Frame & Reference Podcast - 82: "Pitch Perfect: Bumper in Berlin" DP Agnesh Pakozdi

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Welcome to season 3 of the Frame & Reference podcast! On this weeks episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Agnesh Pakozdi about the series “Pitch Perfect: Bumper in Berlin”, enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode number 82 with Agnes Bikosdi, DP of Pitch Perfect Bumperfect Bumper in Berlin. Enjoy. Yeah, I was born in Hungary back in a Cold War, basically. And then I grew up there, I went to school there. And my parents basically were the first generation in a liberal country and like free market. So they were really going for you have to get a proper job and this is your future and everything.

So basically what was interesting, that art was absolutely not a way to go for me back then. And I'm an economist, original. So I studied economics. I saw that. That was a parental thing. They were like, you better get a real job. I better get a real job and I have the other option. So come on, no, you can do it.

No, no, the world is free. You got to study economics and something. And I was like, oh, okay. Right. But then it was, so culture was always, like, very important as a hobby. So we have a black sheep in our family, my own, who left the country in the 70s, and she became a photographer in Paris. Oh, wow.

And mostly black and white photography. So that was my hobby as well as a teenager, but it just can be a hobby. So like theater, movies, everything, very nice. You should know everything, but as a hobby. And then during this, during my studies, I kind of realized that what if I studied my hobby just as a hobby? So then I picked up a faculty secretly, which was film history and film theory. It's still back in Budapest. And in this faculty, I mean, we've watched.

everything from film history like yeah it was actually a great faculty but we had one practical seminar back on mini TV and we had like three spotlights and we were just shooting exercises like it was not the aim the goal was not to teach us how to make fields but we had amazing exercises like figure out a short story make it with cuts and without that. But like, we didn't have an editing software back then. So it's like editing in the camera. So we had the tape, the mini-tiv tape, and like, okay, you are three of you and you have

a weekend to do it. So like, for example, a story, a couple is making out. The husband is on the way home, whatever. Right. And how do you do it with edits and without as a plan sequence? and just every week basically we had we had exercises like this

and then I understood like actually it makes fun to do this and then I realized that I also would like to study abroad so I found a great scholarship in Berlin at the University of Arts which was more video art

so it was not my film school yet but it was also interesting that's the first time i met the 16 mill and but we were doing art to things so you went out with the 16 wheel alone or with someone to help you to load the film and um we did art and during this year when i was already in berlin i was like 23 so they had 22 23 i was like hmm i figured out that there is there are two film schools in berlin like state schools, one was the back then the East German film school and the

German film school. So they have both different backgrounds, different profiles. And I just started to work on set as a set runner as anything. I just wanted to look around like, okay, how does that feel like? And I realized that maybe it's more fun to work in a crew rather than running around alone with a camera and do your art. Right. Which I don't look down at absolutely. I love that as well, but it just made fun to be able to do something bigger in a crew. Yeah.

So then I applied to the film academy and they took me and then I never went back to Budapest. It's, you know, it's crazy is it like I feel like back in the 90s or early 2000s, all film teachers across the planet were reading from the same book because that's like exactly what i did in the high school and you know i went to new york film academy and los angeles at the universal backlog same exact thing make a make a you know we had the dvx 100 they're like do it with um we they didn't have us do it with no cuts do with cuts but they did have like i remember specifically one lesson where they were like do the entire short in one shot um you know putting us on 16 and 16mm smelling like fish bait if anyone's listening who knows the

smell of power bait that's exactly what 16 millimeter smells like out of the can um that's a lot of fun so was uh going back to the idea of um actually um so i was talking to eric mesderschmitt yesterday, the guy who shot Devotion and Mank and Mine Hunter. And he kind of echoed what you were saying about how people can kind of get, I'm putting words in the mouth a little bit, but we were kind of talking about how people can get caught up in the going out and making your own art, whereas for him, it seemed, the working togetherness of film was far more interesting. Being a part of a team and working towards a common goal was way more of the reason that he got into film. And I think it's the reason a lot of people, I'm just thinking about this now,

but like I think that that is like kind of one of those dichotomies of people, right? Like someone who's like, I'm going to be the director. You know, you always met that kid, like, who wanted to be in charge. And then there's people who like, well, I want to be part of a team because I want to do that instead of, you know, working at a bank. It's a very good point you are touching there because I go back, I go back to my story and like changing the system. We are the new generation. We have the new future back then. And like I realized that, okay, being an economist would mean that I think about profit in a sense.

