Frame & Reference Podcast - 86: "Detective Knight" Trilogy DP Laffrey Witbrod

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

Welcome to another episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, this week Kenny talks with cinematographer Laffrey Witbrod about the "Detective Knight" trilogy. Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 86 with Laffrey Whitbrood, DP of the Detective Knight trilogy, starring Bruce Willis. Enjoy. What have I been watching recently? I mean, the movie I just watched that, like, really hit me was women talking. Oh. I don't know of that one. It's, yeah, I think it's like a weird little sleeper, which kind of makes sense because it is basically just a bunch of women talking about sexual assault.

Oh, man. But it's a really intense, interesting, complicated movie. Interesting. Is it like a one room kind of? Yes, it's a one room with some like expansion of that space. Like they do a couple of flashbacks. They do a few things outside. And it's like set on this like cult commune sort of, you know, farm or something.

Like maybe they're Mennonites, maybe they're Amish. Like they don't really explain what they are. Gotcha. it's it's an intense movie that is like the thing that I saw a couple weeks ago and nobody I know except for the person I went with has seen it and so I'm just like I want to talk to somebody about this and nobody's seen it I feel bad because I haven't seen you know a lot of times since starting this podcast like I get introduced to films because I'm about to interview the person and that's actually been like a net blessing for me because otherwise it's like checking the AMC app and going like oh what's in the there and you know and now in theaters too you get two days to see certain films and then they're like all right make room for wakonda forever especially the type of movies i'm making these days yeah was uh were you always drawn to like uh more kind of dramatic films or did you get did you get into film because of like action movies and shit like that um i think i think i've just

always liked a really weird variety of movies then Because like the other movie that came out this year that I really love and saw multiple times in the theaters was everything everywhere all at once. And it's like completely different a movie, but both of them really made me feel things. Both of them were really interesting. You know, that one's got crazy action and is like 12 different genres smashed into one. This other one is people talking in a barn. And like both of those, I think, can be great. Yeah.

Like, I love the full, like, spectrum of what cinema can be. Yeah, that's something that I... Did you go to film school? Yeah. Yeah, I went to the Colorado Film School in Denver. Oh, are you from there? Are you just... I'm originally from Montana.

So I grew up in Montana, went to, like, a year of college for film there. It wasn't what I was looking for. and then went to Colorado, found the film school. It was very hands-on. It was just like, here are cameras. Go make movies. We'll give you a little guidance, which was exactly what I needed. Yeah, I went to Arizona State, and the film school had started two years before I got there.

So theirs was more like, in theory, this is how you make a film. Fight over a 5D will get back to you at the end of four years. Yeah. so that was potentially less apparently now it's killer but at the time so yeah that that whole like appreciating the spectrum of film

they definitely attempted to instill in us but didn't you know we didn't have enough time for it and it's interesting that I feel like I think you know so many kids going into film school or going into college

like what they want to do is the hands-on side of it and they try to put push all the theory first and then the hands on side. And like, like I actually wish I could go back and take some of the classes that were from that first year of film school that I did at the other school. Now that I have more of appreciation of like reading films

and like the complexity of how they all interrelate and things like that. Yeah. But I needed to just get some movies out of my system. And so I think that's what the Colorado Film School did well is like we start by just giving you cameras and letting you play and letting you make mistakes and know that you know the first five movies you're going to make are going to be terrible and so we have you make five movies in your

first semester um and and we start introducing theory uh in the later semesters and i think that model actually worked very well for me i think i think you're 100% right because i even suggest i mean you see those suggestions given to people or just trying to be self-taught is like just go just go make stuff and then we'll worry about it later like don't try to make your first film uh your your magnumobus because it will not be you know or even um i just saw a clip of sylvester stalone talking about writing and he was just like you long hand out all the bullshit or actually um well we'll finish that thought you long hand it out and then you flesh it out and then it's probably like 10% good but the revision part is the fun part and um i think it was the gosh shoot

another writer who's recently hit success was it the menu but he was basically saying you just bullet point it and then fill them out and then as you go you erase each bullet point and replace it with a paragraph and then eventually you have a script i think oh you know what it was the guy who did um uh ex machina oh but i okay but i think it's the same way with filmmaking or i guess this isn't the same it's kind of tangential but uh yeah letting kids get a hold of the equipment and just make horrible because they're going every kid makes the same kicking a hobo briefcase full of cocaine single red rose alarm clock at the beginning of the day film yeah yeah we've we've all made a bunch of those movies and if you try to make that as you know your first feature instead of going to film school um like yeah i'm sure there are people who just go out there and make some sort of amazing first thing that's not most of us most of us need to get those best of us bad films out of our system. And I think most film schools don't actually allow for that space, right? Yeah. That, like, they spend so much time teaching you how to make films, and then you try to make one or two films. But really, those are, yeah, those are the Red Rose alarm clock movies.

Well, and even so, like, you think about teaching children, children, you're teaching people, anything, especially kids, but teaching anyone anything, even if you say, do not do this do not do this do not do this they have to do it before they realize why they shouldn't do it no one ever takes advice no one takes advice yeah and so i think that's where it's like okay maybe just let you go do it and then talk about like did that work or not um rather than starting with don't do it like start with do something and then let's figure out what worked and what didn't and when you've got you know 20 or 30 people doing that in the class yeah most of those movies are very similar, but they're different enough that we learned 20 or 30 different

lessons from each set round of films that we made because we were also watching each other's films and talking about what didn't, didn't work in them. Yeah. Was it was it film school that kind of honed your film analysis brain? Because for me, it took many years after film school to actually kind of understand how to read film, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think some of it was things that I learned in that first semester at the other school. Like, I think that did open some little stores. And so I'm like,

I'm like, okay, I am grateful for that. Again, I wish I could go back and take those classes now. Some of it was things that I learned in like at CFS. And then some of it is just, yeah,

the next 15, 20 years of watching movies and talking about movies with people. Like, you know, I think in some ways I've probably learned more about analyzing movies through talking to other intelligent filmmakers or people who are just cinephiles who love movies about movies we just watched.

Another, though, actually really interesting experience like unfilmed school related but helped me learn a lot about bad movies, good movies, and just like what is interesting and what isn't interesting in a movie is I was a screener for a film festival for a while. And that, like, you know, it's one of those things that you might not think of, but it's a volunteer thing that you can do, and you will learn a lot from doing that. You will watch a lot of bad movies, a lot of bad movies.

Some of them have something interesting in them, and you're like, oh, I'm actually glad I watched that. I never would have paid for that. I never like it shouldn't be in this film festival but there's like a nugget of truth or a nugget of something that's interesting and then a lot of them are like oh yeah I'm seeing these bad movies over and over and I now am like what what is it that sets apart these good movies that were like yes we want these in our festival from these other ones um so yeah no that's a that's a great point because I think uh so recently a friend of mine made a doctor documentary that he put in a bunch of film festivals and then eventually got nominated for an Emmy. Did I say it was a doc? It was a doc. And I was talking about it, the experience the whole thing, but one thing that we were kind of discussing was film festivals are where if you're an indie filmmaker, if you haven't quite broken it, like where your stuff will get seen. But it also, exactly like you're saying,

Like, it gives you such an amazing kind of 30,000 foot view of what is currently being made. And if you have good taste, which you might have to hone, you might have been born with it. You'll easily be able to see, again, like we were saying, like, don't make that mistake. Ooh, that's a good idea. Wow, that person's about to blow up. You know, and it's way more valuable than watching theater films or conversely, YouTube. You know? Yeah.

Well, and then also then imagine watching all the movies that don't make it into that festival. Great point. Oh, so you weren't just the projectionist. You were also making me. No, I was the screener. Like, sorry, I maybe didn't make that clear. I was the first round, like part of a group. It was the first round of defense for.

