Frame & Reference Podcast - 72: "Ozark" Production Designer David Bomba

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

On this weeks episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with production designer David Bomba about his work on "Ozark." David is best known for his work on films like “Walk the Line��� and “Mudbound” as well as the the series “Godless.” Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with another non-DP in the form of David Bomba, who was the production designer on Ozark and was recently nominated for the Emmy for that. category. David's awesome. He, like Lucinda Wright of last episode, phoned in from his office. He's currently on a shoot, so really appreciated him taking the time out of his busy day to speak with me. The man is full of joy. We have a great conversation about Ozark, about his other work, about, you know, production design in general, all the usual stuff you get from How many production designers have I spoken to now? Three?

Three amazing ones, I believe. And no bad ones. If you, you know what? A guarantee when you come on this podcast is that you're guaranteed to be good. No, I've never had one dud. So, yay for us. Anyway, yeah, I think you're going to love this one. So go ahead and give it a listen.

Here's my conversation with David Womba. The way that we usually start the podcast is simply by asking how you got started creatively. Were you always a creative, like, kid growing up? Did you kind of get into it some other way? You know, a lot of, well, I was going to say a lot of DP start as like weird stuff like architects or, you know, environmental engineers, but architect might actually work for you. Architecture is my background, but it started well before college. And when you said your first design instinct, it's like I was always rearranging my room, always rearranging the room, as long as, as early as I can remember.

And having my mom, your mom, come upstairs and check it out. And she'd come up, oh, you know, you're so creative and always really, really, really supportive of, she was supportive of everything we did. but um and then like christmas time and Halloween you know you decorate your house and I decorated my room as well and put you know stuff in the curtains I um I almost burned the house well twice I almost burn the house down once at Halloween with the um I wanted to see fire come out of the jackal in her mouth so I took it upstairs the morning after and it's like you know not don't play with fire well took it in the bathroom and stepped it with newspaper and it's because it's in the shower I mean I can just put it out and and it's like you know and woke the whole house up, it was a big to-do. And then another time, Christmas used the, we put, like, garlands up around the door. And that was always a big family project. And we made, there was a competition in our neighborhood for Christmas decorations. Or not a competition, but it was just kind of a thing to change their decorations.

And some of the neighborhood actually, you know, was like the garden club, but we weren't up. But anyway, the family are, I had three sisters and mom and dad, we made these banners together. And they were, you know, like burlap, you know, burlap banners that would hang on the front door and like angels and trumpets and, you know, joy, joy or something like that. And so right after Christmas, it's New Year's, right? And so around the door. This is making me think of my dad as well. But anyway, around the door, instead of like buying garland, which was too expensive, my dad, like, nailed styrofoam up and used the clippings from the bottom of the Christmas tree.

And we made, like, garland around the door. It's kind of smart. And the styrofoam was perfect for lighting sparklers. Because, you know, you can use both hands to light the mat. So you put the sparkler in there, whether it was New Year's. And they were like crispy. And so the sparkler starts, you know, sparkling and like almost burned. The garland went up like, you know how Evergrewdried, Evergreen goes in a fire.

And it's like the front door, you know. Anyway, that was another grounding for weeks or months. So it was either art department or pyro for you. Yeah, yeah, or special effects. But no, I like we were talking earlier, I studied architecture in Texas. Texas at Texas A&M and really enjoyed the design aspect of it, but I didn't like the school aspect of it. And so I got an undergraduate degree and started working for a couple of months in Houston. Having worked there during the summer breaks, and I actually took a semester

off, I was designing a comedy. I was assistant to the designer of a comedy magic club. dinner theater kind of thing and um it was supposed to take off and here i got an undergrad a graduate degree and the owners had had kind of wanted me to like travel with them and and franchise it and i was like this is a great opportunity i mean i you know and i was young and so it's like you're working in a club and it was a lot of fun but it didn't it didn't really take off and after a couple of months i realized this isn't going anywhere and i need to get out of the restaurant business so i moved to California to get into film and that's how that's how I got to do what I well I mean there's this didn't happen because that's right story but that was kind of early design

training do a side note have you ever been to the magic castle yeah it was very much like that the the guy that the founder of the magic island based a club in newport beach it was on Balboa Island called Magic Island. That was the prototype, and it was real big in the 80s, very, very big. Same premise, you know, private club, nice dinner, you know, world-class magicians. I mean, in Houston, where the club, the second one was, I mean, I worked with Lance Burton before he ever, like, went to Vegas and did it big. So it was interesting, but it was, it's a, as I think about that, as I do, you know,

often, I recollect kind of the interesting characters that kind of came through that place. But now, very much like the Magic Castle. Yeah, I grew up as a magician. And so my partner and all them are very in my head all the time, you know. But I get to go to the Magic Castle now kind of often. It is fun to wander around and see the characters. What is you, what are you, do you do sleight of hand or what are? Mostly cards, although I got small hands, so there are a lot of card manipulations I can't do.

But cards, coins, sometimes some mentalism. But the thing is, it's always a party trick, right? Like, I'm not traveling around. It's always when you're hanging out with your friends and someone's like, oh, do something. No, that was the most fascinating ass, of all the talent to the club, the sleight of hand stuff was the wildest. And there were some amazing people that came through and that were. I mean, the staff, there were a couple on staff that, you know, lived there in Houston. And it was, it was amazing.

It is a fun, you know, I, I draw a lot of comparisons between magic and film because it is, it's theater, you know, but it's more personal like film can be because you're, you know, watching it yourself and, you know, what a Penn and Teller say, it's like lying, but you agree to be lied to, you know, Yeah. That kind of thing. I love that. I love that part of my job, you know, kind of the illusion part and also kind of piecing it together. Most of the things I've been involved with are not, you know, the popular sci-fi special effects movies. I've worked on that type of movie, but actually early on. and the tricks that you get to do and are allowed to do.

