Frame & Reference Podcast - 84: "Firefly Lane" DP Vincent De Paula, CSC

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Welcome to another episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast. This week Kenny talks with cinematographer Vincent De Paula, CSC about his work on the Netflix show "Firefly Lane." Enjoy! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan. Today, we're talking with Vincent DePaulus, CSC, the DP of Firefly Lane, the television show. In this podcast, we talk about, you know, film versus digital, of course. We talk about the artistic decisions and logistical decisions that a cinematographer has to make. We talk about his earlier work. We talk about British and American cinema. All kinds of amazing things.

Nice, long conversation with a lovely man, and I know you're going to enjoy it. So I'll let you get to it. Here's my conversation with Vincent DePaula. Just as a quick note, the first six minutes or so of this podcast, we were having some connection issues. over Zoom, but after that, it clears right up and everything sounds great. So don't worry about that. Please enjoy this episode. Are you watching anything interesting right now? Anything that you like? Right now, right now, because I came to Spain for the Christmas. It came as holidays. And it's in the Sala of Dabin and Ithaca. That is down to Spanish. Just can't. So right

now, I really want to be Chinese. I'm doing watching staff. I like to watch that, lot of that. But anything like, like, like, like new, I just go completely, you know, out of it. Yeah, we wrapped, I'm going to show now that we're filming in Vancouver and we wrapped about two weeks ago. Oh, really? Yeah, I haven't managed, yeah, I haven't managed anything. It's just playing with a family, you know, here in Spain. Yeah.

So you're, and you're from Spain, obviously. From Spain. Yeah, I was born here. I was born here. I moved to England pretty young. Once I discovered that I wanted to win the movies. And then when I'm from, yeah, I mean, when I'm from this not a lot of background in terms of film here. So I knew that I had to go somewhere else.

Yeah. Really? I figured, I thought there was a lot of film in Spain. That is now, though. And it's going to places like Madrid for sure. for sure. I'm in northern Spain in an area called Galicia where there's no much of that. And, you know, if I had to live anyway, you know, I'd rather go somewhere where, you know, I thought at the time, I was pretty young, I was 19 or so, where what I thought that, that could

really expand my north theater so like cinematography. And of course, you know, language. I didn't want language to the barrier, even though still is sometimes. So I wanted to repeat that, you know, in English way, You know, and at the time, you know, Spanish movies were very Spanish, the Spanish industry in general was very Spanish-based. You know, the themes were very Spanish, you know, right now, or in various things, you know, because the game was supposed to create no movies and series, even on Netflix, that they can be set anywhere else in the world. But at that time, my film was all very localized, and I need them all. So that's what I made me both out here. Yeah, you know, the, it's unfortunate. But my first, yeah, I went to film school thinking,

I guess it was kind of the opposite where I thought that, like, most, I could get away with thinking that most film was from the U.S. when I was a kid. And so my first blush with what I thought to be Spanish cinema was Pans Labyrinth. I was like, wow, they're doing good out there. Yeah, and that would be taught pretty close to what I'm from, like, like, one or two hours away. You know, but we weren't an amazing film. I mean, that the business is incredible. Yeah.

That was a, that was in the Spanish. You know, there's not a lot of like, but in Spain, it's not really known for both to make. Of course, you go to Madrid and go to Barcelona, I'd even more there. But it's not missing out really industry here. I went to at Canada feminist school here, where it's Julianne, everything.

You learned about, I mean, anything. You didn't have a lot of variety of all sides of photography. You know, it's a radio. You know, it's kind of like images and sound. It's cool. And we've just pretty poor. It allowed you to, you know, to watch most with your friends and just start exploring in my that way likely, you know, even though most things are in the Spanish.

It's just in the European cinema, which I really, you know, I really like. I really grew watching European, European movie and it really got me into it. And as a young kid, you know, watching a movie where you don't know where the movie's from. You know, I said, that's a dab in Spanish, and you have no idea. But you watching worse than John Wayne and really, boys. And then, of course, you didn't really have to the reality, it's completely, you know, kind of like, you know, blow my mind. You know, there was, there was this, I think it was the one time, and I think it was Tuesday. And I, pretty late at night, I used to do that my parents created where

Duke was movies in English with titles. And that was, like, amazing. And I was pretty young when I discovered that, and I was learning also, you know, I was learning the language. I was also reading books in English as well. Because I find that it's fine to read or watch stuff, you know, that can't translate it to different language. But it's not the same.

You can't really translate the same feelings and the same emotions to different language. It was pretty interesting. So at the time, I thought, well, you know, we're going to go to London. It's closer to Spain than anywhere right now. And I go to school there. You know, I developed my English there. And I became a DP, you know, strategy years in that, in that country. And I thought that was a great school as well.

Yeah. For me, it's got this industry. You know, moving from Spain to England, was there much of like a cultural, culture shock like artistically there? Were you able to kind of assimilate very well? Or were you even interested in assimilating or was there kind of like a chip on your shoulder in that regard? It was, you know, it was quite a contrast to be honest. I mean, Spanish culture is so distinctive, so different to what, different in a good way, to many others.

But, you know, I had a lot of friends who were there already and they had a transition into British culture. And, you know, and I was pretty lucky that I got there at a point in that there was so much work. so I was able to get into pretty quickly. But, you know, but it's funny because I remember being there, and I was just one of the very few non-English people, not British people who were in the industry. You know, it's kind of like, you know, at the beginning of the little weird, you know, like I was,

I thought people were looking at me like, okay, this young kid with this accent, and then, you know, I was feeling that, where somebody was always, you know, that was braced around me. I mean, it wasn't a show, but he was but a contrast. And then, you know, but I adapt it pretty quickly, and I adjusted it. And once, once, you know, I became a DP there. Once, once that, that was going, it was so good.

It was really good. I spent many, you know, many years in England. And then, you know, I decided to move, you know. One of the things that I find about myself is that I get bored of things quite quickly. I don't know if I should be saying this. But, you know, I, um, as I had a woman, I jumped over to, I spent some time in L.A. Then I came back to Europe. And then I, I moved to North America, with time basis.

You know, it's like a decade ago. And then just to stay there. Yeah. Is it easier? Because I've wondered just watching British television where, like, all, it seems like, you know, especially on those panel shows, all the comedians are on everyone's show. I imagine all of the cinematographers are all working on like the same like is there is there only a handful of you is it easier to get started in the UK because it's certainly not easy in you know Los Angeles no but you know I guess at that point it was pretty busy though and and mainly you know I started being lost of documentaries and there was so many music videos as well as a bunch a bunch of music videos there and commercials too but um you know there was there was there was an easy there's a lot like really bad city as well of the the time that you could kind of get into but maybe it wasn't the right thing to do so you know

I was very happy doing independent stuff and like I said you know music videos and commercial they were so cool and so many things that you can do and explore and experiment and then it's lonely you know in this industry you have to be lucky as well I mean some some some good people that I'll have to get into some shows as a second NDP and you know once people like what you're doing They invite you to submit yourselves and download that and some stuff they didn't see. And it was pretty cool.

But I didn't know, the fact that I'm always working. That was pretty awesome. You know, maybe it was my case. I don't think it was too hard. Maybe I was lucky to, you know, but at the same time, you know, and I wanted to do this for the end of the podcast because I know that you asked this as well. You know, I was keeping an advisor on my career.

by a very well-known defense that I will stay with, I name. And this guy was telling me, you know, just to be very picky. Don't shoot everything. You know, just really choose to projects and, you know, and just be very, you know, really anal of those things. It just be very, very, very, very picky about that. That was Detroit wrong advice. You know, I would never say that if anybody's starting.

So, the matter of first, because you want to make mistakes. You want to shoot as much as you want as much as you can rather. But I didn't do that, though. I kind of follow his advice. little bit. And sometimes I regret, you know, that I could have done many more things back then. But I mean, who knows? Here we are now. Yeah. I mean, I think that, oh, those things, I keep bump this, Mike. I think that advice is, that's like an old guy's advice, right? That's like someone telling you, you know, you're going to be defined by your IMDB page, essentially. And so

if you have an IMDB page full of loser films or whatever they want to call it, then no one will hire you. And in my head, I'm like, yeah, okay. But on the other hand, like, from my perspective, like, I'd rather have where I'm sitting, you know, 10 kind of bomb films, not like good, like films that bombed, that shows that I'm working more than, you know, one amazing film. that I never get calls about because it's one and no one's going to, you know, maybe it was on Netflix for 10 minutes and no one's, you know, saw it or whatever.

