Frame & Reference Podcast - 85: "Shirampari" DP Diego Perez Romero

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Welcome to episode 85 of the Frame and Reference Podcast! This week, Kenny talks with cinematographer Diego Perez Romero about "Shirampari." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 85 with Shirampari D.P. Diego Perez-Ramaro. Enjoy. You've been watching anything good recently? Right now, Caledioscope on Netflix. Oh, yeah, I've heard that's good. Yeah, it's neat. Well, I watch it with my partner at night,

and, you know, last thing we watch on the day. Probably the only thing we watch together, you know. It's interesting. Fun, like, action. Yeah, it looks great also. also. So, yeah. But from like what I remember to have this like treasure of watching, it would be better cause whole for sure. Oh, for sure, yeah. Last thing I really remember, you know. And do you, uh, do you primarily watch like documentary stuff since that's like kind of your main thrust or, um, because I know some people like, you know, hate, uh, watching what they, you know, specialize in or whatever? Well, I do watch some documentaries every now and then. Well, the last one I saw was the, like two days ago, the backpacker with the hatchet and I watch a ton of Netflix.

Well, not a ton, but I watch Netflix and YouTube, and that's, like, that's it. The hatchet, what was it? The hatchet guy, the backpacker with the hatchet or something like that. yeah whatever um you mean the one that was like a hundred and twenty seven hours but it was the documentary about him yeah yeah and uh but i do like i do watch both things you know documentaries and also series and movies and but i'm not the huge fun of watching things also so so yeah i like i don't have this uh binge thing you know that every like lots of people go through like binge And stuff, I don't do that.

I fall asleep early. You just got to make the stuff. Yeah. So what got you into filmmaking then? Was it just an extension of kind of like activism then? Or were you always kind of like a creative person growing up? Well, I've been like, I always enjoyed drawing as a kid. And then I pursue the career in communications.

And the first job or gig I landed was at an environmental institution. Yeah. So it was about, you know, protecting the rainforests and stuff like that. And, but I started and, and then, like, for a couple of years, I was mostly related to as a communications person. Like writing stuff and, you know, a little bit of graphic design and things like that. But I got to leave for a year, saw in the Amazon and that's when I thought for the first time, like, oh my God, I should

have a camera with me because I was going over there and watching all these crazy things and, you know, beautiful things going on in front of me and I have nothing to, you know, to capture it. And so I bought the camera and started like with photography. And that went on for five or six years and then I started a business with Lucia who directed the chirampery and she left to go and do her master's and so i i had to like start making video because she was a the video person i did a photography and she was a video person and uh so that's how i started like making films that feels but you know little videos about these environmental things i was working on and recently this for this movie was the first time i i actually like

called the like a real cinema camera so that that was it was a slow transition between you know photography and video and now this so for your uh sort of film education going from photography to um you know video making i suppose cinematography uh what were you used were you kind of going like you said like the youtube route or were you going like books and and stuff like that Was it more of a traditional... No, maybe YouTube. I mean, yeah, YouTube for sure, man. Yeah. All right.

And so I don't want to say I'm a content creator because I'm not, but this is, though, probably I feed more into that category. And I learned a lot from YouTube for sure, you know, watching tutorials and stuff. But also, you know, people talking, but experts talking, you know, how you call it in English, but a charla in Spanish is when they didn't go and like Steve Bakari and all big ones talking about their craft and how they made it and things like that

Masterclass Like Masterclass Not not something you sign on You know like a TED Talk Right Yeah yeah oh sure yeah yeah Yeah Yeah that's the annoying thing

They Masterclass took the name Masterclass But that just used to be what any Like expert teaching stuff was called And now you have to Yeah Yeah Yeah So who

Who are you watching that? Like, do you remember anyone that was kind of helpful to you as you were making that transition? For, well, for photography, Joel McNally, which is the first guy I saw, like, when I got into, you know, working with Flash, you know, external light source. That was a big one. And then for this movie, I prepared mostly watching the Wandering EP. podcast, have you seen it? He has a... No, we don't advertise other podcasts

on this podcast. His cinematography breakdowns, that's how they are called, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I really wanted to be a cinematographer and I wasn't

one. You know, I... Sure, I was a photographer, for sure. And I could, you know, work as a videographer, you know, but being a DP is a complete different thing. And I wasn't going to, like, commit a mistake of thinking, I'm great as I am, and, you know, this will both, you know, I'm going to kill it. It was quite the opposite. So since I got this responsibility, I got pretty scared, you know, I started having nightmares

