Frame & Reference Podcast - 63: "Ozark" DP Eric Koretz

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Welcome back to the Frame & Reference podcast, this week Kenny talks with cinematographer Eric Koretz about shooting 4 episodes of the last season of "Ozark." Eric is a graduate of AFI and in this episode goes into some of the nitty gritty of lighting on "Ozark" and much more! Enjoy the episode. Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome back to frame and reference. I'm your host, Ken McMillan, and if you're a fan of this show, you'll know we were gone for the past two weeks, and that is because I kind of comboed my birthday slash 4th of July slash going to a wedding. as a vacation. So I took a two-week vacation, but now we're back. And we are talking this week with Eric Corretz, the DP of a couple episodes of the final season of Ozark, which I know a lot of people are interested in how that show is shot.

A very unique visual language there. Eric is another graduate of AFI. We've had a lot of AFI members overall, but definitely recently. So we talk a little bit about that. He's actually teaching there again. get into that. Obviously talk about how they shoot Ozark. You know, I was talking about having to shoot a night scene and I had a 1200d and he was like, oh yeah, with the 360, the R360, we'd have that thing at like 0.25% because it was too bright at night. Lighting's crazy nowadays. Anyway,

it's a great episode. You're going to love this one. Eric's rad. And you guys are rad too. So I will let you get to listening. So here, go ahead and enjoy my conversation with Eric Corretz. The way that we start every podcast is by asking how you got your creative juices flowing. Like were you always a visual person growing up? Did you go to film school? Were you a woodworker first and then became a filmmaker? That seems to be pretty common.

I was born in the woods. No. creative juices well i mean i always did art growing up um i was always the kid that instead of doing uh you know the writing assignment i would be the artist of the group and draw a picture or do some sort of artistic endeavor mostly to get the fuck out of uh doing anything academic in any way um and so i always did photography and then uh i went to college undergrad for graphic design And sort of, it was the first time I went in and realized there was other people like me around. Like there was, you know, I went to art school.

I went to the art school at Syracuse University. And that sort of opened my eyes to be like, oh, you know, I actually, I can do this just for a career and for life. And I don't have to worry about the academic parts that I don't give a shit about. Right. So I went for graphic design, but I always did sort of hybrid projects. So I would do, I would do, I would do. graphic design and then I would do how do you shoot some things and animate over it and how I would do photography but I and I always love movies and I knew that I was eventually I wanted to do something in film at first it was actually title design

I had seen seven and I saw how God his name escapes you right now I and it shouldn't sure conji no no the title the actual the title designer oh oh um And I loved the mixture of graphic, you know, video, film, video, and in the graphic, motion graphics. And so I wanted to do that. Great song behind it, too. Yeah. Oh, amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. So I knew I wanted to do work in film somehow. And then I started doing sort of EPKs and music videos. And I moved to Los Angeles. And I had a graphic design company. I actually had one in college where I was doing global websites while I was in school. And then had moved to Los Angeles because I knew we wanted to be there and started doing like EPKs and music videos and animation and all this sort of things. And then ultimately I realized I hated graphic design and as a living anyway.

And then so I just started working on film sets, making my own movies, started PAing a lot and just learning. And eventually I built a weird portfolio. and applied to AFI for cinematography. Oh, cool. Yeah, and not really knowing that everyone else there had years of cinematography experience, I was just like, yeah, fuck it, I want to learn the camera. And just gave them a portfolio of photos

and weird shit that I had animated over and shot and somehow got in. Stephen Lighthill was kind enough to put me in the class and saw something in some of my work somehow. And fell in love of cinematography once I was in school and then that was it for me. I just became a cinematographer. That's right.

We've had a handful of AFI students on this, or AFI graduates, I should say. Yeah. And that school does seem to, A, all y'all are good at your job, but B, I'm kind of interested in how they structure their classrooms. Yeah. As opposed to the way that traditional. colleges do because in for film school for me it was very much here's your

assignment you figure it out right you know we we weren't we weren't given very much structure to like here's your group you're gonna work with them for the rest of your life right yeah I mean I can't speak for other schools but AFI is very immersive your first year you do not have a life outside of a if I you're seven days a week you're the crew on other people's projects, you're going to class or you're working on your own. And so I think the best thing about AFI was, well, one, the other students that you're working with, which I'm still friends with most of them today, and you learn from them as you're

working on set. But, you know, weekly there's a class where someone from the field comes in and teaches you about lighting some aspect. And I actually just recently, the last few years, have been teaching that class myself. Like, I'll come in for, you know, once a year and just do a guest lighting seminar. And the theme of that is usually what not to do. But so, and then they really, you really just get a chance to hone your craft and try things. And there's always technical knowledge there with the professors,

but you also get a chance to fuck up and try things on your own and see what works. And it's very intense. And I think the intensity of, of, and the pressure and sort of, um, that learning environment really molds you. Um, it's not for everyone because it's, you know, it's everyone, you know, there's, there's a peer review group where they tell you your work sucks more, more often than not. And then you learn from that. And I, for me, that's the best, that's how I've always learned the best, but, um, it's not for all, all people. No, you know, uh, I, I, I definitely learned that way now.

I think about it going back, I'm like, I would have, I would have loved doing that. But I think at that age, you know, 18 to 21, I don't think I would have taken. I think it would probably would have burned me out because I loved doing stuff. Like, I ran the snowboard club, you know, I would, I didn't have, well, I did have time, I should say. I think the difference is after, it's usually, there was no one that was in undergrad there. so it was all it was it was a grad school so oh okay okay people i mean think there's one student who is uh of the undergrad age but like you go you come there after working a few years in the fields um at the very least um so people are ready to kind of settle down and just focus on

cinematography um so that that's the main difference gotcha yeah because now i probably would have taken to it more i did i'm so glad you said that you're going back and teaching what not to do in lighting because I try to make this podcast at least half educational besides just being informed or entertaining. So if you wouldn't mind, what are some of the things that you should not do when lighting that you've been sort of talking about recently? Honestly, what I talk about isn't really what not to do in lighting. It's what not to do in life. Oh, okay, perfect. And more about the the negative experiences or not necessarily the negative experiences, but the experiences that I've

had that I felt I've fucked up on or could have changed or done differently or has sculpted me in my career and just talk about that and have an open dialogue because when you, you know, when I was in class, there's a lot of DPs that are coming in that are, which is great, telling awesome stories about how great they are and what they do. But I think, To me, I'm more beneficial when someone's open and honest about the mistakes that they made and how you can learn from them. And that opens up a bigger dialogue because you can be honest about your experiences that way as opposed to just pumping yourself up. You know, we've all done dumb things or necessarily things that didn't work out. And the more you talk about them, other people can learn from them.

