Frame & Reference Podcast - 74: "Everything's Trash" DP Adam McDaid

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

On todays episode Kenny talks with Adam McDaid about shooting the FreeForm series "Everything's Trash." Kenny and Adam dive into a bunch of topics including Adams filmography, dealing with notes from studios and a bit of camera talk which is always fun. Anyways, enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we've got another excellent episode for you in the form of a conversation with Adam Dade, who shot Everything's Trash, along with a bunch of other great stuff, honestly. We talk about that show, which is a funny, really well-shot show. You know, dealing with studio notes. There's some camera stuff in there. All the usual good stuff for a frame and reference episode. So I know you guys are going to enjoy this one.

So please get to it. Here's my conversation with Adam McDade. um make sure i don't know boogies yeah that's the one thing is like uh i'm hoping that no we're fine let's not talk about it anymore okay okay video version um so uh tell me how you got started as a creative were you always um you know interested in images or was there like some other path that you thought you were going to take before you got into cinematography or kind of what was that starting matriculars was not the right word and how'd that go yeah yeah yeah it's um i know i was i was always very into movies uh ever since as a little kid

um i had some like really specific memories um one was like i was six and my mom took me to see the black stallion and when the movie was over um i just i was on con i was in inconsolable. I just was crying. I was super upset. I really was into the film. I was very much into the world. And my mom did the coolest thing ever. She took me to the box office. We bought another ticket and we watched it again. And that's like the only way she could chill me out. So I don't know, that's like kind of like something that like sticks out in my mind is like an early memory of loving films. But, you know, as a kid, you know, I was always super visual. I was always getting in trouble for daydreaming and staring out the window. I drew a lot of pictures.

But in all honesty, like, I didn't really start to receive a formal education in photography until I was 27. I did a lot of other stuff in my life before I was a cinematographer. I drove my mother crazy. I didn't go to college right away. I supported myself since I was 18. You name it, I've done it. I pumped gas. I was a trash man.

I worked in the environmental movement. And my big creative outlet was punk rock, actually. And I played in a band in Seattle in like the late 2000, or sorry, late 90s and early 2000s. And basically my band broke up and I got very depressed because that was my main creative outlet. And my wife and I, we had gone on a trip that summer and we were traveling. And I really thought long and hard, you know, about like what do I do next? And I had this journal and I was in this town called Vernatza in Cinque Terre. And I still have the journal.

I wrote in capital letters, I'm going to be a cinematographer. You know, I just really thought about it that, you know, I've always loved film. I never saw myself being able to sit at a desk or have, like, a straight job, like a real job. So, yeah, so that's kind of where it began. So, you know, my first photography class was at Seattle Central Community College when I was 27 years old. And, you know, I was in an associates program because there was a direct transfer agreement to the University of Washington. And I did some research and I, you know, I was like, oh, AFI seems like a cool school and it's super intensive.

Seems like they've, yeah, like they produced a lot of like, you know, cinematographers and I like that it was a, it was a conservatory and I was there just to, you know, study this craft. And that was it, man. I just kind of set my sights on, on that goal of like wanting to pursue cinematography with the clear goal of going to AFI. And I transferred into the University of Washington from Seattle Central, and they didn't have a film program.

So the next best thing I could do was cinema studies and comparative literature. And then I had a work-study job in the digital arts program, which gave me access to DVX-100s and Final Cup Pro. And I literally said it, and I said to myself, I was like, all right, man, you got three years to make a reel. And that's what I did, man. And I worked really, really hard. Having done all of these jobs, like pumped gas and been a trash man, played bunk rock,

like I had a very clear idea of what I wanted to do. So I took school very seriously. And long and story short, I got an interview at AFI. I had a really good interview. Yeah, they later told me they rolled the dice on me that I was like a bit of the wild card. I think Eric and I were probably like the least experience because Eric spoke about, you know, A lot of people from AFI come from the professional world or they come straight out of a proper film school like NYU or UCLA or whatever. But yeah, but yeah, so I had a very non-traditional route.

And I guess like the main thing was like I was always visual. I'd always love movies. I love telling stories. And yeah, I think I answered your question. Yeah, yeah. No, there's so many jumping off points. first a lot of people

have come on this podcast I've been like oh yeah you know I was making movies as a kid you know Super 8 camera DV or whatever went to film school early but to your point about starting later than most

I've said not on this podcast I don't think but a million times like I really wish I went to college later there's a bunch of stuff that I'm glad I did like I'm glad I went to college as a young person because I got to do dumb shit that like I wouldn't even attempt doing when I if I was like 25 or older but um yeah talk to me about like what being in in college like with potentially younger peers was

like if you if that taught you anything besides just putting your nose of the grindstone at that time yeah I mean I was I mean I was a pain in the ass in high school like I mean I got bored really easily. There are only a few things that really interested me. And, you know, having gone back to school at 27 and having, like, such a focus, I, you know, I was, I was a serious student. Like, I took it seriously. Like, I was really into the classes. And, you know, I took my paper seriously. I watched everything. I read everything. Um, you know, and I have some, I had some classmates around me. And, you know, I felt like the old dude. But I, in context, I was only like, maybe, you know, six years older than some of these people. Um, but. But.

But I don't know, like I think it just gave me more of a purpose and more of a focus and maybe having a little bit more life experience. I know maybe I was able to bring a little something more to the experience of both undergrad and also AFI, you know, in the filmmaking of just maybe being a little bit more well-traveled, just being a little bit more experienced, a little bit older. But I would like to think that, you know, the experience, you know, helped me, you know. well i mean anytime you were assigned i'm assuming uh anytime you were assigned a you know make a film it was probably at least somewhat interesting instead of uh what is it usually that they told us at new york film academy it was like uh character with one red rose goes outside beats up the homest person finds a briefcase full of cocaine there's a hitman somewhere um you know it's like there was like a list they gave us of like these are the things you're not going to do

And I remember going like, why not? And they're like every single one of you have the same brain. You're dumb 16-year-olds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely, I think back to like my early films and they're pretty past. There's definitely, you know, but you can't help. I mean, but be sort of derivative or like influenced, you know, by the films that, you know, you were passionate about and that got you excited about filmmaking in the first place,

at least for me, you know. you know like the the film that I think they told me like really that they liked on my real you know it's basically like a color noir film noir but you know there are these like freaky twins at a ticket booth and you know I don't know if it's David Lynch whatever but whatever they were some maybe some evocative images that helped get interview so sure yeah you had mentioned Eric that's Eric Carrots for those who are yes sorry Eric crates yeah well we were having that conversation before uh but um what was uh just because people who listened to this podcast uh will have heard that um that interview what was your guys's relationship like because you were in the same class there we've had plenty of people who went to aFI in the same time but i don't think anyone was in the same class yeah yeah eric and i were close and uh we were friends and hit it off and you know like i said i in our early in our conversation I sat next to him in our Friday night analysis class with Bill Dill.

And I just marveled at the way he took notes because he was an illustrator, a graphic designer, before he was a cinematographer. And the way he took notes, it looked like a graphic novel, looked like a comic book. And I was like, fuck, what is up with this guy? This guy's interesting. And, yeah, I don't know. We just sort of hit it off. And, you know, his work was unique and inspired, just like a lot of my classmates were. So, yeah, I mean, it was, it was.

It was a tight bond, I guess, like just to speak generally of the cinematography program. Because, you know, like Eric mentioned in the other podcast, you know, we all had to crew for each other, you know. So it's seven days a week, you know, you're in class Wednesday through Friday, you're on set, Saturday through Tuesday. And that, you know, I don't know, it's just there's a camaraderie there that struck. And, you know, I'm friends with all of these people still. And, you know, we had each other's back, you know, during. cycle films our first year films and on our thesis films and helped each other out in our early careers and so yeah i don't know it's it's of all the disciplines i think the cinematographers

were probably the closest because we just simply spent most the most time together and we were the most collaborative maybe i don't i don't know but yeah eric and i got along really well and i just was really inspired by eric's work uh did either of you teach each other something that you can recall at that time or maybe a lesson we learned collaboratively. Try to remember, God, it was a long time ago. We graduated 16 years ago. Maybe just a fight, you both got it. No, no, it's never like that.

