Frame & Reference Podcast - 68: "Moon Knight" DP Gregory Middleton ASC, CSC

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with "Moon Knight" cinematographer Gregory Middleton ASC, CSC. You likely know Gregory from his work on "Game of Thrones", "Watchmen" and "The Killing." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMilland, and we have, what an episode for you this week. We have what an episode? Anyway, we're speaking with Gregory Middleton, ASC, CSE. to talk about almost everything, but more specifically, his work on Moon Night. He also shot, he's nominated for an Emmy for Moon Night. He also shot Game of Thrones. Hello.

He shot the Watchman television series, which was excellent. He also shot two really great sci-fi shows from back in the day, Continuum and Fringe. You know, a couple episodes each or one season of Continuum. something like that. We talk about it. Like I said, this one goes long. I almost got it into two episodes, but I did some trimming when we went way off topic, and it's a two and a half, you know, you know how to pause things. If you need a break, hit pause. That's what these are for. But yeah, it definitely worth the time. Super educational, super interesting. you know, Greg is not only generous with his time and his knowledge, but also his

expertise. It's awesome, all right? We had a great time. You're going to have a great time. You're going to love this one. So I'm going to let you get to loving it. Here's my conversation with Greg Middleton, ASC-C-S-C. The way that I normally start the podcast is by asking how you got creatively going, but I understand you, you were kind of always, you were dialed into film like right at the beginning, like as a kid. Yeah, pretty much I was like there's, uh, yeah, I just really, like I said, I was quite young was like 10, I think what Star Wars came out. And that was the first kind of like,

in the theater experience just made me like, just, you know, blew me away. And it became, it became like the window to like, well, how is this done this? Like, how are all these weird visuals like created and stuff? Nevermind the story. And, uh, and I was already playing with the family separate camera as a kid. Then I've, A couple of friends when I grew up with, we started with like Lego models doing some like stop motion and stuff. And that became a, we're doing little film tricks, we're doing in camera edits, right? With the Superhead camera, there's no editing. Like we run up to the wall and then cut and then, you know, keep going and roll again at that moment.

It looked like you disappear in the wall. Things like little things like that. So that was always an experimental stuff when I was young. So then it became, I mean, I told this start before much, but the in high school doing the same kind of thing with some other. friends and then your high school guidance counselors like so what do you want to do like when you want to go to college what's going to like where you want to study and you know i was at that point like well i want to keep doing this it seems like i won't never want to stop playing with cameras and stop making films and you know it's a lot of jokes about high school guidance counselors

being kind of useless and out of touch and everything and all that but i got to say he gave he gave great fights which is well as this you have two choices you're probably going to keep doing this in some way because you clearly love it you're started movie club in school all this kind of stuff. So you just want to decide if you want to try to make it a career or it's going to be a hobby you do, you know, on your, on your weekends. Like that's, you're going to obviously keep doing it. And of course, as a young ambitious kid, you're like, well, it's got to be a career, right? Cut to, you know, being in the suburbs of Montreal, there's nobody I knew in film. There's nobody, nobody in West Don of Montreal, no one I grew up. And then the parents are like, like, what the film industry? Like, what is that? Like, it's totally foreign. There's no shoots. It's like, there's nothing like, there's nothing like, to our parents' credit, they were like, okay, you know what? You're clearly highly motivated. And the one thing that they knew was like being highly motivated and really enjoying something is a good, is a good quality to have for something we want to pursue. So they, you know, they sort of all collectively let us, you know, pursue that. And that's kind of when that started. And then went to university and try to take film, film classes and

it went from there. So yeah, it's, it's interesting because out of the, whatever it is, 70 some odd DPs I've interviewed, most of them didn't like were interested in film, but didn't just immediately as a kid go, I'm going career. You know, a lot of them were like architects and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Photographers and whatnot. So, um, because I was kind of the same way. I, I, I went straight for like, like immediately.

It was like, uh, I'll figure that out film. But yeah, they always think you're like, they always say you're lucky. It's like, well, I didn't know anything about it. I just knew I wanted to try and go into it. It's not like had some great expertise when you're 15 years old. Like, oh, yeah, I can imagine myself being a cinematographer. Like, I don't do you know what the job, a job is at that point. And I would, I didn't, you know, I wasn't a natural photographer.

It wasn't playing with like a still camera lot or taking, it wasn't a photography interest so much. It's just like filmmaking in general. And then in university, you know, everyone has you got to parcel out the roles on a film. And I was just, I was a cinematographer and a few other students' films. I seem to have some aptitude for being on the camera, but no like real, you know, deep photography interest necessarily. But I like the collaborative nature of that role and being like, because you're kind of like right next to the person that, you know, when you're directing and writing, say, well, where to put the camera, how to create this effect and how do we want to. I like that sort of being in that sort of the crucible of that. And it seemed like, okay, well, maybe you'll try and make that like, you know,

the sort of career, I think, or that was the beginning of it anyway. It is funny because I, again, same, exact same with me. But it's, it's a, now that I think about it, it's almost like a tolerance for stress. Like director tons of stress, right? You're dealing with everything. Cinematographer, still very stressful, but narrowed, right? First AC, pretty stressful. but you get to not think about stuff for a minute, you know, camera operator,

stressful, but not all the time. You kind of, you can do this for a little bit, you know. Yeah, there's a, I remember when I was making my, um, the first, the first feature film that shot was called Kist, which was basically made with the, the school's equipment, like a couple years after I'd graduated by a master's student named Lynn Stockwich, who's still a close friend of mine and a brilliant filmmaker. And, you know, it was like a 20, two day shoots, like an all student crew were shooting 16, but I mean, at that point, I remember she came to me, we were shooting this,

tiny bathroom, right? And so, you know, when we're not filming and I'm either operating or being close to the camera when we're doing a take, then we should decide on the next setup, then I'm in there lighting the next scene. And she just came to be like, why you like never get a break? It's like, because when her setting up, she can go deal with some costume stuff or think about the next scene. And I'm like, it's like, yeah, it's like, if I'm not watching every take, then it's like, okay, what's the next set up? I have to like that one. It's a bit of an all go go thing. But there's a fluid nature of that because you're kind of always, because you're always kind of creating and solving problems. It's less, it's less time. Like, stress when you're

kind of static is kind of worse, right? Like, just sitting there worrying. It's like, that's a way different thing than like, okay, I got 20 minutes. We're behind schedule. I got to do this bathroom. Like, how did I get this shot? And it's in your, you know, you have control of what you're trying to do and you're trying to do things quickly. But it's a, it's an active stress, which I think is pretty good as we learn more about, you know, even the medical profession, none knows so much more about stress in terms of how like cortisol levels and being static, like, you know, people that sit in an office that are super stressed out like have way higher instances of heart disease than people that are you know if you're stressed running around doing things it's way

different it's more it's a more natural um i believe they call you stress yeah it's like you're because if you're doing it physically it's like we're in the tribe and we're in the old pre-human days right we'd be running around you know uh hunting in a pack right in a big group of us then we'd be very stressful but we're also in a very optimistic mood because there's the whole nature of us being kind of like, you know, hunting game, that kind of thing is a very cooperative thing. There's a stress involved, but it's not the same sitting there worrying, not having a control of what you're doing. And I think there's a thing about the cinematographer stress where it's, you're still barely, it's in the mode. It's quite, it's quite active. So I think that's

helps manage that a bit more, I think, at least for me anyway. Yeah. I mean that, that obviously the teamwork is specifically, uh, important to or I suppose both important to the experience, but also something that people look for. But the problem solving, the active problem solving is something that can become quite addictive for a type of personality that thrives in this industry. Completely. You can see people that like this can't. I mean, you know, the more I worked, once my professional career started and I started working on bigger and bigger productions, you start to realize the types of people that, you know, end up in those shows and end up in those jobs. And there's a big common knowledge that love for the problem solving, love for

the sort of team making or being in a team. And they all have to have a little bit of a, like the joke we used to make. It's like, it's like, oh, you ran away and joined the carnie. It's like, yeah, that's it. You're done your toast now. You spend the whole life now with the carnival running around like a total, like a weird, you know, person who's like left everything behind because it's a bit like that now. And a lot of them that are brilliant.

They're like that. Even the producers. I mean, some of the best, like, most incredible problem solvers I know are like amazing line producers and and production producers that are really clever about, you know, figure out the priorities or figuring out like who needs what and what like what the result will be like this is the kind of thing that's going to help this person excel and which will help the show and there's a whole layers and layers of that is really fascinating and the ones that really care and are really like sitting there quite a good you know then they come to like Greg let me ask you about something and they're thinking about this you know because they've been watching carefully like how I work or how we're solving a problem and that's brilliant that's like man that makes the whole you know that can make the whole experience like really enriching and really fantastic. I learned tons from those people as well. Yeah. The thing that it took me a while to not get bent out of shape, so to speak, or overly stressed about things going wrong

or options being taken from you. And I think it was Adam Savage kind of turned my head on that, which was like, whenever an option is taken from you, that just prunes one of the branches off the decision tree. That makes your job easier. When you're left with like two choices. Now you just get to go, all right, well, then let's just make the best one. Like, stop stressing about what you could have been doing, you know? Yeah. And learning that little lesson. Oh, goodness. It's like, I just want you know, by the way, can you have all the options in the universe and go? It'd be like it. The worst. The worst. Like, okay. The, yeah, those constraints are something that's where some of the magic happens, right? I mean,

there was, I mean, one of my famous cinematographer, favorite cinematographers when I was, growing up when I mentioned meet him once it was Conrad Hall, right? And he used to talk about the happy accident, right? Because, you know, because lighting can be looked at as a plan. Like you're executing a plan. You're designing it all on paper. You're just building it. But it's also, it's really a process.

It's like throwing paint at the camera. It's like, oh, wait a second. I didn't think about that. Like, let's turn that one off now and building as you go, right? Suddenly you're, if the composition may be very different than you imagine, you're like, you know, maybe it's better if I just leave this area in dark and I miss. Or you're realizing, like in a scene, for example, like one of the big things that'll happen that notice is, you know, is if I have an idea of like what the contrast wants to be,

I have to mean, I have to remember like, well, what's how if my director want to want to shoot this or what, or the shot size is going to be? Like, is this a scene we're going to get into close up? Because then if I need a certain layer of contrast or color, I need to have it in here, not just in the wide shot, which may only be in the scene for 30 seconds or five seconds or four seconds or 24 frames if it's on certain types of shows. So then you're like, think about the idea of, okay, well, then here's the idea, you know, here's some ideas I want to with this color or this amount of contrast. And then I got to think about, well, where is it going to go? And then it's like, you know, where I placed a person? And then there's a lot of that stuff that's a process that I wouldn't have known that until I'm in there, you know, doing the scene with the director and like, you know what?

Actually, this might whole play in the close up. I watched the block. And I'm like, even though we're going to shoot other things, you know, my instinct might be telling me I'd be watching them. It was something I'm doing a long time ago with on Game of Thrones with Jeremy Peders. It was one of directors that worked with quite a bit. And he's a brilliant guy. There's a scene with Amelia Clark, and she was Barrison Selmy's funeral, and, you know, there's a, you know, it's sort of, there's a dynamic the scene where she's got, she's grieving, and the question is in the scene, she's going to act out a bit, maybe, and maybe makes her bad decisions, which is being part of her theme, right? So she's going to act out against the nobles of Marine at the time, or how is she going to deal with that? And it was a bit of a certain amount of, like, where's the emotion going to be? Where are we going to, how are she going to see it? So she's facing away from people behind at the beginning. And, you know, and Amelia is an amazing actress, and I'd worked enough at that point, but mid, midway to the season that I could sort of see, you get a sense

sometimes, like when you're shooting, I think it's for me when I'm operating or not, like, sort of, he's watching the actors as it takes go by, kind of like the internal mechanics are starting to work where it's unconscious and as the performance is building. And you sort of see like, you know, you can sort of see like the gear shift going. It's like, oh, yeah, there's, you know, this is, it's amazing, but, you know, I learned this on the killing actually where I worked the same cast for three years and started to go out, it's like, you know, me, Ray, but like I mean just do one more. I'll figure out a way why.

Because I can sort of see when she's about to get out of the top gear and something it's credible is going to come out. And I sort of had this sense of that for mealy in this scene. One of the things we talked about, Jeremy and I was a specific super tight shot that we were going to looking a bit more of a little higher. It's sort of a shot that's been used many times before, but sort of feels like the world has been coming down on you a little bit. And we've been trying to looking for certain places,

what scenes in the episodes, we were the two episodes we had to use this. And this seemed like this is probably a great one. And it's like, wow, this would be a great time for it because I can tell she's like she's really, it's like it's quite emotional. I know there's a lot there to look at and be very nice and close. And so at the very end, and we were a bit behind. I pushed him, it's like, let me, I push the camera right in. It'll take five seconds and do one or take. And I immediately could sort of see us like hustling and she's like just stay there and move the camera in and did that.

And she's amazing. And she's like incredible in this moment, like a tear rolls down her cheek. It's like, I mean, it was like this magic thing to capture. And, but it took like sort of time to sort of like we learned how to pay attention that way in some ways and also have the idea of like we had some ideas and when we throw it in. And that's all that's all like a fluid thing, right? It's like the happy accent of like you have to have some ideas in your head about what you're going to toss around and when you're going to shoot a scene. But you don't know what's that, you know, when it's going to

come up. There's a lot of flexibility to that and a lot of responding to things or think, which makes the shooting such a, you know, such an exciting thing. Like, you know, for me anyways. Yeah, you know, that makes me think, like, was there a point, maybe it was on the killing or maybe, you know, Game of Thrones or something, but was there a point where you, where your sort of natural risk aversion went away? Because I feel like when you're starting out, you know, as a DP, you really try to play it safer, make everything pretty or like you're trying not to lose your job or whatever, you know. Yeah, oh yeah, this is a really, this is a great topic. because it's, it's, uh, because he relates to people like Conrad Hall at that point. Like, you know, the, you know, it's even some of the great masters that have managed to meet, you know, in my life now, like, you know, Roger Deacons, everything else.

I was like, Roger's the hardest working guy and, you know, he's extremely hard working when he's, because he's just, like, is this good enough? Is this, I don't know. Like, he's just, that's how he is. Um, but also in a sense, in a very British. Yeah, true. But also he has, and also he has nothing to prove. He's not like, is this good enough like, will people be judging?

he's just like thinking for him it's like is this the right choice am i am i you know am i failing in my effort of creation not like i got to look good whereas when you're starting on and i started very very young i was very fortunate to be but i'm like in my early 20s i looked like i was like 15 so there's a lot of like who's the kid why is the kid shooting that we're doing this and and so you know you there is a sense where you you feel the microscope on you and you want to make sure you know do the job proper do the job well and properly but you can easily second guess yourself because you think you're going to be only judged by, let's say, just the lighting, right? And you'll also be judged by if you're quick enough, how you work with the tree, everything else.

But the usual when you're starting out, you're usually more focused on, I have to figure out how to do this and get this lit. And I'm also maybe not as experience, haven't created how to do certain things. And, you know, a director I know just told me a story last week, which is about this. And I was recognizing it was somebody, she was very frustrated by the DP she was working with because she wanted to do something with a moving camera, a bit more of a wonder in this room. and I ended up in the door and dramatically it made sense. And he just refused because he was like, he couldn't, I can't know how to like that. I can't do it. And he was in that state where he's like, I have to look out for how it looks, right?

And he'd know how to do it. And he wasn't willing to try and figure out on the fly because he was too afraid of not being able to do it or the time. But he was, you know, he was governed more by the fear of that. Whereas now I find myself like, you know, doing things like with the director. Like, what if we tell all this? And then after something, how the hell am I going to light that? But I'm more excited about the storytelling content of the shot and the lighting is supposed to just that. And I think it crossed over with a bit of experience.