So, yeah, yeah. the trust me the the I've I've shouted from the rooftops that failure is far more informative than doing a great job and yeah yeah you know and even mistakes in life will inform you know and everything hones you yeah you know even the non artistic failures whatever they may be definitely make you more rigid when getting into let's say a film set and people are acting annoying or whatever you know people are sure let's say green to green maybe and you can just take that and go all right all right it's fine it helps to find your zen yeah yeah yeah are there any what what do you find that because because I don't really know what the audience of this podcast is yet like demographically um so I'll just as a sort of question for the younger people the people who might be in college or grad school like what are you finding our today's um problems like what what are because when i was in film school

we were trying to solve for the mini dd camera right all the rest of that we were getting taught but it was just like we don't have 24 p like it was much more mechanical um is that is it still i wouldn't say we were gear focused at all right because there just wasn't but uh we were always trying to add production value with like crane moves i remember remember someone had a jib arm in our class and oh my god that thing got used every that thing got so much used every shot was on the jib arm um but yeah what's what's the current uh sort of generation up to do you think what are you finding interesting about them well i think there's there's the instagram problem really where you everyone seems to be doing incredible things all the time

non-stop um and i think a lot of that is is realizing just to work at your own pace and you know figure things out and you don't don't get sucked into that wormhole of uh of like you know have to be on all the time and doing incredible shit is it's all it's always a learning experience um i think right now equipment is incredible right now the the pace that it's evolving and what's out there i mean you could you know you can shoot some incredible shit with a you know a sony fx3 or you know and these small ds lrs that really get you beautiful production values. So I think in the lights are less expensive now too like the all the prosumer and which have basically become pro lights I use a lot of

you know aperture lighting rotolite the stuff that had previously have been prosumer stuff and is now you know pro grade ready and great CRI so what that allows people to do is really just focus on learning lighting and what works and you don't need the big tools to really make something beautiful. And everything's, you know, you see a lot of gear-focused. A lot of people are very gear-focused, but you don't really need much. Like, it's just about your skill and how, what you're studying, like some of the beautiful work that influences you and trying to emulate that at first and then making it your own.

So, you know, for example, when I'm at class, I was showing how. how we light things in Ozark way, which admittedly is, you know, sometimes we use a lot of big gear for that negatives, but showing to do that on a smaller scale, like instead of a 20-by overhead, you know, just getting a 12-by and blocking out the sun and then bringing in your light underneath that, like it's, you don't have to do it on a large scale if you can adapt your shots to work that way, you know? And then I'd show them an example of how other, other shows. shows my light, which is just a big bright light and lighting too much.

So a lot of, you know, if you look at Gordon Willis, it's like hiding what the character is doing is a lot of the best lighting as opposed to, you know, just pounding the character with light because you got a big light to use and see and just brightening up the screen. Yeah. Well, and that going back to the idea of experience, like I just shot a spec ad and film tools gave me a handful of aperture lights to use. One of them was the 1200D, but this was a night shoot. And I was like, okay, great, we're, we're going to be able to pound the street with light.

I'm going to be able to light up this whole street. And we're shooting in the arts district. So there's just tons of light everywhere. So that we had the, we had the, we had the 1200D on. Dude, I think it was at 11% or like 7%. Right. And that was just, because like the atlases we were using too. The 40 is a flare magnet.

So that was, it was just too, too much. Yeah. When we, on Ozark, when we would, you know, put an airy 360 in this, on a condor in the sky for a nighttime scene, we were always under 1% with the light. And sometimes I'd ask, can you bring that down to 0.25%? It's too much light. And my gaffer, I'd be like, it actually only goes to 0.5. I can't bring it down anymore. So it's, you don't need much for a lot of situations.

It is funny how the difference between lit and not lit really is like almost no light. It's like a light bulb's worth dimmed down. Yeah, I found that throughout my career, the further I get in my career, the less lights I use, or at least I try and use less. Sometimes I look up and I'm like, oh, how did 25 lights get into this little room? But most of the time, it's can I just light through the window? So, you know, can this one bulb do this effectively and tell the story? And I like being minimal if I can. It doesn't always work out that way, though.

Well, so that actually brings up a good question, which is how do you do that? How are you lighting with maybe just natural light or whatever and not having it look, A, unlit, like, you know, slapped together, let's say. Right. And, you know, keep it looking professional. Sure. Yeah. Well, lighting is really about the psychology behind the scene, right? So you want the lighting to inform the characters and reveal something about the story.

So I always look at lighting a scene from that perspective. So if I'm going to a scene and, you know, let's say it's a, you know, Marty Bird's walking into a, you know, warehouse and someone's, he's expecting someone to kill him. You don't want to blast that with, with light. You want to have maybe like a couple parkans or, you know, practicals on that are in little pockets that he's walking in and out of shadows to really build that mystery. So, you know, there's no, there's no specific answer. It's always, it's always based off, okay, what is the scene? What is the intention of the scene? What are we trying to say? And how can we reveal more about the character with the lighting?

I hate, I hate just being like, okay, let's light this room. you're like okay well what what are we saying you know it's it's always about telling the story and how you can tell the story better yeah well uh i'll jump back to ozark in a second but i did actually want to touch on um you you're saying that you started in sort of EPKs and music videos sure because um i personally so were you mostly doing uh or were you doing any like a DVD special features type of work? Yeah, I was doing, I had a weird mix because when I first started, I was, it was still in my design company.

So I was, you know, we would do, we did a couple EPKs that became sort of music video sort of things. And then we would do stuff for DVDs back in the DVD days. And then we would always make some design element into it too. But yeah, I never really fully shot. Like, I never got into the, a lot of, I know a lot of DPs came up fully shooting music videos. And I actually never really did that. It was more in the EPK design realm as opposed to videos.

