Frame & Reference Podcast - 71: "The Witcher" Costume Designer Lucinda Wright

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

On this weeks episode, Kenny switches it up and expands the scope of the show by talking with costume designer Lucinda Wright about her work on Season 3 of the Netflix hit show "The Witcher." Lucinda has was also the costume designer for "Doctor Who" and is married to a DP which is fun for all! Enjoy the episode. Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we've got a bit of a special one for you. Obviously, this is primarily a cinematography podcast, but like I said at the beginning of this season, I was going to attempt to take some opportunities to talk to other departments that interested me. So production design obviously has been an obvious one because production design and cinematography goes so hand and glove oftentimes. And next week we're talking to another production designer. But this week we've got Lucinda Wright, who is the costume designer for The Witcher, Season 3. And I know absolutely nothing about costuming.

so I thought it would be fun to talk to someone who, you know, is very well outside of my wheelhouse and potentially learn something. And I feel like we did. We certainly had a lot of fun, a lot of laughs. She also did season one of Doctor Who, which I was very excited to talk to her about because I love Dr. Who. And also, her husband's a DP. So she knows more about our collective stuff than I do.

So this is a very sort of interview-y kind of interview versus more of a conversation like we'd like to have. But plenty of conversational. At one point, she kind of starts interviewing me. So, you know, just a real fun podcast this week. And I think you're going to enjoy it.

So I will let you get to enjoying it. Here is my conversation with Lucinda Wright. The way that usually we start the podcast is by asking how you got your creative juices flowing. Were you, you know, for you, did it start with just liking fashion and that got you into costuming or like what, what, you know, transferred you into the film world? What got me into the film world is that my dad was an artist and he had a great passion for film. So from a very early age, we used to watch film and just how things were made and lots of black and white movies and we used to play a game with guess the color of the costume, you know, and it was all about, it was actually about camera work and things like that. And when I went to college to do a degree, there were no costume courses apart from a thing. theater place. So I thought if I trade as a fashion designer, I'd know how to do contemporary

and cut and make. But I also, in my course, while everyone was studying bridal dresses, I studied Alma and kind of really did it. And they were like, why are you here? But I thought you might as well just have a go at it. So I was always intended to go into film from a very early age and it's just how to get in there really was uh were there any films that were kind of uh seminal for you any like ones that stand out as like oh that's that's my cup of tea there oh gosh um there was there were so many films i mean i know everyone probably a costume always says the wizard of os but that really that i mean that really was fantastic but um a lot of the um there was a film 1933 gold diggers

and all this kind of Buzzley Barcliffe all the films that had that real where they'd worked out the dance routines and the flow of the costume and all these stare and Ginger Rogers all those films I was brought up on and even right through to one of my favourite films is Goodfellows and that's purely

because of the opening shot and the way they go all the way through and just films like that and Citizen Kane, all the established ones, really, that you probably hear a thousand times in replies. You know, a lot of the DPs across the board all say like Star Wars and, you know, we got a couple like Matrixes, but it's always like the action fantasy films

that I think draw people in the most, at least on this side. I was some, I'm sorry, I was going to say, on The Witcher to work with Remain, our D.O.P. He was absolutely fantastic. And I used to keep him. And if it wasn't for you, we wouldn't even see the costume. So he was just the best. Yeah, so you said before we started recording that your husband was a DP.

Yeah, he was the focus pull in. He made it up into a DOP. But when we changed from film and went into the tape, he kind of lost the love of it. But, yeah, cameras has always been. a passion of mine. Yeah, I can see how tape would, you know, if we went straight from film to like today's digital cameras, I'm sure the transition would have been easier, but the tape era was certainly, no, it killed.

It killed. And for costume, it was really important because with film, everything was softer and like furs and levers. And then when tape came in, it was like, oh, you had to really reevaluate what you were going put in front of that camera because it was, I thought it was brutal myself at first. Then you kind of get into it. Was it just because of that kind of hyper sharpness, like Costas, you just really starting to ping off?

Yeah, yeah. And it was just, it was a big shock, I thought, for me, but you kind of acclimatized to these things and think, right. But I'm pleased that I did work on film because it was a lovely medium. yeah i uh hold on let's Aaron showed up something that I love about uh living in Los Angeles and I'm sure it this happens in other cities uh but you'll go to the theater and they have

costume displays out in the lobby so you can see um various films you know the ostensibly the real costume and it's always been fun to kind of get up close and see like oh there's like I remember they had a one for the new James Bond film. They had James's suit, one of them. And you could see the little stunt pick points. Yeah.

It was clearly a stunt suit and there was like the holes there and like just think. But something that's always fascinated me is, is the texture of costumes. Because I don't think in normal life, I feel like all of our clothes are so slick and then you get to film and everything has. some kind of texture on it. Yeah, I mean, that's the important thing in costume for breakdown is that I always like to have all the costumes. It was a bit of a running joke with my team

that I never, ever, like anything washed. And it's like, you know, I don't want any soap powder on that truck from day one. And everything has to be so grimy. And because that's what needs to be picked up on the camera. And so I have a great breakdown team. And we just, it's so important to get that right. for me. So, because it's going to be realistic and I really can't bear that look like it's just, as I call it, like they've just walked out the wardrobe department, you know, they've

probably got the coat hat, you know, the suit is so clean and it's, it's not a good look if you're doing something that is fantasy or historical, needs to look grimy. So, yeah, you do that. I use a lot of leather on the Witcher, which I love. It's, it's a brilliant, brilliant fabric, great, great thing to use. Yeah. Are there, um, sort of fabrics that, uh, you know, this podcast is ostensibly, uh, educational to a degree. And I think anyone listening who's maybe in a student zone or indie, um, would love some advice on like, are, are there some fabrics that are more, I guess, cinematic than others? Like, are there certain fabrics or certain textures that you're like, that does not go in a show?

kind of across the board. I think I like using linen, but you've got to be quite strong on your opinion because it will instantly look like you've been run over. But if that's the look you want, something lived in, I think linen's fantastic. Like I say,

leathers and satins, you've got to be careful. It really is dictated by what the character is, and what you want to have about the life. bounce off, like in the Witcher with Gerolt's armor, it was really important to get that molded leather with those studs and get that light bouncing off of it. So yeah, I think you just follow the script really and see what the characters should have. You know, there's something

that I tend to jump around a lot, but something that I think kind of gets forgotten about a lot is the important of silhouette and Gerald has an amazing so like you know you can see you know it's him the second he walks into a frame you like there is you know how how and how important is that to you and do you try to build that with every character you have or is it more just like certain heroes kind of I don't know for me every single character has to have their own personal silhouette especially if you've got so many characters you know and their color palette but you need to know who they are because on many scenes

there's so many people rushing past you're like, whoa. And with Geryl, with Henry and his physique, it's literally just to show off his physique and he's got amazing shoulders and he works at it and it was just to make that new armour I did for season two a second skin.

