. But if you have only two characters, this is, for me, this is where I'm like, okay, this could be a questioning situation. When you have more than two, it gets really tricky because the way you can place, you start catching each other's camera, trying to be more on an angle. So, yeah, yeah. There's always a camera that I get a little more compromised, lighting-wise, unfortunately, with free cameras. And this is where you have to find the balance of how much of access you can get or not. But yeah, we make it work. And I think, you know, we always make sure that it looks, you know, decent and good.

And yeah. There's a something. I've yet to shoot multicam. But I've always been fascinated by the idea of split comps. Like, because I'll use, I've used a split comp for, like, if I'm, you know, doing it, doing an industrial, doing like corporate shit where they want like a cool shot of their office or whatever. I'll just get the microphone here. and then in poe and then right before we cut i'll just move it away and then cut out the blank space and just paste it over where the and you can do that with anything like when i realized you could

do that with anything it's a game to like can't see cameras too close in whatever as long as no one's covering it just cut it out put it but i never get to do that it's hard for the sound department i mean you know we have talks all the time we've sound and they come to us and and they're like can we do another take where you stand on the A shot because it's too wide and we can get it for B and C, you know. And so we do okay, so let's do another pass, you know, we'll stand on A cam and so they can get in and get in the shot. But yeah, it's it's hard on them, the free cameras set up for sure, you know, and we're trying to help them as much as we can, but we also have, you know, it's a collaboration where everyone has to compromise a little bit

what we all need to do, you know. Yeah, I remember being on a shoot And the sound guy came up and he was like, he looked a little perturbed. And he goes like, there's, I can't get the microphone in anywhere. And the DP was like, see that slit? And there was like the space between these like two lights. And he goes, that's for you. And he go and I remember the sound guy going like, oh, he like ran over and stuck his thing. And he's like, this is great.

Hell yeah. That was a, that was a lesson. Yeah, no, it's definitely, we are sharing space with free cameras, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, geez. Yeah. Nightmare.

How did that affect you guys? You know, I mean, obviously we have the studio protocol of we've been testing three times a week and mask on N94 or 995. Sorry, and K, I forgot. KF 94. I like those ones better. They fit my face nicer. Yeah, yeah. A bit less fogging in the glasses too.

glasses too. But no, it affects us in the way we, you know, we showed in the desert recently and it was really hot. And when it's really hot, it's really hard to breathe, you know, and everyone sweats more and it's, I think it makes everyone a bit more grumpy. But at the same time, we had a really windy day where all the dust was coming in our face and everyone was really happy to wear their mask. You know, you have pros and cons. I think this year was probably not as bad as for them on season three where they had to wear the shield at the same time as the mask. That must have been something different, you know. But yeah, it just, you know, it's, you can't just eat and drink water on set anymore.

So you have to find time to step out. You know, they're like tracking you with the tile to see if someone tests positive. Then they call you and say you were close to that person for more than 15 minutes yesterday. So we need to double test you today. Wait, they have like tile, like the find your cell phone tile? Like small tiles that have a little tracker in it. And so you wear a new badge. Yeah.

And so they can review number. They can track what title was close to what tile, how long, what day, et cetera. So if someone tests positive, they can track who was close to that person. That's cool, but terrifying in any other context. I know. And I forgot to give back the tile at the end of there so many times it got with me home. Just let everyone keep it. Put it on their keychain or something.

I've got to give it back. Yeah, but yeah. No, it was a world system, you know. I mean, I think it's going to keep going for a little bit until they have to go to stop the mask and stuff. But, yeah. In our show, it stays strict till the end, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I can imagine. What was your shooting package on the rookie? Is it kind of just like Alexis and cooks? Yeah, so we use the Alexa Minis. So we actually had four bodies. We shoot free cameras, but we had four bodies. So we always had a body on the Ronan, kind of ready to go. So sometimes we could go fast between Ronan or handheld or CETICM or, you know.

And when we, on this show, we do double-ups. So sometimes two episodes overlap, right? So the last day of an episode would also be the first day of the next episode. This is where the other DP and I, we, like, shoot at the same time. And so what they do is that they give each of us two cameras. We would hire another crew for the fourth camera, and we just take two and two. So it's a machine for sure, you know, it's like, it's a system where you can just keep going. But so we use the engineer lenses, zooms, the easy zooms.

