Frame & Reference Podcast - 77: "Bandit" DP Alexander Chinnici

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

On this weeks episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Alex Chinnici about "Bandit." You might know Alex from his work on the extremely popular "Uncharted" fan film as well as the film "V/H/S/99." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with Alex Janice, the DP of films such as Bandit. He did one of the VHS 99 anthology films. You know, it's like that film is a bunch of smaller films. He also did the extreme fan favorite uncharted short film with Nathan Philly, and if you saw that. And we talk about all of those things. This podcast is, we do all the greats, you know. We talk about, you know, growing up very similarly the way that we both, you know, filmed as kids and stuff, which I think, you know, most people do at this point or have at this point.

You know, that's how they kind of got into it. when you're our age, 30s or so, you know, we talk about film versus digital. In this conversation, we talk a lot about how to get that specific look, which is something that I would actually like to talk to more DPs about because there's certainly an artistry with all cinematography, but I think it's, you know, I've name dropped Steve Yedlin 400,000 times on this podcast, and I will get him on this podcast to talk about it. But I think the thing that I've taken from what he's said, and I could be wrong.

That's why I'd like to have him on the podcast, is you can do anything you want. And it's knowing what you want and how to achieve that. That's the hard part. You know, it's very easy to say, oh, film makes everything look magically beautiful. And it does. But to control that beast is another matter. So we talk to that.

We talk about that. We talk about the advantages of digital. digital, of which there are many, and more and more great things. This is a really fun pod. Alex actually called in from work. He is off, or is off shooting a film right now. So he called, it was like 11 p.m. I think we talked until 1 a.m. his time, something like that.

So very appreciative for Alex's time. And I know you're going to like this one. So I'm going to let you get to liking it. Here's my conversation with Alex Janice. When you got into filmmaking, was it film that got you into it, or was there another creative thing? You know, we've had plenty of DPs that were like architects first or like, you know, did you fall into it or were you always a film guy? I guess I was always a film guy. I'm really lucky.

When I was like 11 years old, I just grabbed my dad's video camera that, you know, kind of would just holidays, like, you know, kind of capture us or whatever and just took that. And just started making movies with my friends, really silly stuff at first. And that really, and I say I'm lucky because it basically turned into a group of us that started out. actually getting very serious about making short films as early as like middle school and end into high school. And we were making like, I'm pretty proud of some of those, even though they're so rudimentary. But like, I look back now and I'm like, damn, we were doing that. We were like 15. This is crazy. So I was really lucky that I filmed like a group of kids, put our money together, got a DVX 100 and, you know, really kind of up the game, went to school

of visual arts together as a group in New York City. And that I found cinematography. and kind of went from there. So, yeah, more specifically, their question, I'd say film because I watched a lot of movies growing up, loved them, and then not sound too difficult, but, like, Apocalypse Now was the one that kind of, I think, messed me up in a good and bad way. Honestly, not a lot of people have said that. Oh, that's interesting.

I would have expected it because, well, it was interesting, because my dad showed me, my mom went on vacation, and he showed me, like, alien, aliens, Terminator, Terminator 2, Predator and Predator 2 over a weekend. And it like blew my mind and I loved it. Yeah, right? Right, he was so mad. I was six years old. He was so mad at him.

And then a while later, and he saw my life off and then a while later, I think when I was like eight, he showed me Apocalypse Now. And all I remember, the only like, I'm not going to sit here and be like, I saw him and was like, I want to do cinematography. Like, it's not what happened. Obviously, I was eight. But

I do distinctly remember being like, right there's there's action there's comedy there's there's like i just these these like genres or whatever and then i watched apocelps now and i didn't understand it and i was like what the fuck was that like i want more like i would have spicy like i want more of it you know it's like give me more and that kind of just like started the whole thing that wasn't just you know my siblings and i we watched a lot of like animation right which i love animation but you know a lot of like lion king and Deere Beast and Aladdin. And Apocalypse Now was the one where I was like, what?

So I think that and then I don't know why I grabbed my dad's camera and started running around with it. I think we were just like, we were fucking around. We were being really silly. Like I looked back at it a little while ago and it was like this straight up toilet humor. You know, like that early stuff. Yeah. When I was a kid, it was the same thing, you know, grab the handy cam, whatever. But at the time, me and my.

friends, you know, I grew up in a tiny fucking town. And, uh, so the, our two biggest influences are like action films and jackass. So we were just doing stunts and trying to replicate the matrix. You know, a friend of ours had like an airsoft gun store. And so we did a lot of that. We did it. We did a something I'm so proud of is we were like blown away by doing like, you know, I think a lot of people do like the reverse shot, you know, so we were like literally like reversing the thing. So we did a bullet time handheld is literally going over. But what we did was that we built a rig that was like two by fours and hinges. So basically what happened to was like in the trench coat.

And then as as you, I'm sorry, we started lying down. So it was like this and then into your back. Oh, wow. Okay. And then basically as you stood up, the hinges sort of like brought it back. So it like folded back onto the coat. And like our friends stood up. And then we like wrapped around and then we reversed it at and everyone in school because we showed it.

know, in school or whatever, because it was for like an English project and it was our way of not having to do an essay. You know, you have to do an essay project. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was like, which at those teachers at the time, I look back, I'm like, what a terrible. They don't say yes to that. Like, make the kid write an essay. But anyway, yeah, so everyone's freaking out in school and I had a really good moment, too,

where a teacher, he was crying, laughing, because we showed it to him before he would show it to everyone in class because he started to be like. you guys are trouble and he was crying laughing and he said to us there's no way through these laughing tears i can ever show this to anyone and he like made us re-edit it because it was so uh naughty which is amazing um so yeah that stuff was so much fun and it eventually turned into being like no it's actually try to make these good and tell stories and you know it went from there so when people say to me like how long you've been dp or like the script supervisor yesterday asked me how long you've been DEP for and I was like I was running around with

the camera when I was a kid I don't know it feels like forever professionally 10 years but like right like what to me it feels like I've been on this journey for as long as I can remember you know yeah you know there's a few things I kind of want to touch in there because there's first of all you and I have had almost the exact same kind of starting point so that's kind of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. But the thing about editing, because this podcast half is educational, half entertaining. And I think people that are listening to it who are maybe younger and don't remember those early DV days, can you explain how difficult it was to get the footage onto a computer to edit? Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I was, I was making stuff, you know, kind of late 90s,

really early 2000 and so yeah we were shooting to tape and there were different ways we either would have a deck that we would pop the tape in and you know it would we'd connect to the computer and we'd like ingest it by a movie

or final cut the seven was the one but I think I started around like five four five six something like that and you had to have firewire I did not because I was on a PC So that was a whole other adventure. My dad, so I will say this.

My dad's a photographer, which I know you can take an ODP thing, but he was a real like Mac tech guy. So I was very lucky that he was always, he's still like this too. He's just very in the know, which is so cool. I'm like, I can talk to lenses with my dad. It's crazy. Very, very lucky in that way. But, you know, we had Firewire 400 and eventually upgraded 800 and all that.

you could hook the camera directly in depending if you had the right camera and then there was i mean doing doing the tape to tape editing and all that i think all that stuff i will say quick side note for anybody who's doing it now though is um this goes to dps in general and a lot of people in film i think knowing how to edit is extremely important because it is such a massive part of the filmmaking process was saying you have to be an editor i actually find it wildly too tedious. I had to stop at some point. I was like, I don't like this at all. But to understand it is unbelievably important. And I think an incredible foundation. I would argue even maybe more important than writing. Writing is obviously very, very important as well. But a lot of the time,

there's so many roles that aren't involved in it. And storytelling, storytelling, you sit around a campfire and tell a story or whatever. But to really understand, like, sit there, shoot something, have that theoretical idea of how it will work. And then sit there, the computer and try to make it work and then you go like oh my god like i have no idea you know i think you have a major epiphany in that and i would encourage a lot of people to do that more than most things yeah no we've said that a million times uh on this podcast because i mean it the thing with being a dp especially today i feel is like the better not the better uh there are specific ways in which one can do their job that makes everyone else's job easier.

