Frame & Reference Podcast - 80: Gal Musette Music Video DP Wes Cardino & Director Maria Garcia

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

This week, Kenny talks with cinematographer Wes Cardino & director Maria Garcia about shooting the Gal Musette music videos "Je vois le ciel" & “Julia.” Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny Macmillan, and today we're talking with West Cardino and Maria Garcia, the DP and director slash costume designer respectively, of a couple music videos from Galmaset. I say a couple because one of them is French and I can't really pronounce it, but it's in the title of the episode here, as well as a music video called Julia. It's much easier to pronounce. This is a lovely, warm, creative conversation that I think you're going to love. Wes has a very, I don't know, I don't lost words, but like educated cinematography language that he employs a lot, even in his commercial work. you know Maria is an accomplished costume designer we talk about that but also you know obviously

a director and the two of them do a lot of great work so really enjoyed this conversation and I think you will too so without any adieus to be furthered here's my conversation with Wes and Maria as you heard Wes the way that we tend to start is by asking what got you hooked in cinemas. Not necessarily, like, how'd you get to where you are in your career, but, like, what, you know, I imagine with costuming, it wasn't, was it film at first that started with costuming, or was it more like you just enjoyed fashion or something? I think what got me hooked was sort of my interest in opera from a young age. My grandmother, it's named after Gilda from Regaletto, and she was always singing opera and then she eventually.

essentially you started taking me the offer. But yeah, my background, short versions, my backgrounds in theater and live art and opera and dance. So that's sort of my entry point. And then, you know, slowly I've been arriving at doing sort of films and sort of like short form. Gotcha. Yeah.

Was it always, coming from theater is so fun because there's a lot of, I can't say a lot of DPs have come from theater, but obviously like production design, costume actors, of course. Did you find that it's kind of a different environment working on a set versus maybe if you've worked in theater before? For sure. I think just like, because for this music video that we're talking about, I directed it as well,

but just like from a costume standpoint, I was thinking about this earlier today, but it's like whether you're the costume designer or you're dressing, like someone about to go on stage, you're kind of like you do your best, you get them dressed. the way they go and it's sort of like I'll see you on the other side but I feel of course there's that on film sets as well but I think that there's a bit you know there's refining on things that you can continue to do while you're while you're shooting which is a bit different from the live elements of being on the stage yeah you know there's something unique that I occurred to me while watching the but actually both the music videos you guys did but um in

cinematography, you either rent the stuff or you own the stuff. And I've noticed like all the production designers and all the costume designers will go to whatever store and buy the stuff and really keep it pristine and keep the receipts. Do you, do you have, is there, is there a like customer analogy to the kind of renting out your own stuff? Do you end up owning anything you've ever kind of used or is it all kind of in that realm? Do I end up own? I think, um, I kind of come from like a devised theater background, carnival arts, and there's lots of, I've had to be scrappy and make things myself a lot of the time. And for both of these projects, you know, what I wanted didn't exist. So I made it myself.

And then I, after an object, I usually keep everything and sort of catalog it in a box and try and reuse it if I can. Gotcha. Very good. Yeah. What, did you go to college? for like making stuff like that or was that it was that all um just kind of uh what do you call it hobby based um i so i studied at fidm i did a degree in fashion and then i did a theater studies degree in london um and it was sort of when i was in london uh they gave me like they let me use a workshop there

and i got to use like the set building workshop so i'd make these like weirdo costumes out of i don't know, wood and random things there. So I kind of just learned how to make things myself and then also just being thrown into it. So for like running wardrobe jobs, I started dressing. I would study and then in the evening I would go work at opera houses as a dresser and just pick things up along the way. And then I think when you have to work on a project, you're just forced to, or I was just forced to learn how to make things because I couldn't necessarily I would find or afford to rent what I wanted. Right.

I'm sorry, I'm just interrogating you right off the back because I know far less about costuming than cinematography. But how does one just, do you just, is it like an application process to go to an opera house and be like, hey, let me hang out and stuff, or do you kind of have to know the lingo, as it were? For me, I started dressing at fashion shows, like when I was in high school.

So there was the summer job I applied for at Glynebourne Opera House in the U.K., this beautiful, magical place. And the running wardrobe manager there hired me. I was very lucky and she was sort of because of the experience of dressing at fashion shows. But she put me, I had no experience working in opera houses. And she put me in as like the dresser for the all the lead singer. I was just thrown in there and it would be like, I remember the first one I worked on was Eugene O'Nagan and it was just like there was five quick changes and like you I had to like

change someone's complete costume in like 20 seconds and like it's it's so I think that was that job was so fun because it's like an adrenaline rush but yeah I kind of just I was able to get that one job and then sort of it helped me get other jobs working at opera houses and then I sort of started to meet artists where I could you know start designing stuff myself as well. Totally.

So I was a theater kid growing up but I was also heavily into magic and I'm actually getting back into it but when you say like changing someone out do you utilize elements of like quick change performances or is it just like get ripping clothing off of actors?

it's very you have to be very precise because it's like I said like if I'm taking a gown off of someone I have to change their tights and their shoes and like don't forget I forgot the ring one time and it was like a catastrophe that I forgot put the ring on because it's really important to this story but yeah there's like certain ways you set out you go before your change like maybe 20 minutes and there's a quick change booth on the side of stage and you set up everything so that's the tights will be laid out so they can just put their feet right in it, the shoes right next to it. There's a tap, there's like a sheet on the ground and then the gown goes on top of it so that someone can take their clothes off and then they jump into the, you sort of just leap into the clothes. And they're made for a lot of these costumes for opera made. If there's a quick change, then they'll be like paupers or snaps or something can easily work. Right. Yeah, because that's what I was kind of wondering is like how much design goes into the costumes when you know there has to be a quick turnaround or do you like end up learning like, oh, I built this nice

costume and then now I realize I have to get this person out of it in seconds. I'm sure that happens sometimes, but that'll usually be probably be a mistake if it wasn't considered from the sort of original design phase. Sure. Now, Wes, going over to you, like, were you always a film guy, or did you come to it later in life? I've met, like, half of the people I've interviewed started as architects for some reason. I have no idea what it was about architecture. Right. Well, I mean, I guess I was, I didn't really, you know, like when I was growing up,

I didn't have, like, cameras around the house and video cameras and all that kind of stuff. So strangely, you know, my, the beginnings were, like, like, you know, me making up sort of stories in my head. And I always found that I was doing that with a, with the sort of idea of a frame and a composition and dramatic lighting. And I think that started when I was really, really young. I grew up in Western New York. And I, there was a art museum there, the Albright Knox.