I mean, we're working on something on this project. We're figuring out a shot where the camera moves through the wall and how do we turn around and reveal that it didn't come through the wall. And those kind of things that you can incorporate into a shot that are an interesting way of storytelling. And it's not a reality because you're not in that house. You're on a soundstage in Atlanta, Georgia. Right.

it's uh because you uh this is actually something i was going to talk about a little later but you're the art director on apollo 13 i was just going to start talking about that because that's the kind of of um that's the kind of visual and special effects that i like to be involved with because that was in that was in the early 90s the or the mid 90s and some of those sequences the the wait list sequences were achieved in several different ways I mean, we were at Universal Studios in an air-conditioned, like a freezer, air-conditioned stage so that smoke would come out of the actor's mouths. And on stage, they were just like on a seesaw or a teeter-totter, so that it was perfectly balanced to them and a grip or whomever would move the teeter-totter up and down so that they looked like they were floating and it just sat under their seat. then I was involved with the initial crew we went there twice but came to Houston

or went to Houston and filmed in the KC 135 which is a weightless plane it's a it's a an airplane where they've taken out all the seats were built that fit into the airplane and we had actual weightness weightless sequences um interesting during that and and then there was there was early CGI used and and And when you look at the sequences of the rocket taking off, and you look at the sequences in the... Oh, right. Yeah, part of that was a model.

I mean, that was a model that was a digital domain, and it was, you know, it was literally laying on its side in their workshop, and the camera wasn't moving up and down. It was moving sideways across the model, and then they put in all the visual effects after that. But it was kind of early, you know, it still utilized this way, But so many things now are lean on complete generation, or a lot of generation in the computer, which is amazing.

It's just I haven't been, I haven't been that involved with it. On this project, we're doing things like building extension and erasing things or burning in screens or things like that. But, no, Apollo 13 was, it was an amazing experience in many different ways, but it was, you know, one of the, one of the, I was very fortunate to get to work with some of the, as an art director and as a designer, some amazing directors and people like Ron Howard and John Schlesinger and to be able to share a room with them was, has been quite exciting. Yeah, I mean, Ron Howard. And cinematographers, too. That's the thing that, I mean, the relationship I'm developing now with Toby is amazing. And it reflects back to, you know, 10 years ago I got to work on a film with Genzo Washington, which there was a lot of pressure just in doing that because he's a big guy

in every aspect of the word. And, you know, I am always, you know, as an artist, I'm always questioning. myself and wondering when they're when they're going to figure out maybe it's like oh this is like the emperor with um the emperor anyway let's not go down that road but um but i was working with i was going to be working with philippe bruselof and i was like wow wow this guy's you know this guy is like big time and i had as an art director i had got to work with conrad hall and some amazing amazing cinematographers who were all just so lovely but when you the name and the reputation come, I'm thinking, oh, my God, how am I going to, how am I going

to balance myself in this arena? And he was just amazing and so gracious. And I have found in my experience that it was, it's the, I don't know, it just varies. I can't even say what I was going to say because it varies because just more recently, a younger, but just as, just as accomplished cinematographer Jeff Cronin with. I've been I've been I got to work with him

on a tiny little movie with Sam Taylor Johnson that Sam and Aaron wrote and produced and there you go it's like I'm working on it going into it like let's say it was a four million I think it was less than four million dollars

maybe a three million dollar movie and I'm working with Jeff Cronin with and it's like I know he's going to get his tour but I don't know what I'm going to have to work with and how am I going to present myself to this to these people you know what are the tools that I will have and I have it was one of you know the Philippe and Denzel and I include like Sharon Davis the costume designer the that aspect of on-set production and creative was one of the most amazing experiences I've had and the same with Sam and Jeff and and and Aaron being an actor and producer. It's like, I think I might have taken off on a plane that you didn't ask, but... No, that's fine. But the, sometimes the, the, the, the, the fear that I bring to the initial part of a project

is so, is misplaced. with wondering about people and their reputation and who they are and what they are. And I think, you know, just kind of, there's, Kenny, maybe this is trying to do a little bit of a therapy session. To be fair, I've pulled that on a few guests, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, actually, the 50th episode of this podcast, I interviewed Jeff. And he was incredibly gracious and very nice and gave me a lot of time.

I don't want to work so badly. It's like so many, you know, a lot of times you go into a dialogue on a project and it's like, oh, those walls are too white or, oh, I'm not sure about the reflection on that. And let's take the glass out of that, out of that photograph or whatever it is. And there was nothing, nothing that he didn't. And then, it's funny, funny with Philippe, before he landed, I'm just thinking of conversations. There was nothing that Jeff ever changed. He called me up one night. They were doing it.

They were doing an all-nighter in art department. Once the set's open, it's like, I'm not, you know, good luck and I'll see you in the morning or I'll see you at the next call time. But Jeff called me up and asked me if he could move a lamp off of the desk. And I said, you can do whatever you want with that room. I know it's going to be amazing. And there was a similar thing like with Philippe when we were working, you know, a lot of, and I'm currently I'm on a project where.

where it's a mixed race cast. And so the values and the tones of things you need to be sometimes a little bit more aware of for the balance in a scene if you have multiple skin tones. And I asked Philippe about that on the phone before he came because we were making decisions and picking things before he came.