We always just, like, we always had a good time and we just made each other laugh. And I do remember his thesis film in particular. He made this really good thesis film. I forgot the name of the title. but the director is a really accomplished director now, Zabatman GioE. And it was something that we learned from Bill Dill, is when the director calls cut,

make sure your first AC doesn't cut the camera until you say cut. Because sometimes the most interesting things can happen when they think the camera stops rolling. You know, like a moment of humanity can be revealed, you know, something like that. But in another context, It was actually the pre-roll and the end role.

And I remember their editor, this guy in Mike Darrow, they used the pre-roll and end-roll as edit points in the film. And the film was playing with time. And I don't know. I just remember being struck by that and just thinking, I don't know, maybe Eric thought about that lesson from Bill And maybe that was just sort of this thing that evolved in the edit between the director, editor, and the cinematographer from this, like, little, um, simple idea that was, that was articulated to us. You know, that's, uh, do you edit at all?

I used to. I used to. Like, I occasionally will, like, cut a reel and stuff. But yeah, I used to edit all the time. So it, it's, um, such a simple thing. But now that you mention it, like, that's, that was, I don't know when it was ingrained in me. But I actually turn off the tally light on all of my cameras because, yeah, for that exact reason, because I want that chunk at the beginning and that chunk at the end where you can steal a few seconds or so, maybe a reaction or maybe, you know, when they chill or maybe when they look up. There's just like little things that aren't, you know, when we went to ASU, they taught us what they called ethics-based filmmaking.

So you want to make sure you're using a clip that the actor wouldn't think like, what the fuck? That's just me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, those little seconds before and after I think are ethically okay to use. Yeah. Yeah, such a great point. Really valuable time in those free and post role. Yeah, and like, and also, too, there was a commercial director I worked with a long time ago and we're still friends.

And I'd never heard the term 50-50 before, you know. And it's just something you can say very. nonchalantly on set 50-50 when you're working with people that aren't say professionally trained actors and then you know sound and camera all know to roll the camera you know to kind of just steal you know these moments like these moments that are just uh um you know just more open and unaware that you know something's being recorded and i do the same thing actually like you said i make sure the tally light is not off for that same reason because you know they'll see the light go off and that's it like performance over yeah totally

You had mentioned creating a reel, and we've talked about reels before on this podcast, but they clearly were useful in the past. Do you think they're still relevant, or do you think you might as well just go out and make a project? Because that's the advice I've heard these days, but I wish reels were useful. Yeah, I mean, I feel for me early on, reels were important just because my early work coming out was short form. that was mostly short films. You know, I didn't have bigger projects or for commercial stuff. Like, I didn't have big brands or anything like that. So for me, early on, I think reels were good in terms of just kind of showing range.

I, you know, I think things are a lot different for cinematographers coming out now or coming up now. Because, you know, there was no video. There was no Instagram. You know, you couldn't shoot 4K on the phone. So, yeah, I don't know. It was helpful for me. I certainly see plenty of reels still, you know. For me, I just put up complete projects at this point in my career,

and that's just because of, you know, where I'm at. But yeah, I think they're important. Do you maybe have some insight as to how someone can get past the point of only doing short form and sort of needing a reel to the point of being able to, being able to just post those full, you know, commercials and whatnot? Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing, honestly, I've learned over the years, it's ultimately, it's not the bigger projects or branded projects to get you notice, but more often than not, it's the personal projects.

You know, like, I think ways where you can, you know, do something where you can, like, really sort of express yourself the way that you want to express yourself visually or how you like to make images or tell stories. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, in my own experience, you know, I first got signed 11 years ago, and the project that got me signed was something I made on my iPhone for when I had insomnia. You know, I was recently moved to New York, and I'd never had insomnia before. And rather than staring at the ceiling, I would go for walks when the sun was rising.

And I just started shooting video on my camera and, like, figured out a way to import it into final cut and like i know through like uh explosions in the sky track or something under it um and walter partos at the partos company which isn't around anymore saw that you know like i sent him my stuff and he he was like willing to meet with me but he's like you working on anything interesting i was like well i had insomnia and i made this weird film on my phone and uh i showed him that um And that's what got me in my first representation. You know, and I didn't really have much of a reel to speak of back then, you know, it wasn't nearly as whatever accomplished.

And but whatever, it got me, it got my foot in the door. They saw something creative. They helped me get, you know, my first big commercial director to collaborate with. And that just kind of like got the ball rolling, you know. And, you know, it didn't change. anything. It's just, it just maybe, you know, like I said, got my foot in the door and I just need to start working harder and keep hustling, you know, but I guess, I don't know, I get distracted easily, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I think it's the personal projects. I think

it's the personal projects that I've made that have gotten the most notice, like not the big branded stuff, you know, like one of the projects I'm most proud of, or two of them, you know, were these, a music video I shot Haiti, and then this short doc that I did here in New York about a dance crew on subway trains. And that came out of nowhere. Like that came from like Vimeo and Instagram. And still like these projects that aren't for anything except for, you know, me and the director is what, you know, helped me book bigger, bigger jobs. Like, I know that this one job, or sorry, that one project is called the next stop. you know, I know that was

instrumental in me booking my first studio job that I just wrapped in July. So it's weird, man. There's no sort of rhyme or reason to a career. I used to waste a tremendous amount of time worrying about it or comparing myself where I was to other cinematographers

instead of just staying focused on making stuff, always be shooting, like just always, like, work to form new collaborations and always make stuff um you know and just be prepared like eventually you know something's going to happen like you're going to catch a break um and when you get that opportunity like hopefully you know you're ready for it you know you're experienced enough and you bring all that skill and experience with you yeah what is it opportunity is luck plus preparation

I think that's the phrase You know, it's funny you mention like the personal projects and stuff because it does feel like, I've heard shadows of that type of advice before and it's funny how the risks that you take that get you in the door are then quashed in the

generally in the name of safety on set. Not literal safety, but like don't get crazy. just like this, you know, simply and get fucking check out here. No, I definitely learned that on the show. I just finished everything's trash, you know, like it was, you know, in prep, going for it. And it was a unique opportunity because they'd shot a pilot in L.A. That got the show Greenlit.

And the show is very much set in Brooklyn because the star of the show is lived in Brooklyn for 14 years, but everything was shot on the stage, and it felt very, um, inauthentic because it was on a stage and uh and i took a gamble like when my agent got me the interview for this job when i put together the deck like i didn't use references from other works or other films or other photography like knowing that they were going to start over bring the show to brooklyn um you know what i pitched in my deck was like let's make brooklyn a character and i just used my street photography in the deck you know and just it was just a simple idea it's like when we're on location like you know let's have

have the cinematography feel like, you know, it's looking through the viewfinder of a street photographer, you know, and that sort of resonated with them. And that project, the next stop, and then this thing I shot for HBO last year called Paws of CMJ. And we come in with these bold ideas. And yeah, I definitely started getting studio notes. And like, we went like a little safer. I'm to say we went a little safer, a little safer than maybe what the intent was at the beginning. And not that the work suffers or anything, like, I get it. Like, I had to, you know, learn that game, so to speak. But, yeah, but still, like, I think the show looks rad.

100%. No, and even just, like, a quick peek at the trailer, and you can see, like, you guys got some really good work in there that looks. And I actually want to talk a little bit about kind of the lighting of that show a little bit. But I'm wondering if you can, and also some of your commercial work, but I'm wondering if you can elaborate a little bit more on your interaction with, the those who give notes and stuff and and what those tend to look like and how you respond and kind of yeah mentally make those what do you call it adjustments but

also when you do something you both want to do what's that not collaboration what's that word oh well it's collaboration or like the idea sort of oh yeah yeah yeah compromise yeah it's um yeah I mean it was really so basically me the supervising to who directed three episodes, Sam Tichio Ginosaur, our production designer, Josh Peterson, and our costume designer, Anitra, Michelle. Basically, the four of us, we all prep the show together. PD started earlier designing sets and all that,

but from day one, we were like very much all on the same page in terms of how we visualized the show. So, you know, we're really bold, like trying to make it more cinematic, more cinematic, you know, single source, naturalistic, all of that. And, you know, we definitely went that way for the most part. I mean, obviously, it's a network show. Like, you know, people can't be in half light, like whatever. It can't be as contrasts as maybe as I would like sometimes.