And so I went there when I was really young. young and there's actually a lot of like amazing paintings there from, you know, an artwork and sculpture and stuff from a lot of really famous world-renowned artists from the past. So I got to see all that stuff as a kid. And there's like a, there was like a replica, a bronze replica of the Michelangelo's David out front. I don't know if they moved it, but I haven't been there in a long time. But anyway, so I, like, saw that. I became obsessed with Renaissance art and Michelangelo in specific, you know, in particular. So, you know, that's where it started for me, I think. And then, you know, I was like a kid of the 80s and 90s, so

I was watching, like, music videos all the time. And then, strangely, I don't know even how this happened, why this would have happened. But when the movie, The Last Emperor, came out, the Bertolucci film, shot by Starraro, I think that was like maybe in the late 80s or something or middle 80s. I saw that movie in the theaters. I don't know if my mom wanted to see it or, you know, and I ended up going. And at the time, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to say that I understood the complexities of that film. But I distinctly remember. how impactful the images were to me and the how those images and the lighting and that and all of that conveyed the emotion and I just got lost in that and so I think you know that was like a big pivotal

moment and I kind of was like what is that like what is that thing that who makes all these images and and that's and that's when I started getting into it so then from there you know of course I became a, you know, I wanted to see every movie that Starraro had shot and that opened up doors to other things and, you know, because I was like maybe nine or something or 10 or something at that time. So, and then I, and that's when I sort of became like, you know, oh, it's movies, it's music videos, it's stuff like that. But I never lost my interest in art. You know, I, I, I, you know, that was still, you know, doodling and painting and stuff like that. Um, But I just, but, but, but yeah, movies then at that point in my life became the sort of predominant, um, driving factor, I guess. You know, it's, it's fascinating. You say that because I was watching, like I said, both music videos. And I was like, there's this, obviously with the, the black and white one, the name I can't pronounce because I don't speak French. The, the, uh, it does have a very like French new wave slash like, um, oh shit. what's the movie the chess movie the oldest movie on the planet um black and white he plays

chess against the devil why am i blanking on this oh yeah um uh the seventh seal yeah seven seal there go yeah it has actually watched recently we were watching um yeah it has it has that weird like yeah not weird but an interesting combination of um yeah french new wave seventh seal kind of vibe and also just random pockets of modernity that felt very kind of like 90s, 80s music videos. So that's, I can absolutely see that through line through there. That's very cool. Yeah. Actually, speaking to that, because there's a lot of really amazing, especially in the 90s,

impactful, but also very kind of, I would say, like important directors and cinematographers that came up through music videos. Were there any that kind of stood out to you as being particularly informative to your style or things that really kind of stood out to you you mean like uh sort of 90s cinematographers that i yeah or directors because that was a very like you know the classic ones i always say are like the the you know that directors box set the the mark romanek um spike spike jones uh chris cunningham yeah yeah i mean i've definitely i definitely uh i don't own that box set but i definitely watched many of the videos from that and of course i i think that that i always i still think to this

day that the music video that uh chris conningham did for uh b york for for her for that single all this full of love was like so incredible such an incredible music video um i was like fascinated with that one the first time i saw it um but i you know i also saw like tons of like 80s videos you know like Jackson and like David Lee Roth and stuff all those like crazy like David Lee Roth videos from like the 80s and like Van Halen and stuff um but no I mean I think like a big standout like a lot of the stuff that Harris Savities I think did in the 90s early 90s um music videos I mean that was definitely a big influence I mean it's hard to know like I sort of look back and I try to think like you know mark romantic stuff I

you know i mean i i look back and i think oh who shot that because at the time like i never i never really followed up on you couldn't really find that information out right like you like who shot it like um so so yeah i it wasn't it wasn't until later that i like went back but i would definitely say like civetes dan daniel pearl i mean his work is so i mean he's also done a ton of commercials but his work was was amazing um is amazing um so i would say those are two big influences and then but i think my bigger influences come from specifically from the film world come from i think movies from the 70s and and 80s that that that i think played a bigger role or formative role yeah yeah because the um it's not oftentimes

i've noticed that uh younger filmmakers will you know the fun parts of film so Certainly, this happened to me, the fun films, you know, your men in black or whatever, gets you into movies. And then you have to go back and realize, like, even for a quote unquote, you know, comedy or whatever, there's still, that work is still informed by the older masters, you know. And so it's cool to hear that you got that start there. Because like I said, you can totally see it in your work. Like there is definitely a maturity to the work that both, you know, in the music videos,

what am I trying to say like it you you can tell that you're informed by by whatever paintings or stuff like that it's very um cool it's cool to see yeah no thank you for saying i i mean i hope it comes through but that's the dream right like like oh i hope all that stuff that i love so much comes through the good stuff but um yeah no i mean i mean also i was just going to add quickly like of course i love all the like you know old blockbusters too like i mean i'm not I'm not I mean I've back to the future and like the Spielbergs I mean like for sure like huge hugely influential you know um because also like a lot of the great you know Dean Cundee and like Alan Davy I mean like they were all shooting those movies I mean it's just like you know not just not just

like the high art stuff from the 60s and early 70s from Europe or something you know I mean I so yeah I mean that that stuff huge influential as well you know you know it's funny you mentioned back to the future because i pulled a bunch do you have shot deck yeah yeah yeah so i uh pulled a bunch of stills it's the it's the best uh i pulled a bunch of stills from back to the future to use as an example in an article i've yet to write um but where people say like oh the film look oh i need i need it to look like film and i've noticed some of your work is like really specifically like photochemical film uh either you were shooting film or you've, you know, found a way to color it as such, but, uh, replicate it.

But, um, back to the future is like not lit very well. Like it does, you know, it's pretty like, especially in like 4K, you're looking at it. You're like, honestly, like this one of the best movies ever made, everyone's favorite. That doesn't look amazing. Yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like super bright, high key. Hard. Yeah, hard light, super hard light, you know. But, uh, yeah, definitely.

But, you know, I think that, you know, it speaks to something, because I think about this a lot. I think a lot of cinematographers get lost in technical stuff. And, you know, strangely, a movie like that, this massive blockbuster hit from the 80s, you know, it's a story, right? Like, that's what brings you there. And of course, like, if you're a cinematography, you look at it and you're like, well, you know, it's not like the most glamorous look. or most graphic-looking film ever shot. I mean, I do think it's, like, really well-shot still, but it doesn't, you're right, you know?