And I was asking him about lights and lamps and color. And he says, you do what you feel is correct and correct to the period. And I'll dance behind you. and it's exactly what he did. He's the same person that on a, we had a company move from a location into a field that we were shooting at dust, magic hour,

so you know the clock is ticking. And the bus was supposed to be traveling down the road at magic hour, and there was supposed to be campfires in front of these tents. And the rigging department was a little bit behind. The company moved earlier than expected, and they were setting up the shots, and Philippe landed, and I landed, and, you know, they needed help. And so the two of us were, like, digging holes in the field, planting the lights that were going to simulate the campfires. That's one I'm going to be in my memory banks forever.

You know, your comment about different skin tones and stuff kind of set me back to, like, oh, when you're, when you're, a starting off filmmaker you have to work with like the apartment that you have or whatever and you know all apartments the office you're in they're all white-walled and we don't obviously tend to shoot that in filmmaking and i'm wondering uh with your experience as an architect why do we build spaces for ourselves that don't reflect what we want to see in our art why do like our personal spaces yeah the spaces we spend far more time in than film, we neutralize. Personally, I'm

living in a rental in Atlanta. Before I moved in, I hired my paint department to go in and paint the entire house. And it was a magazine article I read. My big, my go-to color, I'll show it to you.

Yes, please. For anything, is Farrow-in-Ball Pigeon? Pigeon is the name pigeon is the name of the color and there was an article in the New York Times about a guy

outside of Woodstock or something someplace near Woodstock that painted his entire house top to bottom and pigeon and I saw the pictures and I picked this color this is really bad that I'm not immediately going to it

because it's always my first go-to is that? Sorry I had to put my glasses Fair enough. Where are you? Los Angeles. Where in Los Angeles?

West L.A., so kind of outside of Santa Monica in that, like, Japanese area. There's Pigeon. Oh, nice. It's like a greenish kind of gray kind of. It's a greenish gray and, you know, dependent on the time of day or the color of light it really takes on a gray field it can pull out a lot of

blue as well but it's it's really I mean it is a everybody looks great in that so anyway so you were asking why do we I mean my personal space I mean it's bad

but it's like the the spaces that we see in film and the things that you guys design are always So we always look at those and goes like, that's amazing. But then we move in our own houses and just white, you know, whatever. And it's not like you guys are inventing, you know, I've worked with production designers who will straight up go to Home Depot, grab a bunch of stuff and then, you know, return it two days later or whatever.

So it's not like these things are unachievable or you can't find them. It's just we choose not to. And I'm wondering about the psychology of that from like a designer slash architect perspective. Is it an economy thing or why do we do that? I've always kind of made a space my own. I mean, we're in where I set this thing up in what the department calls it, the sauce palace or something like that because people get saucy or something in here. But this is where all the singles and things are.

But in like what we call the war room where we're putting up all of the imagery and the conceptual ideas, we came in beforehand and it's like, hey you guys let's paint these walls so that it's the color that we're going to I I I do that in my personal life and in my work spaces and and and personal spaces I set it up um and it kind of is interesting because it's like I our eyes are always open and kind of taking an information and looking at things and I go and I go and sometimes I go into personal spaces and people like you're saying people don't do that you know some people are very very aware and you know sometimes they might hire somebody to make their personal space amazing and then some

people you know me you know it's not it's not their thing but it's definitely it's definitely mine yeah i've been thinking about this this is my office now and uh because i edit so much in here i'm like do i just paint all the walls like neutral gray and i was like that's going to be so boring if like but it makes sense as like a colorist like you don't want blue you know that'll screw up your hole. Yeah. I actually did want to ask, you know, especially working with people like Conrad Hall or Jeff,

are there anything that the cinematographers you've worked with have taught you that you maybe weren't aware of needing to think about or something interesting like that that you've taken with you from John to John? I don't know which ones have kind of formed it, But in the last, I'd say in like the last five years, my emphasis has been more on, on the light, the light of the set. And it's always been an element, but it's like, for instance, I mean, I, on Ozark, you return to similar locations or you go.

go to different locations and it's like, yeah, the decor can be different, the value, the color can be different, but then when you really get into a scene and as I'm looking at you and as we're talking, a lot of times scenes get into a face, it's like, what am I seeing right now? I'm seeing a really beautiful light of the window behind you and then the beautiful reflection in the artwork, the glass of the artwork. These are actually uncut card sheets. Like playing card, hold on, I'll show you, since you'll find that interesting. I love that.

Yeah, I've had these, this is a, this is a gaff deck, so these are all, like, fake cards that are used for tricks, and this is just a white one. What's the image on the, on the board in the corner? That one? Knows all. Is that the mentalist guy? No, that's, that's Lewis Black. He signed that for me years ago, the comedian. We got some snowboards back there.

And then those are some film strips from The Matrix. But we just do show and tell. This is the problem. My girlfriend gets mad because we'll have new people over and I'll be like, and these are art I bought from the guy down the street. And this is my new snowboard. And she gets mad at show and tell. Oh, I love that.