and stuff like that. And so this pushed me to start learning, you know? Yeah, you know, it's kind of fascinating because I've never really asked anyone with this kind of career trajectory but like how did you keep yourself from falling into the trap of could you just tell like what advice was bad and what advice was good or or being a little older than the average sort of quote unquote content creator were you able to kind of sniff that out or how are you kind of sorting the information you were getting well first I was like rejecting anything that said like five tips for cinematat whatever that you see on the cinematic, you know, not cinematography,

that cinematic look, you know, there's a bunch of YouTube videos that go that way. And those are the work, what's up guys, buy a black promist. Yeah, yeah, you know, the gimbal moves to be cinematic and stuff. That's a, just bullshit, sorry, but I don't know if I can say this. Oh, yeah, you can say the fuck word here. That's fine. Because I curse a lot, well, in Spanish, I curse a lot. But I was aware that this is bullshit, you know?

So I was going that way. And I knew that I was looking for cinematography, not for cinematics. So cinematography then was the keyword for YouTube. And then watching just or remembering movies or DPs that I liked, like Lugueski. You know, Chivo Lubeski, I had this vision. I asked myself, like, who do you remember? because I don't have this memory, you know. I'm not a big movie guy.

But one thing I couldn't erase from my memory is that I love the revenant. And I love Lubeski. You know, I'd search, you know, who did this thing? And it was Lubeski. And I started watching tons of videos about him and his style. And then just going on doing this

just other, you know, stuff related to cinematography and how to be a cinematographer. and I really dive into it. For months and months, I was stuck every night, many hours a day, like watching and watching and trying to learn everything I could, you know? You know, you've hit on something kind of interesting because I think for people who are just getting into cinematography, I think this is going to be a great teachable moment.

To you, what was the difference between being cinematic and cinematography. What was to me? Well, cinematic is an empty word. You know, it's related to form, but with no content. So sure you can, you know, do the moves and sure you can work with the equipment or whatever, you know, spent your whole money and to, it's a, it's a, it's a gimmick, you know. And I wasn't falling for that.

that for sure. So I was more interested in what motivated, you know, what was the purpose behind. And I think that's what cinematography is about. And finally, realizing that it's not about, like, how good is, does this, you make something look, you know? It's not about how look something looks. It's about, is it, do you really need it to look good? Or maybe you need it to look like shit, you know, and cinematography. Yeah, that's pretty much perfect. I mean, the way that I've always described it is like, you do, obviously, you do need to know, like, how to make something look good.

You know, there's plenty of people out there who, you know, their highlights are blown out and, like, framing's all shitty. But, yeah, it's very much more the storytelling of what, because, like, with your short, I found it the sort of speaking of visual language I found the so how much how much directing were you doing so to speak in in that short because it does feel like you just grabbed a camera and we're following them around and then and then chopped it together not in like a haphazard way but it does feel very unplanned however very structured like I guess It was really cool to watch.

It just keeps you going. You know, it's not, yeah. So how much directing were you doing there was someone always over your shoulder being like, ooh, now get that? Or were you kind of just doing your own thing? It's quite what you just feel, you know. So we had this before going into the field, we knew, or at least I worked on a set of rules. I was going to try to, you know, achieve or to maintain to have this cohesive look.

So it's not just a camera doing whatever all the time because then you have like pieces that look like a Frankenstein. You end up with a Frankenstein that doesn't have a one like a look, you know. So we wanted to make sure that we had that stuff going on. And so this was about doing camera. How are we going to move the camera? Are we going to put the tripod or not? You know, is it going to be handheld all the time? How is it going to, you know, the focal distance?