And yes, of course, we establish here a new system. now and I could be a part of it but but somehow what was my other drive is I wanted to make this world better with like other tools and and that's still my my drive and basically this working together absolutely makes sense because also at the film school or outside the film school I always find my collaborators based on our own based on our common interest or what do we want from this world? Why do we do this? So as a cinematographer, of course, by time,

so I didn't climb the ladder in the classical way. I did everything. I was lighting electricity and I was a first DC. I was a guffer, but I didn't go through the classical way, but my drive was like, I really believed and still believed, but in a different way that we can change the world by that and we formulate important values by putting it in an exciting and challenging form and that's what i love the most about my profession so like the techniques everything

came later in my case but but that was the drive like how to tell the story that it's relevant what what do I want to talk about and as a synodographer you you have a huge responsibility in in that because on one hand everything is told already it's a it's a cliche right on the other hand we always try to be very innovative and and put it in a put it in a new form and of course we reflect on what is going around us a lot of things is happening around us So there is never enough to reflect on. And I love this bracedorming with a director together. Okay, what is the right form for what we want to say?

And that is the origo of my work. And that always have been my oracle for my work. And in this terms, just to jump a bit ahead to pitch perfect, it's a new level because my way, was again a completely different way how I ended up shooting these two episodes in one per in Berlin

but still the drive is the same and it doesn't doesn't make a difference even if it's a romantic comedy like every step I can follow up what was the consequence of which decision and it all makes sense and I'm really happy that I did that

but that's my main drive It's always happening. Yeah, you know, it's thinking about the difference between like being an economist or a cinematographer is like one might change your city in an economic way. Maybe if you got into politics or something, but really no change happens without cultural change. And that's where art comes in. And I think some people, I think art is far more dangerous in the sense of not in terms of, not in terms of, making, or not in terms of the product, but in terms of making it. You know, you can, you can fail a lot harder at art. You know, if you fail as an economist, unless you're embezzling

money, people will just be like, oh, whatever, try again. But if you fail as an artist, people might hate you. That's way, that's way scarier. No, like, I hated your message and you should jump in a river and you're like, oh, fuck, you know. So it's, it's a much more vulnerable position to take. Um, but I, in my opinion, uh, more important, but then again, I am also a dp absolutely but i'm i'm i'm much less scared about uh being hated than not being seen at all you know like yeah yeah if if you are hated then it means then that okay you put something ready gun out and you are like provoking people or like challenging them and of course nobody will it's it's not possible that everybody loves what you do sure so um that's that's not my fear i have

like tusking on that if you hate it okay let's talk about it why i mean it can have a lot of reasons why do you hate what i did or like why don't you agree always up for conversation well like let's put your word out and and exactly that's that's a good point that let's start conversations throughout let's open up topics watch it and then we can discuss or not discuss but Yeah. Right. Yeah. You can discuss with anyone else, but at least you are discussing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like that idea of, I don't know, there's like a funny made-up name for it on the internet. But a lot of times, if you want the right answer to a question on the internet, uh, pause it the wrong answer, tell people like, hey, this is how you do something. And then in the comments, there will just be a thousand people saying you're wrong and this is how you're actually supposed to do it. And it's way more. effective to do that than just ask the question. So in the same way, I feel like if you

make a piece of art that pisses people off, that oftentimes can be the yin to that yang, so to speak. You know, you can get the correct answer out of people by making them angry enough to want to correct you. Yeah, absolutely. That's a funny place. So what, um, Did you always know you? Go ahead. I just wanted to add something to make things in the correct way that I just, it made me think about my student times, which was actually great. Because as I said, I didn't climb the classical ladder. Yeah.

what I really liked in those years that yes of course we learned techniques we knew we know how to expose the film we knew how to measure the light but actually they always said like do whatever you want try and fail

trial error try an error and really these years were so precious to be able to make mistakes because I did like a bunch of them and I had a vision I want to do this but like okay let's do there and wow it didn't feel called it didn't work out so like okay how do I do it next time but you know we we had the equipment and the material and the people I mean we helped each other so basically that's what we did for long years like working for each other on set in in every kind of positions and failed and failed and fail then and and that's amazing because I realize like okay they say the clever people they learn from mistakes of the others I don't agree I think I learned from my own mistakes I'm with you I'm with you so I mean yeah maybe there are people who can learn some mistakes over there no I have to I had to go through a lot and and and I did a lot of mistakes and it was in a

protected environment where yeah of course it was cool if your second year movie went to can or whatever so and it did so success also came but because I always took the risk and I always took the risk to fail and maybe yeah I failed in that particular decision lighting decision but basically the risk was so that the stakes were so high in other decisions that it was still good enough to raise attention. Yeah, I mean, that's the classic thing, right? Like, whatever people say is film school worth it and like, well, you could probably learn what film school would teach you in a book or whatever,

but the environment is far more important, that environment, that protected environment, as you said, to fail. Totally, totally. I mean, out of the film school, I think it would have been super hard to get these people to work free for you. like the come on I mean the basic experience

was like we are a bunch of want to be filmmakers there and so that you can do your movie in your crew I'm an other cinematographer you need at least

depending on a story and depending on your equipment but two three four five six people just for a low budget very low budget no budget short movie it means if they help you you're going to help like five six times to them for free and that was the deal but like it's very hard to get this kind of resources in people who are

