Frame & Reference Podcast - 91: "Harlem" Director Shea William Vanderpoort

Episode Date: May 4, 2023

On this weeks episode, Kenny talks with director Shea Vanderpoort about the hit comedy "Harlem." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 91 with Shay Vanderport, director of season two, episode six and seven of Harlem. Enjoy. Yeah, you, uh, you watching anything good recently? Oh, dude, it sucks. I have not really had time to watch anything, um, unless it's on a plane. Um, as I saw, decision to leave on a plane, which is not the ideal place to watch it,

but it was still awesome. Um, and then, like, I can just pop in a couple episodes of like an anime or something. Like, you're not even on the last of us, right? right now no oh my god i can't i'm trying to block it all out i don't want to hear anything all i just keep hearing about it's how amazing it i'm just like trying to nod so okay okay i'll jump on that i'll jump on that i the dangerous part is that the discover section of instagram because yeah you know what i mean like if you're a film twitter's leave ours okay i'll yeah i'll completely stay off that but it's like you see just one image and you just it doesn't even have to

for a long time. It doesn't have to have any context. If you're a filmmaker, you're like, oh, God, I just, I know what happens now. Damn. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, stuff. Or not even just a filmmaker, just somebody that, that kind of understand the stories, structure, stuff like that. Yeah. I got a 15-hour flight to Geneva next week. And so I'm, so I'm sitting here going like, man, I haven't been out of the country in 15 years. So all my flight. have been, you know, one, one to four hours. So usually I just take a nap. You know, I'm pretty good at that, you know, window above the wing, head down, out,

you know. And so now I sit here thinking like, what do I download onto the iPad? Like, what am I supposed to watch? Oh, I guess they have the screen built into the back of the, I didn't even think about that. They usually have the screen. Sometimes it doesn't work. And that's not cool. Oh, I'm on that.

Did you say 15 hours? Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, oh, shit, I don't have anything to do now. Yeah. What I did do is I bought, this is in the legal gray area of life. But this company, Anbernik, makes these Game Boy looking things. But it's just a Linux computer.

And so I've got like a few thousand ROMs on this Game Boy. And so it's like all the Pokemon, all the metal. slugs, all the NES games, all the way up to PlayStation, the first one. Oh, my God. So I'm sitting here going, like, I can at least kill eight hours banging through like Pokemon Emerald or, you know, the first Metal Gear Solid or something like that. Oh, my God. That's incredible.

Yeah, and I was one of the best experiences I had playing a game was we were filming with this music nonprofit, and we were, it was just me and my buddy, and we were just filming like interviews and stuff and kind of documenting what we're doing in, it was like Paris to Germany, somewhere in Germany, Binkles, Beal, Germany. And Breath of the Wild had just come out and the switch. And I happened to land one in Paris. And it was just like, oh, we're taking a bus to Germany. So I played that thing the entire time. then on the plane all the way back. And it was the quickest, you know, 12 hours, 11 hours that I had ever experienced

because I was so engrossed in this game. And it was the first time, you know, playing on a screen that was like that big. Right. You know, kind of just, it was weird being into like a vessel traveling playing in this world. I don't know. It was just pretty cool. So hopefully you have that same experience. Yeah.

Breath of the Wild is a great game to kill time. too because that thing goes any Zelda game that's going to be a hard one to turn into a fucking miniseries like which game do you play i don't know i mean which game do you try to turn i don't know that's probably awkward enough time yeah yeah yeah it's gotta be that that's a clean that's that's that's the one yeah that's got to be the one that and you could season two could be mature as mass were you a big gamer growing up growing up yeah music and film you know growing up i was a big gamer, you know, just like Nintendo stuff, mostly, you know, Mario, all that. Always the Mario Zelda is like, I have to play those just because it's like such a big

part of growing up. And it's also, I feel like because a lot of those early Nintendo games, they feel like they established, like, the foundation of what games were going to be. So, like, if you just are good at Mario, you're pretty much good at. any platformer, like, from then until eternity kind of thing. Because sometimes I'll pick up games and, like, my niece or my nephew or somebody will be like, how are you so good at this already? Like, you just played it.

I'm like, because, dude, I played Mark. Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's the bones, you know. But yeah, yeah, all that street fighter is a big one. My license plate says Hadoogan. So a lot of people didn't know when I'm at all. Or wherever, yeah. So, yeah, those were the big ones. I mean, just that.

And it actually played a part when I was trying to figure out, like, professionally what I wanted to do. It's like I knew I didn't want to program games or anything like that. But I was like, I like operating a camera. I like video games. What can I do? And I sort of found my way into this video game media site, IGN. They like cover video games and stuff. Yeah, and it was really kind of a dream job.

You know, like I already got into film. I was like just freelancing, doing whatever I could. And then found my way to them doing, I was like, I think it was like a true blood red carpet thing. And I was just filming all the people doing interviews. And it was crazy because one of the years I did Comacom. And I think it paid like. I think it was like 500 bucks, but they were like, oh, you have to have this kind of light. And the light was 500 bucks.

And I was like, it was like my first gig. And I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not getting paid, but that's all. It's okay. I got this. Like, you know, this is what I want to do. And those were the early, early days, you know, of like the DSLR stuff. And it was crazy because I was trying to make a new reel found this file of like my old old stuff and it was one of those kind of red uh it was at the step and repeat lines right

but it was the year i don't know what year it was but it was like twilight so i had the whole cast of twilight uh loop looper so i had freaking like riot johnson and um just would be like levit oh nine 10 then somewhere around there that sounds right that sounds right yeah that sounds right so yeah around then and it was like it was crazy because it was it was it was Every big film, like, I think, what was that movie with the, the Kaiju movie, that Pacific Rim, yes, saw the cast and, like, director, it was just, it was crazy because going back, I'm like, man, that's a, that's a journey, you know, like, being the guy on the carpet, like, just holding the camera. But, yeah, that was a long way to get to, yes, I was a gamer. And like that was kind of my dream job for a while. And I was gigging and thought I would do it full time until I realized I really wanted to do more narrative stuff.

And I felt like if I locked myself into that kind of job that I wouldn't be able to find the time to do it because whatever I'm doing, I really want to dedicate myself to that, you know, and not be splitting and having the work be affected. uh because of it that's that's literally uh kind of the terms i had to come to this this year was like all right i've been doing plenty of corporate work but uh you know you get a taste of narrative stuff and you're like i'd rather be doing that all the time but those jobs are a lot harder to get than the corporate shit dumps all the time oh my god they are you know i i think the cool thing and you know have you found this is when i finally realized for the longest time I was like, what do you guys want to, what do you want to do on the corporate stuff? You know, and I just kind of decided like, all right, what if I just kind of told them what

I, what I think they should do? Like, and here's a good idea and always shifted toward the narrative, shifted towards something that could help me be a better filmmaker, whether it be like film or television or short film, anything like that. And I found that once I did that, it was so much more rewarding. And I also gained a bunch of new skills all of a sudden. Did you have that kind of experience? Or have you ever done?

Yeah. I think the clients that I've had, luckily haven't been too, like, I've had a few super corporate clients where they hired me to execute a function. But I think luckily the way that I positioned myself early on, they were kind of like, well, you're the creative. You tell it like they'll have a framework and then I'll punch it out, which yeah, especially nowadays, I am doing a lot more like, hey, I know you guys want to do this interview. But what if we, the whole thing, do it in voiceover and we like film, you know, this important, you know, it's, oh, dude, the worst right now that I have no control over is everyone when you're like, all right, we're doing an interview separate from what I just said. We're doing an interview. Can you send me some photos of the office?