Are we going to work mostly on the wide, you know, the wide end of the lens? Are we going for the tel-look? So we, you know, made those decisions. And then we go into the field and do the work. and this whole thing just you kind of forget and then it happens what you said, you know, I had the

director like giving me some looks, you know, and signs and, you know, go in or go out and turn around and take, you know, have the reaction shot, you know, things like that, but we didn't want to have is the blender

like... No, sorry, no. No. So, we have that dynamic, but it was all, like, stripped down. We didn't want to interfere in whatever was going on. But at the same time, we had the clear idea what was about to go on, you know? So before every shot, we would talk with the director, okay, so this is what we want to highlight. Or, you know, this is the important part, so let's be aware of this. But whenever we go and set rolling, it would be just a...

like me trying to pursue whatever was going in front of me in the best way possible, you know? And that's like framing and stuff like that, yeah. So how did you, because I've certainly gotten lost filming live events, how did you kind of keep your head about you and not just get wrapped up in what was happening, but also kind of have that photographic mindset, so to speak. Were you thinking like, oh, I need B-roll for this or I need this angle or, you know, adhering to that shot list you were kind of loosely given? Or was it a lot more instinct? Well, there was this big outline of this, you know, this is, you know, this moment is about this or this is about that.

and the interaction with the director, she was more aware of what was going around because I was focused on, you know, whatever I was, I had in front. And at the same time, I have this sense of, you know, what it looks good. I just said I don't want anything to look good because it looks good, but, you know, you always want your image to be at least okay, you know? So, and at least comes from my photograph for background. So it's almost an instinct to me. I'm not, I don't have to pay too much attention to have a good frame, you know.

Sounds horrible right now, but that's a, I think that's part of it, you know, that why it works. It looks like it's shot on the, on the loop, you know, like, that's shoot it, but it's not so much that, you know. Yeah, I mean, the, the, the, yeah, like I said, it's like a very polished short, but at the same time it does feel very raw in a good way. Also, I want to add that we need have some, you know, sense of location, always knew what side of the sun, you know, we were going to shoot most of the time against the sun, you know, not having the sun in the back, you know. Avoiding these kind of things helps you a lot, you know, when you are on that dynamic

because it's like some rules always give you, you know, help you to have some structure and not get lost in the motion in the moment. Yeah. Well, and one thing we've said on this podcast, almost every episode is how, you know, production design is 80% of your image. And, you know, that jungle is really fucking pretty. You can point the camera anywhere in there and it's going to look really good. So, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of great ink.

there that just jump out at you. How were you given access to that area? Like, how did you guys even come to find that group of people? Okay, so this started in 1216. I was, I am a friend of a mayor. He's not the mayor anymore, but those years he was a mayor of those, of that small city, which is five hours away away from Dulce Gloria, this community where we shot.

And so he called me one. one day and said, so I have been a photographer for a while and conservation photography and indigenous peoples in Peru are tied to conservation because they held so much territory and protected. So you cannot talk about conservation without the indigenous people. So for years I have been related to this world. Like this is my main geek for it, like really, not making movies. So I have tons of friends that live there and have some things going on over there. So he called me one day and said,

I have to make pictures to go to Lima, which is Lima, the big city in Peru. And because every time I go there, no one understands what the fuck I'm talking about. You know, because he shows up with the authorities and go, okay, where I go, these are the Ashaninkas, Ashaningas, and whatever, and they suffer from this and that.

And he had no pictures to show them. And like in the city, no one knows what what is this you know so he asked me to go and i said okay sure i go i enough to to go to a new place and then you know especially in those conditions and we went there and like it it was a 10-day trip and at the last day i saw this guy put like pulling out of his canoe this huge fish and i go okay so friend how did you manage to catch this one you know because the river was too low to throw like a net. And with one of these things, you cannot catch one huge fish.

A rod, yeah. There was something else going on. And he goes and told me, no, I dive with this hook. She shows me the hook. And I just, my mind exploded, you know. And for the next six years, every year, you know, this time of the year, where the river is low. and the water is sort of translucent,

they do this fishing, not all day, not all year long, you know, it's a stationary thing. So every year I would go like this, like right now they are doing this thing that I really wanted to go on photograph and I always thought this was like a Caribbean sea thing, you know, where you can see you have a good visibility

and I was dreaming about having this picture of this indigenous guy, with his space penins, you know, diving like tarso or whatever, you know, with the hook and about he catch this huge fish. And that never happened because it's so expensive to bother it. So there was this opportunity where we saw the funding from Nagio and Lucilla, the director also came in right in the right moment. And, you know, we talked together and we decided that we would go with a short documentary about this practice. And then it was just about finding Arlindo and his own.

