Frame & Reference Podcast - 87: "Is There Anybody Out There?" DP Annemarie Lean-Vercoe

Episode Date: March 11, 2023

On this weeks episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Annemarie Lean-Vercoe about the Sundance film "Is There Anybody Out There?" Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 87 with Anne-Marie Lean Verko, DP of the documentary, Is There Anybody Out There, which recently premiered at Sundance. Enjoy. So I imagine being on the shoot, you haven't been watching anything recently, if you had time? I have watched a few things. I'm on the panel, Thor Bafta. Oh, okay.

So I did some intensive watching over the Christmas holidays, and you get some select amount of films to watch initially. And I managed to watch all of those and a couple extra. But, yeah, it would be like, okay, another one now. I've got to watch this one. I've got to five days and I've got to get eight films and, you know, it's counting down. So I have watched a few things, which, yeah, it's been really interesting, actually, going, right, must watch something.

Yes. I wouldn't necessarily choose it, but it was good. That's been the nice thing about doing this is, you know, especially with, like, Sundance, I get 15 screeners of things that I wouldn't necessarily have, like, I guess, chosen to see or even been able. And so I'm fed all these really interesting documentaries or shorts or whatever. So that's been cool. Anything stand out to you in the? Yeah, I watched something called EO, which is a Polish film.

I think it's got through, actually. I forget the director's name who's established. But it was really interestingly filmed. It was kind of the story of this donkey kind of, kind of. getting taken away from a circus and then this different journey, but they had, it was really unusually filmed and had some really interesting ways of showing the perspective of donkey that was, you know, like a drone and then color. And so it was one of those ones. You're like, wow, I did not expect this to be how it is. And there's some really creative

decisions going on in it, which were really exciting. I hadn't seen before. I mean, it's a narrative? Yeah. Yeah. the narrative project. It's the initials, EO. It's, I feel like maybe I've heard that in the wind, but I am noticing, I'll have to look it up. I've noticed there's a lot of, you know, like last season there was a lot of talk of like, oh man, everything's blockbusters or like super indies. And now I'm starting to cautiously be optimistic about how many interesting, I don't want to say boundary pushing, because that's kind of silly. But like,

different people are starting to make different things again you know it's starting to kind of feel like the 90s again yeah yeah and another one was um the quiet girl an irish film that i know the cinematographer actually and it's got through i think it's nominated for an oscar as well and it's it's fantastic it's so kind of pure and beautifully crafted and all of the elements have just come together to make this perfect film and you know it's one of those ones you're just like oh everything's come together performance lighting camera work production design editing I mean everyone I can't name it but it's just yeah one of those ones where you're like oh I wish I could have made that or been part of that you know it's so good it always I find that

I do love seeing those films are like I should have been there for no reason other than in my passion, you know? Yeah, yeah, no. Anything that Germo del Toro makes, I wish I could just like sit in on, because obviously writing is great, his direction is great, but all the production design and work that goes into like props

and stuff on those films, like the Hellboy movies and stuff, as, you know, pop as that is, but like so invigorating to watch. Yeah, and creating. Just really, yeah, I love watching the behind the sort of scenes, like, EPK stuff of those films. Like, oh, wow, I get that, so they did it. Yeah.

I got to say, that's actually a good question for you. Because, like, I, you know, being a child of the 90s, kind of my film school was EPKs and special features and stuff. I know you have a pretty extensive education. You have an MA in cinematography, right, or filmmaking? Yeah, I went to the National Film School in the UK and graduated in 2003. And, yeah, I did a degree course before that as well. But my kind of way in was through Art College doing a foundation art course. and I'd always had an interest in photography

because my father's a yachting photographer. I'm not like such a yachting person, but I always enjoyed the visual side of things. And yeah, I suppose it piqued my interest from a young age. I eventually was allowed to use his darkroom and, you know, hold his camera and, you know, try out stuff. So it definitely gave me an opportunity. even though it was very different discipline because his, you know, his work was very defined

and about kind of yachts and racing and then bigger boats eventually and all of that. Whereas mine is, you know, I'm so into the narrative. That's really what drives me, his narrative work, whether that be documentary or fiction. Yeah. I ask two questions now. But did you also find that, like, were you kind of a DVD, special features person or were you more kind of in the academic? Because I feel like that was a very like indie punk rock kind of thing

to like learn from Michelle Gondry and and Spike Jones and all that kind of thing. Gondry DVDs and I actually just handed it to a young woman who's interesting film. I was like here, here's some DVDs. Do you know what they are? Anyway

have a look at this Michelle Gondry and yeah. Chris Cunningham. Yeah, that triple set It was just like, look at the movies. These are really interesting. So, yeah, I'm definitely that person. I've had that triple set for a while, but I just found, I thought that was it.

But there's actually a Mark Romeneck DVD as well as a fourth. Oh, wow. Just picked that up from a library. Like, they were selling stuff. And I saw that. And I was like, oh, yep, that's mine. I didn't know. I had no idea.

Great. So I'll have to look out for that. was there any uh any of those that kind of sparked your interest because for me it was definitely like the matrix those that 12 hour lord of the rings behind the scenes like there was definitely something like that for sure i mean i was already um where was i when that was out i was definitely within the film school system already so it was just sort of extra knowledge to me but yes the Lord of the Rings trilogy that the DVD extras on that were just astronomical. It was like, you know, you could just plan your whole weekend just watching those.

Yeah, the, I feel like it was, especially because that was the first, although I shouldn't say the first. I was just last season I was talking to Ari Wegener and, um, oh, I'm blanking on his name, the production designer for Empower the Dog. And the production designer, I should remember his name. I'm terrible with names. made the first film with the director of Power of the Dog, the first film in New Zealand. And then there was a couple, and then he did Lord of the Rings.