So, for instance, knowing how to edit means that you won't be giving your post-production people bullshit that they'll never use, or you can tell your director if maybe they're not as experienced as you, like, trust me, we don't need that, like, you're not going to use that, like, or that kind of conversation, at least, not that you would necessarily tell your director, like, no, no, no. But the reality is that, like, I, I'm dealing, I'm on a movie right now and this is always you you have to constantly be juggling these compromises and this time estimates and how long you're doing things and it's just this constant dance and so knowing i mean i get asked it constantly did we get that do we need this piece well how do we cut from this

to this it's it's and if you don't it's interesting because on set it is entirely it's shot listing and on set, it's entirely theoretical. And I've watched stuff I've shot that I felt very confident about and then you look at it and you're like, oh, that didn't work. Or, oh, shit, that worked a lot better than I thought it was going to. You know, like, and the more you do that, the more that you understand, because you're doing it in real life, you're doing it, you know, one step out of time. And sometimes it's hours apart or days or weeks apart, depending on what you're doing. And you have to have a brain for understanding each piece is really, it's these, It's these little puzzle pieces that you're just plucking out of the air and putting together.

And so, yeah, it's a major part of, you know, I'll sit there sometimes going, oh, shit, oh, shit, the time, the time, the time. And trying to nudge if we're spending more time on one thing versus another, which one could say, oh, a DP should just be worried about, like, you know, the look. But a big part of your job is that, making the day happen and those decisions are really important. Yeah, I mean, a modern DP these days, you know, the look stuff is almost page one, day one, and then the professional stuff is like logistics and management. A thousand percent. Management is the perfect word. I couldn't agree more. And I think that you have to like that part because operating, not operating, lighting, I'm still very,

because composition, that can start to involve a lot of different things. and some directors are more involved. And, you know, but lighting still feels like an area. Of course, they could give notes on it. It's too dark. That's too, you know, whatever. But generally speaking, it's still a little bit of, you know, magic, which I don't like that word.

But people see it as that. So they kind of leave you alone a little bit. And that's still the area that I find the most fun. And I think you have the most influence on, really, you know. That's the reward for doing all the management. yeah yeah exactly exactly yeah no no totally i had my i had a little fancy camera test uh last friday before we started because we just started on monday and um it was such a fun day and i said the crew at some point i was like it was just for like eight 10 hours we were just literally just

playing with light and stuff like that and i was like this is the best i was great like no one's coming over being like hey what do you guys you know like we were just messing around that was great it's it's the most fun part to me because it's also like it is also really theoretical you know like a camera you can tangible lenses focal lengths all type of stuff light is so much more uh complicated and and so when you get it and there's so many little like surprises and things that come up uh that i still like fall in love with where you're like oh that's what i intended but here's this other thing reflected off of this and this thing and this person's skin tone and what they're wearing and like oh shit um and i love that yeah there's there's not you know that

actually, when people talk about like the film versus digital debate, I think a lot of people, well, A, I think a lot of people confuse film with just looking professional, because if you're recall in the DV days, we wanted it to look like film because DV looked like shit. Now digital looks great. It doesn't need to look like film, like photographic, photochemical film. So I think I always try to tell people like, do you want it to look like film or do you want it to look professional? Because that's a completely different argument. But yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people, people, oh no, I've lost it all. I went too deep. You're good. You're good. I'd do this shit all the time.

You're good. The film digital thing will do that. Oh, oh, film letting you have happy accidents. I think lighting is still in that category where you can still set something up and go, that's not quite right. And then you turn a couple things off. You're like, wow, there you go. That's what we wanted versus how exact digital is. You know, you look at the monitor. That's what you're getting. There's no surprises here. Yeah. And I actually, I totally agree with that.

And I think that some pretty funky lenses can start to dip a little bit into that, but still it's a hard piece of, and I love, I'm a total major lens nerd. But I'm always testing and always finding new stuff and it's great. But yeah, I actually, I will say, though, with, you know, I think it's so great that we're now at a time where, depending on your resources and such, you can kind of there's so much to choose from from different sensor sizes

to camera bodies that do different things logistically to all the lots of stuff lenses that that is incredible what's happened with lenses and film film is viable for a lot of people I have lots of friends

at different rental houses and stuff they keep saying oh my God so many people are using film nowadays so that's all great I actually love digital though because I like I like getting really precise

with my image and I like dialing in I find with cinematography there's just constant layers like everything from I mean I could list off a hundred things from you know frame rate shutter Kelvin tint filtration lens what stop them at the lens with you know like I could go on and on what stuff everything lighting what my film is what my ratio is you know good I could go crazy with it and so what I love about digital actually is that in film's great obviously I learned on it that's where film school I shot a ton of of it and I love it. It's still great. But I love in digital how specific I can get. And I think a lot of people over romanticized film and there's still, I'll put it this time, I'm almost like, I'm almost like I did that in film school and I had that time where I was like, oh my God, it's amazing. And I feel a lot of people are having that moment. And that's very special. But given what's happened with development

and what you can do and stocks and the actual treatment to film that has kind of gone heavily by the wayside and people doing it heavily in the DIY anyway I feel often that

like the Kodak sorry but the Kodak 529 look that everybody's doing it's a look and that's great but I feel that with the certain tools that I put in place I can kind of take it further I can make it more unique.

It's kind of the Steve Yedlin, like, authorship thing that I adhere to. I think I can get further with it. I can get more specific. I can make it more mine. I can make it more what's right for the project, you know, and so I keep falling back into it because I keep going, well, I have more control, and that's the whole point. For me, at least, for other people, they want to have that surprise. I'm, I think, a bit more of a professional in that way where I want to,

know what I'm getting, make sure everybody agrees with what I'm getting, and just constantly make it better rather than be surprised by it. That's exciting, but it feels a little, what's the right word? Hands off the wheel. Yeah, and that's appropriate sometimes, but it feels a little, I was going to say, youthful, that's not the right word I'm looking for, elementary, you know, in a way, that that's what you're looking for. For me, I'm working with Paramount right now in this film, and it's like, that's not the job, you know? Which, again, people would disagree,

but that's kind of where I come from it at, you know, with the DIT and CDLs and all that stuff. I'm like, I don't just, I'm not just getting what's out of the box. I'm taking it on a long journey to make it specific and unique. Because that's what I want as an audience member. I want to look at something that I'm like, that's very special and I'm going to sit down and want to watch that not what I've seen a million times you know are many with cooks yeah it's great and it's great and it's great and if you're young then like who gives like fucking do this whatever who cares like just go do that just do do do do do do but now I'm I'm grateful and I'm fortunate that I'm out of place now where um you know spending a lot of money I've got it I've got to I've got to I've got not an important job that I have to make sure that these things are happening.

And I also just think it's more exciting because I'm adding those layers and I'm sending it in directions and making it something that people, you know, are like, I don't know what, why, but this makes me feel this way. And I think digital actually lets me do that more because I'm doing all sorts of halation and foam grain shit later and I'm adding all these layers, even in color, that I just have more control over. How much of it do I want? Well, I like that.

