Frame & Reference Podcast - 62: "The Flight Attendant" Director Pete Chatmon

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with director Pete Chatmon about the HBO MAX series "The Flight Attendant." Pete has a long list of credits including episodes of "Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia", "Black-ish" and "You" to name just a few. Enjoy the episode! Check out Petes podcast "Lets Shoot!" Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with Pete Chapman, who directed an episode of this season, the second season, of the flight attendant. we actually have another director of the flight attendant coming up as well so we got a big flight attendant rip Pete's rad this conversation was very cool because we I don't tend to talk to a lot of directors but you know like I said at the beginning of this season of frame and reference I was going to welcome the challenge and so me and Pete really got to talk a lot about I guess the artistic psychology of filmmaking, if that makes any sense.

It's just a very arty, I suppose, little headier podcast, which was a lot of fun. Took me a minute to, it was kind of funny because it was a little tired, so it took me a minute to get there, but it was something I'd been thinking about a lot, or just a series of things that I'd been thinking about a lot. So we got on a nice little rip there. And I think we had some fun. Also, Pete has a podcast similar to this one called Let's Shoot with Pete Chapman. And he just recently interviewed Kayla Cuoco.

So you get even more flight attendant, if you haven't seen it. What else? You can vote for the flight attendant if you're an Emmy voter. And yeah, so that's that. I'll leave you to it. It's a real fun one. Like I said, very artsy. and really cool, and Pete's rad, and you guys are rad.

So I'll let you get to it, and so here you go. This is my conversation with Pete Chappen. So the way that we actually usually start the podcast is just by asking about how you got into filmmaking, obviously is a cinematography, but were you always a creative person, where you kind of like a theater school kind of kid, or was it, did you come to it later in life?

You know, well, first, Kenny, thanks for having me on the podcast, man. It's an honor. I appreciate it. And, you know, I first got into filmmaking, storytelling. You know, I'll never claim to be a cinematographer, but I have shot things. But I picked it up in 11th grade in high school. I had a, we were fortunate in the community I lived in. we had a Super 8 filmmaking course. We had a black and white photography course, both of which

we developed our own film in the class. And then we had the local public access TV station or TV studio in the high school. And so I got to try in 11th grade, and I just gravitated toward it, coupled with having seen do the right thing and kind of getting a little bit of an early exposure to, um, you know, I hate the pretentiousness of it, but like films versus movies, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and I don't think that's pretentious anymore. I think that's, I think that's a nowadays especially, that's a like an important distinction. Hmm. Yeah. And we can get into that, but sorry. Yeah. No, no. I mean, you know, it's it's, it's, it's right. It has evolved over time, you know, but it's a, you know, I came up watching, you know,

Koyana's Katsi on Laserdisc, you know what I mean? So like I got a particular sensibility. But yeah, man, like I remember I had an assignment where it was pretty much just take the camera out and shoot something and I had my girlfriend at the time, she was my actor all the time. And we had, I had her come down from the train platform in South Orange, New Jersey, where I grew up.

And then, so it was like she got off the train. And then she came down the platform and got on, I picked up a pay phone. So I'm dating myself. And I had her get off the train, go through the door toward the steps. And then I did like this tilt down off of the Bell Atlantic sign as she walked up to the phone. And the teacher gave me such accolades on like the condensing of time. And I don't even know why I was like that's the way to do it because like most everybody else would have been like, hand on the doorknob, walks down 24 stairs, walks through the lobby, comes outside the other door. You know what I mean?

It would have been like a shot of the feet walking. Shot of the feet walking. Yeah. So that little. Homeless person. Yeah. That little bit of like, you know, that was a good choice kind of made me say, oh, word. you know and I never stopped yeah it's uh that that early I went to a New York Film

Academy in in LA before I went to college and they had this whole list of rules about what you couldn't couldn't shoot and none of it was content based it was all like no single red grows no briefcase full of cocaine no homeless people no you know it's just all these things that they'd seen a thousand times like right none of that montaging of like just fucking put all 19 shots into one shot. You don't need to explain this. I just saw Jurassic World and they did not follow those rules. A lot of close of unnecessary feet. You can choose to if you want. You know, AMCA A list, go for it. There you go. All right. All right. Talk to me about your experience in the dark room because everyone who's worked with photographic film, I mean, developing your own Super 8 is

definitely interesting. But the sort of meditative experience in the dark Did you really gravitate towards that, or was that kind of an obstacle to getting the final image? I gravitated toward it. I thought, like, you know, there's a connection to what, there's a heightened connection to what you're doing because you are now a cog in its delivery, you know what I'm saying? And so if you do it wrong, like, it's going to be wrong. So it kind of, it just, so there's that part of it. And then it also, like, when you do come out of the lab and you're like, oh, this is totally under exposed, like, you're going to be listening to why.

You know what I mean? Because I do think there's this thing that I've noticed, because I taught at NYU for years as well, like where when it became possible to just hit record and have four kids. pristine footage, and then also the ability to time it later. And, you know, I mean, I feel like a lot of the, a lot of the craft kind of evaporated in the sense of understanding what's happening. And I think, I've gotten tangential, but I think that's kind of the... That's this podcast. You know, I think that to me is the biggest thing, like, like as a director, when I talk to

folks, I'm like, if you understand what everybody's doing, then you have, then you really can become a storyteller. And then you also can avoid being like railroaded into someone else's either taste or inexperience. Because there's a lot of times people tell you, oh, you can't shoot that like that like that. I shot some shit like that last week. It fucking works. You know what I mean? And matter, like I actually just did that in a show and and the scripts if I was like, I don't think that's going to work. I was like, I literally did this in another episode of TV and it was dope. It's going to, it may make you uneasy, but it works. So I love, I love being connected to the, to the, the, the, uh, the tactical, not tactical, but

