Frame & Reference Podcast - 90: "Kung Fu" DP Chris Kempinski

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

On this weeks episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Chris Kempinski about the CW series "Kung Fu." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 90 with Chris Kempinski, DP of the CW series Kung Fu. Enjoy. Yeah, because that was actually going to be one of my questions was just about coming through lighting. Because a lot of times you'll either get DPs who just jumped at DPs, DPs who started lighting, or DPs who are architects. I don't know why. There's a lot of architects. Well, you're assembling, you know, you're, especially when it comes to blocking or like a three-dimensional world.

like you really need to be able to um utilize the camera in that kind of framing framing framework like it's yeah it's it's like it would make sense architect would actually be interesting like i i came i came in from cooking which is like oh that explains the hat right and as a sous chef like it's like you you learn to take in a bunch of information prioritize it in a pattern and then um and then and then and then learn how to, you know, piece it back together again and in priority order, which is exactly the same, exactly the same mindset that you need on a film set. Like you take in a whole bunch of information,

discard the things that aren't important or that are not related to you, understand that, you know, this has to happen before this, before this, before that, before this. And then when it all comes together, you hand it to the server and two takes it to the table, right? Which is interesting. Yeah, and under pressure as well.

I think that's probably the bigger help almost. I always laugh because people are like, oh, people in the film industry could be so, you know, angry and mean sometimes. I'm like, oh, yeah, but at least they don't have like 12 inch knives and piping hot plates being thrown at you,

you know what I mean? Like, it's like a totally different. And they're not on Coke. Yeah, totally. And it's mostly just their words. It's not, you know, which is,

I mean, anyways, it's times have changed. Yeah. You know, that, uh, I was,

I was, you know, doing some research as you do. And I stumbled upon some posts of yours on the cinematography forums from like back in the day. Yeah. And I love when I find that because there's only been a couple DPs. Like one of them I remember it was like Lark and Cyple, you know, everything everywhere. Like I'm pretty sure it was him. I found some like, you know, post from forum posts from back of the day. And I was like, we all like in the 07 to like 2010 area, we all were just on forums chatting with like David Mullen and

stuff. Well, to talk about David Mullen, man, like he was so open with information. Like, I, I was just a kid that was excited. I was shooting weekend stuff on 16 millimeter. And he would answer questions on that forum for me that was just like, to me that was life changing. And it really said an example as to that you don't have to hold all your cards tight to you. You know, like if someone can do the job better than I can, I mean, you're going to inspire me to want to do better work. You're not a threat to me, in my opinion. It is you're more, you're more of a, you know, a colleague that's pushing me to do better. And I, and I, and I, I, I learned that from David Moulton.

I mean, he's just like, and again, even on those forums in the early 2000s, he was like, just an open book, which is really cool, really just, just, and just a wealth of information. Yeah. It is kind of frustrating because I still, I'm sorry, I still love, you know, learning, obviously we all do. But it does feel like the avenues to learning are now more kind of just stuck in books like that, that, I don't want you, active education space like the early 2000s forums don't tend to exist anymore. Now it's a lot of like YouTubers and stuff, which can be educational depending on what you're talking about. But that sharing of knowledge doesn't seem to exist anymore. I think the chips and the lenses have gotten so good now that it used to be like to get your hands on a film camera and actually. find someone to pay to put film through the process.

I mean, that was a struggle on its own, let alone knowing how to expose it and tell a story. But I think it's no longer the want. It's all about the magician now. I mean, you can take any censor these days. And if you know how to expose it properly and stay within its limits, I mean, you can get a nice picture. you know what i actually just uh because i write the website that distributes this podcast pro video

coalition i write reviews forum and just other articles and stuff but um oh i don't think this was an article i think it's just youtube anyway i found my old af 100 and uh and like was like i wonder if i could make this look and come to find out the af 100 still looks pretty good it's a little crispy in the highs for sure but uh still not uh bad and then even going back at the same did the same thing with the XL2. XL2, obviously it's, you know, sensors, I mean, the resolution's about 16 by 10, but. Honestly, but I mean, like, again, I'm looking, I haven't redone, I haven't had to cut a demo reel in, in eight years.

I haven't the same demo reel, and it's fine, but I'm starting to assemble all the pieces to make a better demo reel. And, oh, really? My red one footage, the original, the original red one was, stuff looked great. man like I was just because I didn't most of my early like bigger DP stuff was web series that was shot on the red one it was that was the you know for 20 grand you could get in and buy yourself a 4k camera and and that was that was pretty bleeding edge of the time just pretty crazy yeah that you know that I'm only

a little younger than you but I back that was when I was in college around that time and the like web series era of filmmaking i that's that's how me and all my friends thought we were going to get into the industry right like oh we're going to nail so we were all doing it and so to see like way better projects come out like yours uh was it was it was a rice or rite it's called rice yeah that's right yeah uh i can read um but uh weird spelling yeah um yeah like you were saying it was like encouraging it wasn't like oh no we're never going to reach that. It was always like, that's possible, you know, except we have like a 7D or an

AF 100, DVX. Most of us were under the DVX. Yeah. Well, and again, like this is, this goes back to this whole like, I mean, I was a lamp off. And then on weekends, I'd shoot stuff like that. And, and I was lucky that I met producers. And even those producers now are still open doors for me from, from, from those days.

Because they've gone on to bigger, different things. And, like, Reese was a, it was a no-budget show. I mean, we had the camera. Well, I wouldn't say no budget. It was a small. It looked really good. Thank you. And again, that's where I was working in commercials, and I was working with, like, top DPs,

but I'd have long stretches of, you know, no work, which was great. And it let me do that kind of stuff. But as you know, I mean, you go into every project with the highest of hopes. and normally, before sandwiches come out on day one, you know whether or not you've made a horrendous mistake or you've been gifted an amazing opportunity. Right. And I think Reese was one of those, like, amazing opportunities for sure.

Yeah, because there was only a couple of, like, Dr. Horrible sing-along blog, I think was around that time and the writer's strike and stuff. Sanctuary was like the first one that, like, you know, But made it to network television. So Sanctuary started as a web series. And then Reese, I really thought Reese was going to get picked up. They did pitch it, but it was on the sci-fi homepage for a long time. The TV station, sci-fi.

Yeah, the sci-fi TV station. So it was on their homepage as a web series. They never aired it as a TV show. And then... Oh, that missed its mark by like eight years, six years. because that would have hit no one was going to that website in 2007

I know and that's what just like so anyways it's in but that's the industry right it's just like you're so close and you're just like you're about to hit that like line drive but

yeah well it is it is good to because it's interesting you said you're working on your demo reel because I'd like I was going to say I'd like to know why I know why but like a lot of DPs that I've talked to have said like producers

don't or clients whoever don't really look your real, that's Instagram Reels, your work, your CV real. Do you find that, do you not find that to be the case then? I do. And then again, that's why I've gone eight years without having to do one. But I just looked at, I've been watching it. The one from 2015 is music videos and commercials mostly.

Right. Really good, artsy stuff. But it's not like, I've done great, really good episodic. And I've been very happy with what, you know, the pictures that I've been able to, you know, pull out from some of the newer shows. And I'd love to be able to put together more of a drama reel. I think some producers that don't know you will want to see you cut together like a full,

don't want to see something cut together of like a further piece or action sequence that you've done, that way they know that you're capable of more than just like, you know, those one or two pretty shots kind of thing. And then you're able to assemble a, you know, a cohesive scene, if that makes sense. Sure.