I've named drop Steve Yedlin a million times on this podcast. Hopefully, you know, the powers that be will allow him to, we can talk about it. But yeah, yeah, after going through all of his, you know, minor dissertations, I'm like, I kind of fell to the same thing where I was like, all right, they're, and it doesn't matter what camera. No, it's the point. You don't want to go to like 2008, but like modern cameras, any modern camera you can art direct to make look the way you're intending. and yeah that's the point that's the point yeah yeah to your point about being youthful I think going back to what we were talking about about like how difficult it was to get db onto your computer I think because it was that difficult it took a lot of motivation and so you either

really wanted to do it or you didn't and I think now it actually has become so easy that people can get and generally things are easy today not it's not easy for everyone I'm not trying to be an asshole but in this specific thing no I know what you mean I know you mean yeah so it can be easy to get frustrated quickly because you're like there's one button that's keeping me from doing this and I can't find you know yeah yeah yeah yeah so when you say like go go do just like keep go film it's like you you almost have to do more work because it's so easy because there was way more time dedicated to other stuff right now you can literally just like as you said pick up your cell phone and and shoot so you're like oh fuck now I have to spend all my time writing right right which I do

not envy i i don't i don't write and uh i'm good on that one um yeah that that seems rough but uh no i agree with you and i think that this kind of no there's a there's a bit of a no excuse thing however i i trust me to anybody listening i i know how hard it is i've done oof um the lowest smallest and the most difficult i could tell some crazy stories um that i shouldn't tell but you know it's real hard out there but but the point is if you if you want to you you can you really really can you know were you a big uh because this kind of flows into something we've talked about a lot is like were you a big um special features person growing up yeah oh yeah i still i still to this day like any of the disney gallery stuff that's coming out now or even the

The Batman on HBO Max, I was like, two minutes. Like, come on, guys. Like, I want more than this. But I'll sit there because my big thing is I love pausing. And I'll do, again, I do this all the time and just sort of study, you know, they have just that one way. They're always like one or two seconds. And I'm like, come on.

Like, this is what we want. And I'll sit there and look at kind of what's happening. And I love that education. But yeah, I mean, so my wife's the director and she is, we're both just, major nerds and film nerds and love all this stuff and so we watched right before matrix four just came out we rewatch matrix um revisited i think is what it's called do you know about this the documentary yeah yeah okay is that what it's called matrix well uh so i did the same thing but we i didn't my girlfriend is not in the film industry at all but we yeah we watched one two

three and animatrix right right but there was also there's there's the there's the there's the doc that came out after the first movie and I bring that up because I must have watched it but yeah no it was but it was but it was great because it was a it was an actual like DVD that they sold not as like a box that it was a separate I see you know I I wore the shit out of that thing like it had like the fucking rings on it you know this was the BTA it was the it was an it's a feature long we we rewatched it's on iTunes um that's where we found it and it was great um it's a 90 minute doc just about the making of the Matrix

which again I saw that when I was 12 and that movie shook me that movie fucked me up like I walked in as one when people talk about Star Wars in 1977 I'm like that must have been what that was like because I that movie completely blew my mind

and I've seen it in theaters a bunch since when they did the Dolby Vision and all that they went to that one and everything and oh man when that helicopter smashes into the glass by the end of that moment

with the rope and everything like that I can just feel the audience like flipping out you know you just feel that energy in the room and it's like man they don't make action scenes like this anymore like this is I can feel it in the room that the people are salivating

and hungry for a scene like this you know that they're just they're reacting in a different way their eyes aren't glazed over like some of the shit that they watch these days but um like the Matrix 4 Yeah, rest in peace.

I liked it for what it was. Yeah, that was rough. I actually wanted to kind of dive into some of your work because they email me to have you on about Bandit, which we can get into a little bit, which I can't say. Sure, sure. Yeah, whatever you want to talk about.

But I guess we'll start, because we're kind of still talking about cameras, is VHS-99. Sure. has a very specific look. And so the question is, after we've just had all this conversation, did you shoot that on DV or was that digital and then transfer? Sure, sure.

Yeah, so, no, that's a fun one to talk about. So I just did that back in the spring. It wasn't long ago. And I only did one piece. It was Johannes Roberts' suicide bit is what it's called. And for anybody listening to sorority girls who they eventually end up in like a coffin and all that. So it was the only piece that I did on that one. And this is just different DP and director per short.

And that was interesting because I basically, so I interviewed for it and I said to them, I was like, I only want to do this if you guys want to go all the way because I don't see the point otherwise, you know? Like I read the script and I was like, because it's basically supposed to be a bunch of sorority girls in 1998, like walking around with a camcorder and following each other. And so I actually, what I ended up doing was I looked into a little bit more. I was looking with mini DV or DV. And I was like, oh, man, getting picture to village down, you know, getting this footage in and everything like that. I was like, what a pain in the ass.

So what I decided to do, which I think it was a good compromise because I actually read reviews. And thankful almost like every review was like, suicide bid was the most like committed and everything, which I took as a really big. compliment because it was very important to me because I think in found footage the scariest stuff is the stuff that makes your brain kind of go like is this real like you like you know like starts to trick you because I don't really like found footage and I was even sort of I was a bit pretentious towards it when it came my way and I'm so glad I was I was wrong though because when I did it I loved it and I thought it was so much harder than I ever thought because it was like I had to unlearn everything I've ever learned um I just set my ego at the doors like all the tricks and

things I fell on to were just like done out like out the window and that was really cool and it was cool too because in 1999 I was running around with my friends making movies with little camcorders and it was like a full circle back around which was so neat but real quick camera wise but I did was that Sony still makes little handicams right and so what was important to me was that I was like okay this is going to work because I just need the weight and the movement the thing on your wrist. I need the small sensor and whatever else is going on there in terms of the little horrible, tiny little zoom lens that's this big.

But I've got SD cards. So boom, everybody's happy. You know, post house is happy too because they have an actual physical thing. And I've got a little, little mini-hdeme that I can go out to the Terodeck and I can send a village. And so my little camera package was like this big, a little flip-out screen, and they put a little fanny pack on me and we ran the cable and the H-TMI held up

which I was shot. I thought I was going to change anything out like every two hours. But it held up. The AC did a great job and I had my little Teradic thing, you know, sticking out and we, you know, a little SD cards and then we transferred it to VHS and back again afterwards to really give it the final you know.

And but it had the depth of the field. it had all just kind of deteriorating and it had that weight and that feel and so it was really fun I would have been fun to go even further with it but when I really looked at it again that's kind of how I am I was just like all right I think I can weigh both

I don't need to overly romanticize this and make everyone's lives incredibly difficult I can kind of find a good middle ground here and I think I did I think it you know it looks it looks like a camera of that era you know I had a 4K mode and I said fuck that and went to you know 1080 mode.

Like any of that kind of stuff to sort of just like bring it down, you know? Well, now I have three questions. But in your, in that sense, like the, in any shoot, the battle of logistics and creativity is always going to come up. You know, if you're shooting a documentary, it's almost all logistics. You're shooting a, you know. And so that, I think that is something that, as you were saying, only comes by doing a lot. You can't really teach anyone where that balance is.

It's all from experience. Totally. Totally. Yeah, which is, again, why you just have to do it because then you figure it out and maybe you get slapped occasionally or whatever. You know, you get burned or it's a reality. But it is the fun of it. It's sort of you have to like that part of it if you want to be in filmmaking.

It's not in a vacuum. You have to enjoy. Honestly, the simplest way I can put it is it's just problem solving. But it's really what it is at the end of the day. And so how do you handle that? You know, how do you react? Something that Adam Savage said that I really like is like when you come up against stuff like that, usually the problems you're trying to solve hack off a bunch of branches off your decision tree.