I mean, yeah, it's incredible what that film industry. The journey that it's had, it's, yeah, yeah, I think a great place to be when those are being made because so many people are involved. Even I've got relatives there and even friends of the family and stuff but like, yeah, I worked on it. Like, I think most of New Zealand worked on.

Either worked on it or was in it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they were magnificent. Yeah. Oh, but the, I feel like the special features on those extended DVDs are like kind of a documentary, a large docu-series that could have been on discovery or whatever about the film industry. New Zealand. It just happened to be about a series of films. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah,

they're a brilliant source of information as well. I just remember seeing the grading that they used on it going, oh, wow. And then, you know, eventually I was using the same kind of packages. And I was like, oh, this is the stuff that they used, you know. So that was exciting. Again, going back to me being a super nerd, one thing that I was just blew my mind about those was the idea of using power windows and I think they're using baselight at the time but in resolve you know just being able to put a window on something

they're like we can change the color of the grass and I was like you can what yeah absolutely absolutely I think the other film that oh brother where art there was the first one that was just like oh wow it didn't look like that and they just did you know it was

yeah one of those who are like wow that's so cool and now we take it off the front of it It is interesting how, you know, especially going to film school, especially shooting on film, it was like, oh, the look is permanently imbibed. That's not the right word. Yeah, just baked into the film. And so what you got was what you got. And now the imaging pipeline for any cinematographer has, as I've said before, one foot squarely in post and one foot squarely in production.

And you kind of have to have both brains now. It's not like a, you know, that film or digital conversation is kind of out the window at this point. You can choose one, but for the majority of us, you have to have this kind of back-end knowledge of the color pipeline. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of where you want to go, because there's so many options. And I think for me, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm very much driven by. narrative. So I haven't really done anything that's extreme in that way, I think, because a lot of

the work I've done is either documentary or, I suppose, not so genre heavy. It's been more naturalistic. And where I push the colours, it's sort of interesting because I maybe just do it in a subtle way, so I'm bringing green into midtones or, you know, changing the highlights to certain colors or that kind of thing where the average person would not notice, but anyone who works in our industry would be like, oh, oh, okay, you've done that. You know, so it's, I just love that way that you can manipulate the image without people really even realising. Are you, are you familiar with Steve Yedlin and his like hyper nerdy sort of dissertations

he's got on his website? Oh, no, I'm not. Send it with the other list of things. I mean sometimes it does feel like he's using words that are inaccessible like he intentionally kind of obfuscates what he's doing which I really would like to get him on this podcast to ask like bro can we dumb this down just a little because I want to know but fascinating a couple things he does that are fascinating one talking about how acquisition format is basically irrelevant now that that back end pipeline exists. So he has like a he has a comparison that he shot in his house, I think, or the ASC clubhouse maybe, between IMAX, 35 millimeter 16 and Alexa. And after he's done doing display prep, as he calls it, they all look the same. I mean, exactly the same. And he's like, there's no, we don't need to have this conversation.

Like it's workflow. It has nothing to do with the camera. I'm like, that's compelling if I understood half of it. Wow. Yeah, that sounds very interesting. I think, yeah, I had a really interesting tutor at film school who sadly just recently passed away. It was Brian Tovano, who fantastic DOP, who shot Shallow Grave and train spotting and many other brilliant films. And he was very, I think what he insisted. still in us at National Film School was, you know, it can look this, it can look that, but unless you've got a handle on what your intention is, what message you're trying to convey, what is the story? He's like, it's meaningless otherwise. And so he was, you know, he was quite curious because mini-d-V was just starting to come out and he was like,

oh, yeah, he was always interested in the new technology, but not because just because of it, but just go, oh, how can I get my hands on it? How can I use it? What would it do to my storytelling if I use that? Oh, that's a small camera. So that's brilliant. So I could get it in this tiny place. So, you know, so it's, I think what I took from that is I sort of don't, you know,

I work on things where it's, you know, large crews to me and one director or, you know, hence the film that's at Sundance is the documentary is there anybody out there and that was just so compact as a shooting package and so intimate and so sort of necessary

to kind of just be present and you know I was doing the sound as well that it's sort of interesting how ultimately you can sort of grow your package or shrink it but you're always doing the same thing, you're always going okay I need to get to that connection that's read of what is trying to be conveyed and somehow translate that in a visual

way and you know what have I got in my arsenal for this and it you know every job is different and that is what I really took away from my kind of MA if you like which which means that I'm always interested in what the story is and therefore I'll go for a project because of that. I'm not about necessarily. I mean, you always have many reasons of why you choose a project, but I suppose that's why I'm still doing quite a variety of work, from bigger projects to smaller projects, from TV to low-budget feature, to documentaries, to drama docs, to all of these things. And I think that, you know, reflecting on it, all that is definitely the thread. So it's really interesting when you hear about other DPs going, look,

look, here's your beginning and here's your end. And how are you going to make that sort of, I suppose, how's that passed through you and what's your personal touch on it? What have you given to the process? Yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of interesting. It makes you really realize the whole nature of why you choose things and how you collaborate and where you start and where you end.

Yeah. Yeah, well, and just the, I think being untethered from the equipment, realizing that, like, it literally, it used to just be like, oh, it's kind of a tool. But, like, even in the mini-d-v days, I remember when 28 days later came out, that was, like, permission for all. I was in film school at the time. And that gave us, like, permission to use the equipment we had. Whereas before, we were like, oh, we got to afford, we at least got to afford a 16-millimeter setup. up we got to raise 15 grand to shoot this and he was like no can in xl 2 xl 1 at the time he's like it's fine we can we can buy 11 of those and shoot you know the the bridge in london deserted for 10

minutes at a time i was like hell yeah man like that was that was a very freeing moment it revolutionized it and i think you know there's it's amazing how much change has happened just within 10 years really but that was the beginning what is it 20 years ago now 15 or so 2006 that was you know yeah yeah and he just go wow you've the industry has really evolved since then and the fact that you know they you know on the shoot I'm on at the moment you got your A and your B camera which I've got Alex's and then the C camera there's a GH5 and your D camera is an iPhone it's like yeah who would have thought that that long ago, you know, and that's very normal.