I think the first few times I was doing that, it was more like you just realized it's not the end of the world if it doesn't quite work out in a certain way. And that fear of it not when you're less worried about it not working out, it usually always does work out. There's a certain amount of confidence you get when you shot a little bit more. And it just took a little while for me to, you know, because I was very, very, like, I used to feel, I used to feel the pressure a huge amount when I was starting out, even when I was doing, like, like, films like Slitter, for example, which was like 2007, we shot that now, so it was eight, um, I was with James Gunn and it was like, and we had, you know, a $28 million movie, tried to be made for $15 million. So every, you know, nothing was, we never had enough for anything to do it. And we had a lot of, and I was, a lot of them were new to me. And it was a lot of, and I was, I was very young. So it was like, the microscope was on. Right. It was anything going wrong. It was all obviously my fault because I'm like the weak link in that in that context, right? Like that they would look at me as like this small art house DP who's now doing this, you know, almost $20 million horror film. And that was tough. I felt like felt the personal pressure a lot. And I knew a couple of producers well. And you know, they were vouching me stuff like that. But they were easily, you know, there's a lot of room under the bus for people. And I was definitely the person that could end up under the wheel sometimes. So it, that kind of stuff can kind of wear on you a little bit. But it. But it's. if you if you persevere and get through it, then like you kind of come across over a point where you, it's just like you feel a bit freer, right? You just feel like you don't have to prove yourself. Like every setup, like my director friend was stumped that day. That poor cinematographer,

he thought like he had to prove himself that day and he had been asked do things before and was too afraid of failing that he wasn't willing to take a risk with her. And so he was really as like self-preservation for him, right? It was less like. And there comes a point where you, like, you're less about the self-preservation because you've kind of either done it enough or have the confidence go like, you know what, I'll figure it out. And if I can't figure out, I'll tell her I can't figure it out. But it's more important that I do that. And I think, I think the thing that made the difference for me was, which probably was doing some television, I think specifically the killing, because that show was still like, you know, doing 45 minutes

and seven days-ish, seven and a half days episodes. So, you know, it's a fairly A lot of quick pace and a lot of really interesting, great, really great directors. And they were, you know, kind of demanding. Some of them are like, well, let's, you know, Ed Bianchi doesn't want to do a lot of coverage. So this shots can be sometimes kind of complicated. But you get so good at being on the fly that you're kind of always on the fly in some ways. And that leads to like, you know what? Then it's like I don't get thrown off as easily.

So, I mean, I could not have done the work I did on Watchman, for example, with the long oneer shots. Like, that was, that episode, the episode six of, um, yeah, of, uh, of, uh, this extraordinary being was that. I, I absolutely adored that challenge and I was working with Stephen Williams like crazy trying to figure out how to like really get like to block all the scenes and do I, because I and I love that part of the process, but I would never have been even comfortable even attempting that, you know, like 10 years earlier. And that became like a more exciting part of the process and just, in just the lighting. It was like, the lighting was served this, but the camera work was very integral to the,

to the journey of the story. So I think the short answer is it was experience and it was, it was like experience with taking a risk a few times like, hey, you know what? I got five minutes. What are going to do now? I've never done it this way. Let's just try that, right? And then that builds some momentum to someone says, you know, Greg, I want to try it like one shot.

Like, okay, great. Well, let's just see, what have I got for that? And then quickly talk to your crew and figure out, you know, because you're, if you surround yourself with really brilliant people that you like working with and also, I mean, that's a huge resource too. You don't have to have the right answer. I mean, I've many times I asked by a director for something to do that. I said, yes, yes, sounds great.

I like this idea. I don't know how I'm going to do it yet. I'll get back to you in five minutes to make sure I know. Because, you know, I don't know specifically how I'm going to accomplish that or what the thing is. And you quickly huddle with your, you know, your operator and your gaffer and your grip and stuff. And you look at the various possibilities and then judge them based on time and things like that. And that's actually kind of now that's, I know that's, I'm happily giving that answer. Like I'm, yes, I'm going to, we're going to do it.

I don't know how yet. So let me get back to a couple minutes, then I'll tell the idea I don't quite have an estimate yet. But I think just taking risk a few times, build a tolerance for it. And then it also builds experience to know that it sounds like a huge risk, but it's not. It's like it's a camera and some actors and some lighting. It's not like if I don't connect the nerve and the person's brain, they're going to be blind forever. It's not, you know, it's not that. And I think that for I think the frequency of doing that on a series really really helped me.

It certainly helped me on the bigger show is like, things like, like Game of Thrones was like, you know, a very big challenge, but that was cross-shooting some stuff sometimes. And we're like, we're doing stuff on the beach with like a bounce car and the sun behind a person's head and like, hurry up in 10 minutes. And that's, it's the nature of like, you know, some of that production. But that's, which is different than what you would think when you, I mean, this show doesn't feel like that when you watch it. But there's a perception and it's like, it's all like, you know, it's champagne, starberries and gold plate of toilets. And it's a joke. It's like, it's like, you said, no, over here now. And we'll

slowly. It's like, it's still a 10-hour day and it's a lot of complicated work. And And being able to be a bit more on the fly is a real, is a huge asset. It doesn't go away like that type of, you know, that type of tolerance for, for risk and trying stuff, you know, that doesn't go away. I mean, I think all the, you know, the great cinematographers are working now that I admire so much. And listen to them doing some of the films. Like, oh, you van Hoyt, I'm going to be like that.

They're like, well, this was a way to try and do this, right? Like, we've got to roll the dice and then we're going to, you know, try this new technique. And it just, doing that, I guess tolerance for risk is built by experience. just keep doing it. Yeah. You know, that brings up a couple thoughts I had. One of them being, which is more of like an education question, which is simply just like, what are some sort of things you can do to keep that pace up, you know, to work quickly,

especially when having to come up with maybe interesting lighting scenarios or whatever. But also, you know, with a show like Game of Thrones or whatever, or really any of the larger shows. is there is in what ways is that is it the same as any other shooting in what ways is it different you know uh in in the sense of like these like you were saying everyone thinks you got like a million dollar but well you whatever we had a million dollar budget per episode whatever but um you know that that's going to go forever you can do whatever you want and get every lighting fixture you want you know we're in simple situations where you are just on a beach with a bounce card like how do you keep that looking quote unquote

and not like a like a like an indie or like a student film you know because a student could just go on a beach with a bounce card you know what's the difference there that was that was five questions yeah okay um what's the first part of that question because I can know the mouse card they're going to tell you what's the first part I'm sorry first part uh dude I'm so yeah I'm bad no I'm sorry um first part was just uh it was risk aversion then there was was um oh well ways ways to keep moving quickly and still achieving a good result yeah um well i think that's and i mean i think it just kind of comes down to taste it's like this weird thing where i mean i can i learn on like in like one part of the journey of understanding how to you know at least how i would do this job as as best as i could figure out was it's kind of like i've got to come up with another glenum macros this is making let's say i'll go back to a film i did like in 1998. So it's like a $1.6 million $22

day shoot. You have to come up with a plan that you can accomplish, right? Like it's like one thing to say it'll all be this way, but like I still have to shoot the film in 22 days and I have to make, I have to come up with a plan to give me kind of what I want in that time. And that sort of, that sort of part of the problem solving is the same as when you're like, I'm on a beach, the sun's going down. I got an hour.

That's sort of the same thing. It's like, what can I do that will still give me the shots that I want, never mind how I'm going to, we're going to block the scene out. It's the same sort of thinking. It's like you have to sort of pick a technique that will fit into the, into the timeframe. And that, which is a really important thing. It's also what like, you know, what experienced directors or directors look for in a DP is they want beautiful work. And I guess, but they don't want it to be like, they don't take away all their time too, right? If they get one take because I've spent so much time, it's like, and, you know, working with their, with the cast,

they're going to need five or six takes to get what they want out of it. Then that's, that's useless, right? Like a great lighting like that that is torpedoed the ability to capture performance is not useful to anybody. And that's the thing going back to that earlier comment about the oneer my friend was trying to get. And so I sort of remember that that's the big thing was like, you know what? I want to do something that's going to give me a certain type of look for this particular film, but I've got to figure out what the recipe is. It's action actually accomplished. Like, you know, the way that's doing something with that particular film, which was shot many years ago, it was a bit of a romantic comedy.

And with a lot of gay and lesbian characters. And we wanted something kind of colorful and playful, but a little bit romantic. And I was like, you know what? I haven't used any rear nets before, especially in a very subtle way. They could, you know, give a little something. And it would give us, you know, give you some lighting artifacts. We had a lot of stuff on, we have some musical theater numbers. I mean, three musical numbers on a stage and stuff like that.

All these stupid amount of things to do in a small shoot. But it was a nice recipe actually worked quite well. And there's something that would give me a little certain bit of a look that would be identifiable with the amount. out of like with our art direction we were using and stuff. And that was a quick experiment. They're like, okay, now I've got some, one part of my look is now I've got that built in. That's something I've done now is just a question of like of the lens and that kind of stuff. And that's something it wouldn't, you know, require.

It wasn't like an elaborate lighting thing. It's like it light very simply. And I could add a nice little glow to someone with using these wearinets. And I picked kind of a warm color net too, like not a classic Christian Gior, which I couldn't get actually. But there were sort of a slightly pinkish kind of color, which were like beautiful on the skin. but it was a way to like, okay, here's a way for me to add something to this film in a way which will also not suddenly slow me down. It didn't like create the lens too slow.

It didn't, you know, cause other problems. And that's the same thing is like the sort of like, how do I do this scene, you know, in a few shots, right? Like a lot of things on the killing were, okay, the actors are very good. They usually don't meet, many takes. We want a certain atmosphere. And then I became better. Like, you know what? Here's one shot.

And I can put the other camera here and get him or, you know, her at the same time. time. And I could do something because we're, you know, there was my first show with an Alexa, first digital show. And I realized I could do stuff at night now with, I could, you see way more stuff in the background. Now it's a question of turning things off and blocking things. Now I can, I can create contrast by turning off the streetlights behind us or, you know, blocking it out flags or something like that. And then I've got a beautiful, you know, half silhouette soft thing with only a little bit of lighting. And then it's like, oh, that's a recipe. Now I can do that pretty quickly. It's like, hey, we got through the scene. We're out in the crime scene. I'm like,

Great. We'll put two practicals back there. I learned the trick of like putting a hundred, like a small, like a pepper or something like that with the sodium color on it. Just put it 60 feet in the background. It'll look like it's a light that's, you know, 200 feet away. And I can do three things to help, you know, create more of the mood I wanted. And it's very quick. And I can also, if I'm, if I'm clever, get a second piece of coverage at the same time or a second camera can get two tight profiles. And we can shoot the entire scene with, you can get four shots. We can do that in 45 minutes. And when you're doing that kind of pace, So he starts to sort of develop more of these little recipes for that. And that just becomes part of like the practice. But it's really about just seeing out what you can do in the time. Like the bounce card thing came up like on the same thing, on the same set of episodes with Jeremy on Game of Thrones. We had two scenes on beaches, but a really long dialogue with Tyrion and Jora.

And that took too long to get. It was in a different location. And we had a slow start for a few other reasons why stuff was things were a bit late that morning. that happens and then and the scene was a bit more of a monster than we thought in terms of number of shots and like longer takes and then we had a whole other scene where tier and jor and they've just like tiering wakes up on the beach he's as jora saved him from the stone man and pulled him out of the water which we don't see and and we had to do all that scene and we were like we had like an hour and like I'm watching the sun and it's like you know I had this old idea of like

doing this trick yeah now it's like oh yeah I'm like okay thankfully there was no clouds in horizon so we're going to get the sun right to the ground but then I'm And we're on this little spit, so we're on a, we'd scout, we'd scouted the location very carefully. And we'd plan some camera positions on the other side. So we'd have water in the foreground to get the reflections, you know, we had this little spit of water with them. But as far as the coverage, it was like, okay, well, now I like, I got to cross shoot some of this stuff. And I got to figure out how I get Jor walking away in the background with tier in the background.

And I'm going to have the sun in the lens. I'm like, oh, well, then you know what? It's going to be low enough that we can have Ian block it. So we can have him walk up and we'll just, you know, sticks in the slider. which is like, you know, as Sean Savage, as his operator. It's like, what do you think? Just sticks and sliders. Like, yeah, just that.

Don't even bring the doll. You don't try to bring any of that stuff anyways. I brought like one light and then I brought like just, you know, some black and white stuff. And then I realized, well, you know, if we, the way I sit them this way, but the sun between. Like that's a simple thing, right? If you and I are talking like this, if the sun's over here, you probably shoot both people fairly well. And so I've done that before. It's like that'll get most of the coverage to get the dialogue first.

And then just preset the cameras for like moving backwards to get the important part of the scene first. And then the beauty shots will look okay. The lower it gets, this is usually the sun will be nicer anyway. And also it's priority to kind of shoot the performance first. So we shot this coverage first. And then we quick before we moved down, I had Sean built the third camera in the like blinking eye shot,

which is like the waking up shot. We use a lens baby. And it was actually my fingers doing it. Oh, nice. Oh, yeah. I was like, if we did the coverage, I'm like, just stay here for one second, Ian. And Jeremy is like, we're going to move on.

I'm like, well, just give you 30 seconds. We'll put the other camera here. And Ian just look down here. like 30 seconds later got the take move on and then we sort of went wider so like I'd learn the lesson of like performance first and then while that's happening thinking okay where's the next shot like they're getting this I'm walking over kid this is going to be here Ian can walk here that'll block the sun and then by that's happening other camera goes you know um table working goes across the way to set the profile shot and we get two sizes there we'll finish with the camera in the

trees with a super wide shot and we can probably get those in one two takes in like 10 in a few minutes if we're lucky. So we sort of plan all that and sort of work at a plan that, you know, I sort of knew would work. So in this case, it was like, you know, less than photograph was like, look towards a sun usually looks pretty good. Uh, you know, cross-shoot people can look pretty good if they're the right, you know, doesn't, is not too difficult on their faces. So like all those things are going through the sort of plan in the head. So when you roll up in the truck and you're like, okay, sun's going down at one hour and 25 minutes, uh, DIT stays there, no,

equipment goes on the spit we can't afford the time to take things away when we have to get the wide shot um but it was like just making sure that each shot was still going to look nice right like you know what then it's like how do i put i in and peter because i want like peter i know will be and peter shot a lot because it's like he's like you know he's came near death and this is the beginning of like more of their friendship right like they're like jora kidnapped tierian and now this is like a little bit more of an understanding they had the the end because the next scene they're really going to have understanding about you know because Jora doesn't realize his dad is dead.

And Tieran's going to spill the beans to him about that. And so I knew we'd be on Peter Moore. So it's like I picked, like his was a more valuable background, sort of anchored the scene then. Like I think it'll be water behind him, you know, sun off the water behind Peter's shot. And then Jorah will look good. He'll look good, pretty good side lit, you know,

and the two cameras that way. So he's sort of like, I still picking shots I think are going to look good and then try and put them in a sequence. Does that make sense? Totally. Absolutely. But it's, it just takes every, every single scene is like that in a weird way. It's just that one was like, okay, how long to carry the camera off the spit?

Right. How long for Dave to get across the way. And while that's going there, kind of get the third camera to where the little, the old crane, which no time used a crane, to get the white, you know, that day sort of, and then it becomes your team, right? Then it becomes Sean and who's our focus part of that year, Seb, I think. And they're like, okay, great. And we sort of, then I do them doing the math of like, when you guys are done, you go there. And when this happens here, then you go there and we'll just keep league-frogging. And then I know I'll be able to like as soon as, as soon as everyone's out of the way,

I know, you know, and I've got and I'm right, and I've got the microphone to like my radio to Ian Mars, R-D-I-T, this happening here. And Craig's like, yeah, Ian's like, you could maybe do one more, like he's watching the exposure and except I want to go shallow. And so that's all happening simultaneously. That's the only way you can get that kind of work done quickly. But making a little plan is sort of the, you know, the beginning of it anyway. Totally. And that actually dovetails nicely into that second part of that ridiculous question I asked, which is making things look cinematic. I hate using the word cinematic because the internet has ruined it. But you know what I mean? No, I know.

When you do only have a few resources that you're supposed to maybe because of speed or maybe because you're an indie. But, you know, at this point, we all kind of share the same tools. We can all get a hold of an LED panel that's decent. You know, I love my kinos. You know, the Astera tubes, whatever. How much of, you're talking about your DIT, how much of that look comes down to the color grade? You know, especially on something like Moon Night or Watchman that is quite stylized. Like how much of that is in post that you're getting that look or how much is it just getting an Alexa or having the sickest lenses? Like can you get away with getting that look with other setups? I'd say the irony is it's very what you just, all the things just mentioned are like 10% of it. So in this case, in that scene there, it was about the location. And the one thing that that location was, was like, all every way point of the camera looked great.