So, yeah, so basically, you know, we shot the first episode in March, and then we had a two-and-a-half-week prep period for episode, And during that time, you know, we presented the edit to the studio. And, yeah, and they come back from notes, basically. And, you know, and for the most part, they were good. They were like they loved what we were doing. The whole reason that they brought the show to Brooklyn was for it to be, you know, was for Brooklyn to be a character to make the show feel as real as possible.

You know, and ultimately, you know, it comes down to the showrunner and the studio. And they're just like, you know, just, you know, faces need to be. a little brighter you know it's it's it's it's a comedy like although it is a dromedy and there's some dramatic aspects to it um you know we need to you know we need to see them like you know it's it's comedy um there's certain things that just need to be seen that that allows the jokes to hit you know and uh and i got it you know and it was it wasn't a challenge i mean i guess it was a little bit of a challenge in that um this is like probably like the most i've ever lit anything in my life I tend more towards naturalism, and I still think the show looks very naturalistic.

So it was just like an adjustment period, you know, basically me and my Gaffer, we came up with a lighting plan, and we just sort of adjusted for those notes, you know, and just made sure that, you know, we heard them because ultimately, you know, they're signing the check, you know, we're, they've hired us to do a job. I made mistakes early in my career where I wasn't as collaborative, and that's ultimately going to just cause you problems. So it being my first studio job, like, I'm going to be like, yeah, of course, no problem. But it wasn't a problem. You know, it was figuring out the language of a show. You know, we had all these ideas we came up with in prep to how to tell the story visually, you know, create a visual grammar to tell a good story.

And, you know, you get notes and the thing is changing. I mean, it's so nuts. I mean, we were, like, hanging, like, the last light. Like, we're hanging, like, the last piece of art. You know, like, the day, like, day one of the show. Like, I mean, it's just the schedule was insane. Like, you know, we shot 10 episodes in 53 days. And, um...

Damn. Yeah, yeah, it's a super ambitious schedule. And, uh, so you just sort of adjust. It evolves. And then eventually, like, everybody's just sort of like, yeah, you learn the language. You take those notes into consideration. The collaboration continues. you know, Josh makes changes to, you know, whatever, shades of paint on the wall.

And, you know, I figure out certain actors take certain quality of light better, like, you know, coming up with, like, various formulas, you know, for actors specifically, you know, for just, you know, for their skin tones, like whatever. Like, so, I don't know, it was never boring and it was never formulaic. sometimes it would on the stage because there's hero look at hero sets you were shooting all the time but it was always fun it was always challenging but the most fun was you know when we were on location for sure because I was always presenting a new opportunity to be creative got them all over the place Kenny no dude don't worry but I've said this multiple times people are here to listen to you not me so the more you go the better otherwise

I start ranting, which is never good. But to your point about, you know, getting notes and stuff, like, A, that's also a lesson I had to learn. I remember being in a meeting and telling the person who hired me what we should be doing.

I was like, you don't want to do that because I was not. It was a good friend of mine too. And we, that was a definite like rift in our friendship for, for, uh, they're, They're about 20 years older than me, but... Is it all good?

Is it all good now? I mean, yeah, but not. It was something that both of us remember where, like, I have no way of articulating. Like, no, I know better now. Yeah. But also getting the notes, like, it's sometimes it's nice to have lines to color within. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. It's less, takes less, puts less on your shoulders. You know, sometimes, too, you also, I was also learning ways to kind of, oh, gosh, for lack of a better word, like kind of get my way. Like, there was a way where, you know, you can figure out a way to have a dialogue and have a discourse, you know, and really I think it's about, sorry, and that, you know, and maybe that sounds selfish, not selfish, you know, I don't mean to be selfish, but, you know, you can feel strongly about a certain visual idea. they think it's like really important for a show and the character and their arc. And so I guess a big part of it is like listening, being articulate, presenting a strong enough idea and the reasons why. And for me it's always character, it's always story,

it's always emotionally driven in regards to both the story and the character. So I guess that's a big thing. big thing is like listening hearing hearing it you know hearing your other collaborator but also making um a good argument a good creative argument on that that's passionate and has a reason and and that's the beauty of it you know and so it's it's nice when it's totally collaborative like that and and it's not all on your shoulders not all up to you and and like you said like then you have some lines to color yeah well and to your point like you um oh now I've lost

my train of thought. This is why we edit. Oh, the way that I tend to approach those things is I think of it like a coin flip where I'll go, I'm going to present my idea and their idea as similarly as possible, as neutrally as possible, not to be like, should we buy, should we make gold or dog shit? You know, you don't want to do that. But just be like, hey, so I was thinking this or you're, you know, you'd be like, do we want to do it like this or do you want to do it like that and then see you know if they go oh that sounds interesting you go cool and if they go no that's horrible then you go like all right great because that way at least you're not going to bat for something they think is horrible

yeah yeah and also too and also too man just like you know early on like I definitely was a bad collaborator you know like I was less skilled as a cinematographer you know and you know something will happen that'll that'll scare you you know like you're up against it in terms the schedule like lights fading like whatever you know and and then your ego sort of gets in the way and i don't know and i don't know it's not as collaborative as it should be you know and ultimately it is it's like the most collaborative art form is you know as a cinematographer you know it's great you're working with the director you're working with actors you work with a production designer costume designer but you know there were definitely opportunities like early in my career you know

um you know i won't get too into the specifics but like i shot this columbia thesis film and the film did really well and went to the New York Film Festival and this director is now doing like $40 million movies. You know, we don't work together anymore. So, you know, these are things that, you know, that are important to a career. You know, we're always learning.

We're getting more skilled as technicians, as artists, you know, but also as people, you know, and to and as collaborators. So, you know, for me personally, early on, you know, I made tons of mistakes. and both technically and politically. And luckily, you know, I learned from those and I stopped falling on my face.

Well, and something that I've noticed, pretty much everyone, I believe pretty much everyone has agreed with is early on, it's very easy to get caught up in wanting to try the new thing you've learned or the thing that you know works because you don't have either a reel, or you don't have a resume or whatever. So every project feels like it needs to be perfect.

Whereas when you get further along in your career, if you've done a lot of projects, you're like, this does not need to go. And this doesn't need to go on my website. I can just make this for the person, have a nice time with these nice people and move on. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and also too, like,

I mean, it goes back to, you know, the very beginning for me. Like, I remember my experience today of fine. It was super intense. And we were in this, you know, weird little fish fish ball that got dysfunctional at times and you know ultimately you know the it's the culmination of that experience is your thesis film you know and i remember like you know me and my you know af five fellows were all like this is the most fucking important thing we're

ever going to make you know like this is this is going to make our career you know and um you know it's it's crazy it's crazy to put that kind of pressure yeah and then uh meetings with george lucas yeah and and i get I get it. Like, you know, we all, like, you know, we all work hard to get to a film or whatever or an experience where we have an opportunity to make film. And, you know, and I think that just speaks to passion. And then, thank God, you know, experience catches up with that passion. And I'm like, you kind of chill out and just kind of go with the flow a little bit more and just keep, you know, being consistent and just do your work every day and be prepared. There was definitely a point in my career where,

reading books on leadership and team management were way more helpful than, you know, watching special features or getting the next issue of American cinematographer or a classic book or whatever, you know? Yeah. That's that when people say like, oh, you know, it's a lot of managing personalities. It's like, yeah, there's, there's some, for anyone listening, extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership by Jaka Wilnik to crucial books about managing teams he's a Navy SEAL or ex-Navy SEA I don't know how they call

