Frame & Reference Podcast - 67: "Made for Love" Director Wendey Stanzler

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with Wendy Stanzler, director of "Made for Love." Wendy has directed a episodes of a number of amazing shows including “Parks and Recreation”, “90210”, “Desperate Housewives”, “Grey’s Anatomy” and more recently “For All Mankind.” Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we've done it again, everyone. We had a wonderful conversation. I don't even know I bother introing these things. It's always like, yeah, this conversation slaps. you're going to learn a lot and have a lot of fun um this week we're talking with wendy sandsler she is the director of made for love um as well as for all mankind over on the apple tv plus um good night great little sci-fi show um you know and a ton of other television as well

but um you know on on this podcast when i interview dPs i'm talking more to them uh you know trying to pick their brains a little bit learn some um and we're talking so special specifically about cinematography, but with directors, I've learned, I've found that we get to talk a lot more about the art form itself, which I think is great because that's, there's a lot of value in that for every person on a film set, you know, to know where priorities lie for a director, but not all, but not only that, thinking about the art as a whole and moving as a team. So it's really fun when I get to talk to directors and learn a little bit more from their perspective.

Obviously, we talk about cinematography, cinematographers from her perspective, but also, like I said, the art inform in general. So, you know, and share a lot of laughs on the way. So I will let you get to listening. Please enjoy my conversation with Wendy Stansler. I understand you grew up in Flint, and I grew up in a small-ish town, and movies definitely were the escape. Was the same for you?

Totally. Yeah, it was, I mean, I look back with great fondness. And, you know, even before this horrible water crisis there, I always appreciated that my values were kind of developed in a working class place because entitlement is something that I find pretty repugnant. And so, you know, great work ethic, you know, surrounded by people with amazing work ethics. And, you know, sadly they believed in the American dream

and their dreams were crushed. But my childhood was still filled with hope and possibility. And, yeah, I mean, quite frankly, there's a seminal moment that I will share with you, which is I'm in Michigan State, which is a great state school, land grant college, home of the world's largest hairball. Not kidding.

But I was there in a revival house, no, yeah, watching Back to the Future, which is a great movie, right? And I'd seen it and I was like, oh, this is fun. And then I like the message of the movie just somehow like distorted into like its pure essence while I was in the theater. And that was if you are an hourly employee, say working at a fast food place, you are less than. a real estate agent, or what was he, an insurance salesman, and went back in time to, like, change the trajectory because an hourly working job, you know, is less than and you're less than. And I was sitting in this theater full of people that worked in the automobile industry, hourly employees, and I was looking at them holding their large popcorns and large sodas that probably

set them back even then 15 bucks, which is more than they made an hour. That's not even minimum wage now. And you know, bringing their family and spending their money and getting this message that whether they picked up on it or not, like a direct

assault on everything they were. And I at that moment thought, now these are the real heroes. Why aren't we watching stories about them? Like it does it have to be in the suburbs. Do they have to be middle class? Does it have to be, do they have to be white? Do they

have to, you know, on and on and on? And I just thought, you know what, if I can ever realize a dream, it will be to tell stories about people who normally don't get stories told about them because, you know, perhaps it's not sexy or perhaps it's not aspirational in the Hollywood sense of it. So that is a really big moment for me. And it was a very personal internal thing, but it just, I'll never forget that, like epiphany. It's, it's funny you bring that up because I'm kind of, I don't know, proud of you is not the right word, but I'm glad you clocked that early because that actually had to be explained to me kind of recently.

It's like, that's the one part of the movie that isn't very rad. Like, his family turned into a bunch of schmucks. Yeah. They're like, you know, they have nice. cars and everything. They're like, what is the very 80s word I'm trying to think of? That's pretty good. But yeah, no, but like, you know, not the opposite of hippies. Whatever. You know, American psycho, basically that. But yeah, where it's like that, they were making that value judgment. And in the film's eyes, this was better. And I was like, I as a kid, I did not

pick up on that but of course like that is that is not why couldn't they be doing the same thing just happier like why couldn't biff get his comeuppance but still maybe they maybe they do have a nicer life but why did they have to suddenly be tennis playing why does that make you better person you know does that really make you a better person yeah it doesn't and yeah it was a really like the message just came through in this way that was just just it still resonates and And that was a long time ago, trust me. And, you know, I think things have changed. We're talking about television, and, you know, the face of television and programming has changed.

And there are more voices, and it's the beginning. And it hopefully will continue to do that. But, you know, there are, you know, the bear or there are like these great new shows where, you know, they're kind of in the trenches with people that are struggling and living lives. and having interesting experiences and being captivating in that way. So, yeah, it's interesting. I completely appreciate storytelling when it comes to, like, outside the box stories and outside the box heroes and heroines. You know, I'm into really the female heroes even more looking for situations that provide the opportunity to tell those stories.

as well. But yeah, it's interesting. I don't know that everybody kind of comes to that, but it certainly speaks to your, you know, sensitivity and your political kind of. I appreciate that you kind of found that too. Because nobody else ever, I've never kind of, I've told the story a few times. And it seems just sort of like, you know, oh, you know, the next question. It's like, I think the issue is that it's kind of Because even Marty Like now he gets his fancy new car and he's like I fucking made it And it's I think it's

Easy to get wrapped up in the emotion of the scene Which is life is better You know and you're not you don't really think too deep about Yeah That situation but his parents definitely The second someone pointed it I was like Oh they are kind of gross now aren't they Um

Was it always movies with you, or were there other, like, art form? Did you kind of, like, start in photography or anything? Or is that, where are you much more of the story element, obviously, the photos, yeah. This is a friend's photography. Dan White, who's a great photographer in Kansas City, who's done some amazing portraiture. I've always really loved photography. I love visual arts. I took art classes the whole time I was growing up, whether it be drawing, ceramics, like, always, yeah, there's a

deep appreciation for fine art. And, you know, we grew up every year or so. We'd go down to Detroit, to the Detroit Art Institute where there's a Diego, one of the only Diego, maybe the only Diego Rivera mural left in the United States. I just came back from Mexico City where there's billions and it's amazing. But it's one of the few that wasn't torn down because of the politics and that was like still it's like going to church like anytime I'm in the area I go there because it's a big I don't know just something that's a big part of my life so yes visual arts and of course you know I was glued in front of the TV just like every other kid and but movies you know going to a movie theater is transportive like you literally

lose track of time lose track of sense of place and you know if it's good which it isn't always but if it is it's like a vacation and or some kind of you know revelation and yeah I was starving for that and so that was sounds like it was that way for you as well yeah I mean I grew up in a town of 5,000 people kind of in the middle of northern California so you know we were we were in a Not a cultural desert necessarily, but we were looking for anything. And the closest movie theater was a half hour drive. Wow.