And it makes things a lot easier actually. Instead of freaking out what you can't do, you realize what options you have and go with the best. Totally. And I said that just even in prep a couple, you know, a couple weeks ago on this. There were some, you know, just as usual, oh, we can only do this. We can only do that. And I said to a few people a few times, I was like, kind of makes it simpler in a way because now I'm almost just, I don't want to walk out into a field and have nothing.

And I'm just like, you know, I think visionary directors, writers can do that. For me, I'm a type where, you know, I want to walk into a space and understand. I can very, I did a lot of little doc shooting in my 20s. And what that taught me is a good note for younger people, too, is, if you what's great about doc stuff is that you end up at a location interview or B-roll or whatever and you have to immediately decide like where you should go where you could shoot because you oh we only have this person this amount of time so with the skill that it gave me is I can walk into a room and extremely fast I can tell you the best looking part of that space yeah may not be the most

appropriate right like it made that oh that doesn't really work because of X Y and Z but I can tell you like the prettiest um You know, like what is going to be the best looking and why? And that's a really good skill to have. So if I'm in a situation where I'm sort of confined, it does make it easier. It may not be better, but certainly makes it easier because it's just like, okay, got it. I only have this. I only can do that.

And like you just piece it together, which I value, I think I have a very good skill at that because I've worked on my budgets have gotten bigger and everything like that. But I started for a long time and really low budget stuff. And now I just have a skill of like I can do a lot with very, very, very, little, which I also think is a good thing that people should learn how to do. Because no matter what, you still find yourself in that position sometimes where the hub is broken. Everybody's freaking out. It's like, hold on, that and that, this go. You know, like simple. Totally. In what ways did using the little handy cam inform what you are allowed to do in terms of lighting and, you

know, using modern tricks and stuff like that? Because I assume if you lit the thing, beautifully and then shot with that camera that could even look fake yeah yeah modern sensors tend to be kind of forgiving totally absolutely the dynamic range is of a lot lot less so everything's kind of getting really dumbed down and thoffened and and you know i had to you know uh uh knock down the highlights raise you know raise the shadows that everything just had to you know come in there um which was a fun challenge uh it was just sort of just tweak tweaking tweaking tweaking getting there i actually with which bHS 99 that was something i decided to do that people may like it may not but i actually did decide to make the lighting feel

horror so that was sort of a little you know i decided i was like okay the camera and the conceit and everything feels real but then we'll more because we're in a graveyard at that part of it and everything i got then i kind of pushed it and went like spooky hard our graveyard lighting was because I was like, okay, by now we're 10 minutes into this and we get it. We're like, we're in this. And eventually a creature shows up and everything like that. And I'm like, I have to justify that and sort of, you know, pull you into that. And it's up to have people to decide if, you know, they like that or not.

But it was starting a little more realistic and then going that way. But what was fun too, though, was, I mean, Well, the challenge was I had the light almost 270, oh, you know, not necessarily 360, but that's always really hard. And, you know, make that works with looking different, you know, I'm going from here to over there and all that type of stuff. But, um, but yeah, I mean, there were, we had one moment where I was like, shit, we're going to turn around.

They actually cut it out, but I was like, they're going to, we're going to turn around and we're going to completely see all this lighting. And this girl is drunk and she almost like falls to the director and I realized that, And I was like, oh, I can almost like trip with her and basically like look down and then come back up. And so I did that to basically avoid seeing the lighting, which you could never do in any cinematic world. But I could justify basically like, we're walking over this thing. And so sort of like look down almost at my feet and then come back up when I would, because no, if I just did this, I would have saw it. But I did like that.

Well, because you're also a character in that sense, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am playing, it's a bunch of sorority girls, so the actresses were really great. They're really funny, and it was really cool. I worked so closely with them in a way that I haven't before, which is really fun. But they named me and everything.

I was Lindsay, the other sorority girls, so, you know, because I was looking at the camera and all that. And that's what we realized in rehearsals, because we were going to do, they were going to, you know, I was sort of like, well, maybe do they operate, and they could pass off to me, but then Johan is very understanding. He was like, you know, I don't want them to be destroyed.

Yeah, well, yeah, right, where she was. But I don't want to be, I don't want them to be distracted by the camera. Totally makes sense. And then literally, we did one take during a rehearsal, and then right as we were due the second one, we almost at the same time said it, we were like, just being off-camera person. You just never see. And she's just the girl who, maybe she's taking the video class.

And she, like, you know, that's what we justified. And it was fun in that way because then I could, you know, I could do little interactions with them and they can make faces and all that, you know. So it was good. Yeah. My, uh, I had a couple friends. Do you ever hear of five second films? Yes. Yeah. So, uh, those are a handful of buddies of mine. And, uh, they made this movie called Dudeboro Party Massacre 3. Great. There's not a not a one in two, right? Yes. I love it. Awesome.

And so that it's a fantastic. I think you can get it on. like shutter one of those like horror streamers but um cool but they yeah they shot red dragon and then ran it through a VCR and then beat the VCR with baseball bats as they were recording out it's a great little film and then they put

the conceit of that movie is that it was only shown once on a local station so the tape you're watching is some teenage boys recording of it so there's the tail end and the opening end of commercials.

Awesome. And as the movie progresses, those commercials get more and more demented, you know? Love it. I love that kind of stuff. That's so much fun. Yeah, that's the, I wish I did a little bit more of that when I was younger to kind of more that horror, absurdist stuff because now that I've started dipping my toes into that world, it's so much fun.

I love it. It's like a lot less rules, you know. more expressionism, which I prefer over realism, kind of just theatrical and just absurd. I love it. I think it's great. Well, that's kind of a nice dovetail into the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, because I didn't know you shot this until I checked your IMD be real fast, but you shot the Uncharted short. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was really fun.

And actually Bandit is the same director. Oh, cool, excellent. As that. Yeah, that's how we connected. good. So, especially now that we've had a uncharted film that has come out since then, um, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily the better of the two. Uh, I, uh, I, uh, I want to, I just kind of wanted to talk to you about like now, how, when was that, like, four years ago? Something like that. Yeah. So around there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, first of all, like, tell me how, because I know you guys had a, um, kind of a, uh, shortened schedule on that. You only had like two weeks to shoot the thing.

And it seems very simple. No, I think we shot three or four days. It was crazy short. It was crazy short. Yeah. Yeah, three or four. I think it was, it was three days. And our fourth day was kind of a half day.

Like it was a way to go really far out somewhere, drive really far, shoot just for a little bit, and then come back. So it was really like three and a half days. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really compressed. Because that short is, like, I think every film student watched that and went, oh, fuck, I can, I can do that. And then you see the behind-the-scenes footage, you're like, oh, no, no, no.

There's way more going on than just a bunch of guys hanging out in a fancy house. Yeah, and we spent, I mean, it was, there was solid, I mean, I actually think for what we did, the budget is crazy, crazy low. but it was, you know, it was more than what students or people in their early 20s can spend, you know, if they're on dying. It's, it's, you know, but still incredibly ambitious. Alan pulled a lot of favors, too. Yeah, it's a cool story. He, I mean, he's told it before, but he basically, he was making a movie in Canada, and it fell through super last minute, some sketchy producer stuff.

Which is just, yeah, it was really kind of devastating. So he basically pivoted because he's a really smart guy and he's a real he's turned into a really good friend of mine. And from Uncharted to Bandit, I watched him in both situations like persevere. And he's a great example of like, especially as a director, like never give up, never take no for an answer, go, go, go. So impressive in that way of just like picking up and doing it. But, so yeah, he had a connection to Nathan and made it happen.