like loving to make films just because you call them like hey i have an idea come and work for me and again and again right right so i think that's why i'm that's that was the biggest advantage of film school and of course you learn a lot yes but but but this protected environment and experimenting and failing which is not the case in a lot of film schools like a lot of places

you have a huge pressure of budget and they're huge expectations of which festival you get into and this pressure was much lower at my time better than

it didn't go for it had this commercial pressure was much less. So we could fail much more, as I think people can feel recently. Yeah. Did your college, had the films been kind of established by that point by the time you got there? Oh, yeah. It was actually a free academy based in the 60s. So I went to the West Berlin one. It's called the FFB, German Seaman Salvation Academy. And when it started, it was really just a bunch of people who wanted to think about films together and make

together so the divisions came later on and later on and they were more thinkers and filmmakers in a free space so very briefly that's the the history of the of the best german academy that's why it's an academy because it was kind of this self-diy let's do it together thing yeah and and the each one was most was was was more there yeah the divisions classical building up so they had that yeah that's a good old save you don't like the methods like the plan how right took teach filmmaking the uh the film school i went to my college you know full university uh the film school had started two years before I got there. So my class and I, which luckily we're all still friends and we all, you know, work in L.A. together, so it's fine.

But they did not. Now that it's the Arizona State Film School. I'll give them credit. Now it's amazing. They have their own stage. They have color correction suites. They have their shooting film, I think. They've got all this equipment.

It's great. And when I was there, they barely knew what to teach us. And we all had to fight over one five D. That's all they had. So that was more of a That's when I talk about like Oh what you need film school It's like well the friendships I made there were very important

But the stuff I learned Didn't matter That was the New York Film Academy I went to beforehand Most probably you learned How to fight Yeah And you fight ourselves before the 5th Oh and obviously like there was like you know

the people who it was the classic like breakfast club you know there was like jocks there was nerds there was the whole thing so like the people who are super film nerds are like just really good writers or whatever you know they would find people to get behind them so they would get the one five d and the rest of us would get like a beat up dbx of which there was like two you know it's a very uh interesting time but uh when where is i going to go this oh yeah so so cinematography Did that just feel like a natural form? You said you were a photographer before, but how did you know that cinematography was the move

and not something more, I guess, practical, like being a first AC, which is it maybe, is it just because you have that strong voice, I suppose, that certainly it took me a long time to learn how to hone. I'm much more comfortable as an AC, it's less stressful. It was not obvious. I mean, in Hungary, there were no female cinematographers at all.

So maybe in documentary sometimes or TV, but it's still very rare, especially in cinema. So there was no example for that, no, but I never had the idea of that. So like photography, yeah, that happens, but this category just didn't exist. And when I moved to Berlin, then it was the first time I saw a woman with a camera, which was actually

Sophie Montague trained cinematographer who was also a teacher and some there were some more examples later on but in Berlin I kind of could imagine it

the first time like actually I could be a cinematographer so even though I did camera work back then in Budapest on these exercises it was never really an option what you think about

what I thought about back then seriously. And then by time, I mean, when I realized, like, filmmaking, of course, obviously first like directing, because then later on, by on also at the Art Academy before, by doing video art, I understood that what I love the most is to create the image and to create the image, meaning finding the form yeah find finding the perfect form and and it's also the combination of being conceptual and being emotional and yes i i i had of course i have a lot to say but i i realized that that's not my main goal that's not my first drive so i i have i have I have my points of view on the world, but I also saw that, wow, there are people who are doing it much better.

And actually, what is really my main interest is, is this part. Like, okay, there is the content and there is the input. And, like, of course, there are plenty of different directors with different approaches. It's a big topic, like how a director and cinematographer works together. but it's like feeling feeling the the onion and like finding okay where where is the where is the where is the middle and and work around it right yeah and i think i come more from this really conceptual part and very art house cinema and because i think i think i really I didn't want to, I don't like kits, I don't like when, when a movie really pushes there to make you want to cry and like, you know, this emotional, pushing like, oh, I don't know, I don't like, I don't like, I can't stand it actually.

But like, okay, how to, how to get the emotion without, without, like, overwhelming the viewer with the, but like like the real emotion which is which is a much more complex human reaction or or or state so so I think that's the most exciting part for me in cinematography to find yeah to find a form and then and then the practical part is also very exciting when you are a bit more alone like Like, of course, the look is still a common decision, but when you get into the, okay, how, what kind of light sources I want to use? So when it gets to the more practical part, I love that too. But that's not where my main interest started. I was ever like, wow, I want to use this LED lights. they go all of my life oh man

once I get a hold of a sky panel I'm going to be I'm going to be so professional exactly vortex the vortexes are great I have one right here amazing

I love them if I had known the vortex when I was 23 right I saw them demoing the the tube by the vortex 8

at NAB and they just had it under a waterfall, they just put it under a waterfall and just let the waterfall fall on it for five days. And they're like, three days. And they're like, look, you can, you can use this wherever you want. Amazing. You can, you can really use it wherever. And it's, it's a great life. It's a great life. The, a little heavy though. Oh, did you. Really? Oh, yeah. Are those, are they, because you shot that in Berlin? We shot that in Berlin. That's how I basically, actually got into the project.