Yeah. And we had three of those. And then we had Panavision. Primos, the 11 to 1, and we have also 3-1. Yeah. So mostly zooms, it's very practical in television because we can get the next size really fast. You know, we can move faster. They look great too.

I mean, I've been really happy with the zooms. And we did use a little bit of primes for specific episodes. We used the P-Vintage, Panavision vintage. prime. Yeah, the really, really nice primes. We love them. So we use them for specific scenes in some episodes, but we didn't get a chance to use them very much, no. Was that for the look, or was that because they're just smaller and lighter? That was for the look. So there's two spinoffs. I think one already came out. And so we use them on the spin-offs episode, on the rookie. And we actually use them on the one I just finished number 22 for the last episode as well. Yeah. Yeah, were you a kind

of random question, but were you a fan of, um, uh, what's his name? The main actor. Oh, Nathan, Julian. Nathan, yeah, were you a fan of his before you got on the rookie? Because, you know, Adrisu's Firefly and even Castle had like pretty big, uh, fan, you know, fan bases. Yeah, no, I, I mean, I, uh, I didn't know him that much actually, to be fully honest. So I'm not really a fan person, but I admire people's work for sure. So I, you know, I heard a lot about him and I was very excited to work with him. But I was not super familiar with him before, no. Sure.

Because it was funny when I was at ABC, that was like prime castle time. And it was funny when the rookie first came out because I was like, wait a minute. They just, that conversation had to be like, yeah, I like doing a cop show. We'll make you another cop show. You have another one, bud. He's accurate. Yeah. What do you got?

I was looking at your real and, you know, A, the stuff in the rookie fits, like, the stuff that you've put in there, you know, fits really nicely with your other narrative work. Are you doing like commercials and short still? Or you kind of focus mainly on the show right now? No, I, I mean, I've done so the things in my real actually are from season two. So I was on season two on the rookie, but I was not a main DP. I was a double-up DP, an additional photography. So all the scenes that are my wheels, scenes that I shot when I was calling to DP on the show.

And I was not part of season three, and I was part as a main DP on season four. So I've done, you know, shorts in between. I haven't done a lot of commercials, but I'm definitely looking to get a bit more into that work. And yeah, and I might have some features coming up. So we'll see. Yeah, because the Something that's kind of been mentioned a lot I spent a lot of time getting my reel

Like dialed in to where it looked really cool And then I started doing these podcasts And a bunch of TPs were like Eh, no one cares about your reel It's just your last project and I was like Oh, come on I was I was kind of asked to take it down So I just haven't had time to take care of my website

I was advised to actually take out the reel of the website So I don't know if it's It's so interesting. I mean, it's a great looking real. It's it, but I guess just no one, I'm just wondering what the utility is now. Because like cinematographers are probably the only people that are real,

like a directing reel doesn't make any sense. Like an editing reel is confusing to me. Like how do you, you know, show that. Yeah, because you're a talk about. Yeah,

but we have, so I don't know. I find reals fun. I guess I'm just bummed that like to hear that like everyone thinks they're, you know, passe now or whatever. Yeah, maybe I think I might keep it and just put it, not on the front

page, but probably more in the about thing or something, you know, but yeah, I always function with my real, but yeah, I guess, I guess it's not part of this word anymore. No, people said you don't need a real. Yeah. Do you, are you, are you, are you like represent, do you have like an agent or whatever?

Yes, and we've innovative artists. Gotcha. So how, was that transition from going to, I assume, freelance to being represented? Was that like a big change? Has that helped you in really appreciable ways? Or is it more of a convenience? You know, I just switched to innovative artists recently, actually, a few months ago. So they've been amazing so far. And we've had great talks and about, you know, the goals. And I feel like it's an agency that's definitely going to help me pursue my dreams, you know, which is, I think, why you want to go in an agency, that they help you go, like to go where you want to go.