the tactility. The tactility. You know what I mean? I like that because I think that's how you, I think that's how it should be. Yeah, that, um, risk aversion. seems to be a lot more prevalent now in filmmaking, you know, whether it be the script supervisor or probably producers. They all seem to, and this goes like, I don't really shoot much narrative yet, but even, you know, down to commercials and dumb shit you might shoot for the internet for companies, they all have this idea of what they want. And it's usually three different things that they've seen elsewhere that don't jive. And then they're like, we want, we need all of that here. And you're like, you've asked for three things. I'm like, I do it. And then they get it

back and they're like, why does this look boring? Right. Right. Like, because you safetyed the hell out of it. Like, it's too dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not lying. Have you, thank you, calendar. Have you noticed in your line work? Because you've had your hand in quite a lot of really great television recently. And I was wondering if you've, what those kind of of those risk averse or maybe not conversations have been like, does it feel like, because from the outside, it does seem like television especially is starting to become much more interesting. And I'm wondering if those conversations are still happening or is there just like kind of a better meeting at the beginning of what you're all going for? Kind of like, what

does that behind the scenes look like for you guys these days? Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, first and foremost, like it's the thing for directors who enter television from other mediums, there's got to be a pivot in understanding the nature of television, right? Which is like, you know, like I'm developing things, right? And like, you know, in two years when this thing is going to production, I am not looking for some director to tell me how it needs to be shot. because I figured that out two years ago. You know what I mean? And so like, so when I like learning that

and embracing that is kind of freeing. So a lot of times like I just study and study to make sure I understand what the show is. And then I kind of, so that's kind of first. Then I try and put myself or find myself in the story. So I'm not just some kind of hired hand. Like there's got to be something that I can connect to. And I remember when I was doing,

more branded content work. I don't know where I saw this with George Stephanopoulos, you know, formerly of the Clinton White House and the cabinet was like talking about doing all these interviews and these kind of different types of pieces on Good Morning America.

And he was like, I got to just find one thing I'm really interested in in everybody I talk to. And then I can be engaged. And so, you know, for TV, it's like if I'm on a show or if I'm if I get an episode of a show that's kind of like this is our you know kind of I don't want to say I don't want to say standard because that's that's minimized but this is like what people expect of our show and it could be

you know pretty straightforward that I'm going to give you a pretty straightforward episode yeah you know what I mean but if I get an episode that has that's calling on me to do more creative things and I'm going to go to town and I'm always going to try and push a little bit to see how how much you know new creative language the episode can withstand but I'm always going to know like look if they don't if they don't like this and I or they don't want this cool and so a lot of times I'll cover myself so like I think about like I did I did two episodes of love life last summer. And in the first episode I did, which was episode two,

at the end of it, I was like, man, this is like, you know, this is just for me, but I asked William Jackson Harper if he would just look at the lens, you know, just spike the lens, go right into the camera as I do this slow push, but like wait about three beats and then do it. And I snuck it in, no one knew I did it. I put it in my cut and it made it to air.

You know what I mean? And so like, but I, but they had four takes of, you know, not bringing the fourth wall. Yeah. Yeah. There's that Spike Lee influence too. Yeah. Dude, they made us watch do the right thing like every other class at Arizona State. That was like for some reason, that was the one.

It's really a, I mean, it, it holds up, man. It holds up. It's a, and you know what's funny. It's probably better. I used to complain about that film. I used to like, you know, fuck, because they made us watch it a bunch of times. But I realized the reason that I was mainly complaining at first was because I didn't get it. The first two times I saw it didn't get it.

I was just like, everyone's angry. No one's having a good time. Like, I hate this. You know, but I was coming from my upbringing was very much more in movies, as you said. You know, men black, your Matrix, your fight club, I guess you could argue either way. But like, you know, stuff like that. that was a little more fantasy. I was much more in the fantasy realm.

So a movie about, you know, a city kind of imploding in on itself or a neighbor, you know, a neighborhood or whatever. I was just like, this, this hurts. This hurts in here. I don't. What is this? Yeah. It's a very eye opening there.

Actually, that is a good. Well, first of all, I did want to ask when you were saying about how much, you know, creativity can an episode with, with stand or whatever. whatever. When you're making any television, are you, is there sort of a conscious like this is what people want or are you always going with what you personally like or enjoy or your sensibilities? Is there a balance there? Or do you kind of ignore the outside influence, as it were? It's trending. That's interesting, man. I feel like, I feel like the show dictates that to me, you know? Like, there are definitely shows where you know, you know,

you know there's something topical about this something timely um and with you know with that blueprint of the script and the DNA of the show i might lean toward what you're talking about a little bit more um i really do think though it's like i've been fortunate to you know do a good job on all the shows I get hired to do. And then over time, I'm getting hired. Because I'm very proactive. I go after the shows that I want to direct. So like, if you have a show that I like, I'm going to have my reps reach out and be like, Pete likes your show. You know what I mean? Like, Kenny, you have a meeting. And so over these last five, six years, now I've, it's like almost every year, it's almost becoming 75, 85% of like all shows that I went after.

So in this weird way, I'm now kind of getting shows that are in my sensibility pocket. So the the reality of like having to really reverse engineer or kind of govern myself is not as high because it's more things that like I would have loved to have been. involved with from the inception you know like flight attendant like i love that show and when i when that came through i was like oh this is like hey i'm happy as how to be here be i love this script and like c you want me to go crazy with the camera and the editing like okay you know i mean yeah yeah it works out yeah that show uh i remember my girlfriend was watching it she's she's definitely the uh the like background show person um so there's so there's always something on so i kind of

don't pay attention to it but then i like i walked out in my office and she's just like paying paying close attention closer than average and i was like huh right so i walked to there and it was the first season of flight attendant and i was like what what's this and then cut to like three hours later we're both like about halfway through the season yeah yeah it's like that's that's a fun one man yeah it's great it's great when you're uh working on a show that's not only in its second season, but you only, I think you did one episode of the show. I did one episode, right?