Even after school, I started doing documentaries instead of music videos, because that's sort of what I fell into. I know the, the music, well, the reason I ask is because, A, the, we've talked a lot on this podcast about how important the DVD special features era was. Right. You know, like Blu-Rays, blue-rays still have special features, but they're often super polished and like they're more like press kits. They're not like how this got made. You know, there's like a solid maybe eight years of DVDs and, you know, whatever re-releases of older films that there's just like a guy with a VHS camera or whatever going around and you see people like arguing on set and shit. I can't remember. I think it's like, hellboy. Uh, I remember watching one recently. and I was like, oh, first of all, the Hellboy two making of documentaries longer than the film. Right, of course. Because it takes longer to make the movie. Yeah, and it's like, I find that stuff fascinating

and that's dead now and I'm very sad about it. But was that important to you? Were you a special features person? Before I asked the next question. I was because I always liked seeing how things were made. So if I saw something I loved, I really searched for it to find how the fuck

they did it because I wanted to know. Because I, a little, I've mentioned this to a few DPs. I want to somehow convince some streamer or some investor, someone, to buy all the rights to the special features. And we make our own educational, I guess, streamer just of special features. Right. Because I can't imagine that's an expensive, you know, rights. No, I mean, or the, or the, because it's part of the catalog, they might want. want companies might want night might not want to separate that and let it let it go but um oh fair but uh

i mean yeah that would be amazing if there's one place where all the behind the scene special feature was that would be incredible yeah it's like criterion and then whatever this is yeah i think you need to make that happen okay good so every time i bring it up everyone goes hell yeah so i'm like i don't know who i'm going to talk to but hopefully they're listening and can yeah sometimes it'll be weird like people will be like oh yeah i heard your podcast i'm like you're the VP of Viacom. Why the fuck are you? But the second question I was going to ask was, you know, the music video era is more or less

dead. All the music videos that get made tend to be the artists themselves kind of making them. Yeah. Do you see a current analog to sort of that era of not only output but import and creativity? well I mean I think this so much more is being made now because the the tools are more readily available so let me oh wait for this hold for plane so you know it's it's not necessarily one genre like you you know if you look at Vimeo or YouTube or it's just an explosion of content whether people you know a lot of it's the action sports or

or street life or you know any of that sort of stuff so you're seeing it a lot more and it's hard to curate and see what's what to be honest but um i love how everyone's creating i think that's it's incredible if you know when i when i first got out of school that's when the 5d uh came out and so that's when i first got into school yeah right so that and that for me that was an incredible tool because I was like, oh, I can get cinema style shooting shallow depth of field and not use, you know, before that I had been using, you know, these three chip, you know, shitty cameras that didn't have much shallow depth of field, like very video or film, you know, that was really the only, only choice. So when the 5D came out, it was sort of groundbreaking.

And so, and since that, I've always just been on top of what tools are coming out, what's out and how it can improve, you know, what I do. I did a film called Dragon Slayer, which won South by Southwest, and that was a documentary about falling a skateboard around named Screech. And literally, we were supposed to shoot for a month, and we just ended up following around for a year for, you know, none of us were getting paid. We just knew it was a great story.

And it ended up working out. But, you know, the 5D allowed let us do that and shoot in really cinematic way in a way that documentaries really hadn't been before, then um not that i did it the first that way but like that's the the 5d allowed that to sort of tool to for anyone to sort of make that happen um yeah and so um yeah i love i love where everything is right now where it's heading it's i mean it's phenomenal well you bring up i buy a lot of equipment oh do you even though i i preach uh you know it's not about the gear but in some ways you know you have to have something to shoot with so well it's that's actually

up something that has been said a lot by people of people saying all the time, like, oh, it's not about the gear. Because we know it's not, but I feel like you need to, yeah, I think you have to get past sort of the day one page one stuff. Right. Yep, you have to get to the point where gear no longer excites you in the same way, and then it starts to matter or something like that, you know, because it's easy to get to, I mean, like you were saying, the 5D coming out.

immediately everyone forgot in college for me. Everyone forgot about lighting and production design. Not, I shouldn't say for God, but like the attention to the, no one wanted to make their thing unless they could use the 5D because we had like four DVXs and one 5D. And everyone was like, well, even the 70, everyone was like, nah, it's useless. Right. Yeah.

You know, you get on your gear bandwagons and that's it, right? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it isn't, like you said, it is and it isn't about the gear. You just, as long as the equipment is sort of giving the tools that can, that you can use the, you know, the tools of cinematography to tell your story, depth of field, focal lengths, you know, color science, like, and all of those are, are adequate, you know, that's, that's what matters. Yeah. Yeah. You had said something else that piqued my interest, and now I've forgotten it. By the way, speaking of gear, if you can see, I'm taking a part of camera right now, I'm putting it back together. Oh, what is that? Is that a red?

It's the Sigma FPL, and I bought this adapter to take this, make it a flip screen because it doesn't flip screen, and I totally fucked it up. And now it's, my screen doesn't work. That was what I was in the middle of before. before I was talking to you. You know, that's funny. Bring that camera up because I went to Sigma Burbank for the release of that camera to write like a coverage article. And it fascinated me because it did seem cool and it just never took off. You know, it's the world's tiniest full frame camera.

As far as I can tell, the color science is pretty good. It's great. So actually what it is used for and almost all the rental houses have it now is as a director, finder so because you can uh change the it's got a menu system where you can select like sony venice and 6k and you know the the aspect ratio and you can you can shoot uh you can line up a shot and it's exactly what the venice uh sizing will be so that's that's i use it for that a lot and the color looks great i remember matthew duclos saying that uh because he was there um and he he's a friend of going to. But he was saying that he's going to make, or was planning on making a whole viewfinder

like handle and setup for the FP. But that was like three years ago for you. So maybe he got on that. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't seen it from him. But, um, sorry. For some reason, my computer decided to throw a very loud notification at me. I didn't hear what you said. Oh, uh, yeah. I said that I haven't seen that from him, but tell him if he's going to make it, I'll buy it. Fair enough. You know, apparently his dad, like, invented the first one. The first viewfinder. Or, like, maybe the most popular one or something.

Oh, I'd have to ask him. Yeah. I'll let him know he's got at least one buyer. He's a huge tinker. Like, I'm sure you could throw one together on it. He's got, like, 3D printers in his office just to this. Oh, awesome. Yeah.