I had, I had a previous agency before them that it didn't go so well. So the previous experiment was not great. Gotcha. So it really depends of your agents, you know, I would say that's, that's why it's about. It's about how much have they actually going to care about you and really want to help you. And that's what makes a difference about agency. like if it's just to have an agent doesn't make any sense it's about what what is it how is it going to help you for your career in your future you know right yeah so are they taking the only reason

of asking is because it's something that like comes up a lot is like does that everyone wants to know how there's how they're going to get the next job you know so the agent always seems like well do i do i do i bother trying to find one like at what point at what point does that seem uh in your career is there like a point where you go like all right i've done enough work that's this makes sense? Or is there like a skill level that you feel you hit? And then you're like, oh, it's time or is it more just like you get a job that's big enough that you're like, all right, I'm now playing in this realm. Yeah, I think when you turn union and the level of union jobs money wise too and the way the budgets are handled, you kind of have to

go for an agency because they're the ones that hear about the jobs and that really can be pitch with. So they know everything about that word and the TV shows and even the bigger union features. And so if you want to get into that range, then it's better to have an agency because they're the one who are going to pitch you for that. And obviously, negotiate for you as well. This is something you should not do yourself. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are some things that kind of excite you about where cinematography is heading? Because it feels like every day there's a new announcement about some gear, new, you know, someone pushing the boundaries, you know, like everything everywhere all at once.

I don't know if you've seen that yet, but that seems like a very... Oh, yes, but it's a video on my list, I want to see it, yeah. It's like, I've described it as the antidote to monotony. Like, it literally is everything, like it's every genre, every style of cinematography. I interviewed Larkin about it the other day, and it's really fun to see what they did was such a low budget, too. Not that it was super low budget, but they, it doesn't look like 15. But yeah, like, what's what's kind of exciting you about, about cinematography? Are you much of a gear person at all?

You know, funny enough, no, actually. I mean, I love gear. I always search a lot about gear when I need something specific. And that's how I find my gear. You know what I mean? But I wouldn't be the one, you know, gicking on my computer on my off time, looking for the new thing coming out. And I feel bad about it, you know, I just, I think I'm more,

I'm more like the creative abstract person that when I need a specific thing to do something specific visually, then I look, how can I do that? And I find it right here. Yeah. It's always the story person in the gear. Yeah. Well, I feel like I do it compulsively because I grew up as a huge nerd and then became creative later. So like now I will spend my spare time almost absent-mindedly just keeping up with that kind of stuff not that it matters to me but it's just like a habit like I can't get rid of it

I should be looking at photo books or something but instead I'm like I should be looking more here but yeah in that case then visually like is there any is there anyone whose work is kind of like got you excited at the moment

I have any shows or anything what do I watch I mean I've been worried to watch euphoria season two i watch season one but i still haven't had time to watch isn't two this kind of show visually like for me are awesome i love watching them and i love how they explore the characters visually you know so this kind of show i love it uh but also like what did i watch a few months ago um a mayor of eastern i love that show i mean again it's all for me it's all like stories that are very strong character wise you know and and i love this kind of

of story and it's a bit of a bit of a psychological thriller a little bit, you know, I, I find them very interesting. Anything that pushes a look and a tone that supports the inside of a character and, like, makes you understand how they feel is something that I love watching, yeah, and doing, actually. Yeah, well, so how do you, this is going to be like a two-part question, not to be the Q and A guy. Oh, man. I was at the, I was at the, uh, yeah, I'm sure you sat in on a Q&A. There's, I saw this. It was like a meme, but it had a list of all of the Q&A questions. And I actually, I went to the everything everywhere premiere. And it was, you know, the Q&As were great. Everyone was like doing it was fine. Everything was good. Last guy, right? We've been doing

this Q&A for like an hour. Last guy goes, um, this is more of a comment than a question. And I heard like 10 people audibly grown. this fucking guy but yeah anyways this is too part but how do you sort of work that muscle out of knowing how to

how to show the inside of someone because it is something that is not I think it's not a technical skill it's not like oh when someone feels sad you light them with blue you know check it's a feeling and it's something I've talked a lot on this podcast is like how important going with your feeling is than a technically correct answer to a scene.

It's actually a very difficult question because I mostly just go with my guts, you know, and it's, I've never actually really had to explain how I know what's the right look. Exactly. I love the question, though. for me and this is really where I always I go deep in the story

and the characters and you know a lot of people I'm like I'm surprised you're not asking me what camera you want to shoot on or whatever it's like I need to understand

how we're going to do it and how like visually what are we aiming for character wise because that's how I'm going to choose my camera and my lenses you know I think for me

it's like we talk And as we talk, I start to have like images in my head. And then I am a huge fan of visual references. I always do look books. And so instead of trying to describe the images I sees, then I go online. And like I use a, right now I'm using a website called Shot Deck. I know if you heard that.

Shot deck's amazing. I love it. I was like, ah, do I want to pay for the subscription every month? And I totally did it and I love it. Yep, I do it too. Yeah. So it's invaluable. Key words.