And then his DP, who had done stuff in Canada with, got a directing gig and wanted to direct and went off. And so two weeks before called me up. We had a mutual friend and was like, I just lost not only my DP, but all my equipment because he had everything. And he's like, so I'm fucked. But everyone speaks highly of you, whatever I hear you, you know, blah, blah, blah. whatever, let's, you know, you want to do this with me.

You know, it's a video game thing, but I can't tell you what it is. But Nathan Dillian's in it. And I'm a video game nerd, but literally on the phone in that moment, I was like, oh, so you're doing uncharted? And he's like, how'd you know? And I was like, it's Nathan Philly. Like, he's a video game. He's the only one. He's Nathan Drake.

Yeah, I was like, I was like, that's got to be it. And he was like, yeah, shit. And he was like, all right, so we're going to get along. And, and so, yeah, no time. I mean, it was less than two weeks. Lots and lots of favors. some miracles pulled, and, I mean, we had a blast. It was like, you know, and it's funny.

It's still people love it. People talk about it constantly. It was really, really cool to do, you know, kind of an action thing. I would be, I don't mean to be negative, but I'd be lying if I didn't say there's so much more I wanted to do with it. Oh, sure. So much more, you know. But still, it's cool. Yeah, yeah.

you know, a lot of people are, I appreciate the positivity and the love for it. And it's funny when the new movie came out, still people on Twitter and everything. No matter what it comes, he finds it and he shows me, he sends me stuff. And he's just like, people are always, like, championing it in the way where they're like, fuck this, this rules. It's like, that's kind of awesome because it was, for all intents of purposes, it was pretty scrappy, actually, you know? Well, that's, well, first of all, I think that speaks to the important.

of casting because you had the perfect selling in uh stepan lang and you had the perfect you know what everyone wanted uh nathan drake to be and shit like that and you see that in you know that's why fincher always gets away with you know being like oh he's the best in the world it's like he's actually pretty i don't want to say simple but yeah paired down it's his casting is always perfect well yeah i mean i can tell you i can tell you as a dp right now that you're when you now that I'm very lucky that I've filmed some really kind of wonderful faces, ones that people are excited about and incredibly charming human beings. I had this really big epiphany once where I was lighting a stand in and I didn't like it. And I was frustrated. And I was like, man, we got

to go. So just call first team in. Let's go. And it was Chase Crawford. He comes in and he sits down into the frame and I was like, this shot looks great. And I was like, um, right. There you go. I was like, that's pretty people are pretty. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really funny.

And it's true. I mean, Josh Dume Allen and bandit's like, totally, I can't do anything wrong with that guy. He's, he's unbelievable. Literally, Clark Kent just like, you know, right there. So yeah, no, no, no, totally. And I said that to Allen, too. He was, he's a nervous.

He's like a little anxious, he would say, this is not me saying this, but he would say he's a, what does he say? He's an anxious Jew or whatever. He's like, he's an anxious little ball. And I was like, dude, we're the underdog here, but the uncharted thing. I was like, people root for the underdog. You're giving them exactly what they want. So any of our little faults or compromises that we had to make, they just see him and he's doing his thing. They're ecstatic, you know?

And I knew I knew that we had that no matter what. Um, so that was really cool. And yeah, it's true. I mean, you put, you put those people in the frame and you're like, shot's great now, you know. Yeah. What were some of the, what were some of the, uh, absolutely worth it? Um, yeah. What were some of the things that, uh, kind of helped you, or maybe even some lessons that you learned, um, on that, uh, abbreviated schedule that like really made sure that you got what you needed done. Like what kind of things would, did maybe you want to do but couldn't or maybe some, uh, older tricks maybe that you leaned on from the indie days as it were yeah um well well this is a good this is a good example i mean the most frustrating thing that happened on that was when they're when they're in the big room the main scene when he's in the chair that drove me crazy because i had this whole michael bay shafts of light real moody luck that i set up and everything and it was you know you have to rely on haze for that to see the beams and two weeks before, once I came on, can we use haze in this place? Can we use haze in this place?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We get there right after we're done lighting. No, actually, you can't. You can't do it. Oh, my God. Switch everything to like soft, more natural lighting, which is what's in it. Now we're behind. And which I hate, I do not like being behind, you know, in that instance. And then the same guy comes up to me and he's like, oh, yeah, by the way, I was wrong. You can use haze. And what am I going to take another, like, hour or whatever to switch off? that i was like we're shooting right i'm gonna see you in another lifetime in the evil tie like i'm gonna like you're done to me but you know um so that was a bummer but you see it in the library when he goes in the library and i felt like a beam coming through i was like that's at least i got my

that's what uncharted should look like um but in terms of in terms of dealing with the truncated time we had this whole he he jumps out the window and then he you know it's the fame the one that everybody talks about where we do the video game shot where he's on the ground and we come up behind and it's the third person shot and he shoots and we do the snap zooms and everything that actually that was the writer who came up with that a few days before we were freaking out because we were like oh my god we're thinking of it so much more traditionally you know this setup this set up this set up this set up this set up this set up and we're like we're going to have two hours to do something that people spend like days and days and days on um what the hell would be going to do even with two cameras

And it was the main writer who was like, what if you guys did like kind of a video game shot? And that's what then I was, it was sort of a vague comment, but it was like, we just took that. And then it was not only to follow, which we could use Steadicam. Nick Muller, who's a fantastic operator, who did Strange Things Season 4, he's amazing. We did that, but then I can't remember who came up with that,

but one of us came up with the idea of also doing, you know, you know, when you pull up, the camera moves inwards as well. And so then that was using the zoom lens as well and knit the setty cam operator sort of offsetting around the shoulder. So that whole section we got done in a handful of takes, which saved a ton of time. Obviously more to like get it and that choreography, but ooh, it felt so good when you got it.

And that's kind of, that's arguably one of the money moments of that. you know we did with the widescreen bars go up and everything you know that was that was really um and nathan was doing all the little movements and everything so that was that was sort of i think the highlight for everybody um even when the you know i love when he runs when he goes by and then the jeet pulls up when we kind of do the zoom towards it almost like it's like now we're in cutscene time you know like that's like how they do the camera like kind of pull away from your third person body and like Coming up with stuff like that was really fun, but also extremely a lot of, like, the sun setting, shit. Like, you gotta go.

And it was that hectic for sure. Yeah, it's, those kind of gigs, like, definitely have to make you feel more like what you imagined filmmaking was going to be like when you were younger. Yeah. Versus, you know, doing, in my case, like, industrials. yeah i know i trust me i've done a million of those i know exactly what you mean it's uh i show you on that yeah is there uh you know this is a random question but um uh besides god of war and the last of us can you think of a video game that's actually pretty cinematic in your mind that's a really good question because obviously uncharted is like the like playing movie um

I'm well no that doesn't really I was just I'm a massive Final Fantasy specifically seven that was like you know that did you play my world oh yeah the remake is excellent yeah I'm I'm played I'm one of those there's a lot of us but I'm one of those I've played Final Fantasy seven too many times but I yeah I mean if you actually play it it it's not especially the original it's not I wouldn't call it cinematic but it has cinematic potential and I love thinking of like a very very of that but yeah no um that's a good point i think the call duty game certainly like attempt to do the like major major like michael bay type thing you know and they do they do kind of go down that road and they can be they can be quite cinematic but yeah i think you picked i think you picked the right ones the last of us god of war i mean naughty dog really started it right like that was kind of i guess the others are all yeah they kind of really not got a war but but i think the new god of war took from that you know i played all the old god of wars and all that and they weren't nearly as much but the new one with the sort of uncut camera and everything was definitely from the naughty dog school

and i think that they they stepped in at some point it maybe it was last of us one maybe it was a little bit before um and we're like merged sort of those genres in a way or mediums i should say um and i don't think anybody else has done it as you know the the batman and Arkham games have had their moments. I suppose. But again yeah, but again, I don't, I think you're right in that. It's uncharted, God of War,

and Last of Us are the three ones that like do stand. They're another level than everybody else. Yeah. It's funny, you know, I'm sure you played Half-Life. Like that was the one that everyone was like, oh, that's a movie. Half-Life's a movie. Yeah. If you're going to play that again, you're like, not. No, yeah.