Like, it doesn't have that, like, vibe, that super kind of dramatic vibe, I guess. But, you know, it's just like, the story is, like, so compelling. And at the time, I guess, you know, maybe there's some, like, old film from the 40s or fifth, some monster movie or something that they drew a lot of inspiration from. I don't know, but, you know, at the time, it was like, oh, he's never seen anything like that for, like, what a compelling, amazing story. And, like, you could probably have shot that on, like, Super 8, and people would have been like, that's a, that was awesome.

That was so cool. Yeah. Great characters. I mean, it's just, so I think that's a big, big part of it, you know. Well, the other thing, too, is I, so I'm a drummer, and I'm actually next week, I'm going to interview. some people and one of their two DPs and one of their quotes was that like a good

DP is like a drummer like they need to keep the beat make sure the song's going good but if they're ever slow or fast or like too exuberant or whatever everyone notices and it doesn't help so like you know back to the future doesn't need back to the future is exactly what it needs to be for that story to work

anything more and it probably would have been a little like are they trying too hard or something like that yeah for sure I do think that there's some truth to that I mean, it's sort of like the best and worst comment you can get is like, oh, that movie looked so amazing. Right. And that's all that they say. That's all that someone says.

And that doesn't mean that, like, you've failed as a cinematographer. I mean, you've obviously succeeded because you were able to make a beautiful film. Maybe the script was bad. I mean, who knows? But, you know, it's, it's, you want people, you want the audience to respond to the story through the image. images, not be responding to the images on their own, I think. You know, I think that for me, that's important. I mean, maybe in commercials and music videos, it's a little bit different.

But, but even doing those, it's still informed by a story for me. Yeah. Maria, is there, I was going to say, is there like a kind of a through line like that for you? Like, because obviously you don't want to put some person in a film in some crazy costume, if they're just like your average Joe or whatever. But how do you walk that tightrope between making the costumes fit the character, but also maybe be interesting or even something more practical, like read well on camera.

That's something I've noticed when I go to theaters and they have the like little displays with the costumes in them. They're always like real chunky. Like even suits are incredibly textury. Can you repeat the question? Yeah, sorry. I ramble. How do you walk?

the line between making the costume fit the character and fit the narrative, but also be, I don't know what the word would be, but like, interesting? Is interesting is not the right? Or not interesting. What's your thought process when going into designing a costume for a certain character or story? I think research is really important and making sure that you're, like, grounded in this story and something that's always helped me is, like, not imposed. closing anything onto it.

So like make sure it's in service of the story. And then the other thing that I've always found really helpful is just like, how are you creating opportunities for the story and for the people that are wearing the clothes and looking for those opportunities? I think it's really important. But yeah, just going back to this story and honing in is really important for costumes, I think. What do you mean by opportunities? I guess so if we're thinking about I'm just going to give an example like a dance example for example so if someone's going to be twirling around or doing some crazy movement and one time I put someone in a trench coat but I wanted but I myself I lined the trench coat in a specific fabric because I wanted it to play with the lights and also it was like you're talking about magic it's kind of sort of like an operative

there. It's like a little magic trick or something where you're sort of creating other dimensions within the story. That makes sense. That's more of like a gimmicky example, but you know, just putting someone in a red dress for like, why are they wearing? I think everything you need to interrogate everything you do and make sure you know why you're doing everything. I think that that always helps. Yeah, the two examples that immediately come to mind, again, I don't know shit about costuming but the two were uh um uh what's her name um julie julie andrews and uh mary poppins apparently like the inside of her dress was all red because she thought mary poppins was real saucy when she was off the clock it was like red silk on the inside of the

dress and then the other one is apparently like tarantino will like make have the prop department make like receipts and like random stuff that he'll put like for where that character went that morning he'd like stuff those in the pocket so the actor like finds things that help inform the character um that's amazing so is that kind of i mean obviously those are like not the first one but the tarantino one's obviously an extreme example but do you find that you um some at what aspect of costume is informing the actor about what they're doing and how much are you listening to the actor to inform the costume what's the interplay there um i think just like how how the clothes, like, how are they going to feel?

How do they fit? And then, of course, there's like a conversation with the actor or performers, whoever's wearing the clothes. I like to develop a conversation there to make sure that it works. Again, it's like you don't want to impose if something's just not working and they're telling you, then I think trying to work with them to find a middle ground is always helpful. I'm trying to think of for the music video for Jevalesiel if we

costume was really important for that music video in particular but I think there's just like the masks for example the masks that the masks that she's wearing I think those are like serving a purpose and so I think everything that you put something in why are you using this and what is it going to do how is it going to help tell the story aid the performer yeah yeah the the costuming in that one you just said the french one uh the i'm not i'm probably not saying it i looked at it say again jevoisle le ceil galmusette the artist would probably would probably be good yeah she she'd have the proper uh pronunciation i short handed it to javois yeah i'm gonna do that yeah i looked at it and i went uh nope

yeah the uh that video especially like because i'm kind of a dummy um and i also don't speak french what what was kind of the narrative and how and how i want to get to the cinematography in a second but specifically for you what were what were you trying to tell in that narrative of that video specifically because it because again i don't speak french so i didn't quite get the explicit script there. Okay. So the song is about it's sort of someone who's

lonely every day is the same. They look up at the sky and it's about time passing and loneliness and longing. And so for the video, again, similarly, it follows a woman who's bored in her life every single day is the same.

She's staring at the window. She decides to go for a walk and while she's on her walk she sees this older couple who are very much in love from what she can tell and she becomes transformed by her obsession not just that she's like these two people are in love but she actually is obsessed with following them and she sort of goes to great lengths to follow them and document their every move and in that in doing that she sort of transforms herself into this sort of, it becomes a like carnival experience for her and she transforms into this character, which we call the Venetian. I mean, that's the sort of character you see in

the sort of medieval carnival mask at then. Yeah, it's a, I will say, I guess the two, the two separate photos of the old couple. I did kind of get the vibe from that one. I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you say you directed it as well? Yes. Okay. So was that, was that story, is that story inherent, I assume it's inherent in the song? Or how much like extra were you putting into the, what would you, what am I trying to say?

Like, was there anything in the, in the video that's not explicit in the text that you were kind of evoking and kind of pushing, having the video be? An explanation, God, this is a terrible question. No, it's not. Do you know where I'm going with that? Do you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah, the song is very much about, like, what I just said, someone who's, like, every day is the same, melancholy. But we sort of developed the story inspired by the song, but the story, inspired by the song, but it's something that we created for the music video.