Oh, as you've heard this podcast, I tend to jump around. The thing I remembered was, because we'll get back to the reels and stuff, but I did want to ask, you know, especially working on a lot of television in your career, especially in the lighting department and second unit and stuff. I was wondering if there's anything that you've learned that has made you more efficient on these larger, you know, like Marvel shows or stuff like Kung Fu, or whatever. Because I think, you know, especially when you're on something a bigger budget, or if you're,

if you're maybe a more, more came up on like the artsy side of things and not so much the technical, you can overcomplicate your setups or something. I've watched DPs light themselves in circles, right? They start doing this. And then all of a sudden, by the time they get back here, it's all flat. So then they start over again. And they just keep going in circles and trying to find contrast. So I think I've learned a lot.

I've learned a lot just sitting and watching both my idols as a, again, in commercial lamp op and even big on big features and stuff. I've learned to utilize my rigging department and my art department in terms of like setting the tone of what I need and setting my back lights like right away. So they're already there and I don't have to, I just have to live. the lid off of that or, you know, with a drop, drop whatever may already be rigged up there and turn on the, I think I'll ring of back lights and then come in with a key light and finesse the actor's faces and stuff.

So I really learned to utilize the prep crew, which you don't always get, but on bigger shows you do. And I really, but you know, on on Hellstrom, I started doing with giant second units, like they were big chase scenes, big, you know, they were just establishers some of them, but there was lightning and wind and rain towers, just all this kind of stuff going on, and it was just a giant building where that had to light it and light the inside of it. But the, you kind of prioritize, like, okay, today this is all about camera movement. I have to nail this, you know, this oneer that we're going to go down the stairs, we're going to

hit to this gimbal, drop down four flights of stairs, they're going to pick it up and carry it on to the thing. So you kind of, you prioritize what the importance is are. Again, it's kind of what we're talking about with cooking. So you have to sit there and go, okay, well, how much can I finesse my lighting? Can I, is this location a place that I can naturally light from outside the window so I don't have to, on the day when we get here, I don't have to focus on lighting as much as I do nailing this camera movement, right? So there's, there's just, I don't know if I'm dating off topic too much, but like from a technical, technical side, it's funny because like after Reese, I wanted to just be a DP. And Reese was, what, 2010?

That's what it seemed like, yeah. 2009 is, I guess, when you were posting about it, yeah. So I think, I think I went to 2015 before I really joined the IOTC, like ICG as a full DP. So I went another six years before I actually just focused on camera and being a DP, which to me seems like such a long time, but I wouldn't change it for the world because the amount of things that what I learned in those six years is what is the toolbox that I have now. And as soon as you step up into that top breast position, it's not that you stop learning, but you get, like, for me, it's like I lost.

ability to just be, you know, like a pigeon on a, you know, an unsuspecting, you know, I watching everything. Right. And I stopped taking all that in. So, and now I know what I know. Like what I know is what I know and I have to utilize that. So my tool, my toolbox, I think the point is my toolbox filled up the longer I was a tech. And able to work with DPs under different circumstances, different projects and whatever. It let me. it just gave me the technical side to be able to be confident now because now I don't even worry about I barely worry about the camera and the lighting like I I do

during prep but I'm you know by the time you is especially for TV you get into post prep shoot you know reading new scripts you really don't have time plus the politics side of everything you really don't a lot of time to worry about set which is I don't know if anybody's really talked about that but no that's actually a good point because like indie stuff someone asked me I was at the Kodak awards two nights ago and uh it was fun and I was talking to a guy who didn't work in the industry at all and he was asking what a DP does and I was like well on a small set I'm doing everything and on a big set I'm doing nothing 100% true you're just sitting on the monitor and telling people

you're doing it wrong. Yeah. I mean, talking to the director more than anyone else. Yeah. And I mean, again, like, you know, commercials, you're talking to the client and, you know, trying to make sure that you're getting their vision and, and, yeah, it's a weird job. And it's hard to explain to people that don't know what, what we do. At parties, I just started saying plumber.

No one asks more questions. Really? I'm like, yeah, dad was a plumber. And they're like, cool. Do you like that? That's fun. What about you? And then just move on, because...

Yeah. You shot anything I've seen? No. You met any famous people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so for, I think that's cool. You went to the Kodak Award.

I just, I have a 30, Airy 353. Nice. They shot a music video on like this like 15-year-old like recans that it's been sitting in my closet for, not even in a fridge, like sitting in my closet for like 15 years. And the guy that I did Dead Shack with, like a Peter Rieke, he, he's also a musician and a graphic novelist, like the guy's a, he's pretty cool dude. Really, he's got a lot going on.

But I'm like, dude, I have the camera, I have the film. Like, let's just do this. Let's just shoot something and just let's see how it happens. So we shot it on, you know, expired 15-year-old, you know, three-perph anamorphic or four-perf anamorphic and it looked fantastic oh hell yeah was it still 5219 or yeah a lot of 5219 a lot that's a little uh 52 72 72 which is weird and then okay yeah I know there's a bunch of stuff like most of it was 5219 I did I ended up buying some new 500 tungsten just because we had some night stuff to shoot um and some off-speed

stuff but um but 90% of it like the rule of thumb was like once and again I think that was a David Mullen thing. I could be wrong, but it was like one stop of the other overexposed one stop for every 10 years. It was expired. That is 100% of David Mullen thing. Yeah. So I had to over, I overexposed a stop and a half, you know, for most of it.

And then I, but I also overexposed my negative by a stop normally. So I was exposing by two and a half stops, which is awesome. So interesting. You're sitting there going like, oh, shit, it's this again. Forget about this part. Yes. Well, but it's, you know, The good thing is I still light with a light meter, and I do that for digital only because for continuity so that when I, when we turn around, I know that I need a four and a third of that key light.

And the cool thing with LEDs is it's a linear curve. So you're not, you're not dealing with those old sine wave curves. Like when you dim the light or throw a scrimmon in it might not be exact. Like it's exact. Like if you say give you 50%, you're losing a stop, right? Which is, which is great. So you can dial your lights in. And I mean, you can do that with a waveform monitor as well. But yes, this is nice. And when I'm shooting film, I usually sit on a dolly with a light with the spot meter. And I'm right, I'm spot metering everything so that I know where my values are that way, which is great. Again, I'm glad I kept that up.

I didn't let that go. I legitimately wish I could just spend more time in the spot meter. I think also it's like the Roger Deacons like when you don't know what to do you just put your eye in the eyepiece and just think for a minute so people think you're doing something but like the spot meter

when I finally got a spot meter I had a regular light meter from shooting film got in like 06 something like that and I just bought one with a spot meter at like three years ago two years ago and it's the best

you just like face face yep that's good just make it that though every time and the color meter Yeah. The new one's crazy. I still have the old one from when I was a gaffer, a commercial gaffer. And I don't even know, I don't think that's calibrated anymore. But, and I don't, I wouldn't know who would even be able to calibrate it. They'd have to get inside and find small people to kind of like turn the knobs and stuff. But I, the new one is amazing. Yeah, that's, that's the one I have the C-800. It's crazy. Like, what it sees and what it doesn't, it's. It's a pretty cool, pretty cool tool. I made an entire website that I have yet to launch. And by I, I mean, I hired someone. But hi, I went and I metered every light I could find at film tools and elsewhere.