And with the sun lowing down, then it's like how to use it properly. The biggest, I think the biggest factor as far as like what the word cinematic is, is, you know, is when you're scouting, place your scene in an interesting place that like visually supports the scene, offer some interesting visual angles that make sense for the scene. and also is an area which can like an alpha usually importantly offers more than one visual thing about it that you white because you don't always you may not be on the one shot that shows it but the whole scene uh in this case Jeremy really wanted the spit of land like a little sandbar so we could get their spit and their reflections right so that's in the shot we knew we'd get and it's that's also a nice thing to have the two of them are now linked kind of thing it's like there's two of you know there's a lot of they were shown about theme wise it's also fairly pretty um but just being on that little spit, it's like we're, because of course we are scouting it like, and Chris Newman is like, so we think the sandbar will be there in two weeks, but it's possible it won't be because, you know, depending on the storms in the lock that like that might wash it away, it's like it does move and does sometimes it's gone. So we're like every week, it's still there, still there.

It's still there. Great, great. So, but I think, look, picking a location and the setting for your scene, because that can affect the lighting in every part of it, right? And there's like part of the, And the irony is, like the part of this thing was we kind of wanted, like we staged the scene, even though the other scene was, in some ways, visually, this one is kind of more important. It was the one I want to put the end of the day because our, in our theme of our episode, our episode of Rish, this episode five, was originally going to start with a dawn with Dineris on her balcony, which is if she'd been up all night, you know, contemplating her choices and stuff. And then the sun would be rising. And then this was going to be a sunset, right? Also, it's a thing where Jora, at the end of the episode, looks at his wrist and realizes he has gray scale. Like, that's it for Jora, maybe, we think. So it's like a, and so the idea of doing it at sunset was like, for me, it was a nice way to sort of bookend that visually.

So then we scheduled that way so we can be there late. And also I'm looking at this location going, well, we like how this is. Does it work at sunset? And I'm like, yeah, I know whether something goes down. That'll be great. So I know if we show up late, I know it's still going to look great. I'll come up with a plan for the scene as we did. But more importantly, the setting was it supported the scene nicely.

it looked great, it was going to look good, kind of in any weather. If it was cloudy, it still would have been interesting in some ways. But I think that's the biggest part of it. Like, that's the thing that it drives me crazy. Sometimes I see other works, even some stuff I've seen recently, where it's like there's been like no thoughts like where the scene is taking place. Like, it's like you, like picking a location is the biggest part of, I think, the cinematic element that you're asking about and having it also using the environment

and the lighting opportunities environment to help the scene, right? Like there was, I mean, you know, not to pick on recent stuff, but like there's some stuff with, you know, when Darth Vader and Obi-Wan are fighting in the new show, and it kind of starts in a gray soup and it kind of finishes in a gray area, right? Whereas, you know, if when I was watching a scene, literal dirt piles everywhere. Well, yeah, you know, yeah, and I'm even talking visually interesting. The climatic episode, which also by the last episode, yeah, which by an incredible work by, and I know people that worked on the show with like you and and Ann and, and Hayden had a beautiful job in that moment. But then termed visually, like they, it's ship land and it's like it's all gray mark. And then they kind of go into a gray area and just like, whereas, you know, visually for me, it would have it to start with some, like, something with more sun or something with like,

and then get to somewhere darker because I know they want to get somewhere darker because I know, you know, the mac, I know he wanted to have the lightsaber's light. And now this is beautiful, right? I mean, and by the way, also this is like, yeah, by the way, I hate, I'm not kind of criticize those people were. I'm not, I wasn't there. I don't know what they're up against, right? Like there's a whole, sometimes I like that plan, Greg, and then they wouldn't let me do it.

Like, you never know this. But there's my point is like to think about where your scene takes place, how to use the environment. And if you want to have like changes in the scene, like you start seeing like you start seeing somewhere else and then go somewhere else. You could start in a sun go somewhere dark or like there's things we'd start in, if you're on the balcony, then you go somewhere more reclusive, right? When the scene is going, you start like in the open daylight on Thrones and we could get up in the kind of cave on someone's more isolated or the, the cinematic thing is all about. using those like tools right when you're when your scout locations like really think about that how to use the place or create the place right if like maybe it's a great location but you need to do one thing to it to give yourself this other visual element to use right like uh like

like you know that's that that's sometimes for me that's the biggest thing of cinematic is that sort of planning uh and that's you know and that's sometimes locations are expensive but if they're outdoors are often you know free or close to free it's just taking the time to be there and then realizing, you know what, let's be here at sunset if we can, right? And also, I knew if I lose the light and I'm doing it at like magic hour, you know, still panic, it'll also probably look okay, right? I'll still get there, right? There was a, like we did a scene in a film, it's a World War One movie called Passiondale, directed by Paul Gross and starring Paul Gross. That's a Canadian War movie about the Battle of Passiondale 1916. And, you know,

when we shot in the foothills of Calgary for some of the stuff and in the sort of home front scene, is a scene where he's he's falling over this nurse and he has this long talk and it was at the end of our day it's the same thing it's like and now we're we're trapped and we're like it's now it's went from an afternoon scene to like we're just going to barely get it before the sun goes over the mountains and and we it took a long time to get you know the first couple shots and we got like one and a half or two takes on paul and it's fantastic and it looks amazing because that time of day can look amazing but i made sure when i picked the spot that i you know because i'm thinking ahead like we could be here late right it's last thing of the day who knows what's

going to happen will it still look good late will it look good even if the sun has already gone down you know and it's plays as a magic hour type thing like um i've been inspired by some of bob rich just amazing work on um on uh he just some really beautiful stuff like that on the horse whisper and and like that you know then you sort of think ahead like okay if i get here at four it's great if we have to shoot six it's in a hurry but it'll be great if we get there and we're totally screwed and we have to do magic hour it'll still be kind of great so you know you sort of think about the setting that way, right? And that's the biggest thing for making those choices, I think.

Yeah. Well, and to your point, like, and I've said this before on this podcast, like all filmmaking, all art really is contrast, whether it be lighting, whether it be storytelling, or as you're saying, you know, narratively going from one location to another that are, you know, yin and yang, so to speak. You know, if you think of music, having, you know, I'm a metal fan, but just like thrash metal, that's just one note and the guy's screaming. Isn't that great?

No. You know? No. And scene to scene, too. It's like within the scene. That's something that I was so impressed with them. Like Jonathan Demme was one of my favorite directors of all time. It was now passed away. But he worked on the killing.

He did two episodes and the finale of the series and he did another episode. But we had this, the thing he was so great at was remembering like all the parts of the energy, both the location, the setting, the look, to have confidence. contrast within the scenes. And it's particularly transitions. He's very good at like, you know what, I'm going to go over here. And then I think the next thing is going to start with. We're doing it. We'd come out of a scene. He asked specifically he wanted an 18 with her truck because we're going to, we're in this scene where Linden's going to pull over and then the young suspects in season four is going to surprise him at her window and then in the talk. But the transition he wanted the very quiet scene. He wanted some energy. So his cut was going to be we're we're dawling past the gas pumps where we are. And like, like basically this 18 wheeler just rushes through camera and reveals all this, right? So it was a hard cut from something very static to it's like, right? And it was a great, but it was a great, but it was a great lesson like, right, all the tools, like use everything. Like he's, he's thinking about, you know, motion and sound and the slight shockiness of that cut.

You know, and he's a masterful director. And that's if I find endlessly fascinating and, you know, learning so much about that even now. But that's, again, using all the tools, right? like how do you use all the tools like light to dark you know I don't want to have the scenes all the same color one after the other when they're going different places I mean time a day you know quality of lighting it should one reflect the scene but also I kind of want to don't want the scenes even if they have a similar mood and visually I need to make sure it's like it wants to be like a nice little journey into somewhere new like lighting color wise or you don't want to confuse the

audience it's sort of trying to think about all that stuff at the same time and a lot of that location that's what the the big thing is that the really great director's like where is the setting and it's like i'm not doing that scene up against the wall we're doing that over you know with something that reflects what we're going for and unless i want it to be playing right there's a there's a time for that when you want like just a face on nothing and the ones that really think about that amaze me the most yeah the you know it's that's one of the reasons why i started reaching out to more um production designers for the show oh yeah just because i've said before like Sometimes production designers, or DPs get credits for the production designers work.

Oh, the cinematography on that show is beautiful. That was a sci-fi show. Like, you liked the set. You liked the costumes. The cinematography was just chill. Exactly. Very often great cinematography is mistaken for great production design. And I've certainly been the beneficiary of that many times.

And also it's a great collaboration too. Because that's the other part of that equation where the director is the designer where like, okay, what should this feel like? I mean, Stefania Sella, who'd be a great guest, by the way, it should be a wonderful person

to have on your post. She's a production designer on Moon Night and she's worked with the, I wanted to get the wrong filmmaker who did Black Mass and stuff. She'd bring some really amazing work. And she's very much like she's,

it's like, you know, you know, has this beautiful mix of like, I want to get the palette right for the world I'm making. But like I got to create an interesting setting for this scene, right?

Like, where's the scene going to take place? like the great, like there's a really good book on production design. It's quite old called By Design, which is an interview with old production designers like Richard Silbert and a lot of the films in 50s, 60s and 70s. And a camera which I might have been Richard Silbert just talking about. And he's really going back in the way when you're designing, he's like designing, you know, big proper sets.

But listening to him discuss in his interview about like he really thinks about the staging of a scene. Like he doesn't have a director yet. He's like, what's happening in the scene where, you know, this scene is. about X, this person's more dominant. Like, he's thinking about the staging possibilities. Like, well, then I put the living room a little higher on some steps. And so here, so it could create some levels for them to use. Like, really thinking a lot about what the scene content is and visually how to make it so that, you know, if I was cinematographer, I've got, I've got

window opportunities. I've got a lot of opportunities to have the look or have the room feel different. Like, it's a lot of things to just, you know, that have to go into, you know, making those decisions where it's like, what's this, what's this happening in this scene? It's not just a room. It's like, where are they going to be? Who's going to move around? Like, what are the ways a scene might play out, right? Because you don't actually know that until your director and your cast are in there.

It's a really interesting book. I know how I recommend it. It's been a lot of since I've read it, but I think I read just like, once I like when I was in film school. But that was like a real lesson in that. That was the beginning of that thinking like, oh, right, this is a really big deal. This is not just like, are the color of the wall? right like rule in one how about i don't make the walls the same color as everyone's skin yeah like you know like you know and if you want to really like low-key scene do it in a room

with darker walls right and don't be afraid to make the walls way darker than you think because i can always add a bit of light but it gets more complicated for us cinematographers to make walls darker like you know lighting wise you know there's uh like there's some great stuff in moon night where we went that with there's super dark walls in and um in the house that mark and the Markslaas Stephen grows up in in Moon Night. Like they're like really, really dark, right? And it's, but it's really great because it makes for a very easy way to make a lot of mood. It makes him jump out of the background.

And it feels like this, you know, weirdly, not weirdly, but this, like an over intense memory of like what this was like. It's reflecting his own emotional state of these memories anyway. And yeah, it's just like, yeah, design is like an underestimated component. Well, Stephen's apartment, too, is even like. Oh, yeah. Gorgeous, you know, it's busy, but not in, like, a confusing way. It's just there's like a lot of texture going to all the books and everything. Oh, yeah.

It's a very eye-candy kind of room. Yeah, his like busy mind of like, I love all these things. Like, he's just like a bit of a nutty professor for Egypt. And it's also a giant like loft, right? Like the big pyramid, which was because I think the, I think Muhammad's idea was like, let's put some pyramids and everything. And I went and he pressed her on that. And she's like, all right, if you want that, I will design something and we'll figure it out. It'll be like a weird pyramid library.

It'll make no sense, but it's going to look cool, and it'll give it that stuff. And, yeah, she's an incredible designer. And that set was incredible. That was our first week of the shoot, and it was quite amazing. Yeah, I would love to talk to her. So I've had the privilege on this show of talking to a few people who have worked on sci-fi shows that I've loved. And I'm being very specific when I say sci-fi, because Moon Knight is not the first show that you worked on where you had people playing two different people.

Uh-huh. Yeah. So you did what, all of season three of, um, of, uh, fringe? No, I only did, most of season, the, even episodes? I did six episodes. I did, I think it was two, four, six eight or something like that. Yeah, I think so because the, I'd like the first half the season. Because, um, David Moxness who had been on the show before because when they, I guess they

pushed the sea. He was on a big miniseries that pushed what he was doing between seasons. And so I, I, I sub for him basically on that. So that was just basically me filling in for him. And I don't think I didn't have to do, I did some scenes with Olivia and Bolivia, but I didn't do any, like, we didn't do any motion control stuff. It was all like, they didn't interact in my episode. So I didn't have to do with a really terrible ones like that was like we had to do with them with Oscar. I'd have to do that that work. But that was a very different thing. And that's, you know, when I look at my work on that episodes in particular, I, I'm like not, no one is proud of my work on that show in terms of like lighting wise and might have managed to do, you know, a couple years later on the killing because I was still, I was filling in for somebody else. I was trying to, you know, fit into the show. And Tom Yatsko, it's incredibly gracious to have me come in. I'd filled in for him on something the year before because during the Olympics, I shot for like three days and he liked what I did. And but it was still like a show. I couldn't really, it couldn't really make that my own. And plus I'm working with the entire crew that I don't know that I'm trying to get into their rhythm. And I work quite differently than Tom. Like Tom does incredible work, but like the way our methods are a little bit different.

So I'm adapting to his crew. And so there was a lot of like sort of catching up to do that for that. So it wasn't quite me, you know, getting to like have the kind of authorship that I or the responsibility that like the showrunner gave me on on the killing, for example, where, you know, I took over from my friend Peter after the first season and made it more of my own. But it's a great show. Like, I mean, I've, there's some stuff in the second season where emotionally. Like I remember when the moment where Anna Torv sees that, you know, they have this discovery of this, you know, people who are from the other universe and she looks up and notice that that, what's his name now, Josh Jackson's character's name. Oh, I forgot. Peter.

Peter. Yeah. And he doesn't know. And I was like, what a great twist. Like, what a great. And I was like, okay, this could be really interesting now because now this whole, it's a mystery because now why don't she's realizing that maybe she's going to fall in love with him and also he doesn't know. and that Walter's keeping the secret from him, which is a horrible thing.

And it became much more about the characters, which came in way more interesting-wise. And so when Tom asked me, it's like, yeah, you come and do a few episodes till Moxie, comes back to me, yeah, I'd love to. Because, I mean, what I saw last year was like, this could be really fantastic. This is really, really clever.

And they're such great actors. I mean, what an amazing collection of, you know, a wonderful collection of voices and tones, right? Between Anna and Josh. And then, like, you have, like, Lance Reddick and, you know, and incredible Walter Bishop, like just listening to them and scenes together, there's such an interesting dynamic of characters, even though there's a lot of, you know, sci-fi talk, you know, and that kind of stuff. It was, yeah, it was really amazing

thing to be part of for sure. Yeah, that, uh, it was funny because me and my girlfriend both love that show and we were, uh, I only have the first season on Blu-ray, but we were like getting back to it and I was like, oh, yeah, and then we kind of fell off for a minute, you know, work or whatever. But when I was looking you up and I saw Fringe season three, I was like, which one was that? And I looked at a few episodes and all of that came back. Like, oh, yeah. There's all of those story points came back. And I was like, that show was way better than I remember. Yeah. Like, I remember loving it. But it just all of that had escaped me since the, the show had come out. Yeah. No, it's quite that. That, that's, yeah, that's sort of like,

again, that's weird. Like, I mean, because that was 2011, I guess, right? So that's up to ways now. And then suddenly being less like, and now this other, like, the idea of like parallel universe and stuff. There's a lot of that going on right now, right? With the Marvel universe and multiverse and different versions of characters and um i mean it's a bit of a sci-fi trope and it's been done many times before but uh yeah it was it was it was it was story standpoint for dramatic standpoint it was very rich idea and it was think i think i remember anna discussing with me once about it was something like i think the cast had pushed for that she has pushed for that specifically but like let's just trigger our way to make these things about us more in

terms of like it's not just you know weird fringe thing of the week like connected to the characters not the x files yeah yeah and i think that was really smart i think that was uh yeah Because that also makes it for, it makes, again, it makes when you're doing scenes, like when you're blocking a scene, but you're thinking more about the journey for what this means for the characters. It's not just about showing up and like interviewing somebody and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and just like, yep, I think that's the information. We move on, right? Right. The scenes can have turns in them, right? Because there's secrets between characters and revelations and stuff, which can make the drama more interesting.