And that was like even just driving the half hour down, a literal straight road, like no curves at all, was more interesting than standing around in a vineyard, you know. Wow. So, yeah, it was the same thing. But I wanted to, you kind of touched on a few things there that I don't really plan questions necessarily for this podcast, but I have. like a few things I wanted to touch on. One of them being that you just kind of mentioned was, you know, television has become so good recently. And but that element of, of transportation and losing oneself in a story that a theater provides

is going away, it seems. There's less people going to movie theaters or movies are being released on streamers, you know, where they're like, hey, come, although one could argue right this exact moment, there's a lot of work to trying to get butts and seats in theaters, which I appreciate. But being someone who's directed so much great television, is there, I guess, go with the mental exercise for me. How do you kind of square those two things where you know that the theater is so good, but the streaming is, seems to be the sort of future? Well, I have to make a confession. Which is, I had never watched Veronica Mars.

Have you watched Veronica Mars? Thanks to my girlfriend, yes. I had never watched Veronica Mars, but I've worked with all those writers. I recently worked, did the finale of the new reboot of Party Down. And all the writers and producers, you know, I'd worked with a lot of them on various other shows, but I realized, like, looking at them all, they'd worked together for years. It's really like, you know, Robert Altman kind of like, this is our theater, this is our, you know, or the Mercury players. Like, they really work together whenever they can, the actors, the writers, whatever.

And so I was like, what was the origin of this? And I look back to Von Kamars, all of them. And of course, you know, I just thought, okay, let me see what this is all about. And I started watching it at the beginning of the summer. And I couldn't stop. It is so good. I had no idea. I literally watched the whole thing this summer.

And in a way, I felt that kind of feeling where I was so like what happens. If it's something is that good, like Veronica Mars, it's so good. Somebody had told me. Although I think I was a little older than the target audience at the time just by a little. But wow. I mean, Kristen Bell has got to be one of the, I mean, she's so talented. talented in every single way, but there's just this kind of knowing intelligence that that character has that is, you know, self-deprecating and humorous and everything that is compelling as a person. And so there's just that at least this summer, it hit this perfect note for me, and I watched it constantly.

Like I would watch three episodes in a row, maybe even more. So I had a similar feeling. Like I felt, oh, this is a great world. I'm feeling like I'm getting something back, which is a longing to see more, an investment in the characters. And in some ways, the fact that it goes on for a while when it's really good, maybe is the tradeoff

for being in that dark room. Like, I don't know, but I felt equally satisfied in a different way. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, I suppose I should narrow down because you're 100% right, because there are certain shows that I also have like a completionist problem. This is why I can't get on shows like Game of Thrones or whatever when they come out is because there's a few like Westworld I've been sticking with. But like I need to be able to knock it all out in one shot generally. This is where I prefer like a mini-series or something for my own taste, you know.

But question is, do you think being in a room with other people makes a difference? It's a different. Yeah, I do. It does. And what is the value of that? Well, I mean, I remember, gosh, I wish I could remember the name of this movie, but I remember going to this movie. It was with John Torturo.

It was when I was living in New York. and he was one of these brothers that were like shut-ins and antisocial. I could look it up, but I'm not going to. And whoever was sitting next to me, and I have no idea, because I did never look over, but I know it was a man. And when it was ending, he was just sobbing. And I reached into my purse and grabbed a tissue and just handed it to him without ever looking at him. But that kind of thing, like a stranger.

It's that thing about a stranger. Right? And I felt what he felt. But, you know, clearly the depth of it had something very personal to do with him. So it's the stranger factor. Like, I love watching stuff with my son Henry or my husband, Lee. And, you know, we get to share that experience. But, you know, then there we are. When we turn the TV off and we can talk about it and we kind of have expectations about what the other person's reactions are going to be or whatever. In a theater, you're all strangers experiencing something similar. And that is, when does that ever happen elsewhere? I don't know. Does it? Maybe a ride at an amusement park or a concert.

Or like a terrible event like 9-11, like something like that where we suddenly, I was living in New York then and we were suddenly like all one family in that city, right? Because we all experience something so, I mean, that takes it to another level. but yeah I mean maybe it's just the strangers of it all you know that's interesting it's a really interesting question because it's this for me it's the stranger thing which informs you emotionally about when you don't catch something because I find I I didn't I was much more an escapist viewer I didn't think too hard like we were saying so being around other people and especially discussing films afterwards I find incredibly valuable because I tend to miss

things. I just kind of go on the ride a lot of times. I'm trying to get better out now. No, I mean, that's the ultimate accomplishment of a filmmaker to have somebody have that experience. You know, maybe that's why people go to movies twice. Yeah. Well, it's funny, too, because I, recently in the past, like, five, six years as I started to work more professionally, I've been trying to become more critical in the academic sense of film. And unfortunately, that muscle has now started to activate in the middle of certain films. Like Jurassic World I just watched and like God bless everyone who worked on that film, but about halfway through, I was like, why?