I think anybody, a young person now playing Half-like, like what? Like, you know, but no, Half-Life 1 and 2 was that, oh, man, so good, which I want to play Half-Life Alex so bad. I know. I can't get a headset. I just not going to spend that kind of money. So for me, if the PS5, the PSVR 2 does it, which I'm hopeful, still be expensive, that all do. But I'm not buying a PC and a full headset.

Like, I'm not spending $2,000 plus dollars by more. to play a video game. I can't. You know what sucks is. You're the only person on this podcast that I can say this to and you'll understand. Yeah. I played professional Counterstrike 1.5

and 1.6. Hell yeah. And I was like, oh, I got to stop doing this so I can go to college and do a real job. And it's like, fuck, man. Like, that's the one game. Like, there's like three games in the world that have like million, 20 million dollar prize pots

and like Counterstrikes one of them. no when we were when we were growing up i mean that i don't think in a million years i would ever thought esports and the amount of money and everything that is a new which like cool like everyone you do your thing but it's wild how much that turned into i'll never forget we were at um my my wife had a short film premiere at i think it was twitch con and i had no idea what i was like i don't know what twitch is i don't know what any of this is i felt it was like a moment. I was probably 30

or 2830 and I was like oh I'm getting old like not old but you know I was like I'm not in touch anymore well because I just I would walk into these rooms and it's funny people will be listening to this laughing I mean because they're like yeah this is what we do but now now I get it and I think it's cool

and everything like that but I walk into a room and there's a big old projector and a video game playing and just a shit load of people just watching a video game and I was like what the fuck and then We went into the stadium, and they had everybody out there playing, and it was like a big sports game, and there's teams and lights and everything going, and I was like, I even, this is insane. I was like, what is this? And now it's, it's so much more like big and normal.

I think that was, that was still, it was still, I want to say it wasn't underground at all, but it was sort of somewhat earlier than what it is. It sort of ramped up more now, and I get it now. I played a bunch of Call Duty Warzone during pandemic during like true lockdown. And I'll still even go check out some streamers that are just like, they're so good at what they do that it's like, how could you not enjoy watching someone just incredibly good at something, you know? For me, it was when Valorant came out and everyone was like, oh, it's the exact mechanics of Counterstrike just with a little extra. And I was like, okay. And I played the beta. And so now obviously there's so many people that are good at Valerant.

but even my decrepit, you know, 1998 style of playing, like I was smoking kids because they were all coming from like Call of Duty and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a big ego boost early pandemic. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. No, no, Call, Duty, I, you know, it's, you're not, you're going to get smoked in that world, for sure. You need some real skill. Well, and to your point about, like, the, you know, big arenas and stuff. Like, I remember we used to meet it like a Radisson Inn. you know for like 200 bucks yeah come on man um anyway back to back to filmmaking uh i did want to ask two uh two things i don't know what order i'm going to do it until i say i guess we'll

start i was looking at your website uh and you have three reels up but they haven't been updated since 2019 and and that is not to say anything about you but it's something that you've brought up a lot about on this podcast is reals are kind of well correct me if you think this is correct but it seems like reels are kind of dead like no one really it's like maybe someone to look at yeah it's an interesting debate and i i've had this conversation a bunch recently because again i'm sitting there going like oh 2019 it's been a while it's actually funny i i made that very clear on them recently because i wanted because i hadn't rewashed them in a while and i rewashed them and i was like ugh um which i think everybody does their own work in a way

So it's interesting. So there's a lot of DPs I know who are peers of mine, who are very, very talented and on their way to being quite successful and will be very successful. And a bunch of them do not have reels up and haven't had reels up for a while, kind of doing what everybody's doing now, the Lex-elected work thing, kind of curated and all that. So my thinking is this, and I could be totally wrong, I have no idea.

It's my thinking is, and I spoke to my agent about this recently, is I sort of sit there and go, it's up to the person who's coming and decide what they want to do. They can look at my Instagram. They can look at my selected work. They can go specifically and look at automotive. They can look at music video.

They can look at commercial. They can find something specific that they want. They can be referenced to something specific. They could look at reels. They go, my IMDB. It's, I'm, I totally get the argument that someone would go, what I want to control, what only I want them to see.

Sure. I actually would argue I don't think I'm at that point yet where I can just be like here's this stuff and only look at that which I think sounds like a really privileged nice place to be but for me I'm sort of looking at it as because again I spoke to my agent and a bunch of other people and they're like no we get requests we still get requests for reels which is interesting to me because because I've had this conversation with people like you were going like oh you don't have to do reels anymore well then that's just what I've heard like I I still keep my real updated once a year because I am not getting good jobs yet. I'm terrible about it. I do it like every two, three years. And I'm going to, I'm actually, I'm going to do it very, very shortly. It's also tough for me now because I'm doing a lot. I'm doing a lot more features these days.

And that's commercials, whatever. It's how I pay the bills. And I've been very lucky that commercials and music videos kind of like come to me. And I've kind of gotten into that rhythm now, whereas I'm like hustling on the feature front. But I don't get that, I don't get the ability to release. that stuff for a year and a half, two years. I mean, I've had one movie. It took four years to come out.

You know, so updating that reel is very difficult. It takes a long time. I've had shorts that people like don't want to release still. You know, stuff like that is stuff that I'm really proud of. So that's a difficulty there. But anyway, I think the point is that there really is no answer. And it just depends on this difference between being like heavily curated. I only want you to see this.

which I think artistically is the better way to go. But I see a lot of this stuff when it comes to filmmaking and art and craftsmanship and DPEing specifically. I see so much of it as just like a major privilege that I'm just like, you're lucky that you're in this position or you're that position or whatever. For me, I'm less pretentious about the jobs that I do when I choose. I obviously like to pick things that I'm excited about or whatever. But like if we want to get really real, this is really good for a lot of young. your people, you've got to make sure you're in a financial, healthy place. I'm a freelancer,

you know what I mean? And it's like, why would I turn down work? I mean, there's a lot of people in this business who are independently wealthy. I'm not like that. I don't want equipment. I'm not going to sort of take myself away from jobs. You know what I mean? Like, why would I do that? I've also, I've experienced highs and lows. I've experienced dry spells, you know what I mean? So I look at the website and everything else as, like, kind of why not? I don't know that it's hurting me, which again, someone else could disagree and say, no, no, no, man, cut your, cut your shit down to a third and make it really specifically this in just what you want to shoot.

I think that sounds so great in theory, but that also sounds like, I don't know what world that person's living in because it's not the one I'm living in, you know, and so, and again, I'm very, very lucky I'm working on, I'm working on a Paramount movie right now. I just did another movie this summer that was awesome. I got another movie in January. I'm shooting feature films making a living. Like, who, life is good. I'm very, very, very lucky.