Yeah. So they, yeah. I guess that's a dumb question. Because I still pretty much, now I'm just talking about lights. I still pretty much only see sky panels on sets in L.A. But the vortex, I guess they got a bunch of vortexes in Berlin. We've got a bunch of vortexes in Berlin, but it's not so. So, you know, before the show, we basically were introduced to the vortexes.

and so the gaffirtold us like look they are even cooler than the sky panel so we got a show and since i haven't used the vortex before this shot they shoot so it was end of generic i think yeah it's funny i think i'm pretty sure vortex is an american company obviously a r is a german company so they just we could save a lot on shipping if you just keep each other just keep them on the we don't have to send them to each other um so you know you're saying that you're really into art house stuff but obviously pitch perfect not art house did you i assume you were you a fan of the first one because that one surprised me i thought it was going to be dumb when i was a kid or not when i was whenever it came out years ago and uh i really enjoyed it as someone who prefers like action

films and stuff no come on it should grow up in hungary like you are contaminated by long shots, like Vinat Armi-Klosia. Like it's art house cinema, it's long-shots. And amazing ones, really. So I'm like, I'm joking here because that's a big influence on me as well. But I see my Hungarian colleagues all around the world, like cinematographer colleagues, and you just cannot undress this long-shot education. All their reels are 30 minutes.

Absolutely. Like, yeah, in 11 minutes, like the real long, long shots back then. Yeah. But that's the we, we got it in our DNA, I think. So, so, yeah, Art Hall Cinema was, was absolutely my, my starting point. And then later on, musical. so my first my first short film at the academy was a musical so eight minutes on musical and it's again because musical has has an even bigger challenge in terms of combine the conceptual approach with the directing with the music with the set design so it's a wonderful combination

of, you have to prepare these scenes a completely different way than a narrative scene. So that was my interest. And then, and then speech perfect was like merging a lot of things what I really love. And yes, it's a comedy and it's completely different things because different thing to shoot because, yes, it's not art of cinema. I mean, the main thing is the acting, the jokes has to sit and your main goal is to show these amazing performances and it has to be funny and you want to see the actors. But this show was really offering the option to be also cinematic around these scenes. And that's what was really cool that in the transitions or not just in the transitions, but there were. some really challenging long shots, what we could make happen.

So we could really think free in how do you still keep it funny and make a true vibe, make something special within the scene or before the scene or after the scene and introduce Berlin. So basically the story is like bumper goes to Berlin. That's why it was shot on Berlin and a lot of on location shoots. was a really good challenge, I have to say. Yeah. I mean, it looks, to your point about keeping it cinematic, like, I remember the first

movie coming out, and it looks like, you know, early mid-2000s comedy. There's like a very specific look there. And even just based on the trailer, you can see that this show, TV shows are getting so good these days. Like, it looks far more like I would think of as a movie. It almost looks like, it almost kind of looks like an. action film. Like it's it's incredibly like stylized in it in a very cool way. Yeah. Why not? You know, you can you can go there and still I think there is still some

many things what you shouldn't forget when when shooting a comedy. But otherwise exactly it's it's it's merging different drones and it also depends on the the plot because for for example in the in the pilot the main character is is a lot of time alone in the screen or on the phone or like going from somewhere to somewhere or they are the two of them and that allows you to to make a different path or like to um it gives more flexibility in one way how to be cinematic uh compared to another scene when they are five of them in a room and it's like bang, bang, back, back, back, joke, joke, joke. So then you really have to put your focus on that,

what is happening in on the performance. But still, like, if you really have the chance to think wild and to be bald, then why not to speak in a bit more action in a comedy or a bit more music? I mean, the musical parts were also, one is my favorite scene when we really made a long shot a long shot musical number like 360 and in an art gallery with a lot of lights and how do you build it up how do you think it through how do you how do you change how do you make a really flexible flying camera when you shoot everything around

and there is a choreography building up and you still don't want to lose the main performance and you still want to show that there is a lot of people and it's a long shot and you have a wonderful steady camera but you need to move him up and down and like I love to think about clever and still doable solutions

like how to hide ramps or how to change the key light during turning and by ramps you mean physical ramps not like speed ramps no no physical ramps yeah for example like how to how to hide it smart like yeah and and it's also i think it was a good school to be a kid in the soviet i was like okay you don't have anything but you want to do everything so like how do you fix things how do you think uh create about of nothing and and and it shows up a lot of times that you have a great idea but you

don't know how to like in this in this case actually we really had a lot of assets to work with so amazing crew amazing resources and that's why we also could be so bold but otherwise sometimes a simple solution is it's just much better than yeah hide the ramp or like yeah move them move them a bit here and a bit there and okay you have to make like three more rehearsals but actually the result is amazing yeah do you uh so you had not shot a comedy before this i did i did a miniseries in berlin but it was not my main profile i yeah i i i i i I did But not