But we already knew like this thing was going on that place, you know, how to get there. And also I have the connections with the Rangers that work over there and, you know, the institutional part because I'm like I'm part of this world, you know, a conservation world. It's about that. yeah and when you say huge fish because you know a lot of the listeners won't have seen the short um there's a kid fishing in the in the river with this stick and he pulls out a catfish that's the size of him let just just that image of him like yanking that thing on shore i was like that is not a small catfish no it's huge how much how long does that

Does that feed everyone, like everyone in the area for a while? Or does that feed a small group of people for a long time? Well, the way they do it is that this, like this fishing doesn't go. It's not just one guy who goes fishing. So it's like five or six or seven. So five or six or seven. So each one has its own family. And if they catch one fish, they go there, chopped it into pieces.

and, you know, everyone gets it per share. Just put it that way, you know. Also, there are some limitations for the conservation of the fish once you, you know, take it out of the water because they don't have the electrical light going on all the time and you cannot, like, throw it into the freezer for months or weeks. So you either eat it right away, you know, or you smoke it

and it will last a little longer but not as long as we're used to you know so it definitely gets eaten within till the two or three days since it's caught yeah

everyone's got their own version of jerky it's a what it's a community thing you know they share you know it's not just a oh I catch it with mine you know and then you go find yours right

the uh so you've got you've got a bunch of footage that's um you know obviously outside of water but a bunch of underwater footage talk to me about kind of how you had um what camera you're shooting on c70 can on c70 yes and also it is r6 so how did you have those rigged up were they like two separate rigs one was for underwater were you like switching out to housings when you wanted different shots or like how are you powering you powering it because I know the battery on that can go pretty quick sometimes. Yeah, well, the battery on the C70 is amazing. Yeah.

And you can go for four-day shooting, no problem. The RR6, not so much, but it's also good. Well, so about the rig for the underwater thing, it was just, you know, the strip-down camera, camera and lens, that was it. And we didn't have, well, budget was a big thing for us. You know, it was big because it was so small. So being so expensive to go over there and, you know, the main expense was just getting the crew over there and moving around, you know.

So we didn't have money to buy like a proper aquatic housing. We managed to do all this with a... Have you seen the out-ex? It's like a condom for the camera. It's just not a bag, but it's a silicone thing. which lets you work but it's not an idea you know you don't really have access to

buttons and so we have two of those so one for the C7D and one for the R6 that was it and that was camera we would use the C7D was the like

outside of the water camera and it was the underwater camera so if anything happened to it we were done you know What lenses were you using? Well, I brought 16 to 35 F4, the Canon EF lens. All of them were EF lenses, not the new RF mount. Because they made me, the money to buy the new ones.

And these were my lenses from photography. So that one, the 24 to 70, 2.8, the second one, the version number two, Mark tube and the 100 to 400 millimeter the lens you know the white one the old one also and but most of the time I was working with the 24 to 17 which is my two-go lens like all the time doing whatever I'm doing is it's either video or photo I love that lens I love the way it looks I it's very reliable you know the weather ceiling world's perfect you know in the Amazon and I wish we had the money to go for cinema lenses or something more fancy but it's we we didn't have money and and but we

sorted out like at the end at this for this kind of style or for shooting a documentary like this no one's looking at how they you know the these little things that right the the boca like oh look say that you know how the autofocus thing looks you know and uh so and also i didn't want to make it more complex for me to transition from being a photographer and videographer, you know, and throwing in the mix, new lenses and stuff, which is what's going to be a nightmare. Yeah, I've, so I write the company that distributes this podcast, Pro Video Coalition, I write for them and I have a bunch of articles. So every once in a while I get asked stuff, for some reason, people want my opinion.

And the whole like cinema lens versus photo lens thing has started to get really boring because like when you say like, oh, which we had a city lens, like you did it the right way. If you're a solo shooter, using a cinema lens is just going to make your life miserable. It doesn't necessarily look better. Like it's got to, you've got all these gears that you have to hand, you know, having the long focus throw is kind of nice. but uh everything having everything be manual for especially something like this documentary you shoot you absolutely did it the right way i would go photo lens a hundred percent of the time yeah no we we used autofocus sometimes mostly was minor focus with the you know the the thing how you go it uh fokines what what's the name focus ring just a little the thing you put on the side

by wire yeah not by wire but just oh oh the um follow focus Follow focus, yes. So I was focusing manually and doing the whole thing because auto focus is good on C70 is good, but there are some occasions where it hands a little bit, especially backlit situations. Dark shadows, yeah, yeah. And we had like not a ton of that, but some moments we have had that and I just didn't want to have that, like the cameras thinking, look, you know, the hunting focus is decidedly not cinematic exactly yeah that exactly so we wanted to make it look like it was make like with our own hands it's just to put it that way and it's part of

this indie nuke and the idea style that the director wanted so I think it worked perfectly but we did use the autofocus and for some sith it was just key because I wasn't able to move and walk around, you know, and try to focus all the time. It's just impossible. Yeah. We're using an external monitor at all because that little one on the C70 is a little difficult in daylight. Not too bad, but...