I 100% agree. You know, and maybe maybe you are, when you're somebody, but you are doing good word from what you're always busy. Yes, because now I'm pretty picky. I need to go ahead with a story that I would tell. But I can take up like two years of your time. Right. Exactly.

But, you know, as a young cinematographer starting and learning the process, you really want to do us as much as you can and you want to make mistakes and you want to live from there. So that was the totally wrong advice. I would never say that to anybody. Sure. Was there any sort of like British filmmakers

or British films that you early on kind of gravitated towards that you thought like, oh, this is kind of what I want to make? Or was it all American film? Yeah, you know, like I said, you know, growing up, I really watch a little bit of movies. That's what I really really. really really like and uh but you know the goal was always just work in america right the goal is always just moved to the states and work on american films and try and try to bring that european

kind of approach to it i was never really into with this films i don't know if we have to edit this part of the book but um you know there's always the you know the james bond movies that that the classics right i mean right now there's so much i mean there's so much quietly in in terms of the technicians and the crew that you meet there and then to work with. And I was very lucky to work with some really fine crew there. And even to this day, I would say that to me, the finest technicians in the world from operators to golfers,

here's to me that's still British, and I said that, you know, very proudly. But the goal was never, you know, England was like a path, like a way to try to reach America. That's how I approached it, when I'm most there. So, yeah, I wasn't trying to follow anybody's path from there. Of course, it's amazing enough filmmakers that come from that part of the world. But the goal was obviously the most of America.

Sure. That was the answer to the question. But that was kind of my approach when I was a young kid. Well, I mean, it makes sense. You know, that was somebody actually, me and my girlfriend were just talking about recently. It was, you know, I had just bought the Martin Scorsese World Cinema Project, Blue Rays. blue rays, you know, because Barnes and Noble had that 50% off sale, and that's when I lose all my money. And she was like, well, isn't that kind of like whitewashing it or whatever? And I was like,

well, no, because no one's going to see those films unless he did this, but also we have to remember that film was invented here. Like movies were invented in San Francisco. And so it's a weird, It's like Coca-Cola, what I said was like Coca-Cola Disney and movies or like our three biggest exports and bombs. But, you know, and it's something that became so universal that we gave everyone this language that it's always fascinating to talk to other people who adopted it. And, you know, of course, you just want to come back to the source,

which feels very like, I guess that's where my American bride comes from, is just films, the language of film, you know. But when it's true, I mean, even, you know, when you're a young kid and I say, you know, you know, I find it very artistic and I really really love the style. But, you know, Jewish is one of those American movies. I mean, the dozen movies that everybody knows about, everybody talks about. You know, no many people can talk about Tarkoski. No many people can talk about Truffaut. You know, no many people know about it. Right. But you can always refer to Spilbert, Scossese, Coppola, you know. You can always just have any conversation with anybody in the world. And they will know who you're talking about. You know, that's actually, that brings up an interesting point because something that's like, that makes Tarkovsky, for instance, kind of inaccessible is not necessarily, you know, being Russian or anything, but like the length. Do you find that like most foreign to me, you know, most non-U.S. cinema is a response to American cinema? Because like you would think that, oh, you know, these days, everyone would just try to. make their version of American cinema, but it's like French New Wave, for instance, anything

like that, uh, was definitely bucking any trend that existed at the time. I mean, I don't know though. I mean, you know, I, I think that, you know, cinema, you know, Beck and cinema has his own language though. You know, I don't know that there's like, let's try to do this in an anti-American way where we're going to be doing very long takes, you know, and, uh, I, I don't know that it's like that that is going to exist right now. or he ever did. I think there's two ways I'm seeing film and expressing your ideas

and what you want to say with movies differently. Yeah, it could be. Survivorship bias, too. Like Tarkovsky, for instance, is the one who endured, so that's why, but that isn't representative of all Russian cinema or Soviets.

But I was one that, and I've been doing a lot of episodes to me lately where, you know, I love the long take. I love to give a take its time, you know, or share the viewer and to give the message that we want to give. You know, with Tarkoski, for instance, you know,

Tarkoski will always say that, you know, in order to express our feeling and emotion and what they give a message, you don't really have to use words. Yes, you know, images. But, you know, what I was saying earlier about episode to be, because, you know, we have to work in such, you know, the past pace and it's all about tidding, you know. I'm doing a sort of now that we're doing a leave,

we're not the opposite. We try to embrace the long taste. We try to embrace the wider source. It made the wider source will become a middle close up. And then the middle closer, maybe we move into a close-up itself without cutting. But I don't know, though, that,

I mean, I find it difficult, personally, to try to give that sense of process of how we want to shoot a certain movie or TV show with that process in my head, you know, with a long-take approach, let the take lift. long enough for the beer to appreciate it without having in the back of my head

is produced or that, hey, we've got to go to the close-up, you know. I believe that the close-up is so important that the least use the closet, the most important is going to be later on. Right. And I don't know that, you know, in the back of my head, the European standard is there, but sometimes I've had it really hard to even fight for that style,

you know, especially, of course, on TV, it's almost like possible. But the last couple of features that I did, it was a little similar as well, where you knew that the producers and even the directors as well, where, okay, that's great, but now we're going to do this a thing

and then we're going to do a, you know, 30% this way and maybe, you know, this always did the art of the cutting, not that closer. It's always going to end up in a closer. Do we need to always end up in a closer? I don't think so. Yeah.

So sometimes I struggle with that. I don't know. Yeah. Well, it's something that I actually noticed with David Fincher of all people. Because, you know, of course, everyone is a David Fincher fan, including myself. But he will, everything's a medium. And then there will be an insert, maybe in one scene. Usually in one scene there will be an insert.

And then it goes straight back to a medium. And if someone's getting shot or something, that's going to play in a wide. Right. You know, like it's all. very proscenium, as he, I've heard him describe it. And I do find that's a more compelling way to do it, you know, because I was talking to one DP and he was saying that, you know, a camera, you're just grabbing the audience by the ears and like pointing them around.

And the more you do this, the more jarring it is. And the more you just let it play, the more they can invest it. Like you're saying, especially with a long take. And also, I think with a long take, it allows the crew and that, actors to know whether or not something worked because when you're piecemealing it all together you kind of just go like I'm sure that'll look good in the edit and the and the logic of the shot or the scene can kind of get lost sometimes yeah especially on a lower budget a hundred percent you know if you can you can make your movie while you're shooting it you know and and sometimes

not give the editors the option to like make that different you know because it's true what you're saying We just pretty much, I mean, the way I feel wanted to do episode a little bit better is weird, we're shooting for the editors, you know, to show the ingredients to put, you know, to put this cake together at the end. And that cake can be so many, so different to, but you can be so different to, you know, if you, if you know, if you, if you know, if you, if you know, if you're not, you're doing it, do it there. You know, because, I mean, of course, I believe in the power of power of editing, of course, but I think it's important to know what you want to do. You know, but you want to. You to, when you're shooting it, and shoot for that, you know, with good planning. But again, TV, you know, and I don't want to make this sound weird or offend directors right now that come to episodic TV, but I kind of feel that there's a little, you know, if I'm directing right now, I feel a bit of a puppet, to the honest, because I'm pretty much being told by the writers, writers, all these notes. You know, you can get your take where you talk to the actor and you tell the actor,

of how you envision that's thing. But then you don't get a note from the show writer. Now you're going to do the talking different. That is most likely nothing to do with what you have to do it. And then you might get another note from a writer as well. So at the end of the day, you're going to do a, you know, a scene with three different versions there, which one is going to make the cut, the runner's version? You know, you're going to get your director's cut, but is that going to be the end?

Resort probably not. So, I mean, that's the other way. That certainly happens, you know. I'm sorry to start to be offended by what I've said. But, you know, I see a lot of this day, you know. It's something that I feel like I've pontificated on quite a bit is the era of 70s and 90s filmmaking where it was a lot more autour. And I don't necessarily believe that like auteur filmmaking is absolutely the most important thing. But I do think that letting one person.

have the final say is, you know, like, have, you know, the kind of, the way I was at least brought to understand a film set, at least in school, was, you know, everyone give your opinion to the director and the director will say whether or not that's a good idea. Not like, oh, and then not to pick on Disney, but I assume this is the case of Disney, you know, like Marvel's got notes, Feige's got notes, you know, Catherine, what's your name? the chick from Star Wars she's got notes and then also

you know whoever paid for this has more notes and you have to apply all of them right you don't get to pick and shoots and it's you know

filmmaking by committee absolutely absolutely I don't know if there's a solution for that especially in the you know streaming age where

it's a lot easier I shouldn't say easier it's uh film you know making a show is more readily available it feels like i mean like this go ahead no no i was i was going to say in in this so many of them right now i mean we are making so many to this year that it's almost becoming you know i'm i'm always saying it's i'm still working with crew you know in places like vancouver or toronto and i'm saying you know the discreet against cities because they're the ultimate to me

provide some services to Americans where the crew is always working. The coffee is always busy. The operators are always busy. Not so much for us. You know, we travel, you know, back and forth to different places. But I'm always saying that that's for them. It's like, you're making this coffee. You're making this after coffee.