Well, that's actually surprising. I very rarely hear of Panasonic mirrorless cameras getting deployed. You hear a lot of Canon, obviously a lot of Sony. But GH5 is, that's a cool, again, accessible unit to me matching to the Alexa. Yeah, it was a grader that I worked with who was like, yeah, it's great. it matches the sensor really well and if you've got some shots where um you know you need a small camera or i think i was doing something with horses and it was like okay just bun that on a little gimbal and it was great you know and you could just try out stuff and some of it worked and some

it didn't you know but you know i've got various lenses as well that i've used with it and that that's actually been my second camera for some drama dot matching to the a camera and we just stuck, I know, I've got a 35 micropose adapter so I could just put my super speeds on it, you know, so it was like, okay, cool, just do that. So yeah, it's, and I shot a whole short film actually on the previous Panasonic in Australia. And that was a kind of ad hoc film with a director. I was like, I'm going out to Australia. Do you want me to take some GVs for you? Because I know you've got this Australian project. And she ended up just coming out with me, I'm going, let's just film, shall we?

So we did, we did it with us in the outback, and we rented a couple of, I don't know what lenses they were, but there was something like, I don't know, Zice or something like that. And we just had two lenses of 50 and 100. And we were in this outback. So it really didn't matter, the crop factor. It was like, wow, okay, we've got a really film it, look. I can be quite a long way away from the actor.

and you get some great shots and great texture. So, yeah, that was right in 2010, I think. So, yeah, it's kind of amazing what you can just, yeah, pick up and go, right, let's do something. Let's be improvisational. Let's just try it out. Yeah. That was the London Film Festival.

I was like, that was just a whim, but we did something really interesting out of it. and, yeah, learnt more and, you know, evolved up our craft, I suppose. So, yeah, it is amazing when you look back and you go, wow, I couldn't even dream of doing that before. It was always like, okay, where can we get a camera from? Oh, let's get some film. And, you know, even in the, even in the, when the 5D Mark 2 came out back in the day, that was like the only camera.

college had besides, like, DVX 100s. Yeah. But they had one of them. And so, like, if, you know, basically my whole class, it was a small film school at the time, you know, we'd all have to fight over it. And then, of course, whoever was like, the most brilliant writer was like, oh, because everyone directed their own stuff, you know. So, like, whoever was like the best writer, like the coolest would end up with the

5D and the rest of us would be like, all right, well, DVX, we're going to zoom in and stand back. Brilliant. yeah i was talking to the dp of the boys that amazon show and uh he was saying that he brought his personal xt3 the fuji film and he would and he was matching with the venice and he would just be like oh i need a small i need to attach this to a boat and he would just like set it up and all right go brilliant he was using it just to shoot stills and he was like actually this thing films and it looks you can't tell wow he said there's at least one xt3 shot in every episode

wow so yeah it's yeah the sensors for those little cameras incredible now it's like like all of them you like well it can see more than my eye can not totally in film mode but certainly in stills mode that's just strange but cool again very free i did i did actually want to ask uh going back a little bit because you'd mentioned the dark room and i like talking to dPs who have developed their own stuff, mainly because I remember going, again, in college, going to a, uh, taking a film photography course. And it really, um, opened my eyes, not only to exposure and composition, because you were so, you know, limited in your, uh, not options, but like, you know, you only have 36 or 24 shots. Um, but the dark room was such a freeing experience and like, uh, very meditative, you know,

just put in the iPod or whatever and that's how long ago this was there was iPods and but I was wondering what uh what kind of the that experience was like for you shooting and and spending that time in the dark room and if that taught you anything absolutely I mean I think I remember the first photo that I developed I must have been about nine or ten and uh it was a little camera that I had that you either put it on mountain sort of frame or not it was obviously the focal link yeah the focal ink it was mountain so I can't know what the woman in the middle was and then a kind of person so it's like how I that's how I work out what I have to do for focus and it was my cat and my dog very reluctantly sitting on my bed

together and cat was like no I don't want this but I just remember just the magic of being in there and my dad sort of showing me how to do this stuff and then and then just seeing my animals just appear on a piece of paper out of nothing and it was it was very I don't know suddenly I felt like oh wow what have I done here it was definitely the alchemy moment of getting excited and I think the next sort of big project I did or the first big project I did photography wise was later on when I was about 14 15 and I was very well I was really inspired by David Hockney and his sort of photographic hubism influenced work and I did loads and loads of photos of the school cricket pavilion or you know sort of shooting it straight on so it was

all flattened out and again my dad helped me print every single picture and you know even just trying to get each photograph just so that the the exposure was sort of correct, but even though not everything was exactly right, it created this brilliant collage and it was in black and white rather than colour. And I suppose it just, yeah, it was that great thing going, right, this is photography can be art and you can really use it for all of its different sort of textual forms. And I suppose I've always enjoyed that approach to cinematography. cinematography and I think in a way I enjoy matching it up a bit so doing something that's

you know like some of the TV dramas is like well it needs to be silpy and it just needs to have that glossy look and doing that sort of style and then in dispersing things and scenes with some handheld as a bit frenetic and a bit messy and a bit like you know not so carefully um or pristinely crafted but has a different energy. So I think it was Anthony Dodd Mantle as well, who was quite inspiring, the DAP, when he, you know, he always uses millions of different formats and stuff. And he was like, I just treat different digital formats,

just like a different version of a film stock. And that's always stayed with me. So in a way, just kind of going with that and knowing when to choose that. And, you know, I probably haven't had to. had as much kind of exposure to that more recently. I did do a film, what was it, 2018? And it didn't, it took a very, very long time to film

because we had pre-shoots that involved no actors and we were trying to raise money. It was just me and the director going out from Dartmoor, which is like, you know where everyone knows about it because of the hounds of basketball. So it's this sort of wild heathland and it's got and kind of cranks and rocks and stuff. And we just went out and filmed there together with,

I think that was with a G85. No, not a G8. I think that was a canon. And we did various snippets. And then we did some pinhole camera stuff, but on a digital camera and, you know, all sorts of things. And then we eventually got the principal shooting with an mirror, two mirrors.