Gotcha. Trying to get into this festival. So that, okay, that's fascinating. It also, like, completely, like, tore apart the stuff. of what the back end of a film festival looks like. Sure. Because I think in my mind, I pictured, you know, submitting our films to the festival and a bunch of elite, smart filmmaking people are sitting in a dark theater,

watching our movie, deciding if it should be in the festival. And instead, it's me with my laptop on my count being like, I've got a meeting tomorrow, and I've still got five more movies I haven't watched. Like, you better be good or I'm shipping you off. well you know what's interesting is i i i didn't imagine that exact scenario but i always did imagine that festivals were like people watching 20 movies back to back and we're and exactly like you're saying like they would always tell us in film school or whatever you know like oh make sure the you know make sure there's a hook make sure that you're which isn't necessarily

the way that you'd make films today but if you're making a festival film there is definitely actually i'm going to ask you since you were this person instead of pontificating what uh what kind of is what are some things you should do in a festival film that in general that you might not do in a regular film or you know vice versa or whatever good question and it has been a minute since i've been a part of this group um i think one piece of it definitely is some sort of hook right like i we had to watch i don't remember it was like 20 or 30 minutes of the movie no matter what um before we could shut it off and so you've got to i've got to feel like the rest of the movie is worth watching. I think you've also,

I mean, I was going to say like, you've got to sort of know what your movie is and like make a movie that appeals to the right type of person because different festivals are going to be different. But that might be true just film make in general.

Maybe that's not a festival film thing specifically. I'm trying to think of what other I mean, I suppose it could be because, like, you definitely, there's certain, like, obviously prestige in certain festivals, there's certain, depending on which city or state that you're submitting to might be different. But I imagine that, you know, for a theatrical release film, you're not targeting these days. It doesn't seem like you're targeting one specific audience unless you're lucky enough to get that kind of money. it seems like you're trying to make the broadest appeal. That could be changing now. But it did feel like for a while there we were trying to like every movie was a movie by committee.

You know, a lot of notes. And I think maybe that actually comes out of the like the niche market of streaming, right? But like all of a sudden streaming was the place where you could make the weirdly specific thing that only, you know, 10,000 people want to see or whatever. but there's a market for it that there's enough people that there that want to see it's probably more than 10,000 but whatever those numbers

actually they are and so all the sudden then cinema like theatrical movies had to be the ones that everybody wanted to see because you had this other market that was getting the funds

for the things that were smaller and because you had to like get enough different people into those seats because people just weren't going in the same way that they used to like people weren't going to weird independent cinemas as much to watch that weird niche thing that they couldn't

watch anywhere else. Yeah. How do you think you, how can we encourage people? Because we're, you know, we're talking about how valuable it is to see weird movies that wouldn't necessarily get in front of you. And how do you think we encourage people to give those films a chance? Because obviously people's, right now, money is not free as it used to be. so to speak and

you know people's time is incredibly valuable so people don't often choose like oh I'm going to go take a chance on some double feature at American Cinematick or La Mali or whatever I mean I guess I don't know that like

I feel like the people who would need convincing probably don't want to go watch those movies anyways I don't know maybe that's not true Like, I guess maybe I wish some things were sold to me a little bit more or something. But I'm like, I want to go see weird movies and other people don't want to go see weird movies. Like, right?

Like, most audience, most people going to a theater want to see some sort of big rom-com, big blockbuster, big drama, whatever. like those things that they go to the movies to see. And it is cool that we live in a place like Los Angeles or people who live in New York are these bigger markets that can support Art House movie theaters where you can go and see smaller, weirder movies. I think the way we, like, I think the way audiences maybe are getting away from that

and I think it's a good thing is back to, the internet is streaming is short-firm content on the internet like all these interesting things um you know it's like something like everywhere where all at once like did great this year and isn't a movie that you like that on paper has to be really hard to sell um a lot of highlighters this character is actually this one blah blah that's got to be just one of those movies that nobody's going to fund or say yes to and so you've got to like build in an interest like a way like enough credibility to your audience and the people who are funding your projects to be like this will work and we have proved ourselves in all these different avenues

um like one of the things that I actually love about the Daniels is that and I guess I haven't looked recently but I assume you can still do this you could go on their uh video page and go back through all the things they've ever uploaded. No, that's all still there. I had, when I interviewed the DP I went and looked through all the old stuff. Yeah. Interesting ball of all that stuff.

Them playing with, but like even before interesting ball and all that, like if you go back far enough, it's them like using After Effects to make their belly buttons saying. Yeah. And I'm like, there's like there's a through line there of like that stuff that kids are doing just experimenting to okay now we've gotten like the credibility like we're doing some weird music

videos now we've gotten the credibility to do some big budget music videos then we do our short film interesting ball and then we do a feature and then we do a bigger feature and it's like I think maybe it's it's not convincing people to go to the movies like people are going to go to what they want to go to. It's convincing maybe the gatekeepers, the people with the money, that we have made things that people have enjoyed enough that people will come to the movies for this. Yeah. And I think that part of that is building up to that.

Yeah, because one conversation I've heard a lot is like the death of the kind of mid-budget comedy. and I think you could expand that out because like everything everywhere I think was only 10 mil whatever number got I asked um crap I'm blanking on his name I asked the DP and he was saying whatever number everyone was saying it was half of that so it was not you know it wasn't a very big budget it looks like a big budget film but that's like what that's what passion looks like when everyone and also great leadership Yeah.

But when you're talking about something I wanted to ask about the film festival thing before we moved on from that was, and this kind of ties back, was, you know, when people can't talk to you, speaking of the director of the documentary, when we look back at like the Daniels, you know, singing belly buttons or whatever, you put that in a festival, someone's going to say no, but maybe, I don't know, maybe actually that's not. That's not a good point. Most festivals, but yeah. But that's clearly someone trying something out to get to a bigger point. Did you see any common stuff in festivals that happened over and over and over again that you were like, okay, we need to get like an all points bulletin out, like tell people stop, stop doing this, the kind of, back in my day, it was the red roses and the cocaine in a briefcase. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think like one of the other ones you mentioned,

that I think is still a problem maybe always will be is the like day in the life type movies and any version of that like and also like unless you do it really well right like of course you can make the Red Rose movie really well and it's worth making

you can make the day in a life movie really well and it's worth making I think yeah it's I think the other one for me that's like almost always terrible is the movie about a filmmaker right yeah oh what the fablements but then every so often it gets done really well right like there are some movies where it's like oh yeah this does actually need to be a movie about a filmmaker but most of them

don't need to exist it just is the thing you know it's the right the thing you know it's like no write the thing you know but also the thing that's weird and interesting and that's only it feels weird and interesting to like you as the filmmaker because it feels like making films is so hard. Yeah. It is. I think make a movie about what you know is some of the worst advice ever because it makes, because kids don't or people who are just starting. I keep saying kids. I'm 32. I'm not that fucking old. People who hear that advice don't know what the advice vice givers are saying. Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not, you know, oh, I, I wake up and do things every day. I should make that movie. It's like, what is your point of view about a thing? Tell me about that. Yeah. Right. Right. And how can you explode that idea into something interesting? And maybe that is making a literal, this was the story of my life movie. But more likely it's like, setting that movie in space or it's you know somehow being like what is how do we take this thing

that is you know interesting to us and this thing that I have a perspective like I have a unique perspective on this because of who I am and what my history is now how do I take that and put it in an interesting package that people want to see um a great example I just saw someone uh on the old TikTok, I think, was pointing out that like Casey Nystatt, of all people, had a very boring on paper, every episode of what he did was, goes to the store, whatever, but he was able to construct it in such a way that you were compelled to watch. And so if you have something that's interesting to you, you can construct it in a way that will become compelling. And it may or may not win, but at least it'll make someone interested in what you have to say. And then

you go from there. Yeah. Were you always interesting? Because it kind of sounds like you've got a good directorial mind. Were you always trying to be a cinematographer? Or did you kind of do the classic? I want to be a director. Nevermind, DP for me.