I don't know how they call it interesting you're always a Marine but yeah very helps you kill that ego a little bit and also like delegate you know yeah I did want to talk about you know some of the selected commercials you have on your website look like perfect they're like perfect exactly like they look great but they're also the kind of work that you're going to get hired to do and that kind of stuff like they're just exactly what high quality work looks like and I was wondering if you could give some maybe tips on how you're achieving that look both with lighting and with

camera like is camera that important or is it all lighting is it kind of a mix well for me for me it's it's well since since moving to digital like i pretty much only shot airy cameras i've been shooting alexas of the you know whatever format of the last you know decade or so but for me personally it's always it's always about lighting um you know i i went to aFI and uh pre-digital you know i was trained on film um all of our first year films were shot on like you know shitty Sony like f900s or whatever we had like peel mount adapters and i know it wasn't even f900s it was like standard yeah yeah yeah it was standard death it was standard death yeah it was three no it's even before that like they looked like newscapers basically but i had a very small reel coming out and

I was trained on film so out of necessity um I had to come up through set lighting. So I was a third, I was the best, I was a gaffer coming up, and I've been a full-time cinematographer now for 11 years. So for me, it's always been lighting. I was really fortunate. You know, back to AFI, I went to school with two great guys that are still really good friends of mine, J.P. Belliard,

and this guy, Chad Colmia. Chad was 728 for almost a decade paid AFI in cash did like four yeah he did like you know saved all his money and like paid in cash you know he was on Roger Deacon's like crew for like four films

JP went to Northwestern like lived in L.A. for a while I was like working lighting and like those dudes taught me how to light like I was the greenest guy like I was like what's a cube tab like what's CTS? I was so overwhelmed in the beginning of that first semester and those guys

really taught me how to light like they taught me how to run a ring of fire like JP got me on this terrible but super fun feature Snoop Dog's hood of horrors in between my first and second year of AFI and I loved it man I was getting paid like 125 bucks a day

I was getting killed and I loved it so yeah so a big shout out to those guys who taught me how to light in my early days but yeah so I came up in light And so for me, I guess, it's always been lighting, you know. And as a cinematographer, I think ultimately the only thing you need to know in terms of cameras are lenses. You know, what do different focal lengths offer you in terms of storytelling tools? There's a reason why we have assistant camera, you know, assistant camera people.

They know far more about cameras than I do. You know, they really do. The only thing I can do is DP and operate. I mean, I know the basic menus and all that stuff, but I think ultimately it's lighting them. Like, if you don't know how to light and if you don't know how to light well, and if you don't know how to light fast, you're not going to work. And don't be daunted by that because, you know, 11 years ago, I was super slow. It's just experience.

You know, you just have to get that experience. So for me personally, I think it was just learning lighting. The early days were AFI. I'm based in New York now and when I first moved to New York I fell in with like the biggest non-union lighting crew and we were doing the best jobs like we were working with Harris Cedes

and like Darius Kanji and you know I was running the cable and focusing the lights and like you know when the work was done like I'm lurking in the shadows by monitor like I'm eavesdropping on the conversations and I was just shooting everything I possibly could and back then having an MFA

from AFI because it was still mostly film back then, you know, I had a certain cachet and I was shooting lots of Columbia thesis films on film. So long story short, for me, it's, it's lighting. You know, it's learning my, my, you know, just just learning my technique, refining my technique. You know, as I've gotten more experience, I think like I'm using less lights. It's, you know, it's become more simplified. I guess I guess a way to say it's like elegant is a way. You know, just like, you know, keep it simple. yeah so that's actually fantastic dismount there

because that's exactly what I wanted to get at was the commercials you have on your on your site maybe barring the Duolipa one but even that is relatively simple yeah yeah fucking love Duolip she's fucking rad he says with a T-oge t-shirt on

but talk to me about sort of nuts and bolts some of those more elegant lighting setups and kind of what what are what's getting you those uh what's not what's getting you those jobs what's letting you keep those jobs you know what can people maybe apply to their own work that'll give them a little bit of a boost yeah i mean i think um you know my most of narrative is my first love but the commercial stuff happened more quickly so that's kind of where i'm i think i'm uh i'm definitely further along in my commercial

career. So I think, like, the biggest advice I could have is, you know, that I have is, obviously, you know, know how to light, know how to light well. Make producers happy by not over-ordering. You know, like, when you go on a scout, like, do a proper scout, like, make a decision, like, you know, walk into a space, see what it offers you if you're, if you're working on location. You know, figure out the lighting there with your gaffer, you know, order what you need. You know, it's like one of the biggest compliments I'll get from a producer is just like, man, like you never over-order. We always wrap on time or early. And I think that's the thing, is like, you know, have a vision for what the director wants on the scout, like just do your

homework with your Gaffir and your Kedra, and come up with a strong lighting plan and just stick to it, you know, and the more prepared, you know, the more prep you can do in terms of with your team and with the director and going into the day. You know, I think, you know, the better off you are, the more open you are to moments of inspiration, like things that aren't planned for, just simply by being prepared. Are you full on the LED train now? Are you still using traditional lights? I mean, I'm super into LEDs, but I'm also old school.

You know, like I still love tungsten. I still And man For me like nothing beats Like Oh my God Here I am like blanking on the name of the light Jesus Christ

Nine lights The Nine Lights The Medium open face Oh the traditional ones The Mole Yeah the mall Yeah the nine lights Yeah yeah yeah

I know I still I still love Tungsten Tungsten is great But no I love LED as well. I definitely have embraced it. You know, it's just they're, you know, that's sort of in combination with like how sensitive, light sensitive sensors are now. I mean, LEDs are great, you know, in terms of just being able to do a lot with a little and, and be able to like, you know, do setups pretty quickly. Yeah, the one that always comes up is, it seems like, a, it seems like,

Astera just has a tube in every D.P.'s pocket. There's, they're everywhere now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know it's almost becoming, like, a little cliche. There's a Star Tube. There's a Star Tube. There's a, you know, it's like we see them everywhere. But, no, but they're awesome and they're super practical. We used them a ton on my show.

Like, we built, like, tons of soft boxes with them, you know, having, like, the full RGBW. Like, it's, I mean, it's such, I mean, the thing that's so beautiful about LED is just having that full spectrum, you know, like both with like, you know, RGB, but then also with, you know, you know, gels and everything else. I mean, the, the speed, it's, it's, it's, it's creating. And also just environmentally, it's, it's awesome. Yeah. The, the, uh, the keynote flow LEDs, I've, I, so I went on a little tear and I took my color meter and measured every LED fixture I could find. I think I got, um,

I think I measured about 30. Might have been more. And it's an ongoing project. I'm trying to build a website where people can just compare like the spectral output and like TLCI and stuff. But I found that those Kino LEDs

are damn near perfect. And depending on the setting, you get about 100 TLCI for certain outputs, which is just insane. But the thing that really changed my life, which is going to sound dumb for people who are like professionals,

but you know, I'm on the lower end. We all know this. was the xy coordinates being being able to just meter the sun that's coming through the window and punch those numbers into the fixture and it looks exactly the same it's crazy it's it's it's the best thing in the world coming from keno flow traditional fixtures or just like you know LED fixtures that only have one color and you got to like sit there and do the math on gels and stuff oh my god yeah i'm like the okay what was it the the my red shift and all that stuff and

I don't understand any of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember all that shit. Like, yeah, it's nice, like, not having burns on your wrist from, like, changing scrims and, you know, like, cutting gels. Oh, my God, like, I spent so much time as a technician, like, making, you know, set crates, like, you know, pre-cutting gels, pre-cutting diffusion to, like, all the different fixture sizes. Yeah, it's, yeah, LED technology is mind-blowing. Yeah, the, the, the, the, the fixture I fell in love with, my Gaffer fell in love with on my show, I love the vortex 8s, the cream source vortex Yeah, cream source is rad.