And it was like, oh, luxury, you know. And then it had a little bit well. And we also shot some film stills as well and just mashed it all up and lots of iPhone footage, early iPhone footage. And it was kind of the great liberating thing about it was we had no money. It was like such a low-budget film.

But we went, okay, we have no money, but we're going to just, as the director said, it's almost like you get a pot and it smashed and then he put it back together again and the whole film was about a family and it trying to sort of find itself and heal itself with all these different memories of how people remembered something and how are they moving forward in the present?

And we did that with the visuals as well and that's probably the last time I've really just gone for it and it was just like, oh, really liberating just to go, no, no, it doesn't matter. This is just literally a mosaic and we're sticking it all back together and it is what it is. we don't have any money and it's kind of mad but yeah enjoyable so i like yeah kind of like to be

able to insert that into my my less sort of experimental work and maybe like glossier tv work with moments of that and i think that's why i also enjoy doing documentary as well because you just have to go with it and you have to get the narrative and that was another massive film school lesson where they just went, well, you might have got a really beautiful shot of the mountain over there, but did you get the actual story of what was going on at the bottom of the mountain?

Even, you know, so get the shot, even if it's not perfect because you haven't got the story otherwise. So, yeah, again, as a cinematographer, it's just makes you just let go of all that. It must be this, it must be beautiful, you know. And sometimes you just got to get it. That reminds me of two things.

One, I was watching this interview with a recording producer, you know, a guy, whatever you call the person who records bands. Oh, yeah. And he was saying, have the mic or have the deck recording before the band walks in the room. Because if you've got Jimmy Page coming in and he just starts goofing off on a guitar, like, plug in the, the first microphone you see, like, patch it in because who cares if it's not perfect? It's Jimmy Page noodling on a guitar. Like, you're going to want, you're going to want it. Who cares if you're not?

Have the right angle, the mic. Yeah, it's just like, no, you've got to have it. Yeah, that's very good, very good analogy. The second thing I think of is like, I've always said that being an editor makes DPs, better DPs, because you start thinking about shot selection what you will and won't use. And like you're saying, like sometimes, well, I guess it's a double-edged sword

because on the one hand you'd be like, well, great, that's a beautiful shot. I know it would only be in the thing for like a second or we don't even need it or whatever. But also if you're editing your own stuff, with less experience, it's very easy to go like, well, that shot's really pretty. I want people to know I got a pretty shot,

you know, instead of feeding the narrative. Yes. Yeah, no, it is a double-edged sword. I know it well and, you know, it's that thing of, I suppose it's that thing that fast TV teaches you. It's like, which moment will you use of the shot? How, you know, where does it need to be right and where can it get away with it? And that's definitely something that I've got better at knowing instinctively and making quick decisions of whether we move on or not onto the next shot.

And, you know, I'm much more well, it's just part of the job. now. So that's the other thing that you, you know, learning. I suppose that's part of knowing what a good DP is of when to go, no, we got it, we got it. And it's the same director's like, no, I only need that bit and that bit. And kind of instinctively knowing, well, they're never going to use that part of the shot. And obviously, if there's any, you know, any question you will, you'll check. He's like, oh, could that be used? So, yeah, it's, it's, Yeah, it's interesting. I wish I was in the edit suite more, but that definitely does help and make it so essential.

And I edit a few things every now and again, but I'm not an editor. But I do appreciate it when I do do it because you never don't learn something. Yeah. One thing about that pressure that you're speaking of, like, fast television or whatever, that Adam Savage of the Mythbusters said that it's always stuck with me is when you when there's restrictions placed upon you, whether they be time or equipment or whatever it may be, it just hacks branches off your decision tree. And so you can see it as a, it's almost better, especially if you're someone with, you know, ADHD or whatever where like it's very easy to

get distracted or hyper-focused on something. It's like, well, restriction can actually make your job easier because you're like, oh, there's only three choices. All right, well, let's go with two, you know. Absolutely. And, yeah, budget in a way, again, it's that thing of like, well, you obviously want to improve your work and you want to get to use more bits of kit and you want to gain more experience in new areas, of course. And, you know, that's what building your career is all about. It's just kind of, I suppose, just realizing, yeah, I can do that. And yeah, I know how I can approach that, even if I haven't done it, but I've done so. like it. But the budget constraints, whatever production you're on, there's always some sort of constraint, even if it's got more money than the other. Every production is always punching above their weight. It's just the fact. So, and even if it's not a money constraint, there's normally a time constraint or you've only got this location for this

amount of time, but you actually need to do more stuff in it and how do you achieve what you need to do. So that's what I was saying to my son actually on the way home from work. I was like, yeah, I had a good morning this morning. We tried something out and it didn't work, but we came up with another solution really quickly and we solved it. And I was like, that's really what my job is all about. It's problem solving. It's not just about knowing how to light. It's about going, okay, how do we get what we need? We're in a location that's not ideal, but it is where we are and this is this is the problem we have to solve today and we're losing the light and we need to shoot some day scene and shoot night for day and so it's all of those things of

when you hurry to just make those decisions super fast and then like that's not working no next idea you know because there's a whole crew around you and they're like okay when are we going to be off this and you know we made the day of all the shots we wanted but it is just like okay yeah that's that's just my job so it is it is very gratifying to uh when faced with those decisions to hit something that like maybe you didn't even think of and it turns out looking really nice and you're like oh yeah yeah putting that one in the back because that's way easier than what i was going to do i mean it's yeah it's it's those it's those things and what's great is that you normally collaborate well certainly you know with the gaffer or with the camera team