Like, so I can get a good idea of like where the windows are, what a good background would be, whatever. And then they always send you a photo of their conference room because in their head, that's where interviews happen. Conversations happen in the conference room. And they're like, that's the only place we can clear out. And you're like, mother, it's like they're in bathrooms for narratives. Like having to like doing a narrative in a bathroom is the worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, bathrooms. There needs to be an entire film school, like a class in college, just on lighting a bathroom. Because one whole angle is dead because of the mirror. Yeah, I know. That whole thing's gone and then you're always in a corner and you're just trying to get that separation from the background somehow, you know, or something.

I don't know, just trying to make it interesting. But, yeah, bathrooms are very tough. There's a web series that worked on where we got kicked out of our location. It was like this bar restaurant type thing and there was a square dance class that was coming into the space we were filming and we're like, we just have one more scene in the bathroom. We just use the bathroom. They're like, no, you guys have been here. You got to get out of here. We, I mean, we didn't have money. Like we were just making this on our own. Right. And so someone went to the McDonald's across the street and I was like, McDonald's is not going to let us use their bathroom. Are you serious? And, and they did. They're like, dude, they're cool. They let us do it.

And I was like, not very professional, but I'll take it. Someone somewhere slipped somebody up 50. The manager at the McDonald's, hey, I'll give you 50 bucks. I can go better than doing heroin in the fucking bathroom at McDonald's. Like half McDonald's. I didn't read somewhere, going back to something you said earlier about like having to buy the light. I had read that early on,

it was special, I think, I guess when you were working on awkward black girl, that you were just using all of your income to buy new equipment to like keep funding and get better. Oh, man. And so I've done the same thing in my not so much anymore because now I actually have money that goes past what shit costs. But I was wondering if you would still do that today. If you would or if you would follow the traditional advice of stop doing that rent when you need it.

I have a renting problem. I just don't like doing it because I think the way my brain works is like if I were to rent this a couple of times, I could own it. And I think it just comes from sort of the DIY, like, indie spirit of it all. Just like, hey, let's just use what we have. You know, especially during opera Black Girl, I just had my camera and like a ring light, you know, and then I remember showing up. And I was kind of like, okay, where's the crew and stuff? And it was just me. And I'm like, oh, it's like, we're doing it like this. Okay. Which was cool because it's like, that's how I've done it. So I just didn't know at first, you know. And so we all were just trying to get it done.

You know, yeah, I just can't do the renting thing. It's funny you say that because I was just in New York and I went to B&H. And I went to the youth department and got this like like a, Lens. Oh, that's a nice one. Yeah, it's like an arm. Yeah, the one four. And it was crazy because it was like pretty good price-wise.

And then they're like, oh, yeah, I'll ask my manager if we can give you a deal. And I was like, oh, you're already, it's already a deal. Like, thank you. So, yeah, I would definitely stick to the purchasing because I'm one of those guys that it's like, the annoying guy that always has his gear with him, like wherever he goes, a restaurant. Yeah, it's like, I'm testing. I'm doing tests. I'm doing tests. And people are like, oh, my God. It just, there's something about that ownership, you know, increasingly and where we're just always renting everything, like our subscriptions to our

services. And, you know, there's even like car rental new, new kinds of methods of, like, renting cars now where it's like instead of owning it you just rent from a company which could work out i don't know that's a whole other subject but there's something about owning it and it being yours almost like when i played music it's like you have your guitar oh this is guitar you know you kind of form a relationship with it because it's an extension of you and that's how i feel about the cameras you know and i like to have it there and when i'm renting it it's like it's super cool because it's something you can't afford to own, but then I think of all the money that's going into it. And it's always that balance of, okay, where is this going to land? It's going to be on the

internet. What is the cost versus the quality kind of thing? Like, is it good enough? So, yeah, I always stick to it. Like the first time, I always wanted, you know, a higher-end cinema camera, but it was like, yeah, right, you know, for the longest time. And then once the Komodo came out, it was like, oh, like, or the, you had the black magic even before that. It was like, oh, wow, okay, cool. This is pretty approachable. And then with the Komoda, that was the first, like, red I bought because it wasn't past that threshold.

And I think also because I think I knew deep down, like, I like to shoot, but that's not my final goal. Like, it was always to be a director. and it was like, how much am I going to spend? You know, because I really, I admire those people that buy the big boys, you know, and they're like, all right, here we go. Like, my life is on this. That's cool.

I love that because they know that's what they're going to do. And I wasn't sure. And I also knew that ultimately I did want to direct and having a bunch of gear was like, you know, what happens to it after, you know, if I hit a good, kind of a good wave of, directing a number of shows. Yeah, the way I think, because I bought like a C500 Mark 2 when it came out. And so that's been good because it's like, in my opinion, that thing is the ultimate Swiss Army knife of cameras. You know, it's got full frame.

It's got raw. It's got compressed. It can crop in. It can, you know, tons of EF lenses, PL mount, the whole thing. But I wouldn't, I can't see myself buying a. quote unquote better camera than that like i've interviewed people who are like yeah i just bought a venice too and i'm like what that's well okay like that's either you're getting obviously i i can't imagine they bought it outright unless they've got rich grandparents or something but like yeah that

that type of person i assume is renting that thing out like i would buy a venice to just park at a rental house if i just wanted constant side income you know but um yeah there's definitely a threshold for my like purchasing of your lights. I tend to buy just what I need, you know? That's like the last thing people buy. I'm always so baffled. I'm like, you have this amazing camera, but then you like don't have any lights. Crazy. Lights and lenses too. Sometimes they don't buy lenses and I'm like, you know, the cool thing about those two things is like they're not, the cameras are all going to just decrease in value so quickly. And the you know, lights like, I mean, shit, like the first lights I bought still look great, you know.

Maybe not my ring light. I think that thing died. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think that's an amazing choice. And like, does that have, there's always such little things too. Like, does that have built in NDs? The C500 has 10 stops of ND. Oh, shit. Wow. Dude, I, and I used it because I literally on a gig, a couple, like two weeks ago, I was shooting in the desert, so it's very bright. And I had sumer rays on there, speaking of lenses, sumer rays are fucking gorgeous, wide open. So, T1.3. I was, I was at eight to ten stops at all times. Oh, my God.

I got to see this. I'll send you some, uh, some screenshots from my, I'm still grading it, but, uh, I'll send you some screenshots. from my, I'm still grading it, but I'll send you some screencaps. They look. Oh, that's sick. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, there's so many minute details when you're filming and it's easy to, you know, to kind of rely on equipment, uh, equipment jump into it and then realize like, oh shit, like I don't

have any NDs. Oh, I can't do black magic. The image is great, but I need those NDs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's whatever works for you and your needs. it's like it's it's kind of like when people ask me like oh what's the best camera what's the

best phone what's the best this i'm like seriously we're in an age where like honestly just get any of them are amazing but you have to know what's going to work for you and and you're so right with that swiss army thing it's like because you probably just have that body you know and whatever like little attachments and stuff uh and accessories but i'm thinking about all the other stuff that I'm packing, even on a small shoot, it's like, oh, shit, I have my square filters, this and d, that, indeed, this, and d, that, and, you know, and it's just, it's so much crap, and it's really nice to have it all in that system. And I remember going to the Hollywood unveiling of like the C series, the Cadence C series. Oh, when the 300 came out? Yeah, yeah. And it was funny because

we were so fresh off the 5B. That's all we had used. And so in Canada, announced that we're like, all right, cool, it's going to be affordable. And then I remember the base for like, oh, that's not affordable for us. We kind of feel like, but it's still, it's still sweet. There's like 13 grand, wasn't it? I think so. Yeah, really blew our minds because we thought it would be more in the range. I don't think we thought it was going to be 5D range, but we thought it was going to be more like standard camcorder around that time. I want to say it was like four grandish, like the Panasonic stuff. I can't remember that name. I still have an AF 100 in my...