Yeah. You know, I had forgotten that I had actually watched Continuum as well. Oh, yeah. And I went to try to get it, like, just buy it on Amazon. oh yeah physical media thing dude each season costs like 150 dollars oh my god they the i guess the discs just don't exist physical media is not is not going away i think because there's we're now realizing this a bit of even if i want to try and find certain things for reference like to discuss with a director it's like just can't get stuff to some things it just falls off it falls

over to the ether and it just doesn't exist anymore and i think that's a bigger reason to make sure you have some physical media that things you really love um yeah and i'm yeah i'm a huge fan continuing with second one of my one of my one of my one of my friends that uh i grew up with is the creator of that show simon barry so he was like we were the ones making students super great films together as kids as uh so i'm super super proud of him for that show and the work he's done he's a brilliant writer and and uh i can't see enough about him it was a it was a fun thing to get to do i did two episodes with um uh with i think will wearing was my director and it's just really fun to contribute and and be part of that yeah well like i will say luckily you can get the first season was

$35 on Blu-ray. But yeah, all the other seasons are. I was trying to find discs of the killing. And I can't find the Blu-Rays anywhere. They only exist in other, in the other regions, not in North American region. Well, if you get it on Blu-ray, I think Blu-ray is region-free. No, I mean, I can't. No, 4K. 4K Blu-ray is a region-free. Yeah, but I can't see. There's no killing. It doesn't exist on any, any North American. Apart from season one, there's no discs available, which is like, I'm going to find him somewhere or figure something out. Because, I mean, they're on. now that Disney on Fox

like here in Canada you can it's on Canada it's actually on Disney because it's because all the Fox materials on on Disney here because one of the few things where they didn't have a Hulu dealer or something like that so the Fox stuff could all be on Disney here but in other parts of the world it's not but I mean eventually that might get taken off right then that show

will just disappear which would be very sad for me I yeah long ago I started buying records like vinyl records because it was a little bit of hipster initiative hipstery niche oh my god of me um but it also like certain albums definitely were mastered better than others like there's like uh as an example sound uh sound in color um is an amazing

sounding album on record that you know when it's compressed in the cdia but especially over the pandemic i started snatching up every blu-ray yeah i could because i could just feel yeah i know i'm regretting coming i think that that's where collection is worthy and they also stand up, like the Blu-ray encoding is quite good. I mean, most people have like 4K televisions now, but they, like, they still look really good. Like, I mean, I compare the files. This is a really interesting off-topic thing for cinematography,

but the files you can see depending on. It's all related. Yeah, it's like the, but like the what you see or the file you're watching for something. Because now I've got, let's say, 4K Apple file for a movie, and I've also got it on Blu-ray, right? And even though the 4K1, technically is higher-res, everything else, the sound will be better on the Blu-ray,

and in some ways the color will be better on the Blu-ray. right. And even though it's upscaling it from, you know, the 1080P into my 4K TV, it'll still look better in some ways than the compressed file from the Apple thing. In the same way that, you know, Disney's particular streaming, their, what they've done with their particular stream has a little bit more color and contrast than a lot of others. And in some ways, better than sometimes there's copies I get on like just another file you buy it on Amazon or something like that. And like, so the killing looks great. Like it looks better than some of the other files I've seen. I used to, like, on AMC, like all pixelated and all gray and mushy and the show looks fantastic. Like, they're a ticker algorithm that they're using for their, like, their stream, whatever, you know, magic voodoo they're using. It's like mostly makes those stuff like really, really good and everything on that service. Moon Knight, like, definitely felt like a singular. I mean, it's just Muhammad directing the whole thing, right?

No, there's two other, originally Mohamed and I were going to be the only director, DP, pair on it. And, but they'd learned, I think Marvel had learned on the last couple, because this was their fifth show they'd done is it for some of them it's just too much work for the director to to prep the six one hour time especially also because the like each episode's like a movie in our show right like you're i mean it's in different genres we're in the desert like you're in a tune like there's a lot of like film style prep to these things so they decided to sort of to split it up and to give um two episodes to another another director which they hired just and erran and um justin benson and Aaron Moorhead uh and so that which is actually kind of which I actually kind of which I Actually, I think it worked out really well. Because even at the beginning, Mom was like, no, no, no. And he's like, Greg, I'm so glad now. I'm not doing all of them.

I mean, it was, I mean, by the time we were trying to do episode five and six in the end, I mean, we're all, like, wiped out. And, you know, and four was, you know, quite a bit of work as well. Originally that whole end of four when it goes in the asylum, that was used at the beginning of episode five. But breaking the script for five was realizing, you know what? Four had too much travel log and too much the desert stuff, like cut that out, and move that up earlier, leave more room and five for the journey. because five was like quite a big episode and and so you're figuring all that on the fly and I think

that was at that point it was really great to have you know other creative voices in there to to you know to shoulder some of that burden and to and to work that out you actually uh kind of ping me off to like a two-parter um the first part being how because i you know in game of thrones you're juggling a ton of uh dps and directors and whatnot as well yeah yeah yeah on how like on 10 episode season there It would be five pairs, like five, ten episodes, we'd each two episodes each. Yeah. So how do you keep consistent? How do you keep the look consistent between all of you?

On Moonnight, I assume it was easier because there was only two of you. Yeah. And also in Moon Night, we were sort of making our look, right? So it was, in which case, like I started before everyone else, those guys, in Moon Night, I started before Andrew, because originally I was hired, there wasn't going to be only the one team. And so I had some specific ideas. I wanted to do just a few things. Like one of the basics things.

It's like, you know, I'm out of contrast, using darkness, things like that. Muhammad was a big fan of doing some continuous shots a lot, but not, you're trying to build things into a shot and not do a lot of inserts. Marvel does like a lot of coverage. It's not a very cutty show. Yeah, and I think we fought to get that. I think there's, you know, with something where the script is a bit more fluid in many drafts as we were shooting.

And I know Marvel does like to have some coverage like any, like any, even like anyone in TV, like even on Thrones, we would do quite a bit of coverage, me and Jeremy, which, which, you know, can take a lot more time. But David and Dan, if they're realizing, hey, man, that's scene seven minutes. I got to make it five. You know, then they can do it because if we get good performances

and all the coverage that they can tweak their scene and post as just as writers, you know, their ultimate showrunner, your ultimate directors on TV series are the showrunners. In this case, in the Marvel case, the ultimate showrunners are going to be doing the, putting the final polish are going to be, you know, the top four at Marvel, that they're the ones that are sort of like the ultimate showrunners of the whole MCU.

So like they will, they sort of take that showrunner role at the very end. And it's good for them to have some options. And they've learned it's like we just want some coverage sometimes because we just want, you know, we want the options to do that. And so we tried to give that to them when we could. But we also tried to not make it so we don't have coverage all the time.

It's the same and like the same style of shot. And we just don't want it to be because the dangers in it could just become all, you know, all very visually, very similar and too cutty. So we were trying to be smart about how we gave them that. But look-wise, you know, with some more contrast, we had some other ideas about color, things like that. And with just me and Andrew worked together, sort of like to get on the same page. So that's one thing.

We also work with the same crew, obviously, which is the same on Thrones. You've been the same. And of course, on Thrones, you have two main units. You have two different sets of camera writers and gaffers and things like that. But also the show is usually colored by one person. And that's a big factor on Game of Thrones, but Joe Finley would be the only colorist, right? And so, you know, he would, and even if, let's say, myself and that two other DPs, they might treat the camera but differently in terms of exposure typically sometimes.

And so he would be able to even that up very easily. And he would develop, like, presets for what he would want to be exposed. And I ended up kind of doing something a bit more like him. And we built some new viewing. Let's actually me and Joe for the, for Thrones. It helped me because the first year I was wondering like, okay, what am I going to look at on set? Because he had some very particular things he did, how he treated the Alexa footage, which really, because it wasn't quite a big part of the look.

It just had to just how we sort of would bend the curve a little bit. And once I colored my first few episodes with him, I realized, well, this is, okay, now I get it. Now I know why what I'm seeing is what I'm seeing. And now I want to build me a viewing lot and set a bit like your sort of base setup a little bit. So that way I'll be able to light more specifically to get where you want. And then it just made his job even easier by the time you get that. So it's a question of doing that sort of thing. But that's a big part of continuity is your colorist.

And the other thing is it's like in a weird way. like you just sort of you know Thrones is different because I joined season five there's four seasons of material to look at right and the look from season one to season two it's a pretty big difference right if you watch your show like we have you know I mean Tom Gates

would be like oh yeah great we used to have like 200 park hands up all these sets for these ridiculous super hard backlights everywhere right and then the sky panel came out yeah yeah well no not even that then the next season like it would Kramer and Jonathan Freeman would be like now it's like take all those down now it's like 120 case of the window

and we're doing a lot of like all software fill light and resimplifying stuff and also like how do we get the lighting budget down and i think it was kramer was like yeah throw everything small and a 5k throw away simple simply but also it was kind of made sense so like bigger sources became more natural look and like more bending into a and that's okay more window candle you know more of the sort of rambrand sort of style and that they that they sort of like began to develop in season two which is also something i visually i quite like and seem to make a lot of sense for the story so in that case we all watched the material right so then like all of us

So during the show, we're like, well, there's plenty of things to look at. And also all the directors, there's a great thing when they made a little screenshot book. You had a little book of a flip book of like all of the episodes had like a single shot from each scene, which was a helpful way just to like instead of having to watch the episode, like, oh, right, what did the great hall look like in this scene? You know, in this kind of context. And you sort of see all the various looks that have done. But the flip side, that gives you sort of like a general feel for the palette. Like I'm not going to do something. You don't fit into this look.

But also, you don't want to just imitate that because you're trying to come up with a look for your scene that. make sense for your, like for your flow of the story. So then, but it's not you're trying to basically, you know, create something that's the right mood, but you want to something to fit within the palette of the rest of the show, right? And so that was something that, you know, Dan and I would sort of begin on Moon Night, like, well, I don't want a certain amount of contrast and certain amount of them we've built a viewing lot with a lot more contrast than Marvel was used to, which we really, I really pushed them on and they were a bit, you know, I remember the post guys were like, well,

I'm not too sure. And then once we started looking that lot on the other material, like, oh, no, this looks great like good okay so we're in the right ballpark and it's been like you know it's also i'm again fitting into their universe right so we wanted to be you know unique in our own way but not so far out there it wants to look different than their other shows but not like you know so different that they're going to they're going to be tempted to like you know undo this type of look and you know do it else so we had to be fit our material like in our you know we start with episode one with a bit of a horror show right with see him being haunted by consue and then then we have a

travelogue thing, right? We end up in like the desert in episode three and four and you've got, you know, there's a lot of different genres and worlds in it. So we want, but a lot of them felt like they could handle like a more contrast and some more darkness in the image. And also using darkness as a way to hide things, right? Like areas where there is no detail, things like that sometimes, which is kind of unusual for their stuff. It doesn't have too much of that. Most of Marvel stuff has a lot of, like can sort of see through everything to some degree. So that could be different for us, but we felt we had a license to do that with the big psychological element we were dealing with. And so there was, and then it was like a color palette thing. And like what colors

you want to use? And, and we picked a certain color for some gold things, which became a gold was like in various parts of things. It's in both the chamber of the gods. It was in the, it was in the pyramids, you know, with Mogarts. And then it was like, oh, wait, and I think we're in the tomb stuff. Like, you know, Andrew used it in the tomb for the tomb of, um, um, um, out of China of the great, right? It's like, oh, yeah, that color could work. And then which is a, which is also a way of leaning into our more bigger underlying concept that like perhaps everything's in his imagination

right? So it's like then the idea of repeating some colors is like I actually will help us with this sort of overall theme and palette of like yeah because then like red can pop out. I realize okay I could use red to the restaurant then red and gold there because I'm going to use red and gold and mogul. It's like this if this is all in Steven's imagination then you know

how you pull things out from that because there's a lot of things that visually too with the things in this is fish tank at the beginning in his apartment, right? Like, if you look at the fish tank right at the beginning, it's basically a layout of what's in the duat later. You've got literally the miniature of the barge in there

and the gates of Osiris and stuff. And then because that's like his idea of what that would look like is, as Taurret says in episode five, these things be made out of stuff of your imagination in the asylum, for example. But also maybe it's all in his imagination anyway. So maybe the things he would have, you know what I mean? All that sort of idea.

And Muhammad really encouraged us to use a lot of color as well. after a while in the scene in episode three, we're on the, on the felucca going on the Nile. I mean, all those references are tons of neon colors and like, okay, well, it's going to go really, really crazy with the blues and the purples. And then I'm like, well, I'm going to use some scarlet type color, you know, coming from her side, her being going to eventually get become the scarab and like handed that color and have him being lit with like her color in the reverse and but also do it really saturated wise, which also made her look really lovely. and it's sort of a lot of things like that and it's like a building process that we just talk about these things like Andrew and I and like hey I'm going to try this now or try that now

or when you're you're sharing sets together it's like I'm going to add this I might not use all of this but I'm having this in case I have to change something and that's something that's really fun when you work with their DP as you can it's like you have different ways of solving problems but you know when you're doing a set you're like I have to think about not just if I'm

if I'm starting the new set like even on Thrones it's up to me to sort of design what I need for it but I want to be mindful of like also who's coming after me, right? And then talk to them about like, what do you need? Like, I'm going to do this, but is that okay if I leave this here or, you know, you have to sort of like, you're sort of all doing a team game, right? Like you want to also, if I know they're going to do something specific for them that's really important to look wise, I know to the same thing, right? So if I'm first, I kind of get first dibs on it, but also I don't want to ruin what they're doing,

right, if that's something that's really important. So it's all work together in that, you know? It's like building a workshop. Like I try to either a workshop or, or, or putting a case together or something like that, like an equipment case, I always try to make it so that someone with no experience of my workflow to open the doors and go like, all right, I got it. You know, I can figure this out. As they say in the Army, built for the average soldier. Yeah, exactly.

Like a bomb proof or just like, oh, you know, it's fine because, I mean, there's, I mean, one of the things I love about, like, let's say on Thrones, for example, there's like a couple of, like, nightmare sets we've had or difficult ones. I remember one that was like the tree of like which we was rebuilt the tree for where the Red Raven was right and I was like that was so I had a really tough day in there to do this thing

and also in this hallway and it was we went it was a really I fell way behind and I finally realized like well what I should have done with the top light over over Max one side I was like you know what and I was and that was going after me and said okay look I did this but I've realized this is the thing I should like there's one more piece to this to make this really good

and try this and she's like yeah thanks so much right because then she's like because she's coming in with out even less time. And so she's going to use a lot of what I've done. But I've now, I'm like, oh, if I could keep going, this is what I, you know, I fixed it and post a little bit with, with Joe's help. But that kind of stuff, great. Or if I'm in the, I was in the first in the great hall, I think, in the, in one season, right, in the in the Winterfield Hall, we've got a certain type of look. And I, you know, I'm like, well, I want to add this one thing. And Tom's like,

yeah, we thought about doing that. So we'll add that this year. And it'll be looking down the hallway. There'd be like a little window. And not that they would just leave that, right? and think a net or someone else like that. And that hallway looked right. I just left all that. It's like one less thing to do it, just a bit of the background. Because when you get into these bigger sets, like you're, you're not starting on a show like that. Like, oh, no, how should I start lighting the great hall?

It's like, no, it's like crew call blocking 15 minutes before. We should be shooting an hour afterwards. So all I'm really lighting in is like the shots of the scene where I'm adapting what I've, what we've prelit to get shooting, right? So the hard work of like what's out each window or what's down the end of the hallway. That all needs to be done beforehand. And if you're doing it with it, again, another deep teeth afterwards, like, yeah, this is what I'm going to doing. And they're like, great, I can be great.