They're unbelievable. Like I cannot get over like how beautiful and punchy that light is. And, you know, all of the things you can do with it as a tool. Yeah. I wanted to ask, you know, going back to the idea of like commercials versus your show, obviously you're the same DP both times. Are there some examples you can point to where, the commercial work basically

let's see how do I make this make sense I'm thinking of like division you know like if you were to take something from your commercial work and how that idea changed to fit what was needed for the show like something that's kind of the same brushstroke but needed to be adjusted for the show

you know honestly you know I think I've never had time or the level of resources like I had on this show being my first studio show. So honestly, like the biggest adjustment for me was just like, wow, just to suddenly have like just this incredible wealth of resources and, you know, and labor, you know, to realize these big ideas that you can have like visual ideas for a show or a lighting setup and actually, you know, being able to execute it.

you know i had a you know i had a um shit i guess okay sorry to get back to it so like well in commercials and stuff like i think ultimately too you have to be really fast like you have an impossible schedule every day um you have like you know they want you to do 20 setups in a day with like two locate with like three locations news like whatever um so all of that experience was totally invaluable um i think the fact that i was a an electrician and a best and a gaffer was was super helpful as well. You know, it's part of the reason why producers like me is, like, you know, having been a gaffer, like, I only order what I need.

So I definitely think, like, that experience of those commercial works, of all those commercial jobs, it just have crazy, crazy schedules, you know, perfectly transitioned into television, because television feels a lot like commercials in a way. You know, like my lightest page count on everything's trash was five pages. you know we're shooting seven pages a day sometimes like we're shooting eight pages a day sometimes so it was great you know i think that experience that i brought with me in the commercial world my experience in having come up through set lighting um and most importantly like rolling with my team

like you know nothing without my camera grip and electric department you know and uh there's a lot of people i've been collaborating with for years um and and it is really collaborative like i i've learned so much for them and hopefully sometimes they learn something to me but it's definitely you know it was sick like i had a you know i had a i had a wealth of experience of the wealth of experience of my collaborators as well um and i was very collaborative with them from the beginning um in terms of like what the goal of the show was visually um i tried to be super inclusive with them as well like we're making this together like i'm the dp that this is like we're doing this um so yeah so i don't know man And it was just like sort of this perfect little storm of timing and experience.

You know, it took me, you know, I made the decision 22 years ago to pursue this and took me 22 years to get my studio for a studio job. And it's nice that, you know, I got the opportunity when I did because I had the experience to pull it off, you know, to shoot to shoot 10 episodes in 53 days to be the only DP. Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. well and I want to I want to highlight for people listening that like 22 years to get your first studio job isn't like 22 years to success yeah I would argue you succeeded far long earlier you know but that's just the first studio job that's all I think when you get enough experience you guys are all just different jobs but some of them are fancier you know no and I think I think that's such a good point I think that's such a good point because like ultimately you know we're doing this because we love to make images right that you know and every every project is important you've learned from everything. And, you know, to go back to, you know, what I said earlier about making mistakes,

comparing myself to other cinematographers. Like, I caused myself, like, an unbelievable amount of grief early on in my career. You know, there's no rhyme or reason to a career. Every project is an accomplishment and is a success. And, you know, even when it's not, you take from that, you learn from that, you take it to the next project. So, yeah, so I'm glad you made that point. Yeah, It's, yeah, every time you, every shot is an accomplishment, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, every setup is an accomplishment sometimes, you know? 100%.

I wanted to ask, you know, what you were saying, you had all the resources you could want, but you only order what you need. What are some of those things that maybe you've seen or heard other DPs ordering that you're like, you don't need that? What are some of those fancy things that we don't need? Yeah, I mean, I don't even. think it's that specific. I think it's like it's not maybe I can't name a specific lamp or or anything like that. I was going to say the gimbal. Can we get a gimbal? Why? Just we need it. Yeah, I just booked

a commercial and a gimbal is in the deck is in the creative deck of course. So we'll we'll see. We'll see. But I don't know. I think I think what it is is sometimes like over ordering, um, dumping the truck, you know, just puking the truck completely, heading up every lamp, redoing lighting setups, as opposed to, again, take the time, look at the location,

figure out the shots, figure out what you need. You may not even need to light this shot because there's enough natural light coming through this window at this time of the day and the schedule. You know, and simply making that decision, freeze up your crew to pre-light the next deal. You know, the next set.

yeah you know so so i think what it is is you know and if you have everything if you have a truck full of stuff and you're just puking it every time you're not making a decision you know you're just creating like a bigger ball on a chain that's slowing down you and your team and the show yeah does that make does that make 100% of the analogy i was going to make was like sometimes you'll order eight lenses you really needed two three yeah yeah you know and you're sitting And they're faffing around with them and just waste time. Yeah. You had mentioned a while ago about lighting different skin tones.

And I was wondering, you know, that something that's been talked about a little bit more in the past, you know, five years or so. But any sort of things you learned or maybe had to figure out coming into this show that you could share with people on like tips, you know, on lighting darker versus lighter skin tones. No, it's interesting. It's interesting. no, like there definitely has been a lot about it, written about it. And honestly, my approach is really the same. Like, I don't know, like, I just sort of, like, was still lighting to eye, you know, making sure that the exposure was, like, in a certain area in terms of, like, false

color, IRE. I think the big difficulty that I face sometimes in this particular experience was, you know, everybody was exposed properly. and like I was lighting, you know, whatever, I had a look or a vision in mind to, like, you know, still make them look beautiful, still make everybody look good, but still, like, hold on to a sense of naturalism and motivated sources. My biggest problem was, or challenge was I created a lot for the show. Like, I shot a bunch of camera tests and we created a lot. And sometimes that lot doesn't work in every single situation. It is only, like, maybe a 75% approximation of what the image will be.

So there were times where on the monitor, you know, because a lot was being outputted to all the monitors, and not all of those monitors were calibrated properly, you know, I had people come up to me saying like, yo, they're under exposed. Like, this looks dark, you know, and I could only geek out so much of like, yeah, 40 IRA and blah, blah, blah, and like, here's the log C. And like, look at the, you know, false color. You know, ultimately, like, some people aren't as technical as us. So, so it's, yeah, that became problematic where, like, not understanding that the Lut was in a, the Lut is no reflection of the digital negative in terms of what we're actually recording, you know, so, I don't know, like, I think I just always, light by eye, I didn't have any special sauce, so to speak, you know, I think there were just some actors who were just, like, certain combinations of light, and it wasn't even skin tone, like, maybe it was just like, you know, some people took part. lighter light better. Some people took softer light better. So it wasn't necessarily about level of exposure. Maybe it was just sort of the quality of light that I was throwing on them. And that was like part of the language that like me and my gaffer had to learn, you know, because we all met these people for the first time on day one of 101. And over those six days, that kind of became sort of our proving ground to evolve our technique and approach with each actor as we got to know them. Sure. Totally. Yeah, because it's easy nowadays. You know, I was just talking about this with the last person I interviewed, which won't be the last podcast people listen to. But hard light started to come back. We were in Soft Light Central for like 30 years and now we're finally starting to get Hard Light again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of cool. It's kind of cool. Like I did a, I used a shitload of park hands on my show. It was partly out of necessity because the, you know, the, uh, The grid was so low at our stages, so my Gafford and I had to, like, figure out a daylight look. So, yeah, anyway, I used a shitload of park hands on my show. Yeah. For different daylight.

Have you ever used the CRLS or any of those, like, reflector systems? I haven't gotten into those. Have you? No. And I, every time I try to get a hold of them, they're slippery. Like, because I write for Pro Video Coalition. So I'm like, let me, you know, borrow them, write a review. Like, let's figure this out.

And I got sent their office for like their distributor or whatever. It's like right down the street for me. And I went over there and it's like the same guy who does BB and S lighting, which did make great lights. It was like phosphor lights. Yeah. But he just sat there and told me how dope BV and S was and no other light would look good in the CRLS. And then as, this is like two hours.