Tell him to email me. I will. Or if he's listening right now. He might be. He was on the podcast. You know, we had a whole lens. month. Lens month was great. I learned so much. Do you have the Siney Lens manual? I'm getting it. I haven't purchased it yet, but I mean, they're, those guys are geniuses.

It's too, it's too good. And it's funny because it's like, you know, we can poo poo Instagram, but it is a way to see what other DPs are doing. And the week that came out, my feed was nonstop Sini Lens manual. And I was just like DMing, uh, um, Holben, because he was on the podcast. guys. And I was like, dude, this is like really taking off. And he's like, I know. It's got to be, it's going to be, he's going to make millions. No, it's going to be in like every, every DP's hand. Like it has, it's, it's sitting next to my, um, ASC manual. I feel like they have to hand in hand. It has to be because, I mean, the fact that nothing like this existed before is, is incredible. It's, it's the manual of, of lenses. So everyone should have one. Well, and especially in this sort of day and age, bad phrase, but where it's all right, where there's so much disinformation, or I shouldn't even say disinformation, but misinformation about crop factor, like I hate the crop factor conversation. I got into an argument that I actually had Duke Lose just solved for me about focal reducers.

This guy was very adamant on YouTube that he was like, again, incredible. incredibly easy to test. And I was like, but you're wrong. I just emailed Matthew and I was like, is he right? And he was like, no. What did he say? Oh, so he was saying that like, for example, if you were to put a 50 millimeter on a focal reducer, you know, a speed booster, that you inherit all the quote unquote look of full frame. He's like, you get shallower depth of field, you get faster lenses, you get blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, actually, you get a wider depth the field because now you're shooting a 35 or whatever and he's just like this is incredibly easy to test and I was like more yeah so it's nice to have something in that in that book that's

like proves here yeah prove you could literally throw the book at him yeah and it's it hurt it's a massive book yeah I don't do that actually yeah I felt bad for the FedEx guy I was like Oh, boy. Yeah, I can't wait to get it. Is there any other sort of, because there are gear people. I'm certainly one of them. But is there any other, like, a gear that kind of gets you excited? For me, weirdly enough, the Kino Flow LED panels are the best things I've ever used.

I've heard that, like, apparently Kinos, I don't know, I shouldn't say they're not doing well. I don't know anything about that, but like no one uses them that much. Right. And I'm trying to get people, like, I have no business doing this, but like, I want people to use them because they're, I was getting a hundred TLCI. Oh, wow. Amazing. They're basically perfect. Yeah.

We, we used them on Ozark. We had a, we had this, the two footer, four foot, the thinner ones. We used them a lot to pop in an highlight. They're, they're like this, you know. Yeah, yeah. The freestyle. The long ones. Yeah, freestyle.

And we'd use them a lot, you know, for, we need to use them a lot, you know, for, we need to be. needed a little kick on the skin or an eye light or something just to kind of bring in a little bit up close. They saved her asses a bunch of times. They're super light too. They're great. I mean, there's so many lights that I love out there right now. But also, I own a couple of Sony Venice's.

I have the Sony Venice 2, the Sony Venice. Those cameras to me have changed a lot because just about their workflow, like the, the gradual NDs, the one-step NDs, so you go from 3 to 2.1 incrementally, which the Alexis can't do. And that's a huge time saver in itself on set. To be able to put it in realto mode and break off the front element so you can make it very small. And then the dual ISO is incredible. So I've been using since a year after they came out. So it last three or four years and haven't used anything else since then. So why, I mean, I kind of know the answer, but why would you buy to Venice's as opposed to renting? Well, so I have, that's actually a great

question. You know, I've always bought gear and then rented out, rented them out to the productions that I'm on and then also had the rental houses when I'm not working on him. Oh, you parked the cameras at the rental house? Yeah, I have in the past, yeah. So I think it's actually important as a cinematographer, you're building your business, right? So, and equipment you use frequently is part of that. So it's very helpful to, A, always be able to have the gear that you want to use whenever you want to use it. Because a lot of times a project will be budget deficient. And, you know, if you have it, you can find a way to make it work into that budget. But also, it's hard to get by with just your DP rate, you know, really no matter what is coming in.

So having that gear, it's supplementing that. And then if you figure out a way to, you know, pay it off for shoot, it's always a bonus. So, you know, I only just had two cameras recently because of Sony Venice 2 came in. But I like to have one. And then, you know, most of those shows that I'm doing are at least two cameras. it's good for the rental house to have one and I have one and depending on what lenses we use they you know either they I have some lenses too so I have the soft master built soft layers oh cool but you know it just my lenses really depend on the show like what the show calls for so

it's good to have it but I don't push it if it's not right for the show well and the the camera seems these days much less important from a visual perspective then your lens choice. Yeah, yeah, camera, I mean, you know, Sony, airy, red, you know, they all have great picture quality. So it's just a question of how you use the sensor. And you can get great results with any of those. So it's not like before.

Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, I have a C500 mark two. And it's like I always feel weird because every magazine, every book, whatever, always mentioned Sony Red R.E. Right. Sorry. I forgot. I forgot Canon. No, but no one used. I'm just kind of fascinated, like, why there's certainly little things that I'm like, well, that would annoy people. But like why it never, especially with like the 5D being what, you know, quote unquote revolutionized in digital cinema, no one,

no one sat on the Canon cinema cameras beyond documentary. Right. They're so easy to use. It's like, all right, we'll use it on a film. they're like, oh, and, yeah, I, I, I, I, I maybe part of that is how they're, they're built, they're kind of built, their build of those cameras are more geared towards, uh, owner operator, you know, take it out and shoot kind of things. Um, whereas, you know, the boxy nature and how the, the, the, the accessory nature of these other cameras are built more to build it out like a cinema camera. Not to say you can't do that with a cannon, but, uh, it seems like they, they gear their, maybe they're marketing more towards those kind of those kind of shoots but I've never tried it

I'd do I'd love to try them just haven't yet it's nice but to your point it is like one thing I like about it is as an owner operator it's much easier to literally as you're saying like you build a client because I'm I do a lot of like corporate stuff these days yeah it's great for that perfect I is perfect especially because kind of to your point about owning the Venice and being able to get a rate on it, but maybe work with the budget. It's something that I've tried to explain to sort of newer DPs is like, don't, I was talking to a guy recently, and he was like, I bought a commoto and I'm only going to, I'm going to wait until I buy a set of Vista primes, Tokinas, before I shoot with it because I need to make sure it's all perfect. Like, I'm not

using that black magic unless people pay me nothing, basically. And I was like, yeah, Yeah, but if you're real looks a certain way, because he had a good reel. People are hiring you on that. And if you don't like the budget and you show up phoning it in, no one's going to want to work with you again. So fuck whichever camera you have. It's much better to own the thing that you like, in his case, Komoto, whatever, Venice. Right.