Why are we doing this? Yeah, that sometimes happens. You know, I watch Grey Man and all I kept thinking is, they were cast wrong. They should have been the opposite. Like, but, you know, this is, I love the Russo Brothers. Like, what is it? soldier winter soldiers like one of the great film you know i know that this could be great but they're just miscast they should be the opposite so once in a while that him in anna da armas

no but uh the two leads the two male lead like i think that chris oh chris evans and um and and hoddy mcbody yeah that he should have been the bad i there was just something in my mind like that started seeing it with them with the other person's role and i thought oh this would be more six Chris Evans he's way more likable yeah it's hard for him to shake the likables yeah he's he's just there's nothing dastardly like innately dastardly about him it was good but it was like I just I watched it going they should be you know anyway so that occasionally happens but I I'm bummed when it happens so I I know you know I I just saw that what two days ago and about halfway through that, I didn't have the

critical brain click off, but I did start going like, oh, this is a superhero movie. I thought this was going to be a spy movie. This man is running on top of trains. Things are exploding. Right. They're so good at that, man. They're so good at that. I do love

Ryan Gosling in most things. But the same thing. He can't shake that weird sort of dry wit character, that drive person he is. It was less that I had, you know, he's great in the role. It was more like, and he's, but then the, then the, then the, then the bad guy should have been worse, you know, so he was great, but watching Chris Evan just sort of thinking, oh, that would be interesting. It was more.

He's too funny. Yeah, yeah. And he smiles a lot, you know. Like who, who shouts you douche when someone drops a grenade in front of you? Like, that's funny. Right. But yeah, yeah, they're both really good actors. get me wrong. They're great. It's just something that it got in my head. Sure. This actually

brings us to a good question, which is as someone who's directed, there's actually a few angles that we can take just off this idea, but you've directed a ton of stuff and most of it's great. And I only say most because I haven't seen all of it, obviously. Some of it's bad. But how do you tell, especially in the case where you just dropped into a situation, you know, what are the hallmarks of telling a good story? What are the hallmarks of a good story? What are the hallmarks of a good story because I saw a quote from you that said like as long as a story's told well like it works it engages you so how does one achieve that um well writing you know if the script is you start there right the words and the complexity and originality and all of that characters

and then you know pathos do you care you know and if you care about who you're meant to care about, then it will work, you know. And so sometimes you have to find vulnerability or find flaws that, you know, sometimes an actor doesn't want to play into that or whatever. And I, you know, being an editor, having been an editor, I come, I function from my heart because what I would do is sit and watch footage that someone else directed and just each take, just like wipe, you know, like men in black, wipe it. And then watch it again, did I feel more on this one than I did on the last one? Why?

You know, and, you know, you just watch all the takes waiting to feel the most. And so I do that on set. Like I have an abridged version of instantaneous response, which, and I'm just a viewer. You know, I mean, I know there's a huge mystery to what we do. really, I'm just somebody who loves to be a viewer, you know, and then have ideas and collaborate and all that. But that's the point that I think is so deceptively simple. If you can sit there like with an open heart and go, you know what? I know I'm supposed to feel bad, but I don't. How do we fix that? Or, you know, you're making this about yourself, but it's really about this person.

So you're coming off as really selfish or whatever it is that you are realizing why it's not working to be able to access and articulate that. And so you create pathos and you create an emotional connection. Like that's it. I think that even, you know, I'm trying to think of something so extreme, like whether maybe it's not a character thing, maybe it's a story idea. maybe like Dr. Strange love, the world's going to end, or whatever it is, like you're connected in some way. So, you know, I think it's so deceptively simple. I, you know, it's something that we've talked about a lot. Obviously, this is primarily a cinematography podcast, and I actually do have some questions in that regard for you. But something that all the cinematographers

and I have, or keeps coming back is when someone asks like, oh, how do I make this look good? You know, you could say, oh, three-point lighting or backlight the shit out of it or whatever. But nine times out of ten is, does this make you feel correct? Like when you see, it's simple when you figure it out, but to articulate it as you're saying is sometimes impossible. Because you're trying to basically tell people literally feel it out. Right. Don't stop thinking with critic brain. Start thinking with your, you know, your heart, as it were.

I've seen actors actually, I'm not going to name names, but I've seen an actor actually start a take be so like I'm going, oh my God, and then they feel self-conscious, they shut it down. And they even like cut on themselves. Like that's how scary that can be for some actors. And it's a shame because the people that I've seen do it are capable. They just are, I'm not sure what the fear. is, you know, control. Like, I understand that. I'm a control person,

although I've learned since being a parent that you have no control. You know, but you have to try to believe that you do to function, I know. But, but yeah, it's sometimes, it's, it's brave to allow yourself to do that. Some people don't know. Like, I cut a documentary million years ago

called The Last Party, which was. I saw that. Looking you up, I was like, Really, Robert Downey Jr. I really recommend it because there is an actor who, you know, he's become something that's, you know, he's a producer, he's a creator, he's, but he's always had this gift like that he was born with that was bigger than him. And his life has been learning how to wrangle, manage, and make that work for him. because what he had in an enormous, like beyond his, his, you know, capability of even understanding it since he was little,

most actors should have a little bit of that. He just happened to have, you know, he just is, you know, I really recommend. I just watched, I just watched Weird Science last night, and I hadn't seen it since, for what, 20 years. Yeah. And I was like, oh, it's Robert Downey. And sure enough, like every scene he's in, you're like, he's doing it. It's, what's one of his first movies?

And you're like, there, yep, yep. I think that, you know, his father was a filmmaker. He was in a free, I mean, albeit probably pretty chaotic. And it obviously was, you know, had created issues that he had to deal with. But watching him while I was editing that, he happened to be doing Chaplin just before. So when we were finishing, Chaplin came out. And that was like, who can do that? You know, and it's, and it's that only on steroids just because of what, who he is.

But it's the, you know, it's being able to at least crack open a little bit and see that. I think there are a lot. It's, I would imagine it would be terrifying. Like, I'm not in front of the camera. So, but I do my best to, you know, get what I feel will serve. And, you know, what the actor will be happy with in the end, because. You know, anyway, yeah. Well, because that explains it.