And like, I love that. So I started doing that and I put this little book there and then I go back to the director and I'm like, that's how I see it, you know? And they're like, yes, that's great, great. I're like, ah, not too much like this. And then we go back and like we resurgence. But, you know, it's I really, I can talk with words. I talk with images. And that's really how.

So as we talk the story and the characters, I get ideas of colors. It's often colors or tones or some things. And then I go deep to find the words of what I say. in my head, which is images, right? And then I bring that, and then we talk about it. Well, we like about this feeling or that feeling. And I'm talking more about the tone and lighting right now, but funny enough, when I find these references, there's a lot of framings that actually pop in that lightings that I like

and that also inspire that. But, yeah, I mean, story wise, you know, when I read the line and, you know, it says, like, she was looking outside and she felt like, Like, you know, that was the last thing she was ever going to see. Like, I know for me that's right in images where you probably just want to be on the angle of the eyes. We've seen the eyelashes and just in her eyes and maybe seeing the reflection of the word in the eyes. Like that's how I would describe this line. I don't know.

You know, and it's just like you, as you hear it, you see it. But it's all personal and it's an abstract. Right. It's just a feeling. So it's very hard to describe it. But good question. No, I mean, that's exactly why. I asked it because it's one thing, I'm leaning on you and other DPs to attempt to describe it

because it's the one thing that's hard to describe. It's the one thing that you can't explain that is so important to cinematography is like you got into, I can't remember who said this, maybe Fincher, got too many of his quotes banging around in my head, but it's like you got into filmmaking because you had good taste. You just didn't know how to execute it well. And then once you learn how to execute it, you know, once you learn the gear, once you learn the tool set, that falls away. And then you can hopefully just go from idea or feeling to execution without thinking too hard about the construction of it. You know, the construction is inherent in the job, but it's not the job.

It's not, no one's there to watch you light it. They're there to see the end product, you know. No, it's true. Yeah, we know, and this is where the biggest thing I learned as a DP, as I was growing in, that happened at the FI, actually. I didn't come in with a lot of confidence. And I let people tell me what to do instead of doing what I was feeling was right. And this is where I made my worst films.

Yes, yes. Not your worst films. I'm agreeing with you, but no, I was there. They were your worst. And, you know, my first cycle I was the worst thing I ever shot probably. And I got completely destroyed by my teachers. And I'm glad that it did because it was a wake-up. It was like, stop doing what people tell you to do.

Just do what you know is probably right for you department. You know what I mean? Always in collaboration, of course. But that changed a lot to me. I always tell myself, trust your eyes or trust your guts, you know. And sometimes you can win these battles because if the director wants something very specific and you don't this, they have the last word, you know, this is, you know, the director. But it's, it's worth it to show them. Sometimes I'm like, can I just show you?

And I just move the camera. And because they're like, are you sure you don't think that's right? And sometimes they're so stuck on the film and say like, no. But, you know, sometimes it happens. And it's like, oh, yeah, I know what you mean now because they see it, you know? And so you have to trust yourself. And I think this is where maybe they'll never replace us by robots, because you can't even make it. Yeah.

Maybe they're going to be replaced with us. I saw a photo of like, it was part of some, I want to say like Xerox. It was some computer company in the 70s had like a manual. And it said like, I can't remember what it said. So this is a bad example. But it was something along the lines of, you know, a robot is not a human. So no executive decision should be made by a robot. it's like that's yes that's the answer like robots are tools they're not they're not they should

not be giving us advice you know a script by AI you know checkbox like yes it has this this this this it's going to make us money we'll never no one will ever enjoy that because it has no feeling yeah that's the thing it's like oh it all be the same right i mean how do you get the diversity of things if it's the same machine that makes it yeah yeah well and it's but the thing about confidence you're saying is so true like that's and it's another skill that you can't google you know like it's happy i guess confidence isn't really a skill but it's a thing that you can't learn you just kind of do enough and fail enough that like failure is no longer scary i guess is that what confidence is probably but you know you're right i think you have to fail

to succeed it's kind of a cliche sentence maybe but i I don't think I would have, be able to rebuild if I hadn't gone down. You know what I mean? Like, it's a reset a little bit, and you start rethinking things differently. And you start knowing how to actually talk to people. If you need to really express something that feels right to you, then you know better how to express it instead of feeling sorry for yourself, you know. But maybe, you know, you have to talk loud, especially on set.