No, not really bad at all. Most of the time we work with that one. We had and brought one one external monitor, like mounted on the camera and, but at day two or three, the cable got messed up and then you forget about. about it and then sometimes I had the monitor on the top with no cable, you know, so I was just like it was it was by day four we just forget about that and work with the like the camera which was right. Yeah, that is one of the reasons. Like I just, I think the C70 is such a perfect I was just talking about this to someone online last night like the C70 is such a perfect little

like especially documentary camera but just I just wish it had SDI but if it had SDI it would basically be a C-300 so you know it's like I guess you can't cannibalize your own product like that but for that exact reason like having an H-DMI

cable you know especially for running around in the forest you know it's going to get yanked out exactly exactly and that's what it happened you know but fortunately the monitor that comes with the camera is actually pretty good.

And I wanted to point out that the dual gain output sensor, which is, it's amazing. Oh, it's a, it's a, I think it's the best thing of that camera is that sensor. Because especially for those situations, and I've been on, like, shooting on the forest a lot, which tends to be super dark. And then you have this sunlight coming through the, you know, the color bee. And if you don't have this sensor, you have to choose to blow something out, you know,

or to have the, you know, the darks crushed, completely crushed. And this camera was handling it like a, like a pro, you know. There was no choosing anything. It was just, you can have it all at the same time. It's amazing. Yeah. Someone's trying to, someone's trying to interrupt the interview. So, oh, to your point about the monitor, I have a C-500 Mark 2, which does have SDI,

but kind of what you're saying, like, I'll put really nice monitors on the top of that, and then I find that it's too big. So I just go with the built-in one. Like, you know, you get a little sunshade for it or whatever, but nine times out of 10, that's going to do just fine. Yeah, it works. So were you sending the footage off to a colorist at all, or were you, was that kind of like a built-in look?

Did you help develop the look? Or how did you kind of come about that? Because it does, it look, you could tell anyone that was shot on anything and they would believe you. You know, there's definitely not a low, low budget look to it at all. Yeah, no. And also, no, but not also like super refined.

So we wanted from the beginning to have this natural lookie thing, which is also becoming very rare now you know so we work with the colorist and one which is very good a proving guy also but we talked to him a few times and whatever we talked to him

was about maintaining the naturalistic look of relaying on the good lighting and you know and not going for orange until nothing like that you know it's right yeah no cinematic loose transformers amazon yeah exactly so just a little uh you know give you a little kick to to to for the saturation but that was it that was that was that was it and and uh i think it that's really we really like that we that we go that that way and you're shooting C-log 2 the whole time C-Log 2 yeah yeah Yeah, that's the move.

I tend to spend as a hyper nerd too much time, maybe not too much, but quite a bit of time. And resolve, I'll like just rip off. Yesterday I filmed, I got like this anamorphic setup for my C-500 that's kind of jerry-rig, and I was just filming my cats. And then, you know, just throw it in resolve and then be like, all right, let's see if we can develop a new. I probably develop a new lot for that camera every two weeks just to, you know, like try to, come find my own like stock look you know like my own film stock kind of thing um so it can it can be very uh easy to get lost in the weeds on look development yep especially when you own the camera and you can just sit there and do you end up doing all that do you like sit at home and test

things or you're much more like i need to be somewhere doing stuff yeah no i i i do like feel a little bit with the color and i don't work on da vinci yet i i work on Premiere with the little tools they give you. But I try not to get too caught into that, you know, because it ends up happening that you go too much and spend too many time, too many hours, you know, playing with the sliders and like that, which I do a lot.

In photography, I do that a lot. If I were, I see, but like, since I come from photography, the tools that they give you for, for video, or whatever, at least the ones I have, they're not nearly as good. Also, like, the files, the quality of the files, because I don't work, or we didn't work this movie in role. There was no role in the wall when we shoot Shidambri. So, Xavis and, you know, the format you should in CLO2, it's good.