And work that budget into it, be like, all right, I'll give you half off to use the thing that you know you're going to do your best work on. Yeah. Versus going, oh, they couldn't afford it. So, fuck it. Right. Yeah, exactly. Or don't take those projects. Or, yeah, or just bailout.

But if you believe in the project and they have a low budget. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Got to believe. Yeah, definitely. Don't. We were talking a little bit off camera, but one piece of advice for everyone.

If it, if you believe in your gut. Right. If it doesn't feel right. Yeah. It doesn't feel right. Bail out. Right. You don't have to have that job.

One of the don't do what I did lessons is always starts with that probably. Trust your gut on projects. If it seems like it's bullshit, probably is. Yeah. It's funny. I don't know if it's if it has something to do with the, I don't know what it is, but I've noticed recently more and more. A, we've said on this podcast a lot, like, especially for film, people seem to think there's a correct answer to, lighting or framing or whatever you know we have so many educational resources that it can seem

prescriptive you know you have to do this um and more and more i'm finding that uh much more important to go with what feels correct yeah as long as it feels good in the moment generally it's correct the second you overthink it you're going to get in the edit and be like oh why didn't i just go with the first thought or like why didn't i go with the second thoughts a lot of times you know right yeah it's very true it's it's there is no rules. I mean, it's just what works for the story and what it works for you and use your instincts. And, you know, I have seen a lot of videos where it's like they're teaching the correct way to light. And of course, there's learning basics and what things do and, and how the lights work

and how diffusion works and bounces and how, you know, how to illuminate things. But when it comes down to it, you know, you, you know, you can get a, you know, a tube, an overhead fluorescent tube and that might be all you need, you know, so, um, just go with, go with what you can, what's within your reach and, you know, make it work. Hold for playing. Hold for playing. This is that moment brought to you by. Right.

Yeah. A lens man. Um, yeah. moment is in um you should do a moment as then like a middle of your podcast actually just uh right instead of an ad read yeah i don't have any sponsors so it's i could just uh you do whatever whatever the fuck you want just a quiet little all right so we've learned a lot today so let me just take a moment soak it in i think it's it's a crop duster i think it's it sounds like a lawnmower in air.

Yeah, that's probably some prop plane. Yeah. I am in North Carolina, so that's likely. Yeah. What was I going to say about it? I can hear that noise reducer in Zoom just doing overtime right now. Make a computer blow up. Yeah.

What was I going to say about the trusting your gut thing? Oh, when you're learning lighting and composition and stuff, oftentimes because you don't have a script, I think this is a hard thing for a lot of people is, like, people want to learn things sort of in a vacuum. Right. And without the context of the script, it's hard to say, like, what the correct way to light. So you just end up going, I don't know, three point light. Like, everything becomes Rembrandt, you know, portrait lighting. Yeah.

And until you have the experience of, like, being on set and not being able or not needing to do that sort of Rembrandt, portrait lighting. you don't know what to do yeah yeah well that's why it's good to learn the basics and learn you know what's what looks beautiful what you like and so you can use it when you need to or just totally curb it and and do um do what the story calls for um and that's i mean that's that's what that's what's what's learning you're doing music videos and learning on learning on set and you know just working on set and seeing how other people do it is is great But yeah, I mean, learn it all. And also watch movies and see how some of the great grates do it.

And that's the best way to do it. And just if you can find the BTS from your new BTS company, then find it and see how they're doing it. It rarely talks about the cinematography, unfortunately, because it's always director-actor-centric for the BTS a lot of the times. but there's some stuff out there and there's a lot of resources especially the ASC has a bunch and yeah absolutely podcasts and you know this podcast is a wealth of it so at this point yeah it's we started off strong with uh well first it was my uh my friend johnny derango he's a DP he kind of did the the um the prototype we didn't think about making it a podcast really i mean Like, we did a podcast, but it wasn't necessarily, we didn't know what it was yet.

And then my first, like, true guest was Josh Richards, who shot Nomadland. Oh, nice. So that really just ramped up the, the, the, uh, the, uh, cachet, I suppose. So I was able to get some really great guests, such as yourself. He killed him. I loved it. Oh, yeah, so good. Um, again, simple lighting.

Yeah. Well, that's, that's a wait till, wait till golden hour every day. that's a good that's actually his movie is a great example because um really it's just about timing when you're shooting and not shooting when you went in the light is bad um and look what that did for his film you know it's like they would shoot sunset sunrise they'd find the right moments and they wouldn't shoot otherwise um or if they did they would go inside and shoot something inside and you know it's just like one light in a trailer um yeah and a single light single source lighting could be beautiful you know it's like it's all you need i don't even

sure he actually even used any lights in that film it feels like it right he must have i think he said i think he said he truly mostly just used bounce right yeah and like yeah which is great you just have to do something like that discipline has to be on board not just you as the dp but the director has to be on board with that. The producers have to be on board with that, and especially the AD, and everything has to revolve around shooting in the right light. Otherwise, that concept doesn't work because, and you just end up with shit some of the time because you're like, oh, well, we had to shoot midday, mid-sun, because that's what the schedule allowed. It was like, no, if you're going to, if you're going to embrace these sunsets and sunrises and natural looks, you've got a schedule

around it and that's actually the hardest part of making a movie or TV show is you do not have the time to do that and so what happened what you find happening is that you're using more lights to make it look like there's less light right when it's not scheduled property properly so yeah I was going to ask about if you had any kind of influences but we are kind coming up on time so i do want to maybe maybe we can touch on that for a second but i do want to get into to ozark a little bit but yeah um were there any like filmmakers or dps coming up that you uh sort of gravitated to and thought that's my look and if so did any of that translate to ozark right um i would actually say no i i i kind of absorb i have so many different

influences in terms of styles of films um and dPs and I kind of take things from everything for what I like. And I don't have, there's so many great TPs. I don't have like one or five or ten. You know, I learned from everything that I see that I like. So, you know, of course, there's a lot of people doing consistent, great work. But I think, and because of that, that helped me with Ozark because I don't have one style. I'm kind of a chameleon.

so I can adapt what my lighting is to the story. And I think that's why the higher-ups that brought me in Ozark that probably appealed to them. So, and I do it from a filmmaker, a film perspective, like what is the story need? What does it tell? So that definitely helped in lighting Ozark because I could adapt to what's already been done,

but making my own in a lot of way. one of my notes was actually because I watched the Ruby episode, is that her name? Ruth. Ruth, I watched her episode sort of in the middle of the fourth season. I just jumped right into there. Luckily, Netflix gave me like a full trailer.