You know, you have a crew. Like, we had such a big camera department on the rookie. if you're not clear and you don't communicate clearly things, they are not happening, you know? And so it's scary at the beginning, and then you just get into it and you start doing it. But yeah. Yeah.

Oh, actually, I was going to ask that earlier, but thanks for reminding me. What were some of the differences you noticed in the workflow of shooting kind of a major corporate show, or not corporate show, but one of those shows versus doing something more independent? Was it basically, the same thing just at a larger scale or where there's sort of differences that you really picked

up on? No, definitely very, very different. And it's just another type of shooting it, right? I mean, when you think about it, it's on a network TV show like this, you know, there's so much work. Yeah, network. Yeah. There's so much work to do in a small amount of time.

So our episodes, they're 42 minutes, but the scripts are about 55, 60 pages, and we shoot that in nine days. So it goes fast. And we're not, you know, we're on locations. We know we have night exteriors. We have company moves during the day. So that takes time. So like, we're not in one place per day. Like we, you know, so you have to make your days and you can make days that are too long.

everyone's exhausted and it gets too expensive. So you have to shoot the best you can do story within the time you have. And that's the approach where I feel, so it's about efficiency, but quality and efficiency, right? Where, I mean, it's the same on something indie, but I feel you have a bit more control on, you have a bit more control on the setups because you don't need as much coverage probably, right? This is also a thing that changes a lot on the network TV show. You have more characters, you need more coverage. Where in any film where there's less characters, you probably like, you know, can choose more each set and set up.

But you also have often only one cameras and not free. Right. So it's you closer to you images on an indie thing for me than on a network TV show. I feel like on your GP on a network TV show, you need to be a strong, like you have your ideas visually and you're a strong manager. But you're your own manager on an indie project. Yes, yes. And it does make a huge difference because it takes a lot of you to manage so much on a big set like this, right?

Where sometimes I feel this energy when I just have to put it with myself on the one camera. I think it's different. I can put it in something else, you know. So, yeah. But they're both like great formats, you know, it's just, it's just very different. And you're getting in working different when you do one or the other. Yeah. Yeah, that management skill is definitely something that I know, even just going from like small indie to larger indie or even like small indie to really anytime you add crew, you need to be a bet like an exponentially better manager.

And that's, yeah, that's definitely a soft skill. But they don't really, they didn't teach us that in film school. I was just going to say that don't teach you about that AFI. You know, maybe we talked about a two cameras set up, you know, a few times. But that's another level. Like, you know, when I feel like, you know, we teach you how to be a DP, but what you didn't know is that being a DDP is 50% being a manager. And no one teaches you that, you know.

And politics. How do you handle politics on set with so many executives? behind and like it's it's it's really your hands-on like learning experience when you go through it and it's how you're going to handle it and how you're going to manage it you know stress level I mean this it's it's a lot of responsibility to get each day done because you don't have a second to breathe honestly like yeah I yeah really good to craft me yeah probably never I like when they have the people that just bring you snacks.

They just come around and go, here, you have this. You're like, hell, yeah. But that's where we've covered, right? Doesn't happen. Oh, yeah. Now that, fuck. Ruined everything. I actually found there's a book called Extreme Ownership, which is written by this Navy SEAL

named Jock Wilnick. So really, really American man book. But he led SEAL teams, and he now does like business consulting for leadership. And I found that book was actually really helpful in dealing with not only crews, but like you're saying, like corporate types and like talking with and understanding how to make that conversation pipeline cohesive and make sure everyone feels heard, but also like getting stuff done. I found that was a very valuable book. I actually wanted to ask you before we kind of wrap it up. You had mentioned night exteriors. I'm actually shooting a spec ad later in a week or something.

to completely night exteriors but it's in black and white so that's going to help us out a little bit but yeah i've spent like a week developing this let that i can actually show you the let but um yeah i want to see i'll show you the let yeah uh it's not really made for this particular situation but it's this look this kind of like okay that's cool so really like pretty contrasty go high yeah but then dim yeah like i kind of like i like what's happening here here with the skin where it's like yeah and I can feel just a kick on the left side when you rotate your head a little bit towards there right there yeah if you rotate the other way yeah right there you see just on the side yeah and then

you have a darker side on the left side and then right on the right I like it yeah so that's that's that's my current lot but I was gonna ask any advice for shooting a night exterior on a low budget I would pick the location really well, you know? What is as it looked like naturally by night? So especially if you go black and white, you need contrast, but also wherever, you know, your characters are going to stand. They're going to be too little bit lit or at least in a lot of practical environment. So pick the location because no budget, that's what you have, right? You can have a condor and a R.E. Max on it. You know what sucks is we had this great location. It looks like an old town, like old German

town in Huntington Beach. It's like a shopping mall, but people live there. It's very strange. But we were like, oh, this will be perfect because it was, it's supposed to be like this perfume ad that then turns into a bit of more of a comedy. But it's supposed to be that classic, like really strange, you know, perfume ads don't make any sense. I love it.