It gives you, like, tons of flexibility, but not the same as photos. and I come from photography and I cannot forget that, you know? So I get bored pretty quickly. It's, oh, man, like, that's one thing I think not, so I didn't come from photography, but I used to be a, I used to work for Red Bull as a concert and event photographer. And I would definitely, again, get lost in the weeds editing. But that is one thing about film, video, whatever you want to call it, like, it took me years to realize it's like, the lighter, the touch, the better.

Like, if you go into a video thinking, like, I'm going to treat this like lightroom, it'll just, you'll over process the hell out of it. It'll start to look real crispy and like, especially, you know, you get in resolve and you've got windows. You can just wind out, like, end up relighting your whole scene. And you're like, all right, that was 40 minutes and next clip, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But unfortunately, we worked with this with Peres, the Cesar Perez, the guy who knows that stuff.

And I just, like, kind of give a few looks and said, okay, many color correction things to match both cameras because we, like, the R6 and the C70, they look different for sure. So that was a concern. And then more than skin tones, it was removing the green cast from the forest, you know? forest yeah a lot of green bounce green bounce so that was like and also like not removing the shadows and like that that was one of the main things you know let's work like we we like shadows we want shadows we don't want this hdr look or whatever they're going for now so well not now you know but um like that was the whole coloring thing for me yeah did you have any like uh reference films or photos that you kind of leaned on before going into the project that you were looking

at or sharing with the director? Yeah, for sure. We watched Coniland, you know, have you seen that one? No. No, I was supposed to. I think I... No, yeah, I didn't see it. It's amazing, you know, it's beautiful.

Mining the Gap, which is a documentary about Skater Kid. Yeah, yeah. Like, beautiful documentary. You know, empty pockets. Those were the ones I remember, and I loved all of them, you know. Not so much to get a, like, to go and copy that, you know, but for the narrative and how the camera moves and the little things, you know. Those were the main. And also for photography, like talking about photography, the Leweski, you know, the Leweski movies.

That was, that was it, you know. the revenue but all the others she made you know well I'm I'm proud of you for not shooting the entire short on a 16 millimeter oh yeah

and that was like very on purpose because I like the white animal look and you know it's it's like it impacts you know but for this movie wasn't the best because it turns faces into like

it gives them this brutal thing you know these it makes you look primitive. Yeah. So you see the Leonardo Caprio's shots. He looked like a Neanderthal, you know? He looks, and his son in the Revenant, being like a mixed kind of indigenous guy,

looks primitive, like really primitive. And it's not his face. It's the 16 millimeter. So for... It's a thing about like not making these people, you know, the Asheninka people look primitive. We didn't want to have that because this is, in Peru at least, is some, it's not racist, but it's part of the, you know, the stereotype and having them being like primitive comes with some other negative ideas around, you know, and we didn't want that. We wanted to portray them like beautiful, you know, like powerful, like, you know, that was the idea. So 16 wasn't working for that, 24.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah. The, I think you had a good, quick shot in there. Because that was actually something that I thought about watching the short was, you know, this group of folks don't, they're not primitive, but they are. the only word I can find is simple but I don't mean like simple I mean like you know they're a simple way of life you know a strip down way of life but the one shy you have in there that you know

kind of tells you what you need know is just the kids watching whatever movie or whatever on the cell phone you know everyone's got like football jerseys on you know they're there it's not like they're out of touch with the outside world they're just kind of like, this is just, it's a choice more than a, than a, than I have to do. And it was a choice for us to show that, you know, because some people go into those places and go, hey, bro, remove, please remove your shoes, you know, because they're wearing the Nike shoes and it fucks up your idea of indigenous people, which they always walk with no shoes, you know, because they love to be in contact with the earth, which is completely false.

So we didn't want to, like, go into that narrative. We wanted to show the, like, the real world, you know, they are traditional in their way of living, but they are also in contact with the outside the world. And Arnindo, you know, he was also, like, besides being the protagonist, along with his son, Ricky, for this movie, he was part of the production group. So he's a guy who's being there and being, like, as a show. Jenny Kass, you can be, he works with his cell phone, he has Zoom calls, you know, he answers the WhatsApp messages, and he's pretty much a citizen of the world. And then he sees the reality now for most of the Amazonic people, you know, not only Peru, but for indigenous people around the world, we have this romanticized, you know, the way of looking or thinking about them, which is not real.