I can leave that. I can worry about my part of the scene here. I mean, I mean, I think I told the story before, but Jonathan Freeman and I both had scenes in John Snow's office in the seventh season where the windows are closed, right? And the whole set was, it's like super dark charcoal walls. The whole look event was made for the first season with like windows open, beam a sun. Like, that's how you make the room look good. It happens to be reflecting off the desk Yeah, or yeah, it creates some contrast, easy, a key,

let you know where the key can be for the sort of simpler, you know, side lighting that would happen with that kind of thing. And so it's like, what do you mean? Like, all the windows are closed. And we're like, oh, Christ. And John was like, how the fuck are we going to do this? Like, he had a, we both had a, you know,

substantial page count scenes in there. And we didn't want to do it all firelight too. It felt wrong for it all to be like all firelight. Like, how do you? And also, it's a small room. It's like a fireplace you can hide. It's tricky to, it's not a big, it's not a big room. So we, you know, I did some experiments with like widening the gap between the shutters, right?

So if you looked at them from an angle, you could just see a little bit of hot like daylight, right? Or through the thing, even hot, you know, snowlight or whatever. And that, that probably, like, well, you know, if I have that in the shot, I can believably make some cooler light from that side, right? It looks like, like, you know, if you draw the sheets closed and you've got like a little other blind's clothes, you get a little bit hot at the bottom. that sort of idea in a room with, let's say, a blinds. And now I realized, okay, maybe that's, I could be, we do this. So I did him some tasks and John's like, okay, good. That looks like it's like, you proved it can work.

Now it's like I got somewhere to start, right? Because for him, you know, he also had a very big, complicated scene. And he managed to get his stuff staged by the window, which actually really helped. And this seems really lovely. But it's like that with the two of us together, just like scratching your heads. Like, this is not something this set was ever supposed to be made for. But we had to come out. And then I realized, oh, if I do these profiles.

is now, I can make them really dark. Like, I can make, like, just like this weird thing where it's just this beautiful silhouette of Sophie and the little finger and I just make it like, which then it was like an interesting way to sort of like wonder what they're thinking and using darkness as this sort of like, now it's like a compositional element because I'm literally just looking at a lined face and just like a bunch of like negative space. So all these ideas kind of came out of that idea anyway. And it was kind of a originally would look like it's going to be a torturous nightmare that

was like, how can I make this thing not look terrible? not do that turn out to be kind of like it turned out it's one of my favorite scenes I shot that year and and but it was great to do that with someone else together right like it's not like yeah I made it look all one way we were both like okay what will work okay this look will work if I can figure this out it seemed appropriate for um you know if it fits into the world of the show but it was a way to actually make the scene a bit a bit kind of creepier and and made Sophie feel more lonely in that scene which is part of the game of like that scene is is little finger manipulating her or not, right?

And it's like this whole idea of convincing her that maybe maybe Aria is going to turn on her or whatever in the usual game of that. So it worked out, you know, worked out well. Yeah. You know, I'm going to add like a part B to the question because you mentioned the colorist a few times. And I, over the pandemic, I ended up, I wouldn't say becoming a colorist, but I've colored a handful of, you know, a few indie features and a documentary and stuff. What kind of what platform did you use? resolve okay um and then yeah i got the little i kind of because i write for pro video coalition i uh i reached out to black magic i was like hey can i review one of those panels and they're

like yeah yeah yeah yeah do you just want to take the two so i so in my review i used it to color two projects nice and then i was like yeah i do need this i will buy it um that's a great way but that's a great way to you know to review it's a better way it's actually have to use it on something Yeah. Well, and also as a DP being doing color work made my DP, you know, in the same way that editing can make you a better DP or a director. Like coloring definitely was educational. And I'm trying to coax out of anyone I can. Like what is it that your colorists are doing in the grade that are really helping get that professional look? Because certainly you can do a lot of things in the grade, especially with how robust. the negatives are quote unquote negative uh you know you're shooting ari raw or whatever red code you can push that image everywhere yeah so um what is it it's easy to say we make it look filmic but like what are you kind of doing specifically in the grade that are making things look professional like that so especially on something like moon night or watchman too watchman

look fantastic yeah that was yeah that was uh yeah that was Todd bachner that did um that did uh watchman with me and like i mean i mean for me a big i mean the colors is a big part of the finishing of the show it's a bit for me it's now they're a big part of the cinematography team right because it's not something that um you know i'm finishing the photography but more importantly with the the way the flow is now i need an onset monitor that looks somewhere near what i want to look like everyone's going to be married to that and same way i want the dailies to be very close to what i would like the scene at least at the time to look like because that's what everyone will be staring at in the edit room and then they're going to show everybody else and uh i mean on the member one that watch the pilot, for example, they, like, they, you know, they shot the pilot and then, you know, Andre was off doing something else. And they literally just told Todd, yeah, just put this thing on there and do it. And he is like, no notes from anybody. And it was like, oh, basically, Rex 709. I'm like, this is just not what we want at all. And he's like, yeah, it was, we want it at all. And he's like, they didn't let me do anything. And also, you know, and I said, that's what they showed HBO. It's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, and he didn't have any support at the time to like, do it. Because it was, you know, before we started doing the series. So I was like, well, let's back up again and I want to come up with a palette with, you know, the production designer and and work on something like that. So because building and sort of viewing, that's a very important step in that process. And as I said, I think before, like that was on Thrones getting Joe to start building me, getting me specifically some lets that were closer to kind of his.

Because he may also when he's when, for example, like on a series, even with watchmen and everything else, it's not like a feature film. They don't have three weeks to do in one hour, right? Like they're, they'll go in there. it's like it's a very quick process like I only get one day in the suite with the with a colorist for any show so in that point they've done like you know the bulk of the work based on my notes and what they want you know what they think the show look at and I'm I'm so helping polish or just making some corrections and making some overall things or some fixes I haven't um that he hasn't they haven't noticed they want to do so building a view on that was very important and that really helped on drones a huge amount because like I say because of certain specific things Joe was doing to sort of like the way the armor jumps out and in in uh in thrones like you see like a lot like the sky and stuff like that there's there's a lot of saturation in the show and a lot of contrast but it doesn't look um it never looks electronic right like he you know when are you put that much saturation and you do have to bend certain colors away from it that will get out of control sometimes even with the Alexa

and pull brightness out yeah like pull brightness out and pull like the but so a lot of contrast and so there was a certain amount of a blue uh skew and green suppression he would do that was like Like, I mean, I can't specify the magic sauce because the one I couldn't describe it. And also, it's also something he's very proud of his own. Like, I mean, that's also part of the art he brought to was like, I'm going to figure out to do something this. That's going to give a unique thing to this and also provide me the great start that I can know scene to scene in. So because when he's doing something, it's if it's exposed fairly well, he'll have, I can start here. And then he's like 80% there.

Right. And like so that like he would build that. He'd like maybe two or three versions of that or whatever. and that allows him to spend the time for the finesse and he's not like starting from like starting from the log okay I'm like he can't do that at every scene right we're doing a show that quickly so and that's a big thing about and so the idea if I can get something like that that he starts with as a viewing letish in that case than I want in the case of watchman I'm building something that I want that I want in terms of a viewing let like I'm designing more from the ground up in terms of that because it's not doesn't somebody exist so far and that's the first step and then then then I know that I know that I whether we'll get pretty close and if i can make the dailies look pretty close to that and then you know in this case it's Travis that was the colored moon night like we know he's pretty great and he was he was very very flattered with the flattering for the photography that and i did because he was for him was like why stuff looks it's all it's like it's done like i mean he's not having to go

from ground up and go like turn day to night and like uh because you know both him and i like i mean more of coming from a film film film like a more of a feature film style of like lighting wise like i want i want it all in the camera as much as possible and i'll say The things I need to fix later, but from Travis's standpoint, and he's been on a lot of shows where they just don't have the time like that. And it's like you're starting from scratch. Kind of like, now I've got to build more, you know, scenes are all over the place. You're just changing stuff between the scenes. Whereas we were, Andrew and I were quite consistent with very similar tastes, like anything, say different methods at times, but we, we had an idea where we wanted

to get to and a daily stuff. We're like, wow, we're released. I mean, now it's like two, few things. I think the thing that in terms of like the general taste things are, if If I can see some like, what I, in my mind is like a sort of electronic treatment of colors or see stuff that's a bit too, if I see a lot of color in the blacks, that I find really tricky because then it bumps between scenes. Like, you know, for me, the stand, like the blacks are of consistent like, you know, neutral non-color. And a lot of the whites have the same way.

If you, if you contaminate those two things, I find it's very easy for it can feel like like you're watching like traffic or something, right? Where everything's like a, has a hint, like a hue on the whole thing. I find that if you have a hue and without a lot of color contrast, I find your brain tunes it out after a while. In this case, the sort of idea of this palette kind of gets neutralized in people's brains, right? It kind of goes away unless you're going back and forth a lot. So I try and generally stay away from like an overall hue because I find that, I just want to get tuned out. And it eliminates the ability to have the feeling of it.

If you can have some color contrasts within the scenes, then you can, then you're, people notice the color. Do you know what I mean? If you've got a cool light on a person, you've got something in the background that's not, then you can, you'll notice the cool light. If the entire scene is cool, eventually it'll all start looking gray to them, right? Like this is how our brains work, right? Because our brains, you know, it's like anything right, you acclimatize to what's there. So I think using more color contrasts within shots or having some contrast, I think is for me something, it's pretty important. And so a grade that will make sure that that's possible, for me, it's very important. like whatever contrast range and gamma stuff you do because i think that's what allows you to have some have some use of those other tools right to use the whole spectrum of things you need

the audience's eye to be able to have that and if it's all one color then you would literally i mean unless you're going to like a red light room or something like that you don't need something else to remind you it's red but the but it can too easily just like get tuned out so if i have anything like the last you know a few years i've been more keen way and i think that's also So what Joe was doing, right? Joe led for a lot of saturation. And it did two things. One, it kept the green from getting too electronic, right?

Because the green trees and too much. But if you looked at the armor, like the colors, like I've let the, let's say, like the armor will have like a patina to it of a certain thing, right? But it would be kind of reflective a lot. Unless he brands armor or something like that. But you will see the color of the sky in it, right? Because there's a lot of saturations. The blue will still read through, which suddenly gives now the armor has got like three things going on. It's got like a white sky.

It's got some blue. it's got the brown of the patina and it has dimension like suddenly it's like it really jumps off the screen and then you realize like the next to skin tone it's great because there's a coolness to the shoulders and the thing and so you have all these like layers of color

you know in this image and you know what's interesting thing about Thrones was the costume designer and especially at the beginning of the show and everyone else they're very smart to like in a shot like this so a lot of show was like you know 40 mil this kind of size you needed to be able to know everything about this character which mean there was a

sigil of some type for their house, right? Because if you didn't know, I mean, there's so many clans at the beginning of the first show, you're like, I'm who's who? Like, who the hell? But, you know, you start to see that like everyone's got their own kind of color scheme and it's all in shots like this. And there's a little sigil. So he's not paying attention.

Like, but that, but they. The hard of a potter effect of every, uh, claim having their own color. Yeah, it's own color or like, you know, like a little finger has a little bird, that kind of stuff or that, you know, there's always a, there's a wolf and John Snow at the of his breastplate and the but the ad then i think i think when a big part of i might ask joe about this at the beginning he said well the one thing is he needs all this stuff to really pop right because it's like i people don't you don't want them to miss this because eventually they'll start realizing oh yeah right he's got the wolf that's great so he's part of the starks right okay

good um and so he needs that stuff to really pop out and the designers are very good about using you know some color contrast in that but joe was like i need to make sure this stuff really jumps off the screen uh and that was a part of i think his initial like, you know, uh, concept of how he was doing that. So for me, having the ability to have color contrast is really, really important, um, as far as like that range. And, and then also just like where you play the brightness. I mean, we have a whole other range now with HDR, which is a whole other world. It's like, right. You know, uh, we're just getting to grips with now a little bit, I think, right? This is the first eight, the second HGR finish thing I've done. Um,

and we had an HGR monitor on set finally, but it was still a studio monitor because there isn't really a location monitor that it can actually show the full range. Is it one of the Canon ones or a Sony one? No, it was, uh, oh, I'm trying to remember now. No, the Canon ones couldn't quite really show the whole range. It just wouldn't, couldn't show the blacks. And so you had like two modes yet to use, but I can't go back and forth when I'm, you know, I don't have time to do that.

But I'm trying to remember which one it was now. I don't have to look it up. And it was a huge, a humongous studio monitor. It was like a 35,000 euro like, you know, monitor. It was like this thick and this big. It's a CRT one, but. Or Flanders, maybe. Oh, it was a CRT.

Goodness. That was probably Sony then. I think it might have been. Anyway, but the, but when the, you know, with the beginning of like, you know, in the in the scope of the moonlight, moon night post process, like the thing is they, you know, of them, because this is all this is part of also Marvel also beginning to understand how to make a six part show as good as, as quality of their movies for a third of the money and half in like a third of the time, right? Right. And I prefer. That'll lead us to the next question. Oh, yeah.

So, but in post, right, the first couple show, they did not have an HG monitor on set. And, you know, when SDR, one of the big things happens between the two, as you know, is like there's more detail in the highlights. Well, if the window behind you is now blowing out, for example, and you're tired of the thing there a little bit. And if we're doing that and I'm fine with that for, you know, with a little part of the scene on, but that'll, but that blur, that blown out level will be different in HDR and SDR, even depending on where you sit. So if there's things out there, which are gone in the SDR, they'll suddenly reappear in the HDR. And that became things in there. So they're the first cup, first show, I think they're like, okay, we have to not do this because now, you know, when the in the post pipeline led to delivery, by the time they're noticing this, the effects are being put in. It's like right at the very end and it's a huge nightmare to get to add suddenly more things to fix.

So they're like, okay, well, how do we get, we don't want to prevent this problem. So we need to have an extra monitor on set. Well, then it's like what can really do it? Only a studio monitor, you know, I think the DIT on WandaVision, like he bought one, like, They're like, but it's super expensive and they don't handle the heat and they're really, we totally didn't take them out of the studio. Like they didn't go to Jordan. I didn't bring them to Jordan in the desert. But they, but that was a way for them to kind of like the beginning of their process of how do we cut, how do we cut down this problem? We don't want to be surprised later. So it gave me in a way like, if I wanted to blow out, well, one, I don't care for see a bit detail, but I don't want to, you know, see stand there or a traffic cone or like, you know, the kind of stuff in SDR that might just disappear. And that, that, you know, that helped solve that, that initial part of it. Because their post pipeline is very, very compressed, right, compared to what they're used to doing. And, you know, the VFX are all coming at the end part. And like I said, like in the TV thing, the showrunners are the last people to really, you know, have a touch on us.

The last people will be like, you know, Kevin and Victoria and all the top people in Marvel and as it should be. But they don't want to be suddenly dealing with extra problems that will only show up in that last couple of weeks. And so I think for us, like our show got colored really well and Travis and all the people that coordinated that like Morningstar and everybody were really wonderful and they they you know we we head off a lot of those problems early so we got a really got a I think we got a really nice grade and Travis did a beautiful job you know because we and I put a lot of effort to making it as good as possible going into that process that we would do we didn't have too many like sudden problems like oh like no like oops I didn't expect that like you know so deal with just the normal things yeah you know

that was actually one thing that I was going to ask like right up front but I'm glad we're get into it now. Marvel has kept all of their films and shows remarkably consistent. Look tone wise, look wise, you know, you can kind of tell when it's a Marvel production. What are some of the things that they're sort of, I don't want to say, mandating, but do you have an inside scoop on kind of how they're managing that and kind of what's the mark? Because like when I used to work at ABC and all the ABC shows were pretty consistent looking. had kind of the same simple sort of lighting setups.

And I remember talking to Joanna Coelho, she did the rookie. She was like, the one thing she told me for sure was like everyone, you could, you had to see everyone's both of their eyes. Everyone had to be, you know, which is a little old school TV. None of this. That's not loud. Yeah. No.