Well, I mean, I think if we take it even further back than that, it's like I think I always wanted to be a storyteller. Like, I don't know that that's how I would have described it as a kid. But, like, I used to, like, push my cousins on the swing and, like, tell them, a story and like play with the swing to like bring that story to life um and then at some point i got a camera and i started making movies with it um and then i actually remember like having like a mid-childhood crisis where i'm like all of the cool people who are doing interesting things like started when they were younger than i am and i haven't started doing anything yet

and then at some point later once i was like oh i think i want to do film i'm like oh wait when I was having those weird childhood thoughts, I had already started doing it and probably nobody recognizes it at that point because it is these things that you're just innately drawn to. And a little bit of that was the technical stuff for me, but I think mostly it was the storytelling. And so, but I think maybe originally I thought

that would have looked like being a writer or a playwright or something like that, but I'm dyslexic. And so like actually writing and reading was always sort of a struggle for me. And I think at some point I realized, oh, wait, I can tell interesting stories and other people are telling interesting stories through cameras. And so, yeah, I kept on grabbing cameras and making movies with them. In film school, like, I had actually, like, in high school, I had started, like, filming

dance recitals and different local things and made some money and was able to buy a decent camera and so like in my first semester i had a better camera than we were like able to borrow from the film school um and so there were a lot of my buddies who were like asking me to shoot their movies because i had the cool camera um xl2 for me uh-huh um yeah uh a g l1 um yeah basically same thing yeah yep uh so um yeah it was like I guess I sort of came at it through that, but I think I also realized that like crafting the visuals and telling the story in that sort of way

was the thing that I really enjoyed. Like I did direct in film school. I think when I started film school, I don't think I understood all the different titles. So yeah, of course, you're sort of like, yeah, I want to make movies. And I think what that looks like to you is either you're an actor or you're a director

because those are the two roles we understand like those are the ones we hear about and we don't know about the entire army of people that actually made that movie of course the actors and the director are also important and I think like more recently

I have directed a few little projects like some music videos some shorts and different things some of which that I've also shot and some of the which I have worked with a DP on and my feeling after each of those was like I enjoyed that I wasn't like oh I need to do more of that and so I think my thought is like if if more directing opportunities come into my life I would probably say yes to some of those and I could see like having some sort of project grab me and be like no actually I want

to direct this I want to write and direct this project or I want to make this documentary or whatever because it's just like it's really grabbing me. But also I think there's a part of me that's like I I like having a specialty and I like being like one of the like main creators of a movie while not having to deal with as much of like the financing bureaucracy and all of the like political side and you know that like I don't get the joy out of like working with an actor. Like, I want to work with actors in the way that I do, and I love, like, when I can be part of, like, creating the space for an actor to give their performance and, like, working with the director. And I've definitely had moments where I'm like, I don't think, like, where I pulled the director aside and I'm like, I don't think we got this. And he's like, no, we didn't get it, but I don't know what to do. I don't have any other tricks. And I'm like, okay, let me, let's try something different.

So we'll, like, talk, like, what's working, what's not working? then we'll go back in and like the first time I remember doing that it was on the first feature I shot and it was like this scene where this our main character's mom had just died and they've got a weird codependent relationship and so it's like this really intense moment and we had filmed like there was an initial like blow up scene and then there was supposed to be this like reflective on the couch scene and he was just giving us way too much melodrama on the couch like it wasn't, like it wasn't, he wasn't doing anything that was interesting because he was just trying to tell us that his mom just died. And it's like, we know that. You already broke the

lamp. You already threw the records around the room. Like, we don't need any more of you telling us how upset you are. We need to feel how upset you are. And so the director tried a few things. We went off and talked. We came back. We came up with a strategy where I'm like, okay, all I need now is an insert of you, your hands. We just need like you ringing your hands. And we had been shooting the whole movie handheld, and so I was always just, like, moving the camera around in different directions, and the actors had just gotten used to that, and so they think they weren't really paying attention to it. And so he just, like, starts ringing his hands, and I start filming that, and then I slowly drift up to his face, and I start filming his face.

And he's, like, just giving us this thing where he's been living in this headspace of, like, my mom just died, and so he's still thinking about that, and he's putting that into his hands, but he's able to put all the intensity into what he's doing with his hands and so his face is relaxing into this more interesting, more nuanced performance. And so it's like, I love coming up with little things like that with the director

and helping them and working with the actors in that sort of way. I don't think I want the day-to-day job of working with actors. Yeah, no, I bet. Yeah, that's such a, what is that, the famous Russian soup juxtaposition test thing. Yeah, why can't I think of it either?

Yeah, whatever, it doesn't matter. But it does, it's always interesting when something simple like that actually does come back as being true. Like, you know, sometimes, that's an interesting technique, though, to have someone, like, do, put all their energy somewhere else so you can film the thing you want. I'm going to have to, like, ponder on that, because that's actually a, pretty good. I'm sure I I'm sure that someone has like a better example of that but that's a well and not a better example in yours a better like um can elucidate what I'm trying to say here well I think the other thing that's interesting is to realize like okay what do different actors need to bring out their best stuff right because some of them need you to tell them like

this is what you're going through this is what I need you to give me and other ones want you or need you to play weird little mind games with them. Right. And it's important to understand what those different things are as the director, but also as the rest of the crew, because you're then creating that space. And like, one of an interesting thing, I guess also, as long as we're talking about working with actors, like, especially if I'm shooting a movie handheld and I'm operating myself, It is interesting how sometimes, especially if the director is liking what they're seeing,

the actor doesn't get as much feedback as they want or need. Right. And then they start seeing me as the person who's giving people feedback because I'm telling them, hey, can you actually stand a little bit more over here? Can you look like this? Can you do this? Can you do this? I'm giving them all these micro adjustments.

And they're seeing me give direction to all of my team around me. and the director is just like sitting there loving it at the monitor and so then they start not like trusting the director and they start like being like okay I need Laffer's approval for this shot and it's like honestly I wasn't even paying attention to you like I had so many different things in my mind but I'm like yep it felt right enough and like but the lighting wasn't right and so that's what I remember from this thing so I don't have notes for you

maybe you were great maybe you weren't I need to talk to my Gaffer go talk to your director but you can't usually say it quite that blunt either because you've got to like hold that space that they feel safe in and so it is like figuring out how to like yeah create that space where they they feel held they feel vulnerable like are able to be vulnerable because we're you know they're doing weird intense stuff with a big group of people that they probably barely know around yeah it is it is funny there I do know some non-creative friends of mine who don't who truly just see acting as like make make pretend and it's like it is but in that moment it's real and then they go yeah that's that's bullshit I'm like it's not like that's the only way to make it work is if if they believe it because otherwise you won't believe it when you see like a bad movie it's because the actors didn't give a shit and they didn't believe it at the time yeah it's you know it's

It's a very interesting, I think people in general are not, and maybe this is why actors are seen as being so weird, but people in general are not in touch with their feelings. They're not, you know, well adjusted. So the idea of being able to access various emotions or feelings or whatever seems either creepy or fake or whatever and not an example of someone who's, is potentially well adjusted, potentially, and just able to, and just knows where those emotions exist in their own psyche or whatever. Yeah. That's not really a question.

No, but I guess the other thing it made me think about is like, yes, it's like they're able to tap into all those things, but it's also the entire, like, it's everybody around them creating the space where they can feel comfortable doing that, but also then bringing those emotions to it out in a visual way, right? That like the costumer is going to put them in a costume that makes you feel those emotions too. Like the gaffer is going to, the gaffer the gaffer the epi are going to create lighting that help you feel those emotions. And ideally all of those things are working together.