Gotcha. Now, West, the, oh, are you going to say some? No, I was just going to say that Maria spent a lot of time sort of developing that story from listening to the song. So, but, yeah. The one thing that I'll add there is there's a French artist, Sophie Calais, who in her early work, she was, she picked up a camera and just started following people, like stalking people on the street and taking photos. and she'd go to Great Lance to follow them. At one point, I think she followed a man to Venice, and that was sort of an inspiration for the video as well.

Interesting. I'll have to look that up. That's a very interesting borderline illegal art project. Yeah, dark, creepy obsessions. I mean, it's the Europeans, whatever. Yeah, you know, France to Venice is like what? 20 miles yeah yeah um but uh i wanted were there any kind of visual uh touchstones or or inspiration for the video because like i said it does have a very seventh seal kind of um the

the black and white work is really beautiful and and textural in a way that i think make mank wishes it did um but yeah so kind of talk to me about how like what maybe you were looking towards as touchstones for that look and how you sort of achieved that yeah so I mean, I think all of that old black and white photography was in my head while we were preparing and in pre-production. Maria came with the, you know, she came with her deck of, like, visual images. And what was really refreshing is a lot of it was photography. Actually, all of it, I think, was photography with a few film references. And I was like, oh, and some of those were the Sophie Calais photos, which I, which I recall were in black and white.

I don't know why I was like thinking about these old like Stiglitz photos and Ed Stitchin photos. He was an amazing photographer, actually, did a lot of early, like, stuff. and really sort of graphic and so that stuff was swirling around in there and yeah and I you know when Maria started to like tell me about the idea and the carnival elements and I you know I I was like oh there's like a playful element to this as well you know it's it's got a bit of a French New Wave vibe you know a sort of fun looseness to it and I started you know and I was looking at some early Godard and early Truffaut and of course, Agnes Varda, you know, it's just like such beautiful stuff that she did in her career. You know, and so we started throwing all these

ideas around and all these like images and that's kind of what. And then if, you know, and then I was like, hey, we should let's do this in black and white. Like the textures and, you know, that was another aspect. Marie, I think or what? What? I just, Maria's like really into. I think, I think I was just like,

I want it in black and white because there needs to be like documentation, like private eyes, someone was following and like an envelope of photos of, you know, and then also nostalgia. But it's just so interesting hearing West because West comes in it from a different entry point of like a film background. And we were watching.

some of these films lately after we made the video and it came out and I just, I didn't have those references before. It was just, it was like just a different entry point, which I think is so interesting. Well, she had like, yeah, but I, you know, so we just threw those things back and forth together, you know, because she, she would come from with sort of like some fashion photography stuff. Like some, I think she had like a couple of like Richard Avedon photos. And if you look at his work. I mean, it's some of his work. It's like really graphic and you can feel like the texture and the whites and the blacks. And so I just, yeah, for me, it's just like grabbing all that stuff, letting it sink in, thinking about the story, what's important. And then it sort of

organically comes back out as something new. It's like always going to be in a strange way an homage or where you're going to be stealing from all of your heroes and um but but it comes out a little bit different you know when you when you do it and that's kind of like I guess what for me what how it sort of all happened you know yeah but but also I was just going to add that I think when Maria builds her costumes for instance um and when she thinks about her concept it's so i wrote this down it's like she has such an expansive imagination about those things and with the costumes like texture is is something that i think she pays a lot of attention to like what kind of fabric do i want to use and how will this

affect the performers performance or or is it or whatever the expression of that character is you know i want you know tech it's not just about like the costume looking a certain way it's it's also about texture for her too you know through our conversations so then when i let that i try to listen to that and say okay well then the visuals have to integrate that as well it's all got to be sort of unified you know there has to be a unified moment and so and i just thought as well like the the black and white is like maria said it's it's this sort of documentarian element that the the private eye kind of element to it but also it's a way to like for me it was like the graphic nature the text the graphic textures of the locations and the costumes and and also just the

element of playfulness you know that kind of french new wave kind of vibe as well yeah the uh in that in the music video uh julia one costume thing that i noticed i don't know if you made two costumes or or if that's just what water did. But when she's all wet, it looks like she's wearing rubber. Oh, she's wearing, the dress is neoprene. It's like wet suit. Okay. Because at first I thought it was like silk or something.

And then it looked all rubbery. And I was like, wait a second. What have we done here? Well, but that was like a deliberate. That's cool that you saw that. But that was like a deliberate thing that like we kind of spoke about and like sort of labored over like, oh, is this the right material for this dress and, like, how will it render on camera when it's wet versus when it's dry? And, like, we think about, you know,

we thought about those. West gets very involved. And I think for Jevoiselle, for the medieval carnival, Venetian character, I made Wes go to the fabric store with me to pick the fabric out because I wanted to make sure that it was going to be the best one for black and white. I love a Joanne's. I'm not going to. I would not kick my feet to go. Well, you know, that's the, that's something. They're very crowded during the pandemic.

Yeah. Yeah. Lots of crafts going on during the pandemic. Oh, the Michaels by my house was a fucking nightmare. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Whenever I have to like, if I want to go get something like a whatever, it's, you know, glue bottle and I have to go to a Michaels to do it because it's a specialty.

I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. Very long line. But, yeah, so the one thing I wanted to ask about the black and white photography specifically, and this will actually kick off into a different thing about film emulation in general, emulation in general is, are you coloring your own work? Because it seems like this whole operation is very hands-on. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I like to be hands-on. Maria's super hands-on with a lot of stuff. But no, this music video, we, Matt Wallach at Company 3 graded the video, did a fantastic job. You know, we shot it in color, knowing that we were going to finish in black and white. So that was why, like, we went, we did the fabric shopping together. Marie asked me to do that because once we knew we wanted it to be black and white,

I didn't approach it from, let's just shoot in color and fix all the, all the, the, the, the, the, the, um, the, um, gray scale. Yeah. Like, I, I really, we both approached it from a, from a standpoint of this is black and white. And how is this going to look on black? If we were shooting black and white film, how would this look without the ability to change all those things in post? So we, we, that was the approach for us. And that was one of the reasons. So, so. And then, of course, Matt did a fantastic job, like giving it nuance and tweaking all the things that we couldn't control, you know? Yeah. Was all the diffusion done in post, or was that, did you, were you, what were you shooting? What was the camera package for that?