Yeah. What are those conversations like with, is it primarily the showrunners that you're talking to that keep everything sort of consistent and coherent? Are you talking with the other directors or like maybe even the actors to kind of guide you into not only adding your flair, but like make sure it doesn't look like a montage of music videos? Right, right, right.

So there's, you know, there's always a show, well, yeah, and there's always a show writer, or writer EP, and that person is kind of like your guiding light for what the show is doing, has done, and is trying to do, right? Because, like, if you hop into, you know, something that's not, you know, something that's not necessarily, episodic and maybe is more serialized and like you may not know for sure like that this one scene is like an alley-up for two episodes from now right so like they're like hey like that scene is actually super important like you know it's it's kind of inferred maybe there's subtext we're like hey here's what's going to happen um so they're really helpful in that a lot of these one-hour shows have um producing directors and so they're also an executive producer or a co-EP, but they are there to really help with the hiring of the directors,

so to kind of keep, maintain the integrity of that, and then also prep the directors. So I just did that on a show from like January to May. And so like it was for me, the most important part was like, all right, for your seven days of prep, I'm in every meeting with you, I'm answering every question with you or for you. I'm giving you a download of what the cast and crew is like, you know, what to look out for, maybe any kind of, you know, danger zones that might arise. Some friction in there. Some friction, you know what I mean?

And then when we get to set, I try and back away and then I prep with the next director, you know, because ideally I've set you up for success. So in the flight attendant's case, the showrunner was Steve Yaki. And Natalie Chides, they were a co-show running. And then the producing director was Silver Tree. And it's such a, it's such a, you know, people, once you find a people you like to collaborate with, you kind of keep going back to the well because you know that you can breathe easy. So like in that case, I had done two episodes of you where Silver was the producing director. So then that kind of led to this.

And then, you know, now it's going to lead to fatal attraction. action. They're doing a reboot of that. And so, you know, that's how you kind of have the, the, the guardrails, if I may. And from there, you know,

your department heads are really important because they know what the showrunner and the producing director are looking for. And so, you know, there are so many things that are kind of set up for you by the time you arrive, like locations have been scouted and maybe they've whittled,

10 down to three, you know, and they, they know which ones they want to use, but like, they're going to let you decide, or they're going to, like, kind of be like, hey, you know, that, that, what you think about that one? And so you're kind of reading all the, reading the room and gathering like, well, is it a budget thing for that location that, you know, makes it harder to achieve something else in the episode and you're making all these decisions, but they give you all of the, all of the room in the playground that you need to start making directorial decisions. that are in line with your vision.

Yeah. That kind of makes me think of a little bit of what we were talking about a minute ago about when you were saying earlier on in your career, you had less room to have input. And I was wondering if you had any sort of tips for anyone who is currently at that point in their career where they're showing up as a hired gun and aren't, you know, maybe those three locations, they're not choosing, you know, you're showing up to really just kind of guide the crew around, make sure someone hits the record button, et cetera. You know, how do you do that without feeling, you know, offended every time?

I think it's like embrace it. You know what I mean? Like whether you're a chef or an architect, like every time you do the job, like you're going to improve somewhere. And so like if I'm doing a show that's pretty locked in on what it is, then I might say, okay, I'm going to work on blocking this episode. I'm going to really challenge myself on blocking. You know what I mean?

Or I'm going to try and, you know, and I think this is a big part of the job. Like I try and come into the episode and say like, all right, it's different on like a first or second season show than like in season 10 show. But, you know, I'm like maybe folks are here. And they've kind of, I don't want to say falling into a rut, but they're like, they're not as excited as they were when they, when they, less novelty. Yeah, less not, you know, like can I come in and, and kind of be a, like, reinvigorate that excitement and all of those, you know, remind them of those reasons in a, in a kind of Jedi mind trick way of like why they loved being here. And, you know, can we get the best, like, can I make, and all of a lot of. can I make my episode better than the ones before and after? You know what I mean?

Because like we just lock in and find the vibe because the vibe is a huge part of it. You know, like if people are, are, you know, tired or angry or feeling unoverworked and unappreciated, you know, like they stop offering ideas, you know, you know what I mean? Like there's all these things that begin to make like the baseline of a good episode just go down on. a little bit, a little bit of, and over the course of, you know, 20 to 50 scenes, you know, it's a death by a thousand cuts. So I think, um, the long way, the short of it all is like, I think embrace whatever episodes you get because I've done shows where I kind of, like, maybe it was the first one. They're like, okay, well, we'll hire Pete. You know what I mean? And I get like, I get like, he's available. He's available. He's available. We need, you know,

like in the, in the world of like, to compare it to music. it's like okay this is like this is the song about the girl right and and so like it's a pretty standard beat but like you know maybe we'll release it to radio maybe not but I'm on the album but then they're like oh you did great with that we need a summer smash and now we want you to do that on the next album and they're only going to you're only going to graduate to that if they know that you understand what they're trying to do and they're not trying to impose your vision in a way that doesn't have a handshake with what they decided they were going to be doing years before you arrived. You know, that brings up an excellent, well, I don't know if what I'm

about to say is excellent, but it brings up something interesting, which is I was talking to a professor from college a few weeks ago, which for me was about 10 years ago I graduated. And, and And when we were in school, you know, the 5D came out my sophomore year. So we were still aiming to film, you know. And we were all, there was no other option today, you know, if you, if this is your thing, you can make a ton of money on YouTube, doing whatever you want, you know, or you can just create for yourself. But for us, it was like, that's the industry we want to go.

