Frame & Reference Podcast - 92: "The Magician's Elephant" DP Gary H. Lee

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

On this weeks episode Kenny talks with VFX guru and cinematographer Gary H. Lee about "The Magician's Elephant." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 92 with Gary Lee, VFX Extraordinaire, and Digital Cinematographer for The Magician's Elephant. Enjoy. Are you watching anything interesting right now? I started Last of Us, and there we go. It was mainly, you know, that was a video game I played. You know, but it was, okay, I can kind of rewind back to growing up, playing a ton of video game, entering high school, you know, entering college, kind of just shut the whole video game

thing down because realizing I'm being super unproductive, you know, spending all this time. In the industry, over the years, like seeing people, you know, gameplays of like GTA5, you know, all this game that the cinematic, video game cinematic, the graphics are becoming so sophisticated. Yeah. I think it was like a couple of years back, I was like, I should, I should kind of play video game just to understand what, what we're dealing with right now and got introduced to the whole open world thing you know and then Last of Us was one of those

video games I played at that time where it just blew my mind in terms of the storytelling aspect of it and yeah that was I got really into the story Last of Us and doing that whole period I got into that GTA 5 with a few other video games I quickly shut it down again because I was like okay oh my god I'm just burning hours

my life goodness red dead too yeah I didn't even attempt to you know damn too big because I know we just going to we need too big and I have friends that are reading like war warcraft and you know like some game that you know just becomes that take your take your life away cut to present Last of Us coming out as a TV show I thought the cast was fantastic

so I was like me and my wife now married with two kids one daughter turned on the first episode and then the girl showed up I was like

oh no because I know what was going to happen but I have played that game when I didn't have a family you know and now suddenly it was just it just becoming so much harder to digest so pretty much after the first episode we like kind of go do we want to continue on this maybe yes no and i decided to keep going forward because you know this is kind of what i do but uh my wife you know kind of taking

a break from it and i would say the latest episode i saw was episode three which is the episode That didn't have any of the crazy violence or the clickers or all of that. And it's by far my favorite episode of the season so far. But that's how far I've gone at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're on for timeline's sake, we're on for people listening. We're on episode seven that's just come out.

Oh my God. I'm behind it. Yeah. I mean, it, I'm telling you, man. It doesn't get easier. Episode three is particularly devastating, but it's not like, it doesn't suddenly become roses after that. I love how they suddenly just introduce these two characters that you have no contacts of and you go through their entire life. It's amazing world building.

Oh, amazing world building. So good. So good. And that was something that was never in the game. And I love that about it. Because, but man, the first pilot, you were just, I was like, I don't want to be watching. It's the radio. So I had to convince my girlfriend that it was worth watching because, you know, she, she's not as into film and television as I am.

And I was like, well, it's about this guy and this girl and he's got to transport this girl somewhere. And, you know, there's a lot of, but. And so we're getting through the first episode and his daughter fucking gets shot. And she was like, I thought you said it was about a guy and his daughter. I said, I said it was about a guy and a girl. I didn't say which one. Yeah, no, I mean, you needed to happen for his character building, all of that, but I just wasn't ready to see something like that, having a daughter now.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough show. I have. You're watching. I mean, Last of Us is up there. Right now, I'm kind of going through this. I feel like I've said this a lot of this podcast.

So it's a long kick, but I've been going through like 90s action movies kind of kick or like, you know, like stuff like the running man or like going back and just rewatching Air Force. Because I'm trying to, I'm trying to like go through an Air Force one is a good one. Yes. But it's like, I'm trying to think like, were these good or was I a teenage boy? You know, and sometimes it's good and sometimes I was a teenage boy. You know, like the one is like, both. the one is like really good and also horrific like the

fucking butt rock just like dumb you know putting uh the you know he's fighting people and they're playing bodies by drowning pool you're like okay this is very early 2000s like this was that weird era of just ro chachowness

yeah yeah like that whole like the jelly time in you know the arragan cinema yeah the jettly era The Jedi, he wasn't a lot of stuff, wasn't he? Yeah, Romeo must die. Romeo must die.

And I was, I was just watching an interview with, um, uh, what's his name? The older guy who was, who was in, uh, Rogue One, he's not, he doesn't look older. He looks like. Donnie, yeah, again. Uh, I was almost going to do a project with him, actually, did I had, I got to meet him in person, uh, for this potential project to work it at. And do super nice guy, you know, I still think that he's probably, it's like his time right now, you know, John Wake 4 and his spain in many things. Yeah. Yeah.