And then, you know, that it's after this coffee, you're going to get another coffee shop after. That is pretty much lined out for you, this job after job after. And that's a question, do they care? You know what I mean? They're giving me their mouths, you know, they have their passion that they probably started with in their careers later on. Is that lost, you know? Is this becoming, you know, a machine, you know, making, or just making film, master's film, not so many films, obviously, by more TV after TV.

It is becoming so cliche now that we're going to be using the art of it, you know, and hopefully I'm wrong. Yeah. You know, it's, but it's worrying, though. It's worrying, because. Um, you know, sometimes I'm just talking to directors and, and, you know, the directors, you know, sometimes they don't have a show for months and sem massage cinematographers where those operators are, you know, land up another job a week after something is wrapped. And, and, you know, sometimes I'm talking, you know, what I consider a creative conversation

with a directorateau. And sometimes I want to bring the operators and walls and they call them. You just don't say anything. You know, it's like, yes, sure. whatever, it's great. We'll make it work for you, but can we just, you know, go on? And again, I don't want this to sound bad because not everybody's like this, but, you know, I see that more often than not.

I know, I'm not, I don't mean to complain either. And I just, you know, just standing that in the time that we're even right now, we've done so much TV that is becoming a little, like making a coffee. No, it's kind of good. it makes total sense because like a you know I'm sure for the lay person like we should all be so lucky you know

the idea would be like quit complaining you're making movies who you know who cares but at the same time it is a creative medium it is supposed to be an artistic medium you are supposed to be saying something hopefully not always sometimes you just do it for fun but like fun is also a form of you know

release not everything has to be so edifying um mentally but if i have yet to find a industry that is not being plagued by burnout in the past 10 years i think across the board it doesn't matter what industry you're in everyone is working at that breakneck pace and it is um right i suppose it is like i agree with you i feel like film didn't necessarily feel like it was going to reach our shores you know like no we get to work at our own pace and then the, you know, and those at the top are like,

n-uh, there's money to be made everywhere, bud. Right. You know, the social stuff that's how they call it. And I'm saying these to kind of like, make better what I said before, because I happened to be a bit about it's not necessarily true. But, you know, it has to be a passion there because we, you know, we work so,

so many hours, such long hours that you even have the passion for the job, but would you be trying that job? Right. You know, and, and I don't like, and I love my operators and my gabers. I don't want this to sound bad, but I see more of that lately. But again, you know,

I think, you know, without a passion that we all enter this industry, you know, we really can't make a career out of it, you know. I'm sure. Well, and I think my camera crew had just quit my job. I just send my email to just quit my, my gym machine's right now.

They're all listening to what I'm saying about it. Oh, wait, literally just now. but he might happen but I can also understand the like I can understand that like coffee you know just making a coffee mentality because like especially if the jobs are coming that hard you do kind of have to have a certain

detachment to especially if you don't know if your show is going to get picked up again like it seems like streamers are really quick to like cancel a show so like if you're just kind of neutrally buoyant you know if you're detached enough that you can just do every job with the same level of intensity. And that intensity is not maybe where a passion would be or a passion would put you. That does give you a certain longevity and does avoid burnout.

So it is kind of a coping mechanism almost. Right. And I was mainly referring to episodic as well. Sometimes you're working on a show, like that Triumphan, which is the show that just got released on Netflix. That was a 10-month process. It was a 10-month process. You know, we shot season 22 part. And, I mean, the queen's tired.

You know, I don't remember two months before rapping, they were all so tired. And they were talking to me, you know, being exhausted, you know. So it's kind of hard to maintain that, you know, that passion. Yeah. But again, 10 months, you know, 12-hour days, you cannot have to really love you today. Otherwise, what's the point?

Yeah. Are there, what are some ways that you find you're able to sort of detach in a different way? Are you able to mean, How are you able to maintain a 12-hour day for so long? You know, I love what I do to be on. I love shooting. You know, I'm, I never get tired of it.

Like, you know, when I'm breathing, I just want to just want to start shooting, you know. I personally don't have a problem at all. And even there's 12 hours. I could go on, you know, another two hours and just keep doing more stuff. Because there's never enough time to try to do what you want to do. you know weekends I draw my guitar

my kid you know I kind of like isolate myself I need a one day I wait that I do not want to know anything about the project that I'm working I just need that for my own piece of mind

not that I'm going crazy but I kind of need that I like to play guitar to listen to music or I have to watch movies you know and disconnect and sound base for instance is when I'm starting to prepping is I start flipping the week coming, the week ahead.

But that's my process. This show that we're a friend of half a length, 10 months. It was a little bit too long. But that's how I called. And I was the only DP. I was the only DP on the show. I shot the 16 episodes that we shot season two. I shot every single one of that.

That's crazy, actually. But maybe that's what I was saying earlier about it. You know, because I don't have a troll with that. And then I took another show right after. And over the last three years, I haven't still work. I just love it. I just love what I do. And maybe that passion that we were talking earlier, that you kind of have to have that. And, you know, but I get just easier as cinematographers to be able to do that. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose, especially because you're at a decision-making position. I feel like if you're in a lower position where you're being given orders, I'm, I'm

sure it can be more exhausting, especially if you don't agree with those, the decisions being made, but it can be a little tiring. Although I will say, I certainly love taking a job where I'm being told exactly what to do, because it's just like, all right, cool, cool, cool, you know, I guess, like, I won't name names, obviously, but yeah, I did one gig and the director was a DP, I guess, in his head. So he just told me exactly. You know, this is where the camera's going. We're doing the lights like that. And I just went like, this is amazing because I didn't turn off my brain, obviously.

But I was looking for mistakes. But instead, I just got to kind of beat. You know, it's like every time I've done a first day C job, I've always been like, this is great. Because all I got to do is focus on focus. You know? And then I'm like this. And then I get to go home and not think about anything after that. Yeah.

And it was kind of like that for that kick. Sandus is a nice break. You have that, right? I remember, I worked with a director once, and he was exactly like that. You know, this is going to be a 50 meal, and it's going to be right here. And it would have 50 million. And I would say, do you want to look at 40? No.

I'm trying to put out 30. I would not. It is a 50, and I'm right there. And it's fine. It's the vision. And we are here to translate that vision into images. But, you know, it's okay. It's a break, but I'd rather be challenged.

And, you know, I would rather have a director telling me, I don't like that. You know, give me something next. Give me something better. And, you know, that pushes me, that puts my creativity to try to do that. You know, I don't like when directors, yeah, I love that. You know, it's good to hear. If you have this in every single take, I kind of worry, okay, maybe this is becoming a little too easy.

Maybe this is becoming too predictive. Let's try to do something a little more edgy. I like the challenges, but, you know, directors are different. Some directors are not technical at all. Some directors don't know anything about lenses. Right. So I know everything about it. And you just have to adjust to them.

I mean, that's part of our job as well. We have to, you know, and now we say the being a partner kind of like helps me now, try to, how I approach people. I think I can understand people a little better than I used to. Because you kind of have to be a partner sometimes to some directors and try to guide them through even their own process, especially on a show where I am the VP on this show and I'm like two seasons or so. And it's like 26 episodes, have this visual language and I'm on the show so well. and sometimes trying to guide them through the things that we do and sometimes trying to fight we don't do those things on this show

but I love what you think and let's try to come by then let's try to make it a little more the show within your style but that's something I like as well if I was the same and it's right David Fincher like you said earlier it would be boring

it would be pretty boring well and that's actually something that I think we should touch on a little bit because I don't, for people who are listening who aren't necessarily in the film industry, I don't think people understand how the DP is ostensibly the director's right hand in most creative decisions. And so you end up doing some form of directing on the creative side, because obviously a director is handling everything.

But from a creative perspective, you end up doing some form of directing. You have much more control over the film than I think people think. It's not just lenses and lights. Like, there is a lot more creative direction going on. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Some day to need that more than others, you know. But, no, for sure.