And then as I was leaving, it was like, so do I get to borrow a kid? And he's like, oh, no, I don't have any. I was like, what the fuck? Great meeting, bro. He's just sitting there just telling more stories. He's like, all right, peace out. 100%. That's exactly.

what happened, which, you know, is educational. I really quickly, or maybe not, wanted to jump back to basically the first thing you said about being in a punk rock band, because I have said for the longest time that there's something in music that is cinematography and specifically punk, or people say jazz, but, you know, there's certain bands that kind of ride the line in between them. and I was wondering if there was anything from your music brain that you've kind of can't articulate in in cinematography or like anything that sort of seems the same I mean I guess like a terribly worded question but no no no I mean I know I do I think like I think

you know I mean obviously you play a song you know whether it's jazz or it's like you know like like a hardcore song or whatever and everything has a time signature everything has a tempo and I would say like that applies to camera operating you know for sure like you know particularly like maybe you know with with uh maybe with steady cam or like dolly work you know and figuring out like the movement the timing to like what an actor is doing in terms of blocking so maybe I guess it's like an issue of like you know I guess you get like as an operator you have like an internal rhythm to what you're composing to um I think like when it comes to crew it's kind of like a band you know it's like it's like the camera truck you know the grip truck like

that's like whatever that's like the you know the for de kano line you know and you're in the back the truck and you know talking shit and like talking trash about like how the day went and you know making plans for what the next show you know our next show you know what's the next show it's the next day or like next day's work so I guess it's like I know I've also likened it I mean I guess punk rock is kind of like being you know the van is kind of like a pirate chip and I think you can kind of make that same comparison to a lighting truck or a grip truck or a camera truck so I know kind of feels it feels yeah I feel that camaraderie of like you know I loved my bandmates and I hated my bandmates and we drove each other crazy and you know I think

the same thing can happen with the crew on like day 53 or whatever you know so yeah I guess it reminds me of playing in a band in that regard but I guess ultimately like if you try to make a music analogy It's just, you know, rhythm, timing, and, you know, feeling things out and having a feel for a song or, like, having a feel for an actor or a moment. Yeah. Speaking of Queens of the Stone Age, the analogy that I'm wearing a T-shirt for anyone to listen. Just realized. But there was something that Josh Hami said where he was like, Queens is supposed to be hard enough for the boys but sweet enough for the girls. And I was like, okay, that's probably.

the one music thing that stuck with me in cinematography for the longest time because if left to my own devices, I would make everything look like seven. And that's not, you know, that's not going to work. That's not going to work for every gig. You got to, especially when you get like a perfume ad or something. You got to, you know, maybe a little sweeter for the girls, so to speak. Well, that was, that was, I mean, honestly for me, too, like, you know, this is my first, you know, I did pause with Sam J and it was a non-traditional sort of comedy. And it was very unorthodox in terms of like the way we lit some things like you know there were some cinematic elements to it but you know like this is like the first straight comedy i've ever done like i've never done a

comedy before um you know i i don't think our show ever feels tight-key like i think it feels for you know for a sitcom like i feel like the show feels cinematic and looks cinematic and you know that certainly was my goal but you know i it's the most color i've ever used you know i'm like I've never worked with such a vibrant color palette before. Like, you know, I'm like you, like everything would be seven. Like, I lean towards, you know, drama, like character-driven drama, you know, that allows the cinematography to like to do like a little bit more of the heavy lifting, you know, where maybe it doesn't need to be, you know,

maybe the story can be told in one shot as opposed to a lot of shots. You know, so that was really exciting. And that was something like I really enjoyed about. the collaboration was you know getting outside of um how i've worked previously in my career and you know and and i loved it and i love it you know i'm really it's so interesting this you know chioque's ideas about saturation and color and how like he wanted her yeah how he wanted febe to pop out in the world um and that there was definitely a distinction from like her apartment to brooklyn and brooklyn felt like a little bit more gritty and naturalistic so that was cool um

I got one of the biggest things too was zooms like I never used zooms before and Chioke is all about zooms and like utilizing zooms where you know um we'd have two cameras on the dolly on like uh you know a 28 to 100 like 80 to 220 or something and uh you know hiding zooms and getting tighter and like having the movement just sort of move with the actors and you're just hiding everything in the move of both the dolly and the actors so you know there are there are a lot of of things in this project that I'd never done before that I loved and you know I made the joke immediately and I mean that joke I was totally serious like I was like I'm never not going to have like a short and medium zoom to my camera package now so yeah so that was something that that was cool about the project totally you know in that pitch deck you sent me uh which I did get I forgot to even I thought I emailed you back and I guess I just went oh rad and then went to whatever I was No sweat. That's what I figured. I figured. But in that pitch deck, like you mentioned, there's a lot of your personal photography.

And I was wondering, A, New York, hard place to get, I think all the best, not the best. All these, when we think street photography, I think we tend to think New York. And I wanted to kind of get your, I wanted to know more about how often you shoot photos. Like, do you have like a methodology behind it? Are you trying to be cinematic? Are you trying to be more like, you know, James and Norris or what are the webs you know yeah I influences you have photographically yeah I mean it was you know I you know I started to you know

when I went back you know I decided to pursue there as I started to learn more about photographers and things like that you know we're always looking at works of other photographers for inspiration and you know I think I think for me part of it came out of dissatisfaction of where I was at and where and what and what my website looked like honestly you know and um having like maybe projects that um not of projects that I felt were an expression of how I saw the world um you know as a cinematographer so I think it was maybe six or seven years ago I added a photography component to my website and I started shooting Fuji film cameras.

I love them. I think I had the there you go. I had the X100S was like my first camera. And I just got one. I finally got my hands on one. Fucking.

I've been telling you everyone to get them and they're like supply chain dude. They don't exist. They're the best. They're the best. But yeah, I simply added the photography component and living in Brooklyn

and living in New York. just would go for a walk every day. You know, when I wasn't working, I'd get outside. Like, I never leave my apartment without my camera. And so stealing shots on the subway, like just seeing weird moments. And I just thought, you know, well, here's a simple thing that I can update more regularly than my website because we have to make a living, you know, early in our conversation. You said, like, every project doesn't make it onto a reel.

But, you know, we still are professional. We do the best job we can with every opportunity we're given. So for me, it was just a need to express myself, you know, and I was, you know, I was framing everything in two, three, five initially to like just give it a little bit more of that, like, you know, say like this is meant to feel cinematic. And I've gotten away from that now, but it was purely driven as a way of a, I can, I can, I can update this more frequently and people can get a sense of how I frame and how I, um, how i like to photograph things how i like to how i like to photograph the world yeah i'm i'm so happy you said fuji film because i those those cameras get brought up a lot but i never asked this and you get to be the first i feel stupid what uh what's your little recipe what do you what do you go for in the uh the fuji film uh what do you mean in terms of lenses and lens

no no the the cue menu you know you set up your little like uh film simulation you know how I'm such a dork, so I don't get that deep. I shoot everything raw. I shoot everything raw. And then since I'm often shooting street photography, a lot of times I'm shooting from the hip, I'm trying to go low profile and I'm notice. Out of necessity, I set it to auto. So basically I choose my shooting stop. I choose my aperture and I just let the computer like,

do the exposure compensation with the shutter. And it's largely for me, it's just street photography. Like I love street photography. So it's like for me just trying to be unnoticed, listening to the music, stealing moments. And then I spend pretty much every morning when I'm not working, I sit down in front of my computer with a cup of coffee and I just grade photos on Lightroom.

And it's nice, it's a nice exercise to just like go back, view things. think about composition. It's taught me a tremendous amount about color science in general. And I think it's helped me in my collaborations with my colorists. So yeah, I think it's just like the simple thing. We're, you know, we can't always be shooting moving images. You know, then if you can't be doing that, then get the camera around your neck and get out there and shoot some pictures.

What makes a good street photo? Oh, man. Oh, shoot. I don't know. It's impossible to say. I don't know. It's weird. It's just weird.

I think it's just being... Okay, well, for me, I've... You know, before I was ever a photographer, I was always into, I know, an observer. I was always an observer. I was always, like, kind of walking down the street, noticing weird things, noticing weird light, noticing weird situations. Maybe I'm, like, overly empathetic. Like, I don't know, like creating narratives off of like something that I see.