Yeah. Yeah, just super abstract silliness. And so we're going to do that. And then the HOA voted against us filming there. And we were like, we're only going to be there for like three hours. Also, why is the HOA involved? And it's because people live there. It's the strangest thing.

But, yeah. But I will also, like, check what the actors is going to wear, or actress is going to wear. Because in black and white, I was thinking about black and white, you know, and what skin tones they have. So, like, if the darker skin tone, have them wearing something lighter, right, and vice versa. And if it's against the wall, what color of the world is?

It's got to be a white wall, black ball. And, yeah, locations, like, costume. And I don't know how much budget you have, what lights you can bring, but I would just, you know, make sure, have something for the faces. And yeah. We have a decent lighting budget. I was just thinking of getting like a, it sounds dumb, but just getting like an eight by just right out of frame and hitting it. And Bennett actually was telling me like that might not, that might be too diffuse for. Yeah.

That's the thing with black and white. I showed a feature in black and white. And the way we did it is with the portion designer, we did this. wheel of color and the match and the side the bend on the side was the correspondence of black and white so if you know the color palette you're going to be shooting i would definitely do the match in black and white just to see how it reads so when we want to light of things we pick the color like if you look at the thing in color it makes no fucking sense like i said the movie in colors is awful but we literally pick colors that how they were going to read in black and white and so like

that's that would be something i would look at a new location, you know, what is going to read like what, you know? Yeah, no, that's, that's how I ended up. Oh, no. Hold on. Hold on. Sorry about that. My, my laptop was like, oh, your battery's dying. It's like, how it's plugged in. It was like ever so not plugged. Um, yes. Uh, that actually an AI made that I like uploaded a photo and then it made that little painting. Um, but yeah, that's how That's how I ended up making that lot was like getting a color chart and like deciding like, all right, I want these to be dark, these to be light, these to be dark, like next to my face. But yeah, we've got one guy who's very dark skin tone and then we've got a girl who's very light skin tone.

And I had this idea of putting him in like a charcoal suit and her in like white and just trying to like you were saying like put them against like opposite, you know, backgrounds and stuff. But the lighting has been sketching me out because I'm like, do I just float a giant. China ball above them and like kind of do it because it's a perfume ad so like we can get away with being a little but you probably want more like harder like contrastic because in black and white that's pretty so so you probably also want like lights and again I have no idea of your backgrounds and anything like that but where you can do like slashes so you separate you know dark and white and dark and white and gray's range right so I would I would plan like lights for the background to make it texture and interesting in this kind of French because by

night everything is dark you know so yeah yeah yeah we were also thinking of me of just having like little like what are called LED throwies which is just like an LED like an oh an original LED you know that little dome you sandwich a like a watch battery and tape it and it just turns on and then if you put it like a magnet on that you can just throw it and stick it to things it's like an old graffiti trick but you can just put little interesting point lights wherever you're want. Yeah, I love that. I think it's all about texture and lights, right, in black and white.

So I think you just play as much as you can with that, and depending on location you have. And yeah, it's all about why your eye is going to be drawn too, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, but it's the first time I've ever had to do exclusively night exteriors. Usually it's like, oh, we'll just get through this. It's only like one part of the show or whatever. And now it's like the whole thing.

it was like, so you chose for your like first like spec ad, you chose night exterior with no budget? And I was like, yeah. But you know, then I'm dumb. In everything I showed and especially with the rookie as well, nine externs have been my favorite. I love that word because really, it's a black canvas. So you get to start from kind of scratch and just like what you want, right? It's like, you really feel like it's a black paper. But there are, if you start erasing parts, you know, so like suddenly you have like a bit of bushes showing and a bit of this and that. you know and I don't know I love it so you can pick in colors too you can have all the colors you want so yeah that's true yeah or like or everyone I bet you too the esteratubes yes everyone

uses these stair tubes you just put them places you're like those are our practice every I feel like there's more fluorescent quote unquote fluorescent fixtures in movies and TV shows now because everyone wants to use the astere tubes so like how do we sell that oh I guess this entire house lit by four bank fluorescent. They are for sure, yeah. But yeah.