You know, and also a lot of people who think that would just go and shoot, print pictures. There's so much to the job. You know, I think, and I say that a lot to my crew, they want to just quit on me. After listening to what I said earlier. No, you know, like, shooting is actually the easy part. You know, it comes to a point where going there and shooting what you have already discussed with the director in preparation, what you have already planned for. That's the easy part. You know, and then, you know, hopefully, and oftentimes you discover new things that you didn't plan before, and that's great. But this, this, the management of your crew, the scheduling with ADs, you know,

there's so many things involved in our job that people don't even think on. And that may be like 70% of what we do, you know, it's insane. It's absolutely insane. So sometimes just going out there and shoot, it's just so refreshing. And you kind of think, well, this is really what I was born to do. This is really what I really like to it. This is really what I, you know, I want. to be doing all the time and I can't because I have to manage crew.

I mean, some people have left the show, you know, the equipment hiring, you know, the so many things, we never stop doing things, you know. And on a show, like, the last show that I did, you know, the decision making has to happen so quick. And then, you know, being the only thing on the show where I can, you know, I can release car locations properly, you know, I can't do prepping with the accounting directors within enough time. You know, it's, it's kind of stressful, but at the same time, I, and this is just me, I kind of like that, you know, versus my activity, you know, and I kind of embrace

those moments, you know, and I try to be positive, you know, more than that day for those days, right? But, yeah, but again, you know, basically long-study show, we do so many more things than just, you know, getting on camera and shoot. There's so many things they work, especially on a person to me. It's insane. Yeah. Now, what was the show called again? I had it written down. We're supposed to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to say... Just kidding. Because that's the one, you've got quite a few looks in that show, right?

Yeah. And that's awesome. I mean, how amazing. How we don't know for Chilli. Yeah. As a cinema, DeVerve, to be able to shoot, you know, the 70s, the 80s, the 2000s. Those were the main, you know, three videos that we cover on this. show and having American as a background, you know, making history, American culture, being able to show how things have changed for women from the 70s, you know, this amazing relationship with these two girls from within the 70s and being able to follow that relationship with their up and downs and, you know, through 30 years. You know, as a cinematographer is a dream. You know, in those different looks. It's something that always wanted to do, have a different

look for every period. But not necessarily, you know, And I'm always saying this, not necessarily from a very period accurate perspective. I wanted to have a very emotional perspective to those folks. But the 70s on this show looked very, very warm, very yellow. There's lots of oranges. It's very milky blacks. There's always a very warm and hot light going through the windows. You know, it's, and again, it's back to the connecting with that a story, you know.

I remember going up in Spain, and I was going out with my best friend, that everything was right, we're dreaming, we're hoping, you know, adventure, life is going to be amazing. So that's kind of like what I wanted to express with that kind of look, and having a stockings behind the nurses, which automatically just brings you back to a period era, you know, that won't with it. You know, and then, you know, contrasting with things like the 1980s where these two girls are now, you know, in the early 20s, they, you know, they start having their friends. There's relationships, they're starting to work. You know, I can experiment with things like,

you know, you're gonna use the Stelicam a lot now. We're gonna be framing these two characters a lot in frame. We're gonna be moving with there. You know, they're exploring their first jobs. There has to be some dynamics, some movement. They want to be paddles. The Edis have such a distinctive look as well.

You know, the contrast, blacks, the headdose, you know, that's all there. You know, there's soft filtration as well. the soft alignment that I put there too. And in the 2000s, you know, these skills are in the 40s now. And they are now life maybe didn't pan out the way they thought, you know. And I worked to have a more neutral padded to it. It's almost no filtration there.

The composition is more edgy, more short-sighted. You know, it's just an amazing opportunity to be able to explore that, you know. And again, and maybe back to what I was saying earlier, 10 months of filming that. that price great you know yeah it's so creative you know and today i'm filming the 70s and to what i'm doing the 80s you know and and it's there's always something different you know and being able to explore those timelines it's just wonderful did you uh did you have like a sort of look book built for those looks or or was it more just like you kind of wrote it out and you're like these are the these are the tools and that'll

make the look look look work yeah definitely like they want to sooner they say okay this is what we're going to do. No, of course not. I like to do a lot of research. I like to do a lot of research for my own sake, but also, you know, communication is everything, you know, fix things in pre-production. I always do a lookbook and research things, no, movies that I talk to, to the surroundings and, you know, and the producers as I put out. And I look at photography more than anything. People are so lighter. Is somebody that is my God. I'm always speaking of soul lighter

Stephen Shore you know and the church is Tokhido Fan Ho you know photography is more important to me

as a visual reference and language so when I when I did this notebook of course you know not many people know these guys

you know I talked about movies like Berlin suicide I talked about movies like 9 to 5 for the 80s

and in Brockov is for the 2000 let me birth for the 2000 even such like extended things or hey, this look as well.

So I put those images together, you know, with some wording as well, photographs too. And I normally like to print those out rather than just getting a PDF out. And that is, you know, quality. And that, you know, and the air director will get that. My crew will get that as well. The surrounding, of course, has that too, or the writers. We don't know what we are trying to achieve here.

You know, and luckily they would agree with. They would sign on it. And they would just try to go for it. but I think it's important to, dude, you know, that research, that fixing preproduction that I was talking earlier for your own sake, but also for it right now. So we all know what we're doing.

On this side, there's so many contractions. You know, I don't love filters. You know, because, you know, you get on this amazing, expensive glass, and then you bring this plastic in the way. It's not cool. But, you know, my first two weeks on the show, my assistants were constantly coming back to me.

Okay, which filter is this? Is this a black saturday? It's the classic shop? Is it the stockings? It's just the 81. Yeah. So, you know, so I have that little look book also for them as well. And for my GAFA, too, you know, the Aides have a code.

And the professors have a code. A code is just a bunch of numbers with different looks based on the motions that, you know, we're turning with the different scenes. Like a menu. Yeah, exactly, like a menu, you know, kind of. So at least they know what we're doing, right? I don't have to constantly translate. But we're trying to cheer.

Yeah, you know. Tim Ives actually put me on to I had heard plenty of DPs talk about you know photographic references like photographers and I was like yeah yeah cool because I'm a big fan of Dan Winters but I'm also a person who kind of finds like one person that I like or one artist or whatever and I just kind of like that's the one and then I you know I'm a little too ADHD

ADHD for my own good but but Tim Ives put me on to like Steven Shore and lighter and, and, uh, Dikorkia. And, uh, the issue with all of those artists is, those books are like a million dollars. Right. Right. You try to get a hold of those. I got a handful over here.

But you kind of want to buy the book though. Yeah. I mean, I go harvest of books off for Jonathan. That's expensive. But you want to buy that book though because it's not the same looking at a PDF for a computer, right? It's not the same. No. It's not going to keep it the same.

So I think it's money well invested. You know, and I have a bunch of books on console life, which I think, and I don't want to call anyone my favorite, but here's my God. And even though I have browsed that book, maybe a hundred times, I still, you know, I'm looking, you know, my next project. And I just, I'm just browsing and speeches and not thinking of anything, just browsing and browsing and maybe something would trigger something. But, you know, I just think about geography. And also music and literature, it's not just movies and TV shows that we're really. I think we have to be, you know, widely in how we approach our references and our art. Yeah, I love literature.

I love the B generation. I love Bukovsky. You know, constantly reading those guys. You know, I love music too. I'm constantly listening to music and painting, you know, I mean, the darts, you know, Vermeer, Carvach, all these guys, Monet. I mean, it's incredible. So my new Bush Globe is going to have those films and TVs that everybody knows about

and everybody knows what I'm talking about. But they will also have those photographs and those paintings that maybe they have no idea what they are. But they have something there that will tell something about the look that I'm going for. And maybe, you know, they will understand maybe they won't, but hopefully they will. And it's kind of there. I think it makes total sense. I recommend people kind of avoid using films or television as a direct reference. because you might run into just straight up copying it.

Whereas when you take from, I certainly take not obviously visual ideas, but like structural ideas from music all the time, especially, you know, kind of like more interest. I always use Queens of the Stone Age as an example where like no chorus is the same. The way Josh Hami describes all his songs are like, it's like get it's not like a merry-go-round, it's like a bus. You know, there's like stops, and each stop on the bus is similar, but they're not the same stop, you know.