I was like, okay, how are we going to get this? And so it's the common brain, isn't it? And, yeah, it's nice because you're just like, okay, we did it, yeah. We can go home now and we can, another day tomorrow with another challenge. But it's, yeah, definitely the job description. Yeah. I did want to touch on earlier when you were talking about building a mosaic as it pertains to this documentary that's in Sundance,

definitely a mosaic film a lot of cell phone footage a lot of old I assume BHS, hiate, something like that footage. Yes, yeah Alice, I'll go footage of when she was young. Yeah, and it's it is a very

it does paint a very interesting picture of the woman. Also, I can't think of the last time I saw a documentary about the person making the documentary because it is just not to be reductive but it's an elaborate diary.

Yes, it's an amazing diary, and I suppose what makes it even more special is, you know, the diary started on a completely different page than it expected to start on. Yeah. So I met Ella when the project was sort of ready to go and was like, right, we're going to go and meet someone. Ella's like been searching for, never met anyone who looks like her in her life, and she just really, really wants to go out there and go, is there anyone else out there like me

with the same disability and so who therefore maybe understands my life experiences but I feel like I'm an alien. You know, she literally just said that is the analogy. That's just it. And when I met her, she was like, so this is a story. But actually, I've just found out I'm pregnant.

I was a complete surprise. So the story started. Some were totally different and was very much near the first filming that I did was her, was just going to an antenatal session at the doctors. So again, that film was very organic because it had to respond to what was going on. And so I suppose it's been interesting thinking about the film and doing a few of the other Sundance Promotion or Q&A questionnaires. and yeah it's like what was the look

and it's like well actually we just sort of dived into following what was going on so there was never really this is how it has to look it was like well this is where I'm at now and I want you to follow it and I saw the footage of Ella when she was young and what was really interesting because her father is a cameraman and he specialised in wildlife stuff So Ella's childhood was very rural and lovely in Northford. And it felt very, I suppose, it felt very in tune to just try and pull out Ella the child with Ella, the woman.

And that was something that Ella and I always came back to, especially as because she was in her new role as a mum. and giving those life lessons to her, some, of like, let's go out, let's go into the park, let's go to the woods, let's do things. So obviously, it being documentary, a lot more footage was actually shot the, you see in the film, because the ratio was high. But I think combined with having seen Ella's previous work, some short films and stuff, I really like the way that she, it was very kind of intimate. but there was a very strong kind of editing and music style

so I think I just felt like, you know, disgust with her loosely, but it just, it sort of grew out of how it happened that she reviewed rushes that I'd shot after the first couple of days and she was like, they're great and didn't really give me a huge amount of sort of directorial feedback. It was more like, let's just keep doing the same

because it felt like I suppose I was on the journey with her and the camera was that other person and yeah it unfolded in a very kind of organic way so yeah it's been a very interesting one in that way because it wasn't like right we're going to do this kind of look we're going to do that but we did know there was to be the video diary element and we also had to carry on shooting during COVID just to show the passing of time

and again it was like well I've got my camera so we had my little camera so it was very yeah I suppose intimate this other way I describe it and also Ella's time once she'd had her son was quite limited to how long she could film and you know been long periods before we did principal film

and going to America and stuff. So it was a bit like, yeah, let's just shoot and grab it. We can't, I couldn't really go. Let's try this and go over here and shoot it. Stand by this window, yeah. Yeah, it was literally like, that's it, she's got to go,

rivers having a meltdown, or, you know, childcare's run out, you know. So, again, it just, it evolved out of the situation because it was, a personal story and yeah within the kind of constraints of real life I suppose

it is I did note that two two well three things but two specific things on that was one it's like three minutes into the movie and it just immediately starts going with like the pre like it it doesn't feel like a fast-paced documentary

but the story starts immediately like there's not there's not a big lead up it's like here she is Anyway. Yeah. I mean, and that's because there really was so much footage that it was a bit like, okay, well, we can't kind of ebb and flow into everything. It is literally like, bam, bam, bam, but even though it keeps you engaged. Yeah, you know, COVID did delay a lot of things and slow things down, obviously.

But that was the second thing, though, was. the COVID thing hits like not halfway through, maybe like a third of the way through. And that shocked me because I was like, I thought you guys shot this last year or something. So when you hear the news like there's 30 cases, so it's a pandemic. And I went, wait, what? We're only in 2019 right now. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of dog to go.

Totally. Totally. So, yeah, it was kind of amazing. You know, Ella, myself and Janine, the producer, were just so amazing. age when we were like, right, we're going to America. It was like, okay, this is, this is what we've been waiting for, but we felt like we had so much of a journey already. And I think it makes the film stronger because our interpersonal relationships were

so deep by then that there was just an ease and it felt connected in that way. So, yeah, it's interesting. I can't really take a step back on it as a, sort of, as I would say, on a shorter drama where, you know, I'm in for a few weeks and then I'm out, it's such a sort of different investment for me. So, yeah, I'm really sad. I couldn't come to Sundance to see it, but I'm very curious to hear how it gets received. There's a moment. I did want to get more into the sort of how you shot it, but I will say in terms of reception, you know, I love the doc, but there was one moment.