Oh, my God, dude. That's the workhorse right there. I just brought it out. It still looks pretty decent. It's not too bad. I'm a little crunchy in the highlights, but... That's cool. I'm glad it's it still works and all that.

I haven't sold... I was just talking to a guy on Twitter, Eric Nassau. And, yeah, I still own every camera I've ever bought. But I've only bought like 10, including photo bodies. I've only bought like 10 cameras in my life, so. Okay. Yeah, I usually try to sell them for super cheap to someone in my family. Like, luckily, my brothers do some film stuff too.

Like, they're also filmmakers. And it's like, I can't let it go. Like, I want to hold on to it. You know, so I'm like, hey, can you buy this for Super Chief? And they're like, yeah, I'll take it. So we all get the benefit. You know, I don't lose it, you know, and just say, buy forever. So many memories too, you know, it's like, it's hard for me. I get really

sentimental about like the memories attached to the camera. So if it, if you just sell it off, I think your analogy to guitars is like actually perfect. I, uh, I gave my friend my, my old Nikon D90 because I had bought an XT3. That's how that's how far apart. I buy cameras. bought an XT3 and I was like you know what she's trying to get into photography here's my D90 it's not great but it'll get you somewhere it's better than you know whatever points you choose and then I saw very quickly after that she bought a more modern camera and I was like oh whatever and my friend Chase was like dude you got to get that thing back and I was like watch and he goes dude you shot everything you were I worked at Red Bull for eight years he's like you shot everything you ever shot there everything you shot in college and a little bit of high school like goes Go fucking get that back. And so I was like, yeah. And I did get it back.

It's like covered in gaff tape. It's all jacked up. But it did occur to me. I was like, I didn't think I was going to be sentimental about that piece of junk, but like I am. I still have my XL too.

Same thing. It's like, I don't need this, but I want to find it, you know? You have to, man. I mean,

that's that's when everything's gone. That's what we got. You know, it's cool. Actually, shit, you're reminding me. I think,

I think my friend Nick has my 5B. that I let him use and then he upgraded. I got to get that back. Get it back, dude. Give me my camera back. I did all the awkward black girl stuff on that. So I got to get that back.

And that, yeah, that's, that's OG good too. All the stuff I made, no one's going to see. Opera black girl. Launched,

launched careers. Hey, you never know. You never know. Plus, the 5D Mark 2 is like, that's a, that's a,

that's a Hall of Fame camera. Man, it changed, it changed my life, you know, It really gave access to everybody. And then I think that was something that was so hard, like the barrier for entry,

just to be a filmmaker, it's crazy the times we're at now. It's like, mass of these kids. They're making stuff like, damn, slow down. You know, like they get a good image like that. Back in the day, it was like impossible, you know. The guy started with my buddy Steve, It's like, you know, we were doing stuff, you know, we're like best friends. You're like making films with all our friends and that's all we did with all our time.

And we look back on it and we're like, man, if we had the stuff that these, that these kids have now, it's like, it would be a whole other like world for us, you know, because we, well, him specifically at that time. Like, I didn't really know much about film. I was just kind of having fun, but he, looking back now, I was like, he, I was like, dude, how did you have it figured out back then? Like, you knew how to shoot stuff. There was intention. The camera movements were like, they would be flashing stuff, but they'd make sense. And, but like all our stuff is like 480, you know, it's like grainy, that, yeah, all of it, it's just so limited by the technology. So it's like, nothing was in 24p. Everything was 30.

No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah and it's it you I get a little sad about it like man we just had we had now or have now it it would kind of like stand the test of time which is tough like it's sort of does but you it's at that point where it just looks like digital uh like age to digital imagery right you know um which is kind of kind of a bummer um but yeah 5d man i do i do find because i've either talked about or think about this often, but it's like, if we had, you know, a C-300 in when we were younger, and also I think the pace of new cameras coming out and how good they all look. If we were in that position, would we, as I've seen online, get distracted by

the shiny toy? Because I think the thing that made certain early internet, let's say, web series, or videos, anything like that good, is that because there was such a large barrier to entry, you tried a lot harder. You knew you had to come correct. You know, at the attempt that maybe someone would give you a roll of 16 after seeing this and you could make something cool, you know?

Dude, oh, my God, my first short goes out of the game. No, yeah, I would definitely get distracted, for sure. I came into filmmaking from a tech side before I came, before I came around to, like, cinema. I agree. Oh, I'll take a shit real quick. I'm going to pop. No, I totally agree. I think that I would get distracted and I would definitely be diving into the tech a lot.

Like, oh, what could this camera do? What are the possibilities? Oh, this will that allow us always validating a way. way for me to buy a new camera somehow or like you know trade in the one that I have I think it would be a distraction um for sure like I would be distracted because I did that throughout the whole like 5D era um all the Sony stuff they said it like once they started doing oh they's I thought you're going to say like the F3s no the A7S the F3 is cool too I haven't had too much of a chance to play with it, but just that whole like low light craziness that Sony introduced. And it was always like

every time they announced something, I'm diving in. Oh, we could do this. Oh, we could shoot high speed and low light. Oh, my God. You know, and I'm just hours focused on that. Getting distracted ultimately. And this kind of goes back to what you're saying about the Red Briss's own. What I realized was I can't compete financial. at all with any of these people, you know, like I've got insane, because my film stuff started right about the time that we had like started to buy a house, we lost it, I had like insane debt, see the loan debt, all this stuff. And it was like, well, I can't compete financially. It's just no way. I can't buy this expensive stuff. So what I'll trust.

is sort of my brain, I guess, my ideas, the thing that you can't really buy. Like, you can't buy ideas so much in terms of, like, creativity. And you can't buy hard work, really. Or, like, you can outwork people. You can, like, out-ide them. And that was kind of, like, all right, I'm going to bank on that because I don't have the finances to support, like, what I'm trying to do here in terms of equipment. So, I think owning the stuff was really helpful because if I could just understand this piece of equipment so well, then I could just get the best image out of it. That was one thing.

And I think banking on your ideas and kind of your brain power versus the equipment is good. And so, just going back to what we said, I think that, like, owning it is definitely the way to go, you know. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, depending on what you're trying to land. Well, and especially, like, the way I've always looked at is I will be sitting there, you know, bored or maybe inspired by something or just want to test something out. And it is nice to grab the tool you will ultimately use and test that thing. You know, all my equipment is in this walk-in closet in my office here. And yeah, it's just everyone's all. I'm like, oh, you know what?

And then I'll just go grab it and start playing around and test new lighting. And, you know, it's nice to have all that stuff and know your tools intimately. The thing that I've always quoted was Adam Savage from the Mythbusters, who said the way that he buys new. tools, and he's referring to like tool tools, you know, hammers, whatever, is to buy the cheapest one you can that serves the purpose. And then once you figure out what it gives you, it doesn't give you, to buy the best one you can afford. And I think that's the best way to go about getting anything. If you, like, I'll tell this to kids on Reddit all the time. Like whenever, hey, can someone recommend something like literally the cheapest one that you think looks interesting? Get that first.

And then once you know what you need, you'll know which one to upgrade to. Because everyone always goes, oh, I got $1,000. What should I get? And I'm like, first of all, no, nothing is $1,000. Yeah, it's, you know, Fuji XQ2, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. What I do think also that doing that kind of a byproduct of it is that it makes you better. It makes you have to, like what I found.