Stuff like that that I'll take from music and obviously, like, photography books are not going to teach you great cinema. Oh, I hate the word cinematographic. I don't think that's a word. But they're not going to teach you great cinema composition, but they do give you something. They do give you some visual language that is kind of intangible that I find. helpful. And also reference for production design, obviously. Right. Absolutely. Sometimes we take credit where products and design is we take credit for. It's an amazing

person designer. And they're making our, they're making our Carl Joseph's easier. Yeah. But sometimes it's, you know, and back to photography, sometimes it's not even something that relates to what you're doing. It's just what you feel. I look at the picture. You know, the way you feel that sometimes like, you know, you can translate up in it. But that emotion is when you look at this picture. And there's just this, that's all you need sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's, that's something that's really, because I, do you, I assume, I shouldn't assume, do you like take a camera around and shoot

stuff? Oh, gosh. When I'm not filming, totally. And on film, you know, I've got so many film cameras with me. Yeah, when I'm not filming, I'm constantly doing, doing that street photography and experimenting. You know, I put a bunch of ectachrome and chatechrome, you know, roles now that I can't wait. Today, I just start filming with when I have time and I go back home. Totally, 100%. I got to text you a photo you'll like at once we're done. Nice. I push.

Yeah, anyway. Yeah, because I find that like the, I'll be taking photos of stuff and you'll go through your contact sheet or whatever. You know, you'll be looking through the film you shot. and you're like, snapshot, snapshot, snapshot, holy shit, snapshot, snapshot, snapshot. Like, there's always something about an image that when it's good, you know, like when people ask like,

how do I take better photos? It's like, just keep taking them. And then you'll see one and you'll go, oh, that's what's different. Like, it jumps at you. Right. They got to ask them. Why not they would be good?

No, but, you know, it's one of the things also with digital and analog. And I'm saying that I love to shoot on film photography because you take your time to get that nice picture. You're trying to get that really nice frame it. That would a nice moment. They're really nice lighting. And then you wait for that. And then you take the picture.

Which when I take my digital camera, you know, that's in one picture, maybe it becomes 20. With my, with my nickel detail camera because it's, you know, you know, you can do so much later as well. And, you know, when taking pictures for my kid, I will never take, I'll never shoot anything on film with her. right but not always but uh yeah you know the format you know they're not old format

has something so unique that you know we we are we're lucky to say that it's not dead it's not a pencil to write or push it's right I embrace it so much if I could be shooting on fear and I don't know that I should say this because I used to fight so much when I moved to love America let's try to them so yeah so much and I'm going in trouble right it's expensive you know I remember um before For I left England, I did shoot a movie there. And I remember when the police were so keen on shooting with the right camera, this, this thriller. And they were telling me, you know, straw dogs, straw dogs.

We want to make it like straw dogs. It's amazing. You know, we want that texture, this cluster phone, you know, it's also in the country side in England. And I'm like, okay, but yeah, sure, they're red, but why not showing this on film, you know? But why not giving you the texture? No, it's expensive. So we did. And that's what I did, you know.

Oh, hell yeah. Right. I talked to call that. I talked to the labs. They came in a mission video. I started on Super 16. It was great. You had that great, that texture that they really wanted to do when I read camera.

And I ran an article on the American Cinema, Jones from Magazine, actually, this is 10 years ago. This is the first time I wrote for the magazine. And Stephen Puccello wanted me to talk about it, like, how it convinced these producers to not code the red route, to save the money and to give them the look that they want. So I did. And I'm very proud of that.

I think I saved them now at 30% of the money. Like in these amazing deals, you know, with Kodak and the last. You know, of course, when you see them on film, I don't have to do the lie on Hasty monitors, cables here and there, right? You can just go shoot. Everybody's so ready for the tape because we are burning. It's so expensive. Then you kind of have to be ready for it.

So you move much faster. I was proud of that. I was really proud of that. to convince those guys to do it the right way. Doesn't happen anymore, though. No, and I remember in, I took a few, before I went to college, I did a few separate film schools, and one of them was just a straight up producing,

it was like a one-week producing school in San Francisco. And the guy was hammering home, A, if you ever, this no longer applies, but he was like, if you ever want to fund your film, just go into your yellow pages and look for a dentist. and be like, hey, do you want to be in the movie business? And they'd be like, give you a bunch of money. But then he was also saying that, yeah, film back in the, at least at the time,

Kodak was willing to give almost anyone a deal on buying, like, usually a big, especially if you were a student, they were like handing you film. Absolutely. And now they can't even keep it on the shelves because they don't. I guess they spun down production so hard during the pandemic. and especially because demand was low, that during the pandemic, all these film photographers,

all these, you know, the 90s are back, the early 2000s are back. And so everyone's idea of those eras is some amalgam of like the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. So everyone wants to shoot film again. It's becoming more vogue.

And Kodak had spun down so aggressively that they can't meet demand anymore. At least that's what I think, I believe that's what happened. There's a bug on your lens. Yeah, I heard the shit. I know. But yeah, it does kind of suck

Because back when I was in college When I could have taken advantage of that You know, I didn't because I didn't have any money But the idea was there And this was right around the time the red one came out too So we were like, ooh, that would be cool But we all do want to shoot film And I don't think

I mean, I'm sure that sentiment is still out there But much less now. People are a lot more interested in, you know, Alexa 35, whatever Right, which is, I mean, it's amazing. I mean, the next is an amazing sensor, right? We come and we are so lucky to live in times like that, like now where we can actually have this incredible sensor, so close to film.

But I think at the time, most of it was quite worried about that competition, and they were willing to give so many things, maybe not for free by running cheap, to be able to compete with them. And I think now, the last time that I saw it was quite a few years ago now, but I think there has to be a very strong,

strong artistic decision to go to film, you know, to be able to convince a producer to go that route. I remember two films ago, another period of film that I shot and the producers and the directors were all film people. You know, they never really saw them in detail. So I was pretty excited about that. And it's a feature that we showed in Hawaii and in Vancouver as well, kind of that. And two timelines with two different periods as well.

from the phyllis to the early 2000s. And I was just thinking, oh, this is a great opportunity. We all have this great producers and directors who love him so much for me to be able to convince them to show this all the film, because it's asked and so. But of course, the laws were closing. Seattle Lab was closed. The Lab in Vancouver was closed,

which didn't have quite a distance from LA. They didn't want to take that risk of waiting, you know, for a day, for the daylies, and shipping the denative. It's like, what a shame, though. What a shame. But, because, you know, something like that would it take that we can't really choose the answer that we want

to write that book is quite, quite shameful. But I just understand that. I also understand that. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's not that it's, you know, I still want to believe, and I still, you know, I think you feel the same way, too, with that it's, it's another, it's another pencil that is part of a box to be able to write

the book. It's not gone. Another one is to be gone either. It's just, you know, another way of writing that book. Yeah. Well, but it's, I certainly understand that, because back in the, back in the day, yeah, I mean, back in the day, the reason that everyone, I think that younger filmmakers have kind of latched on to ideas that, I'll put we in quotes, including myself, but that we've put out there such as like, ooh, I want to shoot film, this idea that film is better than digital when today it's not necessary. It's not better, you know, like better is subjective, but it's different. It's different, but when I was in college, when you were in college, like, there was no,

either there was no digital or the digital that there was was objectively worse. So whenever we said like, oh, I want to shoot, I would rather shoot films because it was actually better. And now that's not, you know, what is this can't? My little X100 here shoots great video. You know, you could make a movie on that thing if you really wanted. Absolutely. Except you only have one lens. Yeah, absolutely.

You're nearly. I mean, right now we are so close to the family note that it. that it's it's it's one or the other it's you know but you know you mentioned the red one before that was a horrible sensor i mean that that was so bad yeah you know the blast was so red you know so great you know so great and so noisy like trying to you know and that was also my skills too because when on that film that was talking earlier i did a little test you know okay you know i went to the countryside in england this beautiful uh barn there and then i showed a couple of guys I said, I'm fin.

And I said, a couple of guys, the same guys, on the way. And that was pretty obvious. You know, I didn't have to say more. That's it. I'm convinced. But right now it's typical, though. And I love the Lexus. It's my favorite sensor.

I haven't saw with the 35 yet, and I'm really looking forward to that. The left. The middle of, it's just beautiful. It has beautiful sensors. I became more picky with lenses now than I used to be, you know. And I tend to think of, you know, and I tend to think of, you know, and I tend to think of cameras as streamstocks and the sensor is this sensor. I know how

to create and manipulate the sensor but I know that with these lenses I can do this and with these other lenses I can do that. I've became more more tricky that way. This is just me, everybody's different. No, that's almost every DP I've spoken to because most DPs these days are either shooting Venice or Alexa.