You know, the rental house by my house, lights that I own. And I'm just going to put out, obviously it's not like a robust scientific study, but just put out like what these lights are putting out. Because, like, the thing that's so frustrating is on a smaller set, you know, if I'm the AC or whatever, they'll be like, all right, just set it to $5,600, set that to $5,600. And I'm like, you don't know. You don't know. Like, I have a light that, you know, it needs to be $6,500 for bias light. Nope, you got to set it to $7,000 for it to actually output $65.

You know, there's so many, no, I've, I've, the keynote flows. are pretty accurate, ARIs are pretty accurate in terms of the white balance, like where you put it. Yeah. Less accurate than. As long as they're, as long as they're relatively new. I mean, they start to get a bit of a magenta spike in them, you know, with their hours or get, get high.

And say what, Keno get a bit green sometimes like if they, you know, LEDs. LEDs, yes. That's what. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because I got to get out of the vernacular of calling them Kinos. Well, but the old Keno, the first generation of, uh, Keno, the first generation of, uh, Keno,

LEDs were, were really green or really magenta. Like I remember that the new, the first, like, I want to say it's the celeb or something like that, but yeah, they were, they were great. But again, everything has come such a far, such a long way in terms of technology and quality of light out of small sources. It's pretty crazy. In what ways has the LED, the modern, good LEDs like helped and maybe kind of hurt the work you do because I know that

there's a lot of people who still prefer just like you know the good the good old standard tongue center HMI because you know what it looks like it's punchy as fuck you know you can do what you need but I I used to think that way when I was like being a nerd and then I was like you know what like LEDs are sick unless you need a shit ton of power well and that's the thing I mean it it the LEDs don't throw So you don't get a lot, you know, a sky panel from 15 feet gets you like a four stop, like with no diffusion on it. So once you start diffusing it and everything, you know, you start shaping it a bit, all of a sudden, or if you bounce it, now all of a sudden you're dealing with like less than a two stop. And it's not like they don't hunch or throw the same as a as a for now.

And I used to be a DP that I worked with a lot, Phil Lindsay, he used to do leco bounces everywhere. And he would just have, we'd have like a sea of lecos in one corner and then bounces on like all the way through the set. And all these lecoes were like hitting all these other sources. And it was, it was an interesting technique. But I. Inexensive too. Oh, totally. Yeah.

We had, we had two buckets. I think we had like 24 of them. And I just followed us everywhere. It was crazy. And I love what he did that because it was always, you can shape them. Like if you, if you just trim the size of the bounce, it would diminish the light. So rather than, it was cool. Oh, yeah, huh.

So rather than skimming or dimming, you could just trim, you could just trim the size of the source. It was the little mat. Yeah. And he made Randy the key grip. Like he had probably a hundred styrobe bounces in all shapes and sizes with like, some of them with gold, some of them with silver, some of them, you know, plain, plain white. And it was great.

It was a lot of work. But we, it was, I thought it was really effective. And it looked great. It looked great. It looked really cool. We were getting off the topic of LEDs. Oh, yeah, sorry, continue. So I think LEDs, a good thing about it is you can stick lights in places you couldn't before.

Like before, in order to get a single tube, you know, under a counter or under a bar, you'd have to like run cables and power and all this stuff. And then you'd have to gel it or scrim it or there's no dimming capability. So now you're able to put lights in places that were just like cars. or any kind of, again, bar set or kitchen cup cupboards and drawers, whatever, you can basically get lights anywhere now. And the fact that they're battery powered, that their iPad control, that it's just insane what you can do now without having to hide cables and gel lights

and do all this other stuff. So I think that's come mild. But, not being said, I mean, season three at Kung Fu, man, like, I lit that whole show with park hands and T-12s. I mean, oh, and blondes. I did soft boxes, like, big soft boxes with blonde. That was cool. And it was partly budgetary, but it was also, I just like, I love what a T-12 looks like blasted through a window. Like, it's just something that you just can't, like, a nice big for now, you know, pushing through.

And the same with Halstrom. Like, we had, we had 6K frenels outside a lot of those windows. And they just looked, just something about that big for now. It's just the quality and the push and how the light pushes through the window. It's totally different. Completely, it's apples and oranges. I do have a weird half-cocked theory about like when people like, oh, how do I make something look cinematic?

I'm like, you actually just need more powerful lights. Like, you know, like because of LEDs or just like the ease at which you can balance. bounce any, I'm using a single light bulb into my thing, you know. Doesn't look that great actually now that I'm, anyway, uh, point being, um, I think with how, uh, sensitive cameras are, you, you can get away with, with lower contrast ratios and just a lower base exposure and still have to look good, but it doesn't look good. Yes. Yeah, I agree with you there. They, you really do need, like my, the people that I, that I like to emulate um i'd say i'd put david mulling up there uh like the marvelous marshal it was like that

was such a good looking series um but that's amazing yes basil sorry um uh darius kanji for me like was just like i should hold him at tobs like delicatessen and city of the lost children were just i mean paint literally painting with light and that when you watch people like that like bruno de venal like just guys that like understand color theory and and just again painting with light and just just just those highlights the low lights understanding where to put the values and and how to tell the story by forcing a look which is is is kind of that's that's it's unnatural that gets it's because a lot of guys now are taking more light away than they are forcing a look of course yeah I think I think maybe that's the feature thing because you don't have time for that

and TV, I don't think. Oh, really? Oh, because you'd have to black out like entire sides of rows and stuff. It's, even budgetary-wise, like, budgets on TV are, well, the budgets on my TV are getting smaller. I mean, I think they're, you know,

the SVODs, you know, coming in with giant budgets are, I don't know if those, it's interesting. The industry is in such, such flux right now. We'll see what comes out the other side, Because it's just, uh... By SVOD, do you mean like mini-series?

No, I mean like the stranger things. Like this says streaming video on demand. That's kind of like the SVOD. So that's what I tell my agent. That's what we want next because that seems to be the million dollar day budget kind of project. Netflix has the money. Well, they do. Maybe.

Well, that's again. I don't know if their business model is sustainable, right? Because so many advertising dollars. And it's interesting how it all works. I'm definitely, whenever people talk about Netflix as a business, I'm like, I don't know how they could, because they're always trying to get more subscribers. And I'm like, you have all of them. You, you are saturated. I don't know, like, if there is anyone else on the planet to subscribe.

Right. But I mean, the cool thing is, is that they're able to do things that, because they know our personal information and they know how many people are going to watch, like say, a Gilmore girl. or something like that. And I think that the cool thing about Netflix is that they are picking up shows and they're doing shows with specific demographics that could be sold certain, you know, certain things. So you have this like this perfect mashup of, of they know the demographic that's going to watch, you know, stranger things. And those people are apt to be, you know, buy or be sold certain products.

And I think that's where the future, I think, is going in terms of just, like, being able to just, just, like, hone in on an audience and what their likes are and just be able to cater to that audience, how small or however big it may be. I think if you can hone in and cater to that audience, I think that's the big ticket. And I think that's the same with Disney. I mean, all the Mandalorian series and all that kind of stuff. Loki, they're totally catering to that market. Like, that's exactly what they're giving them what they want. And it's when you get shows that kind of stream away from, you know, whatever Canon source material may be, that's when people start turning their TVs off

is because they're there to watch the comic. They're there to see the progression of this character that they already know. I, weirdly, and I had kind of. of the opposite impression, oh, I shouldn't say impression of the business side. I think people seem to be more interested in, I suppose it is canon, because I was going to say, Mandalorian's not necessarily like a main character, Loki's not a main character, Andor, yeah, not main characters, and people seem to like those more grounded, and I mean, literally on the ground, like Andor was on the ground, it was never in space, I mean, whatever.