But yeah, so what is, what is Marvel kind of handing down to you guys that's like keeping that consistency and keeping that professional, you know, kind of look down? I think, all that. Well, I think, I guess. I guess, one thing is when the beginning of the, like, okay, we're going to build a viewing let for the show. I'm like, that's, you know, what I wanted to do. And my first thing is like, well, I guess I'm going to start with, I'm not going to start from scratch. Well, here's this something I used for, I made up on the show.

It's like, well, let's look at the last few. Here's the continuum lot. Yeah, the continuum's not going to work. It's like, or, you know, those show with different cameras. But, but the, you know, part of the thing is like, well, what are the luts for the other shows? I also think about the other. Because they, of course, I have all those, right? And they have a whole, I mean, they have a whole pipe, you know, pipeline.

Of course they do. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, no, it's good. Yeah, but this is like part of the process right now. I was sort of like, well, I was expecting this. So Mike Maloney, who was the head of color, their color department there. And he's kind of like Greg. And then those guys were, I mean, I can't say enough about how nice these people are. Greg, by the way, the HDR thing is new to us.

And we've, we've had a few bumps. I just want you know that it's not perfect yet. And it's like, he's like, he's trying to brace me for you may be very, frustrated with how this is going to go initially, but we're, we're working on it. We know, we know. We know it's like, I know I'm going to tell it. Like, so, um, well, it's like what you said, you know, we're going to do that. I don't know how yet. We'll figure it out. Yeah, he's like, we're just getting that we're, we're getting better at this now. We're on show four or whatever show five. And like, we're just getting there. I'm like, it's a, no problem. Right. It's like, it's a, no, he was just more like, he's thinking, like, to please don't be, you know, so

upset when I can't just tell you exactly how all this is going to be done and why I can't deliver to you on, on settings. Right. You know, that sort of thing. But they were pretty far along, as it turns out, with trying to figure it out. So my first thing is like, well, let's, let me look at some of the onset lots for a few of the shows that are similar in contrast to I think where I want to go or a bit. And then I can start working with those because they were, they're like, we're not going to let you like come in and like, we're not going to, but I'm not going to have a lot that's going to have a lot of color in the blacks, a lot, like they're not, that's not going to happen. Like that's not going to fit in their world. Like we can look at that, but they will grade the show somewhere or more in the space that they're at. which usually involves not a lot of color in the highlights or dark areas, which I was fine with. I was just wanting for more saturation and more more contrast, right?

I didn't want, I didn't really want to push that other thing. And so I looked at how much of their other luts, right, the last couple things. I can't worry which ones they were, like one of the Avengers movies, the Hawkeye Lutch, which was a bit more, that's probably the most contrasty one they'd had at the time. And I was like, okay, good. And I want to look at more things. And they had, you know, to one thing they to evaluate all their things. They have a, they have their own test chart, like a Marvel test chart.

I think what they call it, the Marvel Marcy, which is like basically a whole bunch of like stuff from the palates of all their shows. It's like toys and poster stuff and, you know, a lot of stuff that's really like we're, these are like, I mean, the thing about their brand their show is like, I mean, Spider-Man's going to look like Spider-Man. So putting an all-orange light is like, that's fine for a scene occasionally. But like, he's still going to look like Spider-Man. So they're not really going to want to watch a show. He's all orange and like either wrong color. And which will mean like for the colors, they're like, well, then what happens is then we're doing that. And then we're rotoing him the entire time.

And that's like, you know, there's one of the big lessons was certain characters will look the way they need to look as much as possible. Like, you know, Captain America's shield is going to look like that shield. So occasionally it could be other light around, but we're not going to suddenly make like it's not going to, we're not going to let it look green by by mistake. So there's a large there's and that's why that test chart was very important like so if you throw it on here how does the test chart look are we are we suddenly building a lot that's going to make all of certain types of colors in the palette of the various costume stuff like be too bent out of whack right and that's a very very smart way to do that and and so are we went for quite a neutral one that we're building I just went with a lot more contrast and I know they're a bit worried initially it's like that might be too much I'm like well just put it on the test chart like I mean I I have enough experience with well that's it then they loved it. They're like, it looks fantastic. It's like, because I had more experience with like more contrast, your less than they're used to looking at, right? Because they do look. There was someone to think too, again, about what you get used to is, as I said earlier, it's like your brain tuned stuff out, right? So they're, and some of the

viewing lists were more much flatter than I would ever want for our show on, on this thing. So it was like, there was a lot of them that were quite like flat just because also they want, their big thing is also they want a lot of details. They want to see everything. You know, when they're in their edit, they don't want things buried. That was a, you know, a big part of, post-process for them. You're not doing seven. Yeah, they don't want to not know what the hell is in there, right? And part of it for me is like, if I build a heavier let, then the thing is like one that has more dark, like more contrast.

I know from also my experience on Thrones were like, I'll happily make that let fairly like make it heavy, meaning like there'll be a lot of detail in those dark areas, right? You'll be able to dig them if you want, but I don't want them on set to look all murky, right? Because I want to have the contrast because that's going to allow me to light to the kind of contrast. have in the scene. If I can never make it dark and I have a very flat lut, then guess what? I'm going to under expose everything like crazy because that's what I'm trying to get areas to be dark. So if I want to have a dark area, I want to build to have some black, I want to make sure in that black, there's actual detail. Even though on set on the lut, it's going to be, it's going to, it's going to give me that darkness, which one does two things. One, it means when they're doing

visual effects, it's you're not like pushing color into where there's no signal, which is what can great a lot of noise. And two, it gives them the confidence like, hey, you know what? It's contrasty, but I'm not, you know, I'm not screwing them over the ability to, you know, it is their show in the end and I don't want to like lift everything, but I want to not do it in a way which I'm destroying the image to protect this concept, right? Like it's not, I should win the argument over the contrast of the scene by like artistic merit, not by forcing it on them and just be like, you can't do anything about it now. I've unexposed it so badly. That's like, I don't, I don't really, I mean, I prefer not to work that way. It's not really a useful, you know,

collaborative method with people and and that weren't with anyone so so the idea was to build something more contrast you like that's a lot detail in it so there's a scene in episode one where like um oscar's in the elevator when he's been he's been chased out of his apartment by conchio and he ends up shot where the door opens and it's like just this window just like a little like the thing and it's just like all black right and there's detail in there like it's not down it's not down to nothing and usable i mean but uh but that was the but that was like the whole point was to have a shot like that that's possible. Whereas if it had been a much flatter lot, I would never, then I'd be relying on later making that dark. And in the dailies and in the edit,

it would have been all murky, right? And I didn't want that. I wanted to be black. So there was a purpose around that design. And so that was the big part of that. So basically using some of the baseless they started like building from those. Oh, let's start for this one and experimenting, but I couldn't like show up with a new one. And having their test chart was very smart. I mean, that's obviously something that they, because they, that's something that, you know, would come up early on. It's like, oh shit, now a Spider-Man looks wrong. Okay, we got to, or whatever character, like, whatever ironic thing, it's like, yeah, we got to make sure we don't do that, right? So it, you know, it's so, it's such a no-duh thing. But of course, they let

each of you, like, ape each other's lets and stuff. Like, that's the easiest way. Because in my head, I was like, what, they just make you use Alexis? Is that it? It's like, no, no, no. I mean, you know, I mean, for me, I, like, for me, I picked that camera because I'm also more, most comfortable with that sensor and right you know at the time and like uh i can't wait to try the new one out the smaller the new new Alexa I got to goof with it a little it's it's nice yeah I mean I think the and I you know I know a lot of friends of mine that really enjoyed this the Venice I haven't really done a whole show with the Venice is fantastic yeah and and I and I don't have really worked out like how I would treat the onset the let's yet and stuff like that I haven't

graded a whole thing anyway so for me I was like if we had to use large format which we did to get the resolution what they wanted so we were used them we used them mini LFs you know, on the show. But I know the sensor more easily. So for you, it was a little, like, I know kind of where I'm starting at with like building a lot. I kind of, I know if I get into this kind of range exposure wise. I know I can get myself more comfortable with that. I meant so much to learn on this show anyways with, you know, working with Muhammad and the new thing and Marvel is I didn't really want to throw in a whole new camera at the same time. So, um, but that was really useful. And also, oh, great. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also the thing is like, also with

Marvel, like they own those lets. It's not like they're, you know, it's like I have to call Eric Steeleberg. Eric, can I have the let for, you know, Hawkeye? It's like, no, it's like, trust me, they've got their whole color science department and the hell, it's like they've got them all. And they were most comfortable if we started with something and could build something based on a few things they already have. So they're not, they're just don't want to get caught with some unknown problem later. Like, it's all great except, oh, the purples are always going. Like now they just don't want to, you know, they want to not have too many complications, unknown complications when they're finishing their shows so so what were you uh obviously it's different

for every scene but in general kind of like what were you lighting to like what was your key and like how dark were the shadows getting if you were letting that let kind of base the contrast but i really i really i really i really can tell you i mean i think let's say if uh let's say look at the let's look at the non hgr space um iore meter kind of like that if uh like i use a like a like a leader false color thing is something that i totally which is something for me it's like also So I start to know what the colors are, kind of like that in the quickly thing, like a skin might be, like a Caucasian skin might be in a typically in the sort of like mid greens kind of thing. And then all the dark stuff would be like a, the medium to dark blue, right? Which I would set that level at like 10 or something like that or 11.

So anything below that would be black. But of course, it's still detailed down to zero. So that way, if I'm in the blue range, I'm in the 14, 15, 16 on a range like that. And that way there's plenty of detail. But it can look on the screen a lot. that can look very, very dark, if not close to black. So that's sort of range kind of thing. And then, so like, yeah, skins in the high, high blue kind of like, you know, midgreen kind of thing,

which is like 38, 40 kind of thing or a little less than that, is. But I don't really think about those numbers. I'm just more of doing it by eye. That's, for me, that's the thing about the lead is it allows me to sort of, once I get used to seeing that and getting my eyeed it, then I'm just on set, I can kind of get it. And then I can just, I just do it by eye and then I can have my, you know, if I'm at the monitor, for example, I can just sit there with the remote iris and get it, you know, kind of right where I want. Right.

If exposure kind of as close as possible to what I want and doing that more by eye, I find that a quicker way for me to work. I'm not thinking about ratios or measuring that kind of stuff. Like, you know, sometimes use my meter to sort of start a scene or to, you know, of an environment where I'm using the stuff that's there, depending on what the day's been like. Let's say, I've been out in the sun all day. My eyes are maybe not going to be as tuned, knowing what that is. So I'll use my meter to kind of get the framework that way. But if I'm in the studio and I'm kind of getting more used to it, then it's like I'd like to be able to do it by eye as much as possible. Well, the main reason I asked honestly was for selfish reasons because I kind of needed a sanity check.

I've tried to sneak that question by a lot of DPs and they kind of don't give me the exact numbers or whatever. But it's mostly just like exposing digital, especially depending on the camera, can sometimes be weird. You know, when like the Alexa and my cannon here and, you know, they both suggest like, oh, put skin at like 60. Oh, yeah, way too high. And it's way too high. And I started and I started doing it like at key or like you said a little under. And I'm like, wow, this looks way better. And I'm like, that's, I have to remind myself like that is what the engineers said.

Yeah. Not what the artist said. Well, also like skin at 60. Like what's in the rest of the scene? I mean, skin could be fine at 60. But like, I mean, if a skin, your skin. at 60 in that room like you're going to lose probably you'll probably be too high in the back you know your background than you want like for grading possibly right so could then that the whole

thing would be 60 70 high like right if your your skin's close to the back wall then you know what I mean like it's more about the range of those things and for me that's where the viewing let comes in this so important right because then I'm looking at the contrast between things the lot for you oh where is it uh it'll go it'll get go all all milky yeah let's see off So there you go. There's still, like you were saying, in the HDR, you would still keep all of this, uh, yeah, all of this for the most part. But. And also that's also, and that's interesting thing is that, that, that, you know, that in that canon space like that, that, you know, that, um, you know, that, um, log, that no, like thing is really narrow. Like it's all, you know what I mean? And that's the thing I liked about the Alexa was, yeah, it's flat, but there's, I could, you know, there's more. You know, Or, you know what I mean? Like, whereas other things confuse me, like, in some of the red camera stuff, everyone just goes, whoop.

And it's like, it's so narrow that I'm like, I can't see anything about the difference between these things that way. Yeah. Where a lot becomes even more important, I think. So, I don't know, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting question. I mean, I would never go by what, I mean, that the engineers can say in that context, but it's more just, and also degrading the stuff is what really tells you, right? Like, if you, the bigger danger of those things is, like, I think with a format like that,

for example, they're saying 50 or 60 because probably the biggest problem with those cameras will be the bottom will fall out when you're grading stuff in the bottom. And so they want to make sure you don't under expose because that's more the common issue that will make the material not look good out of that camera. Whereas maybe it handles highlights particularly well or they know that at least if they're burned out, they don't look bad. You know what I mean? It could just be a simpler thing of like what will give them a more positive, the customers a more positive impression of our campaign? camera. Right. You know what I mean?

But like I think like it's easy on Thrones, faces would be kind of like in the mid greens area. So like middle of the curve slightly below the bottom, depending on the skin, but also we'd have a lot of contrast, right? So they have a lot of darkness and stuff. And I think it was similar, I think on moon night. The light was pretty heavy. I think, you know, and sometimes like we'd turn it off like some of the night scenes where we just didn't have enough light or we just crank up the ISO a little bit or just,

you know, make a tweak. And we made sort of made tweaks for each scene, I think, in. We need a bit more like the asylum, you know, which Andrew had shot the first scene. Sound looks great. Yeah, but he made some tweaks just to like just to pop the whites a bit more, just to just stretch things out a little bit more, a little bit more high-end contrast. And we'd make little things like that for the some of the night stuff. But it would start with our base and just like tweak it a bit. And that was without, you know, going too far off the rails.

Yeah. You know, I kind of another two-part. I'm just noticing I had written all these notes down. And then, Jesus Christ, I got to let you go. We've had you far long. Well, yeah, oh my guess, five o'clock already. Yeah. Yeah.

I tend to give long answers. I apologize. No, that's fine. I tend to keep going until I have to remind myself like these people have families and jobs versus me just sitting in my, my girlfriend works till 8.30, so I'm just sitting here. But, you know, with sci-fi and fantasy films and stuff, it can feel like maybe they're harder to light or harder to shoot.

Is that, do you find that true? Is there, or in what ways do they differ from a more, let's say, realistic genre? Well, I guess what depends. I mean, one, you get different sources. I mean, like Moon Night, for example, we had a lot of, yeah. Was the second part of the question. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Stere tubes were like, that was the, oh, if I got had those on the killing, oh, my God.

But we're using like, keynoes a lot. And then you're like, on the old days, we'd have like the keynote and we'd like, okay, to get the cousin, the killing was kind of the opposite of throwing. I was shooting very, very, very under. So the idea was to use, because the big danger or the big concern then was like the top end looking wrong to a film curve. So it was like, I just want to make sure that I want to save as much top end information as possible. So we're doing kind of the opposite direction. I mean, there's some scenes in the killing, there's some stuff in some episodes of season three. There's a scene I really love in, in what episode is it?

It's the one where she's kidnapped in the car, Georgia by Lodge, Kerrigan. I can't remember episode, it's like it's episode eight, I think. And there's a scene where they end up in a parking garage, right? He drives her in there because he's forced to, he's kidnapped her, she's driving. He's got a gun, he's got a gun to wear and he's in the back seat. And they go into this garage and then he turned, they turn out the lights. And I'm like, okay, so now I get them sitting in the car by themselves. And I'm like, you know, and now I'm like, I'm getting better at this sort of idea

just putting a little hint of light on a concrete wall. But I've got them sitting in the car and I've got them sort of, you know, edge lit by like this nothing light over there. And I've just, it's just black in the foreground. But I exposed it super low. So it was like, I mean, it was like, if you had the waveform, everything was like, where's my, I mean, everything was all like down here. It was like this little bump like the top of my hand, right?