And so the lenses have become the film stock you know my my little secret is Nikor of Primes I'll import those on all kinds of things I know them too

they look great because they're just they're just interesting enough oh well I was going to say they're just interesting enough to be interesting but they're not like FDs where they're like super you know K35s where they're just like really super looky

you know like the Nikors are kind of some nice little bit in the middle yeah how much kind of three I have a bunch of those, too. You know, it's also what you like. I'm an icon guy in photography because I started a way after those cameras and had those lenses, and I just didn't feel they need to change anything else.

You know, cameras are great and all the other ones too, but it's kind of what you used to. Yeah, I love to make of that. I love it too. I started on a Nikon F2 way back in the day. Actually, weirdly enough, my first camera was. a was a Mamiah RZ 67. That was my first film camera. Wow. Wow. I found it on eBay in like 2000. Yeah. I found it on eBay in like 2003 for like 600 bucks with a lens. Wow. So I just jumped on it because I was like, you know, I'm taking stupid pictures of my friends. Actually, I took some interesting photos when I was a teenager. I'll admit. Some of them I still saved that like look good. But oh, something I was going to say about the film. versus digital thing. One of the best examples of when to use one format over the other actually

was in, in my opinion, was in The Last Jedi. Because apparently Steve Yedlin for all the older actors, you know, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, whoever, who were not used to shooting, well, of course they were used to shooting on digital, but like that wasn't their thing. He shot film. And then all the younger actors, he shot digital. And that was pretty much. much the only reason between the two was just the actor's, um, cadence, you know, working cadence. And I was like, that's the best distillation of, of why you might pick one over the other. Well, that's beautiful to be able to do that, right? Like, I remember back a few years ago, was it a ton, who were trying to get this camera. You could strike them out in the back. It's a two K camera.

and you can just get this digital margin out and put a film camera so you can just with the same camera shoot you know film and digital i think that's that's amazing you know movies like what was that movie um babble which you know what you know if you can on a same project shoot super eight super 16 35 change the aspirations use all the vocabulary that we have you know to tell you or your story i think that's wonderful that is amazing there was another there was not a movie back and

right that's right and there was another movie though that I remember the night staff was shot in digital and the dead staff was shot on film

and I think that was a big of preacher who did that a few years ago and a worst or the night staff was shot in the

on a Sony camera I think it was I think you're I think you're I started that was on film that's a yeah that's another

great great example of of when to use one or the other and how to combine it. I know what film you're talking about, but I don't know it by name. I think it's a science film or was it a Western? I think it was a Western.

Do we want to go to the powers of I and be brilliant? Yeah. See what you're going to do that. You can cut this out. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember, yeah, because at the time they were saying like, oh, there was just we couldn't resolve stuff at night, so we just shot digital.

And I just love the matter of factness of it too. Like, oh, yeah, you know, it was a creative choice, but it was a practical choice. And I think that's a better way to look at it these days, you know, if you have to make that choice. The Homestman. The Homestman. That's 2014. I think this is the wonder. Oh, that was not what I was thinking then. Oh, and they're wrong. Unless I just read it in American cinematographer and went, because like half the films in American cinematographer, I haven't seen. No, but by the thing, you know, I look at the details and they are recommending tea and then also the F.

55. And I remember the 55 being used for the night staff and then fin for day. And I wonder whether we're becoming a little, not lazy, that's not the word, but why did it do back in the phoenix? They couldn't say, well, you know, it's, you know, sitting on Finn with like 10 ASA stock is going to be really hard. They're on digital. They couldn't say that. They still did it, right? You know, I want to bring those challenges and trying to, well, you know, they have And we had digital cameras now that you can get exposed to 2,500

which can be ridiculous. You know, it's not about exposure. It's about texture. Yeah. I've been, I'm doing a show run out with the vannies. And I love the vanis, a lot of the cameras. Amazing camera.

I know that I can grade it to 2,500. And even though Sony and Sony, I love you, please don't, don't hate me for what I'm saying, but it is cranny. But I put this stuff to 2500. It's crannier, you know. I mean, it's not too bad. and I can see it.

I do a little slow motion on this show, and it's basically for me to just switch the parts and just go, you know, 23,500 so I don't have to change anything. I'm sure 120 per second, which is going to be the same as between 24 with a 500 or the 100 A.S. But I'd rather just put myself, keep the 500 or 800 or 800 or so, bring more light to it, and shoot for a cleaner image.

You know, I don't want us to start becoming lazy that way, you know, a cinema director first and just trying to, you know, Because these cameras out there, you can need to 6,400 and so, you know, because that just becomes mushy, but there's not texture. There isn't just an image. Yeah, you get exposure that you need, but you need to model that, like, you need to get some texture. Yeah, I mean, I'll, so that people don't get mad at you.

I don't think it's, I don't think it's laziness. I think, no, no, I'm just saying, I don't think it's laziness. I think it's just, we don't, no one, we're not given enough time, you know. So, so it's like, you. You're not given the opportunity to make a better decision. So you're like, fuck it, throw it at 30. There's plenty of lazy people out there. Or misinformed, especially I've noticed a lot on the indie scale or the student level.

There's a lot of people who go, oh, I can just shoot at 12,800 ISO. And you're like, yeah, you can. Sure. You know, but the one thing that I started doing actually, and I still do this, is I'll shoot at like 400. or because like I I tend to shoot the cameras I own the cinema cameras I own are all canon you know I have a C500 mark two and all this and they actually perform better at lower ISOs like you know at 800 it's amazing but at 400 even 640 but at 400 it's clear like everyone was complaining about the noise floor at 800 put it at 400 same uh dynamic range

as far as I'm concerned but absolutely clean blacks, just with one stop loss. And so I just do that, but it also forces me to light better. Right. And we're just a good fan, though. That's a good fan. Yeah. No, I use it. I use it. I intentionally kind of kneecap myself because it ends up looking better in multiple ways, both technically and artistically. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I came. With your, you know, when you're studying, you're just studying, and you don't have a lot of tools out there. They are, the disciplinary of going out and shooting with those censors, you know, 200 is, you know, sorry, 6,000-1-100 days, you know, it's great. You can experiment and you'll know then that you

would rather use lighting as opposed to do that. But at least I think you can, you know, I think you can just experiment and just, you know, just tell the story that you want. Maybe not the way that it should be said, but I, why not, you know. I will say, you know, if I am I to say, you know, everything hurts to have a life. I love student with no life. You feel like this? I can get away with it. And it's clear.

You listen more natural to me. I did actually, well, two things. One, for the students watching, I will say, hold on. But we're off this. And sorry, sorry to the listeners because you won't get. But I found that you can get these chandeliers on Amazon and put a bunch of, like, good LEDs on it or you can even do tungsten if you can find

it. That's so much of them. But you can make this for like 40 bucks and this works great as a film light. Yeah. And so for those listening it's like a tiny little starfish with a bunch of LED bulbs in it. And you've got to get good LEDs. You know, you can't just use anything. Exactly. But if you can use tungsten

even better. But this will work great as a film light if you're a student. You know, and I've been telling people for a couple years now, I made a YouTube video about it in an article on Pro Video Coalition about how, like, do this, you know, get a shower curtain and one of these and a light stand, and you're good to go, you know, don't think too hard if you don't have money. And, you know, in those bogs together will give you enough, you know, the guy will be soft, the light will be soft now, you know, with all those balls together.

And you could put some pieces in front that can make beautiful images with that. Sure. Yeah, I stole it from Roger Deacons, his big ass, like, six-point, you know. I was just going to say a cheaper, it would be considered. Yeah. But I did want to ask you, because I had seen in an interview you did, talking about how documentary you got started using natural light and stuff. And I was wondering if you could kind of expand on that,

like how maybe even in your professional work you're able to lean into just using available light and shaping that. I love that. You know, first of all, everything looks somewhat so much more natural to me. You know, one of the things that I hate that is a cinematographer is Facebook took birth a date back. You know, I don't connect with that. I don't feel that real.

You know, people don't walk at home with a backlight, you know? It just doesn't feel real to me. But I did. You know, when I moved to, when I moved to him, I did a bunch of documentaries where I was always aiming to. If I was inside, I was always trying to put everything closer to the window, you use the window light, the natural sun and try to control that. I love negative field, but it's a negative field on the other side.

and they just tried to shape the light that way. It mainly based on not having a lot of money of those documentaries and being, me, I was also operating my own camera and took eyes with me. You know, just pretty much learning, you know, to use the light that is already there just to make good use of it.

And to me, that was the best school that I could ever have, you know, and not even to the day, I'm trying to always approach for that. You know, and if I, you know, or trying to emulate a sort of look, you know, with lighting too. But I remember one of my first techniques ever in North America, and I want to mention the show, not there.