But, yeah, I think people are, I think there's like a general tendency on the audience side towards what I will call quote unquote normal shows, even if they're sci-fi, even if they're fantasy, whatever, like just normal, like people doing things versus these huge ass tent pole superhero, you know, kind of wrote films that all kind of tend to be structurally similar. Yeah. But again, and again, but the funny thing is, it all comes back to just good story right which is hilarious but not it's not hilarious but it is it is what you know what we kind of go in intending hoping that we get out of any project that we want to do is is that you're the end of the day you're going to tell a story that resonates and that um that people can relate to right like that like people you want to be on that that that show where people kind of you know once the credits roll you're just like

Like, they want more or they, they, they, they questioning everything. Like, how could, what did I just experience or whatever it may be, right? Like, that's, that's kind of, that's the end goal, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly, uh, oh, no, I won't, I was going to name a show and be like, well, if you were on, I don't need to do that. Uh, there's a lot of good television out right now, though. It's, it's hilarious how that used to be like such a, you know, oh, you work in TV.

Now, and now it's like, it's all connected. It's all visual media. I think that's, again, the money and the quality of the cameras and lenses and everything else. Like, your ability to do more with less is just grown exponentially. And I think that, you know, feature film, well, we used to be feature film DPs and actors are now taking on web series, not web series, but like, you know, straight to video TV and movies. that I just again, it just wasn't available before. And I think that that really makes it. It's just everybody step their game up.

So now when you go see a movie, you're just kind of, you're not. You really, I mean, you're watching, you know, high budget Hollywood grade TV. So that when you see a movie, the impact, I think, it's great to see things on big screens. Like I love the theater. But I mean, right now I'm rewatching. I just got a, you know, like a 65-inch OLED, and I'm re-watching a whole bunch of stuff on that just because it's, the resolution is amazing. I just want to see how older projects held up.

And it's pretty crazy, like how television is kind of eclipsed movies in terms of look and, uh, yeah, and a story and just a bunch of, there's just a whole bunch of things. I, again, I'm really interested to see where the future. goes because it's really we're at this point where um yeah people are people again with the pandemic people are staying home more they're not they're still i don't think they're still going to the theaters which is which is a shame because i mean i that that experience as a kid is what what made me want to get into the movie industry was just walking into a you know um just a movie and just walking out just not just flabbergasted like what did i just what just happened there

Like, I have to go see that again and again and again. And I'm not sure that that, well, maybe it exists. Like, it does. Like, there's a few things recently that kind of blown my socks off. Yeah. I, you know, it's, it's, I've seen it kind of as a good and a bad. Like, we and my friends just went and saw cocaine bear. So, this is a lot of fun.

It's a lot of fun. If you, if you start with your, if you start, that's where the beginning is. I'm sure it only gets better. Yeah. It's the Liz Banks did a good job, but especially if you like like 80s horror films, it's, but I was sitting next to my friend and she was, and I had noticed, this is the annoying part about going to movies with me, I had noticed that the center channel was blown. So it sounded like it was the dialogue and only the dialogue was coming through like a tin can.

And so I'm like, I'm like twitching. And my friend's like, well, just go tell the people. I'm like, I'm not going to go tell the people like, what if they stop it? What if, what if I cancel this screening? So I just dealt with it and it was hard to hear. And I was really upset that because everyone was always like, movies are too hard to hear and they're too dark. But the thing was, she was like, do you go to movies for like the good picture or whatever quote on foot? I was like, well, yeah, but I mean, there's other things.

She goes, I go for the snacks. And I was like, no. Oh, man. But that's like my girlfriend goes to hockey games. She's like, I'm here for the beer and the excitement and the fighting. And I'm like, yeah, all right. I find the, it's really, oh, man, I find it's hard to turn off my DP brain. Like I can't go in and just shut the lighting and camera off, especially on a big screen.

Like, there's things that I would never do, you know, on a big screen that I, that I, that I, pull out on a small screen but I usually try and I don't I don't I don't watch too much TV I mean that's that's changed over the last few years but I really strived for wanting to do big movies that was my end game but so I would never really do close-ups or or what I would consider a close-up on a 70-foot screen you know versus versus a 40-inch screen so I I try I would always try to imagine my projects going to the big screen so that, both for lighting and for framing, so that I would never, you know, I would never do extreme close-ups. And even a close-up, again, like I'd want to see like kind of top, top button and I would

never go inside unless it was, you know, story-driven. So, but but seeing something on a big screen. is just different. This is something, even if it's not exposed properly, like again, it's that two out of three, right? Like, you can have a good story with good acting and I'll forgive the bad camera work and bad lighting or whatever,

or you can have good lighting and a good story and I'll forgive the bad acting. So there's always that combination of, you know, good acting and great, great lighting. I'll forgive the big story holes as long as there's two out of the three will hold my attention, right? But you can't have one out of three.

And three out of three is rare. I don't think you'll get three out of three very often in your lifetime. Yeah. It's, it is frustrating. I mean, people are just making so much stuff. What was I going to say about the? Oh, the thing about the theater that I've noticed is maybe the upshot. So the downshot is that people are just going to the theater for snacks

and they're not really engaged in film. And I don't mean like insidable. But all of that, a lot of times that is the case. But the good part is the people who are going to the theater tend to be movie people. Because the people who don't really like movies are only going once a month, once every two months. But like the theater I go to is the one at the Century City Mall

here in Los Angeles. And it's a very nice mall. It's the bougiest fucking mall I've ever seen in my life. It's insane how like overpolished that place is. But they have a really nice AMC there. And a lot of times, every time I've gone, like, the place is full. And then no one's talking, no one's on their phone. All the receipts are really nice.

Nothing's broken, you know? And so when I hear people online complaining about it, I'm like, fuck, that's right. You live in the Midwest where, like, you're still dealing with a projector that's gone out halfway. Well, that's, I mean, it's funny because, like, I mean, I spent a lot of the 90s in the Cayman Islands in a kitchen. So I was working in the Caribbean. and the movie cool actually it was a lot of fun i i have no most of my 20s were were spent down there which is again i've no group no regrets um but the um the movie theater down there

no disrespect to anybody in cayman islands because i love them all but um they uh they use it as free um air conditioning yeah in a way and it's more of a social event like it's really people are there to watch the movie they're there to socialize to throw pop at their friends, five rows ahead to, you know, just catch up on life in free air conditioning. So I didn't go to a lot of movies when I was in, when I was living there, which is funny because I was so driven to get in the movie industry when I left there. But what the benefit of that was is that when I came back to, you know, the big city, I'm like, I had so much to catch up on because I had missed.

The Cullen Brothers, you know. Oh, fascinating. It was like you were in prison. I had no idea. Like, I hadn't seen any advertisements for these movies. I hadn't seen any, I had no idea what these films were. So I came back and like Tarantino, the Cullen Brothers, like, man, I can't even. Did you get the Matrix?

Did you get the Matrix? So I moved back right when The Matrix, that was the first movie I saw. Up and the shit. When I moved back to Canada to the United. It was just crazy, and that just blew me away, right? You walk out of the first Matrix, and if you're not just like, what the heck is this? Like, something's wrong with you. Like, you just experienced something that just, it was so forward thinking.