And one, creating a safe space where they feel like they can have those emotions. And two, giving you visual cues and representations of what those emotions are in a way that isn't like so heavy-handed that you notice it and you just feels like, oh, that actor gave a really intense beautiful performance. And it's like, yes, they did. Also, you're watching all of the different craft people doing their job and also understanding like, oh, in this scene, this is the emotion or this is the arc of emotions that we're going to go through. And it's not just like, how do I make this lighting look cool? What's the coolest costume I can put them in? Like, sure, there are moments of that but more it's how does this lighting or this costume but express what's going on in this

moment yeah yes you know if you put someone in a dank dark corner and waterboard them they're going to feel an emotion even if it's a safe space you know uh-huh uh-huh um we've talked a bunch on this podcast about how important uh customing and production designer i've interviewed a few amazing um production designers and customers and it really is like I've said it a bunch the DP gets a lot of credit for what the production designer has done oftentimes

yeah and working with a good art team and a good production designer like just makes my job so much easier right that like if I'm not trying if I'm showing off and exploring this cool world that you've created rather than like trying to fight against

the things that don't look the way they should which I've done plenty of both of the facets of the spectrum like that just makes what I do so much more enjoyable and so much easier and so I can just be like oh yeah I can I can just point the camera anywhere in here or I can point the camera in this direction that you have planned that this is the direction to point in and it's going to just work and so like there actually came a point where like my where I was working on projects they were getting bigger and the my crews were starting to get bigger because people understand like oh lighting in camera like that's important

like whatever the DPS for we're getting that for them um which you know there's a certain amount of that that I'm like I appreciate that I'm happy to take advantage of that but then I also go to a point where I'm like oh I see that you don't value the other departments the same way you value mine and I know how much how important those departments are so they're got to a point where I'm like I actually like if you've got a big enough budget yes get me all these people if you don't have a big enough budget get me this fewer number of people and get me more art people because that is actually going to make my job easier make us work faster make your movie look better more than another person on my team even though you know I might be stretching my team for how big they are so yeah art is huge yeah also I think it's the the department that if I wasn't in camera, if I wasn't a cinematographer, I think it would be art department. I'm glad I'm not. Like, they get run ragged. Like, I have so much respect for them. And I'm just, like, treat your art people well, especially camera people. Like, camera people

who don't appreciate their art people and just, like, harass them or, like, figure, like, they're, yeah, like, I'm mad at those people. And I am very respectful of my art teams and try to make sure that they know it because one like I said probably the department I would be in if I wasn't in camera but more than that I know how much my job changes when I've got a good art team yeah I've said a number of times if it weren't being a cinematographer I'd be in prompts or special effects I got two uh three now friends who um work at legacy effects and like you said they're getting run absolutely right you know like 16 hour days every day in different cities every day the coolest job ever.

Yeah. You know, my buddy made Grogu's ears, you know. Amazing. Did you, did you, I'm just going to shout him out. His name is Carrie Lee. Did you see the, the Obi-Wan show? Just bits of it. I didn't really get into it.

Yeah, I mean, I watched it. But it is okay. But did you see the part where there's like this dinosaur bounty hunter chasing Obi-Wan through the, yeah. That's my friend Carrie because they built the suit. based on him and then they couldn't didn't I guess they didn't have enough time to find an actor to like fit in it so they just put him in it and that's the kind of fun shit you can do if you're in the special effects department and also I think that like sometimes you like if you were the person who built it you understand the nuances of what that thing can do and you can bring it to life like nobody else can I worked on a movie with puppets once and mostly the puppeteer was like one of the main people who had built it. And then one day he wasn't available

and they had to bring in this other puppeteer and like it just didn't have life in it. Like it didn't, he didn't understand the nuances that this creator like could just like the way that he could move his body to make this thing come to life. The Jim Henson effect. Yeah.

Jumping more into kind of like cinematography stuff, on this podcast, we talked to Ed about American Siege, which you shot. but recently you helped shoot a movie that I also helped work on well not not one of your movies but the third one uh the the old detective night trilogy yes i assume you got that gig because you shot american siege yeah um so definitely got the detective night movies because of american siege but i guess the like really quickly ed and i feel like we have a good origin story um okay go ahead which is that we uh we hated each other

when we first met. Awesome. I was shooting his buddy's music video. It was just like super low budget. It was right when I first moved to LA. I was just taking any random thing I could find. Ed was shooting commercials and weird little music videos and stuff at the time. And so he just came to help his buddy out for the day.

And I thought, like, who is this asshole? Like, he's arrogant. He doesn't know his place. Like, this isn't his music video. And he sees me, like, running around with, you know, Home Depot lights with gel's gaff tape to them without a real crew, like just chicken with my head cut off. And he's like, who is this DP? Like, my buddy's video is going to look terrible. Like, this person doesn't know what they're doing.

Six months later, he's looking over his buddy's shoulder as he's editing. And he's like, holy shit. Like, I saw what that looked like on set. This person isn't incompetent. They're a wizard. Right, right. Um, and so he gets my info from his buddy and reaches out to me and is like, hey, like, I'd be interested in shooting a project with you. Can I send you my script? And I think, well, he was kind of a douche, but, you know, I, I only met him the once. Like, maybe he was just having a bad day. Like, I'll read his script. And I read the script. I'm like, okay, there's something interesting going on here. Like, I'm not ready to commit to it, but I'm ready to have coffee. And so I'm like, hey, let's meet up. Let's talk about your movie. He texts me back. He's like, can you go to Iceland with me this weekend to shoot a, whiskey commercial and I'm like paid trip to Iceland with an asshole sure I'm

down so we go to Iceland and really hit it off just have a blast just traveling around Iceland just getting gorgeous shots of people sharing whiskey and yeah understand that like you know we we both maybe had different types of armor that the other one couldn't see through on that first day and so yeah so glad that we gave each other a second chance and it has led to a relationship full of crazy adventures like we shot a bunch of a bunch of these just yeah branded content music videos whatever random thing whatever random gigs ed was getting at the time and then as he started uh coming up into features eventually

he was able to bring me along on some of those because he knew we worked well together and American Seed was the first one that we really shot the whole thing together and it was, yeah, a really fun special project crazy, you know, like we, we prepped it for like a week and a half and then shot it in like

eight days. Yeah, yeah, I think you remember telling me that. And it's a first one of the action movie. Like, you know, like it it's insane that it's even a movie. Thank you. And yeah, we I had a blast doing it, like got a

work with some great friends, got to make some new friends, and it, yeah, it was, it was awesome. But then it led to us getting to do the Nike movies. And like, each time we did another one of these movies, we're like, okay, let's push ourselves. Let's, we know that we can make these crazy movies. We know we can do it. We could just use our old formula that worked for us last time but like that isn't that interesting like let's let's that first one it's like okay the only way we think

we can get through this is to shoot it all handheld so let's shoot it all handheld and it looked great it fit the story like we made like part of I think figuring out the visual look of a movie half of it is like okay what does this story need what should it be

and then half of it's like what is the technical stuff the budgets whatever sort of technical requirements you've got like what are those and how do you marry those two things together how do you make it so that the things you have to do technically also are aesthetic choices that work um when you've made the rent rules for that universe that you're playing in um yeah and so for the detective night movies we're like okay we don't want to just shoot this all handheld we're going to get sedicam we're going to get dollies, we're going to get, shoot it mostly on sticks and little sliders and just, you know,

figuring out, like, how do we make that shit? How do we still shoot a movie in way too few of days, but don't just rely on the fact that we've got two operators running around with easy rings grabbing the footage really fast. Yeah, because that was actually something I was going to ask was, uh, did, or I guess something I don't know is, so you didn't shoot the third one, right? That was someone else the third detective night movie yeah so um i shot all three of them oh you did oh okay yes i shot all three of them i uh and it's interesting because the third one that came out was the first one in order of shooting it and scripts um oh that makes more sense for my involvement because that shit was forever ago yeah yeah so but we shot them basically back to bat so we shot what you're calling

the third one we shot that one first in New Mexico and then had like two or three weeks off and then flew to Vancouver and shot the second two simultaneously got you okay that makes sense

you with the same crew overlapping but mostly different crews on each so knowing that and knowing like these aren't super high budget you know they're indie budget let's say with a little extra stank on it

but like what are what are some things maybe you learned about getting a high production value out of perhaps limited more limited resources than one might expect yeah I mean I think I think one of the pieces is pushing yourself just a little bit beyond what you know you can do but not so far that it's going to break

right like I feel like each one of those movies so it's like American Siege then the first night movie that we shot and then the other two movies. Like, I think each one of those we pushed a little bit more. I think the other thing, I guess, is just, like, paring it down to what do you actually need? Like, you can't, like, you've got to get enough safeties and enough coverage and enough things to make sure that you aren't completely shooting yourself in.