But yeah, every single character should have their silhouette so you know. And really when you first see a character on film, that should tell you what the character is, not unless you're doing like a double bluff. But that, without them even speaking, you should be able to sum up who they are, I think,

in contemporary and in historical fantasy. Yeah, you know, a couple of the production designers I've talked to have really espoused the importance of like the place that someone lives or, you know, the place that is that character's place should in all ways reflect that character. which is such an obvious thing to think about but I think it's easy to forget like

oh yeah every cup every light is there for a reason it's not just like to look cool yeah that's why it's important to work with as I said Romaine about how he was going to light it and the sets with Andrew and with makeup it's so important to make that character

look like they belong there so it does you know it all matches in and it's not like they've just wandered off the street into a set. It should just, all the colors and textures should work together as a team. Yeah, talk to me more about your interaction with the cinematographer

because I feel like it's not, you know, in my imagination, it doesn't seem like you two would talk a lot, but it sounds like those conversations actually happen all the time. Well, it was quite funny because when I didn't do season one, so when I started season two, and I started my prep,

he was the first person I went looking for, the DOP, and I went into the office and I said, oh, he's over there. And it was really funny because he said, oh, I want to come see you about what the costumes, because he was new to it too. And from day one, we literally would talk endlessly. I mean, yeah, I love cameras anyway, but endlessly about costume and how it was being lit.

And he was so clever that if I said, I think this outfit, could you help or can we reflect that? And that's why he was a dream to work with. You don't often get that. There's not many people on other productions. That's not the first person I would go to. But because of the Witcher world where it is dark, I just wanted to make sure I'm work with Andrew,

the set designing, a production designer, that we got the whole look right. Because season one was very fantasy, but I think for season two, we went into a darkness, especially after COVID when the scripts going back it went into a real dark so I wanted to make sure we were all working together on that yeah you know are there uh what again jumping around everywhere uh what about cinematography excites you besides obviously the proximity to your husband yeah that don't go out um uh I just I just I just I just I just I just

get, I just love going to the cinema and I just love that moment where you think oh, I'm going to watch this. I think it's always that element, are you going to be surprised? Do you know that's coming? And I also like to go and see a film where I don't think about the costume. I just want to enjoy the whole thing.

I think when you start looking at the costume for myself, you're like, oh, it's lost me. But it's just how, just seeing how other people approach these ideas and you think, well, would I have thought of that? So it's challenging, but it's also entertaining. It's fantastic.

Yeah. Are there any films where the cinematography really stands out to you and like kind of you could point to as being like maybe some more DP should watch these films? Well, I think I'm going to say a very obvious one, but the original Blade Runner was and I remember I was filming up north in England and we were at this, doing this night shoot and I suddenly looked across and there was this amazing power station and this was like in the 90s

and I looked across and I thought Jesus, it's like Blade Runner and then I actually found out the Ridley Scott and his brother were born there it was where they were born and I thought I wondered if he ever looked out across there because it just looked like it. It was stunning

and I always think that Blade Runner but there are so many films to choose. That's the first one i think of i think that's the first one a lot of dPs think of that that film had so much amazing atmosphere and costumes honestly yeah um but i think that film definitely has the uh yeah like i said the atmosphere it because even you know sometimes i watch that film and i'm like i'm starting to get bored but you know maybe the pacing's a little weird but like you can't beat the world building in that film.

But it's so clever because all the costumes are back to the 40s. Yeah, it's a futuristic. I always think you go backwards. I mean, I'm sure you've heard this before. You go backwards if you want to do futuristic. Because people have to identify with the clothes. Because if you start doing the old silver foil, you've lost it, I would think. Right.

No, that actually makes total sense. I hadn't thought about that. Like, if you want to make something super futuristic, it comes off as cheap. easy if you don't ground it in in something here yeah yeah um you know i was looking i was looking at your i mdb and i was excited because uh you actually worked on a show that uh some people might be surprised as one of my favorite shows uh but you did the first season of doctor who the reboot yeah and that that was that was five of us sat in a room say and we watched the old Doctor Who's of like the 80s, you know, when it really lost the plot.

And we were sitting there going, and I remember people saying, because I'd done a really serious political drama before. And then they said, what are you doing? I stole the reboot Doctor Who and people like, are you sure? And I went, yeah, because I treated every episode like a drama. And it was so exciting to sit with Russell and Phil. And we just sat there. And of course we didn't realize it was going to be so popular. But it was so exciting to do it because in those days it was just me and makeup, no prosthetics. We kind of did it together. And I mean, it was a long time ago now, about 20 years or whatever. But it's nice to hear that it's one of your favorite programs, but it was exciting to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually the thing that me and my

girlfriend first met on, you know, we met on one of those apps. And her little thingy was like, you know, I can't remember. But she said she liked Doctor Who. I was like, ooh, me too. And then. Oh, that's really sweet. That's really sweet. And it was like four years ago.

Oh, my God. It's funny. I told her, I was like, I'm going to talk to the costume designer for the first season. And just without skipping a beat, she goes, I love Rose's giant pants. Yeah. Because the weird thing about. rose. She had to start from somewhere like an ordinary girl and then she got more and more super hero. And Billy did get more and more slimmer, actually, and more refined and physical.