So quick caveat, that was the other thing I was going to add to going to theaters and movie watchers. I went to the 20th anniversary screening of the first Matrix, and it's the first time. Granted, it's everyone who went intended to see that film, right? So it's not like, I'm sure there's people who saw it for the first time. But when we left, everyone hung out in the lobby and was chatting about the film for like an hour. And that never happens on any other movie anymore. Even Top Gun, people like, that was amazing. Do you want to go get dinner?

Right. Yeah, that's awesome. And again, because that's the good. Yeah, right, you've already got something in common. But again, but it's one of those films that you just come out, like just completely like just living life. I mean, you're just like, I don't think it ever really loses its luster at all, which is, like, really cool. But yeah, so, like, when I came back, like, just everything, Guy Ritchie, so, like, I mean, I was watching, like, I mean, it was like, I think I went to see Fight Club in the, in the theater, like, like, 12 times because I was just like, again, it was just, it was just, everything resonated. So I think that was really helped in terms of, like, the timing of just not completely being disassociated with me.

media and movies altogether for you know six years to just all of a sudden being you know thrown into just a really great time in filmmaking um and then trying and then having to catch up with like another you know half decade of of films it's fantastic so i just yeah it's really happy that that was my my go-to that that must have been a rather sizable kick in the ass to come back to that because i'm said on this podcast a lot like that late 90s filmmaking era was early 2000s to a degree was very similar to like the golden era not golden not the literal golden era but like what i consider the 70s you know kind of more director focused films um yeah but i will say in the time that you were coming up

music videos were a great way for people to get into the industry and now it's kind of like all music videos are you know hired by the artist and they have a a thousand dollars you know there's not like like david fincher would not be jumping off of youtube well maybe he would but like you know what i mean there's your your mark romanx don't tend to pop out of music videos that often anymore um but i was wondering for you like what that experience is like working in the music video space but also like what did you learn from those sets because those tended to be like the most creative from my point of view Well, and that's where, again, I mean, it was, that I learned so much.

And then you can, the cool thing about music videos is that you can push to, you know, 140% and mistakes, mistakes aren't mistakes. I mean, if you make a mistake, you wreck, focus all the way out of, you know, you go all the way out and come back again, and it's, it becomes art, right? Which I think, um, you need to embrace that. And then, and you don't really, you know, it's all about camera movement. It's all about crazy forced lighting. It's all about flares.

pushing the camera to its absolute limit so that when you come back to TV or movies, you know the limit of the cameras, you know the limit of the lighting, you know where to put the light to get that flare you want. And it becomes a, I think it really helps you just in terms of all around understanding the, because again, like any, I can take any camera and make it look good, as long as you stay inside of its happy, you know, happy space, but it's understanding where its happy space is. and then by pushing into its unhappy space that you understand.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So music videos, I started as a gaffer. I was doing like nickelback and a bunch of country videos. And I had a lot of fun. But then a couple of the directors that I was working with as a gaffer, DPs weren't available. You know, this, this, that would happen.

Or they would recommend me because I was gaffing and they were out of town or whatever maybe. and yeah that was my first step like when I when I when I stepped away from lighting for good where I finally said okay this is it I'm not not going back as a lighting technician for you know for any time in the foreseeable future I think music videos and commercials kind of kept my just kept me going until I actually getting solid work on my own which is and again because it led to just so much experimentation it was kind of again it's like a film school on its own where, because I don't take any project I do and just settle for what it is. I always try to push it, stick it on a shelf that doesn't exist yet.

Right. It's just, it's just, I just think that that's my job is to take, you know, take the ordinary and try and push the limits. But knowing the limits, I think, you know, you need to learn that over time or, you know, in a camera bay figuring things out before you get, you know, a bunch of eyes looking at you expect with high expectations. Dude, the number of times I've heard, like, colleagues of mine be like, dude, it was the first time I was able to use, in this case, like a Raptor, I thought it was going to be like any other

camera. It wasn't, now I'm getting few, you know, replace Raptor with whatever, but it's like, bro, you could go to the rental house. They'll let you play with cameras. Pro tip for anyone listening, you can just go to a rental house and play with cameras. They don't care. they actually get excited about it if you're if you're wanting to learn and a lot of places like at the right places we'll get nice ones the ones in l.A. tend to be very cool about that no same with the same with Vancouver and they're very very open to you know again if you're if you're curious and you're interested they they're they're more than willing to help facilitate for sure yeah the uh I wanted to know if you had kind of a you know not thinking too

about it's sort of a generalized thought on the difference between the lighting on say your mission impossible i was going to say twilight but that man there's like no light on that film um you're like your mission impossible uh versus kind of your more indie features or even your web series or something like that like anything that you kind of immediately notice well again i mean so as I did second unit and rigging on Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol and just the scale and the size of the rigs that were there, like both in terms of grip electric. Like they had, they had, so the parking garage scene with the paddles that took the parking, they had, they had six stories of it built. There was a full ring of lights that were just like, I mean, it's just, we were in a place that was a size. of a football stadium it was enclosed like they was they was to they'd make um fairies like

passenger ferries in there and or service the ferries in there so they oh cool they basically turned it into the stage but there was there was i think a dozen um like 30 by 20 um soft boxes with like like well dino lights in each one of them and and so they they and they would they were lower on chain motors and then you could valve and valve them. And so the Gaffer was just like, okay, turn on box six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, and you just have this like, it was insanity. And then again, the lights that were built into the set and all the other things, I mean, I mean, I think the stunt where Tom Cruise jumps off the rafters onto the car,

there was six techno cranes. And it was all film. They would, they'd shoot all 65-miller VistaVision and all off-speed. And it was like six techno cranes. I think there was like nine cameras shooting at the same time. It's just so crazy. So the scope and the scale of both. Oh, and then they had two green screens that would be able to like hover.

So on an iPad, the first time I saw an iPad used where the iPad, so you could pull in these 30 by 30 green screens, drop them, hinge them, and spin them. So they traverse the whole stage. Like so you could. Wow. Greens in and then spin them and then then valve them to where. wherever you need it. It was, it was, again, I was just floored and dropped. Like, as is it. So you could just put it behind whatever action you, wherever you put the

camera, you could just drop a green screen behind it. 100%. And it was just like seeing something on a scale like that, just, I'd never seen that before. It was just, it just, it just floored me. It was the same with, like, I did a commercial with the Claudio Miranda. Um, oh, I got onto commercial. Oh, dude. He was amazing, like, another guy. Like, I just, just so technical and so. on point. Like he had the, like, this was like, that's, that's put this at like 2015. He had the whole commercial, like it was a oneer that raft around the car. The car never moved, but it made it look like the car was moving the way the commercial was shot. So it was a single steady cam oneer

that started and moved around. But he had the whole thing already specked out on his laptop, like within a three-dimensional world. I don't know what, I don't even know what program he was using. But he's Like, he was saying he wanted 150 Mac, because at the time it was before LEDs. So he wanted Mac those moving lights, the Mac 2K moving lights so that it could have instant on off and then. Oh, like the concert lights? Right. So he wanted 150 in these two soft boxes that went the whole side of the stage.

Oh. Production could only afford like 75 of them or something like that. And he's like, no, no, you don't understand. And he took his laptop, flipped it open, hit the space bar. He's like, this is why. I need 150 in each box and it was already lit. Like the whole thing was already composed, done with lighting. Like it all had, and it was like, it's like 2015.