Here's what, it was like, here's what happened for the whole series up until now. And I was like, how did you know? Well, it's two part, because it was in two parts. It was part one, which is the first seven episodes. And then it's part two where I came in. I started episode eight. Oh, so I did eight, nine, and ten, and then the finale, 14.

Gotcha. Oh, so you didn't shoot that one? I did. Episode eight. Was it eight? It was, uh, oh, eight, nine, ten. It was the first episode of part two. Okay, yeah, it must have been that then.

Because I had to go on, because I already made this mistake once where it was a TV show and I watched the wrong, like the DP didn't shoot that episode. So he's like, oh, that one looked. great but yeah that wasn't mean i was like fuck um so i watched that one and then i picked some uh ruth episode from the first season and the the look is remarkably uh similar like you've done a great job of keeping that consistency thanks was there a sort of look book for that show i know i remember when it first came out everyone was not everyone but i remember popular articles like arguing that it looked like i don't know uncorrected log or something i was like this show looks great. I don't know what it's, yeah, it's green, but everything's green in the

Ozart. Like, you know, it's, I think, I think the degree of how, from season one and two to season three and four, the look change pretty significantly in terms of the shade, the, the light, the lookup table and the shade of green that was in there. Also, the cameras change. And season three changed to Sony Venice and they had been using the Vericam in the first two seasons. Oh, wow. And a Ben and Armando, who shot, um, three and two, I think Ben was also in the first season, did it, did an incredible job. And what Ben particularly did was he, he, um, he made the budget, um, how do I put this? He, uh, he made the budget, let me, we're going to erase that part of it out.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He, uh, what Ben did in particular was, he made it mandatory that, um, that, um, that, um, that, that negative was a priority in the budget on the grip side. So we always have negative fills. So we always have two loals, which are these tractor crane devices that have 20-bys or 30-by negatives on them. And we base everything with sort of blocking out the sun or direct light.

We kind of have this joke that there's no sunlight in Ozark. And then what that allows you to do is sort of bring in your, you're however you want to key the characters up close or far away, but it allows you to sculpt it in a way that you couldn't do it if there was direct sun sort of hitting the characters. So that we're using that as our base of shooting. That allows you, it creates a certain look, but it also used to sort of do what you want.

And it still will seem similar to what the, all the other episodes are because we're using that as a base to create our light in a lot of ways in outdoor scenarios. right um yeah does that answer the question yeah well that's that's something interesting because like building a look based on massive negative fill i think is potentially correct me from wrong but like easier than trying to base a look on uh everything's top lit or every you know having like a specific lighting package or or a sort of prescriptive um yeah lighting setup yeah because if you're you know if you're working off the negative you know you're you know you're

You're already, to me, that's the most, that's the, I live on the dark side, you know, I like, I like being there. So, um, it certainly creates a distinctive look in a way that, you know, top light wouldn't or other, other lights. And you can, it's easier if you have the tools, um, because a lot of times in TV, you're moving so fast, you have to shoot throughout the day. What it allows you to do is really, actually do that because you can, you're taking off anything that would be harmful to the light of the characters and make, and you're like, like, letting you sculpt it in a way that you need to. And then Sean Kim, who started the season and we alternated in the second part, who was an incredible DP. He really, he built, he built the looks that were basing everything off of for the whole season.

So I would just look at what, you know, I'd looked at what he did before I came in and then, you know, talked to him about it. And it's the same crew. So we would always have those discussions like, is this Ozark? Is it not Ozark? And then it crew is incredible. They're there, you know, some of them been on for all four seasons. and they're they're really you know they were really there to guide me and you know if i did something

too crazy they'd be like that's not ozark and then you know it's the back off that's cool though that like you you love to hear when a crew it all kind of has the same vision in their head oh yeah they're incredible so dedicated and master craftsmen and um um so many great people can you can you walk me through what uh i i will say something that i suppose maybe he wasn't Ozark, but it was a shot that I literally paused and went like, God damn, you won that one. Is when Ruth, Ruth's in the diner?

Yes. Yeah. She's in the window. Uh-huh. Yeah. Talk me through that and why they let you get away with making that the pretty shot in the fucking show. Yeah. Well, so it's interesting because you want, like, you, that goes back to making things your own. And that I, we, Amanda Marcellis and the director,

I, the director and I felt, okay, this is a moment. she's sort of outside that Ozark world and this it's like a potential color she could expand she could change her life you know and she just she doesn't but the option is there and for me the color was the best way to sort of tell that story in that scene and yes you're correct I was wondering is this going to get me fired um after they see the dailies on this but the great thing about Ozark is it's so filmmaker-centric, and there's no one on set telling you, no, you can't do that because you've had all these discussions beforehand, and they're so encouraging to the director and to the DP and letting you tell a story in a way from a filmmaker

point of view as opposed to a TV factory method where you're just churning things out. So you notice that, you know, the difference between eight and nine are pretty similar in some ways, but 10 is a totally different thing. And then, you know, at 14 is a different thing. It was, you know, all different directors. You know, Jason, Bateman directed the finale. Oh, cool. And then Amanda directed 8, 9, and Melissa directed 10.