Was that because of the lack of dynamic range, the lack of latitude and all that stuff? You had to nail it, man. I mean, like, you really had to be on it. Like, you couldn't overexpose or it's looking bad. You couldn't under expose or it's getting grainy, whatever. And what I found was that a lot of people that were shooting on the higher-end cinema cameras, when they were given those tools, they would just totally. really kind of fuck up, you know, like bad.

I'm like, wait a minute, but you shot this. And, you know, when you're new, you don't know the whole process of, okay, these people are shooting raw, they're bringing it in, someone's correcting it, and then they're grading it. Just that whole pipeline, I wasn't really aware of it because I had gone to, the school I went to, I had finished, I ended up taking film, and then we shot on 16. team and we didn't do that process really we just kind of shot it okay cool here's my project you know um and not knowing that it's it's like you're thinking like oh how how come how are they

getting that look you know and and then when they're given i think when the playing field is level that's when it shows like where everyone with their actual baseline is where they exist you know skill-wise, and I found that a lot of people were just shooting on those cameras because they could kind of mess up, really, and just save it in the end. So I think when people use, like you're saying, either the cheapest one or the tool that they can afford, just learn that tool, you know. Yeah. And also I've noticed that like it starts to build, even if it's not what you want,

it starts to build an aesthetic, you know, if you use the same, like I shot the first five years of my career, I shot everything on the C100 Mark 2 and the Sigma 18 to 35. Everything. So there was a very consistent look to everything that I made because down to the lens, right? And also what the visual language I was using because it was a short zoom, you know, where I was putting the camera, the movements I was making, the amount of coloring you can do in an 8-bit 420 space. You know, having to nail it, I started building these picture profiles or a picture profile for that camera that I ended up selling if anyone wants to buy one.

But it's, I've had a bunch of kids come back to me and be like, yo, that picture profile breathed new life into my C-100 just because it's, again, did it out of necessity. I was like, I need this to look better, quicker because I was in half resolve at the time. It was all wasn't available. or it was too expensive or whatever. I just had very minor adjustments that I could make. Yeah, no, I mean, and that's the thing is a lot of times you don't have time for all of the whole process.

So that's awesome. Like, if you can save people time and get them to feel like their tool has a new kind of step, you know, and like, yeah, breathe new life into it, like you said, I think. That's kind of, that's invaluable, you know. Yeah. Well, it gets you excited to shooting it. New things get everyone excited. You know, I just got, I accidentally overbid on a GFX 50R.

Oh, dude. I like, yeah, that was a mistake. But I mean, I ended up paying about the same as they cost used. But at the time, at first I thought I was getting a deal. But granted, I'm poor now, but I'm really excited to shoot with this thing. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. That's something to be prepared for that at the whole like, oh, yeah.

Yeah. The ranch, yeah. What actually got you, because you said you wanted to be a director, but you started kind of as a DP. Was that just a stopgap to directing, or did DEPing kind of inform, oh, I want to be a director? Yeah, I think when I got into it, I sort of was like, let me try my hand at everything and then see where I best fit, you know, what of my best work is.

I think one of the things that I really am not a fan of. Um, is when people sort of occupy a space and they don't really want to be there. Um, it's just kind of like, why? Like, why are you doing that? You know, like, um, someone else wants to be here and would be the happiest, like human, uh, African athletes being in that position. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Um, and I get it if it's like you're working your way up, but then, but also like be that position that you are, you know, because that was another thing that was cool to learn was like, okay, if I'm editing, I'm editing for the director, like, as an end, like, I'm not going to try to be a director while I'm the editor. You know, maybe I can bring some ideas that a director would bring respectfully. But I don't want to, yeah, yeah, I don't want to step out of my lane. And so for me, it was really just a learning process and doing every, and working in every position that there was one to find

what I wanted to do but then two to make me the best of that that it would be because clearly like if you're a better if you're a good editor but you're a DP

it's gonna inform your shooting I've said that a million times yeah and you know I have run into that a couple of times where a DP may say like hey you won't use that

or that it doesn't make sense kind of chronologically, you know, and how the cut would work. But they're thinking very literally, you know, and I would say, no, no, no, it'll be fine. It can work because we're in film time. When we cut to the other location, we can rewind time by 20 seconds. So whatever happened on this end, doesn't have to happen exactly. And then in their head, they're like, wait, that doesn't make sense. But if you were to see it, they'd be like, oh, yeah, that totally works. So it is hard because when you're on set and you're just kind of running like that, it's hard to take your brain out of that and then zoom out and then see it from a broader

perspective. But I think my journey really started as like I just loved holding a camera. I loved framing. I think that came from my love of like comic books. I wanted to be an illustrator, the way up until, I would say, college. And then I kind of went to music and then went to film from that. But I think it was just holding the camera, operating. I just, I guess it's just like the camera nerd in me or something. Just like loving, having your hands on things and controlling it is really cool. So started that. And then that kind of brought me to cinematography. And I think with cinematography, like I really enjoy. it but I knew I just like there was something down there was like you know what like I love

this to a degree because I would learn more information and usually if I if I'm absolutely in love with something I I never want to stop learning about it or I'll never like kind of I'll never like hit that wall right yeah yeah it was cinematography I was like yeah that's cool like oh IR pollution what's that oh god okay I'm over this you know so just I don't want to have to know about all this stuff. Two stops, what? Like, we're getting out of count and all that. It's like, can I just look at the monitor?

So I knew, for me, I had to take the responsibility of, look, you love tissue, but if you're not feeling this new information and you're kind of like over it, you're not a D.P. Like, just that heart running out. And then with editing, I moved on to that because it was such a DIY thing, you know, it's like, I can't. can't just be paying people to edit or finding people to edit for free so that I learned that. And I really love that because you're telling the story.

You know, you're, you really realize like if you hang on a shot for a certain amount of time or if you show a certain image in sequence, move it around, it's a different feeling psychologically. So I kind of was just like doing all those jobs. and then I realized like, man, this is making me a better director. That was going to be my next question is like, how do all those things? Because that's people have described, not that I name drop him every fucking episode, but like people have said this about David Fincher that he like knows everyone's job pretty much better than they do.

So he's able to more efficiently dictate things or know when people aren't giving their, not their best let necessarily, but maybe they, he can push him a little further because he knows that they can actually do that, you know, because he can. Totally. You know what? And that is, I think, sort of, it's something that I probably don't really try to put out publicly, but I try to, in my own practice, that's what I'm thinking in my head, is like, look, I'm going to just, I can do this better than you.

So, like, you know, you used to do it, like, do a good job, you know. and I it's just because I respect I think ultimately what it comes from is I respect the titles so much and I respect the craft so much I think I just come from a time and place where if you say you're something like you better you better do it like you better be good at it you better be competent and like you should be able to show like a palpable like tangible thing. of what you're talking about. Like, if you say you're good at basketball, like you better show me that you're good basketball. You don't just, there's nothing more disappointing and frustrating and irritating and irritating,

hearing about how good someone is or how much they want to do something and they're just terrible or they don't do it at all. I'm sure you've heard that, seen that a million times. I find that people, people give their titles aspiration.

now, you know, which you would never, I shouldn't say never because I don't know, but like, I can't imagine someone going, oh, I'm a carpenter. And then you go, oh, what, you know, show me some stuff you've carpentered. And they're like, oh, I haven't yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough, man. Because I think you, we want to be respectful, but also like to just kind of endow yourself with a title is pretty, pretty crazy. Um, I had the hardest time saying I was a director. It still feels weird. Like, it's like, yeah, I'm a director at eight. Because I, it's like, I don't know, I want to, I need to earn it somehow. Like somebody needs to put a belt on me. That's a director or like, you know, like a. It needs to say I'd be nominated before your name.