Yeah, yeah. We went with like a really small package. I used the black magic cinema camera on that, the 4K version. Yeah, great camera. Yeah, it's, I mean, look, I mean, it's, it's, it has its. drawbacks i mean it doesn't have the greatest dynamic range or whatever but i actually really like the camera like for what it for what it is what you can do with it how quickly you can move especially on on budgets and you know constraints for smaller budget things like music videos i love that camera i mean

it's so convenient you can put it in interesting places um so we use that uh we used like a mixture of different types of glass, Zeiss and some old Nikon lenses. So I think a lot of the softness of it is a combination of the camera and the environments and also the lenses for sure. Because I didn't use any diffusion on that on that. Gotcha. Yeah. We did a little bit of halation, emulation and post. Yeah. But other than that, no, no, you know, in front of the, in front of the lens diffusion. Yeah, the reason I was asking is because the reason I mentioned Mank was that that soft black that I know they worked really hard to get on Mank was seen kind of here as well, like that didn't feel, it didn't feel like a lens effect. It felt more like a, what would

have been, I suppose, like orthographic film, but these days would be post. Right. I've seen a lot, like, have you, because there was those little short, I'm going to guess it was for a clothing company where there's like a girl by a train um oh yeah that was a jewelry company actually jewelry company yeah were those shot on film or was that also that emulation done in post no that was all shot on super eight yeah uh director uh Anton Anton Anton DePrize did those spots and we we the the client uh they like they like liked that look. And at first we, we actually thought, like, oh, maybe we should just shoot it on an Alexa and we'll just do all the, we'll do it in post. And then we're like, nah, why would we do that? No fun in that. So, so yeah, no, we shot that on Super 8 actually. Because I was going to say, like, if someone did do that in post, they deserve a raise or some kind of award or something, because it looked like film because it is.

Do you, do you have a preference? Do you, are you like kind of a especially coming from your, uh, let's say more historically laden background like do you prefer film or do you find digital be just fine yeah um it's like such a uh i don't think it's such a contentious issue anymore it is no contentious i don't know um i i mean i personally if i have the opportunity to shoot on film i shoot on film if i can make that work budgetarily uh that's my my preference Yeah. There's so many things that are great about digital. I'm not going to lie.

I mean, low light sensitivity, flexibility, the cameras are smaller. I mean, not if you're shooting Super 8, but obviously some of the cameras are smaller if you need them to be smaller. There's so many things. But I just think film looks better. I just think it looks better. I know that's not. a technical thing, it just looks better to me. I don't think, I know there's people out there

that are like, ah, you can make anything look like anything. And I guess you can. I guess you can really make digital look like a film emulsion. You can do it. Does it have the same effect? I'm not sure. I mean, it's getting better and better. I'm sure in another 10 years, it just won't matter anymore.

But I still think there's something about films, those punchy mids, the flesh tones, the color space. I mean, you're really, it's different. It looks different. I don't care what anyone says. It looks different. You can feel it.

I agree with you like 98%. I think it, because I do, I, I'm in the camp now after a lot of kicking and screaming that you can make anything look like anything. There is something about film, like the visual cadence of it. I don't know. There is something different. But I think it all comes down to work for. right if that's what you want it to look like just shoot film if why spend the extra time and money to shoot digital which is you know digital the workflow thing being like oh you know if you got the

shot you can review you can whatever um and then spend a bunch of time trying to replicate a look that you could have just gotten if you shot film you know yeah yeah and it's it's it's it is not that much more expensive anymore i mean the different the differential between like having to get all the hard drives and all that stuff. I mean, storage, it's not that big of a difference. I mean, of course, for a line producer it is, but... Right. But, yeah, that's my feeling on it.

Because I find myself, when I shoot digitally, I oftentimes find myself searching for a lot that emulates the contrast curve of film. And that for me is really frustrating. I don't want to I don't want to have to think about that like that's that's a distraction from being creative on set that's a distraction from shooting the story you know obviously I need as a cinematographer I have responsibility to understand these technical things but for me that's just a distraction totally it's it's not it's not the it's not why I'm a cinematographer you know and that's why I was saying earlier

I think a lot of people get lost are lost now in the technical elements of cinematography and there's many reasons for that it's not it's not cinematographer's fault I think it's just the place we've been pushed into more recently

everything's more acceptable or accessible yeah more yeah for sure but so yeah so yeah so I for me those types of technical considerations become really distracting And I don't want to have to think about that.

They spent 100 years with the greatest color scientists in history creating contrast curse for film. Not, you know, and that's their job and that's not my job, you know. You know, that brings up something I've said a few times on this podcast, which is if you want the best, whatever, stills camera or light set up or any, anything, look for right before everything changed. So for instance, or like even art forms, like style, right? Right before audio came out, the films that people were making were incredibly stylish.

And then audio came out and they had to make the cameras fucking enormous. So they couldn't move them around because they had to blimp them. So they couldn't move them anymore. So all the films that came after audio were really locked off, barely moved it all. And you just watched the creativity take a nose dive. Yeah. Same thing with like, you know, when digital cameras came out, film cameras were getting, like, automatic film cameras were getting to the point where it's, if you were to grab, I can't remember which Nikon, but there was this like modern Nikon that came out in like 2006, I think. And you could interchangeably use that with the digital camera and the experience is exactly the same except you shooting 35.

Oh, yeah, the F5, I think. Yeah, that might be it. The F5 body where it was the first, I think, digital back as well. Oh, really? I think Nike also created the first digital back that you could swap and put a digital sensor on the camera as well. Right. And you see all that innovation and then where are we now? Like it's all the same now.

It has been 20 years. I did want to ask like because you guys work together so much, is there kind of a shorthand that you come up with or is there like a specific style? Because it does seem like, West, like looking through your website, there is a cohesive style. in your more, or coherent, I should say, even in your commercial work, which tends to be less, not your commercial work, but commercial work tends to be less stylized, but you can still see kind of an element of traditional filmmaking there, not so much corporate filmmaking. Is there like a kind of style that the two of you tend to aim for when you guys are collaborating?

Yeah, or a vibe. The kids love vibes. Yeah, you want to take that one? I think, well, Wes and I started working together on some of my sort of weirdo performance art projects. And I think just like we're both very, I feel like we're both very precise and like, but we're both willing to like experiment and learn from each other, which is really helpful. So I don't know if that's a shorthand there, but I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on this shorthand? It's like a tough question.

I think West is very patient, I'd say. And no, I think. It goes along with my insane ideas. That's a D.P.'s job. Is that a shorthand? Yeah, is that shorthand? No, I, I, yeah, I, it's a tough question because, yes, I think we do have a shorthand visually.