Yeah, I just won't. There was a scene where I had two characters in this table, and the camera was moving in the two shows, and later on it was going to get covered and threw over the shoulders. And they were against this window, and it was not, it was pointing north. So the sound was always behind it was never going to give us. to me, any house light. And, you know, and I'm talking to the keep in the same, listen, the light's beautiful right now.

I think it was around in the afternoon somewhere. It wasn't a long scene in particular, but that I was just beautiful. And I know that the sun, even though the sun was going to move, you know, the ambys that we're getting from the wind, it was so beautiful. I just let it be that way. The kid was going crazy. He took to control this life, you know. Let's bring some light crazy. Let's bring some light.

I love it. It's natural. It looks great. And it was so soft as well, because it was bouncing back. And I started that way. I didn't put a light at all on those actors. And it was true. And it was great.

And I don't know whether that was that, you know, being our approach or not. I think it's more that background that I have as, you know, starting doing documentaries that really told me to use the light that way. But having said that, knowing that, that I can change, though. You know, it can become cloudy. It can become, you know, it can probably change. And then you have to stop the scene and bring lights to, you know, to make it look the same way throughout the whole scene.

You know, so working on documentaries earlier on taught me that learning how to read the light, that's how they are. And knowing that I can use it for as long as I want to do a scene, and if it is there, we're not, you know, you can most ask that it as learning, it looks great. Yeah. You know, the disorder on the bill right now after, after five times is a total opposite show where it's a Gisi comic show, it's, you know, I have, you know, I can, I can, I can be as bored as I can.

It's a graphic mobile, pretty much. But I'm still trying to get the naturalistic approach to it and enhance it a little bit. You know, but still, you know, if I have a scene where I know that I can get away, they look great, get away is not that I wear it there. You know, they look great,

and I can use minimal lighting, you know, to achieve what I need to do. I'll go with it. Yeah. I'll always, I'll always, I'll always say yes to that. well and and and going back to shooting film photography around you know as you travel around or whatever like that'll teach you how to find great light real quick absolutely because you start once it costs money you're like maybe i'll just wait for something good so you keep an eye out for it you know did you did you over the 20 the detailed camera for sure yeah did you uh I know you said you hadn't really been watching much and especially not with like a 10 month schedule like that but did you did you happen to check out and or no you you you you yet not yet and i come with to workshop though i haven't i really want to bro let's talk about like

that's that's a that's the first star wars anything that looks natural oh really yeah like it yeah that's a that is a very well shot show like it's the way i thought about it my head and then someone made like a youtube documentary that they stole my my idea but like it's literally star was from the ground like everything is is just on the ground there's no i don't think there's any space shots at all there's no jedi nothing it's just it's about uh and or basically running from the cops and it's just like that i wanted that for so long it's just like can we just like what's the empire doing right now like like at like at a bureaucratic level you know um and so yeah but it is It's shot very naturalistically, and it's a, it's a truth.

Highly recommend it. Is it Adiano Gorman shooting that? He showed that? You know, I don't know who shot it. Let's go back to the internet. Let's find it. Because that's not what you're expecting right from that show. Nope, you're right.

So the fact that they're actually doing that. Oh, there's three people. Jonathan Freeman, Lamb, Day, and Garland. Garcia and Adriano Goldman. But the look is consistent. I could, I would have assumed it was just one person, but that was actually something that when I was talking to, I'm blanking on his name, why am I blanking on his name?

He's another CSC member, Middleton, Greg Middleton. Yeah, because I was asking him about like how, because he shot Moon Knight, and I was like, how is Marvel, by extension, Disney, you know, Lucasfilm, whatever, how are they keeping those looks consistent? And he was like, well, they do kind of have a lookbook, but they also let you go into their library of Luts.

And you can pick Lutz from different, like, he was like, I can't remember which movie, but he basically said that they pulled the Moon Knight Lut from like, whatever, I'm making this up, but like Black Panther or something. And then just tweaked it a little. And I was like, of course they do. Why wouldn't that?

Like, why did I think? There was some, you know, like, like, dictated, like, like, you know, a show Bible for every film. And they're like, oh, just, you know, here's the lots we've used since Ironman. What do you want, you know? Like, such a smart. I mean, you have the time to experiment with those lots? Why not? I'm at the people that, like, I like to just have the one lot.

You know, I sit for the show and then lie for it, right? Yeah. But, I mean, why not? You know, obviously on a show, like, the one that I just did with so many different looks, there's always some CTL adjustments on the day with the VIT that goes to the deadest color is for sure but I always like to start with the one always with the same knot

and just trying to you know try to put gels or dial up at different temperature on the LED lighting and put features on the camera and so forth I think it's always nice to try to get it looking camera and then just you know stick it from there yeah I mean uh again going the season two finale I talked to Eric Measersmith And, yeah, I was actually, I got the joy of speaking to measurement.

And right before that, I spoke to his editor, Billy Fox for devotion. And Billy was saying they both mirrored each other. But Billy was like, yeah, that footage came in and we didn't do anything to it. Like, you know, there's a little bit of matching. It's such a joy when that happens. It's such a joy when that happens. But you can just get a look, you know, in camera. I'm always pushing for that.

And this is why, like, you know, to have the one lad. I don't know how the piece that I talk to, they like to have a very, radio likes to play me in the same show. I just can't do that, though. You know, I just, I just think it has so much more to judge off. Of course, everybody is different. Everybody has a different process, but I just like, you know, they want James Stone, I'd call it, and then just fly for it.

Yeah, I, I actually, in hilarious enough, it's mostly my corporate work, but I, I'm always adjusting my, like, one, I have, actually have two. One of them is based on an Alexa match, and then the, of the, other one is kind of a weird I actually kind of stole it from the V-Raptor but I've been adjusting it but like yeah I have like basically one or two luts that I use for everything that every gig will highlight like something it's not good at like maybe a specific blue will go out of whack and so I'll dial it back re-save it you know and all that so I have a few resolve projects that are literally just a lot building

because yeah I think you know so I should interrupt but I think it's pretty as even if you just had the one that two last, the meters of judgment on the day, I think these days we can do that so fast that is someone like you're creating another lag within that first lap that you did. There was, back to the show that I just, that I just did,

we did some scenes where we were trying to pretend we were in Iraq on season one. This is not even season. This isn't the words different, I'm sorry differently, but season one. And when I did almost on the day, the DIT, okay, you know, I want to have, I want to have a, a this bypass.

to it. So, you know, it's a more monochromatic, more contrasty, you know, and let's try to play with the highlight as well. And within 50 minutes, we have it dialed in and we just shrug with it. And I didn't touch it in the color time. I did not touch that. That's the way, the way it was. I'm lying, though, we added some grain. We could add some grain, some cream grain to that footage, but I didn't touch the colors or anything hurts. Yeah, that kind of feel like that's the way to go. Because, like, if you have too many obvious, You'll just get stuck, you know, you'll start thinking too hard. You won't focus on the work, you know?

Right. Right. With the DC show, have you started prep on it or anything? I lost you there. I'm sorry. No, I know. It's perfect. That's hilarious.

I was like, with the DC show, have you prepped anything? And then the thing cut out. And I'm like, man, they're listening. They are listening. isn't it? Yes, I started a few months ago. So I'm actually prepping when not yet. When I go back, I'm going to prep episode 10 out of 13 the evening on the show. So I've shot a few episodes already. It's, you know, it's kind of cool because it's so different. And that's what I was going to ask. Yeah, you know, I love about a joke, you know,

sometimes people ask me, what is your style? Well, and so what I'm doing. You know, I don't really have a style. You know, there's some things that we always like to do because that's how we like to work. But going from a period show, a period show that Fire Train Lane, to a, you know, a Disney comic show which is way darker, you know, and totally different in terms of look. It's just great, you know. Sometimes we get pigeonhole with some work and, you know, if you're having the old comedy, you can't do it. Well, that's right. You know, we don't have to produce something, you know and for directors as well you know for directors too um i did also a musical um so it's explanary bellies i finished that show um and and one of the um one of the producers directors

of westwood joined me on that show too and you know and it was such a such a different journey as well for him and for me too we just you know and they are just just just telling each other listen this is a story turning it's a different way of telling a story just different story to him but always been having studied. So we always got to use our tools and our experience and our activity to make it work, whether it's a musical, whether it's a comedy, whether it's a horror film. I think it doesn't really matter. I've been very lucky in my career and I've actually push it that way where I've tackled almost every gender that there is out there. Yeah. The superhero gender, I didn't do much before. I saw some commercials with it. It's obviously

not the same. And I really wanted to do that. So, you know, being able to explore this, this genre is great. And knowing that there is a language to this kind of shows and, you know, and embracing it and trying to be as cinematic as you can. And I think it's great, you know, being able to do, you know, so we know repetitive. We don't always do the same fan. Yeah. The, I'm, I'm interested because there's, you know, people kind of maybe flippantly say that superhero films are the Western of today, you know, where, oh God. you move me to this space which I hate

I know but I know but I'm probably just really talking and raccoon eyes yeah dude you should see this stupid setup

I've got well it looks anyway you know you don't you know oh there's if I turn the camera

around you'd be like are you serious when I first started this podcast I had or like not right off the bat but like when I realized

like oh I should probably make this look kind of nice I had like full on film lights and stuff set up And I've now, this is such like a, like, not obvious, but of course, this is what happened. I had film lights set up.