Yeah Are there Like this one Sure Because I assume Was this Obviously there's a ton of choreography That goes into any

Musical number Like everyone's got to hit Their marks Both physically marks And just in general You know Every department has to be absolutely on But I assume in the more comedic

Sense Was that were all those scenes Incredibly scripted Or was there a lot of You know Improv going on What were some of the challenges there as a DP just in the comedy sense that maybe you didn't foresee or maybe had to learn about? It was very precisely scripted, but I mean, the actors were really amazing.

And, you know, sometimes they just start to improvise and then it's amazing. And I'm sure that like a lot of things of, a lot of lines from this improv, going to stay in but in terms of of breakdown it was really precise so i would say like 95 percent it's uh it's shot after the breakdown so we were also very very well prepped with uh with ritchie yeah we were working with riche together and yeah but of coverage for sure um but still having the time for the creative part right so that was that was the big challenge of this show line okay we don't want to lose the the really creative shots but um but we want to have the options to to edit it the best way like later there

yeah so lots of coverage were you shooting multiple cameras or were you just doing a lot of takes all the time at least two cameras it was besides the long shots so they were like train steady combinations but two or three cameras most of the time yeah talk to me about your I'm always fascinated by talking to television DPs because there's an added element that I think a lot of people don't think about

which is your interaction with the other DPs that are working on the show very rarely is there one DPs for the whole show. So you did two episodes and your and your colleague did four. Is that correct? Exactly. I did three and four and he did one, two, five, six. So talk to me about how, how you guys kind of developed the look to,

if you developed the look together, did someone take lead? Like, what was your guys' working relationship like? I mean, other DPs, Mike Sprague, amazing DP. and very good friend and he was shooting the pilot so obviously he was he was setting the look in terms and I was on yeah of course we discussed a lot about how should it look like and and what keeps it together but I also just went on set a lot of times and just looked what he was not done so much actually of course we discussed about the look but a lot times he just said like able to what you want you do great stuff i trust you do your same black

white hell yeah no but you know like even in terms of um there are some dream sequences or when when bumper is dreaming or there is this very romantic theater which turns into a nightmare and then i'm totally free in my filter choices like okay how do i want to get um get this contrast between the two atmospheres of like really warm romantic um yeah so like i had a huge freedom in in this terms but we did the lens test together he made uh camera choice was was uh was basically given so like by him but we tested lights together we tested lenses together

and when we discussed that but he was he was the DP who's like the lead DP some of what I really appreciate it like okay just do it and what was also nice that I sometimes when we had like huge

scenes where we had like four or five cameras I also jumped in to operate for him And the same time, he was also jumping in to operate for me. And that was also like a nice gesture, but also experienced the other DP to work, to operate for each other. That was also cool, bullshit to them. Yeah. So what, what camera package did you settle on then? We shot the mini-Ls, like, large format, and the ambulance is.

Gorge, I love those things. is so good. Totally. Totally. But it's also like, yeah, what for? You know? So it made sense for it. Yeah, of course I have lenses which I love. I love, for example, the key 35. But like it always depends on the, again, back to the, back to the content, back to the plot. What is the film? Why? Why do you choose the key 35 or the DNA just because you love it? Just because it's trendy, just because everybody's shooting yeah so exactly and no no no because there's a reason yeah but the DNA was amazing for this yeah does was there oh go ahead no no no just i have to mention you that thought who was shooting them the pilot he also came to the lens test and it was also nice

just to so we me and mike we went through some options and then later he he jumped and like mhm so it was also a common decision yeah richie was not in the in town yet did uh how long have you known mike but not for so long i was shooting a project in hungary a canadian canadian movie so basically half year before i'm here before the show so uh you know one thing that i've really uh loved about doing this podcast is by talking to, I think I'm, I think your number 85, 85 DPs, I've learned a lot, you know, and I've also learned in that time that oftentimes DPs don't talk, not that they don't try to, but, you know, you don't, it's kind of a singular job. You have your crew, but there's not

other, often other DPs. So I'm wondering if there's anything that you learned from Mike potentially, or maybe anything you taught him that you can think of that comes to mind that maybe maybe other people can glean from that working relationship of course i learned a lot from mike um i learned a lot from mike because uh mike is a very experienced tp and this range of budget what we were handling um there were some decisions where what wouldn't come super automatically for me. I tell you an example. Like, my highest budget feature films or projects before, like, really didn't come close to this one.