But yeah, so you're talking about light. And incorporating more light into sets. And what the, pattern of the light is going to be and and like in the pre-production the show that I'm on we're going to start shooting next week and in pre-production those were conversations that were had with the cinematographer and the director and it's like particularly when I have you know conversations with the cinematographer it's like I want to understand his sense of composition and where that how that light you know is it going to be soft is it going to be hard is it going to be harsh and and I start to utilize

that in the, you know, in the development of a character in the scenes and, and it's, that's just played, and that, that, that comes from, you know, it's like, it's, it's a way for me, like a wind, like a window puncture or the pattern of a window. It's a way for me to be able to control a little bit of that pattern because I can't, I can't always determine what you guys are going to come in and do with your light. So, is, is, is, it. it gonna i mean this white room at this if you're if your house or where you are right now was a set you know this could turn from anything from like almost like it could be completely blown out where you don't see anything much of anything or the lights could be off right so so if there's

a natural source like a window or something like that that i can you know at least look at the pattern and kind of but those are the conversations that i love to have you know and some sometimes you have that ability to collaborate and that was the experience that I really have like say for instance with Denzel and Philippe and the same with Sam and Jeff

and and last last you know the last the last all of this you know I really enjoyed the cinematographers that I got to work with on Ozark as well that's kind of my most recent you know long haul

yeah relationship. I actually interviewed Eric Corretz. Yeah, yeah. That was like two episodes ago. Yeah. Not for whoever's listening, but for us today now, he was like two hours ago. And he was, he was fantastic.

But that show has a very interesting, like I remember I watched a couple episodes of the most recent season to talk to him about it. And like the families like house, I remember they were having a conversation and it looked like it was only lit from like a patio door. There were no lights were on, or at least it felt that way. Was that kind of the goal? Because then later in the office, when it's nighttime, there's obviously lights. But I think you might know what episode I'm talking about.

She's that one that little. But that show has a very interesting low-key look to it across the board. Were you, because, you know, some movies, some television shows will be like, you know, You can't tell when it's edited together, but if you were to take a wide shot of the room, there's like 40 lamps. You know, this child has 40 lamps in their room.

That's not the case. That wasn't the case on Ozarks. There's definitely, there was specific lighting and big lighting setups. But I've never been on a show that had more concentration on shade and creating shade, particularly in, well, in exteriors.

I mean, when I, I came on to Ozark in the third season, so I only did the third and the fourth season. And I was apprehensive about that because it was like, oh, why do I want to pick up where somebody else left off, you know, artist ego, whatever. Sure. And I interviewed with, and I wanted to work with Jason Bateman. And he was, he was the director of the first two episodes, executive producer, one of the strong creative forces. And I wanted to work with him. and um i said my apprehension is like i can pick up where somebody left off but it's like what's the creative um feedback or what's the creative gift and he assured me that there were

things in the in the upcoming season there was going to be i mean i was going to get to design the riverboat and open up the whole aspect of mexico and the drug cartels world and that was amazing and exciting to do and he wanted to veer away from the gray, blue, green, shadowed, you know, palette and feel. And just to open it up a bit. And I believe also in the third season, and I'm not certain. I'm not the technical guys far. I think it was an ARI camera or an airy camera.

They switched camera types. I know on the third season. I don't know if that carried into the fourth season. I think Eric said they switched to Venice. on the third yeah on the maybe on the fourth season on the fourth season

yeah I'm not I'm not certain there was something red there was a red I think red I had to look this up I think red was one and two and then they either switched to Venice or maybe it did go Ari and then Venice but but the look

kind of took a different the show look kind of took a different turn on season three and in some ways and not to not to flight anyone on season one or two but there was a there I think that the intent was for it to be there to be a little bit more crispness in the in the darkness and I think the new camera and the new technology allowed us to do that and I got to introduce some new colors and some new textures and then in season

four got to kind of I mean not it was introduced some new elements by going to Chicago and introducing you know that that was a fun um set to design the Claire Shaw the head of the pharmaceutical family um that was a fun a fun project to do but um now i'm sorry now i'm forgetting no that's one uh you know i there's this great little borderline pamphlet um that i read called in defense of shadows uh by a japanese gentleman and think it's from like the 40s or something um and he talks about sort of the competing ideas between Japanese and Western architecture and like one there's one chapter about bathrooms he's like why are you guys making bathrooms white that's like that that's just trying

to clean it's not a clean area you want it to be dark and you want to think in there so that's what we do we do wood and you know very darkness and stuff and uh it's just it's a it's a great book to read about um as you're saying like shadow like shadow that's really interesting that yeah because it's like i i've done now i'm thinking about about like bathrooms because it's like the bathrooms where you kind of like a like a not like a like a more public bathroom like in a restaurant or something like that when you go into a dark bathroom there is a sense of kind of like yeah you get to chill i'm thinking about it it's like instead of walking into like the the airport bathroom it's all bright but i maybe that's part of the maybe that's part of the of the of the

psychology to in and out or something like that but I don't know it's it's funny it's such a small book in the bathroom I'm such a boy it's just the bathroom part stuck with me but but it is like a great I recommend cinematographers read that thing probably designers too it's mostly a design book it's not a it's not a it's not a photographic book but when having to deal with you know because I know in art direction like texture is so important you know suits I guess that's cost me but in any case like you know texture is cameras love texture, but you need light to ping off texture. So the show like Ozark, that's very shadowy and stuff, how are you drawing out texture?

Do you just find small fixtures to kind of rake or how, or is it not a very textural show? It definitely is. And then sometimes you have to like exaggerate the, exaggerate the texture. I mean, knowing that the lighting is going to be dark, I mean, we're something that we're working on right now. the project I'm working on now we're in a we're in a conference room and the cinematographer wants it really just to be a key light right over the desk and for the walls to fall down and I want that as well but I also don't want it just to go black and so there's a wash around from that comes from the the ceiling mall connection that's going to wash down and the the it's been kind of a not a trial and error process, but there's been at least two iterations of it, figuring out the texture that's going to be on the wall, a paper or something that's going to actually catch the light and then let it fade off so that it just doesn't go. We're always thinking about texture and reflection and whether the paint's going to be flat or is it going to be semi or is like we're working with Venetian plaster and how much of it is going to be polished and how much of it isn't going to be polished.