that I'm sure everyone will probably mention, but that really kind of not twisted my head, but like solidified her why she was making this? I mean, the documentary is called, is there anyone else out there, right? I intuitively understood

that she was looking for someone like her. But that scene where they're by the fountain, where she's talking to the American mom, and she starts crying because the mom's talking about, oh, we're going to change them, this, that, and the other. and I was and I was like oh I can understand why that would be traumatic I suppose and then it occurred to me like oh no every time she meets someone like that she's further away from finding someone like her because they will have been changed and I was like that is actually fascinating like that to set out to do something and have the sort of normalized solution to be having everyone pulled further away from your goal, I'm sure felt like treading water, or at least sinking to some degree. I suppose what, just from being part of the journey and being, you know, very part of the

viewing it and being able-bodied, it just opened my eyes to how that kind of thought process of oh well you know everyone's saying we can go to the doctors and you know my son can have some surgery it was like there wasn't just not even a conversation about not doing any of that right and that's what made me really value ella's parents and just yeah because you know they were like, well, why should we? And so meeting her doctor from a child was just wonderful because Ella was a bit nervous about meeting him because she had some sort of memories of him examining her,

you know, like kids do. It was like, oh, yeah, and meeting him as an adult was just such an amazing experience. And the fact that he clearly understood her world and was just so kind of very, very interesting. about it all the matter of fact in quite old school. It's even better. It's like, okay, there are

other people out there who have the same values and you know, just to like, why are we even having this conversation if everything's all right? Stiff upper lip and keep on kind of thing. Yeah, and so very kind of old fashioned

in many ways, but so progressive. Compassionate. Yeah, and compassionate. And so, yeah, it's yeah it's just brilliant to see the kind of breadth of people and their experiences because it's not a simple there's no simple anything but what's so amazing about the film is it is very much one person reflecting on their story and going yeah this isn't simple this is very very complex and the more people I meet the more complex it becomes and I don't know I feel

anymore, you know, so I think that's, yeah, the beauty of it, because it's simplistic in every way to everyone's story. Well, and I also feel like it's, maybe this is the wrong analogy, but like the exact opposite of a Michael Moore documentary. Like, it's so, not, I was going to say violently personal, but I don't mean violent. It's so personal, whereas I feel like a lot of documentaries are trying to say, like, here's why you should care or like, here, here's my dissertation. This has felt very much like, again, a diary. It's like this is my, only my experience and I'm not going to attempt to make you, I'm not going to go 90 so you can go 10.

I'm going to go 50. You have to go 50 here. Like this is 100% me. And I found that very compelling as a doc. Yes. Yeah. And I suppose in a way, just going back to kind of cinematography side of it, what was what I wanted to, and I think Ella absolutely wanted.

but we never really expressed verbally, but we just wanted it to be authentic in a way. So therefore the camera work had to feel like it was just part of it. So anything too, I suppose, stylised or to set up, just would not fit for this project. And I did ask the question early on, do you want me to just, is there anything you want me to do that maybe just

I don't know even if it's down to kind of a way that we film GVs or something like that and Ella was like no what you're doing is great so it was as simple as that our conversation it was just like

let's keep doing it you know so really really lovely because it's such a relationship that is built on trust when you work with documentary directors

that when you instantly have that understanding of what's going on and you know Ella's having to have many different caps on in the film yeah I suppose it's just kind of just going okay yeah we're doing this side of it is doing what it needs to do so that was a real um lovely validation of what we were doing and and um how we work together the caps thing is what I wanted to touch on because uh especially a documentary, but a lot of narrative dPs, um, end up directing to some degree, you know, and I was wondering how much of that, it sounds like you were pretty much like silent observer,

but I was wondering like how much guidance you were giving her, because I imagine it's difficult to direct a documentary about yourself and keep any semblance of objectivity. Um, but again, this is so personal. Maybe that didn't matter. But, uh, yeah, I was kind of wondering what that interaction was with you or, uh, what that interaction was with her with you kind of on a business level almost i think you know there were moments where i might just say oh do you want to do this or you've you've done a really interesting like because obviously ella was doing quite a lot of um thoughts to camera that weren't just video

diary but were to camera when i was there and i'd be like what do you think about this so i might just add a couple more questions in or say something that might trigger another thought. So it's not like I'm directing, but it's just like I'm sort of being the viewer. And sometimes I'd be like, well, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but what about this? So that was probably the extent of it, really. So moments here and there peppered. But yeah, just to kind of maybe deepen the thought process or add a different point of view. But, yeah, I'm not sure how much of that ended up there. But I think it's all part of the process, isn't it?

So, yeah. Well, I imagine that was, it had to have been valuable, because, you know, especially having any, like, devil's advocate-style conversations because that opens up the floor to better, articulate your point as a documentarian, you know, to take down opposing views to bolster your own. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose what was so interesting was, I was on part of the journey as well. I did do a little bit of research for the project as well, trying to find someone else out there and yeah priscilla i actually found online from this documentary that

had been made already and so it was sort of it was interesting to be more than a cinematographer because i did some of that work during lockdown so it was like yeah i can do that i'm not working you know and again that's what i do enjoy about still working on specific projects and documentary is that your role is just more all round in many ways that you do have, yeah, different dimensions as a documentary cinematographer as well. So, yeah, it's an interesting career balance and loads of people like, oh, but are you, are you,

you know, do you choose to do this or that? And I'm like, I'm very much, it just depends on what comes along And it comes in peaks and troughs of having done more documentary work to doing more fiction work. And, you know, when a story like Ella's comes along, it's like, and we also lived geographically quite close to each other, it was just like this, yeah, I really, really find this woman super interesting and I want to know more. And after that first meeting, it was like, yeah, very, very pleased that this came my way. I was able to accept it. And, you know, who would have thought that the journey would have lasted that long?