And the biggest challenge was that, like, there was zero overtime. So, like, you have to, you have to, you have to make your day. And five minutes, maxing. And basically if you see that you have a really tight schedule and you have a lot to shoot and of course you have multiple cameras but like so you calculate and this this higher budget calculation was that's why I was following up the previous series is and like like the the second third one the first and the second one and I have I have so experience in that but for example I see that okay for the third scene we got to be tight on schedule and then then i was asking him like do you think it's doable or what would you do in like come on order a third dolly with a third dolly crew so that they can prepare because you will win 30 minutes and within the 30 minutes they can prepare you can make your day 30 minutes overtime costs much more for the whole production rather than just order an extra dolly

with three grip guys and that's it that's what they came for for that's 30 minutes and you know this way of thinking was was not new for me but on this range it was uh it was good to have this routine in this you know like and it's a lot uh it has a lot to do with production I'm an economist, so I can think that way, but how to be bold there and what to push, what not to push, where to find, where does it make sense to work for a half more day, how to make your compromises in this level of budget when it's like, okay, like every minute is like, dang, dang, nine, nine, you hear that not the coin spalling, but you hear. yeah but every decision you make every little mistake you make it's it costs a lot and you just have to be really sure what you are doing and why you are doing it and and that's that's where I saw the security like how secure he is dealing with this pressure and responsibility and that was cool because yeah I could pick it up and like he was just telling me just

listening to his way of thinking about some some budget decisions so it's like okay yeah sure he's right but like in a feature movie like in my last feature film i couldn't have done it just like oh for that certain minutes maybe an extra crew right oh no no no it is yeah it must feel kind of scary that first time that happens where they're like oh we'll just throw 500 000 of this problem for 30 minutes and you're like, excuse you? And they're like, yeah, well, it'll cost two million later. And you go, oh, I guess. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. That's, that is, it's the credit card problem, you know, spending, spending tomorrow's money today. As well. Yeah. Yeah, it has well. The, um, oh, go ahead.

Not just that, but, you know, not to be afraid. Like, of course, to know what you want. And if you're not sure, then go around it and discuss it with your hellies, with your partners in crime. And what was never my attitude, like, to act out of dominance, just like, let's do it because I said it. No, of course, I have. the last word on a lot of things but but if if there is like um okay that might be

problematic just put it on the table and discuss it and even even if there is like huge pressure and like what it's she's not sure about that well i'll know it's better to to discuss it and and and then with this um yeah security you go for it you go for your decision This is, I suppose, more of a personal question, but does confidence come easily to you? Not at all. Not at all. And especially, I go back to this, like, woman with a camera. I come from this, like, technical things.

We don't give it to your hand. I mean, that's my background. And, like, slowly, slowly. No, the confidence came by doing the mistakes, you know, what I told you before then. okay, I just know what I know. And I did that mistake, so I'm about to do that again. And I had the chance to make a lot of mistakes. And I think that what gives you confidence that, first of all, you don't do those again.

And secondly, you have this vision. You just want to do this. And it's so precious. You just want to go for it. You know, you want to see how it looks. And it's a very childish desire. but I think if we lose it, then it's really pity. Because that's what it's calling, like, we want to really create this film.

And if you're not confident, then you're not doing it. So when you're on set and you've got your crew looking at you and you're not quite sure what to do, what's your method of being able to take a second and figure out? Because I know Roger Deacons has said a number of times the way that he would like take a minute to himself is he would just put his eye in the eyepiece and everyone would leave him alone but really he would just be like spacing out just like ah shit

I don't know what the hell I'm doing oh god that's great depends on if you need a word with a director I mean if it's something what you have to discuss it's just give us a minute

and like let's talk and I think it's it's always crucial I mean if you if you want to discuss something with him there always have to be a second for this or two minutes or five minutes for this so like if there is something wrong then then go for it if it's my decision if it's if it's if we are talking about this moment okay it sounds funny but i just ignore questions and i'm like i'm like i'm like really

calm on set, you know, so I get it. But I also already got it like, well, sometimes you look like an artist because you are like just, you know, you just go through and as if you wouldn't hear anything. And of course I filter because I understand this intention to do that because there's always like plenty of questions and like just give me two minutes where I don't, where I don't get these questions and and I know but I think I just learned to filter it out and I stare somewhere higher than the eye level I think I look at a lamp so that they think that I'm looking at the light and like should I change the color I think I stare at a length yeah the advantage to having the advantage to having the beard is I can do this and people think I'm really you know thinking

real hard when in reality I'm like man this is soft but I did want to ask about kind of we kind of touched on it a little bit but in terms of building the look for the pitch perfect show was there any sort of references that you guys were going by or any kind of um I don't know lighting ethos that really stuck or was it kind of more just trying to make it look the way it was supposed to be you know maybe more natural or something like that more things um definitely like okay berlin and what is what is berlin offering and what is the image of berlin for the americans because it's also something right the show once wants to show about Berlin and what real Berlin is about and the characters and based on the