Sure. I mean, so it's tapping into that emotional center that everyone has, but often that, no one likes to be vulnerable. And, you know, in cinematography, I always say, like, there's, there's this fine line between, in photography as well, like, capturing the subject as they are and doing what was described to me, and I don't know who said it, but it stuck. say it like every day, do your buddy a favor. Sometimes, you know, like in a portrait scenario, I used to be, I used to shoot film, I still shoot film, but used to shoot film and not edit. And I would say, that's what you look like and I would get less gigs. Right.

I wonder why, you know, it's, you don't always have to be 100% truthful. So I can imagine with actors, there's somewhere between pure raw emotion and, you know, and picking the take that maybe is a little more favorable to them as a person and not an actor. Right. I mean, did you see it was just on, I think Showtime? Is it called First Wives or First Women? It was a show about Eleanor Roosevelt. It went between the time of Eleanor Roosevelt, Michelle Obama, and Betty Ford.

And it was the story about these first wives and kind of, It was amazing. I didn't know. There was so much about Betty Ford that I did not know. But I also know that Michelle Pfeiffer was playing Betty Ford, who is quite possibly the most beautiful woman that ever lived. Sure. I mean, I've always thought that. I look at her and I'm just like, oh, my God, just she's so beautiful. And she chose to play Betty Ford so honestly. And really, you know, I've never seen. a glamour, like, obviously she's brilliant, but this was a choice to do something that wasn't just about that in a major way. And I do feel like great actors or actresses at some point,

you know, realize probably that, you know, that opportunity to create something like that is is more important than preserving whatever superficial, whatever, you know, not speaking specifically of her, I think that in general. But I mean, I was blown away by her. Like, I'd never really seen a performance like that. And I was so happy that she chose to do that. You know, Jillian Armstrong plays Eleanor Roosevelt. And that, she's one of the bravest actresses out there.

because she just is striving to, you know, put these characters in the world and tell these stories without a concern about, I mean, I've not worked with her, so I don't know what it's like on set, but from my point of view, you know, no filter, you know, like your photographs. And that would be fine. In some ways, I would imagine she'd be somebody that would choose that, you know, or try to influence that because of her commitment to whatever the character is. So really, you know, I think at a certain age, probably if you're lucky enough to have a career that goes that long into your 40s or 50s or whatever, then the roles change. And, you know, you think you're getting fewer opportunities, but possibly you're getting more. Yeah. No, that makes total sense. And also, I think that's a probably a better way to look at it, too, is, oh, no, I'm not being hired for weird science. It's like, no, you just get to play more robust character. Like younger characters can tend to be a little flatter, not flatter, less dimension because they have less life, you know?

Right. I hate, I shouldn't say I hate. I'm starting to get annoyed with shows or movies where there's like a 15-year-old who's the smartest person in the world. I'm like, just show an adult. Like, we don't, this is giving me nothing. I've met 15-year-olds. I was a 15-year-old.

I was stupid. I'm not identifying with this child. You know what I'm watching now is yellow jackets. Oh, I've heard that's amazing. It's so good. And what's great about it is that it's like present day part of the story with these girls that were on a soccer team that were in a plane crash going to a game. And it's Lord of the Flies.

But then the survivors tell, you know, kind of going back and forth and what happened to their lives. And it's so brilliant. But those are 15-year-olds that you're like, okay, well, they had to figure it out, right? Sure. I'm more okay with that. Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, that's such a great show. Oh, my God.

Watch it. I wanted to ask, this is a little bit of a shift, but starting as an editor and working on documentary, how do you, this is a pure documentary question? Because I've been doing a lot more documentary work recently. how do you know when to pull the trigger on an edit when is this thing done when you know when is it like because you could just go right documentaries never end you run out of money yeah that's what yeah the check stop coming right render yeah you can't think of other people to interview um you apply to a film festival and the deadlines approaching because the truth is you're right like it's an endless it's you know it's an escher painting is everything okay yeah

I think the trash mates are we do at it sometimes it's a ghost I don't hear anything I think yeah it's oh you don't oh okay thank Christ the the man is emptying the apartment dumpsters apparently in my room so I don't hear it you might hear it when you play it back all right that's fine didn't want to step over what you were saying I think it can be any number of things, like practical things. I'm exhausted. I need to make some money. I, you know, I can't bear to be living in this story anymore.

The funding's, you know, whatever it is. But also, I think it's, you know, I think there is a certain, like, okay, I think we've got this story. I think, you know, some event happens that feels like an ending. like in Roger and Me Christmas, right, that the contradiction or the back and forth between all those evictions and Roger Smith, you know, wishing all of his employees, Merry Christmas. So it's like building, you're like, you know, it's a narrative build. It does fit within the guidelines of a narrative storytelling. It's just there's, the narrative is up to the editor in a lot of ways. But yeah, it's, it could just go on and on and on.

And it does a lot. Like I've watched, I've talked to people that are like, I'm looking to edit this footage that I have. Like, okay, cool. I shot it in 1970 or whatever. Or like Summer of Soul, that great documentary, Questlove. Questlove. That footage has been around forever. I love Questlove.

So, yeah, you know, he, thank God, somebody said something to him or he stumbled across it. And that was the moment. through his perspective and with his ultimate cool you know coolness and knowing that this story was incredible and important and so yeah also like he's the in my opinion the music historian I can't point to anyone else who has such a deep deep encyclopedic knowledge of music overall not just soul not just blues not just hip hop like that Batman knows everything. Wow.