Yeah, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the queen needs to put some swords on my shoulders or something. Like, I don't know. It's just, it feels weird because you don't ever want to feel like you're, you're putting yourself above anyone or anything like that. And I just respect so many people I've met throughout just this journey, I think. You know, like I've been lucky to, I shot a documentary for a woman named Ann Gorsso, and she is a director and an editor, and she edited three films for Francis Ford Coppola. And it was so crazy because, like, I was so nervous. I was so

the nervous to even show her a frame, you know, because she had worked with so many legendary cinematographers and directors and stuff. And, you know, just to work with someone like that, a buddy of mine, John Paul, horseman, he cut a bunch of Andrew Dominic's films, and he's done just such great work. He does all of, like, Billy Alice's music videos and stuff. And I see how hard they work. I see how much they focus on the craft without necessarily talking about it. And I just always respected that, you know, just how much they were about the work. But I have seen the negative side of doing the work and not talking about it. Yeah. No one knows you did it.

Well, that was something Tyler, the creator said, where he was like, and it's completely right. like people we all feel like shills when we're like hey I made this thing can you look at it because no one wants to that's supposed to be marketing's job why do I have to do it that's not my job especially these days they're like can you post about that on social it's like no you do it I hate the fucking thing yeah yeah but Tyler was like if if you're not your biggest fan like who's going to champion it you know and something I said a thing that time yeah and something I've said a million times is like, you know, your friends won't support you until they see strangers celebrating you. So you have to get past that barrier of your friends.

You telling your friends, ooh, I made this thing, they're not, they go, good for you. No one. My friends have bought more jewelry from my sister. My friends have bought more stuff for my sister than they've ever seen my stuff. Subscribe. None of my friends subscribe to my YouTube. Are you fucking killed? Come on, man.

Come on, sister. Oh, my God. That's crazy. You know what? Actually, that's such a cool, that's just something that is really important. And I think, like an important takeaway because it sounds like you and I are the same where we just want to do the work and like focus on that. And with Tyler saying that, I think I might have seen that.

And he was talking about like, he had done something. Yeah, like he had put out an album and he's like, it came out a year ago. And I'm still talking about it. It's like, yeah, man, I mean, if somebody at a successful and creative, prolific as that is, you know, being his biggest cheerleader and he's not too cool to share his stuff and say, hey, check this out. It's like from all of the different perspectives of like, I don't want to share this because I don't want to feel like I'm showing off or I don't want to share this because I just want to do the work. Whatever it is, it's kind of like throw that out and just you have to let people know. what you're doing. And I think if you know it comes from an honest place of just being happy to share what you work on, then like, fuck it, you know. Well, yeah, I think too, it's like when

you're not at a level. Like, I'm sure with like something like Harlem, it's easier to say, look, I made this thing for Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. Versus, hey, I made this short that's on YouTube, which makes, which I feel like if I were to be perfectly honest, probably feels more like, um, admitting that you're an amateur or admitting that you're not successful yet. Okay. But yes. Knowing people, oh,

my stuff that I put a lot of work into is only on YouTube, which of course is bullshit, but it's a real feeling. I mean, it's the same thing when we're talking about not saying that you're a DP or a director or whatever. It's like, how do you, on the other hand,

how do you tell people that's what you do or want to do? Like, what do you call yourself? I can, the director and training? You know, you know, yeah, no, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Because if you're like, you know, oh, hey, I directed this thing on Harlem. I was like this thing, Harlem on like Amazon, right? Versus. Is it on Amazon? Did I say Netflix? I fucked up. My bet. I think you said Netflix. Well, it's all good. I figured you were just talking about the bigger streaming services that people. Now, I was trying to name the specific one I was on. It's Amazon. It's Amazon. Yeah, yeah, it's Amazon. Hopefully Netflix is next. Maybe.

you're predicting the future. I'm doing Netflix thing. Hey, there are PR people listen to this. I'm friends with Netflix. They, you know. Hey,

yeah, there we go. There we go. Yeah, yeah. I think I totally agree with you. There's like a status thing, you know, and I just,

I think it just depends on the person. And it's probably just best to ignore all that, you know, and just focus on doing a good job and doing your work. Because now that you're saying that, it reminds me up when we were doing awkward black girl. And so many people would, you know, they would try to find something to knock it down. You know, like, oh, it's just on YouTube. Oh, the sound is bad.

Oh, it doesn't look that good. Those who don't know, this is with Issa Ray. This is not like some, this eventually became a thing. Yeah, as an awkward black girl, you know, um, starring Issa Ray and written and produced by Tracy Oliver did, you know, Girls Trip at Harlem, at Girls Trip 2 is coming out. Our new movie, The Blackening, just a trailer came out. I mean, they're just, they're both like these colossal, you know, pillars of talents.

Creativity and talent, yeah. And we all started with no connections, like just let's do web series together. and we didn't have money, you know, we were like barely affording anything and we were all gigging on the side just trying to make money. I was shooting anything and everything that came my way, events, wedding, like conferences, interviews, whatever, you know. And we did have that, it was like a stigma. Like, because now, I mean, even streaming was a stigma back then. right you kind of brought me back yeah i forget yeah it was like poop oh that it was worse than straight to DVD yeah yeah yeah yeah which is insane when you think about it now i mean

and only in like 10 years it only took uh probably less than 10 years for it to go oh you're online to um like like dr horrible singalong blog i think i name dropped that like also yeah but like that was what like 2000 that was the writer's strike so that might have been like oh five actually But even then, people were like, oh, my God, Neil Patrick Harris is doing the internet. This is particularly, like, that guy's a magician. He'll fucking, he'll do your eye bat. Oh, how far he's fallen. He's on the internet.

Yeah, I mean, you're right. There's always these stigmas in these things. And I just was like, look, if, here's the crazy part. I'm doing TV, you know, like, like Amazon, it's also a universal show. I just did a Disney thing right before that. And man, there's no difference. Like, it's a bigger crew. It's a bigger budget.

But the craft is the same. You know, I kind of always attribute it to like, it's hard for me not to attribute it to something like a, like a fight, I guess, or like, you know, training. It's sort of like you're just getting all these skills. And then it's to bring. it into this sort of fight or battle or whatever and um it's like you know whether you're fighting i guess on a big in a ring in an arena or an octagon in an arena or like a small

local show on in like an indian casino or something it's like you're still fighting you know it's like it's not different um there it's a bigger stage there's more lights, there's more funding, but a fight is a fight, you know, and it's the same thing. It's like, it's not different. It's actually in a lot of ways easier because you have so much more help, you know, like there's so much more help. It's harder in other ways. There's a lot of pressure, a lot of just planning, and you kind of notes and things like that. But it comes with the territory, you know, and there's a lot more freedom in doing your own stuff. And you actually, it comes out right away.

Like sometimes they're heartbreaking things. I was just at a DGA meeting. And they, one of the members said that they shot this entire show. It was the best work of her career. And then they just decided like, oh, it's not going to air kind of thing. And it's like, dude, no way. And it's like, why can't they just? I'm sure there's a real reason, but like, why can't they just put that on YouTube?