It was an industry. And so this idea of getting out of school and just be. being a D.P. I've graduated and now I'm a D.P. Did not exist. Right. We were like, well, we got to find it in. You know, where are we going to pee? And my professor was saying that all these kids are getting out of school. And that element seems to be, um, that element of starting somewhere and proving yourself and working your way. They're like, that's, you know, this is bullshit. I put in my time. Right. These gatekeepers are, are, are 20. Yeah. I'm 20 and hot. Yeah, the idea that there are gatekeepers is like offensive. But I've noted that that's the only, that will never change. You do need to go through and prove that you know what you're doing. No one's going to spend a million dollars on you just because you, you know, had a great interview. Right.

Right. And you know, and you need, you also need that attitude, right? Because like, I feel like, I mean, I had that same attitude, you know, for years. I did too. Yep. And I still have it when I do stuff now. Like, you know, I've got, I've been trying, I've been interviewing for different, like, kind of high action shows and they're like, oh, you haven't done that before.

And I'm like, you're going to see one day, I'm going to kill that shit. And you're going to be like, oh, you're the action guy. You know what I mean? Like, because every year I try and get into a new genre just to, because I know there's always going to be the thing that they think you can't do. But like, I need to have that attitude, that 20-year-old needs to have that attitude. But the reality of it is the folks on the other side of the table have zero connection to your self-belief.

You know what I mean? Like they need to see something and you need to find some way through your own means to create the thing for them to see. And that's like, you know, over long enough. timeline, you know, you get to that point and then, you know, either those people seek you out or the people that you've been toiling with, you know, trying to get there, you know, like you're out here trying to be a DP and then that other person becomes a producer, you know, and then they're like, hey, Kenny, come shoot this thing. And, you know, I saw it a lot like,

you know, one of the folks that I went to NYU with and graduated with was Reed Morano. And she was shooting everybody's stuff. You know, like had a 24P, you know, Canon camera or Panasonic or whatever, and, you know, shooting docs and whatever she could. And then it became indie films. And then it was directing films as well. And it's like, but that's like a, you know,

that's a 20 year, 15, 20 year grind, you know. Right. That we all want to think we can, you know, speed through. But the reality of it is, it's probably it's very likely you're going to need at least a few at least a year before it possible i've noticed uh at least for me it seems to be my whole life has been on four-year intervals and when i was about 28 i was just like all right i can chill the fuck out like because i because i'd get anxious you know oh it's not happening and and i'm worried about something that i did

that I started trying to do like six months prior. Right. I'm failing, you know. Right. But I think what you're talking about is like kind of a humble confidence, you know, because if you don't believe in yourself, no one's going to believe in you.

But you also have to understand that like you don't, you know, I know that I'm talented enough to shoot a nice commercial or whatever, you know, maybe probably a narrative as well. But also if someone was like, hey, Kenny, you're going to shoot the next, a flight attendant episode, I would fucking die. Like, no, because I don't have, I don't have that experience. Like, I don't know. I haven't hit that level yet.

You know, there's stepping stones that now later in life, I'm like, I would rather hit the stepping stones before just getting handed a feature. And I would say the, the stones are not as far apart as we think. Because what I've, because I shadowed on a bunch of shows and, you know, the takeaway that I always say to people, what is, I didn't. didn't see any geniuses. You know what I mean? Like I was just watching, I was just watching people who had different, who had a precise method, you know, had a great temperament. Some were, could have probably been psychologists. You know what I mean? Because they, how they were managing all the personalities. And then I'm like, okay, so that's the job. You know, like, obviously the shots and the blocking and all that is the job too. But like, the best blocking. in the world won't happen if you can't deal with people, you know? So, yeah, I always marvel at, like, you know, as with anything, it's really, it's really

once you know the mechanics of it, and that's probably the biggest gap, because when you graduate from school, you think it's just the process, you know what I mean? But, like, when you peep the mechanics, you're like, oh, I can do that, or, you know, I was like, oh, I should, it's just, drew between my legs and jab and then step back. And then I shoot, okay, I could practice that and do that. And now, you know, I'm Steph Curry. Yeah. Yep, that's the, that's how it works.

That's how goes. Yeah, yeah, four rings, whatever. Yeah, that actually kind of brings up another question I was going to ask, which was talk to me about the importance of the crew that you hire. And what not. each individual person does, but sort of managing that team and what do you look for in a great crew member? And what are you, what are you avoiding? So I'll answer that on two levels, you know, like if I'm doing a film or doing a commercial,

then I've got a hand in the selection of that crew more likely than not. If it's a TV show, I'm working with the crew that works on the show. So it's almost like, you know, being elected president and keeping the cabinet of the prior. So you really have to know how to like be a good guest while also being a good leader. Now, when you get into, you know, what do you look for? I mean, first I want to know that we're on the same page with the story and that you have some connection to it and just on an emotional level. And then that would be like A and then B, like you have a, you have a sensibility and taste that understands how this should be attempted to be communicated.

And I say attempted because we prep and we plan and then we shoot and it's different. You know, so and then and then. Lastly, like, do you have the skill set to do what you're talking about, right? Because, you know, a lot of times in my early times, man, I remember I did a short film and these folks told me they could edit the behind the scenes and then they gave me a cut. And I was like, did you just buy this fucking final cut pro? You know, and they were like, yeah, it's our first. I was like, oh, shit.

You know, so now I'm like in the editing room like, yeah, cut that, do that. So those would be the three things. And I think, you know, I've learned to also look at how certain department heads engage because the dynamic between, let's say, a UPM line producer and a DP just fundamentally is contentious because I want more equipment and you want less money spent. And so just every time we see each other, it's going to be, I want. want what you don't want me to have. And so I watch for those kind of dynamics too because I don't, if it's contentious from the beginning, it's only going to get worse with long hours,

difficult days, and challenging, you know, schedules. Right. I actually, something that's brought to mind is I was on a shoot a couple weeks ago and the director would constantly throw in, we were shooting a commercial and there was a lot of it was like legally we needed to shoot a lot of alts for the lawyers to look at and go okay this one that one you know whatever for verbiage and uh he kept throwing in these random alts that were like putting the timeline back and the ad was getting pissed off and then at one point he throws in like a stunt

like his buddy was on the shoot and he goes I'm going to throw the stunt in and then so all of us were like hold out wait wait wait and so we're all like why are we doing that why is he doing this and he turns around The director turns around to the AD and looks at him and goes, I don't need any questions from you guys. And then turns right and gets back to it. And we're like, okay, got it. The AD leans over to me. He goes, I don't think he knows what my job is.