Yeah. That's super cool. I mean, what's John Batiste? John Batiste is another one who's musically very... Unbelievable. Somebody, I don't know if it was somebody I know or something I heard on the radio. I can't remember. But somebody was talking about being his roommate at Juilliard, I believe, and how he was just

this like savant musician that would be like, oh yeah, I'd be playing like a mouth harp, or he'd be doing this, or he'd be obsessing about this obscure instrument or whatever. I mean, talk about somebody touched with genius, you know, John Bitt. He's amazing. So, you know, we're lucky when we're living in the same time with certain people that, you know, expand the description of things, Questlove being one of them. did you would you think would you think do you uh i would try to direct i'll try to think thank you appreciate it um do uh do you think that a director is more like a

a actor musician or more like an editor or what's the what's the percentage breakdown because all of those need that emotional center yeah an actor is in it and an editor needs to be kind of an asshole and go, nope, don't need that. That part where you cried, actually, that whole scene's gone. We don't need that. I'm never that heartless. Like, I'm a sucker. You'll put it in.

If somebody cries, it's the producer that's ripping that scene out of my cold dead hands. It's a really fine run. It's like when a stunt person breaks their back. You're like, okay, I'll put that in. Well, I did this pilot, which I'm so sad, nobody will ever see. It was one of the best experiences of my life. It was about kids in rodeo, and we shot it in New Zealand, and it was amazing. It was like all these young actors that are now, like, blowing up.

But it, we had the Maori rodeo, like the highest ranking buck, you know, a bronching buck rider and all that as our consultants. And the pivotal scene was this character getting thrown on. off a bull. And I, you know, I was working with my team trying to figure out like, oh, God, how do we do this? Like, how do we break it down? What kind of artificial portion of a bull do we need? And so we broke it down, storyboarded. Those are the kinds of things I storyboard. Otherwise, I'm like, but that kind of thing you do. And the guy who was the stunt writer, who was the number one bull rider in New Zealand took a fall while we were rolling.

Like he decided that he was going to try to do this stunt for real. And he got stomped by the bull. Like it was so terrifying. Fortunately, he got up eventually and he was fine. But, you know, there are those, that's the closest I've come to what you're saying. Like, they break their back, they, whatever. That clip's going in.

It was, it was like, I did not ask him to do that. I would never do that. I'm a safety person. I, but, you know, he was the most knowledgeable about it. And I guess thought he could do it without communicating that necessarily. And just was like, and it was brilliant. So I'm in between. I'm like, I think because I was an editor,

I have this, like, skill set that allows me to really kind of go, I would never use that. Like, my heart breaks when I'm working with a great cinematographer and they pitch something that I know is going to be really cool, but it just isn't about the story. Like, it's about the, and I think there's a time and place for all of that. Like, I'm always trying to, like, have some, a few gorgeous moments because it's photography. like it's but you know so it's so the editor goes okay i've so limited time i need to do this i don't think i'll have time to have that in the cut and so you're always that's a difficult situation because i never want to like diminish anyone's creative enthusiasm or generosity in that way but i'm back and forth kind of going i don't think i'll use that or and mostly i have to give the time

the actors for this. This is too important to worry about a 360 camera move that says, our operator's really good, you know, or whatever. So it's constantly, it's a constant thing, you know, which involves knowing what I think I want, taking advantage of every talented and amazing person who cares enough to, you know, kind of put their idea up. there and then making room for an actor who you know you hope and usually has spent time thinking about something comes with an idea and sometimes it's not what you've thought of so you have to have time to kind of reconcile your both your things or or just actually they're the ones that are the most vulnerable pulling themselves out there so just creating space so that the environment

feels safe and inspiring to them so there's a lot going on And so I feel like I'm kind of doing all that at once and thinking about the cut in a way that I do just because I'm an editor. I was an editor, right? Yeah. Was that an answer? Yes, absolutely. Okay, good. Oh, trust me, I personally on this podcast, people are not tuning in to listen to me and I've gone on ridiculous rant.

So everyone else is safe. Are you saying that was a ridiculous rant? No, I'm saying, don't worry about. I'm totally kidding, totally kidding. but you do you do bring up a good segue for cinematography questions which was a storyboarding but b you know you've been dropped in on a lot of shows for one five however many you know a limited number of episodes a well i won't ask that first because that's a completely different question uh new a how are you working with dPs in such a way that keeps you you know

like efficient and um you know and and communicate how do you develop that shorthand with a DP that you've never worked with? Or do you end up working with DPs a lot that are jumping to shows like that? I've had a good fortune of working with a lot of DPs multiple times. And, you know, sometimes a D.P. will either make me not want to work on a show because I don't think their work is good or I know that they have, you know, trouble working with women or whatever. And then other times it's like, oh, I love working with this person, like this person. Or I love this person's work. I cannot wait to.

I think it's my responsibility. And this is interesting. I'm thinking of Pete Chapman's interview right now. It's my responsibility to, if the show's been around. I tend to not want to work on something that's more than a year old, with the exception of for all mankind, which I did season three, because it's so incredible. And, you know, I would have done season eight because that show is so incredible.

But after like a season two, the language is so dialed in that most shows aren't interested in deviating that much, which is great and fine for them. But that makes for a less interesting experience sometimes, unless you know, you're specifically going there to work because it's a genre that you want to do and you don't have that on your resume or whatever. But I think if you're going into a season two or later in a season one, it's really, I enjoy watching everything that's been shot up until that. Then I can really understand the cinematographer's work. Also, producers hire cinematographers, and they have a sense of ownership of a show, of a series. And in a lot of times, you know, it's, it can either be somebody that you're like, thank you for you know for suggesting that that's way more in the language of the show or um or them

thank you for pushing us to do that because that was really cool so it can go either way but i think if you watch the show and it's early enough you can kind of you know take what you see and you know kind of synthesize it into your creative process for this show and then really study the sets and the locations and pitch stuff, you know, and find, you know, alternating DPs on a show is great because then you get to prep with a D.P. And that's fabulous. Right. Because there's room because one of them is working on something you have time. Exactly. So that's great because you're like having this ongoing creative communication. Like I'm made for love. I got to prep with Nate Goodman, who I think is a great DP, and a great guy, and he's a director, too, and I love

that guy. So we got to do some prepping together on several days, and he's so, like, enthusiastic and fun and, like, very useful in his creative process. And so it's really, you know, it's really stimulating and fun to be around someone like that who loves what they do still. And so, yeah, when you get to prep with someone like that, that's the best. the gift, right? And like, maybe you've been to the location three times and the fourth time they get to come with you. And they're seeing it with fresh eyes. You're pitching to them what you're thinking. And either it's like, well, of course, like, duh, it's a giant mound of sand, like, whatever. Or, oh, cool, let's do that. Or, you know, they'll say, how about if we

bring in a giant crane and do, you know, so it's this great experience. When you're prepping and you don't have a DP, a version of that happens. You know, a version of that happens, but it is, it can go wrong. Like, you can, you get, I mean, how many hours of that person's day do they owe that show? So they're shooting all day. Maybe, you know, if they're generous, they'll let you come in and talk to them during lunch and stay after a little bit. But, I mean, honestly, you know, they have lives. They're working really long days.