a foot, but also you can't, you can't overshoot. Right. And I don't have time. Yeah, yeah, you just don't have time. And I think the last thing is on time is just like being decisive, being like, I, we've planned this as much as we can. And now we have to make choices and we have to be able to live with those choices. And we have to do it quickly.

and I think that also comes into trusting your collaborators like on all of those movies there are shots that I never saw until I saw it in the theater or at least a rough cut of it you know because it was just like okay I have camera operators who are talented cinematographers in their own right I can send them off to do this other thing I can trust them to do that because I need to be here focused

on this. And even if that's like the fun and stuff sometimes, right? Like, you know, set Brandon Cox off on the one you're talking about to like hang out of a helicopter and shoot police cars flying around and crash sequences. And it's like, sure, that would be a fun day. But I've got to make sure that I'm taking care of story beats that Ed and I have talked through and that like only I understand. And I can trust that like whatever this car chase sequence is, Like, we, Brandon and I talked through it a fair amount, but I also trusted him to be, make decisions on the fly and get what he gets and go from there. Yeah. So I actually interview him on Saturday.

Oh, very cool. Yeah. Well, say any hi to him for me. He's a great guy. And, yeah, I'm really, like, I've learned a lot from working with him. And, and yeah, again, great. great to have people around you who have your back and who are really good at what they do

because I remember this moment on American Siege where I was just like my mind was being exploded and like pulled in a million different directions I was trying to set up this shot and I'm like it doesn't look good but I don't have like I don't have enough brain cells left right now to know how to solve this problem like I can't move the sun like the sun is where it is

I can't move the sun I don't like the way that this lighting is looking and Brandon's like if it's up my place like you can do whatever you want but if you just bring him around to the other side of the tree

then the sun is where you want it and nobody can tell and I'm just like thank you yep we're going to shoot it like this and it's just like you want collaborators that you know

and it's not like I was going to say you want collaborators who are better know more than what you know. Like, it's not like that was like this thing that is like, oh, I didn't know. You could do that. It was just, I was in a state where my mind was being pulled in too many different directions.

He was operating. And so he didn't have to have as many things in his mind. And he's a DP and he's got my back. And so he's like, hey, Lafrey, let's do it like this if you're cool with that because it'll look better and it'll still work. Yeah. And so you want, you want people around you that have your back. in that sort of way, that they're sometimes noticing and fixing things that you don't even, like, didn't even know needed fixing.

Like, you didn't get to the point where you knew it was a problem and they've already corrected it, or they're coming to you with things where it's like, hey, we've got this idea. And I'm like, either like, no, that's not going to work because this, this and this, or that's amazing. Thank you for moving them around the tree. The Navy SEAL slash self-help guide Jocko Wilnick describes that as detachment. Like sometimes if your heads super deep in a situation, you need to like take a step back, just detach and take a look around. But as you're saying, especially in a, well, I suppose there's nothing more high intensity than war. But on a film set when you have to, you know, think of all those things that once, it is nice to have people who are detached but intelligent.

right next to you to be able to be like your little tertiary brain. Yeah. And it's also just, you know, like sometimes it's my AC, like pointing out that there's a light fogging the lens and offering me a French flag. And I'm just like, yeah, I had been looking at so many other things that I didn't see that this time. You know, and so like, thank you for having my back. Or no, actually, I did see that and I like the feel it's giving me. Yeah. So, yeah, I want a team.

And I think, you know, that actually comes back to something we were talking about briefly before we started recording of this. Like, you want somebody who's going to question you. Like, you want some collaborators who provide a little bit of friction. And I think that's true between, like, the director and the DP. It's also true between me and my crew. And it's like, you don't want a lot of friction. Like, if you've got too much friction, then, like, it's, you're beating each other up and you're not, you're not. be able to be efficient but if you have a little bit of that friction a little bit of like let me

question you on that like can we do it a different way can we do this um one of my favorite memories of that was i was working with this director and he like i lit this scene i was loving it it was this like noir modern noir movie that we were doing um and it or even like a little sci-fi noir kind of thing um it was dark It was moody. It was great. We shot a take. He comes off to me. He's like, I think it's too dark.

I think you went too far. And I'm like, are you sure? I'm like, I think I like it. But also, we can add more fill light to this if that's what you want. He's like, please, I think that's what this needs. And it was like, okay. I'm like, I, you know, you're the boss. I'll do what you want.

And so we shoot the rest of the scene with extra fill. light. And the next morning, I get a message that's like, hey, can you come in to the production office early? And I'm like, oh, shit. Like, what did I do wrong? Am I getting fired today? Like, what's going on here? He comes in and he's got like the dailies pulled up. And he's like, you, like, you shouldn't have done what I said. Like, I was, I was wrong. I was wrong. You should have pushed harder. You shouldn't, you shouldn't always just listen to me. And it was like, oh, okay. Like, thank you for like, I didn't know that I like had that space with you. And it was like this realization of like, oh, like we are all collaborators. We should be providing a certain amount of friction.

And you've got to understand how much friction different people want. Yeah. But it's like there's a reason why I'm the cinematographer and they're. the director and I have like honed my lighting skills for decades. And I know what's going to work. And do I sometimes go too far? Sure. And like sometimes the director will come to me and be like, like, oh, like I think like we need a tweak here.

Like this isn't quite working for me. And I'll be like, okay, what are you thinking? And either they'll give specifics or tell me a direction and I'll then have a conversation about them. And it has to happen quick because you don't have time for long philosophical debates. but it's like you can have a quick friction conversation that ends with like a better film at the end of the day because you're not just blindly either side isn't blindly

just accepting what the other one's giving them and I think that's directors I think that's people on your crew it's like you should all be having like if you've got each other's back and you're providing friction to make the ultimate piece better Like, you want everybody looking out in that sort of way. Yeah. Is there, have you figured out a way to, if you're working with a new director, to figure out how much friction they maybe do or do not want,

or is that more of a thing you kind of learn after a week or so of discussion? Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's one of those, you just have to feel them out. And maybe you don't even know until, you know, the second movie you shoot with them. the second week or whatever it is, how much they really want. But I think you also, like you can get a feel for that in pre-production, right?

Like you get a feel for, like, first, is this a director who wants, like, notes on their script? You know, as like, I'm a storyteller. I see this weird hole. Are we addressing that or are we not worried about it? Or are they the type of director who, like, when you start talking about script and story they're like, please, that's not your

not your lane. The comments. Yeah. Don't change a note. I remember one project that I got let go of in pre-production. I'm like, I didn't, I guess I came on too strong. I thought I was being subtle and we were having a conversation. I didn't need to change your movie.