This little tiny. And, but it worked really great. And the grade, we managed to clean it up. And it's, I'm super proud of that scene. But the, but back to do that kind of light low level, it's like, well, how do you like, and like, and this is like we have no LED lights, there's no sky panels, no dialing things down, like percentage by percentage. like put in a double oh that's too much right back the lineup but it's more diffusion

so you're how all these tricks to do that and one thing we do with the with the kinos which we did with uh one uh taylor our amazing gaffer was like well we just put you know when the four things we put like one tube with uh you know because they have high and low right on the on those ballasts or if you we're lucky to get those ballasts and then you uh and then we put like one tube with n6 on it one tube with n3 on it and the tube without right so there was so with that step you could go like okay half power in the three and then full power in this like you could do you could create five or six little brightness steps instead of dimming them yeah because the dim would fuck the color up completely yeah you couldn't i mean the denos wouldn't dim was just like you're

on off or like whatever half power full power mine would go so pink i just traded the oh yeah the LED panels and for anyone listening the the keynote LED panels i have a color meter you know one of the ceconic the new ones uh i have gotten a hundred tlc i out of the came out of the Keno LED panels. They are shockingly accurate. That's a bit better than the celeb way back then. Yeah, a little bit. The, yeah, it was like we have all these tricks to do that, right?

To like try and create the brightness that we want. Because, I mean, at one point, like, we're doing such little little stuff. Like, I'm taking a tube with, like, you know, snow blanket stuff on, like that white insulation thing. And we're bouncing it into a car. You put around, like, Christmas trees. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. We'd wrap a tube and that.

And then, like, you'd be careful because it could get them too hot. but it to create a nice falloff effect as a way to sort of like and then we're like bouncing into a card and like you know making a book I mean it was getting ridiculously low levels but the it was

it worked out really well but what was I'm sorry because what was the question about the first part was just it was the difference between lighting actually this is kind of more where I wanted the conversation to go anyway which was just the

oh yeah science fiction regular but even talking about sources in general is like interesting Yeah, I think that's, I mean, in science fiction, you can get a lot of built-in lighting, which it can be really interesting because that can be like a self-lighting set is a fascinating thing to try and help to help to build. Like the expanse. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, I mean, what the work Jeremy did on that. Like, like, it's like it's. And also the expanse is also not just self-like sense, but I'm going to shoot everything with like a, you know, 20-mill lens. Right.

And there's like, you know, and it was. But also that's a great way. Because then you're thinking, again, I like about like the mood. you want to think about the mood you need in the scenes and also like how you can vary the mood right with the built-in lighting like you've got stuff on the desks or like you know you start looking for places for sources that would sort of fit the design but also or either build them exactly or cheat them from right so and then also you can work very quickly like that so the big thing is the types of sources and it creates a lot of conversation about like you know you know par bulbs or like you know tubes or whatever you're going to use things like that and there's some amazing new stuff. stuff out now, like those Astera, like those little Astero spotlight ones, like the AS5s and the S7s for like these little like small. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. Those are, because they also have amazing. Saw those with NAB. Yeah, they're like, I mean, I remember I was, I mean, the digital Sputniks were really popular. And I'll use those a couple times. When Balash, my Argafer in Hungary and Budapest on Moon Night, he's like, yeah, great guys, so light's a color. So it's, try the, I'm going to compare it to the stairs. And he's like, we're like, yeah, these are basically. Yeah, there's a way better. Let's use those.

So we found a bunch of those are a little iffy. Yeah, they were like this, it was very, well, there's a lot, way too many spikes in the, in the color spectrum for me. And the fringes of the bulbs kind of like the pattern would be kind of weird. Very punchy and really interesting. But these asteras look great. Like they get the, they get the nice kind of color response that their tubes have. And they were great ways to use like for small practicals. Like you need an uplight on a column because they're also battery power.

So like plug it in, put them down. Right. Like it's a great. And you can make any color with them. and they're quite bright and so we use them a lot in like the museum set for example or and location and that kind of thing you could also build into sets now like that's like i haven't done like a sci-fi you know something with built-in lighting since we've had this technology and you could really you know now with a lot of that stuff LED you can have way more like control over making

a mood um but it does make it does bring in the bigger thing about what are the light sources first seen like is it going to be the window or is it going to be fire like there's a lot of We had a lot of fire stuff in the chamber of the gods and also bring out the gold color of some of the outfits and things. We had some cooler things or, you know, there's some sodium color or stuff like that sometimes outside or it's, you know, we're like, I know I have to do a lot of cross shooting. I need the whole set to be, I need a set to kind of like to be self lighting and I'm not, I'm less worried about creating a lot of contrast in the scene other than the fact, I know I got to shoot three cameras. I got like six pages of like it's going to be and create something neat. like there's a like the pyramids in the the mogart set in episode three where they go to where the horse fight happens like the the pyramids were like you know these incredible metal

structures that stephania built and i was staring at them with these and she painted all the entire inside of the pyramid structures gold and like you know what i don't want to like line all these things with like tubes it's going to look to christmasy but uh and there's some tubes in some of the second unit work which is just a mistake that they're on but but i thought would be kind of cool if you get the light at the right angle i shine up it'll probably It'll probably kick off all these tubes and it'll probably get enough light off of the framework. If I light that quite bright, which will probably look good because the color is so intense. If I add gold light to them, I'll get enough stuff that will create enough ambience.

And I can add a spotlight for the middle for the sarcophagus or whatever. So to do that, I was like, well, then it has to be something bright. And it's like, okay, now we got to put. And so we end up putting sky panels down there into the structure. And they were shining through a little narrow gap. But the gap was just at the right angle. It would still get all of the, just in front of the structure. So that became, I could blast that really strong and then the whole place lit up.

And then it doesn't grade in all the wide shots and created enough stuff that gave a nice hot background, a nice hot bit of gold behind and all the coverage and created enough ambience as well. So it was like you'd have, basically, if I looked at me, you'd have a bright thing behind me, which could be nice little reflections on faces. But also it would create enough kind of ambience to the front that you'd almost see, you know, me. So it was actually kind of it served two purposes. but there literally was like, you know, light, you know, ripping up, bouncing off all the gold structure, right? It became the light of the scene because also I need something, because also it's a whole wall of mirrors, it's a pyramid, right? So it's like you're not going to hide lights in the place, right? Because you're going to see them everywhere.

You know, I can't be hiding them all the time. I can see as a throw some black over the camera and crew members, but to be moving and covering lights all the time in a wall of mirrors is bad. So that was a great, that was a good way to like build a light in for that scene. And that happens way more in those environments, I find, which is like what's kind of cool about it. What's the fun change of it, you know, instead of just imitating daylight, which is, you know, something which also could be really great. Then it's staging where you're seeing is, like, is there a window or things like that? Yeah.

You know, I'll honestly, the majority of the DPs I've interviewed have espoused the joy of the astirotubes. And I need them to sponsor this podcast because I've been doing it for free for too long. But I was wondering. Yeah, they're great. They're really a great, a great toy, a great tool. And this isn't like watching someone walk across that like, you know, like walking across in their hand, you know, and then something it's on the board. Then like I'm at the board and I'm like, oh, Christ, they're walking over there. Turn that one up. Oh, the iPad app too. I mean, any wireless DMX, but yeah, just being able to dial it in off the iPad is such a joy now. Saving a take or saving something by having an LED fixture at your or having either a combination of remote iris or being able to. you know, tweak the brightness of something when something's going haywire and, you know, maybe an actor's overshot their mark or like something very unexpected happens and you need to

adjust the lighting on the fly to save a take. It's like, it's an incredible tool for that. And never mind just being able to do like camera moves and like, you know what, when they turn around, we'll just dumb those things out. And, you know, this is how we can get where the camera shadow. And suddenly that's like if I can just have them all in their own channels, then, you know, we can now do something where we're fluidly changing the lighting just to make the shot possible to avoid the boom guy's shadow or the camera shadow or something else. And it's a really, it's a fantastic tool. Are you primarily using those in the sets or are they all sometimes often used as keys?

Are you modifying them at all? Because obviously, you know, putting them in the set is like the classic way. But I've tried to use them as keys. Sometimes the Titans are pretty bright, but the older ones weren't really that bright. Yeah, I've had to use them as key a couple times. So we used to have a clip where you could put two of them in a row and a little spud. so you have like you know you get two of them together um instead of been like a keynote kind of harness um i've used some we use them for firelight quite a lot which is because there's a couple

good fire cues you can use them on and so if i have real fire on the scene i need to add little more i'll put them put on the ground next to the fire or if i want to wrap it around more where i've got the real fire there and put some snow blanket on it that's a great we use that a lot actually for in the like in the chamber the gods for example just to add more firelight two or three on the ground to control them and then again you can dim them when the camera goes the wrong way. We did a couple 360s in there around Harrow when he was when he was raising omit. And there's what we'd like track with the camera a little bit. And we use them for effects a lot. Like a lot of things. There's some magical effects and obviously moon night where there's

occasional times when there's sparkling blue magic or there's a magic fight or some of some things like that. And they're great for that because you can put them on the ground. If on interactive lighting on somebody's face for like purple magic, I can put that down there. And even in a wide shot if they need to paint it out. But as long as I keep it out of the person's overlapping the person, then VFX, it's pretty easy as a paintout because it's so small. And they really want some interactive light on them, but I can't get the interactive light. If the wide shot, I mean, I can't shine it across set from 100 feet because it's going

to be on it all the thing in the wrong way. If it wanted to be between the two actors, you can put that on the ground, pick the right way to hide it, you know, and create that. So it's very useful for that. It's great for like what I'll often do is put them, let's just say I want to continue the light. Let's say we're in a parking garage or there's a column or something like if I want to add a bit more light just on somebody motivated from a window far away but I don't have room for all that I can hide the tube behind the column and just get a little bit of light on them and it'll still feel like it's from the source farther away and make it soft enough so they're great to hide for things like that and those are the most ways I wouldn't like use it normally it's really as a single key or unless it's like to be like a razor light type thing you put some card out to make it small and you can you know but either they even make those things now they make little like single um

tube like almost like a soft yeah like a soft grid honeycomb type thing or make a razor light for it and then it's like to put a kick on something because then it'd be super small like it hide it it it can go behind a piece of furniture and I can like the ground with it or whatever and it's a way to hide them very small that's that's a really useful way to use them sure um you you actually just reminded me of a question I wanted to ask and we'll make that the last one so I don't keep you forever yeah we'll just have to have you back on because I'm sure we could go for another two or three oh yeah we'll be happy to it's really i really enjoy the conversation thanks for having such uh you know shedding such interest on this kind of things we do also at this hopefully people are and hopefully it's useful for people especially some students are watching here's the thing man it's fucking useful for me so worst case scenario you know that's the thing is like i've been doing these and like you know i made the joke about not having sponsors or anything but like i've learned more in the past two years than i ever did at film school yeah you know and if i'm a handful of times it's been a case where like I'm working on a project and I'm like oh great I get to ask an ASC member

like what they would do yeah and I I will always this is a little bit of uh how the sausage is made I always make it sound like it's not me no no for people for people who might be working on I don't know some really specific project yeah I've heard once this one problem that came up uh no but I think that's a but that's a great way to motivate it why I mean that's I mean because I've I've moderated you know conversations myself for other things and um you know I'm always like Like, yeah, there's questions I want to ask. Like there's, you know, and then sometimes most interesting because they're coming from a genuine, you know, place of curiosity, right? So, yeah.

Well, and my thought is always like, if I need to know this, someone else will need to know this. Like, I have a note here that says, like, all of my revelations, someone is known for far longer than me. So don't sound stupid. That's just a note that I have next to the camera. But it's also like at a certain point, you know, someone's got a. Anyway, the question I wanted to ask was, what are some things working on these VFX heavy shows like Moon Night or Game of Thrones or whatever that, or even Watchmen to that degree, that maybe sort of everyone can use. Like the classic one that I say is like split comps. Oh, we need to get a lighter, the microphone in closer.

It's like, well, if you've got like a locked off shot or a nodal shot, just walk the microphone out for a second, get that blank frame. And then you can just cut out. And it takes note that you can do it in Premiere. You don't need a VFX background. Like what are some things maybe that you've learned on those shows that like kind of maybe everyone can use a little bit of post know-how? Well, that's that's one. Also, but the thing about that is also on a bigger show, like I can do that, but I got to have to get approval to do that. I can't just sort of do that on my own.

I've got to like talk to the VFX department because depending on their pipeline and everything else, like there's schedule. That's one thing is, like for me, the big thing is to be involved as early as possible. And anything that's going to be either like a, you know, CG character or virtual involvement. things like that because it's an opportunity for me to use the ability to us to create an environment to help really create the mood I want for the scene. If I know we're going to be up against a like a fake sky or something like that, then, you know, I want to control what that sky is. I want to be able to have an influence on for what we do with the clouds and like what the look and feel of it is because that's a big part of the look of the scene. And that allows me to, and the biggest thing is to appreciate, I appreciate one, talk to them as early as possible conceptually about any of those things. and then realize, like, you know, how you light the foreground affects the background, right?

Like, it affects both things. If I'm doing a virtual environment, then they will roll over the lighting I have on the person into the background, right? So it's like it's not, you know, I know it sounds simple, but it's like it's a team sport as far as building that look and making the, making the VFX stuff seamless, right? And I think that's the biggest part of it. It's also going to be an incredible tool because it's like there's a way, there's a great way. And it's like I say, you can really do something more extreme. hey, you know what if we did this?

Like there's a way to, you know, me to change and move to the scene by like, can you just, what if you erase all this? Or like, you know what I mean? There's ways that you can change a look of a location, right, or things like that that could be part of it. And you just don't want, you don't want to have the whole VFX section being kind of separate from you. It's a, it should be all part of the same, you know, conversation.

I think it's really important. Yeah. So for your, for your shows is VFX mostly like erasing equipment. and set extensions, are those kind of the two most common? Or they're like other little kind of hidden things that are popping up? Well, I mean, there'll be set extensions will be a big thing in a, like for a show with sets, like Moon Night, for example, because like the Chamber of the Gods, we built up to a certain point and everything else above it, then which case, the environmental lighting I'm making for that set

needs to kind of make sense with where we're going to extend, things like that. This is that stuff in Cairo where we're like, okay, we're not going to shoot on the rooftop of the Cairo, so we're going to build two rooftops and it's going to extend everything of that. So then I'm thinking about like, well, where should, the sun be. I wanted to be backlit because I wanted to be a hot kind of like deserty thing or let's say on the cliff scene in episode three as well was also like we built a cliff but we didn't build, you know, we were not in Cairo. So, you know, that's more just like trying to plan about where the lighting is. Like there's a scene like when I did like some of the

dragon flying scenes and Thrones like after I finished my episodes, I'd stay at a couple times to do the, you know, DeNeros on the back of the dragon. And there was a great scene in in season six. When is she burned? When is she really? release your dragons. Yeah, it's season six. So is that season six? I think, no, is it? Yeah, I can't remember now.

Losing track. Anyway. Unfortunately, I'm going to let you know I never saw the show. It's okay. It's okay. So, well, anyway, there are these big, one of four. There are these big, four big dragons. Well, they start really small.