And there are some who don't connect with our culture or whatever, but there's, there's, the most of them, they are. And, you know, they watch shows on their cell phone and they play video games and stuff like that. It is, I was, I saw a TikTok of all things last night where a guy was describing how, um, it was the context was like, uh, religion or lack thereof in African cultures and how, We tend to frame that experience or that thing in Western ideas. You know, so there has to be a deity. There has to be a God because that's how we tend to view things. And how that has stripped those specific cultures from their home culture because we're trying to fit their experience into a westernized box.

And I think that's, you know, obviously it doesn't just apply to actually. African cultures, it seems like it also applies to like this kind of thing, where it's, their experience does not have to fit the, you know, one-to-one lifestyle of a Western audience, even though the tools and experiences, cell phones, whatever, are the same or can be the same. Exactly. Yeah. That just said, you know, and also, like, talking about that, our documentary works with a very Western-like, Western narrative, you know, the hero's journey. Right, right. So in some way we are putting them or they're experiencing to this kind of frame

to connect with the Western audiences, you know, because we're using that as a tool to connect with you to put it in a way. You know, maybe we go for the traditional way of storytelling, you know, it might have enough be as touching for you, you know, for, for you, for you, for me, for, you know, the the Western people. Yeah.

We kind of. I remember. Like, we, yeah, it's escape it. Well, and it's such an interesting, I've had this conversation with someone else on this podcast, but like one thing that simultaneously makes me kind of like proud to be an American and specifically a Californian, but at the same time as kind of like, has got. Now, the hand, is like, we invented cinema, not well, for the most part, you know, obviously there's a lot of influences there. But like just the act of, you know, motion picture filming came from us.

And that spread outward. But then at the same time, that obviously the hero's journey is not a cinematic concept. But the way that we inherit stories or tell stories definitely went with film. And then you had like the French going like, no, fuck that. We're going to do other stuff. And they had a huge influence, obviously, and Germans and especially the Russians. But I remember in college learning about a specific, like, Japanese storytelling style, which is like a four-act structure that doesn't quite have an arc.

Yeah. And I wish I could remember the name at the moment. But I made a short film for a class using that four-act structure. And I got like a D. because the director or the professor is just like this doesn't there's no there's nothing here this makes no sense there's just like they have a problem and then what they just it's just fixed there's no there's no conflict here and I had to like print out this thing I was like print out yeah this is how long college was and I was like no no it's like it's like Japanese stuff and he was

like yeah let's just focus on the basics I was like basics too yeah yeah then we are so we You know, in our culture, you know, we think even in those spaces, you know, an academic space where you are supposed to be, you know, challenging to the whatever the storytelling tells you to do, you know. But we cannot escape this. That's the crazy part. We are immersed. Yeah. It is, I do wonder, like, obviously the sort of hero's journey three-act structure thing has endured over time. And I wonder if that is a result of, for lack of a better term, colonialism, or if it's, if there is something specific and unique to that structure that holds any human psyche or whatever.

I've never really thought about that. That's what the author of the book says about it, right? I don't remember the name of this guy, but the one who came up with this book about the hero's journey. And he said that he came with this idea from studying all the cultures, you know, and like this is engraved in our DNA or something like that. And then you read a little more and you find out, no, it's not. But it resonates with people for sure. You know, I think we all want to see, like, a good transformation and, you know, having this happy ending to put it some way.

And this movie takes advantage of this, to fit this indigenous world thing into this, no, format. And I think this is, like, a happy marriage, you know. Yeah. Because East Elementary has had such a break recession, you know, like I didn't expect it for sure, and not neither any of the team. You know, we've been part of some great film festivals and been in Sundance, something we could, like we, like, I don't have a visit for reason, you know. So no one was expecting this and we're so happy.

yeah i mean it does like i know we just talked about three acts structure and stuff but it it the thing i like about the short is it's like um it doesn't seem to have it i think if if you come at it from a non uh film literate perspective maybe that sounds derogatory but that's not what i mean i just mean like if you're the average person watching this thing it does feel like there's no structure and you're just kind of watching a slice of life and then but it does it does like it has i mean it has to it just it makes you feel good i don't know how else to describe it you're just you're just constantly watching it and then i you know what i have to say i really love the uh touch of um the end credit scene where he's

just sitting there smoking a cigarette that is a very uh kind of like miazaki style just like staring at a frame. I really enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah. And then it was probably the, there was two frames where we worked with a huge bounce or the reflector and that because we didn't use any other light modifier and thing, like the whole movie. But this one one shot and we made it like knowing this was going to go on the end credit. So we had the time to set it up.