Like I was just trying to figure out what it was and seeing, you know, but I also think maybe that wasn't a, movie I wanted to shoot that like if it was like some of the things were just like okay like if you don't want that level of subtlety and nuance in your movie like maybe we're making two different types of movies yeah I think it's it's a series of conversations that start with the script and then go into pre-production and then go into talking about visual references and then go into days on set and sometimes that process happens over the course of, you know, a couple of days because that's all you've got. And sometimes that

happens over the course of months or years, especially if you're working with collaborators who've worked with before. Yeah. I did want to ask about lighting, as it is a cinematography podcast. I remember me and Edward talking about an American siege and how the lighting was kind of set, you know, from outside the house and all that. But with, obviously, there's a lot of lot of different scenes in the old, well, especially because it's a trilogy, in the Detective Night films, but do you, can you recall maybe a scene that, um, you had to kind of set up quickly, but you're actually kind of proud of. Uh, and if you could run us through maybe how you lit said scene that people could go look up. Yeah. Let me think about what would be a good,

a good example of that. Of course, like the first ones that are coming to might are the bigger, more complicated ones that we did have a little more time for it. I'm trying to think of like that. Well, we can start there. Yeah, I mean, well, it's like there, there was a junkyard scene in, I guess, the, now like all the titles have changed from what I knew them as. So I'm like, what is it called now? Detective Knight Redemption

the Christmas one in the release order but again the second one but I guess I think of it as the third one because it's the final one in the film because of the way the holidays are structured like they're releasing the first one last oh so the that is the first one in

quote unquote release order like yes Like, there are things in, like, what's his name? One of the characters in the second, what was originally the second movie, ends up in a wheelchair. Like, he gets shot. He ends up in a wheelchair. He's in a wheelchair for the final movie, which the way they're releasing them is the second movie. And so then there's the first movie, which they don't even explain as like a flat,

like is a prequel or anything, but all of a sudden, he's not in a wheelchair. He's just up and walking around, like, everything's normal. distribution is fun yeah yeah all right not your guys's fault anyway yeah that's not your guys's fault uh yeah so anyway in redemption yeah um it was like it was a combination uh so it's like junkyard shootout scene um and it's like we've we've got a snow machine so we've got a snow machine so we've got But, you know, fake snow coming down. We, like, figured out, like, okay, this is, like, we don't really have enough lights to really light this up. Like, we've got a decent amount, but we don't really have enough. And so it's sort of playing with, how do we play with just enough spaces and create enough

pockets? Because it's also realizing, like, we're basically going to get to light this once and then do our tweaks. and we've got to be able to make it work for that. And so I think, I think it was a, I don't remember. I think it was a 4K,

but it might not have been quite that big. Tungsten light that we had like down kind of at one end because that was the world where just past that point, there were no other lights. We needed it, like we just needed some light. and I had my gaffer put it behind this other building kind of coming out

so that if it did poke out it just looked like some sort of practical in the distance like it was far enough away you couldn't tell if it was a street light we could shoot into it if we needed to and it just sort of gave us a general backlight

for that whole like looking that direction and then we hung up a couple of our own practice on the building closer to where we were going to be actually shooting things.

And then it was mostly esteratubes that we put in, like there were this rack of old engines and we just hung up a bunch of tubes in there and I think played with a combination of like shifting

light in different color directions to be able to create contrasts kind of no matter which different direction that we shot. And then being able to just within that space, be able to play and create the shadows that we need by which side we're going to shoot things on and just understanding enough of how that sequence

was going to play out. So, yeah. And then, you know, the snow falling just makes everything look cool and weird. Backwise snow. It looks great. Yeah, yeah. You backlight some snow, put a little orange, put some green on the, the, you know, the hysteria tubes so that it feels fluorescenty. And yeah, just play with some different directions for things.

And again, it's the different departments coming together, right? Like that scene doesn't look as cool. That scene doesn't look as good without the addition of the effects department and the snow. Right. Or locations, for that matter. locations. Yeah, that was a great location. Again, art department didn't have to do a lot there. It was mostly just making a few things safe, telling us where we couldn't go. Yeah. And yeah. So were there different, I know you said you were trying to push yourself with each successive film, but did that kind of reach its way into creating different lighting ethos for each film? Or did you, were you trying to kind of keep a consistent? look between the three. Yeah, I mean, I think it was a mix between both.

And I think one of the, one of the pieces where I'm like, okay, I don't, I don't just want all these to look exactly the same. I do want to have some fun, try different things, do different things, you know, like, I think to a certain extent, every movie should be its own little sandbox that you get to play in, and you should get to try new things. And I know that I've got certain stylistic things that I lean into. and so sometimes it's like okay that's just part of who I am

that's part of what I like and also part of that is like okay and let's sometimes play against that like if the movie calls for it so I think we just sort of general like we want this moody we want mixing of color temperatures we will like I guess maybe

back to your point of like things that make it make you be able to work fast and trying to make it look good if you embrace the idea that there's mixing of color temperatures then when you've got lights and practicals that are mixing

of color temperatures, that is stylistic. Right. And so you don't have to fight against that. You don't have to change out all of these bulbs. You don't, and it feels right, as long as you push that far enough that it doesn't feel like a mistake the few times that it happens. Right.

So that's probably part of the like trying to make things happen quickly and, you know, have it look good. And so I think for the first one, I also tried to lean into a little bit of, like, what the holidays were. The first one, I think we were maybe going a little more neutral, less extreme on the colors, and playing with, you know,

symbols of red, white, and blue because it's sent around the 4th of July and stuff like that. And also mixing of, like, neutral colored keys with a colored edge light to be able to have that idea that this world isn't pure and this world has mixing of things. And part of that, you know, like, I think if you, like, nobody thinks about the weird conversations that we have with the director or whoever that is like, oh, this is the deeper meaning behind it. And to a certain extent, that's fine.

And it doesn't mean anything. And nobody's going to guess the exact things that went through our heads, probably. But if you give yourself a set of rules, based on what is the story you're trying to tell, that's going to give you one, like, speed when you're on set to be like, okay, no, this fits in that rule, that doesn't fit in that rule.

This fits in that rule that doesn't. And it also then gives you more of a cohesive look because at some point there's an infinite number of choices you can make on any of how to shoot any movie. And so I think being able to have, like, being able to have that set of rules that you established and have that be based on something whatever that is almost doesn't matter

as long as it makes sense to you and the movie and the director so it's like on the second one it was set around Halloween so we went more for like splashes of purple and more orange and then red and green for the last one because it was set around Christmas

and so each one of those we just played like we had more or less the same lighting style, but then played with different color tones. And mostly that was, like, I think really worked well for them. I also, like, know that there were one or two times where because we were shooting those last two movies simultaneously, I was in the middle of shooting a scene,

and I realized I was lighting the wrong holiday. Right. Like, I'm like, which movie assistant? Like, production design? I throw a bunch, bunch of Christmas lights in this. the background. And I'm like, as we're shooting it, I'm like, wait, this is the Halloween movie. Well, some people decorate for Christmas early. Oh, well. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, actually, that brings up a good, uh, I was going to ask this slightly later, but how, um, nope, I'm going to ask

you later. Uh, you had mentioned, um, having kind of a personal style. Are you able to articulate what that is, or is that more of a feeling thing? I think it's probably more of a, of a feeling and I think it's just like one of those things that you develop over years of doing it and some of it

like some pieces of it are I suppose just like things that kind of like if you say them out loud it's like well yeah but everybody does that but everybody does it to different levels right that like one of the things

that I really like in life thing is an offside key. And it's like, well, yeah, but everybody does an offside key, like, is that saying anything? And I'm like, well, but I think there's a way that, like, is what I like an offside key to look like. And you probably get a sense of that watching a series of my movies that I don't even exactly know how to articulate.

Right. And I guess because of that, I think when I'm talking to either a director or a gaffer, I like to talk through images as much as possible. So like for each one of these detective night movies, like I pulled a big collection of stills, put them in a PDF and first went to the director and be like, okay, Ed, like, is this, does this, is this our movie? Does this feel good to you? What things should we pull from this? What things should we be cut? And then I'll send that off to the gaffer and be like, okay, this is, this is what we're going for. This is what I want to try to achieve. And maybe also have some. notes on there of like when I show you this image this is what I mean by this image like I'm talking about the edge light that's going on here I'm talking about the mixing of color temperatures that's going on here gotcha yeah you'd mention that a lot are some people especially folks who come from like the older film world very afraid of mixing color temperatures do

not want to do it I love it that that I guess probably is another piece of my style like I I think, you know, I think that's really interesting. I think there's a lot you can do with playing with color in a movie. And sure, there are times when I'm like, no, this one, this needs to be neutral. Like this is either a scene or a moment or a movie where it's like, that isn't the thing I will want to play with here. And sometimes that's to push myself. Sometimes it's like, I know that that's going to go to. Let me try something different and see what interesting things come out of it.