But a long-minute way of saying, like, they're just there. And people want to watch them and they don't want to watch them, you know. Yeah, because the way it was, well, and it's also good that you bring up, like, talking to your manager about that. Because I think that's another thing that people don't, people who don't have teams with them, you know, management or agents or whatever. Yeah. don't know what they're looking for and so if your if your agents like well reels are good

selected works good leave it all up there then that's like good advice for anyone who's listening to people saying fuck a reel yeah no I mean and again it's all this stuff is all like you have to decide for yourself and go with your gut but her point simply was

producers and directors request them and I was like good enough for me done you know they can I think it's insane that people would, on the flip side, we're deciding that DPs should be hired and they're great from still images from their work on Instagram,

on a terribly compressed thing that you're looking at this big on your phone and it's a still image and their job is motion and cutting and editing. Like, what? And don't be wrong. Reels are highly manipulated too and only so helpful.

I've said, my wife's the director and she's like, you should watch the first 10 minutes of someone's, you know, film. You know, you could, sure, you should watch all of it or whatever, but like, that'll tell you a hell of a lot more than any of this other stuff. And if you're actually thinking of hiring somebody, you should probably commit and put in that amount of time. So I don't know. I just try not to be too specific. And, and hey, man, if I could, if I was in the position where I never needed to update any of this stuff and I was just like doing my thing, then like, that

sounds great. But, but I think, I think I'd be foolish to make that a, because I find in this industry that you got to like just keep keep going and and keep pushing forward has been because I've taken my foot off to be like let's see and it's oh no that was a mistake yeah like you have to keep pushing so and whatever that may may mean well and to your point about like being at that point where you don't have to update anything I've interviewed 80 people now, you know, from, you know, Jeff Cronin went all the way down to, you know, filmmakers and stuff like that. And I think maybe three of them didn't have a web, Jeff being one of them, like don't have websites. Yeah, his first feature was called Fight Club.

It's like one of the, it's a masterpiece. I don't use that word lightly too. I do not use that word lightly. That movie's a fucking master. I met him. When he was with Mark Romanette, before that yeah oh yeah no no he's he's prone him with is brilliant uh i was at the after party at the asc awards and just ended up in sort of just a huddle of people whatever and he was to the left of me and someone was like oh jeff meet alix whatever he was like hey i'm jeth and i was a little drunk and i was like i know who you are i was like i know exactly who you i was like you're fucking you you you mean a lot of me like your work is i mean fight club again in 1999, like that movie.

My cousin showed me that in high school. Good story about that one. VHS showed me Fight Club, and my mom stopped us and was like, you're going home, and it was halfway through the movie. And I went to high school. It was my older country, he's like basically my older brother. And I went to high school, went back to, or whatever. I think I was in ninth or 10th grade.

And I was just telling my friends all day. I was like, I saw this insane movie. Like, it's incredible. And I didn't finish it or whatever. And little did I know when I was. watched it later that it gets more insane exactly yeah yeah so so yeah I love that movie and yeah he's he's brilliant but yeah of course no he doesn't you know it's but it's more you see those it's yeah him who doesn't so anyone who's listening like yeah unless you're there

go ahead and keep your website up you know people are going to look at it yeah yeah and I think it's you know it's again the guy who shot game with drones he has a website Greg middleton great guy, he's got a website. Yeah, yeah, very successful. And I'm sure he's still grinding, you know? Just shot Moon Night. There's so much content. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with Andrew Drew's Palermo.

I could never say his name right. He was a sweet guy. I met him a bit too. I'd say the thing about being in L.A. too, by the way. Side thing in terms of there is that, like, it's, man, it's caught out with Steve Yedlin. We brought up him before. He's awesome.

Like, they're just there, and you interact with people. And it's really cool to have those conversations and just interact with people who are sometimes your peers and sometimes just add another level that you just are so excited to sort of interact with them. And it makes it all feel so much more real and human in a way, too, because I kind of say things that you're like, that's how I feel. And that in and of itself is really, really, really, really nice and healthy. And I think worth it if you're really committed to this. yeah that was so i live in l a i live on the west side and uh yeah my first interview was actually with uh well my second interview was with um josh richards and so he uh about halfway through it he was like you know what like this is kind of this feels nice because i guess dps don't really talk to each other

and i was like you know uh i certainly don't know any i know like three like in my friend's circle you know everyone else is like directors and stuff like that i talked to so many i don't know what is but I I'm really lucky in that I recommend that people do so in LA you can go to the ASC

clubhouse or whatever and like that's you're going to find them or synagir or whatever NAB yeah I think I think also the the rental houses too and Instagram's helped a lot but I have a lot of DP friends that are peers that um I mean

or in soft or Julius Swain like people who you know, and this, I mean, Mike Reyes and Dylan Schneider and, oh, man, there's so many, I'm not going to remember right now. But anyway, people who probably, people listen. It's not in the words. It's fine. Yeah, right, right, right. I got my list. But people probably listening going, going, oh, John Chima's a really good friend of mine, like people that are like, you know, oh, I follow them and stuff like that. And we all talk. We all interact and do lunch steps together and get coffee.

beers and tell war stories and sort of just share stuff and ask each other questions. I love that camaraderie, though, and that's sort of like... Totally. Routing for one another and then also going, I've never done this before, or I don't know what to do here and sort of like sharing. And some people aren't, some people are a little more like, you know, they don't want to share. And there's a bunch of people that are so open and I try to be as well.

It's going to be really supportive in that way, passing jobs onto each other, you know, stuff like that. That is, I really value the DP community, I think, is amazing. At least the one that I've interacted with, I think, is really, really special. Yeah. Yeah, community is so important. Oh, yeah. But before I let you go, I did want to, because this was actually the second question after

the Reels was, I got to interview Katie Williams, and she's done a lot of car or automotive work, and I didn't really get too deep into it. And so I wanted to ask you. you because I'm fascinated by it because it seems like very formulaic but incredibly difficult so like I almost when I was talking with her I almost said easy and I'm like no it's not easy it's it's a thing I couldn't get the good words I still cringe a little bit or listen to that back I was like no that makes it sound like she's phoning it in what I meant was every car commercial kind of feels the same so it is obviously yes and so I was wondering if you could talk to me about like what is that

formula you know what goes into making a great car commercial and what are maybe some of the that people don't expect to see on something like that. Because there's always going to be car commercial. Someone's going to shoot ones at some point, you know? Yeah, yeah, until they're fully animated. But which, by the way, they, yeah, right, which that was not a thing. But it, it, the thing is advertising people always want to, you know, get out to a different city and sort of, you know, have dinner at some place. Isn't what everyone wants every time?

Yeah, that's not a, that's what they're, that's what they're looking for. So, yeah, look, it is, it is in, and look, I think that there are a handful, um, that I've seen that start to do some really special stuff. Um, there are rare though. Um, and, you know, look, the thing is, is, so I, I love cars. I am my, my dad, my brother is a driver and he works for Porsche and, and, you know, and, you know, And, you know, he's got the coolest job in the world. And you did some racing. And, you know, we grew up around. My dad did a little bit as well.

You know, we're just car folks. And I go-kart, you know, like race people and all that shit. And so I'm a car guy. I love it. But it's an inanimate object. And it looks good from certain angles. You know, it's a shape and certain things, you know. There are rules, too.