But I remember on the very first day of filming that, we were in a disused hospital and Chris Eccleson was chasing a pig in a space suit down the corridor. And after the tape went, I've made it. I've made it to Dr. Who. This is what it's like. I'm chasing. a pig in this Russian space suit and yeah we all just laughed but yeah we didn't know it was going to be so big but it was brilliant to work on I loved it really loved it I was I was wondering because like yeah when it when it the reboot happened no one was necessarily looking forward yeah so did that did that lower the stress level or were you able to kind of go into that and and take risks and do your own thing or or did the weight of what was formerly a very

formative show for people kind of still hit you. Well, it was great because Russell gave me a lot, the writer Russell today just gave me a lot of freedom. Like I would do like a portfolio for each episode. And like one episode, we had, like it said, a queen and her two aides in white cloaks. And I said, well, let's make her a tree queen. And let's, I just got all the stuff in. I wanted like samurai.

Let's make them bodyguards. And he just let me kind of. of do what I wanted to do which was very brave of him really and I mean it was quite stressful for a year at one point you had like four directors and they would like you were doing so many episodes at the same time and as a designer I usually start not on episode one if something huge is coming up in episode four I start my prep on that so that by the time you start running into it. But we were allowed to do a lot of things because no one really was that interested, to be

honest, and they were like, oh, it's going to be the creaky old wobbly walls and people in foam and Christ knows what. But it's like big, I base that on like a 1950 space suit, you know, and there was trying to make it look at, I try to treat it with as much respect as a film and a drama to make it believe of what. not just treat it like as a kids program, which it kind of dissolved into in the 80s. And I apologize if I offend anyone out there, but it, you know, it did. I think they agree.

Yeah. You know, what was the, speaking of leather, what was the kind of decision to make Eccleston, his, you know, very undoctory to just be in a leather, you know, not a biker jacket, but yeah. The thing with that is it's all about the person who plays it and the character. And when I met Chris, I thought, well, yeah, you're Northern. And he had very a strange silhouette. And the Doctor Who's before had been very fanciful, very colourful, almost like a, well, like a comedy. So I wanted, the thing about Chris is very northern and realistic and gritty.

So I thought, well, let's do, let's keep it basic, you know. And I did, and this is a bit of confession, I did make him a leather coat. And we were doing the run-up, and about four days before filming, I kept looking at this coat, and I tried it on him, and something I'll never do again. I looked it, and I whipped it off, and I went, no, that ain't going to work. Now, that isn't what you do to an actor just before a big shoot. Oh, sure.

He just stared at me and literally went white. And I said, no, we've got to start again. He said, we've got four days. So I started again, and I actually found it was a World War II naval jacket. It was German, I think, actually. Because he's meant to be 900 years old, and it was just a very, very battered jacket I found. And I said, that's what you're going to use. And then we tried it on, and then it all made sense.

But there's a tip, don't ever do that to your league man. I'll never do that again. It was horrific. He was just like dissolved. Blessing. You know, that does bring up a good, you didn't design the Cybermen and stuff, right? No, they were from way back in the like this. Because they kept getting updated, but maybe that was just more than the reason.

But you bring up a good point about how costume informs character. You know, I've heard like one anecdote was that like, oh, you know, what's his name? Tarantino will put like receipts in the pockets from like where this character got their breakfast coffee or what you know and I'm wondering kind of do the conversations between you and the how much conversation is happening between you and the actors like are they telling you what their character wants or are you kind of informing them or what's the sort of symbiotic relationship there well on most programs or most films you know you meet them and I'm always looking at them

and I ask them what do they think the character is because 99% of it is how they're going to walk in it, how are they going to portray? And I always say like, I can tell on camera if you don't like this costume, it's in your eyes and I'm not going to chase you around a truck in the morning saying wear it because you're not going to wear it. So it has to come from them.

And I, especially on The Witcher or joining it, I kept saying to what's the character, what do you do, what thing? So for me, if I, I can get as much out of them as possible, then you kind of work with them and you kind of, you will get the best out of them because they feel part of it.

I mean, that is how it should work. Sometimes it doesn't, because sometimes, if I'm honest, some actors only see themselves. I mean, I put my head on the line, but they won't get past that character. And that's when you have to kind of keep saying, this is the character.

So it's a kind of working relationship. you know and usually it works really well because they're playing the part as I say to them you're wearing it not me so you've got to be comfortable in it really yeah the that brings up a good point like the sort of vanity of an actor you know whoever does that could I could see how that could often get in the way of them wanting you know especially if they're supposed to play an unattractive character you're like all right here's your burlap sack and they're like it very rarely happens because they've accepted the role they understand it but it i won't laugh it can it can creep in but you have to kind of quickly stamp on that one if you're lucky

um but then you've also got to understand there's a line there's a line i find in a fitting when you know you're not going to win and you just think well do you know what i'll just have to go with it You've got to be realistic, you know, it's not life and death. It's like, okay, if they want to be like that, fine. And you just have to trust, you know, you're not going to force them into it. Yeah. Well, you experience that as like a DP and especially like a colorist, like certain actors, the way it was described to me is you need to do your friend a favor.

You know, sometimes you, that's a good description out a little bit, you know, fix sometimes I need to do them a little bit of a favor so I can imagine that that extends to costume and especially makeup. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point and a good way of phrasing it, yeah. Let's see, what else I have?

Oh, no, I just, it was in my head. Where did it go? Wasn't that? I have notes. Oh, you know, Production can be really stressful, obviously, but having seen like behind the scenes footage of props being built or costuming rooms or anything, that seems like a wonderfully like collaborative, probably still stressful, but like a collaborative sort of, that seems like the most fun to me, the actual building of the, you know, costumes and props and whatever in question. Is that the case or is that all just still nightmare just like production? It's amazing. I mean, I'm at work now and we're just making this outfit and I've just, you can literally just go and choose those fabrics and then you talk through it and I've just been in the workroom and I've just seen another outfit being made.