always played always playing with that and and and and it used to be the feeling you know that you know oh it's television you know I there I used to have a different approach or or mental I just had a different thought about detail because I came from film came from film world and hadn't done much much work that was intended for television. I had seen my work on television, but you paid a little bit different attention when you knew that it was going to be projected, you know, 50 feet wide. Well, people now have home theaters. A lot of people have, you know, there's a seven-foot television that anybody can have in their living room. And so it's projected wide. And so in every, any, Ozark,

Ozark was everything we did. We treated as a film. And so texture and light and dark you know was was all of those things were very much very much part of the equation yeah you know something that uh grant major mentioned that that really stuck with me because it's so obvious but i sort of the importance of it left me because i don't before i talk to him um because i don't think about it that much and that and that is how important production design is to telling the story of a character i think so i think costume is the first thing people might think or what they say, you know, the script, but the space they live in, you know,

if you're an independent filmmaker or a student or something, like I said earlier, like you're going to use your apartment. And it's so easy to check out of a movie when, and you don't even realize you're doing it, when the space they live in isn't clearly that character's space. Yeah. Yeah, that is, that is this,

the project that I'm, on is all about it's a it's a cast of characters and it's an ensemble an ensemble piece and so there are half there's more than half a dozen character sets whether it's their workplace and or their homes and in a short period of time trying to develop you know you read you read the script you talk with you know the director helps you well this director I'm working with for Gina King right now and she I love working with theater um people that have a theater background and I mean an actress or an actor it's like they they are we're all they are she's always thinking about the character and what is that actor going to do and what are they what is

going to be what what what do we what do we present for them and at the at the end of the day that is really, and it's not at the end of the day, it's really what I'm here for, is to create that space for them and who that character is. And I've gone to, I've gone to the math to, to, to, to do that. I can, I, I, I remember a specific, um, a specific situation I was going to get to work with Cherry Jones. And I had just seen her on Broadway. I think she won an Oscar for the heiress. And I was so excited. I think I had actually, it was. It was on a movie called Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood in Callie Corey. Wrote and first time directing an amazing experience.

And so the Cherry Jones character, I'll think of the name when I'm not trying to think of it. But anyway, there was a beat of a scene. It was literally a beat and come back. And it was a scene where the girls are coming. Buggy. buggy was her need and um maybe anyway um go with it the girls are coming up after a

after uh kind of a coming out party where buggy made it made a big it wasn't buggy anyway anyway she made a big deal and got home and so the girls are coming up and it's literally a glance from a mother from a daughter to her mother and um the cherry Jones character was going to be kneeling on a Purdue you know praying the rosary and it was literally just the door cracked, seeing her on the rosary, you know, kneeling and saying the rosary with her bed in the background.

And the room originally had like shag carpet on the ground. And it was like there was bad wallpaper and I was going to redo it. And I was told, I was told we don't have the money. You know, it's like we don't, you know, we can't spend that kind of money on that room. And so it's like I took the numbers out of the budget. But I absorbed it in another set. And so when production came through on the Tech Scout, and the production manager saw it, and she was like, Obama, I told you not to, you know, spend it.

It's like, it's okay. It's like it's covered. But I told you not to work, you know, to put money into that. And I said, it's necessary. I promise you, it's necessary. And so day comes of shooting, and I introduced myself to Cherry Jones, and I said, I want to show you something. um it's like i know this is you know you're in only in for a couple of days but this was really important to me and i took her up to her room and i said i had and i didn't give her the details

but i said it was a little bit of a battle but i i this is this room is for you i kind of redid this room for you and she didn't go back to her trailer she stayed oh wow and um i mean she got she had she spent the day in her room when she was breaking instead of going back to her trailer and staying there and so that was kind of um that was something that that was something that that I hold close to because I want to make the space for the actors to do what they do best and to create the space where they feel comfortable and they are amazing, you know, they have amazing talents and they can do things up against a flat or a corner of a set and not have to have the other two walls for the camera and the studio and everything is.

But I try wherever, wherever I can and to give that character something to work with especially if it's a personal space yeah well and you know in some ways you're taking on the the actors you have to think like the actor is there a way uh can you walk me through kind of your thought process when designing a room for a character like you know obviously you're reading the script and trying to into it but how do you make like little choices about like oh you know this is their um this is their little jewelry box in the jewelry that's you know like anything like that like how do you make those choices um well it's like it's like it starts like with reading the script and kind of trying to understand like in the current project there's a guy

that's down kind of not rock i don't want to say rock bottom but he's divorced um there's uh besides his ex-wife there's a woman that is wanting child support and um he's living in a in a month-to-month apartment so he moves into this month-to-month apartment and goes and gets a couple of side tables and a kitchen table from IKEA and a bed, you know, the beds just calls up mattresses to go and they deliver a bed. And so you kind of create this space for him where he, you know, where he is. The space itself, it's like, where is that place? And it was scripted as such and such apartments next to the freeway.

And so in the morning when I go to the gym, I go by this freeway and train, Amtrak station and there's this great apartment. It's the first location that I found because it was like I read the script. I'm on the job. It's like that morning. It's like I see it. It's like, this is it. It looks out over the central connector of Atlanta, which we're telling a story.