And they're all different, you know, in a lot of ways. They bring their own things to it. Also, shout out to Killer Mike. Oh, amazing. He was great. You never know how a musician's going to. a musician is going to be on camera but he was he felt pretty natural and killed it so he's a super incredible nice guy too and inspiration i'm a big fan of his yeah can you walk me through

kind of then what uh because again like i said off camera but like i hadn't gotten the i've had the chance to watch ozark i just haven't sat down and done it but now having that's why this podcast is so good because it forces me to watch things then i'm like okay good yes this is good so it is it like it really it got me quick just that one episode like I was like I'm in I don't really know what's going on but I get it like this is all works um but for people who have seen the show can you walk me through kind of um generally how you are approaching the sort of like all the all the cinematography is all the camera work is very considered you know very locked off solid moves right but that combined with what a typical

typical how you are, you know, because you're not just throwing up the big piece of nag. You've also got some light or some reflection or something going on. Yeah. Walk me through kind of like a basic make up a scene in your head, I suppose, and how you would approach or maybe pick one from that episode. Sure, from the, from the Ruth episode. Yeah. I'm sure you got people saying you got to go because it's now 12. No, no, no, it's all good. No worries. Um, so, uh, let's, Let me think. Okay, so they're walking through the,

so that Killer Mike episode. Let's see. What's a scene at the end? And we can talk about it. I mean, we could talk about that scene itself. Well, one, we shut down early because there was gunshots outside of the, outside of the. Lovely.

So we ended that day early. So there would have been more to that scene probably. But, yeah, I mean, you, You go into it, thinking, okay, what is, where was the character before this? Where is the character going to go to during the episode? And where is the character at the end of this? Where it's the emotional state, where it has it moved the story forward? And then once you talk about those beats with the director, it's really, how do we tell the story?

Is it through the shot selection? Is it the framing? is it the lighting and what are we trying to say and so that that particular episode is ruth's journey you know it's really her dissent into into into i don't want to use their word hell but like you know it's she's she's going bottom floor and what what's going to happen is it going to be is she going to be saved or is going to be too late for her at the end of this episode and so every all of the filmmaking is there's a lot of driving in that episode

and you know we usually we actually have an LED screen for driving stuff we have it on stage we pick the backgrounds beforehand and you know we really

we do it that way because one is better for TV you can control it more it works better with the schedule everyone fucking hates process trailer shots like it's a pain in the ass to shoot and usually it doesn't have air conditioning you get air conditioning well not when you're sitting on the back of the trailer but the actor does oh you get you get on stage yes you're right yeah yeah air conditioning so but for me like you that's great if you're long lens

and you're inside the car but you anything where you sort of look halfway in the car and halfway out just looks completely fake no matter what you do um and you really it limits how what your shots are and she's so real and her emotion is so real in the scene we decided we had to shoot on process trailer because that was better for her character and for the story and that was actually kind of the only um fight we've ever had in ozark not a fight really but like they didn't want us to shoot um you know on process trailer for understandably because it's a fucking pain in the ass and it proved to be because we lost half a day because of rain and you know had to make it up at another half a day. So they're completely correct. But it was right for the story to

put her on the trailer. And so that, you know, you see shots where you see the Chicago skyline or you see the open road that we wouldn't have been able to get if we were doing it on the LED stage, at least to me in a way that felt real. And everything in that, everything in the episodes about her raw emotions. So you really, anything that felt phony or forced would really take the audience out of it, and we just didn't want that. She's amazing in the episode, by the way. Oh, yeah, she's incredible. She just, her transformation and her downfall,

I won't give anything away for people that haven't seen it. Yeah, I will say the way that, the way that office scene plays out towards the end, let's say. I love, I love the speed. Right. You know, if I'm trying to speak in code here. Sure. you know of how that just plays out you know very simply i was like oh i wonder nope got it yeah yep

you're hoping this whole time she won't go there she won't go there or if you're twisted and sick you're hoping she does go there and yeah it something happens where you're like oh this is going to change the rest of the series yeah so that you know it was a great uh uh the the craziest uh trailer i could have possibly gotten for this series right yeah Was it a trailer for that episode or was it? No, no, I mean that episode. Oh, that's my foray into the show. Right.

Yeah. They're all crazy in some way, but that one's definitely, it's unique in that space. Yeah. So kind of wrapping up that thought, though, when you were saying that's not Ozark, that is that is Ozark. What is Ozark? When you have those conversations, what is it? Well, I mean, honestly, that's every person on crew has their own opinion about what. what is and what isn't Ozark.

But it's keeping the contrast is, you know, Ozark's a contrasty show. Not necessarily feeling the need to light everything. You know, it's characters play in and out of shadows. It's also how the light falls and colors, you know. But then again, you see how we did it in that episode with the Killer Mike scene. People would say that's not Ozark,

but we made it part of the show and made it work for the story. So it became, you know, so you have to, it matches really well. Right. So you have to, you know, you have to pick your battles and say, okay, this might not have been Ozark, but you know what? Now it is, and this is, that's how this is going to change. So it's just taking chances.

Yeah, we did a little bit of color and later on too for a scene I thought called for in a different episode. And then, you know, it's, it worked there too. So it's sort of, it's sort of, you know, not, not blowing the, viewer over with something totally different but making it still feel like the same language so we kept contrast the same and you know and the down lighting so it's not like a you know bright key like those are all Ozark things that we do and you know put it into that I noticed I noticed in the house they're kind of the family's kind of having like an argument yeah it feels like it's literally

just there's no lights in the house and it just feels like sunlight coming through some glass doors or something. Yeah. Is that kind of how you guys play interiors a lot of the time? It's just like only natural light and just let it ride or are you putting a lot of fixtures out there? Usually only do fixtures in the night stuff. So yeah, a lot of the times it's sunlight coming through the windows and playing it that way for the daytime scenes. Because, you know, you can have a big soft source and they can play in that space and still get a lot of negative. So that was definitely a theme of of doing daytime scenes in the house um so yeah yeah are um talk to me about your uh how the colorist you know you said you said you switched luts like what a what was that sort of difference

but me how how much work is being done in the grade is it just a tint thing or is it you know was it more you know that kind of yeah so sean had Sean had developed what's called a show lot, two show luts that during prep when he first started. And that was sort of, that's what we would view everything as. So Mexico had this warmer show lot. And then the rest of Ozark world had a, you know, more green or bluish Ozark Lut. But it actually did change quite a bit in the color correction. Tim Stepan is the colorist from Company 3. And he's incredible. And he's been doing it since the first season. So he's evolved the look the whole way.