It is, I'm, do you find you're a little more in touch with this being on your side of things, but like I, in the past like year, I've started to really get excited about things that are coming out. like projects seem to be more interesting like I think the past decade we've suffered through a lot of sameness and it just I mean everything everywhere is like a good example of probably what's kicking off more interest in let's say weird or shit but like it does feel like there's kind of been this ground swell of like interesting projects that are have started to come out over the past like three five years something like that sure and It was interesting that you bring up everything everywhere all I once because I remember going to the theater, like Alamo's drive house. And I watch the, not for that film, for the Batman, the oldest Batman film.

And that poster was everywhere, you know, everything everywhere. And it was just so fascinating that particular poster, the way it was designed with Michelle Yon. And it was always, I remember that image made me really want to check out the film. And just because of just circumstantial and didn't get to it until it was really popular until everyone was raping about it. So I started teaching recently at USC, like for their, like as a cinematography class for animator, for animation. For the first time, that was my first ever experience. and in the class I asked like what was the film that you know you guys all got super excited about these days and everyone was like every day everyone went on once and they're like you have to go watch it

and I felt like I was really behind the curve I have to say I watched it and I felt like I was not the I was not the audience that was like got blown away by it and I don't know if it was because I was behind the curve that Yao already has, you know, such a huge following and, you know, it was just like really hyped up. And every person I talked to spoke about it in such a high praise that perhaps it has normalized it for me a little bit. I think that makes total sense. Because if it, seeing that movie, I got to interview the DP of that film. And so I went to an advanced screening. So he and I were talking about it. And he was, you know, the chat was basically like, well, I hope it does. I hope people like it.

You know, like there was no. And then actually, speaking of podcast coming out late, that one came out April. So it was like, there was a, there was a stupid reason why it got, I shouldn't say stupid. There was a reason why it got delayed. But I should say like a non-consequential reason why it got delayed. And so it's funny to re-listen to that one and go like, we were talking about it not knowing. And then it got released, the podcast got released when the, the film was like, you know, getting Oscar noms and stuff. Great, great. But also to the point of you teaching, because I didn't want to ask about that, that

film reminds me so much of the stuff I wanted to make in college, that it makes total sense that college students get stoked on seeing that in a theater. That kind of ridiculous but well-made thing was like right at my alley. If that came out when I was in college, that would be my favorite movie by far. Sure, sure. I can see that. And it was overwhelming reception across the board. wasn't even just like half of the class. It was like 85% of the class. And me watching the

film, I think that I don't know how you feel about it, but parts of it really reminded me of like Hulk monkeys. Oh yeah. Yeah. They borrow from a lot of things of that film. Like Terry Gillian films and I had, I was mentioning to my students like, hey, have you guys seen Club Monkeys like, you know, Brazil like this type of films? And just a new generation. the kids they've never seen that before i was like you should check that out and maybe there's like you see this you know there's some inspirations that came from that um don't give me wrong i love their work like swiss army man i was like in the theater just grinning you know from beginning to and be like who the hell makes this and this is so awesome that this existed you know and

by all means i'm not trying to you know underplay the achievement you know of everything everywhere Or at once, I, I, I, some things are for you. I mean, you were just like, I felt like it was a party that's going on that I was invited to. I was just like, you know, to, kicking it out from the outside, but I'm so glad that it's, it's doing very well. I love the fact that the male lead, who was from Indiana Jones back in the days. I keep forgetting what order his name is supposed to go in, which is very Anglo-centric of me. But, yeah, key, whatever. Yes, that's right.

And, oh, it's just so nice to see him, you know, I mean, I've since such a talent that just kind of was forgotten for decades. And he's been doing, um, uh, fight choreography this whole time. No shit. Yeah. Am I supposed to say that? Yeah, you can say the fuck word. You can say whatever you want. Okay.

Yeah, no, he, yeah, he, yeah, he, that's, so the, the advanced screening I went to. So that's like air. So good as well. as like a martial artist because I was like do you train for this like today because you never know sometimes they just they can just somehow be calling it out up in like a month yeah no he yeah he's been doing fight choreography this whole time and the advanced screening I went to was like a Q&A as well and this one line that Michelle yo said that I've got a kick out of was uh some girl had asked like oh, like, you were really good at like some of the fight stuff in this movie, you know,

like, how do you get there? How do you maintain that? And she goes, well, when you wake up, do you like brush your teeth? She goes, yeah. And she goes, yeah, I do karate. It's like, that's, uh, that one was intense, like in a good way. She doesn't fuck around. Well, it reminds me of the conversation I had, um, had an opportunity to be, to have with Donnie

And then, you know, when he first, because he kind of grew up, I believe he either went to Hong Kong at a very young age or he came to the States at a very young age. But his mom was like being performance art, like martial arts, would get him up as a kid, like five in the morning to just practice martial arts like every single day. He hated it. It was so cold, you know, how's you get up in your first thing you do. But that's, that's, that's, that's what made him we is today. Yeah. And he's craft, you know. And I, you know, I don't know if this is part of it, but that man is almost 60 years old.