I'm working in Atlanta, which is like a huge film base right now, but most of the time you're turning Atlanta into something else. But this is Atlanta for Atlanta. So I'm looking for locations. What a gift. that kind of expose and represent Atlanta and this one part of the freeway where the two freeways north of town

merged together and then split up as they go out of downtown is always a cluster and to find this place right there it's prominent it's iconic you can see midtown you can see downtown and so it was just you know it's like how do you create that character

I'm putting in in a shit hole apartment and um in a pretty miserable location and i don't have much else you know to offer him and the costume designer fills in you know it's like his suit doesn't fit correctly he's lost x amount of pounds and um that's that's a that's a relationship too that i really really really treasure is the costume designer, designer, D.P. relationship. I mentioned it with Sharon Davis on the great debaters working with Denzel, but I've had that kind of rapport and relationship. I'm not going to say her name pronounced Kasper, Kaspernik, I think is her lesson, but Megan Kaspernik is our

costume designer on this right now. Working with she and Toby with Regina at the helm, you know, and Regina set the table for it. You know, when I came on, I was the first one on, and I had questions for her. And it's like, what do you feel about this? What do you feel about that? And she said, I need to get you and Toby and Megan in a room together or on a Zoom together and talk about that. And that was incredible. And Denzel did the same thing.

When you have that kind of leadership, it sets a nice table. when you're designing a space like that uh you know a lot of times you have to exaggerate things for camera do you have to do that with production design and also uh is less more because i'm just thinking of any film you know sometimes there's a lot of stuff it's busy maybe that speaks to the characters like frenetic mind or something but do you find that you have to exaggerate things uh in a room or is subtlety still work in the same way that would work? It varies.

It varies on the character. Is the character large and loud? Or is he humble and humiliated? And that's kind of what I'm dealing with now. It's like the one character is kind of like I don't want to say down on his luck, but life isn't

treating him very well right now. And he's trying to climb back up. And this other character is this big huge public figure you know mega millionaire guy that's big and large and that doesn't last

in this story and so initially there were thoughts of like oh fragmented glass or broken glass or or glass houses or glass buildings and you know where does he live what and what it and it was interesting in this because there are three

residences that he has three personal spaces that he that he that are represented in this an old family home his ex-wife's home that he built with her and then his new home and so you know the architecture had there there are there are similarities maybe those similarities might only be thematic like an equestrian theme might carry through or a color tone might carry through um so yeah it could be It can be subtle, but then it can be, it can be strong. Are you speaking to actors about, are actors giving input on, you know, what they think their characters who are doing that you follow, or is it mostly script and director?

A lot of it, the actors don't come into play a lot of times until, you know, the ship is sailed. But I always, when, when involved with a personal space or a character and if the actor is available, Um, certainly. I mean, um, I, that we had a camera test the other day and I had worked with this actor before and I, and I, I went up and introduced myself and there's a scene that need that, you know, he's, that we're designing something specifically for him physically and wanting him to kind of do a test with that or see what he, I asked him. It's like, would you like to come try it out? And just in explaining it, he goes, I'm certain that that's going to be fine, what you do. Now other actors would go, what? I want this, I want to take this handle home with me, or I want to go, you know, everyone, every one of them, every one of us, you know, has a different method and a different, a different way to get to where we're going. But a lot of times I will certainly engage the actor and, like, with, on this project, the ex-wife, I showed her kind of tone and texture and gave her, just introduced, I had worked with her as well, years and years ago, and reintroduced. myself and and told her some things that I was doing. Others don't, you know, it's like some, you know, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. Yeah.

You know, it occurs to me that, you know, cinematographers have, I've got what, 100 some odd American cinematographer of magazines here and CineFX, but that's not really related. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of resources for DEPs. For people who are trying to get into art direction or production, design, like what are some great resources that can kind of put them on the right path and make sure that they're making good choices? Wow, that's a hard one. I mean, I just, you know, I can only, I can only, I can only, I can only kind of maybe reflect on like my own path as far as like I was always interested in design and studied architecture. and so I got a sense of space

I would but it wasn't real and this is that's another interesting thing too because it's like so in school I think for designers production designers the sense of scale and space is the most important thing

to wrap your head around you talked about building sets bigger than a lot of times there's some people build a set 10% or 15% bigger so the camera can move around and I don't normally like to do something like that. I like to make it real, and if we're on stage, make it, you know, able to come apart, if need be.

But I think, I think, I think my background, the study of architecture and architectural history and space and was what I fall back on. And it wasn't until I actually went to Europe I traveled all over the United States, you know, as a kid, not all over, but pretty much all over as a kid, but then my job has taken me different places. But when I went to Europe, finally, I didn't go until after college, and I saw the places that I studied through pictures in school and in architectural history classes and things like that. And the scale clicked at that point when it was like when you go into the cathedral at Ely and you see the height of that cathedral, you can't determine that from the picture in, you know. Yeah, no one's taking forensic photography.

Architecture through the agents, architecture through the agents, volume one and volume two. It doesn't, it doesn't, for me, it's like it doesn't work. And even in present day, when the location manager and I are going through photographs on a television screen, or on an iPad, it's like, yeah, I like that, but I have to see it in person to understand what the scale is. But once I get there, once I draw that out or actually I'm not drawing much these days, the set designer and art directors and people draw things out and we model them now as well. They model them as well. I'm not up on all the current technology. I still hand-draft.

and but anyway um you get to see a lot of the of the of the visual and the scale beforehand so the scale of things is really crucial in my opinion for whatever was was there uh this is kind of too quick so for some reason the batman cartoon remember the old batman cartoon from the 90s yeah that art that art deco was that art deco or is that there wasn't that yeah yeah uh that for some reason that stayed with me and that became my favorite architectural style is that old like art deco look was there something when you were in college that like uh like a style of architecture that totally like got you going Antonio Gowdy and it's the furthest thing I don't maybe it maybe it isn't the furthest thing how I live when I get into a cluttered mode but I like Antonio Gowdy

because his architecture is as like a mosaic everything you know the elements the shape and everything are like a mosaic and I was drawn to that. And I also always like Luis Berrigan. You were talking earlier about the, I forget what the name of the, is it the Japanese book? You said something about shadow.