And he was great. He's an incredible colors. Like he would find things and kind of massage the colors and add life to it in a way that it didn't have when we're on set. Because, you know, you can you can play with the colors and pop them out more in the color correction suite. So that's, that's great going in there and seeing it come to life in a lot of ways. It have really evolved. Yeah. Because they're not completely different.

It's just, you know, stages, you know. Well, and with a show let, there's only so much, like, I, because something that I've talked about a lot on this podcast is how I feel like cinematography these days firmly has one foot in post. Like, you're never really getting the exact look on set. And the show let will show you, I feel like everyone pretty much gets 90% of the way there because you know in the grade, you're going to like, all right, we can, we can windows. that that's not we can knock that down that that won't matter like right it's a time saver in that way you know correct or or just making it look pretty yeah exactly or not pretty ugly is good too yeah um was there is there anything that you uh learn shooting this uh uh show that maybe is applicable to the um rest of your career so it's going forward so to speak oh yeah i might be too close to it to

really um put a name on it but um yeah i mean anytime you're doing something for five months where you're intensely in it um you're going to learn some lessons what to do what's not to do so i'm sure next year if i teach a class to get an afi it'll be a big part of what not to do and and maybe a couple to dos i don't know but i couldn't i could i put a could i put a name or a finger on any of it um I don't think I could right now. I think I'm too close to it. Sometimes he takes a minute to figure all that out. Oh, trust me.

I process things slow. It's a few months later and I'm like, oh, that's what they were trying to tell. Oh, yeah. It's usually the second time I've made the mistake. Right. No, that's fine. We'll turn that off. Okay, that worked.

that's fine we i have kept you a little longer than uh i should have but um the uh we'd you know we'll have you back on you know next year sometime maybe we can yeah answer that question and talk about whatever it is your problem or this film i guess whatever film you're filming sure yeah that'd be great yeah i'd love that um but uh the way that we end every podcast is with the same two questions um sure the first one we've kind of gone over a little bit but uh is there any sort of thing you've read or a piece of advice that you were given that is stuck with you over the years. It doesn't have to be film-centric and it doesn't have to be the piece of advice, but maybe just something that kind of comes up. Sure. I mean, I don't know who I learned it from

or it's more just a life pursuit lesson is on mindfulness. And if you don't have your mind in your body right, how are you going to have your life and your work, right? So whatever that means for each individual, whether it's meditation, you know, working out, yoga, et cetera, reading philosophy, it's really figuring out what that works for you and how to really get everything correct inside your head. And that will translate once you can figure that out in some way, because it's a lifelong pursuit, how to apply that to work life too. that's a whole other topic the long we could go for hours on that that was a huge

lesson for me because I was very let's say energetic person right and you know what's funny is everyone I've spoke to I have like friends that are a bit younger than me and I'll be like when you turn 27 something changes and you're going to start thinking that the random should I've talked about about needing like literally a meditation day or whatever, like not even a day to myself, just a day of silence or whatever or it's, you know, taking those moments. I'm like, you're going to want that too. And they're like, no, I'm just, no, trust me. I don't need the energy. Slow as smooth, smooth as fast, you know, like it's true. Yeah, that's, we'll have to do another podcast just on that. Getting the mind right. But second question,

If, kind of geared towards films, but we'll make it work for television, if let's say Ozark has a film, was in a double feature, what would the other feature be? Oh, man. Can I pick a genre in the multiple features? Sure. Well, yeah, because this is the thing. Like, it can be complementary. It can be contrasting. It can be an idea.

Yeah. I mean, to me, like, 70s noir kind of gritty films come to mind, like Eddie Coyle, friends of Eddie Coyle and Thief, Michael Mann, and, you know, God, you know, films in that era, this sort of gritty, contrasty, you know, crazy colored, but green because of that's, you know, they're shooting with a lot of fluorescence. That's really what comes to mind. I would put anything, something in those veins like, like that. What's the, the Ben, there's another film that was popping in my head, but I can't remember.

I'm terrible with names of films, but, you know, something in that genre, I think, just grittiness and raw in some ways. For sure. Yeah, you're actually like the second or third person to recommend Friends of Eddie Coyle. Yeah, it's great. I mean, it's, cinematically, it's, it's not a masterpiece, but there's just something about it that's just, you know, really appealing. And I think it's the colors and the, you know, the characters and the way the camera moves.

And it's just, I love that movie. Cool. Yeah. Secretly, what I do is I get all these suggestions and then I immediately just go by the Blu-ray. I've got a great collection now of, like, DP-approved films. Ben Gazzar. That's why I was Ben Gazzar and he plays He runs a strip

Strip tease It's who is it's I'll text it to you I was like I can ask the internet Yeah ask the internet There needs to be IMDB needs a Like seven degrees They really do

Feature Oh the killing of a Chinese bookie Oh okay Yeah that's annoying that was right at the top and I ignored it right killing of a Chinese movie in that vein if they made a seven degrees future you could be like this actor and this DP and it just gave you a list or whatever

that'd be very useful but IMDB is not an academic website no they make finding I pass by the cast and crew button all the time it didn't it used to be so easy to find right like any given movie and now it's like here's the top two actors and a shit ton of ads right yeah because like anything they don't give a shit about the casting crew they don't give the about the crew it's just a it's about other things yeah brad pitt's face right exactly you all like looking at but

great face great one of the best faces um did you see the lost city no i did not has he kind of play he's got a comedy yeah yeah it's it's a like a romantic comedy but they earn their dorkiness like it's it's I went in thinking like oh good because I got brought to it my sister was like it's good and my girlfriend was like I want to see it and I was like okay and then I went and saw it's pretty good but Brad Pitt is in it and I won't ruin it for you because I guess it's on it's already on like Paramount or HBO or one of you know it's already on the streamer got but he has a fun his part's fun I'll check it out if you need a goofy romantic you know comedy type day. There you go. I might. We're on splits this week, so I might need something at 4 a.m.

to put me to bed. Perfect. Well, thanks for spending the time with me, and that was a lot of fun. And I'd love to have you back on next time you have something to talk about. Or if you just want to come hang out, that's, that offer's always open. I'd love that. Thanks, Kenny. Frame and reference is an Owlott production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the Ethad Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.