I had like my C-500. I had everything dialed in. And now I'm literally lit by one light bulb and a show card. This is more. Yeah. It's always, and it looks basically the same, you know, like, and way less effort. But anyway, I wanted to ask going into a superhero show, obviously. with something like Firefly Lane, the realism of the show, I suppose for someone like

me, it feels tenable, whereas a superhero show feels like, oh, my God, how do I like this? You know, because it's so graphic, not like a murder, but like, you know, graphic, like a comic book. Were you kind of pushed in that direction, not against your will, but were you pushed in that direction for the show or were you able to kind of lean more into your naturalism? No, no, no, really. You know, I've also done something that I've never done before. I joined a show that had a status look already, many seasons.

But I, you know, I embraced that, but I wanted to change that a little bit. And I was going to, I was going to the show, me telling the producers and the surroundings, I wanted to do something a little different on the show. And that's one of the things that I wanted to do a little different. Let's light. Let's less of that or that expected superhero look, because I think if I do that, it brings it, it becomes more real. You know, the character becomes more real.

It's more like that. Of course, every now and then, there's those scenes that you cannot have to do what is expected, but for the most part, and, you know, my approach to Latin for nor the scenes, it's very naturalistic as well. I believe, and I repeat in myself, I believe that doing so brings the audience closer

to what we're saying. Yeah. And how are you kind of grappling with potential, potential VFX and stuff. Have you worked with that much in the past? Or is this kind of a new experience? No, no, no. You have done lots of VFS.

I mean, well, no, no, it's like enough years. Shows to understand the process, to understand, you know, their needs and everything. And on this show has been flawless. Of course, you know, this is online on a show that's been very popular. They've been doing this forever. The hire or dialed in.

It was very sick for me to like, you know, come to the show and understand the process. There's a VFX supervisor show, of course, I'm sad. And there's lots of meetings about the heavy-duty BFS staff that we're shooting to make sure that we get what they need and that I get what I need and that we'll get the results. And it's been a really great experience on this show

with the team, they're all in the link. And I have not had any problems at all. And understanding VFX sometimes can be a little tricky. You don't understand the process. But this is why you get people at the VFX super to tell you and to guide you through things sometimes the things that you can get away with and the things that we can not get away with. There's a lot of like erasing on this show, there's a lot of BFSA staff that, you know, it's not that tricky, but it's still technically mandated. You kind of

have to understand the process apparently. But so far it's good. So far it's been great. Awesome. Well, I've kept you far longer than I should have. So we'll wrap it up. But when when you finish that show, come back and we'll get into more detail about that. I would love to. I would love to. But I thought I was going to, whatever, inside baseball doesn't matter. I'm too, I'm so bad at this podcast about just like saying stuff that no one cares. No, no, not at the podcast, but like saying stuff that no one cares about.

What I was about to say was like, I was going to change the last two questions and now I have it. No one cares. Just get to the questions. But so last two questions are if Firefly Lane was in a double feature, which is kind of weird because it's a television show, but conceptually, if Firefly Lane was in a double feature that you're programming, what would be the other film or television show? So do we want to go like the total opposite way or something that's relate to it? Your call. Compare or contrast. Do you know what? I just force people to watch the conforms.

Oh, what a beautiful film. And I'm saying the conformal because I was just talking about it on one of those interviews that I was doing. I would just because so many people don't know about this thing, and this is what made me want to be adopted. I would just force him to do that. And I would just say, look, listen, I played with all those scholars on file for name,

maybe this Sam Estraro embedded on me. I just going to make you watch the conformist. And the conformist wasn't not a tip, you know, not a typical star with a colorful movie it was more about lights and saddles you know

it's I don't know it's too drastic a difference or maybe it's in suicides you know from Meg Nakma

you know which is it's going kind of similar semantics look to what I did all and

there's a show that actually looked at and a reference a lot for the 70s you know

now what the heck it's going to let them watch let them learn about light and saddle and and that was

the first scene, though, and I said this on an inch, you know, and I go, that was the first thing that I, I watched visually. Like, I understood, hang on a second. I'm learning that I can say so many things visually with those lies, the shadows. The look that he had on Perry is completely different to the rest of the movie. And that just triggered something in my head that made me watch movies differently from that moment. And this is a movie that's in 1970s. It's incredible. Yeah, I thought it was the 60s even. But, like, I, uh, days seems to send a show like 69 maybe but uh because i went you know during the pandemic went on a

blu-ray purchasing spree and uh was just taking advice from everyone and one of the films i got was the conformist and i hadn't seen it and i just watched it i want to say at the beginning of this year maybe like mid-year this year it was the first time i saw it and i i was quite blown aback by like again i think it was whatever 69 i you might know better to me but like just how modern the cinematography looks in that, which which just means that everyone's stealing from that, right? Right. But like it, for that movie to come out and then Star Wars, you know, like, it's like, and Star Wars does not look as good, you know, um, God, the conforms is such a beautiful

film. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's classic. It's, again, it's what really is the first thing that I ever appreciated the cinematography over the story. Yeah.

That just made me like, wow. I mean, yeah. Well, and for instance, like the, I don't know if it's the opening shot, but there's the shot like over a bunch of leaves going up to the car, you know, like that one was getting it. And again, I was just sitting there like, really? In the 60s? Like, we're doing big ass moves like this. Amazing. I remember that the movie, I am Cuba, and that's even earlier.

I don't know if I was I am Cuba. And the camera of word and the look of that film was so incredible at that time. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. If somebody can watch that movie, it's like I would. I always recommend that movie. You know, what can we make to have double bill? She's fine from lane.

They have the conformance. I mean, I am Cuba. Perfect. Amazing. Yeah, I'll have to pick that up on Blu-ray as well. But anyway, second question. Everyone always asks about, you know, what's the best piece of advice you got? I disagree.

What is the worst piece of advice you've ever gotten? So I think I want to repeat myself, can I? Because I really want to, you know, when I was very young, upcoming D.P. And this is still to remain unknown, very famous in the majority told me, be picky. Don't just shoot. He actually telling me, don't shoot shit.

That's what he'd tell me. Don't shoot. It's very picky because you want to get a next job. But that was the worst advice I could have. I wanted to, I should have, you know, make mistakes. I should have just gone and do a bunch of stuff that I could have done. And I said no to. Just because I was told not to do that.

And right now, it's all about going out there, out there. You do cameras. It's very easy these days to get those cameras, almost no lights, and experiment, learn, you know, make mistakes, and then from them, because that's always going to take it somewhere. We're always learning. It's never stopping us. You know, it's always there. Every show is different. Every show you learn is something else. Everybody, every take, every seat. And that's an advice that I was given that advice, I forward for a little bit. And then I realized that it was wrong. And then I changed, luckily. But that was the worst thing that I could have been told by playing a cinema to refer.

Yeah. Well, and to your point, like, you can have every, you know, American cinematographer manual and every magazine and every book that exists, but that academic knowledge only takes you 40% of the way. Right. And that thing earlier we were talking about, about, like, how 70% of your job is managing people and whatever. Like, they don't teach that in film school.

They don't teach that in cinematography school. It's so stupid. That's the thing, though. You can be a very talented cinematographer. You can be clearly talented, but you still have to do that part of the job, you know. Which we don't always like it, but it's part of it. It's part of what we do. Yeah.

Anyway, man, thank you so much for spending the time. That was a ton of fun. And like I said, when you're done with the next show, please come back and we'll talk about that. I would love to. And I make sure they're spending the connection. So I don't know anything. No worries. It was only 2%.

Now we're now turning into Bernie Sanders. 1%, 70%, 2%. Yeah, it was only a little bit. I'll let them know at the beginning. Wonderful. Yeah, thanks again, man. That was a lot of fun. Thank you.

It's been a pleasure. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-Armack's logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast. you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.