Fuck it. Like, if you're not going to release it from money, release it for free. Yeah, I don't know. I'm still that kind of stuff. I'm learning all about, you know, the whole industry and stuff. And it's a different place. But it really is similar, just bigger, I guess, and more things. And something, too, that had occurred to me is like when we were talking about, oh, like the Gaffrey,

wants to be a DP or the fucking, you know, oh yeah, wants to be a director or whatever. Or any, yeah, is when you're talking about, um, indie versus quote unquote pro or whatever,

um, I think it's hard for any of us to, um, not let, uh, what we want or where we see ourselves or this like idea of, oh, I,

I want to be making big budget feature films, whatever it may be. Rob us of the enjoyment of now. Like, what you're doing now can still be fun. Don't let what you want that it's not this, you know? Oh, I want to be making big fellas, but instead I'm working this corporate thing. This sucks. It's like, well, that's where you're at, bro.

Just like, enjoy that. Like, enjoy where you're at. 100%. With the target in mind. But, like, don't rob yourself of what you're currently doing. You're going to be miserable perpetually. Perpetually. And I love that you say that because it kind of makes me think of two things.

One, it's like, do you really love what you're doing then? Because if you don't, you should get out. You should get out because it's going to hurt, you know, and it's going to, like you said, perpetually you're going to be upset. And it's not good for anyone. Number one, it's not good for that person. It's just you're going to rot inside. And then you're going to, like, that's going to spread to the other people around you.

And why would you do that, you know? And two, it reminds me of, you just don't know. what you're doing, like, and how it will benefit you in the future. You know, not that we only do things for benefit, but it's like I, it makes me think of an immediate, like, these things are always full circle. I can't express enough how many times it feels like there's this weird cosmic path. With some bad I'm following, and this is just one of the recent ones. A few years ago, I was doing, again, for that music nonprofit, session. We were doing

interviews at this big studio where the BGs have recorded their famous album. And so recording this stuff and I hear like someone goes, hey, Farrell's next door. I was like, oh really?

Oh shit. You know? Because he produced our first season of Bokper Black Girl. I'm sorry, the second season when we actually got funding on the second season. And so he produced that and gave us and Issa a platform to actually be seen, be heard, get out a little more, which eventually led to Issa's HBO show insecure. So it's like a lot was owed to that. And so I always wanted to thank him, but I never got to.

So I heard he's next door. I'm like, all right, I'm going to go in there. So I go in and I walk in and no one's stopping me. You know, it's kind of like I wasn't just marching in there, but no one's. thought me. So I was like, okay, it must be cool. So I walk in and he's just like on the keyboard like this and like I think he was future. I don't know. I was kind of a panic mode. Future was like there and see it. Yeah. Yeah. They're like in a session like hard, like into it, in the zone. And I'm like, oh shit. I shouldn't be in here. And I just kind of like reversed back and like open

the door like that Homer Stimston meme. You know, it's like, and then so I went outside and someone who's out there and I was like, hey, do you know Farrell? Yeah. I was like, hey, can give him this note. And it just said, you know, thank you for giving us a chance, you know, something like that, believing in the little guy kind of thing. And I just said, you know, from the awkward black girl crew, it's just like a little handwritten thing. And so I don't know if you ever got it, whatever years later, maybe two, three years later, I'm interviewing for Harlem. And Mimi Valdez is producer, business partner and stuff. She's, she's there in the interview. And I tell her that story. And she's like, oh, no way. Because she reminded me,

she's like, you know, we did awkward black girl for you guys. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but I didn't, yeah, I didn't meet you guys. So she was like, no way you did that. She goes, I'm going to call him right after this, see if he got it, you know? And so I still have to connect with Mimi and see the result of that. But I mean, I got the job, you know, and I worked on Arlem and I was with Mimi on set during my time there. So it's just, you don't know, like if I were all jaded and upset about the job I was on and wasn't in the right mood or whatever, you know, you don't know what little things can help, like, get you the job. And sometimes it's just a little connection like that. You know, it's just a little thing like that. I'm not saying that that got me the job,

but someone having a connection initially from 10 years ago and then, oh, here's this other thing that happened. It's like you're going to lean in that direction. I feel like, I don't know, for sure. But yeah. Well, people, I've seen people complain about, like, incorrectly calling it nepotism, but what they mean is like people basically only hiring within their little friend circle or whatever. And it's like, but that's, if you're going to spend nine months working on something, like, you're not just going to hire this random person, student, person who you should give a chance because you should. Because they might fail on you. They need to be, people need to be tested. And like the way that you, you get tested. Well, get tested everyone. The way that you get tested is,

is you do the smaller work, you know, build that body of work that shows you know what you're talking about, which I actually had read somewhere where you were talking about, you were, you basically took a year basically saying yes to everything that came away. You kind of mentioned it earlier. But the little thing that I wanted to touch on because I had run into this problem recently was sussing out who is dishonorable or not someone you should work with. What are some of those flags, those red flags or signs that let you know, I need to get the fuck out of here, no matter how, like, attractive that gig may be? Yeah. Man, one of my favorite things. Because I also say yes to everything, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it can bring you into some pretty cool situation that got me where I was. But, you know, there were a lot of times where I did get kind of like directly screwed over where it was like not getting paid or someone taking an opportunity that I should have been a part of but wasn't.

This is like happened to countless times. You know, and I'm like, is it me? Like, what's going on? But I always tried to just accept that as like, I felt bad for that person because it's like why? Did you feel the need to do that when we all kind of know, you know, what, what transpired? And it's like, and how it took place. So I'm not the one that has to, you know, fall asleep at night knowing that, you know, or be uncomfortable when we're in the same room or whatever.

I think the thing that I love about film so much is that it's so hard. It's so high stakes. It's like you find out who people are real quick. You know, good. I know a lot of people who are like, oh, this is my best friend. I like my girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. And it's like, you guys haven't been through anything yet. Like you have not been in a tough situation yet.

Like figuring out where you're going to go to dinner, what movie you're going to see is not hard. You know, like you and I take on a gig. Who knows, man? They might forget our flights. we get delayed. We're stuck in Canada. It's freezing. We have all this gear. You know, you just don't know. And it's the way that you and I are going to handle that situation, how we behave in those tough circumstances. That's people show you who they are so fast. You know, so fast. Oh, one thing I was watching is that it's something like Allison Borderland on Netflix. And it was just I watched. No one recommended me that.

I've heard that's... Yeah, I didn't even watch it like in order. It just kind of had it on. And then there was an episode that I sat and watched. And it was, they were like battling to the death. These two teams were competing. And one of the sort of like antagonist, what he said was he said, the best part about this is facing death, you get to really meet someone, like who they truly are. And it's the same thing because everything is on the line.

So if it doesn't go our way, how are you going to act? How are you going to react? And so that's what I look for. In terms of the signs, it's like if somebody's very selfish, if what they're concerned is like, oh, but what about me? You know, we did have a situation one time where the production company, I think they just mismanaged their stuff. for some reason, like no one was getting paid. And then certain members were like, oh, what am I going to do? What am I going to do?

You know, and it's like, yeah, but our friends who are the producers like are going to suffer way more than us, you know, stuff like that. Just I understand that like totally because you've dedicated yourself to something and you will be directly affected. But I think it's good to think about others and when you. you see that people aren't doing that. It's like, all right, red flag, you know, look out for that. And sometimes you'll just be blindsided.

You know what I mean? Like, I had an instance where I did two seasons, I shot of this show. And we did, it was a pilot for a new show. And guy said, oh, my daughter's sick. I got to go get her. And we're like, oh, no, oh, no. And then just doesn't pay anybody. and never saw him again.

Oh, wow. And this is somebody who we worked with for two seasons of something else, treated us very well, always paid us, was an awesome guy. I don't know. It just happened. Like, I haven't seen him since. We had a bunch of mutual friends. They hit him up or were like, hey, what's up, man?