In defense of shadows. In defense of shadows. Luis Baragon is a, I think he's still with us, Mexican architect that uses bold, bold, bold color. and sometimes that's the thing that your eye is drawn to.

But the shape and the, I mean, he'll put a wall up at the, one of my favorite things that he's done is, because I'm a horse person as well, but he designed a horse farm, a horse ranch in Mexico, and there is a water trough that's this really long extended water trough where I think the water kind of might even peel off the sides. But at the end of it, and it's in a forest, it's not a forest, but there's trees around.

at the end of it, there's just a wall there to capture the shadow of the tree as the sun shines through it. And it is such a moment. And that's, you know, that's, I mean, I say that word moment. That's kind of the thing that I kind of strive to do in work. It's like, I don't, I don't, the reason I like film was, I was going to be able to get into the aspect of storytelling and visual storytelling. And I thought of, I think of things that are kind of like cinematic memories that are kind of seared in my head. That's what I have hoped to create, you know, for people in a film that, you know, I don't think I hit that moment or make that moment in every project.

But that's kind of the, and I love what I do. I love, you know, the aspect of getting to design stories and to be part of, like, the storytelling, but I also hope that I kind of can create a visual that sears into somebody's memory. Well, and I actually asked, this is going to be a two-part question. I asked them in reverse. First, I was going to ask, were there any films? Because I was mentioning Batman, were there any films that stuck with you when you were coming up that really, like, you know, from the production design perspective, got you going. The film where everything, and this is kind of.

I'm going to be so maybe, I don't want to say pedestrian, but so kind of like, it's not like a, it's not, it's not maybe necessarily like a classic where you think it would be like, um, but when I saw the movie Tutsi and there is a scene, there's a scene where the Tutsi character is coming over to babysit for Jessica Lane's child and they're in the entryway. and it's kind of a muted kind of 80s topy mob rose with some blue color in it and it's like Jessica Lane's clothes worked with that and Tootsie's clothes worked with that Justin Hoffman's clothes worked with that and it was like somebody figured that out that didn't just happen you know somebody figured that out it's like who figures that out and that's where kind of the dig began and this was in the mid 80s and you know at the time

it was an internet world and so when I moved to California I like hit the library to find out you know who designed that who lives who might live in Los Angeles who can I call

and I had one name that a friend in Houston at the club who I had hired as a cashier said, oh, you're moving to California. You need to call George Jenkins. He's basically my godfather. It's like, who's George?

He was a production designer. He designed all the president's men. And so I had gone to the, you know, cut to eight months later, I'm in California. I'm eating rice and beans and living in a warehouse and Huntington Beach. And trying to figure out how am I going to stay here? Right. And so I'm going to the library, trying to figure out. people to call getting the Hollywood reporter and variety and looking at the production listings

and I finally called George and I introduced myself and he was like 77 at the time and he was teaching a class at UCLA and I told him who I was and my connection and he told and he has they invited me over here George and his wife's name was Phyllis invited me to their house and he offered if I wanted to audit the class that he was teaching at UCLA. And so I got to audit his class. And that was opened so many, not necessarily employment opportunity doors, but it just opened so many mental doors for me. And that was where, you know, that was kind of my, you know, that was the, you know, that was the, you know,

George. That was, yeah. That's, and now, again, it's like I'm forgetting what the question is. I keep like, you know, on an airplane. I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't really have, I don't really have questions on this podcast. I have prompts. Okay. Okay. I feel like there's a lot of air traffic. There's air traffic control is busy in my brain right now. No, dude, do not worry about it. That's, uh, sometimes those are the best. I remember, uh, I've said this before, but one of my favorite. interviews was with the he's the uh his name stephen gainer he's the db's the curator at the asc museum i asked him my first question is that one good my second question came at the hour 30 mark so you know as much as it's it's something for people to listen to you know it's i'm also listening so for me it's like you know i'm buckled in i don't want to keep asking questions i just want to listen um you know we're kind of coming up up on time which sucks but i did you know obviously

you're nominated for an emmy for ozark uh what is this your first this can't be your first nomination we were nominated last last season as well um it's my and that was my first emmy nomination the art directors guild has nominated and and i've i've gotten a couple of art directors guild awards but this is my the emmy is exciting they're all excited you know to get recognized or to get nominated is is exciting and it makes you feel good and all percent then it gets you all you know it gets me all anxious like oh no it really doesn't matter but it'd be really nice to win but it's like it'll it's a it's a nice um i i'm i feel very blessed i have a whole i mean a lot of the people that i'm working with right now um worked with me on ozark um mount

art director, Sean Jennings, was with me on that, and we've worked together before. But it's like, it's a lot. It's a, I have, I've been, I have a lot of amazing people that I get to work with on these projects. And I, I, this morning, Friday morning, I, I knew we were having a big production meeting, which was not anything I really wanted to do. And so I got to the office, not, not, I didn't pull, and hot, but I was kind of wound up and walked the stages and I saw some things that weren't finished and I made some, I had some reactions to unfinished work and kind of

took a different tone for the day. And then I kind of had the meeting and I kind of had a little bit of a, not a meditation, a full meditation, but I had a little bit of a regroup. and I just had a and what I do it's a gratitude it's a gratitude thing I'm

I needed to do a gratitude check sure and I realized that I have a lot of people helping me and a lot of people are doing the best

that they can and are going to make me shine and so I had to backstroke a little bit and make a little bit of, I'm sorry, and I really didn't mean to be an ass this morning. I'm just fearful of, you know, we start shooting next week. I'm fearful of the time.