Like, I think we share common ideas when, when we're working, and especially on this last music video, on J-Vois, so, but I think part of, but I do think what Maria's, yeah, Maria, it's accurate to say part of the shorthand is to actually just be open into like experimenting as well. We do like a, we spend a lot of time in pre-production on these, on the last two music videos we did and also her last big theater performance piece. And so I think with that we,

it gives us a freedom when we're on set to to experiment. Because we know what we need to get for the story, and for the ideas and then maybe the egos aren't there yeah and we're not like scrambling to to find it on the day right so then suddenly when spontaneous things do happen we can like go for it and you know you know where uh the two of you you know where she's headed mentally and you can just be like oh this will be good or maybe i don't chase that down yeah for sure and you know Maria's very, very, very detail-oriented. Like, she really, when she sees something, you know, like a location that she wants to

shoot in, she, like, she sees, like, where she wants, what she wants to see, little details, you know what I mean, like, I would maybe set up a camera, I'd be like, oh, this is, this is good. And she'd be like, well, let's just push in, like, a foot. And it doesn't really change it that much, but it just gets something out of the frame that she didn't want in there, you know? so so like over the course like I started to kind of see some of the things that she likes and what she doesn't like and that that that's part of our shorthand I think now as well totally now you mentioned that working on theater stuff are you helping her with with theater stuff as well I have in the past yeah what what capacity did you feel there I was like working well yeah I was shooting it did some music I did Way, way back in the day, I actually. I know for the, we did as, you know, I directed a show at Red Cat for their now festival called Laughan with Cabiria at 9 follows like this Vaghan Museum's tour guide who meets a Trojan soldier version of herself.

so Wes there was it was sort of like a theater film hybrid it was peak pandemic mode so there was like there was a film in the show and then we also had to film the show in the theater that was then broadcasted later so Wes shot everything for that so shot the short film in the piece and then shot the piece edited the piece and did some composed some music oh yeah and I composed a song which greatest achievement I'd say yeah I call that the great of my greatest achievement actually do you not have a music background no I'm I'm I'm like I like you know of course moonlighting as a you know amateur position in my own in my own fantasy life right like I was a I was a rock star not a cinematographer right so yeah no I do play music so yeah gotcha yeah I didn't know if you were going to be like yeah I help I would run the

curtain it was really just being supportive yeah no I did like the yeah I did the mini movie or you know the short film inside of the theater performance and then I and then when we did it I I photographed the actual performance elements as well that then we're broadcasts so yeah now maria you mentioned that uh you have like weird ideas and stuff and i and i think i whatever you're doing i i like it's i like the weirdness uh where do where are those things come you know that's there's a very there's a freedom to trust in yourself for your weirdness to be good um were you always kind of confident like that or did that take a lot of work to or did you always trust that kind of inner artistic voice

I think it wasn't until I went to London was doing a theater studies background and most of our degree was reading and writing about plays and then you also get like all the theory education as well and we had to make our own shows. So I was working with, actually I was working with, I started volunteering for a theater of the oppressed. theater company called Carboard Citizens in the UK as a costume person. So I would do that and then make, I would dress like go work at opera houses at night and then in my spare time would make sort of performance art shows. And so I've sort of continued to do that, doing sort of costume and then where I can make performance artwork shows. And that sort of recently has translated into directing stuff, sort of short form, stuff like

music videos. But I think with that sort of devised theater background, it's enabled me to like feel confident to explore, investigate some of these questions I have and make that be the central focus and like that be enough. So if I have a question or have, I think like with Laucoen, we were at the Vatican museums and there was this tour guide that I became obsessed with. I, like, fell in love with her. She was giving us a tour, and then we saw the Laucoen statue,

and sort of that sort of, like, looking into that and doing a lot of research there, that's sort of where the show came from. But, yeah, I think giving my space, giving myself this space to ask these questions and do the research makes me feel like there's the purpose behind whatever I'm doing. Sure. Yeah, that's, you know, kind of like, I guess if you study really fucking hard and you know everything about everyone that came before, there's nothing left.

Life isn't that interesting. And letting yourself ask those questions be inspired by something and be like, all right, I'm going to figure that out myself and see if I come to the same result is a more fun way to live for sure. Yeah, I think that's like for, yeah, I mean, it's just about, it's about like being curious, right? About being curious about just being. just being you know you we're here and um that's why i like working with maria because i think her her ideas are like explorations um of ideas of concepts that she's interested in and uh you know i'm you know i think yeah it's cool like that well it is a very uniquely american thing to have

everything need to be either monetizable or productive, right? There's we even, you know, sure enough in school, we hack all the art programs. That's one thing. But like, we don't encourage people to just ponder. You know, we are not philosophers for the most part. And so it is fun to meet people who are kind of on that same thing. Because I certainly sit at home and do plenty of thinking on my. own. It's a lot of questions. It could just be anxiety, but. Well, yeah, no, I think you're

right about that. There's like a maximalist utilitarian element to, I guess, maybe English-speaking countries, but I wouldn't know, but especially in America, that's true. It's, even in the methodology of how, you know, we work on set. that doesn't sometimes doesn't feel like there's a lot of room for exploration um you just got to do it and that's that we've got one guy we got david lynch and he's the only one is allowed to explore everyone else everyone else you just have to produce and that's it does it and it has to make 100% sense yeah like no room for yeah no room for uh interpretation you know there's this great book it's a very small book uh written by this chapter He's a dude called In Defensive Shadows. And he talks about all kinds of stuff, you know, architecture and rooms and light and bathrooms. There's a whole chapter on bathrooms where he's like, Americans are fucking weird.

They built all their bathrooms are white. Like, why? Make it dark in there. That's where you're going to think. That's where gross stuff happens. Like, do, why is it so bright? Why? Like, you're just going to highlight gross stuff.

Yeah, right? Yeah. That's funny. But it's a good book for cinematography. though especially but also just filmmakers in general just because it is it is like a meditation on not uh completely exposing something and i don't mean that in the literal lighting sense although i do but like just form you know how light interacts with with buildings and form and and how that changes the mental function of something i find fascinating did any of that make sense read the book no

yeah no that totally made sense i i i mean Yeah, it's absolutely. I mean, I read it. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Well, you know, that was maybe going back to something earlier, but that's what I was going to say. I think a lot of when you work in a field where you have to have a certain level of technical expertise, but you're also trying to tell a sort of ephemeral, trying to grasp some ephemeral thing called story or emotion or whatever. You know, it's so subjective. I think you, you know, it's easy to get lost in just the very technical elements of it all. I just sometimes that can be really soul-sucking. I mean, it's exciting because you get to geek out. I mean, I love geeking out on tech stuff as well. But there's a, there's that's like I try to compartmentalize that, you know, and leave that part of the process.