I don't know. And I think what it is for me is just like living in New York, just sort of having your head on a swivel and just looking for opportunities. You know, there's one photograph that's on my website. And it was really simple, man. I was like coming, I went to Trader Joe's in downtown Brooklyn. I got onto the B train, cameras around my neck, standing there, the groceries are in between. my legs into my feet they don't fly all over the train and I look to my right and there's this woman holding a white balloon her hand is like in a cast and clearly she just had an operation on her

hands I look to the person next to her and it looks like your sister and I just like I'm just like fuck this is great and I just and I just like my camera's always on and I wake up the camera and I just eyeball it the best I can I snap a couple photos you know because I have it set to like seven frames per second sure And I get home and it's just like beautiful image and it's, you know, the focus was perfect. And when I looked at that picture, it's like, all here's just this weirdness of New York. Like we all travel in these tubes underground together going about our life. And I look at that picture.

I'm like, all right, maybe she's got an operation. Her sister got her white balloon to cheer her the fuck up. And it's just a weird bizarre image because nobody else is noticing her except me. And the woman holding the balloon who just had the operation, I don't know. she's just like looking out the um the she's looking to her left out the subway window and just sort of is like staring off into the middle distance i don't know clearly thinking about something so i don't know i try to i try to find something that resonates with me emotionally and i'll take a picture of it well and that photo tells a story or begs a story yeah you know yeah begs a story or yeah

or you know just me as a viewer like you may look at it and have a different interpretation exactly but but it makes you feel something yeah the the way this might be self-deprecating But the way that I can tell I've got a really good photo beyond just like, oh, the backlight's perfect. Is when I look at it and I feel like it looks like someone else shot it. Yeah. Because you know how like, because for anyone who doesn't do any like street photography or any kind of like documentary photography,

you'll take about a thousand pictures before you get one you want to show people. And so I always think of those first 999 is my photography. And then that one that really hits is like someone else did it. Someone in the ether pulled that one out and dumped it onto my camera. But it is, it is, but it is cool. Like, you know, with street photography and cinematography, just, you know, the more experience you have, like, you know, the sharper your eye gets. And like, you know, there's, I know, there's this, there's this nice thing where, you know, there's a technical craft, but ultimately we're working from an emotional base. So it's nice when you can have like a creative idea and it just sort of like crosses with the technical stuff.

And you don't really think about it anymore. And you just sort of do it. You just sort of like let it happen. And that's nice. It's nice to like get to get there, you know, and just, you know, to whatever, just make images. I'll, uh, I'll, uh, I'll give you a little tip that I learned. So on the, uh, on the 100 V, let's see, which profile is this.

So I guess you would, if you're shooting raw, this wouldn't apply to you. But, uh, classic Negg, you know, that's on the, yeah. So what I did is I got a, uh, warming filter, like, just like a cheap Polaroid warming filter. And that seems to warm up the highlights, but whatever the color science is in the Fuji, the shadows stay cool, even in JPEG, which is kind of nice.

But then I found that the warming on the warm black promist is basically the same as the shitty Polaroid warming filter. So now I have that on here. And so I get a little bit of, it's just a one-eighth. It's a very, you know, gentle. I'll try it. Because I'm not really a promisc guy on cameras anymore.

Yeah. I've kind of walked away from diffusion, but not totally, but I put for photos. It's great. I messed with it a little bit. I kind of fell in love with the, oh my God, I just totally forgot the pearl lesson. I really like the pearls. I really like, I really like the eighth pro lesson. Like I really don't go beyond a quarter. It depends on how much backlight I have in the scene, of course. But, but, you know, just something just to take the edge off of the digital image a little bit. Yeah, it's always the, yeah, just something, that's what sucks, is the, especially the black cromist got so popular that I like, instinctively stopped using it, but then you'll get like a hard window somewhere and you're like, wow, I just kind of wish that would roll off a little bit, I guess I go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like a glimmer glass, like a real gentle glimmer glass sometimes

is nice. Yeah, just a little bit, you know, just a little, it's nice. Yeah, I never hit a one. Get out of here. No way. So I saw, uh, I think it was. was, well, I won't mention his name, he's divisive, but, uh, he, like, carries up to a nine in, really? I think it was black pro mist. It was like, what did you like commission Tiffin to make that for you? Like, that's not a thing. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's just putting like light

diffusion in front of it. Like, like, yeah, I got it. I mean, I would love to mess around a little bit more and just sort of experiment because I definitely have friends that are kind of mad scientists like where they'll mess around with like you know multiple diffusions and like varying you know uh you know degrees or whatever you know quarter eighth half like and they'll just come up with these like crazy like mad scientist recipes and and it renders a really nice image but I don't know maybe I miss a I know I love deacons like deacons claims to like never use filtration and and for him it's about this. Who's that?

I love the dean. Yeah, I were, I bow at the altar of, uh, uh, I'm an accolite of deacons, yes. But, uh, I love the, sir Roger, but I love the fact that he, um, yeah, it's just about the quality of light, you know, you know, he rather. Oh, yeah, because his thing's always like super clean. Yeah, super clean. Master primes, yeah, nothing else. Yeah, master primes, nothing else, yeah. Yeah.

There's, yeah, it's so cool how many different approaches. This is, this is going to get kind of. airy fairy I suppose but it's like you you want to think that you have a style but we're all kind of dumping our styles into the same pool and borrowing from each other and I find that kind of beautiful in a way yeah you see like Rogers rad but you wouldn't always use his style but you could you know building your own ring lights and stuff and that's something I do love about Rogers how like simple not simplistic but like simple a lot of yeah he's like well I wanted a warm light so I put a light bulb there oh what did you do to it nothing it's just a light bulb

yeah yeah just sort of like you know like uh you know like a two k blonde and some mus you know some um bleached muz you know like you know staple it to the wall like bang a hard light into it and you have this beautiful soft warm light you know like return you know it's it's so nice yeah yeah yeah yeah i know it's interesting i mean i love that how like everybody everybody, you know, I think cinematography is very subjective. And, you know, when I, when I think about teaching cinematography, like, it terrifies me because I'm like, I don't know how to teach it. Like, for me, it's, it's a very personal thing. Like, I don't know. Like, I, like, I think you said, I think, you know, everybody's kind of, like, throwing, you know, their, their approach

into this pot. Um, and no approach is, is, you know, correct or incorrect. And going back to the punk rock idea, like, I find that the most interesting DPs are the ones who didn't um weren't taught it necessarily be or and this applies to almost any art form uh when you when you learn super formally you end up making really oh not formulaic well maybe formulaic uh stuff you make what's expected out of someone who had you know was brought up in that system but when you punk rocket and you just come from somewhere you never expected you do things differently that who was taught would ever do and those can sometimes be very interesting um you know you see it a lot and uh no i was going to say computer programming that's not quite right but you know

whenever an outsider comes in and tries something a lot not always but sometimes you can get something really interesting in there yeah totally yeah i mean i you know for my own experience you know i was I was definitely, you know, one of the greenest cinematographers for my year. And, you know, the first, the way I like to describe it is, like, that first semester at fire, like, I felt the water was up to here and I was just, like, treading as, as quickly as I could, you know, and I remember hanging out at my friend, Bobby Shore's house, super talented cinematographer, you know, and just saying, like, you know, dude, what the fuck is, like, has CTS? Like, what's his quarter of CTB?

And, like, freaking out, and he's just, like, smoking a cigarette. And he's like, oh, dude, we'll be fine. You'll figure it out. And anyway, so I, you know, I definitely got that amazing training at AFI. And we had incredible classes with incredible cinematographers. And, you know, we definitely learned our craft and whatever to come back to this punk rock thing that you're mentioning. I had a great thesis director. This guy named Bo Yarrow and a kid from San Diego, like, loves punk rock.