I'm fearful of what we're going to be able to do. And so I reacted like a toddler, and I apologize. But I'm, I'm, I'm, the nomination is very, I'm very excited and grateful. for that but i'm i'm most grateful for the the people that um that i get to work with and that look me up and and um that put up with me sometimes you know it well it's i mean we've all said that there's a it's a you know every film production is is a collection of egos whether or not they have it handled or not um but uh yeah it's it's always it's always a team effort no no you know I don't have any

what was I trying to know no single ships in the sea that's not a thing I mean no when you talk when you talk about that though too it's like you know it's like it is a bunch of egos and it's a bunch of different personalities and and

you know every everybody you know I I'm lucky because I get to kind of have my own department and get to pick you know who who gets to who do I get to work with specifically in my world and who's my buffer and who's my support and then there you know there are people that you're not going to

want to necessarily go out to dinner with or hang out with much but michael cornblith who was the designer on on apollo 13 he used to say you know working on a project is kind of like you're in a lifeboat and it's like you're going to get you're going to get to this island and you're going to get off and then there's going to be a rescue and some of these people you're going to stick with and you're going to go off with again. But you're not going to have to, you're not going to have to be with everybody all the time. And you can't be with those same people all the time. And so it's a, it's, it's, I love, I love what I do. I love the people that I've gotten to meet. And, and even though sometimes there's challenges in that kind of

ego personality world, for the most part, it's, I've gotten to work. with a lot of amazing people. Well, to your point, um, every, pretty much every DP I've interviewed has said that while technical knowledge is great, lighting knowledge is great, at the end of the day,

you're, you're a manager. And so, uh, that's something I kind of try to hammer home a little bit in this podcast for those who are listening for educational reasons. Because the audience, I think is like half people wanting to learn half people just like in war

stories and shit. But, um, you know, if you're going to work in this industry in any capacity, especially if you're department head. But even in the middle of your little hierarchy, you know, you need to know how to deal with folks. No, no. It's, it's, um, you know, you mentioned like if people, people listening are comers up and advice and things like that. You know, we talk, you talk about like the doors that opened like the George, like for me, George was an open door. But you also have to kind of look for those

look for those opportunities and look for the people and make those relationships because so much of it is networking as well. I mean, in the early days, you know, it was like somebody would call, hey, are you, are you free? Can you come work on a swing game, you know, for three days next week? And then that person, you know, got you on a job that did this. And then I poked my head into the art department and said, hey, do you need a drafts person?

I can draw or I can sketch for you. And then that person says, yes, Michael Cornblift looked at my drawings and goes, oh, yeah, you'll be great for this. And he was an architect. He was a couple of years older than I was, but he went to my rival school in Texas. He went to Texas, and I went to Texas A&M, and we both studied architecture. So you just have to look for those cracked doors that are open and ask questions and look for the opportunities. And I think kind of back to the personality ego of it all is look for the people that are willing to,

to shepherd you as well yeah or at least not how to manage their own ego yeah yeah yeah well i'm i'm everyone's a work in progress i have good days i have my good days i have my bad days i try to have more good than bad and if i don't have i do have a bad day i try to do a little back paddling yeah well uh you know so normally i ask the same two questions of everyone but uh i'll ask the first one because it's the only one that checks out or that works. But is there a piece of advice or something you've read or maybe some guidance that you received that has stuck with you over the past maybe a couple years or something like that that you think other people working in the industry or other production designers might benefit from? I think that the most important one

right now and I have to look at it on my phone because it came from my godson's sister, Sammy, who I'm really close with, she's a junior at, or Grimson, she's finishing her sophomore year at Lewis and Clark. And I want to make sure that I get it right because it's perfect. It's where my brain is a lot of times because I don't know about other artists or other people in this business, but this is perfect. Comparison is the thief of joy. Yes.

Yeah. No, it, oh, especially nowadays when it's so easy to compare yourself to others. Yep, yep. It's practically a, it's practically a business. All of those young people on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also like that's kind of, that kind of rolls into the whole Emmy and nominations and awards. I'm just grateful to be in a group of, you know, four, five, six other nominees. and their teams that were recognized for, hey, you did a good job. You did a good job. You know what's funny is, so a friend of my, well, two points on that.

One, a friend of mine, it just got nominated for his documentary, a guy I went to college with. And so we threw a little, like, we got together, had a few drinks, you know, like, oh, the nomination, we were talking about it. And this guy is, if you could literally say like, hey, you're about to get first place and he'll go, eh. like he doesn't get excited about anything and I saw as we were leaving you know we were in our cups a little bit and as we were leaving we started making jokes about whether or not if you won you know where you would put the statute and I just watched him get a little like you know just a little in his shoulders a little bit and I was like ah nice but yeah I think I think getting nominated is the win and if you win that's the party you know whatever that's that's extra

cake but the other thing I wanted to say was I've said multiple times on this podcast that cinematographers often get credit for the dp's job you know that oh the cinematography was beautiful and what they really mean was that like the set design and the costumes are beautiful and they like the look of it but they only know to to say that it was the cinematographer because that's the only person they don't makes the look yeah so yeah congratulations to you for getting the recognition you deserve because the show looks beautiful from a cinematography perspective as well but yeah well thank you thank you so much Kenny I appreciate that yeah get back to work. For anyone watching, he's in his office right now.

And thank you so much for spending the time with me, man. That was a fantastic conversation. That was really lovely. Take care. Thank you. Frame and reference is an Owlott production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Trax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.