Right. I would like to ask him if he knows what I'm supposed to be doing here. Right. And then I guess that, you know, the petty reply is why I guess we won't be supplying any answers to you. You know, because there's going to be a time when you're going to turn around and say, Hey, how do we get out of this? Or I need that. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not collaborative. No. And that was the other thing, too, is like, it was supposed to be like a funny spot. You know, it wasn't like the set wasn't, the set was pretty light. And he was taking it very seriously. But I think, I get the feeling it was just like first larger gig. Yeah. It was a little stressed out.

Yeah. But that, that ain't going to help. No. Are there any resources that, were you always kind of naturally charismatic in team playing? Or did you have to find some resources to help, you know, teach you how to, how to deal with people in that way? You know, well, I hope I'm charismatic, you know. You know, I think one of the, when I first picked up the camera, you know, I, it was not only shooting all the time. I was stealing the books, you know, from my high school teacher.

Some of them I actually still have, which is crazy, like, I guess. And I think he knew and I think he appreciated that I was so, like, enamored. But, you know, I read Sidney Lumet's making movies, like, you know what I mean? That was me in high school, buddy. Exactly. Like, once I was like, you know, okay, I like this. I want to do this. I want to go to NYU.

Like, I was like, well, what are the things, you know? well, I can watch, I can read, what can I read, you know? So I read that book, you know, quick tangent. I remember, I remember Entertainment Weekly did the 50 greatest directors and their 100 best films, right? And so for each director, it had like, per director, I was like, that's a big day. The weird list, yeah. But it was like, it had like the, so you know what, it was kind of like they had the, they had the movie. And they had the film, right?

So, like, you could see the one that everybody's going to know. And then here's the one that, like, you know, that was the cult favorite or, like, the, the, the real film enthusiast is going to know about it. And I bought, I got a credit card at Macy's first credit card so I could get a VCR so I could go to Blockbuster in Kim's video, underground video, and rent all these fucking VHS tapes. And so the short of it is that once I was like, I want to do this, I wanted to understand like the craft, the psychology, the technique, and over and over again, reading resources like that are like right here. I have a do the right thing book that Spike signed right here, you know. Oh, nice. You know, it was just I wanted to understand what the demands of the job were. And all, all, another great book I read was, um, 50, 50 directors talk about the first, like,

films that they made or whatever. And, you know, it was just cathartic for me, but it was also kind of giving me a little bit of a, like, ingredient list of like, okay, it's going to be crazy. You got to, you got to be kind of physically in shape to get through production, you know, like, You have to be mentally in shape. You have to collaborate with people. You know what I mean? Like it's just not an art of one. And if you and you are also working with people who are much better at their job than you are.

But you want them to do with their talent what you do if you had it. You know what I mean? So it's like this weird. It's this weird thing of like, you know, you almost as you get older and even as you have kids, like you kind of learn like I have to create an environment for people to be their most creative and their most collaborative. And whatever it takes to get that little cocktail is directing. And that shit changes day to day. It changes. is show to show, you know, but like you kind of have to always have your finger on the pulse and figure out what what you might need to add to make sure you're staying on track. And so even kind of going back to your earlier question, like, oh, if you get a show or an episode that's kind of straightforward, like what I just said is the job, though, right? So like an opportunity to hone that craft, you know, is only going to prepare you for the big blockbuster finale episode or, you know, when somebody comes and says, we want you to do a Marvel movie. It'll be

because you can do that. Not because you can impose like, you know, movie moves or tracking shots or fucking, you know, uh, montage editing. You know what I mean? Like, because you shot an 8K. Oh, you saw it on Monster. You. shoot Eternals. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, you're talking about watching all these movies, and we touched on it with the movie versus film thing. But I kind of wanted to get your angle on.

I had this thought recently that I was kind of wishing selfishly and stupidly that we could make films only for people who understood film. because I'm I'm kind of sick of like it's always online I don't think I ever have these conversations with actual people but like it's people who don't get filmmaking or don't get like storytelling like media literacy is at an all time low so you just get these bonehead takes about great films you sometimes are bad films but whatever and they're like I hated it this are that's actually a key one they don't say they didn't like it they say it was bad right and then you have to sit there and go no it's not the thing you dislike is fine but it's not bad because of that it's you just don't like it because you don't understand storytelling right like every care the way it was described that i thought was kind of on point was like for some reason now people will only accept the optimum like a character doing the optimum thing and not the human thing as far as like by optimum being like this is like if everyone we're looking this is the best choice to make kind of thing yeah and and also uh

what, I guess if every character, every character has 20, you know, not hindsight, but current site. Right. You know, why would you do that? That's stupid. That doesn't make any sense. And it's like, well, because they're human. A lot of times if you look at these older films, a lot of people are making bad choices.

That's kind of the point. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, such an interesting thing, right? You know, without answering the question, I think it's why. TV has become, you know, the go-to for interesting storytelling, right? Because I think Obama said this.