They get into, it's interesting, all the different. So the car companies that they do when they get a car, they, you know, sort of it gets finished is they basically shoot it on a big white site and they photograph, you know, all the angles that they'll basically choose as like, these are the ideal angles. That the way that this car has been designed is, oh, you know, this area, this sort of large plastic area or, you know, grill thing or whatever, we don't really like it. So we want you to be high. And that kind of makes the car seem to sit like it's lower.

we want you to sort of be a little bit more long lens here or like avoid this or that or whatever it's not it's not it depends on the manufacturer but it can be very specific to somewhat vague like a brand like Porsche you can think of is like they are that brand is we're talking about like advertising brilliance like they don't make a misstep

and it's they're like very very very rigid in that way and it's all very controlled So that starts to become, you know, and they're just not going to use, you know, if you're on an car and you're doing your thing and then you start getting really wide and close and low or something like that in the car is getting all bulbous and whatever else, they're not going to use that shot. You know what I mean? Like they're going to cut around and go to the other stuff. So you are kind of, the formulaic aspect is often you're like checking things off the list, you know, grill, badge, headlight, taillight, deal.

you know like you're getting all those pieces in that way and then i think if you're working for someone who's a little more adventurous that's when you know you're seeing anamorphic get used which obviously fits the shape of a car i once shot something with a car that needed a nine by 16 let me tell you let me tell you not a good time we're going to shoot this on an eight millimeter you got the full frame camera right yeah yeah yeah no we literally were off we're on a track it was like our car you know Picture car was on like almost one edge and the arm car with the arm all the way. It was, you know, wide lens too. Fortunately, it was only a few assets that they needed.

So it was sort of like, oh, we just have to get a full profile in and that. It was like, this is silly. But so, yeah, it, but I think you can do really interesting things with reflections because it is a mirror surface. So you see all the fun stuff with all the tubes and volume stuff and all the lights chasing and running up and down the car and all that stuff that's up's really fun um and uh and and volume in general is a great space for you know it's a mirror angled object with a you know cylindrical light around it basically so it's pretty perfect um but uh but yeah so i don't know i'm i'm i'm rambling now just about cars but what you know it's but it is like you know like you're saying

It is, it can be formulaic, and then I think very rarely advertisers allow, that's the thing. It's a lot of the time you want it to be safe. They say they want it to be one way and then you get there and you're like, oh, right, got it. No one wants to get fired. I get it. But that's, oh, my God. The amount of times I've done industrials where they're like, we want it to look edgy and cool. Like, I did an apartment complex that never got released so I can say this.

And he was like, I wanted to be like following these artistic people as they go through their day. So we wrote this whole script about writ. We wrote this whole script about like how they, you know, they live here. Then they go to their studio and they're like, you know, there's all the amenities and stuff that they go through. And then we send him the edit and he's like, but you can't see the apartment complex. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, it's in the shot. And he's like, no, we want drone shots. So what it ended up becoming was just straight up just drone shots of place.

It became a real estate video. And then he was like, no, why isn't this? Yeah. Why isn't this cool? And the PR company was like, uh, Which one do you want, but? Can't have both? Yeah, no, a thousand percent, and that is the reality of you.

You can work with people who, you know, yeah, they want to be cool. They want to, oh, man, I want to do this thing, and I want to be, you know, it's one, it's a really important thing. You need to take into consideration any element of filmmaking is written word and spoken word are these interpreted, theoretical, like, what the hell does? People say things to me where you're like, well, the other day I said,

go up. And it was like, tilt up, boom up, raise everything in the frame up. Like, there's so many interpretant. Like, well, hold on. What do you want? You know, like, and so,

but that's more specific. But what you're talking about, I think, you know, I come from, I've got a lot of family. members in advertising so i understand the psychology and it's they yeah they want to do the exciting thing but fear and job security is a very real thing so the the cool commercials that we see which again i totally get um i appreciate that but you know the really special commercials that you see i think take they're very rare and they're rare for a reason is because it take a group

of people a big group of people too by the way is a lot of cooks that right are willing to to take a risk and go for it. And that's really, really, really cool. And that's just why it's kind of a lot of the time pretty straightforward is because it gets still, it's this, it's the, you know, whatever, a tour is a little problematic of a term. But in anything, it's you've got, you know,

a guy painting a painting and he's just the individual doing the thing to a film, which yes, has a hierarchical as it should, in my opinion. That's why I like the narrative better. I like the hierarchical thing. I don't want to be a director. I like following this person who, I believe in

and just making their work better and then when you shift into commercial you just it dilutes naturally because there's so many other people involved

that's just natural too it's not even just hating on it it's just the reality is as you go from an individual to 15 yeah it's going to get watered down so anytime I see

commercials especially car commercials that are special I'm always like god damn like that's that is that's cool that that happened. Someone with a high-paying job risked it, and I respect that out of that.

Totally. You know, I know it's about midnight and a half where you are, so I'm going to let you go. And also my camera's about to die. But I'd love to have you, I've got to get a better battery for that thing. But I love to have you back on and keep chat because I feel like there's a few things

that we could talk about in the future. Maybe after you're done shooting this, we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm always happy to. It's a great. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Awesome, man. I like the beginning.

I'm changing the outro for this for next season, but the truncated version is, and this happened two episodes ago. Someone hit me with this on X. I used to be like, oh, what's the best piece of advice you got? And I always hated that because it's like, oh, that's such a basic-ass question. That's bad journalism. And then the guy goes, well, I'll tell you the worst piece of advice that I got. And I went, that's my question. So the question to you is, what is the worst piece of advice you got?

hmm the worst uh you know that's a really good question and and i'll tell you what the first thing i popped in in my brain i don't know if it's the worst piece of advice i've ever got because i've not thought it doesn't have to be the yeah yeah just like sure sure well it wasn't even advice it was just something someone said that i remember it piercing through me and being me being like i strongly disagree is um right out of film school um you know i'm still deep peeing anything i can but also just, you know, trying not to move back to my parents and just taking anything and everything

to pay the bills and stay in my New York apartment. And I went in second-eased seed on a shoot, which, by the way, read one, watched a guy put a CF card in backwards and just jam up all the teeth. I looked through the flashlight and we're all, because I don't, I was, I shot a DP'd a movie on it, it might be this year,

the first, like, student to do it, at least in that world and I just watched this guy was like, oh no, fuck the whole camera up but anyway, that DP I don't think he's doing it anymore but something came up something

it might have been to do with editing I can't remember exactly what it was but he kind of snapped at someone and he's like, I'm just here to make it look pretty and I don't care about anything else and I remember sitting there and being like I couldn't disagree like not at all

like you are there to help tell the story make it make sense um i'm constantly being asked about logistics and how to make people's lives easier and whatever and it's like fuck that man like no way that is not the thing like go do go do something else you know i i i just disagree with that that is just about making just the visual it's so much more than that um play psychiatrist to the director sometimes you know like it's it's a lot of things so so that wasn't advice but it was something i was standing right next to him when he said it and i just it was clear as day i was like i don't want to be that guy 100% and uh yeah well and that's uh i think that's also like the young way to think about it right especially if you come from like photography and you see pretty pictures it's like

every you know you want your photo to be pretty until you get like a book of magnum photos and they're not really pretty, but they're really interesting, and you're like, oh, no, maybe I was wrong. Yeah, there's a difference. I know I've worked with a lot of photographers, and they can be really brilliant, but there's definitely a, that world is very different than the film world in terms of how they approach things. And yeah, they're sort of the master in a way that can be a little problematic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, man, well, like I said, I'll let you go. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah.

And that's a time for, I really enjoyed it. I have you back. Awesome, man. Definitely. Yeah, count me in. Cool. Thank you.

You have a good night. Take care, brother. You too. Bye. Frame and reference is an Owlott production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F atRMapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company.

You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube. com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.