I was just like, what is you? Like it's just so beyond, you know, like I've never seen anything like that before. And so that just opened up another, you know, portal to my brain that just says like, okay, this, okay, I got to step this up. Like this is like, this dude's like, Like, he is on point. And he brought his board operator from L.A. with him. And he'd follow him around.

He had like a little wheelie cart. And he'd follow him around with like a hog board. And he'd be like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It was like, it was great again. Just fly on the wall, sit down and watch it happen. And it's just really cool. Yeah. I mean, that's why, first of all, thank God we got the Wi-Fi DMX now.

So now that guy can just have an iPad. He doesn't have to break his back. Oh, my gosh, man. I can, anyways, yeah, we can talk about it another time. But, yeah, I think he was trying to get him out on another fun of feature that they did in Vancouver. I can't remember the name of it right now. But, yeah, I can understand why. Like, he would just, he would literally just follow and just constantly programming.

It was pretty cool. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, and the reason I ask about, like, the bigger stuff is exactly like you said. Like, I think, like, I'm, I'm, humble's not the right word, but I'm, you know, self-aware enough to know that I don't, I don't know how to light something like that. And in my head, I just would go, oh, it's like the small one, but bigger. But, like, small one for me is like, you know, eight by, bunch of light off to the side, Nege over here, a little backlight. Can I just do that bigger?

But I would never think to, you know, use concert lights in a soft box to mimic. street lamps going by or anything like that because that's such an efficient way to do it too using because no one's going to use concert lights but i guess that did well again maybe if you at the time if you needed like straight on on off with no dimming capabilities that's that was the light man like if you needed color shift with no like not seeing the color shift i mean that was it's the right choice and and it's it was at the time it was a huge like the other commercial i did with him i did a a Hyundai commercial with him. And he did, it was just after he did Tron.

And they, so they brought in, I think we had every eight foot keynote flow in North America shipped to the stages. And we built these like Vs that the car would drive through, that the car would drive right through the middle. And again, it was just like, just watching him work was just, it's just pretty cool. Like it is, and again, when you see that,

when you see that next level between the indie and big scale, It, um, it does. It opens up another side of your brain and that you're like, oh, okay. That like, it's not that hard. It's still three point lighting, but now it's, you know, I'm dealing with a football field instead of a 20 by 20 room. And so you're, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's pretty cool.

And asking for a million dollar lighting packages. What? I can do that. But again, that's, that's half of the job is looking, is like reading the room, right? Like if you have the budget and you have the budget and you have, the people and they're giving you the time and the resources and their expectations are like to the moon and but they're giving you the time and the money to do those things then obviously utilize it but on indies you don't have that time you don't have that money and and so you kind of utilize your

you know okay your key grip is is like top notch but your dolly grip that he was just like oh hey look cool this thing goes up and down so you're like okay so i can't do crazy doll my lighting guys are like on point right So I can, you know, so you take everything or my, my set deck guys are like right there for me. So, okay, let's focus on setting stuff in the foreground and making it. So you kind of utilize your pluses and you take your minuses and still work with them, but just understanding where you're, where you're low, you know, the low end is and then kind of utilizing the high end. And then again, I don't think it changes as the budgets get bigger. It's just you, as the budgets get bigger, there's no excuses.

as to why you can't do things, because I'll just throw more money at it, right? So that's where having that technical side, I think, helps. Yeah, I have the best transition. How have you applied the music video kind of punk rock knowledge with the large set knowledge to make Kung, Kung Fu? So, three. Advertisement.

There you guys. Did it. It was pretty good. I might not a lot of fantasy stuff on that show right I don't think people when they when they hear kung fu I don't think they're expecting fantasy I don't think they're expecting you know mysticism and stuff like that so I totally they let me go full music video

which for a network CW show I was I'm both I'm both humbled by it and appreciative that you know Bob Burns and Christina Cam They're the writers and creators of the show. I would, so I did a whole sequence in infrared. So they wrote it as a black void, and it was about half the show. And it wasn't, you know, it was partially my, you know, the black void had been overdone recently, you know, in stranger things and a few other shows. It's always sunny.

Yeah. So that wasn't what rubbed me the wrong way. It's just in the story, it needed something. It needed to be like something vibrant. It needed to be something, you know, based in, like, grounded, but something I could do in camera that would, you know, give us an effect or a look that wasn't visual effects. Because they didn't have a huge visual effect budget on that show.

So I knew from really, actually. Like in Reese, I kind of turned off the green channel. I don't know if you noticed any of that, but I shut the green channel off completely. And I, so when I, as soon as I. Were you able to do that in the red one, like actually turn off a channel? This was, no, this was. So they did it in, we did it in, in, in, uh, DaVinci. I, when they rendered out Reese, it took them, I think, I think, like 12 days to render it out because I kept breaking, I kept breaking the machine because. I kept breaking the machine because. it wasn't, it didn't. And this is when you had a resolved machine, not the free software that we know today. And the camera, the machines were just catching up to 4K. And it was so to render out 4K with like heavy color correction and like a heavy lot was, was, you know, unheard of. Anyway, so I took that.

And right away, I went up to Richard Spate, who was the director on that, the infrared. That was episode five, I think, season two. So, and I'm like, hey, man, nice to meet you and Chris, this scene doesn't belong here. And right away, he was like, you're right. Like, this isn't, this isn't the thing. And John Bring, who was the representative of the writing room, was like, you know what? Like that was just kind of a placeholder. Like, we just wrote it like that as a, as, okay, well, this is, this is, just to fill the, this is an unknown kind of territory, right?

Like, foreign to them. So right away, so Richard actually, rich spade. actually suggested a theater, like doing it into like an abandoned theater with like overgrown foliage and stuff like that. And then I'm like, okay, that's a guy that I'm a cool, interesting idea. And then I'm like, hey, how about this? Because I'd see this documentary where they'd shot, actually shot infrared. And so I showed him some samples. And I'm like, I wouldn't do like this per se, but I would turn off the green channel. So we'd shoot it in what would be a forest. I'd turn off the green channel and we'll shift that everything green to red and then i had to do camera

tests and i so i pitched it that i had to do a pitch session and i do camera tests i had to do a bunch of stuff but right everybody was like on board right away and and to me i wasn't expecting that from network television like i right is even hellstrom like a lot of that stuff that that was bernard that had set that up already but and even so i walked in on season two of kung fu and Lindsay had already, Lindsay George had already set this really cool, moody, broody, family dynamic show, which I'm like, this is awesome.

Right. They started writing these worlds and voids and realms and realms and, you know, all this stuff for my episodes, which I was just like, okay, cool. And I did. I went full music video. And I'm really proud of how that turned out

just in terms of I couldn't see it on the day. So it was almost like shooting film again, like, because, um, So you were shooting with like an infrared red. You were just doing that in post. We looked into it. But I, again, just talking with my DIT, Jonathan Yip, and what the capabilities were. And then there's only like four, what I learned was there's only like four areas that are actually tuned into infrared in the world. And they were, they were all booked.

So they're all booked on get out. probably so then so i'm like okay well then how do i do this so i had to kind of do a blind like i had a lot that was we sent to post they sent it back to us as like a file we uploaded it into the camera but it really wasn't even close to the final product so we were completely shooting it blind and my hopes were that the colors weren't going to affect the costumes or that mostly the faces that was my biggest worry um it didn't for my tests at all but i i i i was It was, I lost so much sleep on that episode. I really, I couldn't, I couldn't see what I was delivering.