And I've been doing this a long time and I still get that immense thrill of, oh my God, it, you know, it's exciting. You can just, if you're given that license to do certain things and And it's just brilliant. And then we've just been filming a really big scene for about a month. And they're all in one really special outfit, all the extras. It's all been made. It's massive. And it's just a thrill to see.

And it's like on season two, every time I put Henry into that armour, every day I was like, geez, you know, you don't get much better than this. I mean, I know I've talked about my own work, but he wore it so well. I mean, God. Yeah. He's, he's, you know, not bad to look at.

How many costumes are you making, like, per, I'm sure, like, extras are only getting, you know, one or two, but, like, how many costumes are you making per character that all need to match? Well, on season two, Henry had eight sets of armor for the stages of breakdown

and for stunts. So it's eight, there were like little pods. of him all up the truck. All the characters in The Witcher have stunt doubles, doubles because we're quite often do the end of the fight and the loads of blood, loads of monsters.

I was asked this the other day and I should actually think about it. There are hundreds. There are hundreds, like with the Nelfgard armour. We have, I had 60 made for season two and with Carheer,

Amon, who plays the winged helmet soldier. I mean, there are loads, but they're just brilliant to be able to be allowed to do it and go into that different world. So there are, I might even say a thousand, there are loads. Yeah. I just imagine like, I've said this before on this podcast, but like I'm a DP, but I realized very late in life probably when I was like 27 that I should have gotten into props. Or visual effects. Because I like working with my hands. I like building things.

I like... You've answered it there. So why didn't you do that? I didn't know it was an option, which is funny because a lot of people don't think that even being a DP is really an option or working in film in general. But yeah, in film school, it was like, you know, you had to pick a job and it was like, you know,

director, writer, editor, DP. Oh. Oh, well, come on, be a D.O.P. That's pretty good. Oh, no, I love it. It's definitely, and it's like the only, you know, it's the only thing going on in my head all the time. But it's, it's been positive in that I don't take things super personally if someone doesn't like my cinematography work. Because it's not my first passion, right? It's like my second. Oh, that. that helps

and now I ask you what is your one of your favorite films then um so this will be a retread for anyone who listens a lot but um the matrix was really big for me growing up why um the for that well a it was the just the fantasy of the whole thing

and you know the that film is is tailor made for a teenage boy I mean let's be honest a lot of guns everyone's got cool leather jackets and stuff the music you know but you know the production design especially like the Nebuchadnezzar looks really really cool and all that techno stuff was just and obviously the effects

and that's great so I'm targeting that one too Fight Club was one Willie Wonka in the Chocolate Factory The original? The original? Yeah that one was big for me I should hope so the original yeah yeah yeah I can understand that and it's all kind of you know Star Wars obviously and that was the thing that like I figured out again late in life was it was cooler to make the lightsaber than to film it like I found myself go ahead so do you do any props now uh sometimes sometimes I you know

we'll build little things for myself but I think that tinkering makes its way into other avenues, you know, ringing up cameras, especially, like, or, I have a 3D printer, you know, making stuff around the house. It's just that, whatever that compulsion is to manipulate things, just kind of goes into everything else, you know. Oh, that's interesting. That's really, that's a really good view to be a deal, and prop making. That's, that's that covering it all, isn't it, really? I suppose. I mean, it makes, it makes, uh, I suppose it does make me more interested in the whole because prop making and, and production design and costume design are all kind of related.

And since, yeah, and since I have an interest in that, like I, this is something that's probably not great is I will, uh, nitpick, you know, which is not my, not my job, but that doesn't quite look, you know, but it's, I shouldn't be doing that. That's not my department. No, no, I mean, that's important, you know. It's like when I started working with Romaine, he said, oh, show me the kind of colors and the, and we did camera tests and things, and you should really kind of flash it out because I can't think, color of anything worse than spending all your time doing costumes

and then you hear a heart rendering screen from behind the camera. No, we don't want to go down that path, so you kind of flash it out, really. Yeah. Actually, jumping back to the Doctor Who thing, the lighting in that show was aggressive. Oh, yeah. And that was, God bless him, a real old timer, DOP. And he, yeah, he was very particular about how it was going to look. And it weren't shifting. Yeah. I was talking to another DP who had worked on Doctor Who, but it was one of the slightly more recent seasons. and he was saying like having watched the reboot stuff and he said I think he knew the guy I think he said something similar to that like yeah especially having to do the tape going back to the tape idea I remember I did shuffle up once and kind of politely said is

there any way and the look I got I went no it's okay I won't bother I just turned around no I'm not even going to go there I'm not going to chance me on that's how it's going to look Okay, I'll work. And I do remember changing quite a few things to make it work because you can't always win and you think, well, I've got to do something else quickly. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh, I did want to, on the props thing, again, I jump around everywhere. I did want to give some of my friends credit. So an outlet I have is two of my friends work for now three of them work for legacy effects. So they're doing all of the, you know, Star Wars and Guardians of the Galaxy and that must be fantastic I get to live like and a friend of mine works for prop store of London so I get to sort of vicariously live through them and get the inside scoop my my friend Carrie made baby Yoda's ears that's a well claim to fame well that is a claim to fame and what I'm going to say to you when you ask me about what films and you said about costumes in cinemas One of my passions is I've always collected lobby cards and film posters. And I've got the Blade Runner and I've got Yoda on the wall with his ears. And next time I see him, I'll give him a little tap. But yeah, that's great.

Oh, I like that. That's a good story. You know, I was asking, I was working for this Michelin Star restaurant for a minute, shooting some stuff. And I was asking the bar manager, like, what is it about? top-tier food or top-tier drinks programs, like, who sets that tone? You know, the same thing with fashion is, like, who decides, you know, those wacky runway shows that they do that no one's ever going to buy these clothes? Like, who decides that that's the high fashion?