So it's hard to, like, get that. kind of time, understandably so. But you're with the production designer and, you know, there are other crew members, you know, grips and electric that you can talk to about equipment, see what the budget is, what you can do. And then kind of have an informed conversation. Like our show, we only get a crane two days out of the nine days that we're shooting. Okay, I'm thinking we should use the crane these days and explain stuff. And then, you know, it's it's just more work explaining and it's not quite as much fun but it's fun you know both such they work it's just that's the process in either situation so in your mind does a good

DP is a good DP more uh is it more important for a good DP to be that person that's fun to work with and collaborative and expressive like that or I already know the answer to this but how I'll rephrase it how far does technical knowledge get ADP and knowing how to get a shot together and knowing what it's everything really oh yeah it's everything um if you if you're trying to do something and they're not sure how to do it it's really frustrating right I remember trying to get a camera under the door of a toilet while somebody sitting there and then pulling it through and coming up and I kept being told, no, I can't do that. And I'm like, come on. Like, there's got to be a way. And eventually we did, you know, but television schedules are

difficult. So how much time, you know, it's like you're relying on this person to do the research and what if they don't know how to, you know, so it's really not, the DP is usually relying on other people to solve problems, equipment problems, you know, they throw it out there, please bring me back answers or, you know. But yeah, I mean, I've worked with DPs that don't even set up shots. I've worked at the DPs that light and then sit at the monitor and you're with the operator telling them what you want. Interesting. I mean, that's old school, right? That's, that's, and there are a couple of DPs that I've worked with that are like that. And in a way, it forces you, into a different kind of experience, which can have its advantages.

I mean, you certainly don't want to be pushing a DP that doesn't want to set up a shot into setting up a shot. Like, maybe, you know, the lighting was beautiful. Thank you. Now I'm going to work with this person. That person, I mean, that DP was so, I mean, those shows were beautiful, but couldn't care less about a shot. It's really interesting. That was surprising.

By that, you mean specifically they're not taking the camera and figuring out the composition. They're letting their operator go figure that out. More or less. Well, they're having me work with the operator to. Oh, they're going to sandwich. Well, I mean, usually that's not their thing. And so I'm like, this is where I wanted to start. This is what I want to do.

Or, you know, and collaborating with the operators rather than the D.P. that's rare but it does happen and and it's fine like that you know the person that I'm thinking of works a lot but setting up a shot doesn't do it for them lighting does yeah well that's yeah those people tend to have really great operators and so you get really cool like you can work with somebody who is empowered you know an operator that's empowered to be such a significant department head yeah well and also So in some ways, like I've operated in First Day Seed a handful of times, and I can say both of those jobs, I almost like more than being a DP because there's just a little less work to do and you get to focus on one specific thing and it's less stressful. And you're right in the mix.

Like you're, you know, you're not sitting. I think you're involved emotionally in a different way too. But, yeah, you know, nothing's ever the same. everyone's different and as a guest director you are always part of your energy goes into understanding what the dynamic is on set who who's got some issues that are going to you know all that stuff you know who is

who is like the beating heart of this place like whatever you know how How much do the actors enjoy what they're doing? How, how, you know, how on top of things are the writers in terms of getting you material so that you have a decent prep? I mean, it differs, it varies from show to show to show. And so each show has its own set of, you know, things that you deal with. And it keeps you, I mean, it's really stimulating and fun, usually. usually so are you I'm going to reformulate that question too do you have any leadership advice

because it sounds like especially as a as a guest director you're not running in taking charge saying this is my episode it's more like a I don't know if lead from the back is the right word but no it is your episode you're responsible if it doesn't work you'll you won't work there again so you are responsible it's your episode But it's like, how do you connect quickly? It's like speed dating. Like not, and I've never done speed dating. So I'm assuming it's, I'm using it like, feels like I know,

where you have to like, you know, during prep, go meet this person, that person, you know, and spend time a little bit getting to know what your set is going to be like. You know, your AD, you immediately know, oh, my AD wants to direct. So, you know, they've got an agenda on top of helping me. They're trying to oppress the producers, or this person is on, you know, 100% DGA, got my back, you know, whatever. So there's so many elements that you have to figure out, but it is ultimately your responsibility. Therefore, if somebody doesn't like you at the end of it, price to pay, the episode's good, that's your price that you paid.

And at the end of the day, if the episode is good, that's all that matter. because that's what you were hired to do. But it's 100% your responsibility, nobody else. You can't at the end of the day go, if this person had done this for me, it would have been, it's no good because, like, seriously, like who? I can't even imagine those words coming out of any respectable person's mouth. Like, it's your responsibility, 150%.

So it's definitely a matter of managing the people and being trying to work with them, but if they're not working for you, shutting it down and figuring out the solution. Yeah, figuring work around. I often say, I got my break as a director when I was seven and a half months pregnant with my son. So my career really started after I became a mother. And it made me way more compassionate. and way more understanding of bad behavior, whatever, like not to take shit personally. I mean, I'm sure there are people that, you know, walked away going,

eh, I didn't like whatever about me, which, you know, I probably felt the same way. But it doesn't, I don't feel that way. I mean, I can't really tell you when I felt that way. But what I do. You leave it on the field. What? You leave it on the field, man. Yes.