And then post-production totally, like, just killed it. Like, oh, Jordan Men, like the colorist on that show, so happy with all the work that he did. Like, it was really, yeah, Chris Boyer was the colorist. Sorry, Jordan Men was the post. But everybody there was just like, like Chris Boyer, man. Like, by the time we got to the episode, like halfway through season three, I was giving zero notes like hey can you knock that wall down a little bit like that was like he had he had the show and he had me he had me dialed by the time we got through it all so anyway so

so season the season finale of um season two I was putting mirrors in the shot in the forest and like putting like I don't know if you how much of it you seen but I was doing like because we were using G series Panavision glass there and I was just pushing like 18 case airy backses into mirrors like in the deep back background and then redirecting them right into the camera. And so that you'd get these like just like pings of that and just smoking the heck out of the forest. Like it was full music video, man.

Like we were going and I was losing my mind and I swear I'm surprised I lived through it. But, you know, again, like Joe Menendez is the director. He's patient and he really like, he's like, okay, I see where you're going with this and this is going to work. It's just it takes time because as soon as you adjust the camera, I got to go and adjust all those mirrors. So if we guested actor or adjust marks or whatever, because it has to hit at certain times, and it was, it was, it was, ah, we just, it was good. But, and again, I think this, this last season, we did like that Thailand episode and then the, um, the kind of a haunted

house, more of a haunted, um, community center episode. I thought those turned out really well, too. So, yeah. But I think knowing, knowing the cameras, knowing the lenses, is understanding where I can push. I think that that really, it's all a combined effort, I guess. Yeah. Also, no, I meant nope, not get out, but because they used input on it. Yeah, nope.

Anyway, that's a great, that was actually just a crazy movie, man. That was pretty neat. They pulled off. I was just like, again, that's my style of stuff. Like, just, yeah. That's a, I didn't want to stand on that, But I'm glad you said that because that's exactly what I was going to get to, you know, especially coming into shows late, being a second unit a lot of times or even rigging or gaffing. You're around a lot of styles, but maybe you're not honing your own style.

Did you have you come to that yourself or do you think you're kind of amorphous in that regard? Is there like something that you're kind of gravitated towards look-wise that really gets you going or you think is like your shit? Yeah, I mean, again, I think what kept me going was the fact that I am a bit of a chameleon and I can give you your show without, you know, I don't have to do exactly, I don't need a lighting plot to kind of give you the same book because I have that technical background. A lot of the early shot, a lot of the early stuff that I'd get as a DP was second units and or insert units or whatever. And they'd just be like, okay, go over there. We're going to give you a quarter to the amount of people and a quarter of the amount of gear and the accord of the amount of time,

but we still want the main unit look out of it. You're just kind of like, holy smokes. And if you can survive through that, I mean, I think you can, you know, eventually surpass it. And but knowing how to match looks, knowing how to, I mean, that kept me working, which was great. And again, I think, I think kung fu, what I loved about it, again, I think it was all because of the creatives in the network, um, they didn't expect me to match the show per se. Like, I put my own feather in it and it was very, um, it was very me. Like it wasn't, I didn't really try. Like, I mean, I, of course I'm going to give them Kung Fu. Like, that's kind of the show is already

established and it is what it is. No, it's seven now. Well, that's what I mean, right? Because you don't, you can't, you've got to be, it's, it is, it's a hard balance, right? And you, you can't, you can't, Even season three, like I was pushing for a wider aspect ratio because we were shooting two to one with the anamorphic lenses, but the cast was growing. Like all of a sudden we had these other storylines that were joining our main cast. And I'm like, I would have loved to have been able to have a wider aspect ratio to showcase that. But because they'd already shot two seasons out, you know, at the two to one aspect ratio, they weren't really interested. So I ended up getting some primo close focus lenses to the wider aspect, like to get the 14.5 and a half and 17 and a half primo. And then I got the whole close focus series so that we could start like really wide in a corner and then kind of move the camera into it over and move it into a single.

And then to have that dramatic, you know, act out push at the end. And so they only got a 35 mil lens like right up against the person's nose and it's all still sharp. Thank you. But the, but the, again, it's like, it is, it's hard to, I'm trying to think if there's anything that I've been able to kind of really push. Like that's right now I'm looking for like an indie feature so that I can really, like that, you know, I did Dead Shack with Peter Rick and that was a lot of fun, but it was, again, budget and time constraints and all the rest of it and just the, you know, out in the wood.

in the middle of the night. But I thought that show ended up being okay for all the things that we were given, all the obstacles in our path. I'd love to get something from ground zero and build it up. Because I think a lot of the stuff that I've done in bigger things have been, I was doing second units so they hired, like that was Helstrom. I was doing these giant second units. And by episode five, by episode four, I think they'd realize that they needed an alternating DP.

And I'd done all these. I'd done all these crazy second units for them and they just kind of looked over and they're like, hey, you're pretty good at doing this. Like, why don't you, you want to, you want to hop on and do alternating episodes? And again, it was just like, Bernard, was great. He's such a, he's another just amazing painter with light and just, he's done some giant, giant projects that I just admire a lot. So it was, it was always, always a challenge.

But I would love to dig my teeth into my own, like start from scratch. start from zero. Totally. TV, I mean, I don't know. I'm on the fence right now. I love TV, but I just wrapped, whatever, 15 months of network television, so I'm a bit, I'm kind of looking for. Studge your legs a little bit.

Yeah, just get those, get those feelers out, maybe see if I can pull out and pull a movie out of my repertoire. Totally. I was wondering, because I did second unit on a feature. last year and hadn't before and the I didn't understand just how little you can be given to do to like in my case shoot the complete reverse of a scene and then I was doing a bunch of like inserts and then at one point I got to shoot an entire separate scene myself which was cool but yeah shooting like the reverse of a scene with not I got a tube a tube I got a Titan

too and i was like i own lights i could have brought so and a lot of times you'll have the you'll have the you'll have the mean you know one of the main producers as your director and then they're going hey well why doesn't this look like what we did you know on the other side and and so you have to answer to that and and luckily did you make it through obviously yeah and like i saw the film in a theater and not only is there a lot of my footage in that movie but it does look it matches completely so i didn't fuck up but i just oh that that speaks volumes man you did you like i don't think i don't think a lot of people really understand what that takes i was sweating bullets but uh being on this side of it i was wondering if you had any advice for people like me uh and me basically

about kind of making those things look with limited gear in your experience making them match the better thing i was i just went light meter color meter and half of it was outside so it was like Well, again, I think a lot of the times, like the first thing I do is, I mean, you know, and again, you don't get scouting or you don't get, you know, prep meetings or anything for those second units either, but looking at what the location's already doing, I think a lot of the times will help. And if you can, if you can talk to the director and really get the angles of, you know, try to showcase what the, what's already naturally happening, I think that's going to help you. And I think taking away light right now, especially these days, like, shaping light and taking light away, because on those big second units and stuff, like, they're not giving you time, they're not giving you equipment, they're not giving you gear, they just weren't. And again, the cool thing is that you know that everything is going to make it into the film, because they have a way. Yeah, it has to. No, they have a slug that they have to fill.