Is that just kind of in the ether? Or what is that? Well, I hope this is the right answer. But when I was doing fashion and I was pushing everything as much as I could at college, I suddenly realized that they do those theatrical things for the runway and then by the time it hits the shops it's so watered down that's how I survived at college because I pushed it as far as I could and they were like yeah yeah we can see that later on died down a bit

but I think it's the way everyone just everyone can have an opinion and everyone can take what they like from it so you can go wild or you could go for the water down version so it's a strange one fashion I mean, it comes around. You know, I remember when I first started filming in the 80s and I said, God, this period, it's contemporary, it's going to come back and haunt us. And, you know, those power suits and that.

At the time, I was like, yo. But I think it was the last distinctive look for fashion, I think. I mean, it's, I say years ago now, but you know instantly when you're watching an 80s film, don't you you it comes towards you costume wise yeah very strong is there I'm sure this is the case but has costuming change sort of over the history of film I obviously it has but like I suppose better question is in what ways has costuming changed over there's have costumes become more elaborate because you know I'll see like films from the 50s or

something and you know like a sword and sandal films and they do look very we got these from the Universal Costume Department. You saw these in four other films. There is no difference. Well, that's an interesting question, because I was watching the other day, I watched Ivanhoe, which I watched as a kid, and I remember thinking, God, God damn it.

It is so brilliant. I watched it, and I was shocked. It was so just made, you could almost see the pins in it. It was so new. It was so comical in a way, you know, George Saunders was wearing his output. I thought, how they got him in that, I do not know. It was just, you know, Liz Taylor looked amazing,

but she had a corset on from the 50s. And it's like, I just think you see it in different eyes. And I think, for me, I think costume is more, people will go for more like the realism now and make it dirty. You look back on those films. I mean, not every film. I mean, I was just thinking another favorite film of mine is Night of the Hunter.

that's a good one and um but i think people are more i don't know they seem to be more braver you know to make it look realistic and simple but then each period had a different look you know the 30s was to get away from the depression the 50s was that bright you know and the technicolor and all that came in so i suppose each decade has that certain look well and it makes me think too because like if you watch older films a lot of times there's stuff you know maybe not a boom in the shot but maybe there are pins in the costume because they no one was no one expected DVD you know it was going to it was going to go by in a second there's plenty of shots in movies where you could tell the DP went that's going to be on screen for one second let's just get it out of here and no one's

going to know and then cut to 40 years later we've got blu-ray and we can pause it you know and the continuity is shocking i was watching something the other day and i thought oh my god not only have they crossed the line but they're kind of like what the other side of the room and i thought she's over there and we thought as you're right they were banged out those B movies they were going to be seen at the cinema and no one ever thought oh they never even dreamt up with but now when you watch it with different eyes you're like they really didn't give a damn about continuity of certain scenes, but if they worked, you know, they look great. Yeah. You know, that brings up a thought. There's a, do you know, Adam Savage from the Mythbusters?

No, I'm afraid of. So he worked, is a very popular American show, educational show, but he's got his own YouTube channel now. And he worked in visual effects for ILM and worked on the 7th. First couple Star Wars is the new ones, like 1 through 3 and the new Matrix is the first two or the two and three. But he's a big proponent of cosplay and making props and stuff. And he has like, speaking of Blade Runner, like all these Blade Runner blasters. And he was like, yeah, I had, you know, he went to the movie a bunch of times just to try to figure out how to make Deckard's pistol. And it was awful. Didn't look right at all, but then, you know, VHS comes out and he can pause it and kind of.

And I'm wondering, have you seen, because I've seen plenty of Witcher cosplay. Have you seen any that's kind of impressed you or anything like that that you're stoked on? I'll tell you something. I was very lucky they took me, Andrew, and we went with Lauren the showrunner to the launch of Witcher 2 in Luca at the Comic Con last October. Now, I'd never been to a Comic Con and we walked into this lovely Italian village and there was this massive, in the square, massive queue and I went, oh, what's that? And they went, oh, they're going to see you to talk, you know, all the fans and that. And I was walking along with Kim, who played Vesimir in it, Kim from Killing Eve.

And we were walking along. And I suddenly turned to look around and there was a man dressed exactly in the costume that Kim were worn and we it was that oh I was just like listening around and they were all dressed in the costumes and it was the most weirdest thing in the world and I thought oh bless them they've really really liked this and I've had lots of emails and things about you know what color is this what color is that I'm making that and I always reply because if they're going to put their heart and soul on it God bless them but it was a different world I didn't know it existed I really didn't It's there is entire replica prop forum is one speaking specifically of props, but just the, for those who want like the ultimate and accuracy, good Lord, people are so specific. I mean, free screaming thing is just analyzing for days. I've seen people try to figure out what lens something was shot on to get the dimensions right. Oh, because if a lens is too wide, the suit will look too big or whatever.

so they'll like figure out you know okay so on you know oh they shot the whole film on a 40 mill okay so we can figure out the distortion on that so we know that's not two feet wide that's actually a foot and a half or you know my god that is serious the and it's i mean it's such cosplay especially and for something like the witcher where it's so um you know steeped in obviously the video game and and fan culture and stuff um it's a really fun way to I don't personally do it, but it's a fun, it's clearly a fun way to express how much you love something and, you know, you can't act in the world, but you can dress like it, you know, and that's, and it's becoming more acceptable is very, or accepted rather, is very cool, I think. It's an interesting thing because when I started it, I made a huge, a big thing about not looking at the game, not looking at anything that, or and quite a few cast would turn up and they lurched towards me with some kind of artwork and I'd go no no no no no and I refused and I'd have meetings with Laura and the showrunner and I'd say I'm not going to look at it but it's by design anywhere near it I didn't want to because once you look at it like yourself once you sing something it goes it burns into those retinas and it's there it's at the back of that so even now on Witcher 3

they say oh I don't you know we might you know a director will come in and say I've seen this and a game and I'm like no and it you're not being rude you're just like I I don't want to repeat it on the screen but it is interesting how how how passionate people are as you say to get it right for them are the uh does I think I saw this somewhere but maybe I was wrong when I was doing research. Does CD Project Red, like, own the costumes anyway? Like, would you guys have to get permission from the game studio to remake the costumes? Well, that's why I wouldn't want to remake a look that's already done.