Right. You know, that's the nature of documentaries. Well, and to your point about, you know, being multi-passionate, like I did look up your CV when I was just doing quick. And good heavens, it's a PDF like this long. You've got a very diverse body of work on you, which is super cool to meet people who have. done you know more because a lot of time i just spoke to a guy yesterday who's like squarely

documentary um yeah and and not and not a traditional filmmaker like just is is more about conservation of um the amazon and so that's all he really cares about and so that was very that that like singular passion very cool to speak to but then also the um depth and breadth kind of people is is also very cool to talk to, so privilege to have you on. But I didn't want to ask, there's one shot. So what did you shoot this on, C-500, 300? Yeah, C-300 and C-500, just on different occasions, but we could only get one or the other.

And again, my GH5, and then Ella had an iPhone to do her video diary. and we had the meeting with, well, actually at the Fountain, you know, at the art gallery in America, we had a second camera person, Amy Bentch, who was local from... I've interviewed Amy. There you go, yeah, so yeah. Amy's read. Yeah, she was recommended because I'm part of the British female cinematography collective called Illuminatrix, but also. the international one in America. And so we looked at that list and she came highly recommended.

And then it was great because we met briefly before the shoot and she just seemed great. And our rushes when we shot for the day just were so in tune with each other. And because I looked at her show room and I was like, you know, I really like her work. And we just clicked shooting two cameras and there was never any kind of. was like, oh, you know, there was never any battle. We were just always looking at each other, and she was always in the right place. And so she had a Sony, which camera was. So there was one day of having the AF7, I think.

Oh, she had like the mirrorless. Yeah, and not the A7, no, got the wrong camera. Which one was it? FX-9, FX-6. F-S-7, yeah. And yeah, they, they, the cameras worked really well together. in the grade and yeah so it was kind of really meant to be it was like she was the perfect person to step in and Ellen just really loved her if I recall correctly I think last year I interviewed her

for Sundance last year if if this is the right person and she had like five documentaries in the Sundays or something like I went to talk to her about one and then she was like well I got this other one and I was like wait hold on and then we looked and she had like four and one of them she directed and I was like that's so you win you win Sundance um I think that was her yeah yeah she's very good but the thing I wanted this is such a dump now that we've had that fun conversation the thing that was done was it was uh the shot there's a cell phone shot of you towards the beginning in the elevator with Ella going and you've got this black wrap sunshade over the monitor and I was like man I should have just done that I have bought every

size sunshade for that month because I have a C-500 I've bought every size sunshade for that thing and it's like they're never right I did feed back to canon actually because they got in touch to me and I said there is one thing that I could tell you a sunshade yeah that would just be brilliant because I'm always black wrapping and gap at taping it and you know I make one and then you know it lasts a while and then I have to make another one and it's um and then just wear a big The other thing, I tend to take the top handle off completely, which is annoying for many reasons. And I just put the monitor on a articulating arm. Because I find that having it like on that plastic hinge is a little restrictive.

And so I'm like, I need to put it. But then you don't have the top handle. So I want like a rear offset top handle and like an articulating arm and a sunshed. And then that camera is perfect. Then it would be, yeah, everything would come together and it would be the stars aligning. Yeah, you're right. Maybe we should go into designing together. There's little things.

I've done it with most things that I own, but definitely the cameras. I'm always like, I get frustrated easily with like any friction. So I'm just like, that has to go. I'd rather deal with my version of friction than whatever's been imposed on me. Yeah. No, it's so true, especially when you're such solo shooting as well. And I cannot carry around anything extra. So I just have to have what I need and it has to work.

The other thing I do is because I noticed, I noticed you had it too, but everyone uses like a senheiser on their, any camera, it doesn't matter, they use this long. I little, little,

I get a little tiny little microphone that's this big. And I can mount that on anything. This is a Neumann cam. Can you send me that in your, what's that? email that you can send me with the other bits that's very that thing sounds amazing but what i'll do is let's say again it's a directional mic yes um to a degree it's not as narrow as obviously a 416 but um for the kind of stuff you were doing at least in that documentary

you're close enough and what i'll do is i'll actually put that on an articulating arm as well and so it can go closer you know like um so if here's the lens it'll go out and down, up a little bit. And so it looks pretty silly. Sometimes it's unwieldy, but you're basically booming from the top of the camera. And I found that's actually quite good. And then if they, it's almost taller or shorter than you can just, you know. Bend it up and down.

Brilliant. Thank you. That's a good tip. Thank you. A lot of, a lot of silly tips out of me probably. No, not silly. No, it's all great because it's, yeah, it's that thing. especially when you've been doing that kind of thing on your own final lot and you just get used to what you get used to.

It's really, really good to kind of go, oh, what have you got? Okay. So these are the moments that we can share. Well, in my sort of, I don't know if it's hubris, but I just grew up very punk rock. So anytime I see a lot of people doing something, I don't want to do it now. So having the 416, I mean, I own a 416, but having that like, and then the big coil of XLR, because no one wants to. to buy a three-footer, you know? Yes.

I'm like, no, there's a better way. But let's see, yeah. All right, we're coming up on time. I have, I actually added, normally I say I asked the same three questions at the end of every podcast, but last night, I came up with a fourth one. So we'll get through these. The fourth one, or technically the third one, is for documentarians only. but we'll start with the thing I came up with last night

which was have you learned anything recently in the course of your job that has excited you and sparked joy? Oh, wow, that's a good question. I'm just trying to think. I suppose I learned, as we've discussed earlier, something every day. It's always about, what have I learned today?

you know, whether it be something technical, um, interpersonal, um, I suppose, yeah, anything about that side of things, or the mixture of things. What have I learned?

I think what has been the kind of biggest lesson most recently and since COVID actually was, I think I've had a lot more fun at work. since COVID. COVID was a brilliant lesson to go, don't take any of this for granted. So I so enjoyed the opportunity to go back to work when I could.