He was like, these shows are like the new novel, right? Right. Because people don't read anymore like they or read like they used to. And so, I mean, even if like half these shows are like, it's not an episode, it's chapter two, chapter three, right? So like this idea of like the best way to get into someone else. shoes is through an episode of television and because films are doing exactly what you're saying more often than not that kind of with that optimum character choice you know people who want to deal with flawed characters creatives have kind of left and flocked to the places

where they could do that which has been streaming or premium cable or whatever um so yeah you're right? But, you know, the funny thing about it is that I just, I wonder, I wonder, who was, what was I watching? I thought this was, I saw a clip of James Gray. Um, Jim, no, yeah, who directed the yards, right? That I wouldn't know. I couldn't do. Um, I think it's James Gray. I might be messing that up, but he was talking about, you know, the big, mistake of getting rid of James Gray, yeah, getting rid of all these different

kind of mini-majors that were like the art house wings of like of major studios and really deciding not to make as much kind of, you know, Oscar fair and they're like, it's, you know, it's systematically dumbing down the audience, you know, because there's, this is a,

you get into a real conversation of like, puppetry and elitism perhaps, but like I do, I wonder, you know, there's an, there's an argument that, let's say that, that, you know, people don't know what they want, right? Right. Right. Because what, what they're, what people are watching, someone decided they would watch. So if you were to decide that, you know, this is the way that we want, these are the things we want to promote and sell or promote, I mean, promote or sell or create, then, you know,

people would shift just like you know prior to social media people weren't saying I'm clamoring for fake news you know what what I'm looking for is an infinite scroll of bullshit like yeah I want to be angry 24 seven nobody was saying that like people say okay so if so if if that exists and people know and maybe that's just lower hanging fruit you know what gray was saying like well there is a higher hanging fruit. You know what I mean? And it deserves exercise as well. You know, it needs to be, it needs to be fed as well. Yeah. Well, and I think too, like not only, so I completely agree that I think if you put good stuff in front of people and take away the option to watch bad stuff, they'll still watch it. And then they will slowly become educated on like what's good and they'll

have better opinions and because that's what I was saying earlier like it was selfish and dumb thought like why can't we make movies for people who like movies and it's like I that that's short cutting the hard part which is actually changing an industry to to value maybe not making a billion dollars this month right you know like the criterion channel is very available on streaming you know you don't even got to buy the blu-rays but um no one's going to go on there and choose double double indemnity because they don't know what it is. You know, they know, they know, uh, uh, Jurassic world. I love how I just saw Jurassic World too. And I'm talking about this. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's it, I've been thinking

it. The only reason I ask is because I have been thinking about it a lot recently, like, how do we build in that media literacy or that, that love of cinema? You know, everyone like jumping on, um, um, um, Scorsese's throat for him, like, like trying to champion original, like, let's say, OG cinema or whatever. I'm like, get off his back. Like the man is trying to save an art form. Like there's a difference between the art and the entertainment. Just because they're both visual mediums doesn't mean they're the same thing.

You know. Right. I mean, the other argument, though, and you know, I'm somewhat devil's advocating here. But like, you know, all things evolve. All things change. All things. you know, there's a cycle to everything, you know, like, I look at my niece wearing the things that I was dying to get rid of my closet in the, in the 90s, you know? And it's like, wow,

the 90s are back, right? Like, you guys are making a bad choice. But, you know, like, what's the, what happens over time, you know, like I was watching or listening to this podcast called the the fall of civilizations and very light fare. And one thing they talked about, though, was like the evolution of food. And so if you go back to, you know, early, like Mesopotamia, you know, or anywhere like at the dawn of civilization,

like, you know, bananas were not bananas. They were this different thing that were hardly edible. and people would get the two edible ones out of a thousand. And then over thousands of years, they became edible bananas. And same with grains and rice and all these things. And like, you know, is there or not is there? What will be the positive evolution of like this time that's happening now? I don't know.

I can't predict it. but maybe there'll be a, a new genre that emerges or there's, maybe there's more fluency in, in, because that's a new thing, right? Like, the genre mixing is, is really the thing because there's nothing new left to do, right? I like a good, A, I love a genre film. And so I love, you know, everything everywhere is a great example of just everything in the kitchen sink getting thrown at a film. Right.

And, uh, and that's because those filmmakers have seen so much. and are like, fuck it, I can do whatever I want. So like maybe at the end of the day, like we're just getting where we are overexposed or or hyper aware of all the noise. But then there are these other things that are kind of carving and cutting through here and there that, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'm just being trying to be hopeful. No, I agree. Because like they made that joint for 15 million. Like, I think, I think that was maybe the giant bell that got rung that maybe hopefully is telling, well, there's only three companies that own all media now, but that's a different story.

But maybe it's telling one of those three that we don't need to tent pole everything. You know, we can give 15, 25 mil to someone and maybe give us something interesting that's a little closer to the ground, although that film is insane. But the heart of that story is pretty close to the ground. You know, just mother, her daughter and her father. But that, so that's my hopefulness is like films like that are going to start to be a lot more prevalent and in people's. Because everyone loved that film. Yeah. I haven't heard one person say, yeah, it wasn't for me, you know.

So I think that that kind of stuff's helping. I did want to ask because you brought it up twice. Like, what was do the right thing for you? Was that kind of a seminal film or did it just come up twice? in this conversation or like was it the new york connection that that drew you to that or yeah it was i mean it was uh first it was the like the first time i had watched something and really saw elements of my life and my psyche reflecting back to me so that was kind of like you know what i mean and like uh i say this all the time and i wrote about it in my book i'm like

Like, you know, when I, when Giancarlo Esposito's bugging out character got his Jordan scuffed and like that was like a scene and a moment and a like plot point, I was like, yo, I know that. And it does this little thing where you're like, well, okay, well, maybe I can like tell stories too. Like a little tiny thing like that. So that was it. That was it. That was like the main thing. And then just, you know, as I dissected the film.

and kind of looked at all of the crafty storytelling, in my opinion, where it felt like you're meandering through a day, but nothing was frivolous. You know what I mean? Like everything at a point, like, you know, the introductions of every character told you something about the end of the film. The economy of it, you know, was very, was very,

very, you know, that spoke to me as well because I knew that I'd be stepping into this career without needs, you know? So it's like, oh, you can do something about a single block in your town. Okay, okay, let me, you know, and I think that was, I think that spoke to a lot of folks. I mean, if you look at, you know, Kevin Smith, you know, and then putting Red Bank, New Jersey on the map in a particular way. Like, it was just, it was a, it was a, a, a north star. in many regards. Yeah, no, Clerks for me was, well, I didn't get to Clerks first. I hit, I guess it was Dogma first and then worked my way back.