That's why I avoided it. And I remember saying to someone, oh, I'm not going to look at the game. And they went, yeah, all right. And that was the end of the conversation. Gizzy for us. Yeah. Yeah, they did come up and pat me on the back the other day, marketing. Because we were talking about marketing.

And I said, oh, look, someone said, have you seen this? And I went, what is it? And they kind of looked to me, like, oh, poor girl, don't go out much. I said, look, I don't watch the game. I'm not watching the game. And they went, oh, and they did say, thank you. And I thought, well, that's nice. But now, after talking to you, I realized why they were saying thank you.

Yeah, oh, it's, oh, sure, yeah. Well, and it's just such an enormous game that, like, who knows? and there's so many mods like if you were to do your own research maybe you're finding some fan made thing that someone injected into the game and you're like let's make this and everyone goes what the fuck is that

yeah yeah someone did show me a picture the other day and I went if you think I'm having that no you know because so because in games and fantasy you can just draw or make up anything if you're going to put that on a human

or a person that's a different different world. A big part, which I'm sure you've ran into with Geryl, is models, game models, this happens, I've noticed this with cosplayers and prop makers and stuff, they can clip into their own what's called clipping. So like if the armor, the armor doesn't have to exist in reality. So it can move maybe like in here, let's say under the arm. It can just move straight through the character model. You know, they can, they can, because no, no one will ever see it. Ah, well, that's interesting because when, um, when I met Henry, who I worked really closely

for the armor, I, he sat down and he spoke about the armor for season one. And I went, okay, right, okay. And so the big thing was to make the armor so that Henry could put his hand behind his back and get his sword. And that thing was a really big thing. And also for him to move and get in and out of it. And that's why I brought the buckles in, so we just, he could be released and it was like second skin and I remember we were doing one shot I don't know episode six or something

and then he said and I'll put my arm up and I'll get my sword and they were like yeah and and I was just like if you knew how important that was to both us and we were just like these arms up and they were like yeah all right don't get too excited we're not going to do that shot no you don't realize because before he couldn't do anything and it was uh that was a good moment but that sounds weird about the armor that they can move it around well it's just because in video games you do what like yeah it doesn't you know he can go like this and he can have five massive metal plates you know going down his arm and it won't physics doesn't need to apply you know this is more important than yeah you know whatever um but i could see you know because

some people will like get going back to cosplay some people will get game models and 3D print them or whatever and then they're wearing it and they're like well this doesn't work, you know? They're just locked in this position. I do remember when we were filming it, a couple of my team came up, they had their phone and they went, we're not sure if you're going to laugh or cry. And I went, what is it? And they showed me somewhere abroad. They, I think it was a cost, but they made it already, the armour. And I just looked, no, let's put that away. We're not going to go there. But then I thought, oh, how sweet. Someone's actually tried to do it.

But it's weird. I find it hard. Well, we'll just put your email and home phone number on the show. So my girlfriend, who I spoke about earlier, is actually a professional dancer. And she teaches dance and stuff like that. I went to school for it. And when I told her I was interviewing you, she mentioned something that I didn't even realize. She said when she was in college, they didn't have like a costuming workbook.

There was no like textbooks or resources. So she had to make her own. There's a binder somewhere over here where she had to make her own costumeing resource. I assume that must have been the same for you. Yeah. I mean, because it was fashion, you know, I know it sounds really naive, but I couldn't even sew when I got on this course. I mean, which whenever I was in the third year and we'd have people coming to look around, I'd just pull them aside and say, just learn to sew, because your life is going to be hell if you can't.

Because I used to, you know, it was the classic thing, used to do designs. And then they say, yeah, and how did you get in it, Lucy? You know, and I'm like, oh. So there was, yeah, we just do a drawing up. It's a game model problem, yeah. There was a lot of that in the first year. but yeah you just had to it was a tough course

because it was fashion design 25 us and each year they would cut us by half and they said you know only 10 of you would be in the third year even though you got on the course for a degree

so it was brutal but then I think that taught me a lot because when you do start when there are moments in costume when people can really like costume I find always easy target on a film set because everyone can have a view

and quite often if an actor goes off on one about the costume it's nothing to do about the costume they just want to have a moan and on a serious note I think being at college that taught me to have an inner core to kind of hopefully ride it out because if you're a DIP

they can't they can't criticize your lenses or your light but they have the monitor now everyone's got the big 24 inch monitor they're staring at it flicking those switches, I've grown, but I think with costume, because, you know, you can dress someone on a trailer by the time they've gone to the set, past the sparks and that, you know, someone just has to say, oh, you look a bit lardy and, you know, whatever, and that, and by the time the actor's got to the set, they're like, get me out of it. Right. But, yeah, yeah, yeah, you, as your girlfriend said, you just have to kind of get your own resources and work at it yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there, you know, you said you're working on the third season now. Ieration is something that is so important to any artist. But I imagine that, you know, once you're in the production, it's locked in. You can't iterate any further, but I'm sure you learn a lot. Is there anything going into this third season that you, not obviously, if you don't, can't share stuff, that's fine. But like generalized, anything that you've sort of.

iterated about any of the costumes that, or maybe problems that you run into that you had to solve from the first, from the second season to the third season? Mobility or look or anything like that. When you say problems, those are the kind of things you need to, you need to thrash out in the fitting. And hopefully, when you've done the costume, there aren't those problems. because if you've got a problem then it's not going to work on camera

so no I can't think I can't think of anything that's weird its ugly head yet we haven't finished yet so they are famous last words I'll walk out and there'll be a heart ranger and scream from the set

but no I think you always have to have that that mindset that you can always change stuff and never be set in. It's like when you go on location or you go to a set, you know,

first thing you do, we've done your research, is like you've got to be willing as a costume designer to suddenly change something. Or the director or the actor might go, do you know what, today?

Not feeling it. You've got to be able to move pretty quick and accept it because things will change. They really will. And I remember in an interview you had done, like you had mentioned like, oh, where are those elixirs coming from?