So, and that's what I actually liked about second unit was that it's usually big stunts, big, you know, explosions, car chases, you know, whatever it may be, but it's also boring inserts and stuff at times, but you know that everything you shoot is going to make it into the movie. But so just, I think that, you know, for people that are new, that are trying to get that, that leg in, just, I think just be aware that you are going to get kind of bust chucked in a way, right? Like you're going to be given nothing and that you're going to have to produce what main unit produced with all the toys and all the people and all the time. And the best thing to do is to try to look at what you're given in terms of like your source material and utilize the roof in terms of like, again, I would take more light away

than I would try and force it because you're not going to be given the condors and the extra people and whatever. So just try and or go, you know, again, try and talk them into longer lenses and taking the you know it was just forcing the audience to look at the things that you need to to showcase what they did to fill that slug and just understanding what that slug really needs and that's again hopefully you have a I've been very fortunate in terms of working with great producers but I happen like I think it's in a movie called the miracle season it was at the time live like line and really good story I

Helen Hunt was, and William Hurt. Oh, wow. You know, which is really cool. It's a true story volleyball movie. But I remember on day one, like, the producer that was directing looked at me, and he's just like, why? Like, what's going on here? Like, why isn't this working and blah, blah, blah?

And I had to talk a second, and I had to take a deep breath. And I took the blame. I'm like, hey, look, you know, like, I'm just rolling into this. And this is, I'm sorry, it's taking a bit longer than we were expecting, but don't worry. You'll give me 20 minutes. So we'll be up and running, but I tried to take it all on my own, take it on myself. And I think that, and I think that he respected that.

I think he's like, I didn't throw the crew under the bus. I'm not like, hey, look, I'm not, you know, I didn't try to make excuses. I just kind of was like, look, you know, this is unfortunate, but it's going to take time, give me 20 minutes, and we'll be up and go. So it was, and then from then on, it was great. I did the whole movie. Like, we were always shooting like second unit, splinter unit, car driving scenes. And it was just a bunch of stuff.

And again, it was fun. Yeah. Well, I'm going to have to let you go because I've already taken up two of your hours. That's fine. That's good. Thank you very much. Thanks for making the time. Of course.

Well, thank you for making the time. But I end the podcast with the same two questions. And I've been interviewing a lot of TV people. So this first one doesn't quite make sense, but we're going with it. If you were to program a double feature with Kung Fu, season three, imagining it's one project, I guess, what would the other film or television

be? Film or show. If I was going to match something with season three, man, that would be hard. That's hard. I mean, I... It doesn't have to be the same. It can be completely different. No, I know. I know. I think that.

I really should have, because I know that this questions were coming, and that's something... Oh, all right. They didn't have tried for us. Man, I'm trying to think because, like, the show is like such a, the show is such a weird, such a weird show in a way. Like, it's so, it's so, it's such a family drama with, with great fighting. And, and, but again, there's that mysticism side that kind of, like, it kind of throws you for a loop that I don't, you know, like, so it's like trying to find something that would kind of, you know, like, so it's like trying to find something that would kind of, marry that like what was that show what was the show uh oh i don't know that that would

work either there's that fighting there was a the woo uh woo assassins like years ago uh oh i don't know that one yeah i don't i'm because again like i think everything everywhere kind of that's the fighting of the family and the mysticism it does too and i think everything everywhere would be kind of in the same i mean everything everywhere is is is absurd, which I love it, right? Like it's absurdity for the sake of, but it's artistic absurdity. Yeah. So I think it's amazing and it's just kind of like, I think, you know what, I hate to,

I think everything everywhere, because it really has that, it has that grounded family kind of in personal, you know, drama in terms of just like keeping it where it is. I would, I think you're right. I think that's, that's kind of, it's, it's, it's, it's not. not it's not as far-fetched well but it is like it really because if you've bought if you've made it to season the end of season two of kung fu and you're going to start season three you bought into this this crazy sci-fi mystic realm that that um you're you're in for the ride like by the time you get to season three and if you don't you don't get into season three by by not being on board with the

the sci-fi aspect. So I think, I think, I think that would be a good, that would be a good pairing for sure. There you go. Yeah. It's weird. It's funny because like CW shows are not necessarily made for quote unquote me, you know, let's say. But they've always had it done a really good job of making stuff. Like, like I remember the first few seasons of Arrow, like being really involved in that. And that is a, that is a soap opera for kids. And I was like, in college like, yeah, fuck yeah, let's do this. Let's go there. Yeah, CW makes some good. It's cool to hear that they're letting you, like,

kind of push the boundaries, too. Because, you know, I guess you got to compete with the old Netflix and stuff, so you might as well get weird. I think so, and again, I think it was in the writing, and it was in the trust that the creatives gave me. I mean, I was really, I was just, again, I was kind of waiting for the letter and saying, hey, thanks for coming out, kid.

We really appreciated you in all your efforts. But here's the door, you know, like that times, because I really pushed almost, I really pushed almost, I really pushed almost too far, and they let me, which I think ended up in success, personally. Totally. Final question. Everyone asks about good advice. I want to know what the worst piece of advice you ever got was.

Oh, man. Worst piece of advice. I think you got me again. I don't. This one's usually a big thinker. I'm going to start including it in the emails. Maybe it is to start going through it. I don't know that I've gotten a lot of advice as to, you know, per se.

Like, it's interesting how it works. Like, I think, I mean, worst piece of advice. I don't even know that it's advice. Like, but just know that everyone is. everybody wants to be a D.P. So everyone's, everyone wants your job. When you're looking around on set, almost everybody wants to be the director or everybody wants to be the D.P. And everyone is a D.P. You know, in their spare time. Right. And just, just don't, don't, don't, don't assume that, that is all, um, yeah, if, if, if, if there is no, if no one's talking to

you about the picture, then the pictures are probably, pretty good. And I wish somebody gave me that advice. If they start talking, if they start talking to you about the picture, it's usually because they don't like what they're seeing. So, like, I don't know, like, I guess that's good advice, but. That'll work. We'll take it. Okay. But it's just like, if, if there's no, if they're not talking to you about the picture, then you're pretty golden. But if, if they, if all of a sudden they start talking about the picture, it's usually not good stuff. So just, just. They're over your shoulder at the monitor. You're like, wow, that's interesting.

The person that kind of is spending a little bit more time, you know, at the monitor, you kind of give them a side eye button. That's about all. I don't think of that. I don't think I've really been given like an actual bad piece of advice, which I don't know if that's lucky or if that's like that. I mean, that. I've had a couple of people ask me. And then I had to, I realized like, oh, I can't remember any advice because I never took it.

It didn't matter if it was good or bad. I was just so like, not that I thought I was amazing or anything, but I just always I would take people's advice as like a generalized thought. And then I'd be like, I'll see how that applies to my life. But first, I'm going to throw my head first, you know, face first into this wall. And then your advice to wear a helmet's going to, oh, I guess I should have, you know. Well, again, I don't think everyone has your best interest in mind. and you really have to trust your own instincts, right?

Like you really, it's a job where you have to, good or bad, right or wrong, you have to trust your instincts to make a decision and forge forward with it. And everyone has to buy into your instincts enough that they're going to run off the cliff with you when you, you know, go ahead and when you forge forward. So it's, yeah, that's all I've got. Fair enough. Well, we'll wrap it up there. Thanks so much for chatting me, man. That was a lot of fun. And when you finally get that indie, we'll have you back on it. We'll talk about that.

Thank you. No, that would be great. I'm looking forward to many more chats. And thanks. Yeah, this was great. Appreciate it. Awesome. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the Ethad Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Trax Brand company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.