And we had, we had this huge, you know, bounce. and huge diffused diffusing clothes, you know, if we shoot through that. So it was that I love it. You know, every time I see it, I'm proud of myself. Well, I want to be. I did want to ask before we kind of wrap up here, but the sound design also is really, really good. Was that just all the on-camera audit?

Was that more like kind of, I suppose, diogenic as you got it? Or was there like a lot of mixing going on there? There's mixing, yeah, for sure. Going on. We shot with the shot on in camera. We had a like a boom. Oh, okay. For the underwater stuff,

we also brought those bikes you can throw into the water, an underwater mic. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And then on the mix, we worked with someone who is just someone very good who is to mix the whole thing and he's grabbing, you know,

sound from here and putting the name into other places and we played a lot with the sound for that, from that effect. So you feel like the water is close, you know, even if you don't see it. So it's, yeah, we're playing tricks with your mind, you know. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a very expertly executed short doc

and you should feel proud. Like I said, we're about coming up on time, so I'll have to let you go. But I asked the same three questions. Usually it's two, but three for documentarians. So the first one, we'll go with the easy one. As a documentarian, especially a photographer, you're walking around a lot. There's a great magnum book or like PDF called like wear good shoes or something like that. Do you have a shoe recommendation?

for having to clomp around all the time and be on your feet for 12 hours a day. Well, yeah. So, especially for being shipping in the Amazon. Okay. So I do this a lot. I go to the Amazon now. So dry fast shoes. Is it the brand or just stuff the dries? No, no, no. It's not the brand. It's a quality of the build, the material, you know, because some people go with these shoes that won't get wet, but then you step on a cold and you get watering to your shoe, and then those shoes, they won't dry fast. So you have wet shoes or wet feet all the time, and that's horrible, you know? So shoes, yeah, the ones that dry fast. That's,

that's it. No brand, no nothing. If they dry fast, those are the shoes you want. Yeah, that's about the shoes. No boots. Because, you know, when you go to the Amazon, the experts will tell you you have to wear boots because then you might find a snake and, you know, if you get beaten by a snake, you fucked. But no, I don't care.

I cannot walk with boots, you know. These rubber boots, those are awful, are horrible for walking. And you need to be comfortable and, you know. So light, dry fast shoes. That's the answer. Perfect. Second question.

If you were to program, I guess it's going to be kind of easy. Maybe not, because of Sundance, but if you were to program your shorts with another film, it could compare, it can contrast, it can complement, whatever you want, double feature, your short in another film, what's the other film? Oh, you got me there. Well, I would go with one of the references we were watching. Mining the Gap would be a nice one because of its, you know, indie look and being about kids also, but from a more modern part of the world, you know. But maybe not the length, you know, they won't be, they won't work so much because of, you know, but I think those would be, like, good match.

I think Minding the Gap is a great answer. And if anyone hasn't seen that documentary, it's fantastic. especially if you grew up in the 90s, early 2000s, or even late 80s, skateboarding, which I did. But third question, everyone always asks about the best advice you ever got. I find that boring. I want to know what the worst advice you ever got was. Yeah, I don't know what was the worst advice.

advice, I don't hear too much to other people, you know, and that sounds horrible coming from me, but, well, maybe not like the direct advice to me, but I think the, if you are someone young and starting, like, everywhere you will find these messages about the equipment and what you should get and this whole thing about being cinematic and shit like that, you You know, that's the worst thing. That, like, falling for that trap, you know. I think that the hope that you should be focused on things that resonate with you, you know, being in love with your character or the story you want to tell or being, you know, obsessed.

And that pays much more than spending tons of money on gear you will use once and, you know, forget about it. You know, it's not about gear. It never... Yeah. I mean, the gear... You can get the fanciest gear imaginable, and if you don't have a story to tell you, you might as well be a photographer.

Yeah. You know, spend all that money on a nice stills camera and just go take pretty pictures because that's what it'll amount to in the cinematography world. Yep. Well, thanks for spending the time with me, man. That was a really great conversation.

And like I said, the short is fantastic. And for some reason, like a heartwarming short, but it makes you feel good watching it. So I imagine everyone at Sundance is having a good time with it. Awesome. Thanks, Kenny. Thanks for having these talk and meeting you. And yeah, thanks. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F at Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast.

you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.