You're like, he kept me doing that. And he just kind of like, I don't know. He's just out there doing his thing. I don't even know if he, yeah, and if I ran into him, I don't know if you remember or anything, but it's just kind of crazy because it's like sometimes you just don't know and that's unfortunate, you know, but I think most of the time you do because you'll see just that they are mostly thinking about like how they benefit and not treating you a certain way. And sometimes it's intentional and sometimes it's not.

and I've also had to do that as well where kind of unintentionally you know it's very much and you know I'm sure you've experienced this in the client world where it's like you pull off a fricking miracle dude like what you just deliver them that should not have happened that it's like all against all logic you know I'm sure you've delivered you know packages and you're just like yeah man and it's sort of like cool like wait that's it you know and like okay do it again it's like jeez all right you know the one that comes to mind that isn't too too intense but uh i did an interview thing and uh LAPD or no um just a news helicopter there we were right next to the freeway and there's a big

accident that happened and so there happened to be a news helicopter 50 yards outside this window that we were we had to fill next to and we had no the sun was going down and we're using that as our main light because again this was like really fast and um I delivered pristine audio took me forever and they didn't even notice they were there they were in the the guy I delivered it to was in this like in the room like is that going to be okay and I just had to be like yeah what else are we going to do like I can't say no it's not we got to we couldn't reschedule this thing these guys are from out of town you know so It was just like, yeah.

Yeah, it's crazy, right? Because it's like they don't know, but I guess that's their job, you know, and you can't. I've learned to stop telling clients like when something's really difficult because they don't care. They don't care. And it's not their job to care. You know, if you want them to feel bad for you, you can do that plenty of other ways, you know. Yeah, you really, you really do have a lot to shoulder. I think when you're doing these projects for sure.

Well, and something that you brought up that, you know, talking about the way that people react to things. I always try to impress upon people how important, like especially when people talk about film school, for instance. I kind of always say like I would go to a regular-ass college and get a degree, like, and get a degree, but take a bunch of other classes, get in trouble. Like, because the, because the,

the way you react to certain things going wrong is kind of informed by how much you've had to deal with in life like if you've been to prison something bad going wrong probably won't peak your oh camera stop up probably stop probably won't you know hit hit your

what am I trying to say won't max out your your response mechanism you know whereas if the worst thing that's ever happened to you is like you know someone broke up with you I think yeah if you're stuck in Canada in the cold you'll freak out a lot harder than if you've had a lot of experience you know you totally agree I mean I think you can see what's going on here a quick technical issue Oh, there been a No, I totally agree Like

I ended up in I went to a regular college I went to Cal State Fullerton Oh, so did my sister Oh yeah Oh, the jewelry one yeah The jewelry one, yeah, same sister Oh, all right, man

Yeah, I went there And I was just kind of there I didn't know what I was doing You know, they were like, you're supposed to be in college All right, I'll go to college, I guess I was just kind of BSing around, like trying to figure out what I wanted to do. So I just took entertainment communications. And then I took a film class and was like, oh, shit.

You know, it was like a world cinema class. And I totally agree with you because a lot of what informs how I do things was just all of those experiences and stuff, all those things you've been through. And you have to be able to, I think, bring your whole character into, what you're doing, you know, because it isn't just, it isn't just theory, it's application, it's your life experiences. And those are all the things that you can't replicate. You know, I think we were talking about before, like with the gear, it's like you're, you're leaning on the gear to make it look like you're making something really nice and something I noticed was like when they did that, it just emphasized more that the story or character sucked. And there

was nothing there because it looked so good, but then there was nothing there. It was like shiny on the outside, but then there was nothing at its core, which is why I think awkward black girl actually struck a chord was because we were trying to have something in there and it didn't maybe look super high in, but it was like, you'll accept that, you know, if there's something beneath the surface kind of thing. Yeah, the whoever I'm blanking on everyone, I always blank on whoever I just interviewed. I've had a few interviews this week, but we were just talking about there's like a triangle, there's the exposure triangle, but then there's the like filmmaking triangle of like good script, uh, looks good and like, I don't know what the third one. Maybe it was

good sound or something, but like you, you have to have two. You can't have one. So if it looks really good, but yeah, the script blows. Oh, acting. That's what it was. If the script blows and the acting sucks, but it looks good, people are going to hate it. But if the acting is really good and it looks good, but the script's okay, people would be like, well, you know, I was, I was drawn in. Or if the script's amazing, but it looks bad and there's great acting, people are like, dude, I don't care if it looks like it was shot on his cell phone, Moonlight, classic example, you know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, for sure, I feel like the visual is, it's funny saying this, but the least important. Yeah. Sound is more important. To me, it's the most important. It is, it is. Man,

when you have bad sound, it's just over with. I can't. You can't, you can't watch. You can't listen to bad sound for a long time. It's just crazy. Like, I could, if something looks bad, it's like, oh, that looks bad, whatever. But it doesn't keep bothering me. I'm just like, I look to bad. As long as it's consistent. As long as, if it, if it's like it looks good, then it looks bad.

That looks mediocre. Then it looks like shit. Then it looks at me. I hate that. That drives me nuts. But, yeah, I can. And it just becomes the aesthetic if it looks, you know, if it's shot on DV. The kids love DV right now.

I'll tell you what. Oh, yeah? Early 2000's point in shoots are coming back. Art. Really? Yeah, dude, that's the near I. You know how film photography, like, hit a lick real quick for the past, like, five years or so? Now it's, I'm not even joking, like, Canon Power Shots. Yeah, oh, that's sick. Not only in a shoebox somewhere. Bring it out and start putting that on TikTok. I get a billion subscribers in a day. I got a bust it out. Dude, I just, I just bought, my brother, Sam does a lot of film stuff. And he brought, we went to New York for the Harlem screening of my episode. and uh and so he brought five and six right um six and seven six and i did five and yeah i did five it was weird because they paired five and six but i did six and a different director did five

and that same direct like a different director did the finale yeah he got a little a little crazy this television yeah yeah six and seven and uh so he brought here at the brine uh yeah it was that that was most important part um but yeah he brought his mammia and I was when he was getting film I was like dude what is that and it was this hey look this thing oh man there it is this bitch is hard to bring around it's so big yeah oh my god he had me take I was taking some photos and it was like reverse I was like oh that's the other hard one a fall over I feel like I'm drunk yeah makes you really dizzy to look in there so satisfying to pull the trigger though

Oh, my God. You're like, hold on. Let's get some ASMR for this. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, hold on. Let's put this on in. That's a good sound. Did it?

Hold on. I'll do it for you. I think it might have noise reduced it out. Hold on. Go. It's a good shit. you know like so at the at the um photography spot uh that he we went to this place in chinatown and they had uh these disposable cameras so i got this like ill for

disposable black and white dude it was sweet i just got to develop it looks nice oh yeah dude no i can i got a big it's all like black and white it's sick man yeah like the HP5 disposals yeah st artos like that yeah something like that yeah something like that I can't remember. Those look great. I'm telling you, I was really surprised. The on camera,

that's the thing that I think most people who are getting to, like, older, like, because I think people are into film and disposables and what I call party cams. I wrote a whole article in pro video about party cams. Oh, dude, please send that to me. I got it got it out of here. Yeah.

It's just the on-camera flash look. Everyone's like, because I've spoken to, it was a coworker of my girlfriends, they're dance, dancers, dance teachers. and she was like, I want a film camera. And when she was showing me all the photos she wanted to replicate, I was like, what you want is a camera with an on-camera flash.