But, yeah, it's really not taking anything personally. personally, knowing that people are coming to work that, like, we're working during a pandemic. Like, what the fuck? Like, that's really the penultimate kind of thing. Like, people are coming to work thinking they might pick up something, then take it home to their family and, like, whatever. But, you know, it's, you go and you realize everybody's coming to this soundstage or this location with their life and whatever. is going on in their life and whatever is happening. And so if there's some bad behavior or if and there's not bad behavior, you know, that person's happier than that person. Okay, but whatever this

person that's a little bit unhappy has to do, I'll find a way to connect with them and figure out what I can do to help them do their job because I need them and I want them. They're here. Maybe they don't feel appreciated, you know, maybe the, maybe somebody that's higher than them shits on them, you know, I don't know, I'm new. I got to figure it all out. Yeah. It's not easy. There's a lot of energy that goes into that. I wish it, I didn't have to spend so much energy figuring that stuff out sometimes, but it ultimately behooves me to know all of that. So is that sort of, uh, would you say that that's kind of the key to your longevity in the industry, like being able to have kind of started with that emotional intelligence on top of your proficiency? Or what would you point to

to being able to constantly drop into these sets and be the person that gets hired on the next gig and the next gig? I do think that being kind and having a parent kind of a, that parental vibe of like, I'm going to take care of all of you. I want this to be a good experience. I value, you know, clearly you're here for a reason, so I want to find out what it is. And I value you because you're here. And I know your work, you're incredible.

Or we've worked together before. We had so much fun. And then just try to, again, make for a really good set and take care of everyone. And, you know, while you're doing that, what you want done like you know meet your agenda so yeah i definitely feel like i'm a nicer more understanding person as a after i became a mother i was always nice but i would be like oh fuck you you baby shut up right i could never say that

on a set i might think it but i'm not going to say it i'll be like you know i'll figure out how to work around it's a you know it's that it's the computer a the workaround. We just figure a workaround. Yeah. You know, I was, I was looking at your IMDB, and like I said, it's long. But there was one show that I wanted to ask if you had any memories on or anything like that, and that was dollhouse. Oh, my gosh. Because I liked that show. I had wanted to do something in that vein, and I asked about the show.

And I didn't think there was going to be any way in how, like, my resume would have gotten me in the door. But, you know, it did. I think maybe if the show had been, like, a huge hit, that wouldn't have been the case. But it had, like, a small following and all that. And I remember going into Joss Whedon's office and meeting him. And I was, like, totally starstruck. Like, you know, it was Joss Whedon. And he was so kind, like, is there anything, if there's anything you need, if there's anything I can do, you know.

It was great. And then Lisa Wegan was a DP. And she is this badass girl from Detroit. So, of course, I'm from Flint. So immediately, number one, it's this incredibly funny, like, funny, smart, daring DP. So it was a great experience. Like, it was super fun. Lisa has gone on to do so much good work.

And I really have fond memories of that. I have very, very fond memories of doing that. Because it was out of my, you know, comfort zone. And it was fun. And it led to other things. Like it definitely led to, it was a calling card for, you know, the Marvel and D.C. stuff. Right. Which was great.

And I learned so much doing that. And, you know, it's like all of that was. done so that my son would think that I was cool, who was growing up as a young, young kid and teenager. So mission accomplished. But I, well, actually, I don't know if you think I'm cool, but it was, you know, I'm hoping that looking back on it, he'll be like, my mom did that. But yeah, it was a great experience. It was like getting, dipping my toe and sci-fi and action stuff. And it was so much fun. Because, yeah, because that was actually going to be kind of my follow-up question because starting with like sex in the city and gray's anatomy and stuff

and then ending in this sort of not ending uh you know got something i don't know yeah gotham and arrow and and uh all and and um made for love and stuff which is sci-fi adjacent well not even adjacent but uh is it always when working with genre and stuff is it always the same gig or do you have to activate a different part of your brain it's always different versus it's always different Yeah, it is. I mean, there's always a different kind of look. I think once you're on a show, sometimes, you know, it becomes easier doing multiple episodes, obviously. But, you know, made for love couldn't be further from like a Gotham or, you know, a Marvel or DC show. But, you know, there were skills that I learned on those shows that I had so much fun kind of leaning into for this crazy character-driven sci-fi thing, which was so much fun.

I'm so sad that that show didn't get a pick up. It is such a travest. No, no, no. Oh, Made for Love. Such a travesty. Those women, Christine and Alyssa, were so talented as writers, just visionary. And, you know, Ray Romano and Kristen Miliotti, like, when do you ever get, and, you know, Billy Magnuson, when do you ever get a cast like that together on TV? I am shocked that it's not coming back for a third season.

It was so cool. I don't think it got enough advertising. Yeah. Well, now you're here on this podcast, but. I know. But yeah, like, I didn't see a lot of, you know, even living in L.A., the billboards, you know, tend to show you a lot of stuff. I know. People, like, there are some serious fans of that show.

And, yeah, just another one of those that if it had been given another season, you know, I think that it would have, you know, continue to build an audience. and so sad. But anyway, even, you know, so the best thing about, I mean, one of the best things about action is that the budgets are big, the toys are big. You can learn so much and you can like, so your, you're, whatever, your weapons, like become and your knowledge about equipment just is so great

because you're allowed to spend all that time and money and achieving whatever it is. with great tools and great gizmos and stuff. And then occasionally, you'll have like a Made for Love where, you know, did they use? They didn't use, they didn't shoot any aerial until my episode, I don't think. But, you know, I had this scene where they arrived. They're driving down the middle of nowhere. And, you know, so I used a drone.

And it was beautiful. And so you get to be like, hey, let's use a drone here. I don't know. They must have used a drone. But I guess it was not very common. Oh, they're not flying helicopters anymore. Yeah. But any kind of drone aerial at all.