And he was like, it's magic and you're like how about we put them on your boot i was like i just i mean poor henry i grilled him but i was like where'd they come from he said oh yeah and i and i said well they've got to come from somewhere so he said well why don't i have something on my leg and then we did like that kind of bandit kind of we made a holster and that was great because he had so much going on top and he had the boots he actually leveled it so that we weren't together on that and then on this season there's a different approach to the elixir because it's a different look but i'm not going to say but um it is everything should be practical you know

he should be able to look like he can fight in that armor you should know where those elixias come from otherwise why wear something that's not really armor really are there are there uh any sort of this is the thing that kind of gets me excited about about costumes of props and stuff is uh sort of maybe not witness marks but um anything is there anything in the costumes that you've kind of small touches that do not get camera time but you're like i i put that there and that's for me oh there is something i did it the other day i couldn't stop laughing i thought no one's going to notice by me oh what was it oh it was something oh i can't think isn't that annoying but i remember sitting there well standing there well standing there

on set going, that's my little joke. Oh, I'm going to have to get back to you at some point. It was really annoying, but I can't think what it was. Damn. But yeah, you do those things and you think no one's ever going to pick up on it. But as you say now with, you know, DVDs and that, people watch stuff really closely, don't they? So you have to be careful. well and i'm sure that the the the cosplayers that are super into accuracy you know if they if they get wind like oh yeah you know the costume designer put their signature on the inside of one panel it's like we got to get it find it right you know you're uh obviously nominated for the emmy for this show well deserved um but are there is such a massive thing i can't believe it but thank you

very much. I mean, it's they're dope-looking costumes. But I'm wondering, is there any any shows or movies that you watched recently that you thought did an excellent job with the costuming that kind of impressed you or maybe inspired you a little bit? I'm just trying to think.

Unfortunately, when you are working on something like this, you literally, it's 24 hours. Sure. And I'm trying to think I can't think at the moment I think when I finish Just yours Yeah

I sound dreadful, didn't it? Oh my God But no, I'm just just thinking No, I can't think I need to When I finish filming I need to go out And back to the cinema Well, you know that is We were just talking about that

me and another DP, whatever, it's going to come out of order for whoever's listening anyway. But we were talking about the importance of the break. You know, like to work yourself, you know, this is a job where you're going to be working in some cases 12 hour days, 14 hour days, whatever, for an extended period of time. And it's so easy to want to just jump to the next gig. But the break thing is so important, A, to refresh you, but also as part of flow state. you know, the recovery period is crucial to getting back and doing your best work,

or else, you know, it's diminishing returns. You'll start to do worse work as you go forward. Yeah, I think you're right. I really do. I mean, I've been very lucky that I've kind of gone from Witcher to a sequel to Witcher because I love it. I really do love it. But I do think I agree with you. You do, you need to stop, even if it's for only a couple of weeks, you just need to get

to get out of that bubble and get into the real world and then realize how lucky you are in that bubble and jump back in it. But I think, yeah, it's really important to take a break and have a breather and look at things differently. Because like you say, when you asked me, have I thought of any other films?

And I suddenly thought, no, I've literally been doing this because of COVID quite a few years, that continuous. So it's very healthy. you should do you should do is uh are there any non-film uh hobbies that you have that you that you enjoy i'm afraid to say gosh is that that's me i remember years ago someone asked me that and i just looked at them like they had two heads i went what you want about they said what do you do at the weekends and i was like i work what do you do what do you mean i've got and see films what you want about but um no i i just um that i just just just love this yeah

Luckily, I've been a snowboarder my whole life, so I have like that in me where I need to get out in nature. Thank God it's nature and I didn't get stuck on professional video gaming like I was as a kid. Oh my God. Oh, snowboarding's great. That's great to do that. Yeah. That's a big. That's a bit of them, isn't it?

Yeah. Well, and it's, I'm sure you've experienced snow. Being, it's that quiet, especially living in L.A., you know, just the dichotomy, between the quiet of the mountains and how noise you hear is very important. Damn, I had more questions, but we're kind of coming up on time. I'll ask this, because I did want to know.

When you're designing groups of people, you know, cultures or whatever, what kind of work is going into that, like, sort of research or ideation or whatever? Like, how are you thinking about creating different, groups, you know, different cultures, different, are you drawing from reality? Are you just trying to think of like one or two things that bind them together? You know, how does that work for you? Well, we were doing that today.

We started one block and it was meant to be the desert and everything. And we were dressing them and I'd done, we did go abroad and I took a load of photos of the local crew with all their turbans and copied them. and we were setting it today and they were dressing them and they were like, I mean, it's very hot here anyway and I was like, no, no, no, no. And they were meant to be inside this kind of scruffy old trappers bar

and I was like, no, no, no, got to be open, it's meant to be hot, it's meant to be hot. And they said, yeah, we know it's hot. And I went in the story, you know, and so all the colors, textures and they had turbans on and all that. And then we went in on the set and they'd lit it

and you would think you were in the desert. And I thought, yeah, that's why. And so I do a lot of research on things like that, you know, to get, you always follow the script. You always see what those worlds are. And because the Witcher has those different worlds, you know, whether it's hot or it's cold or you always have to push that in the costume, even though, you know, I had someone dressed in furs and things like that the other day. And they were like, oh, but it's hot. And I'm saying, no, no, no, no. when you're on the, you know, it's getting into that world.

I know it sounds very obvious, but it's really important to do those costumes to tell the story. And so, yeah, all the kind of looks are really worked out through the set design as well. That's really important to see what they're going to, like when we did Care Morgan, the Witch's Home in season two, it was going to be very dark, it had to be very dark leathers and blacks. well, only Henry's black, gerald, but browns and textures, but then also when we had the sex workers come in, I wanted then to be like oriental and kind of bright colors, but all very worn out. So creating those worlds in that set, that's where you have to push all those different looks to make it look like a different world, if you know what I mean, if it makes sense. Yeah, and actually that's kind of a part two of a question I asked earlier, but, What are you doing to costumes to have them read on camera appreciably?