characters there were there were really clear visions like build up around like who has what kind of world and our style which is also like Mike has a very specific style and I I also have a style and it's it's not the same but it's It's really like close in a lot of terms of how do we deal with backlides and strong sources and contrast. So there was a big alliance in that from the beginning. So somehow it's a lucky case because, you know, sometimes you talk about things and you mean something else. but in this case it was not like that. So we really understood each other very well

in terms of how contrast-wise and large light source wise. I think there was an interesting difference as well. And it's again the plot that he had more the introduction parts where every character had their own looks. And you know, it's a clear thing to set up, Right. Set up the look of the DJ or set up the first location when you get to know the guys, the gang. And I had later on more locations when they all get together somewhere else.

So I cannot really locate it back to the original character look. And I think it ended up in a way that, for example, I might have a bit more colors in some scenes than he has. which is totally in the frame because I mean totally I think it's it's actually nice as well but you know so it's even if you talk about the look like the story leads you to somewhere else and and the look is anyway defined in a lot of ways like you worked with the same guffer which is which is a we had a really good gother and we discussed these things so for example it's also something I, of course, I watched all the dailies what Mike was shooting before. And where I had a dilemma, like, okay, I would do it like this, but I knew that he would do it like that. And then I, then, for example, it happened that I discussed it with the gathers. Like, actually, there, and then I said, like, oh, let's go for, let's go for keeping the look in this case.

But in another case, I was like, no, I think it's just so good. that way, that I want to introduce a new color, I want to introduce a new black light, or I want to lead it to the red, what didn't happen before, but I think it's so good here that. And this depth we didn't discuss, so that was my freedom in this. But he was my deities as well and being exchanged opinions. Yeah. Well, the colorist is going to have to fix all of this. You know, you mentioned something that I thought was kind of interesting about, a little bit earlier, about making Berlin for an American audience. I'd love if you could kind of expand on that and tell me, like, what does Berlin look like for the American audience and what does Berlin look like to Berliners, maybe in a visual sense? Okay.

I led myself into a trap with this. Got him I mean, you know, the locations what we show in Berlin they are in Berlin so it is it is Berlin The selection

Actually Yeah, it's a long question and okay, I live here for 15 years and of course I know the city from a different aspect as well. So, and I know it's not just for Americans, but you know, Berklin has, as it's called,

like, what is it famous for, for the clubbing scene, for the, a lot of things, which is not just a clubbing scene, but it's a strong part in the series. And anyway, there is this European-American contrast jokes, like they pop up all the time, also the history also. So maybe I would just put it in a different way that, yeah, okay,

it highlights the Berlin, aspects which are like widely known but like living here it also offers a lot of other things which which I have no space in a in a comedy like

pitch perfect right why not so the graffiti the street art oh sure yeah yeah tattooing just like that but yeah

it is very so Berlin is much more than that, but maybe you, obviously, you cannot show everything in, serious. Well, yeah, because you've got like the classic, uh, breaking bad did it, you know, I think popularized this joke, but obviously the, uh, anytime an American production goes to Mexico, everything just becomes sepia toned. They just put like a tobacco five on the lens and they're like, Mexico. Berlin is just like concrete

Just just brutalist Brutalist architecture and gray Yeah He sat the hell out of it Yeah With some graffiti Which is also like desaturated Yeah

Yeah yeah They only sell graffiti and black, gray And deep deep red Um Yeah I did want to know, because this is a question that comes from an uneducated mind, but obviously German filmmaking, French filmmaking, you know, various pockets of Europe have their own kind of looks. And I was wondering if you could kind of inform me, I suppose, on what

differences you've noticed between a general like german cinematographer what what their um strokes tend to be versus uh what you've seen more in like american media it's hard to generalize it's it's hard to say i would see different methods of working but um I don't think I will say it is kind of I will say it is kind of a dumb question especially nowadays because I guess that's more of a historical question because nowadays everyone kind of steals from each other you know we have access to streaming from other countries you make tons of stuff on criterion you know Scorsese's world cinema projects stuff that you wouldn't have access

to even 20 years ago um without really trying to get a hold of get a hold of it or knowing about it whereas now it does feel like a lot of media is all kind of melting potted up a bit that's definitely true especially

since the streaming platforms took over so like absolutely now every story with a bit of exaggeration like each story could be shot in each city and yeah it's absolutely merging in a lot of terms.