Oh, they must have on previous episodes. Gotcha, gotcha, got you. Yeah, I'm not sure that they did. But, you know, so you get to, like, bring in some of the toys sometimes, you know, in places that you wouldn't normally. And in my mind, visually elevate stuff. So, yeah, what do I, it's interesting because, like, I do love the genre. genre stuff. It's really, really fun. But, you know, it's like, what am I want? I can't wait for the Julia Child show to come back,

like the next season. So it's like, I'm interested in all that stuff. Like anything that's just great, like Parks and Rec, like that has nothing to do with what I, but the writers and the talent. So it's like I watch, sometimes I'll watch some genre stuff, Like I'm watching Yellow Jackets and I'm watching Dr. Death, which is really good. But, you know, I tend to like, you know, Julia Childs and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, so you touched on it a little bit like having learned a lot of stuff from those kinds of shows. But especially like having to having to deal with, I shouldn't say it like that. But, you know, dealing with companies like Marvel or DC who from an outsider's perspective seem to have kind of a lot of fingers in.

the pie of whatever's whatever project, you know, they're producing. What are some of those lessons that you've learned and maybe some stuff that people could take away and apply to their own work? Okay. Know what it is that you're doing. Like if you're doing an agents of shield or if you're doing like really know this material, like understand it. I have to say one of the, You know, and be a team player in the sense that, you know, sometimes these shows have, like, really successful ways that they do things and have DPs, again, like you're saying, that have been on for the long haul and have a lot to offer you.

Because I do think that there's a lot of opportunities. Like Greg Berlanti, I mentioned this the other day. You know, Greg Berlanti hired me on Arrow first season, and he immediately was looking to hire more women, more people of color, like that was a mandate that he put on himself because that was important to him. And so as a result, you know, there are people that are like his editor or his DP that have not, so he's providing opportunity for people that don't have a lot of experience. And therefore, you know, the community has to support somebody that has less experience

and pull out of them whatever Greg saw. And Greg is right, like a lot of amazing direction. have come through that. And, you know, he's somebody that I really admire. Let's see. I'm always surprised, especially, like, on agents of shield, that my expectations aren't what you would think. Like, yes, there's, like, Jeff Johns

and all those, like, visionary higher-up executives that are, you know, kind of have created this explosion. but so many of the Marvel execs that were on the set with me or prepping another episode were women that were a lot younger than I was. You know, young, smart, nerdy women. I almost said girls because to me they were, they were so young. So I was really surprised at how female the environment was at Marvel. Like I was so impressed with how it challenged.

what my expectations were to who would be, you know, kind of repping Marvel on the set of the show. So, you know, just the advice, do your homework, have a ton of energy, don't think about anything else, immerse yourself in it, and enjoy it. I mean, it's these, those kinds of situations are incredible film schools, you know? Sure.

They really are. And, you know, just. You know, like Stephen Amel, like he, he was pretty new to acting at the beginning of Arrow. But I couldn't admire anybody more, really, for working so. He was great in that performance. He was so good. He cared so much about what he did. He cared so much about that show.

And Heels is the same way. So if you're lucky enough to have a number one who is that professional, that setting the bar that high for themselves, then you'll be inspired yeah um man it sucks i want to keep talking to you but i've already kept you we'll have to have you back this happens every there are there i mean i've loved pretty much every single conversation i've had on this podcast but some of them certainly do like i look down at the clock and i'm like how has it been 50 minutes we just started like um no it was really fun for me too. The back and forth, I can tell how much you love what you do. And, you know, it's, you create a really nice environment. So this is really fun. I appreciate that.

That means a lot. I tend to end the podcast with the same two questions, but they don't really apply here. So I'll try to come up. Normally, the first one is if you were to, if you were to put your movie in a double feature, what would the other movie be? But I don't know how we'd put it on. Aaron Brockovich. with Aaron Brockovich Whatever I do I want it to be as good and to be as political

and as smart and like world changing as anything Stephen Soderberg does sure he's got good liquor too side note the Singani 63 he makes a good liquor

it's a long story but the second question would be if there is a piece of advice or something you've read or maybe a book even that has stuck with you over the years that you would recommend or can recount. Can I give, can I tell you about advice that someone gave me? Yes, absolutely. Okay. So the last, it was a second to last season on Sex and the City. I'd been told I could direct, but it was a short season because two of the cast members got

pregnant and so it didn't happen and I was kind of holding off getting pregnant because of that and so I was just like oh shit I can't hold off any longer I'm like not a spring chicken and what about if I'm pregnant the next season would they allow me to direct and I know that that's like illegal not to but you know it's like and John Malthy who is a producer and just a partner to creative people like none other. He and Michael Patrick King were incredible creative partners. I remember going to him and going, like,

I don't know, like, I know that I'm really direct in the season, but I'm like getting to be this certain age, and I, and he just turned, he just stopped me. And he said, move forward on all fronts. Best advice anyone ever gave me. You have no control. Go for everything you want.

Part of it will happen. And congratulations. for the part that happens, right? So that was the best advice anyone's ever given me. And I've told so many women that in particular, because, you know, we're trying to juggle so much, especially if you want to be a parent. So, yeah, John Malfi gave me the best advice anybody ever gave me,

which was move forward on all fronts. You know, that's so great because I think, especially in this industry, anyone, might have the inclination to give up on their personal lives or give up on a, you know, a hobby that they love or something that brings them joy or a relationship. A lot of relationships die in this industry. And then they don't succeed or they don't hit the success that they want, let's say. And that puts you in a miserable bucket because now you have nothing. The way that my therapist told me was if you're sitting, imagine you are sitting on a stool.

at each leg of the stool you got relationships your work um the other two feet and uh if any part of your life of hobbies you know friendships and if any of those legs on the stool are short you topple you need to make sure they're all equally great that's a great metaphor yeah exactly i only learn in metaphors thank god for that woman uh metaphor legs yeah that's great like i'm gonna use one so again thank you so much for spending the time. That was a ton of fun. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I feel like we're friends now. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production.

It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Videocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.