And the rest of the, the majority of the process needs to be the sort of theoretical elements. because at the end of the day you got a great story you put the camera in a somewhat decent position people are going to be drawn to it i mean it's i'm not saying i'm not saying that you can be lazy or do a crappy job but i just think that you know i'm not saying throw out your your drive to make something look beautiful um that's all that's all in service to the story as well but But I just, I just mean that, you know, if you do have a good story and you put the camera in a decent position, people, that's what people want. And all the other things are to accentuate that, you know, the characters and the, and the, that's the lifeblood of it at all is the, is the humanity of it, I guess. Yeah, there's a that, and I guess that's where you become an expert, right?

Because you can have all the coolest gear in the world, but being able to translate what's in your head to something that. someone who's not in your head can you can make them feel the way you want them to feel when you want them to feel it as my old directing teacher said yeah that's that's where the expertise comes in because certainly you could have a really goofy cool idea and then just put it on the canvas as it were and everyone goes what is that and you're like you don't get it like that's not that's not good uh you know artistic communication right yeah well i mean i think and you know like when i was back in college as well, like a lot of experimental filmmakers, that would be the, that would be it. But you, it's funny because even in, you know, Maria was like saying, you know,

when she was doing, when she was doing the music video or Lau Cohen, for instance, or, you know, she was constantly like going over, like, am I achieving what, like, what I'm thinking about, am I achieving like what I'm am I saying is what I'm trying to say coming through in the end you know like that's that that's not that was something that she she was always coming back to and when we would talk about the music video like we were always talking about like does this location work for this music video based on what we're trying to do even if there's ambiguity or experimental elements of it that where the story isn't a clear plot driven story are we are we still executing every thing in a way that is consistent with the original ideas, you know, and be adaptable as well at the same time. That actually brings up a good question, I suppose, for you, Maria, which is, how many people do you kind of check in with and what kind of people are they that allows you to know, oh, I'm on the right path here?

Because you've got to sanity check anything. You can't just, no one can just trust themselves 100%. That's how you get Elon Musk. but you can't but you know how many people or what kind of people do you check in with to make sure that your arts coming through the way that you want without giving up the soul of what you were trying to do

in the first place I think I'm usually collaborating like I'm usually collaborating with like one to however many people also like I feel like constantly staying in communication and making sure that we're all on the same page and just bouncing ideas off of each other is really helpful.

So I think I think that's what grounds me, just the collaboration and working with other people. And I, but I think as like a director, you need to know where at least have some idea of where you want to arrive and like, yes, collaborate with everyone and experiment. but I think you need to be able to trust yourself and where you want to arrive and go back. I suppose I meant people outside of the creative team that you've built. Do you, do you check in with people kind of out? Hey, can you, like, I'll do that with my girlfriend. I'll like, hey, can you watch this and tell me if it's dumb, you know, because she's not a film person. She's a dancer.

So she'll look at it. She did get a degree in literary analysis. So smart friend to have. But, you know, like, hey, does this look right? to the average person. I think on occasion I will like ask my siblings if I want them to look at some like, what does this look like to you? I'll usually ask my sister or brother who are not in this industry.

And like sometimes I'll be like, oh, that's the bad answer. Never mind. I didn't mean to ask. Sure. Yeah, yeah. But usually that can be helpful. But otherwise, I think like on these latest projects, like Wes and I have. would just talk or for low co and we worked with the choreographer and performer Samantha Moore

when we're working with galmo said we'll stay in communication with her but yes i definitely think it's helpful to sometimes ask someone for an outside opinion yeah uh well oh go ahead oh yeah no i was gonna say i think she i think you did reach out to your sister about i recall uh was it on this music video i thought you were i think she's yeah she uses her sister is a sounding poor she's not in the industry yeah well she's not in the industry so she can you know look at it and go i don't understand this or but yeah so this is really conceptually interesting yeah well i guess i have like people outside you're right somebody outside of the do you do you say you ask your girlfriend is that uh yeah sometimes not all the

time but like definitely with uh anything that's supposed to deliver a certain message anything because i'm not a writer. So especially like if I'm editing something, uh, which is, you know, writing on the other side of it, um, I will be like, hey, does this actually make sense? Because you, you know, you'll sit here for two weeks straight, just, you know, not taking a shower or whatever. Just becoming a little edit gremlin. And then, uh, and you come, you pull your head out of the water and you're like, did I make anything? Yeah. Oh, no, that's good. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Does this make sense? Does this make any sense? Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely, yeah, the definitely coming back, you know, maybe you

chemically alter your mind's debt just ever so slightly and then go back to the edit and go like, wow, I really thought I was doing something here. I got to delete, delete, delete, delete. That's, yeah, the moment of terror when you're like, oh, my gosh, do I have to create a new timeline and start from scratch? Man, I'm a big proponent of every time I reopen Premiere, I duplicate the timeline. yeah and I just worked there because like just in case something terrible happens or I have a horrible idea at least I know I can go back to whatever the safe state was at the beginning a little tip for any of the editors listening well yeah I was going to say also Maria we we have a couple of close friends who um that we really trust their opinion we did we do we do send out the cuts to them see what their feedback is because one of them is an editor and the other one's a writer

and so that's always helpful just people who also having someone who is like in the industry but then knows story and stuff and it's good to get that feedback as well

just have something an extended collaborative circle yeah it's sort of is I guess yeah just going up to people people in Walmart, like, hey, I need you to watch this. No, no, no, come here, come here. Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, well, I think it's funny because I know some filmmakers, they sort of hear like the test screening, the words test screening. And they automatically, it triggers them like repulsion or something. You know, it's like as if that violates, like, the rules of eautorship. And I don't know if it's. does. I mean, look, obviously you're not, you know, maybe at the studio level where they're trying to just please the lowest come. It's the perfect product. Yes, yeah. Exactly. I get how soul crushing that is, but I don't think that inherently there's anything bad because you're

not making any of this stuff in a vacuum. You do want people to like enjoy it and engage with it. And sometimes when you are, when you do become the, you know, a little gremlin or troll locked in a dark room for for weeks and weeks and weeks or whatever, whatever role you've played on the, on the production stage of that, you do, you can lose your perspective. So it's good to get outside perspective. Or go for a walk. Or go for a walk. Leave the dungeon. That's a hard one. you know and i and and part of the skill i guess like i don't know maybe maria feels differently

but i imagine part of the skill for directors knowing which which comments are worth considering and which ones you just immediately throw out totally yeah and that comes down to experience though right like you know you can tell when someone has no fucking clue what they're talking about and you're like all right well thank you for the input but i will graciously you not listen yeah well that yeah exactly I mean that's the

yeah totally so well we are we're coming up on time here unfortunately but I like to end the podcast asking the same two questions although next season they might change