Because, like, leather could be a very flat surface. You know, it's, it's, are you texturing the leather in any way? Because with anything in film, you kind of have to do 115% to make it look like 95%, you know? Yeah, you're right. I mean, a lot of the fabrics, we dye up a lot of the fabrics. So I was just choosing a fabric a minute ago. And we do a lot of dying and a lot of breaking down. And like Henry's armour, when he had it,

it was like he picked it up. And so it had like a claw mark. And you just really hammer it out so that it can be picked up. And I think it's as we were talking earlier, making sure all the costume these days, everything looks like it's lived in. I mean, you say the Matrix, but that was super shiny.

But then that was a super, it was just unique, wasn't it? And in fact, I was talking about a long leather coat the other day and I turned around and I went, nah, the Matrix has done that. I can't do it. It's a certain look which still goes to the back of your head and you think, it's been done. But yeah, it's just creating that world and things like that. Actually, that brings up an interesting point. I wouldn't call this sci-fi. The fantasy realm has had some really standout productions.

You know, obviously your Lord of the Rings is the main one. Do you have to sort of mentally avoid looking like any of those productions? Or does that not quite come into play as the, you know, big leather coat is pretty specific. Or, you know, giant red cape might be a little too obvious for something, you know, if you're making a serial film. But yeah, do you have to kind of like avoid other things? Or do you borrow even from those ones? I think it must be one of the. only people who didn't watch Game of Thrones and so many people. Oh God, so many people.

I interviewed the DP yesterday. We talked for three hours and at the very end I have to go, dude, I haven't seen it. Oh my God. That's very brave, is you? But so many. We were friends by then. It was all right. But you, I mean, obviously I've seen images, you know, of the news, but you try not to look too closely. Yeah, because someone the other day said, oh, I a costume like this and I went it's from another program and I just looked to them and I said no I'm not going to do that it's done so you really do have to veer away you have to as people who go oh you've just done that from so and so whether you're whether it's intentional or not you know you have to be really careful because they're so iconic these looks from game of

and others and Star Wars, you just have to kind of get around it because you don't want to copy something. You don't want to, no, you don't want, that's not designing. That's this. And it will, it might happen now and then, but purely by mistake. And then you have to change it quickly. Well, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, it's probably why you're nominated for awards. Because it's, you've got original thoughts coming out of you. I'm lucky. Very lucky. Very lucky. Very lucky. Yeah, well, we're coming up one time, so I'll let you go here pretty quick, but I like to end each podcast with the same two questions. So the first one being, is there a piece of advice

or resource or something that you either read or received that has stuck with you over the years that has helped you throughout your career? A piece of advice? If I could give a piece of advice, sure is don't ever give up just follow follow your dreams now how corny does that sound but you know what just just keep at it and you know when people knock you down or say you know just keep going because you'll get there yeah uh and the second question perhaps a little easier uh or not um if uh if the witch if you're programming a double feature which i guess is hard for a television show but if you're programming a double feature and the witcher was one block what do you make the second block god that's a hard question oh my lord that is a hard one i suppose you go for completely

opposite don't you you could yeah but what would you because if people were watching the witcher they'd want to watch something similar wouldn't they maybe see this is the great thing it's it's your double feature you can program it however you like i was talking to speaking of blade runner i was talking to jeff cronan with uh who his dad shot it and uh i asked him he shot being the ricardo's and i was like what's the other film and he goes uh alien versus predator oh my god i love the i love predator it's a film you should love but i love it every time it makes me laugh um oh my god oh yeah That's a good choice. I don't know. I really don't know. That's a really difficult question to end on, isn't it?

What would be your two? Well, I haven't made a movie. What would you do with The Witcher then? What would you put with it? Because that is the ultimate question, right? Do you do the same thing or do you do a different thing? Because it would be easy to say Game of Thrones? You know, what would be, let's see. I would do, you know, those armor, did you ever see the Chronicles or Riddick? Yeah.

That was a breeze. That was a, that was a, yeah. So yeah, it's a movie. But I will say, I really loved the costumes and the props in that film. The necromonger armor looks really cool. And so the armor that you made for the, because you switched up, there's like a group of, of blanking on their names, but the... The Nelfgard.

Yeah. They're like bronze setup. Yeah. It was so important. I did like a gothic. It's so important to make them a stronger force than season one. And as I said, with Amen, his car here, and they had to be believable that they would literally come and kill you.

And that's why that armor was so important for them. Yeah, that was good. So having the through line be the armor, I will pick Chronicles of Riddick as the other one. The costumes were great in that. Yeah. I actually have, you know, his big, swinging knives that he has. Oh, my God. I emailed, so I was, again, teenage boy.

That movie, I was like, yeah, fucking cool. I emailed the director. I emailed the director, David Tui, and I go, hey, how did you make those knives or whatever? And he got back to me in like 30 minutes and was like, oh, yeah, he was like, they're literally exacto blades, like exacto ergo handles, and this is the knife. And there you go. I asked him about the costume. He was like, I don't know, I'm not a costume designer.

But this is, I know how we made the knives. That's such a typical answer. When people would go on costume, they're like, I don't know. but regarding props. Oh, that's brilliant that he got back to you. I still have them. I made them when I was 15 and, yeah, still on them. So David Toey, cool guys.

All right, well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. That was a lot of fun and I certainly learned a lot. I absolutely loved it. And I probably said loads of things that will get me in trouble and people think I'm but I don't care. I've really enjoyed it. It's been fantastic. Thank you so much.

for asking me, and you're so interesting. Do you get interviewed yourself? No, I have not. Well, a girlfriend should interview you because there's a lot there's a lot there that needs to be told to the world. I think she gets enough of me talking. We live together, so she just gets an earful of this all the time. Oh, lucky girl.

Thank you. Thank you so much. And, yeah, it's great. yeah well uh congrats again and uh good luck with the rest of uh season three oh well thank you very much lovely to talk to you take care frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me kennie mcmillan and distributed by pro video coalition our theme song is written and performed by mark pelly and the eth-at-art matbox logo was designed by nate truax of trachs branding company you can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to pro video coalition dot com or you

YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.