And and wow, if you are talking in very general, then I think these streaming platforms are trying to highlight exactly

the main lines of this cities where they are taking in place of, and it's more about choosing. So it's more about said design, choosing the colors, okay, what are the colors in France? What are the colors in Berlin? So for example, if it's a vivid comedy,

it has different saturation and different colors in the US than in France or then in Germany. And on the same time, on the other hand, if it's a dissaturating thriller and like very blue, very gray, it also has a different touch. But it's so, general what i'm what i'm saying that we should go more in in in examples and details so so it's hard to say exactly exactly because there is this huge melting melting melting

pot everywhere around the thing that struck me as funny in uh film school was we had a few you know Foreign Exchange students or whatever. And they were all fascinated by the fact that we really did use Red Solo Cups. They all thought that, like, movies invented the Red Party Cup. And then they, like, went to their first party. And they're like, holy shit, you guys do have the Red Party Cups. And we're like, yeah, what about? Really?

I don't believe. Yeah. Can I buy these? You're like, they're $10. They're $3. You can have as many as you want. that's that's the american look is red party cups that's the american comedy look that was a big part of pitch perfect the first movie totally yeah i've never seen any

in my life although i've been there have you not really so maybe that's funny that's funny say the same life you really have you really hold on yeah but come on for example how the there we go i got i got one right here but lina brittzel fest is it's shown in in p oh yeah okay it that's right oh the brittal fest is a traditional german fest in the in the comedy come on it it will never look that way so it's it's completely a fiction like okay how americans would imagine that the britts a festival fest like with all traditional clothes would look and yeah it's it's funny but it's like it's a fiction it's completely made up and but it's fun yeah you know we're uh we're coming up on time a little bit uh so i i will let you go but um i asked the same

two questions of everyone at the end of the podcast uh and they are as follows first one if you were to obviously it's a television show so it's a little more difficult but if you were to program a double feature with umper in berlin what would what would you make the other film or series if i must be one of the other pitch it can't be the other pitch perfect uh uh uh double feature like people are going to go to the theater and see i don't know the pilot or maybe maybe these people have really they've had a lot of coffee they can watch the whole series but uh what would be the uh the Second film in the double feature. Okay, this is funny.

But I play the Sherbourg. It's a very old musical from a French musical. The umbrellas of Sherboard. The umbrellas of Sherboard. Okay. Cutting the review back then. I'll have to look that up. That's funny.

Yeah, I thought that would be like a fun question when I came up with it, and it stumps everyone. And I'm like, damn, that's way harder than I, I didn't think it's going to be that hard. The second question, you know, everyone likes to talk about, oh, what's the best piece of advice you ever got? No. What's the worst piece of advice you ever got? Poor sign autographers. Yes. I mean, I guess life advice counts too, but...

Take a job what you actually don't want to do. You just don't need for the money. If you don't find any drive in you, any inspiration, then don't take it. If you cannot connect to it, then... then don't enjoy it. Yeah, that can be especially difficult depending on where you live, right? Because like sometimes you go on a four-month dry spell, no one offers you anything, and then you get offered some terrible job, but you're like, shit, I need to pay the rent.

That's, yeah, sure. But that's my advice, because I think it's worse. Yeah, and I was really poor for a very long time, but I just didn't want to do things what I really cannot connect to. Or I didn't see that, okay, that's what I'm going to learn from it. I really have to do it. Because at the end of the day,

it gives you a good selection of recommendations. So, like, thinking about it, that, okay, you do it well, what you do, and they're going to call you. then it's based on that what you want to do so you don't want to get into circles what is not interesting for you well and also

I think something that people obviously this should be the case in any job but especially in a creative field it's kind of implied that especially if you're going to be doing it for less money than you should artists need creative nourishment

it's not necessarily about commerce or the end product or whether how you know how many tickets you're going to sell most artists get into creating because they want to learn something about themselves or learn something about their peers um and share that knowledge and if you can't have that uh it really sucks it really it makes the job so much harder when you're just trying to dig from an empty well I think it doesn't worth it. Yeah. Really.

But it's of course a choice for everyone, but I prefer to have blessed but good. On the long term, I think it works out better. You're going to do things what you really go for. Yeah. And it'll also kind of keep you accountable because I'm sure you've, well, maybe not you, but I've certainly done jobs where, as a younger lad, where I didn't want to do it, so I phoned it in, you know. And it's a lot easier to phone it in on a job.

You just do not give a shit about. And that's not good. That's not good. You know, they hired you, so you do have to try. But it's, yeah, that's a toughie. Well, I think it applies only for cinematographers. It doesn't apply for technical crew. like yeah yeah yeah as a guffer as a first they see as a lighting do just go and do it and learn

but as a cinematographer you really need your inspiration yeah you don't have to be inspired to pull focus sometimes you do but someone the directors watching the monitor and you're just kind of like fiddling with the back of the focus ring like what oh yeah no it'll be fine I put it at F-16. Everything's a focus. Who cares? Well, thank you so much for talking with me this morning, or this evening, depending on where you are. I really appreciate it. That was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having this chance to talk to you. Have a good day. It was a good one. Yeah, yeah. Once I get to your time, I'll let you know how good mine win as well.

But yeah, please, next time you do something, please come back and I'd love to talk with you about that, too. Thank you so much. Frame and Reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidio Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.