But more often than not, I like mixing of color temperatures. And one of the things, I was working on a project in China a few years ago, and the director and I would just have these long walks around Beijing, and we wouldn't notice things about just the natural lighting there. And I started to realize that, like, different cities have different mixes of light. like and so i think if you notice what those things are and you play into that that can then like make you feel like you're in that city yeah um and so when we've had that realization that it's like okay Beijing has this certain set of colors to it like let's use those in our

in our movie um let's let's have that because we want Beijing to be like, part of the character of this piece. And I think that's true. Like, after having that realization, whenever I'm traveling in a new city, I kind of look around and notice, like, what are the, like, what are the things about this city and the color of the light here? And one of the things that I've always felt about L.A.,

but it's becoming more so is that, like, one of the interesting directions that light goes in L.A. is purple, which I love purple. I thought you were going to talk about all the shitty LED streetlights, but yeah, no, you're right. It used to be orange, and now it's purple. Now it's purple. And so I first noticed it that sometimes the sky actually turns like this weird purple

color because of the light bouncing up from the city and the way the clouds work and all of the pollution and whatever it is. Right. It's this kind of interesting purple thing. But then in the last six months, the type of LEDs that they've been using in LA, they fail purple. Like there's this thing that you see driving around LA in the last six months of like city streetlights failing in this direction, like this weird purple color. And I'm like, I am excited to shoot a movie set in L.A. and play with that idea in this moment of like, oh, this is going to be one of the interesting iconic L.A. looks, I think.

And I hope that I'm one of the people who gets to do that. I'm sure other people will play with that as well. But, yeah. Well, and you're totally right. Because, like, if you look at movies before the LED adoption, so let's say, like, 2006, I want to say it was when they started doing that, your collateral, your fight club, whatever, even though fight clubs technically, not strictly in L.A., but it's orange and green because everything was fluorescent or the high-pressure sodium. And I think a lot of, you know, obviously tons of towns across America use that high price. I miss that orange. The orange feels like, I don't know if it makes people feel like they're in danger, but it feels very homey to me.

Yeah. And the LEDs do not. The LEDs feel like I'm in a prison yard. I did. That's the other thing. I'm such a nerd. I wish they would make a small color meter. that I can carry around

and like you know when you're in those scenarios like meter it and be able to save like the spectral output and like the X Y coordinates and everything because when I got my color meter Lord knows I was running up and down the street just anything just that's what the 711 is that's what you know

this is what sun in the shade is because I didn't know you I've said this a million times but like you set an LED 5600 is it you know are you not only that but like is this window light is that 56 is it is it 43? Who fuck knows?

Yeah. And also like as a different cloud rolls in or like the light now is bouncing off the building next to you and coming through, like all of those things are going to change it moment to moment. Yeah, X, Y coordinates are the fucking greatest thing with LEDs. Oh, before I moved on to colorists. When you're mixed, this is something I've wanted to ask a lot of DPs, but a lot of them don't focus on mixing color temps. apparently as you do.

Are you just setting your camera to whatever, 27 or 56? Or are you moving it around a lot to play with those mixed color temperatures? How are you including the camera in the mixing of color temperatures? Great question. I feel like I do play with the color temperature on the camera as well. Because I think also, you know, again, a lot of these. movies are in this range where I have to move fast and I have to take advantage of what's already there. And so I think maybe the first step is what do I want the daylight or the

practicals to do in camera? And then how do I add, like how does that then affect what I want the lights that I'm bringing in with artificially created color to do? And so, like there are definitely times when I will just be like yeah I'm I'm outside it's daytime I'm going for 56 unless that unless I look at a monitor and I'm like okay that looks really weird today like you know I need this warm or like actually one of the things we wanted uh with again how do you to refer to him the the detective night would be that we sought in uh in New Mexico that takes place at 4th of July

we wanted that to have a warmer look so I was white balancing even for the outside scenes in a way that it was going to make the outside just warmer like it wasn't making daylight neutral I don't remember right now what that color temperature was

but something above 56 right and so I'll do that and figure that out on a movie and then just sort of be like okay, this is where I like to play. I think that generally, if I'm in

if I'm doing like a night scene and I want to really play with the color temperatures, I'm probably going to start by going somewhere in the 42 to 47 range.

That to me generally feels like where I want it, it means that whatever blue stuff I've got isn't going crazy blue and my warm tones are going more in the warm direction and it again depends on the film how far I want to

take that and then whatever I decide on the camera then I'll express that to the gaffer and be like okay whatever neutral stuff we want in this scene we'll go for this you know let's say I went for 4,700 it's like set them anytime we want neutral light, we'll go with 47,

and then anything beyond that, we start to play with. Gotcha. So, but it definitely starts with figuring out where my camera is going to be set. I also recently on the movies up in Canada was the first time I got to work with the IT who was an on-site colorist. So that was an amazing luxury and just added a whole other layer to that. So I was working with my camera team to set, like, okay, what do I want the white balance to be? But then also each scene we were creating a little look for.

And so after, you know, a couple of days, you knew like, okay, this is for the Christmas movie. I'm going to add this greener lutt. This is for the Halloween movie. I'm going to add this warmer lutt. And we could then tweak those scene to scene. and that was a really cool experience to be able to be like, okay, I can see like not just creating a lot

ahead of time and being able to use that. Like, that's a great tool. I love that we can do that. But here, like, scene to scene, I can be like, okay, in this particular space, I want more green in this than we were playing with in other spaces. And I will do some of that

by making my lights green, but I'll also do some of that in changing, you know, essentially my wipe balance, but in the form of a lot that we add to the camera. And so, yeah, that's a cool new thing that we didn't have before. Although it actually reminds me one of the earliest ways that I played around with this when I was, you know, a kid in film school, just trying weird things.

It is I would get different lighting gels and white balance through the lighting gel. To be able to, like before, you know, when it was hard to control cameras and definitely hard to like mix green or magenta in or whatever I would use the opposite of whatever I wanted and white balance through that to see what I could get as far as a white balance or use colored cards to white balance on. Yeah people the younger folks won't know that back in the day we had day we had outside inside and then preset. Yeah. And so the only way to really control anything was to attempt to white balance off of various different colored cards or like go outside, white balance come back inside to make everything look orange or whatever, you know, whatever you're

trying to do. It was harder. It was way harder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am very grateful for all the modern tools. I think I'm also grateful that I came up through this weird or scrappier, more, you know, I don't want to call it more creative because I feel like that's the wrong way, This more, hands-on, homemade, less, like, I honestly don't care about all the numbers, right? Like, you're talking about a light meter or a color temperature meter. And I'm like, that actually isn't that interesting to me. Like, I understand how some people would be like, yes, I want this so much. And for me, it's like, I want to mix.

It's more like painting, I guess, where it's like, I want to mix the light back and forth till it feels right. And I've got a sense of what that is. And so I can do it pretty quickly. But it's like, no, dial that down, dial it. Okay, that was good. And so I think maybe that's where having the onset colorist felt really great, too, of like, oh, you're able to be that next layer that sometimes I get and sometimes I don't get when I'm, you know, finishing a movie, whether or not I'm brought in for color.

but we can make those choices right now and know how this whole scene is going to look and be able to be like, okay, yeah, I don't need to dial in as much green into these lights as I thought I did because we're bringing some of that, we're bringing, you know, 5% of that in in the Lut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think it is like painting for me.

That, I mean, that's definitely like, I kind of wish I was more like that. I wish I had more of a feel for it. I'm very much like a, like I said, a hyper nerd. I'm always like, uh, is that, is it correct? I don't care if it feels correct. I need, which is the opposite of filmmaking. A filmmaking is 80% feel.

Um, there is no technically correct as much as we would all wish there was. Um, I did want to, this is apropos of nothing actually before. I've kept you a little too long, so I'll let you go here in a second. But I did want to ask because we were talking about not only the onset DIT being. a second set of eyes and opening out and stuff, but earlier when we were to talk about having like a 30,000 foot view of stuff, have you heard of the frame I.O camera to cloud stuff?

Oh, yes. Where after you rip off a clip, it goes straight to the editor. Yep. It's the coolest, it's the coolest thing I've seen in years. And I got to review a couple of devices and like, talk about having a second set of eyes.