And I was like, I need to make this fun because what's the point otherwise? So I've definitely learned to have fun at work, but still be in the zone and still do this. And I still have what directors call it, my family face, which is basically my concentration. mine's like this

after the hard day that I've done today that it's not vanishing quickly and so I need to maybe like try and massage that out each night but I've learned to have a lot more fun and to relax I think when you're younger

and you start in this industry you want to get everything right and everything has to be perfect and all of that and I've learned to relax and I do remember doing some a shadowed a DIP called Alan Armand who's a British DAP

who's done a really brilliant variety of work who's a BSC and I was covering him for a day so I shadowed him for a day before and I just remember seeing him with an easy rig and kind of walking along with it and it wasn't, didn't have a serene arm or anything I was like wow he's trying an easy rig

and walking with it oh I've always found that that does that and after he'd done his take in the distance wherever it was in Hansa Heath or something I went how did that go and oh it's terrible but I had used one before I just thought, oh, brilliant. I love his attitude. He was not afraid.

He just tried it out. And he was, you know, 20 years older than me or 25. You know, and I think that's what you see from more experienced DOPs. It's like, oh, I'm just going to try that. So doing that with fun and be curious, I think, is what I've learned since COVID, just to kind of enjoy that and make sure that's part of the process. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Pre-COVID, there was definitely a lot of burnout. Like, the most common conversation was about burnout. And I think if you're not, like, passion can only take you so far before burnout overrides it. Yeah. And it's not fun anymore. It's not engaging or whatever, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

And you lose the joy and the passion then that you say, yeah, what's the point? Yeah. At the end of the day, not documentary, but at the end of the day, we're making make-believe. Like, it should be kind of fun. Like, you know, I was going to say, I should, you've mentioned a couple DPs. I should look them up because I think I may be the only American with preserving the vision. Wow. The BSC home.

Oh, really all of them that I mentioned actually in that. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Ooponticos or, uh, yeah, I interviewed her in that. Anyway, um, second question. Oh, that's brilliant. Second question, if you were to schedule or program a double feature with this documentary, what would the other film be? Oh, that's a great question. It doesn't have to match the film. It can be whatever you want it to be.

It can be a contrast. It can be a direct comparison. be an inspiration and be whatever you want well my beautiful um is it my beautiful broken brain was an inspiration because it was looking at somebody who's picking up their lives that that would be one so yeah i'll say that one okay uh almost there it's weird with four questions now because three always says uh uh everyone always asks you know oh what's a what's a good piece of advice or what's the best piece of advice you've gotten? I don't like that question.

What's the worst piece of advice you've ever gotten? I think when I was looking for agents and stuff, I think there was a bit of advice, oh, don't mention your personal life much, or don't mention this. And in a way, it's like if you're going to get an agent, they need to know who you are. And I think very much as a DOP,

and especially a female DAP, we shouldn't be afraid of expressing who we are. Right. Yeah, the, man, the whole, like, agent, real conversation is, like, a whole other podcast, because we end up talking about it a lot here. And, like, it does feel like there's, like, an old guard who's, like, you need to be a machine. And then there's kind of the new, not thing, but, like, we're all people. like and you also are hiring as you know DOPs whoever you're hiring them for their ability to turn feeling into action yeah it's not it's not it's not it's not wrote you know otherwise you could just use that AI we were

talking about earlier absolutely and I think you know obviously there's a limit people don't want to know the internet's your life but I think it's like that um that fear of expressing your who you are the person and kind of not just being, yes, I can shoot it for you. It's like you need a personality. You need to be that person. And I think if you don't get a job for whatever reason, that interview didn't go well or you thought it well, but you didn't get the job, it might not be because of you.

It's more like tasking. Remember, you're more like an actor. Yeah. You've got to work for the project. And sometimes you're not right for the role. it's not personal it's just the vision is different so that is probably my own advice that i've given to myself that's the kind of good advice like well no don't let other people's opinion you have to take it on as that wasn't meant to be or this didn't work out because of

x y and z and um and that's definitely come from me not being that person of being inner having that inner confidence to just go, no, this is me. And once that came, everything has just gone so much better for me in life that you just go, oh, yeah. And why would someone hire someone who didn't feel comfortable expressing who they were? Because that doesn't inspire confidence. Yeah. Well, and also just like, it's like dating.

like why would you uh if you know if you lie on the first date the rest or the relationship's going to suck yeah absolutely yourself the first time and they hire you for that you're going to have a great working relationship yeah and it's just about having that innate confidence just to have your own authenticity because it's exactly that it's like if you're trying to be someone else all the time and then that's just not going to work yeah um final question this is the documentarian question do you have a shoe recommendation oh well i've discovered this danish brand called eco or echo e double c o and ever since i discovered them i have them for all of my pretty much all of my footwear um whether that be work shoe or non-work

shoe um because they're very comfortable and they have a shoe for every shoe for every situation. But I think, you know, a summer, a winter shoe, but just always a shoe that will protect your toes and let your foot breathe on the soul. And don't trip over them. Don't be too big and clumsy. So it's got to have that balance. And I suppose sometimes I do have another shoes that quite thin on the sole. And that can be quite good if you need to feel a bit more grounded for whatever reason it's it's funny every documentary dp i've asked that question has not hesitated for a millisecond on what their answer is it's such an important part of the job that i have never heard anyone ask and i have an going amazon list i have to because now there's

all kinds of brands but at the end of like this season i want to put together like the most voted like work, you know, stand on your feet for 15 hours, workware, document. You put the list out there for all of us to see because that'll be really good. Share the love. I will. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me over the past hour. That was a lot of fun. And like I said, the documentary is fantastic. So y'all should be proud. Thank you. It's such a pleasure talking to you and great questions and everything. Thank you very much. Raymond Reference is an Owlott production. It's produced and edited by me,

Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the Ethad Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truex branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidio Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.