I can save you a lot of money. Like, you don't need a, you know, or you buy an X-100 to get the best of both worlds, but those fuckers are hard to get a hold of. But, yeah, those look good, though. That's, I think black and white and the disposable is like such a good idea. It's cool. I'd never done it.

It's really cool. I'd think it. I see it. I hate it. Yeah. I think I started to do, have you seen Nons, the Nons, stuff that uses the Fuji film? So check, so it's N-O-N-S. It started as a Kickstarter, and it's a instant camera that uses the Fuji Instax.

Okay. But you can put 35 Melendez on it. Oh, okay. Oh, that's interesting. That's actually pretty, yeah, it's pretty cool. it's pretty cool like I was using a helios on it a 44-1 yeah yeah I used that I used some Likas on it some of those like super Takamar things and yeah man it's cool like it's and it's instant too so it's like it's just like a cool little like like you said party kind of like a

party tricks. Like, oh, here, look. Got this Instacks thing. So it's fun. I'll try to take those on set. Yeah. I actually have the Jeff Bridges coffee table book where he uses, I think it's called the Instilux or the wide luck. It's like

a panoramic camera that he brings on set. And so there's all these photos from like, Tron, whatever, in this black and white, super wide. It's great. It's just called like Jeff Bridges' photographs, I think. Dude, I didn't know about that.

I got to check that out. It's all behind the scene stuff, too. Like stuff from, from, um, what's the, the, with the dude. Oh, uh, Big Lobowski. Big Lobowski. I kept, like, bowling for Columbine. I was like, no. Um, that's not it.

Yeah, yeah. I get why, though. Actually, one thing that now is kind of going off rails, but one thing I started doing about five years ago, is this guy had designed for 3D printing, these little adapters that you can put on either side of a roll of 35 millimeter film, and then you can put it in the back of your medium format camera.

So, you know, the imaging circle with a medium format lens is whatever, you know, that big, seven centimeters across, whatever. And so the 35 millimeter strip goes all the way through the middle, so you end up exposing the entire, higher negative. It passed the sprocket shots. Sprocket holes. The subreddit I started, it's called

Sprocket shots. So I started printing those and selling them and you can buy them on eBay too. But I got permission from the guy who designed him to sell them. So no one else, I Gary just me. No one else did. His name is on the side of mine and stuff. But I'll send you some of those photos too because it's a very cool. That's a party trick.

Because every time you show someone that, they think it's like an overlay. because not only are you getting it's an interesting look and you also get to see what film you shot with because it goes past the sprockets but because it's a much larger piece of film

it lowers the grain perceptually you know in the image that you're looking I'm sure if you print it out biggest fuck you know but instead of a 24 by 28 or whatever 35 millimeter film is

it's you know four inches yeah so it's like vest division, you know, it's a 64, uh, 65 millimeter film width. So it looks like, it looks like very fancy digital almost. That's so cool. I got to show that's my brother, too. Oh my God. I'll send you some, if you live in town, I'll just give you some of the adapters. It costs me five cents to print them, you know. Oh shit. Okay. Cool. Damn. Benefits of being in town.

Yeah, I know. Right. Well, I actually have another interview coming up. So I'm going to I'll DM you all that stuff, but it was fucking rad talking to you. And also, congrats on Harlem. Like, the show looks sick. Thank you. Thank you. Amazon. It's on Amazon.

Oh, wait. Oh, before I asked the same two questions. I got to ask you the questions. One. Okay, I'll do it quick. I'll do it quick if you got another interview. Here we go. Not in the next five minutes, but, you know.

Okay. But first question, and this is weird with television shows, but whatever, if you were to program a double feature with Harlem, what would the other program be? It can be a show, it can be a movie, it can compare, it can contrast. Okay, okay. I didn't have an answer first, but I got one now. So what I would do is I would pair specifically 207, which is the girls' trip episode of Harlem that I directed with Girls Trip the movie, because Tracy, you know, she wrote Girls Trip and it was really cool to be able to do like a TV episode of a Girl's Trip episode, but with a different cast. And so I was able to do a little homage in there.

There's like, I kind of like blocked the characters from Harlem in the same way that it is in the poster of Girls Trip. And so that was really cool. And also just because I didn't know this, I found this out when we went to Sundance, and they brought Harlem there and premiered the first episode. Tracy was doing an interview, and she said that she had actually written Harlem before Girl's Trip, and nobody was into it. And then she wrote, and then she wrote Girls Trip, it became a huge success, and then they wanted Harlem. So it's like, you know, sometimes you can do something, and it's at the time, it's not going to take off. you do another project where she used her own project as a proof of concept and like that it could work and then brought an older project and then that became her new project so you know you know

that's perfect that's what I would do that's so perfect uh yeah I should actually start asking about the specific episodes people have directed because I've always been like well it's a whole TV show but uh that's just good anyway uh second question a lot of people always always ask about, oh, what's like a piece of advice you have or a good piece of advice you got? I want to know what the worst piece of advice you got is. The worst piece of advice? What's the worst piece? Just about directing, about, or just anything.

Yeah, about, let's say about filmmaking. Filmmaking. In some capacity. Filmmaking. I think the worst piece of advice that I got was sort of in the vein of just getting paid for what you do, like always. I think that money's cool, but I don't love it.

Like, I know I need it, and I know I need it to survive, and I know I need it to just exist. But it's not the driving factor of what I do. And I don't think it's really that great for anybody if it is. I mean, there's always, you know, Everything I've done, there are other forms of currency, and that's loyalty, it's creativity, it's just being additive to a project, and I always just try to be wherever I go, make it better

somehow, you know, and it doesn't even have to necessarily, you're not even exerting a bunch of energy, but if you just kind of work on yourself and you're comfortable on yourself, It's like you just being there makes it better because it's, it's reassuring. It's like support. And so I think the worst advice was that like only do a job if you're getting paid. I didn't get paid for awkward black girl. Tracy didn't get paid. Eisa didn't get paid.

But if you look where they're at now, you know, it's like they're getting paid. It's like sometimes you got to do something your passion, about without pay. Don't get, take it advantage of. I think that's the breaking point. That's a threshold. But, you know, you don't always have to get paid. And there are other ways, you know, to get paid. Yeah. The, uh, the more immediate one that I think of when I just thinking about getting paid is, uh, like if I ever do a job for a company and they say they have a low budget, oftentimes I'll ask if they can give me product instead. And nine times out of 10, they're like, oh, fuck yeah. So like if you, so I do a lot of work.

with this company, Death & Co, they're a cocktail group. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm aware. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, the first job we ever did they're like, hey, man, like, thanks so much for doing this. We agreed to the terms ahead of time, but they were like, we don't have a lot of money for this. It's just kind of an idea. And I was like, well, if you guys will, you know, treat me to a night at your restaurant, I'll rack up some cash and I'll just, you know, tip the bartender. They're like, fuck yeah. Or like any, any like beverage company product company I did a job for deity microphones and they were like they're great and so they were like hey we can pay you this much or we can give you some

aperture lights and I was like actually can I have a set of your because it's the same deity and aperture the same company and I was like actually I'm good on lights can I have those time code boxes that you guys make and they're like done and so I actually got paid like a little more than they were planning on plus the time code boxes. And overall, that was more than I was going to get paid anyway. So look for those little things when you're doing, you know, more corporate shit. It's invaluable. It's invaluable. You know, amazing. Cool, man. Well, I'll let you go and I'll DM you those things right now.

Yeah, please do. Yeah, let's catch up, but we'll connect for sure. Take it right, man. Take care. Peace. production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.