But, yeah, that was definitely for, I think anyone who was in film school in the 90s and early 2000s got like a big shot of Kevin Smith, Spike Lee, Spike Jones, you know, Michelle. Soderberg. Soderberg, yeah. Yeah. do you uh do you see anyone these days that kind of reminds you of that or has echoes of that of those filmmakers um wow yeah like like new new directors yeah or even people who are kind of hitting right now because because all those folks are like established but you know maybe you've uh uh started to enjoy light retirement you know retirement light um you know it's funny man like i will

tell you I don't really watch a lot of movies anymore I don't like I've I've gone to the Apple TV and gone to like the like I've tried to watch things I'm like nah you know and it's this weird thing right where like it's either you know

I think the last movie that I saw it out was probably Bond because I love the James Bond movies and I was like I'm watching that you know but then it's like either that or it's something that's a little like that's kind of super small and specific in a way that for some reason I guess has been decided well this will be the kind of film we make so it'll be some small period piece or I don't know something

that I found us up going going immediately to Netflix, Hulu and you know HBO Max Amazon Prime and seeing what are the new shows? yeah well and the shows are like like we were saying like shows are the new the new hotness you know like there are that is interesting though because like because we're kind of dancing around the same issue which is like we either go see your james bond you're drastic park you're at or it's a show but but i but i but i think it kind of that almost speaks to what we were saying which is like everything in the middle doesn't exist anyway so we don't have an option i mean last night i went on a tear just watching random stuff like when my girlfriend's gone for the week so I always like

I'm like this is my time so I end up watching just so I watched like the day of the earth stood still thinking on a reuse version I watched um oh shit what was it it was um that it was this is the problem I don't even remember what I saw but I watched like four movies in a row that were all just like that uh war of the worlds you know I was just like seeking out weird side oh Ender's Game, just stuff like that, because I was, I don't know why, but I was like, that was, that was my candy for the evening or whatever. And I wouldn't say a lot of those, Enders game's pretty good, but like I wouldn't say that Day of Erstead still is like high cinema or whatever, but you just sit there and you're like, yeah, but I don't even see that film really getting

made today. So that, that, that had no end to that thought. That was just, that was just what was happening. Once a thought. Yeah, no. It's an interesting time. I mean, hopefully there'll be some, you know, you know what I'll say. And this is really my hope. And it's really a specific hope for myself.

But I feel like, you know, I talk often about genre blending is the new thing. Because audiences can finally see something that challenges their idea of story and narrative. while giving them, you know, you have to be very artful in how you construct a hybrid genre piece, right? But like you're giving them something that they're familiar enough with to go on the journey and then you are now making the decisions about which, you know, kind of archetypal,

structural points are, am I going to lean into or remove? And when I think about the things that I want to do, you know, with black characters and putting them into films like that and and read and going directly at a lot of these topics that are often, you know, addressed either tangentially or addressed in an anthropological way. Like I think that's a real, that's an exciting new place for me that I think that audiences are kind of perhaps they don't know it, but are, are we waiting for something of that nature. You know, I was watching the last season of Atlanta with my wife.

And I was like, man, this is just like... One of the best shows ever. It's just, I'm like, man, they're really doing whatever they want, you know. And not just to be doing whatever, but to be making a statement and it's super creative and it's critically, you know, awarded. I don't know, man. I'm kind of rambling myself, but I think, you know, a lot of times, whenever you're, when things are in flux, things are also kind of hardening at the same time and you don't know it, right? So like when, like, when all those mini majors were shutting down in the late aughts, you know, we were pivoting to a whole new style of like indie filmmaking, we just didn't know that that was.

happening because the thing that we saw was like icebergs, you know, melting. Right. But like underneath, it was like, you know, a new species of fish was about to emerge. And so I kind of hope that that's what's going on. And I think being, um, being nimble as a, as a creative is going to be is, is just a requirement. You know, like, like before it was like, I saw so many people who couldn't make, you know, you know, teachers really, like that I knew as teachers who couldn't go from like the film to video, it was just like, it was like anathema to them, you know? And, and I think that like, well, now it's like, you know, hey, all right, I'll do a quibby

project, okay, quibby's gone, cool, I learned something, you know, like, you have to be ready for whatever it may be, because storytelling is never going to change the delivery system you know may change but the but being a good storyteller and knowing how to like you know turn those knobs on something that's 30 seconds three minutes 30 minutes three hours 10 episodes eight seasons like if you can hone that craft I think you'll be good yeah I mean that's something I actually have to remind myself a lot of is like a storytelling doesn't change go back to the classics and like see what's up one one film that I try to get people to watch to like convince them that old movies aren't dumb is the conformist because it

Bartolucci yeah yeah because that film is shot like it was made yesterday like big sweeping camera moves it's in color thank God you know this it's like 73 or like seven I think it was like 68 okay it might be 73 you could be right let's let's do another research this is the first this maybe the second podcast ever just actively done research while we talk about it um but it's it's surprisingly uh 1970 so right in the middle um but uh it feels much more modern than i actually watched that and then i went and saw the godfather in theaters for that uh re-release back to back and i was like so these films came out what when was the godfather 78 the godfather i think was 70 that was also 70 maybe that was also 70 and that was my 72

72 so they came out right next to each other and the godfather feels old unquote and the conformist doesn't interesting um and i just found that very fascinating because everyone's everyone's willing to say oh godfather best movie all time like okay cool go watch the conformacy what's up see what the italians are doing you know right um but also so tangent uh have to remind myself that storytelling doesn't change and all stories are good but also um that uh i need to not go on tangent so i remember what I was going to say. That's the other thing I need to remember. God damn it. Oh, oh, the Gordon Willis thing, speaking of the Godfather, where he said, you should keep things simple, but not simplistic. Don't overcomplicate what you're trying to tell. What's the, you know, what's the

main point of what you're doing and keep it simple. Don't dumb it down, but just hone it into the, like, the easiest way. I mean, not the easiest, but the, the, the most simple way for this to be delivered. Don't we don't need, as you were saying, those Ronan moves and, you know, 30 different characters. That was the Jurassic Park problem. 70 characters, no through line. Right.