who knows I think this might be the last episode of this season so that's fun for us because I leave for December January so I can't I can't keep doing interviews but the first question and it's kind of weird for a music video but we'll go with it if you're programming a double feature for this music video so maybe you put another music video or maybe a film what would you program with it Julia the other music oh all right fair enough

both those videos we did what the gal and was said back to back they're both about lonely women oh yeah yeah yes that's true like alter egos sure episode of midsummer murders my favorite oh my gosh wow what's your answer oh man this is such a this is a tough one it's going to be really eloquent no i don't know if i have an eloquent one for the these are the these are the these are the these are the um the stumpers for me whenever i have to think up on the on the fly um oh my gosh maybe i would double feature with um cleo from five to five to seven

okay for this um or like a felini's um juliet of the spirits or uh or um oh my gosh why is the the title, Knights of Kiberia. Oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, that could be a good one. Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, just because I think there is elements of these, of that music video that are related to like female identity. And that's not strictly speaking, but there are, there are those things, you know, so. Sure. I mean, the, the fun thing about the double features, you can, you can either echo what your film or music video or whatever is, or you can contrast. it, you know? The example I love giving is,

Sagan? I said contrast it with midsummer murders. Exactly. Well, the one that I've said a few times is when I, just because it was hilarious, was I was interviewing Jeff Cronin-Went, who is someone I really look up to, and I asked him about the double feature

for being the Ricardo's, and he said, without skipping a beat, he goes, Alien versus Predator. Amazing. I think that's good. Yeah, the contrast, something to push against. Yeah. Well, because it can also, I mean, getting a little inside baseball,

but the reason I like contrasting ones is because it does highlight almost more explicitly one other artwork, you know, because obviously if you've picked a perfect yin to that yang, it'll have everything the other one doesn't. Or is proving the point with the counterpoint, which I think is it. Yeah, see, my answers are boring. marias are like interesting and exciting and thought-provoking really at the end of the day you're not going to get extra points by doing that um yeah i went to the safe the safe answer yeah um second question

which i this is kind of a newer one and i and i'm really enjoying it uh shout out to to joham bruschen cipher but uh never going to pronounce his last name correctly um but uh or hanjo anyway um What's the worst piece of advice you ever got? Man. You can go first. Oh, my gosh. Advice about anything? Preferably about the work,

but, you know, sometimes life and work intermingle. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Specific. Oh, God. Do you get me?

I can, this is kind of like a bit sad, But I remember when I was first realized I wanted to be a costume designer, someone asked me, like, what do you want to do? There was the industry person. I was like, oh, I want to be a costume designer. And they told me, oh, you mean you want to be a costumer, like a set customer. I was like, no, I want to be the designer. And like, oh, there's only, there's not a lot of costume designers.

So you should say, like, you want to be a costumer. And it was, I didn't know any better. And I kind of, it was like this really. sad. This person, a position of power gave me. It actually affected me because I just was like, oh, okay, I guess I want to be a customer. It's really strange. So that was a really bad, profoundly bad, sad piece of it. That's literally the last person I interviewed basically said that about being a cinematographer because they were working in other fields, you know, trying to become a cinematographer. And the person told them like, don't say you're trying to be a cinematographer because

then no one will hire you. Like, say you're trying to be an AC or whatever they were doing until you get that chance. And he was like, that was a horrible fucking idea. I should have just been saying cinematographer the whole time. Yeah. That's so, it's sad. And it's interesting because when I was assisting,

I was my first, actually was my first job as a production assistant. I just moved out to L.A. And the first AC on that show asked me what I wanted to do. And I said, I would like to be a cinematographer. and she said, what the fuck are you doing on set in the camera department then? She's like, do you want to be an assistant? And I said, no. I mean, I don't think so.

And she said, then you shouldn't be assisting in the camera department. You need to go out and become a cinematographer because she was a career first. And I get what she was saying. I know that. But you have to know what she's saying for that to work. Yeah. Otherwise, you're going to spin your wheels for a fucking decade. Exactly.

you're like well i need to pay the bills but but i but i the same bad advice i got no well it was sort of like good good and bad advice but i think the worst advice i ever got was just when i think you know just someone told me that i could never that it was a dream to be to want to become a filmmaker and that was the worst advice i'd ever gotten was give up was give up was give up yeah just give up it's it's a stupid it's a stupid dream ironically it is a dream but it's a dream you can experience and take part of yeah well it's not yeah and also it's not like i want to be a millionaire it's like i want to do a job people do jobs yeah you know it's a job

you know like you work i mean it's hard work so Wait, can we hear you? Yeah, what's yours, though? Oh, you know, it's funny as I've never thought about it. But I think, you know what? To be perfectly honest, I don't think I have a good answer because I never took anyone's advice. I was a very bad listener growing up.

And there was a lot of advice that I should have taken and didn't. So I don't know. I think knowing that it was bad advice means you applied it. and I was very rarely applying what people told me to do because when I was younger, I just thought I knew better, you know, and sometimes I did. Sometimes it was good to go with my own instinct. You know, I've learned, I've learned, you know, now that I'm hitting my mid-30s that, like, my instincts tend to be pretty good, but that's after 30-plus years of educate, you know,

learning life experience. And I think when I was in my 20s, no. You know, I didn't, I was maybe two in my head or just, you know, certain things would come easy to me. So I just thought like, oh, I know what I'm doing when in reality it was just kind of like a innate skill that I sometimes had and then would apply to everything else that happened in my life. So I think the worst advice I ever got was me telling me that I'm amazing at everything. But, you know, you get humbled throughout the years. and then you recover from that. And I think that did make me a better person, you know.

I think everyone needs to be, I think in some ways, some people need to be humbled less than others. I certainly needed a sizable kick in the ass. But, yeah, that would be mine listening to myself too early. I know, good answer. Well, thank you guys so much for spending the hour and some change. And that was a lot of fun. And like I said, the work you guys have done together

And it also, obviously, I was looking more at West's stuff because I'm a DP. It all looks fucking great, man. Just really good shit. I'm proud of you. I don't know what the appropriate sign off is for that. But really great job. Thanks for having us. We really appreciate it.

It was super, super cool to do this. Awesome. Well, I will stay in touch, I'm sure. But we'll see around the next time. Okay, fantastic. Great, James. Yeah. Take care.

frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me kenny mcmillan and distributed by pro video coalition our theme song is written and performed by mark pelly and the eth at art map box logo was designed by Nate truex of truex branding company you can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoollition.com or youtube.com slash owlbot respectively and as always thanks for listening Thank you.