And his thesis was about a girl in a small town in, like, you know, upstate California. she's kind of a surrogate mom to her to her younger siblings because her mom's a drunk and like her only relief from this like pretty like miserable life is she sings in a punk rock dance and the basic story of the the basic story of the film is they open for a bigger band coming through and just to make a decision like because they get offered to finish the tour they're like do I leave or do I stay and you know we had the budget for 35 and and you know You know, the director's primary references were, you know, were this documentary, was this documentary about The Clash when they played like a week-long run of shows in New York City,

you know, and so, you know, I learned all this formalistic approach to lighting and cinematography. And, you know, we made an informed decision about like, what's our story, what's the world. So we're like, fuck it, man, let's shoot on Super 16. You know, I utilized movie lights, but I was largely using practical sources, like, throwing, like, 2-13s into, you know, 150-wob bulbs into lamps, throwing them on dimmers. You know, I was, you know, oh, yeah, I was under-exposing by two stops and, like, pushing it two stops in the grade to get grain. And on 16, like, it's even, you know, it's even dirtier. That's the grain, yeah. Yeah, so it was really fun.

It was really, really fun to, like, learn all these rules. Like, I mean, I think it's very important to, you know, learn the goal, learn the gears, learn the tools, learn how to light, you know, and then just throw it all the way. You know, just throw it all away. I mean, it's, it's good to have that, you know, base to work from. But ultimately, you know, you learn the tools. Then you use the tools how you feel like you to me to, how you like to use them to, to tell a story. Yeah, the way, the way I've said it probably a million times on this, but for, if anyone's listened to like every episode of this podcast, which I do not know if anyone has. there's got to be like certain phrases that I say that are just like a fucking bingo card like yeah there's the one for this one uh let me throw it away throw it away yeah no something I've said a million times that seems to resonate is like you to your point about about teaching cinematography you can't come up with cinematography in a vacuum that's why every lesson is always like well here's three point lighting because it's like yeah that's about the vaguest or like the most specific concept. you can tell someone but without the script you know how are you there needs to be context and then to your further point about throwing it away or whatever way more important it seems to go with what feels right than when what is right now obviously you want things to be exposed and you know whatever in focus and shit but in terms of like your lighting setups or how the light's supposed to feel whatever like sometimes like just go with your heart like I like

like this better, like turn off a light. Everyone always says turn off light, but a lot of times turn off a light, you know. Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, absolutely. That guy I mentioned earlier, Bill Dill from AI, like, you know, another lesson. He's like, when you get lost, just, you know, turn them off, turn lights off, just start turn them off one by one. You know, less is more. Yeah. I've kept you a little longer than I should have, so I'm going to have to let you go. But I end each podcast with the same two questions, but I've interviewed all. a lot more television people recently. So this first one doesn't quite work,

and I'm going to have to come up with a different one at some point. But usually it's, if you were to put your movie, or in this case, your show, everything's trash, in a double feature, let's say. What would the other film or show be? Let's say it's a very long festival. Oh, gosh. Geez, I don't, gosh, I don't know.

That is a man, you may have stumped me. Um, fuck, I, I'm saying, don't have, well, um, because it can also be a counterpoint. I, I think only one person has picked a counterpoint to there's, like, like not even a different, totally different thing. I don't know, maybe I'll, maybe I'll pick an inspiration of like the show for like the costume designer for sure in like some of the words in some of the wardrobe.

Um, and I also think it's a comedy as well. And I think it's kind of interesting because, you know our shows like incredibly vibrantly colorful in terms of its palette but like do the right thing like it's it's it's it's it's in the same neighborhood uh but it's black and white you know and but still dealing with like very um similar themes to comedy um you know so i you know me yeah maybe do the right thing could could be it could be an interesting thing to watch that's a great like immediately i'm i'm co-signing that that's it that would be a great one um hell yeah that actually they i said this did i say this in erics interview but they made they made

us watch do the right no sorry sorry sorry not do the right thing she's got to have it oh okay when you said black and white i thought that was that no she's got to have it black and white but no but then do the right thing actually in terms of color was most definitely a reference i can't believe i just you need to edit that okay no i'm kidding yeah i'm kidding you don't need to edit that but i would say she's got to have it because it's It's like definitely from like a woman's point of view and, and it's, you know, the hero of the story, you know, is, you know, is, you know, the hero of our story is Phoebe, you know. And so I think it's a contrast visually in terms of like a black and white to color, but, you know, clearly set in Brooklyn. But color in terms of color palette, like, yeah, for sure, do the right thing was most definitely a reference for our show because like the saturation of the color is, is big in both.

Yeah. I just remembered it was Pete Chapman's interview where I was like yeah they made us watch do the right they made us watch do the right in college they made us watch do the right thing like a hundred times and it made me hate it and then it really well because like the first time I was like oh interesting but you know young white kid from Northern California like it didn't quite

get me like I didn't understand it you know in the same way I was like why is everyone angry you know like that was my but then after the 50th view I was like I'm so sick of this because I didn't want to like take it in it It took many years later for me to, like, go back and watch it without that, like, preconceived, but now I'm like, oh, yeah, Ernest Dickerson, baby. Yeah, dude. Second question, is there a piece of advice or maybe something you've read or maybe a reference that you can share with people that has stuck with you over the years? Doesn't necessarily have to be about cinematography.

Yeah. Yeah, I Okay, well, maybe two things Like going back to Deacons There was a book I There was a book I read A cinematography book And there was like

Just a simple interview with him And he was just like, be careful about the projects he would choose You know, because Hollywood doesn't care about talent They will often pigeonhole you you know and they only look at what you've done on what your last project was in terms of filmography so i think i think sometimes um you know when you're first starting out you want to shoot everything and i think it's important to shoot everything and get as much experience like build up your reel build up that skill set but i think you should be careful about the projects

that you that you choose you know and and and hopefully there's something that at least for me, like I try to choose projects that I connect with emotionally. Like when I read the script, if I'm not feeling something and if I can't see it, if I can't visualize it while I'm reading it, I'm not going to do a good job as a cinematographer. So I shouldn't do that project. And then lastly, I don't know, just get up and go again. You know, like just get up every day no matter what and go again and just keep working hard. And, you know, just keep showing up every single day.

Don't worry about yesterday. Don't worry about tomorrow. Like, all you have is today. I know it sounds so corny. But, I don't know, like, the more I've tried to just stay present and work hard every day, you know, the easier things to have got, you know, it's no timeline. Like, you know, it's so, you know, the timeline of your career and your experience of a cinematographer in life. is a, it's huge and it's very hard to be objective and it's really hard to kind of see it all.

And, you know, you're gonna fail and you're gonna succeed and, you know, and yeah, I don't know, just have, you just have to learn from each experience and just get up and go again and just keep trying. And just keep trying, because, you know, there's a lot of classmates I went to school with and, you know,

and it's super competitive and it's hard, you know, and you're gonna get discouraged. And I certainly got to, discouraged many many many times but you know there's I just had a little inkling of a belief that you know maybe I could do this it's the one thing I've like I don't think I've ever been more passionate about anything so yeah so my advice is if you if you want to do this don't compare yourself to anybody get up every day do your thing and just just keep just keep going just keep going and see where you end up well and you know ending with with

sir roger uh you know if if you don't have a career by whatever 30 i mean roger deacons is working into his 60s so yeah you got you got a long way to go you know you know yeah there's seriously if there's like a super young cinematographer out there listening i went to a 5 when it's 31 i graduated when i's 33 you know like i i've been a full-time cinematographer since i was 38 I'm 49 years old. Like it, you know, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. Like, just, just get after it. Like, you know, and, you know,

choose projects that you're passionate about. Try to work from an emotional and empathetic base. You know, and just don't compare yourself to anybody. Just keep going. Yeah. Well, that's a fantastic way to end it,

man. Thanks so much. Yeah. You know, the, like I said, your commercial works great. The show is great.

You're doing great. Everyone's great. Thanks, man. I really appreciate you spending the time and chat with you. That was a lot of fun. Kenny, I really enjoyed this, man. Thank you. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-AtR mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company.

You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Videocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.