You know, just a lot of dinosaurs and a lot of, remember the dinosaurs? Hey, do you want a John Williams drop? Here you go. You know, that kind of thing. It's just too much, too much. Just narrow it down. And I'm starting to see.

But again, to your point about being hopeful, I do feel like things are starting to move back into that direction. I think there's been enough complaining from both the audience and creatives that that, that, that, that's kind of starting to pivot out. Right. I hope. I hope. Talk to me about your podcast because I saw it right before we got on that you had one.

So I can't say I've listened to it. But that'll go on the old list. But what do you do on there? So it's called Let's Shoot with Pete Chapman. And I basically, you know, I wrap with, you know, folks in front of. and behind the camera, the tagline is, you know, we kind of talk about why we'll always need stories, you know what I mean? And we also, for my immediate audience, I try and also get folks to chat about what from their position makes a good director. And so, you know, I like to,

I like to consider it, you know, two people chatting over coffee or a drink or whatever it is that they like about the business and their journey and trying to make sure listeners have some kind of understanding of how they could apply the principles learned from someone else's journey to their own. So I've had folks that I've worked with, like Issa Ray and Rob McElheny and Dorian and Simone Missick and Kelly Cuoco.

And then folks that I've met along the way that are, you know, executives and all that good stuff, writers. So it's, I enjoy it. It's kind of cathartic for me. I started it back during the, in June of 2020, like when we were locked down and wiping off packages and whatnot. But, you know, I keep it going because I learned something from everybody and I and I feel like remaining curious is another um important thing for somebody in this industry because you the minute you think you've got to figure it out is the minute you'll become obsolete you know um so I try and better myself while sharing something for other people to to hear as well that that is almost identical to how this podcast started was

it was I think it was like January 2020 uh and uh you Yeah, nearly same exact. So basically you have the more polished higher brow version of this thing. I don't know. I mean, it's very casual, man. I try and keep it from, you know, over that time as well, one of my favorite podcasts became Mark Marins, you know, what the fuck. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I just love how you just don't know where those conversations are going to go. I don't know if I have two to three hours, you know, when I get folks. So it's a little, I do have to kind of keep it on. Well, they're at his house, too. They can't get away. He just got them. But I love it, man. It's very refreshing and rewarding to do it.

Totally. I'll actually steal kind of that question from you then is what makes a good DP in your head? What makes a good DP? I think a good, and I won't put this in any order. I'm just going to kind of throw things out of. out at you. I think a good DP is, has a great connection to emotion. I think a good DP is a great collaborator and communicator because I think that, you know,

and I'm thinking whether film or TV, I think the good DP is going to have so many different types of directors that they work with, and I would argue that collaboration kind of works best when everyone is reimagining themselves to a degree to work with the people that they work with, right? I think that good DP's got to be a technical wizard, you know, like I'm looking to Like, there'll, there's always something around like, yo, how are we going to do that shit? You know, and I need that person to be like, here's how, or I'm going to do a test and figure it out. But, like, you know, they've got to be that technical wizard.

And I think they've got to go with the flow. You know, I'm not a fan of anyone, even ADs who are bark, bark, bark. I think, obviously, like, we've got to keep things moving and be firm. You know, at the end of the day, there's always going to be some problem. So when they arise, you know, how do you, how do you present? And I like to work with folks who keep the vibe the same, no matter what's going on. No one should arrive on set and be like, oh, shit's fucked up today, isn't it? Like, you know, they should arrive.

And then somebody be like, oh, yeah, like, we're in a little bit of a jam right now. You know what I mean? It should just be even keel. I'm sure I'm leaving, I'm leaving something out. You know, I think they should also find themselves. I think every creative person, particularly department heads, should find themselves in the stories they're telling as well because somehow like that collaborative, you know,

jumbo of all these people having a point of view is how you have a better shot at avoiding blind spots. You know what I mean? So yeah, that's what I would say. Yeah. The one thing that we've said a lot on this podcast is like it's important to there's technically correct and that's fine, but then there's like emotionally correct. Something that that feels correct. And it's not always something you can articulate. And I think that kind of goes to what you're saying about seeing yourself in the character and the story or something like that, being able to identify what you would do or something that speaks to you because then that allows you to feel what is correct. That's a really great point. Yeah, there's a there's a

thing that I remember Paul Newman said there's there's a difference that he had to learn where there's good for me bad for camera and bad for me good for camera and he had to he was making a point of like I had to I had to recognize that bad for me good for camera is an okay thing you know and I think that because I've come across DPs who are like oh well that won't be perfect if we do it like that and you will lose if you go for perfect you will lose many great moments many you know honest moments you know the humanity of the humanity of the thing yeah yeah that's a that's a great that's a great place to to end on um thank you so much for spending that hour and some change with me man that was a lot of fun hey Kenny my pleasure

man this is great this is great and And I hope everybody listens often and appreciates what you're doing because it's just great to kind of talk honestly and openly about the industry and creative goals and all that good stuff. I hope so, too. Yeah. Cool, man. Well, definitely we'll have to have you back on next time you got something you

want to talk about or just if you want to keep talking. That'd be great. Yeah. Frame and Reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidio Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.