Like, your editor can just be in the official editing suite and could just like call you and be like, hey, that was out of focus. You should reshoot that or whatever. You know, they, they, and they're so detached that they can just objectively look at everything and be like, you missed a shot or whatever while you guys are all deep in it.

You know, I think that technology is going to get really, there's been different versions of it, you know, with picks and cube something or another. But it seems more widely available now with that thing. Yeah. I mean, it definitely. you know like any of these tools like I'm sure that's one of those things that's going to be amazing and so frustrating right to have another set of eyes yeah yeah anytime you get a call from

the editor like not today text me but like you let me know like I guess probably the closest I've had for that is this movie I shot in Colorado last summer where we were just like passing off a drive every night to the editor and we were like we basically the entire movie is set in a tent and so we could like we were in the same locations or the same location and so it's like if there was something that he saw that wasn't working we could actually like try to pick something up right and that was pretty cool to be able to feel that so I can't imagine the thing where it's like oh yeah by the end of our day we already have a rough cut of this scene and we know what's working and we know like oh wait this one moment this isn't going to

this isn't going to cut together and you forgot this thing like actually there's a moment in American siege that where like we just forgot to shoot one of the times that a hand grenade gets thrown and we have this explosion for it and like we've got two different hand grenade moments

and we only have one hand grenade being tossed and we somehow had to like the editor had to hobble together between the different coverage we got of that one toss the ability to have two different moments in the movie. So I can definitely see the value of that. And I think, you know, mostly having more people who care about the movie

looking at the image is actually a great thing. As long as they know their place and they know how to communicate in a helpful way. They know the appropriate amount of friction. Yes, they know the appropriate amount of friction. Well, like I said, I kept you a little long, so we'll let you go. But I have finished the podcast, the same two questions. And this is, every time I do this, it's like always, it's either I'm interviewing someone about a television show so it doesn't quite work or in this case, it's a trilogy.

But if you were to program a double feature for this trilogy, what would be the other film? well what would be the other film that's a great question and i haven't it can compare it can contrast and then i'm like well is there like another trilogy like is there something that would oh yeah huh like assuming that this isn't like quite just a double feature it's like yeah yeah you know, some sort of series kind of thing. A festival. Yeah. The obvious answer is the Die Hard trilogy, but I'll take that off your table.

And that was like, I'm like, it's got to be something. Like, there's one version that is like Bruce Willis and Die Hard and especially because it's a Christmas movie, at least one of ours is. So that probably is the obvious one. I also am like somehow going to like home alone. hell yeah um like somehow like they're like they're like there

I think like the amount that that doesn't take itself seriously and I don't think you should take these movies seriously um and it is like this just sort of wacky premise with cool weird um stunts and action sequences

and just yeah like moments of like okay like what What is going to happen next? And it makes enough sense. It's also set at Christmas. Yeah, I think that's, you know, if it's not diehard, it's home alone. We'll go with home alone because that's the more interesting programming. That's a great answer.

Second question, everyone always asks about what the best piece of advice you ever got is. I want to know what the worst piece of advice whoever got is. Ooh. I'm sure it's not the worst advice. One example is fine, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's that zooms are bad. And the more, like,

oh, the expansion of that, I guess, is, like, there was this, I had a teacher first year of film school who, like, just drilled zooms out of me to this point where I'm like, I, like, they are terrible. they look cheap, it just is this cheesy, terrible thing that video cameras can do. And maybe I did need that advice a little bit then, but I think the way that it was expressed was this like, oh, this is a tool that should not be touched. Right.

And when in reality, every tool has an interesting, like, place. Like, every tool has an interesting place. it has a time it was made for a purpose you can use it for that purpose but probably it's more interesting when you like are subverting it and understand enough of its own purpose and then playing against that a little bit um so i guess maybe the yeah the worst advice is like that anything in itself is truly bad or wrong right or off the table yeah or off the table or shouldn't be considered. And then, like, when a few directors, like, finally started, like, being, like, I think

this needs to be a Zoom shot and I would fight him and I would fight him and then I would see it. And I'm like, oh, wait. Like, actually, there is something interesting here. And maybe especially in a time where we have gotten away from them for a long time, it's time to bring them back. And so there's always going to be a time where something has become overused and it is like, okay I don't need to see another whatever handheld movie is probably one of those right now right I don't need to see another handel and orange uh I don't need to see more teal and orange and then at

some point it's going to be like oh like I really need some teal and orange in my life I really need some handheld I really need some zooms and so like nothing nothing is an absolute there you shouldn't you should you can set rules I think setting rules for a specific movie and deciding it, like, does that fit in this universe for this movie that we're creating? But don't start from a place where, like, anything is specifically bad or off the table. Like, some of the weirdest things end up leading to really interesting looks. And I think that the, like, the filmmakers that we enjoy, whether that's a cinematographer or a director or whoever, are the ones that take risks. You know, the ones that don't just play it safe.

So, yeah. Totally. I also got the Zooms are bad drilled into me. But I think, you know, in the 70s, when Zoom lenses were first coming around is like usable, everyone was using it. You know, anything is film is fashion. David Fincher said that. Film is fashion. And so fashion at the time was Zooms.

And then camcorders got Zoom so they seem cheap. But now that no one's using Zooms, now people go like, oh, that's kind of. cool fucking Tarantino uses them all the time. I was going to tell him he's wrong. Yeah. And maybe sometimes he is. Hard light was out for a long time. Maybe sometimes it isn't the right choice and you just like started using them so much

that you're like, oh, this is, I'm doing this because it's different and we're, and it's like, well, yeah, sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. But yeah, don't just assume, assume it's bad because it got overused at some point or because it does remind you of something. Like maybe the fact that it reminds you. of a camcorder is exactly why you should use it. Like I actually had this weird project

where like we were it was just this weird thing where all of a sudden at the end of the project we were just giving new pages because we had extra time. Okay, sure. We're just like these don't fit in our movie. Like I don't know how these fit.

And so we just started like being as weird and experimental with the way we shot them to the point where like if we just make these bad enough they can't cut them in with the rest of the show. Right. It just wouldn't work. And so we started like, we pulled the zooms out and we did like extreme snap zooms where we'd go from a huge wide. The guy would look into the camera and point and we'd zoom into his face and just like things like that.

And the producer who was giving us the new pages was just eating it up and loving it. Like the crazier we went, the more he loved it. And it did make it in the final thing. or the final project. Wow. It's weird. And we're like, if we knew we can be this weird from the start, like we would have done so much weirder or crazier shit.

And it's like, oh yeah, sometimes you just need to push things and do things you think you're bad, are bad to be like, that's kind of cool. That's working for this thing. And it's like, what is this thing? This thing is really weird. And so then when we worked with that producer again, we like from the get-go are like,

like whatever weird crazy shit we can think up like we can do um like let's let's go weird let's break rules let's try things that other people wouldn't allow us to because when we tried to mess up by doing that he loved it so this is the sandbox where we can break whatever rules and try things that we don't think would work because we have permission um so i guess also maybe just take that permission and try weird stuff yeah dude well uh like i said i got to let you go but uh that was a fantastic conversation and uh the movies i have not seen yet so i can't say it look great but from what i saw from the clips that i had to copy or uh match that looked pretty good thank you and uh yeah yeah i'm very happy with the way they came out looking um and yeah they're they're fun cheesy wild

rides. Hell yeah. You know, we light a Christmas tree on fire in one. Yeah. Perfect. I want to take credit, that was my idea. I was walking around Vancouver and I'm like seeing all these Christmas trees out there. I'm like, what if we light a Christmas tree on fire?

What if we burn this motherfucker to the ground? We had enough pre-reproduction time for the FX department to build us a Christmas tree that we could light on fire. Hell yeah. So, yeah, you never know what weird little idea is going to pop into your head and you're like, okay, yeah, go with that. Awesome. Well, stay in touch, man. I'm sure I'll see you around at some point. Likewise. It's been a great chatting with you. I'm excited to be part of the show. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition.

Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F at Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Videocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot. respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.