But anyway, there's a bit in terms of the story, it's kind of a magical bit when there's all these stories about dragon riders and the people of the Targaryian heritage that she's from. Because they're basically like, you know, it's a, you know, it's a, you know, it's a Mede. evil thing we've got bows and arrows and swords and it's like suddenly somebody's got an f-16 it's like guess who's going to win the fight so in the degree please fire so there's a there's a scene where like the first time she really like the dragon rescues her once at the end of season five that's right so yeah so season six she gets on fully and she's flying around and then

two of the dragons are trapped and they and she goes out there by herself and burns a bunch of burns a bunch of uh these ships that were threatening her city and stuff like that it's a big holy fuck you moment like oh I guess this is now we've heard about this for five seasons how people could do this and it's a pretty spectacular moment and it's for the character and also for the story because it's like it's just changed the calculus of all of the politics and the power struggle in the show but for her it's also kind of moving and so they VFX this sort of thing and when I when Joe Bauer who are a VFX supervisor he's like well Greg it's like one these things are really difficult and because you did this amazing balcony scene last year like I want to

whether you're one of a few people you know that I know other than, you know, Dean Samaer, who could ever pull us off, very flattering. But also it's, I was like, well, can I, can I really pitch like what the sky should look like? Because a couple of them will be virtual environments because the city of Marine is obviously doesn't, is not a real place. It's kind of like a weird mix of like a Cairo with pyramids and ancient Aztec architecture. And it's like, it's a fantastical place in a dry environment. And he said, oh, yeah, you can totally like design like what you want to like, because I'm like the, the pre, the, what the dragons are doing is going to be set. but as far as like where the lighting is

I'm like well that one's kind of cool because now I can help make these shots look really neat and there was a particular shot where we're kind of behind them and like they're banking they're kind of going in for what's essentially an attack run where they're going to go burn these ships and I thought would be great to have

the sun across certain way because as they go with the shiny dragon wings that the sun will like travel like the reflection it's very familiar to like top gun you know two F14s like the sun's shining on the wing that's a bit similar I don't want to evoke that

imagery right to evoke like the images of fighter planes and famous fireplane movies and as a way to so i got to just help design that and then i was like oh now i'm excited about this because now i'm contributing this is not even my episode i shot for this episode that um Miguel sapashit sebachshnik directed and and Fabian wagner shot but i was like this a way to make i can help make this thing really cool and help do this and then the same way that to put a real person on what's a cg character entering the lighting's very important so when one of the first shots you know I was like, well, I feel like when the wings come up, because they're like, these are, I mentioned like a big, like an eagle with a longer neck. Like they're a big swooping thing. When the wing goes up, we should have, I want to put the sun away that the wing will shadow her, right? Which will then help make her like totally integrated into the scene. It won't look like a CG person stuck on a, I said a regular person stuck in a CG dragon. So the first couple of times, I was like, well, I put the sun over there for that. I was just trying to think of all the things, all the tools I could use to make it interactive and more interesting. I remember, um, Steve. Coleback, the preacher came in. He's like, what's that weird shadow going on there? And I was

explained to what I was doing. He's like, he's just pat him in the back like, like, that's fantastic. Like, he's like, because he's like, because at him, it's like, this is one of the hardest things to do is to make this not look like, you know, car. And like, it's all hinging on this, right? We know the show's going to have more of these things. It's like, we have to make this look great. We're all nervous about it. And so we just had, you know, because the animation is, uh, when you're shooting a person on the, on the, on, like, essentially the motion base at the back of the dragon, it's kind of running in the program of the dragon, right? It's not like a separate thing. So,

the dragon's motion is all thing the shots you know previs without a camera it's consistent yeah it's like print play she's writing is that way when they cut her out she'll go right on to the cg dragon and it'll be totally like the thing she's touching is moving like the dragon right um and so that means i know when the wing is going right so now we could play so we'd play the animation on a monitor in sync you know in sync with it so the guy you know my poor electrician who's like you know 80 feet in the air in front of the 20k sun with a with a show card literally yeah with like and he's watching you going like and then down and then like and trying to get it in sync we just once we worked out the timing it's just it's so ridiculous right

but it was so much fun uh and it was like yeah it really worked like there's that one shot it's like two flaps but man it totally makes it believe once you get the first shot right the audience is like you know more into it and um right and that fighter plane shot was really cool and so you know i just tried to use all the tools to make that that all this stuff as neat as possible to help the, you know, what it was the imagery was supposed to evoke and also just make it look cool because it's like for the audience, like, they've never, they've been, like, in the, Tacoma's story because the big, like, cycle thing of like history and unreliable narrators. And so there's a lot of talk of like old wars and battles and stuff.

And then as the characters age, the younger characters go into positions of power and like stop with the story. So when this happened, it's like, oh, we've heard about this shit. And like, it better live up to people's, you know, imaginations of what they've been hinted at, right? So, but it was, again, it was really, it was just like. a fun way to try and make it more integrated. And I think that's the biggest thing is, be involved early as much as you can, a cinematographer, any of the VFX or any of the conceptual ideas, because even the

ideas of what the scene should look like, it's the same for me as being in prep with the director and the production designer. It's like, well, should we do it this way? Like, is this a better thing to do like all CG or is it like, is it better if I build this part or it's like you want to be involved in as early as possible in the same way I want to be involved right up to the very end with color timing because we do so many things, you know, that we have to kind of like, you know, push to the finish line that's like me finishing the cinematography, right? Like I know I'm going to darken the wall over your head later because there was no way to do that at the time. And now I want to know how to do that.

And I think that's the biggest thing is be involved as early as possible and stick and go all the way through if you can. Well, and to your credit about, you know, the wing thing. I've been watching a lot more I have all these Cine effects manuals and I've been really interested in visual effects recently and the earlier VFX guys

were always talking about like exactly like you're saying like integrate how do we make it look realistic and finding like one or two things like even on Terminator 2 or whatever they're inventing the technology and there's like one or two things that sell it

you know the idea of selling and not just having it be totally VFX oh VFX looks real or CGI looks realistic It's like, but there's ways to integrate it so that it sells it, you know. Well, that's the thing about, I was going to say, the one thing about that on Moon Night, for example, is we have a lot of like, you know, characters that are going to be put in later, right? Like Talrette, uh, Conchue. Um, and that the big thing about those things is, you know, we'll have a mackette to,

as a reference, like a big Conchue head or a big towerate head. And that's a reference for any things, but also I will light the scene for that character. So I light, I'm virtually lighting the thing that's not there, which sounds. crazy, but because all that lighting effects, like if the, you know, Oscar walks through the same place, I, if I don't do that and they start doing the lighting, then they start doing lighting, which doesn't affect him, which means suddenly it breaks the illusion that's not a part. It's really important to light the thing that's not there. And it sounds completely crazy.

Like, I'm lighting the dragon that's not there and I'm lighting consue that's not there. But it makes a huge difference to the ability of those things to really fit in. And also it makes me think about the lighting of the scene, right? Like Conchew's got a big gray head. There's stuff in the chamber of God. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to put the fire over here because I know he's going to look cool with the fire under his beak. And you're trying to like, and it makes a big difference because when they put that in there with the reference they have with the, you know, gray and silver ball and HDR and they got. They are a lot of light.

It's like, wow, he's already, we're already 90% there. Right. Like it's like I want to do the work for the CG character. Because also then I am, I'm having control over the look and feel of the character in the scene, right? Which is part of the job of cinematographer. I just don't want to leave that up to other people that may not even be thinking what I'm thinking about that. You know, it's part of the job. Yeah, I mean, I had to read the quote, but you had said somewhere that like you should find out the first time that something was used.

Like I think the example you gave was a moving camera and then study why. And that's something that I've been trying to articulate for a long time and you nailed it in one sentence. Because I'm like, that's how you learn. You don't learn from reading the newest thing. Yeah. You figure out the first time they had to invent it, which is what I was getting at with the Cine effects and stuff. Do you know why they did that? Because they're usually trying to figure out how to solve a problem that was earlier and everything informs at each other.

Cine effects, great publication. When they went out of business, I emailed them. I was like, how many can you sell me? I actually got a handful that they said they didn't have. But I bought so many that they were like, we have some of these like. We have a few we can get you. Yeah. I yeah I it's funny there's oh this is a great like I stumbled across a YouTube channel there's a there's a documentary about model makers called sense of scale you just if you go into YouTube and search for that I think the company's Pierce film productions but he's been basically releasing lots of the little short interviews from the stuff that didn't make the cut of the film and it's all model makers from like the golden age of like you know pre-cgi stuff and it's it's fascinating because you'll hear like the idea of like well I had to do this and so I hadn't figured out like like

Like, you know, it's really a whole bunch of people describing the, like, the art of model making and that they had to make or how they solve problems in certain films. And, and I think that's the, like, the thing. It's like the, it's like the film, like, was it disgusting to somebody else? Like the film. Like, I, like, for example, I didn't figure out, like, when was the first match cut done in a swish pan? I don't know when that was, but like what you'd like to do, to bury a cut in a pan that you go quick enough that you can bury it in the motion. I don't know where that was. but I was like, oh, I know this technique, but it's more, it's, I guess what I was talking about

is it was just like, remember that there's, there's a purpose to those things, right? Like, it's not the, because it's like part when you're trying to come up with an idea, it's like, well, what is the, like, what's the goal? What am I trying to accomplish, right? Like, what is then it's, then that should lead you to like what the technique is, you know, you can sort of fit into it. Like, like, we used every twinning technique we could on moon night for, you know, for sometimes for expedience, sometimes like, I had to fit in like, how do I do?

I need to do three cameras at once. Two of them will be notable pans. One's, you know, on a techno dolly or whatever. But you're trying to do what the technique will give us the, the material that we need for the day. I just think it's interesting to find out that remember, like there's things we take for granted you forget are actually a tool. Like a close-up is a tool. Like it's a filmmaking tool, right? Like they're not going for the close-up.

It's like, no, a close-up actually has a purpose, right? In a filmmaking context, it's like it's a very different perspective to see someone's face really close. we see way more performance, everything else. And so, like, in the first beginning of film, like, it was like, oh, it's a tool. It's like, I've shot of only one person. Like, what does that mean? Or like, I know what I'm seeing it. It's like, you know, I have the edit, like how you use a camera is like a tool, right?

Like, you know, handheld. They're all like, it's a specific tool which has an effect. And I think that's what I was trying to get at in that in that quote was like, remember that like these things have an effect and they have a, they have a reason to exist. Right. It's like, what is it? What is that reason? It's like, it's refreshing things.

remember that there's a purpose of this and not just get lost and like remember it's another close up another close it's like no should this be a close up right like remember it's a tool that sort of thing i find i can easily get in this and especially in the heat of you know in the heat of like uh you know shooting on a busy day it's it's a bit it's for me the big battle is just not to get stuck and just like you know peddling the bike and not and forgetting where you're going right yeah it's a lot of like moving quickly but like no wait a second i'm doing the first thing i the people i really admire like the cinematographers that have known as like the ones that I've witnessed working and the ones I, you know, I try to emulate, but I often fail

in that way is they've really are really thoughtful. Like it's a thoughtful process first instead of just, you know, pedal to the metal and like just don't stop looking, right? You know, it's like there's, it's like if you're, it's a thing which it's almost like just to bring it back, which just earlier, the, when you have a lot of time for seeing you're behind, like the, you know, the important thing is, first thing is don't rush and don't rush the decision for how you want to approach something. Because sometimes just think about it, I feel like, well, do I need coverage in this? Like, no, maybe I don't.

Like, who's, what if they're, you know, and like, everyone have an idea, but it's be thoughtful instead of like, hurry up, get the first shot going, right? And the first 80s screaming at you. Like, what I got the first shot going? And I'm like, well, let's just think about what shot we're going to do. Yeah. Maybe we only do one shot. Maybe it's like wanting to pick up or, you know, it's like not to rush those decisions.

Because that's the thing that I, when I was younger, I would struggle with the most is like to just like, you know, the anxiety of like having a little time, like, get the better of me. And then I might be trying to rush too much, like, force the decision when now I'm much better like, you know what, hold on a second. Let's just take a breath and like not panic. And then try and make a more thoughtful choice. Because the more thoughtful choice will most often be the more memorable or better for the scene than what you just like speed ahead and just do exactly. We just did it on the last scene. Even if you can do it quickly. It's like still like, now it just isn't the right thing for the scene, right? Or it's like

trying to be thoughtful. I mean, the sort of like, to keep myself on track with that when I was younger, the idea would be like if I'm doing a scene, it's like, I need to think about it at least as long as it's on screen. So if like, you know what I mean? It's like sometimes you're so quickly. It's like, you know, if this is like two people talking for eight minutes, I don't really think of carefully about this and also spend the time lighting this because people are me staring at this for eight minutes. So if I make, you know, a quick decision or we don't block it nicely, or get things in the right place to express what we want, I'm doing a terrible disservice because this is eight minutes

they're staring at it, right? Sometimes it's like, you know what? They're putting a phone down. That's like, you know, I can make it look pretty good, the right thing. That's something you burn through. You know, we just get the take, right? But it's not like you want to, you don't,

you want to balance the focus you have and the consideration you have on how important is the story. Like it doesn't have to be about the length of time. It's on screen sometimes. It's more the importance of the image. Maybe this image is used twice. Maybe it's the first and last shot. your film or something but you want to balance the amount of consideration you take to it and the

design work and also the execution accordingly right like you have to pick your battles and i try and like remember like how important is this and and you know not to like learn through it because if you do that well and you apply that i find if i do have to again then i'm some point we're talking before then suddenly i'm rushing for something i'm going to know yeah i know it is quickly but i'm still going to apply this idea of like it's important let me just think let me just think about a minute before I just rush into it. I'll still get to something I do very quickly, but I want the thinking to be like, hold on, let's just, what's going to be the right thing?

And then often the thing you can do really quickly, it can be as thoughtful and as good looking as, you know, everything else, hopefully. Yeah. Well, and to the point of, you know, thinking about the first time it was made, another thing that I suggest for people, as from a studying thing, is look at the films that came right before a new technology hit. because one thing that's fascinating is like silent films right up until sound came out were pretty mobile. The camera was getting moved all over the place.

The second they had to put that two-story blimp on it, everything was locked off. It was basically in a phone booth the first couple. It was actually like a structure, like open the door, go in and yeah. It was a miniature house. So like if you want to study interesting early camera movement, look at right before audio came out. Or, you know, like the 90s right before like CGI was really. Available. Yeah.

A lot of those films are interesting to study now that they're vintage. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the matrix, that old film? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like it's really. Yeah.

I find that's like, I mean, also right at once Dedicam came out. Like suddenly set of cams, yeah, and everything. It's a tool, right? It's a tool. It's not for everything. Gimbals are a tool, right? You know, a split screens are a tool. It's like what's split diopters are a tool, things like that.

Like, that's actually there, you know, I use a lot of them. on watchman for example because it was we were trying to get into you know stacking the imagery and vertical planes because like a lot of comic book panels like there's no focus right no limited focus right so we were trying to use that composition like well i can put the foreground object in there and them and i can the audience can now choose between where to look which is like you could in a comic panel split diopters just look cool yeah right or like we used to like the swing until lenses for things like that too but there's yeah they're all tools they just need to kind of be applied, you know, correctly in the same way that, you know, how you move a camera is a

different character to it, right? Like handheld is different, like a handheld's different than a steady cam, right? Steadycam's different than, you know, on a crane. And like, you know, there's a lot of like how the camera feels and a scene, you know, matters to me. And in terms of how we decide to do that. And you want to have like come up with a strategy that's really consistent and will help, you know, the audience will kind of feel, they'll feel like they're in secure hands with the storytelling, right? Like you are, The other expression I was describing, like, the camera predicting thing. And so, like, you are, like, they are taking, they're, we are taking their eyes and going, I got you.

Now, if I'm doing this to you, there's, there's, I'm, there's, it's, it's a choice. And I'm deliberately trying to shake and rattle you a little bit. Like in the terms of the story, we are as filmmakers trying to do that in the same way that, you know, it's like it shouldn't just be a grab way to like increase tension if it's, if it seems inappropriate or like at the kind, like the big mistake I see that I've tried to. And I've been trying to get out of my own work is like, you know, for example, like if I, even if I want to have the energy, the problem is if I need the audience to see something very specific, small, don't move the camera too much because, you know, it's like it's people can't focus when the things move around like that. And you see that a lot sometimes. Like, I mean, that's just like the wrong way to do it because like if you want them to see it, they need to be able to see it. So, you know, keep the camera more still, a lot of them focus on. If it's all motion blur, they can't tell what that is.

And then suddenly we're cut into a insert because in poster, like, oh, you can't see it now. where now we've added an edit to the scene, which we didn't want because we shot in a way with the people, the audience couldn't tell what the hell we were trying to show them. Yeah, it's just like everything is a tool that way. So it's like, it's still so much to learn. I mean, we're to be talking for two hours and I'm like, now I'm realizing, all right, there's a whole bunch of things I've got to figure out before, you know? Well, you know what?

When you learn new things, please come back and teach the rest of us because I'm sure they'll be fascinating. Oh, my pleasure. It's really fun, really fun chatting about it. Thank you very much. It's really great to meet you. And I'd be happy, I'll happily come back anytime if I'm free. It's a wonderful conversation. Thank you. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production.

It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the Etherart Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.