They're so expensive. So we had to keep them limited on our production. Yeah, that's like what? Like eight grand for a case? It's pretty expensive. I forgot how much it is. But I'm out of this.

Well, I got to let you go here. But I like ending the podcast with the same two questions, although it's harder with a TV show. Normally, the first question is, if you were to have a double feature, what would the second film be? But we're kind of talking more about a TV show. But let's say, like, if the rookie, your favorite episode of the rookie had to have a counterpoint,

how would you program that double feature? What do you mean by cornerpoint? Sorry, I'm not sure. Oh, just like what, because there's two ways to, think about it, right? Like, either something that's complimentary to the rookie or something that maybe puts you in a different mindset

in a way that you find interesting. There's really, there's no like wrong answer. Something really different from the rookie, you mean? Where it is? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Probably be a very dark horror TV show. Just the exorcist opening for the rookie.

That was Cronin let's answer. He goes alien versus predator right before being the Ricardo's yeah a nice horror tissue I don't even have

you know like actually I watch that this this was this was really hard like an awkward really hard to watch a TV show them is that them right

the name of the TV show on Amazon yeah but I thought like the way they approached it visually was intense I liked it visually very much yeah it was really good

yeah that shows something like that would be a good contrabalance with the rookie yeah but that them and they have a couple shows that you sure there's a show called he just the us that's from oh there is us yeah oh actually uh what's the name of the first feature i did i love this with a jordan p.l but the oh man get out get out like get out with it's not a tv show have you seen the trailer for his new movie i haven't i think what is it it's just called nope it's about like it looks like it's about like evil aliens coming and abducting people and it's just it's like the trailer shows everyone getting abducted and shit and

it just goes nope oh i love it's like yep it's just going to keep going on that range of titles it's great yeah uh second question uh if do you have sort of, have you read or received a piece of advice or something like that that has stuck with you through your career that you think has made you a better artist or filmmaker? Actually, I have, yeah, it's when you said one of my teacher at AIFI, Bill Dill, when he saw my first cycle and it was a disaster, at the end of the class after I was ripped apart, he came to get me and he was like, you know, when things get out of control on set and you're losing completely you completely out of control on what you're trying to do. It says, go in the

restrooms, turn the lights off, and just breathe. And then we think how this should look like and come back out and do that. And you know what? I don't, I mean, I don't especially go in the restaurant and turn the lights off. But I step, like, sometimes I'm like, I need to take some air. I step out. I breathe. I cam down and I'm like, okay, this is what we need to do. And I go back in. So take a breath when you need to take it, because you can ready recenter and it can make a huge difference in the next hour, I swear. This is the biggest advice I think I've been using since the beginning. Yeah.

You know, that's incredible. Yeah, 100%. The worst thing is if you need to make a decision based on time and you see the clock ticking away, you can really get in this loop of, oh, no, I don't have enough time. Oh, no, I need to work quickly. And then you won't make any decision. You'll just sit there freaking out. And it's way better to literally stop and give it 10, 20 seconds, half a minute, whatever,

than to wait and watch the clock go down and freak out. But all I think about is the clock, right? You don't even think about what you need to be thinking about. Yeah. No, absolutely. It gets very chaotic, real fast on set, and in general, in the film industry, right? Because it is a stressful job. And it is a lot of responsibility to get so much in such a small amount of time.

But taking this two, five minutes outside to re-center, we'll make a huge. huge difference. And people are afraid to step out. You should step out. Yeah. Yeah, that's the old Roger Deakin's thing, as he said, he would, whenever he would freak out, he would just put his eye in the eyepiece and pretend he was doing something. It's like, we don't have eyepieces anymore. Like, I guess the Alexa does. But like, yeah, most of the time you don't get an eyepiece. You get a monitor. So you don't get to do this. And also, everyone knows that you're full of shit because they can all see the monitors. You're like, no.

She's going to be able. Like, when do you do it? Yeah, it's like the camera's not even on. Shhh. Yeah, well, thank you so much for spending the time with me. I had a lot of fun, and that was a really great conversation. Thank you so much, Ken. I really appreciate it. It was great. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition.

Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly in the The F-At-R Matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.