And he looks my age. And I look 20 years older than I should look. I don't take. Obviously, he's probably saying there's here. It'll be a, which just does not exist. I'm an Asian. person space ship. Like, I tried to do, like, for you, that's probably why, like, a week. Like, this is like two weeks. Yeah. My friend Nick Mim is, uh, is, uh, half Asian. And yeah,

he just gets these little whisked, but, because he looks, he looks white. And so everyone's like, why can't you? And he's like, bro, it's the other half. The other half's fucking up my face under game. I tried for sure. Like, my wife is occasion. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, what do you think about this facial hair and she's just like you get what you're talking about yeah uh i did want to ask though because you brought up the being a professor at USC and i suppose you kind of answered i was going to ask like what um what the kids are into right now like what films are you talking about but kind of got there i did want to ask because it was specific to what you do and i've been talking about it a lot of people been talking about it very recently on like youtube and

Twitter, and that is, if you have any thoughts or opinions on the introduction of AI workflows into animation, because there's a large, like, plagiarism question and things like that. And I was wondering from your perspective, because I've been arguing from a creative's perspective, but I don't know how it looks on the animator's side, you know? well it was it was really interesting because when I was teaching that class that's when the journey came out it's just like one of those like dolly you know like all those AI generating arts that you stable diffusion exactly you can write prompts and and very quick I had a I have a director friend who's really really into that and he's just been generating

a ton of content just for fun just to like kind of get his brain going and you know exercise his mind, I even, I tap into it for a while and it, and parts of it feel like it's incredibly powerful. Like, you know, as someone who is putting together a pitch deck or you want to do some sort of concept paintings to just kind of get the mood of the project that you're trying to pitch, I can totally see a scenario where, you know, instead of hiring a concept artist, you'll start using something like majority to just generate the first few pages and kind of see what sticks on the wall and once you start refining it then eventually you can hire someone

who does it in a more precise manner but in a way it's all entirely possible that this is just like the very first version's like eventually you can get to a place where you can really air you for that last 10% of the final refinement into it I always joke about in a few years like I'll be talking to my computer and said okay we're we want a tracking shot following art and you know the character with a medium 50 millimeter lens you know four feet away from him and as he gets to that first bedroom you know camera pen right to reveal this person and like you can which is really scary and and it's like it's like I feel like the future is you'll have a DP production designer, director, writer.

Like, you have probably like a handful of people that can just go and lock themselves in the cabin for a weekend. At the end of that, there's like a future film that's made, you know? Right. Like, that is a very much a possible future. Excuse me. And so when I, and I, the moment my journey came out, I was in the middle of teaching the very first class I ever taught. I just brought it to the class. I say, hey, this is where you guys are going to be up against.

Right. All of you are going to graduate. You guys are all incredibly brilliant students at USC. And all your craft has been honed in over the years. And some of these, since this is an animation class. A lot of students are into storyboards. They want to be story artists. They want to tell.

Like, they're still kind of in that, like, doing comic book, you know, like type of stage. There's a few students in there that have into doing 3D animation, you know, using Maya, using software, using Unreal Engine to create. For me, I have no qualms of which medium you choose. Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of visual storytelling. you're doing and rather there's an intention behind what you're creating. But I'm like, well, you're going to be up against, you know, this thing that even I start thinking about for my kids, what is the craft that they will have to get into in the future that might not be able to get, you know, displaced by AI?

And I feel like the answer, the conclusion I took away from all of this, you know, the ongoing conversation of AI, you know, there's like this particular podcast I listened to call in with like four tech, you know, funders that are always talking about was up and coming. and one of one particular post on it named Freebird had talked about the skill set that he's now telling his kids in which I believe is the right one which is that your job is to have the ability and have the curiosity to continue to relearn in your life you know don't just think about like I think back in the days people would go I'm going to be in an illustrator and then you hone in your craft you spend years to perfect that very style and that becomes your life that becomes your legacy and it's entirely possible that that's that can be quickly and easily replaced and what is the next thing like how do you how do you continue to utilize and continuously as tools for your art rather than being you know replaced by the yeah well so the thing it's interesting you bring that up because one thing that literally today I was playfully arguing with someone about, but I'm kind of, Pat, I will color your opinion before we talk about it. But do you know that the guy's corridor

digital? They're pretty, I feel like, well known in the VFX space at this point. I feel like channel for sure. Yes. Yeah. So there are some like, um, independent VFX guys. They have a YouTube channel. And so what they did was they were able to, Like, the skill that it took for them to do this cannot be overstated. But what they did was they filmed themselves and then they trained an AI on a very specific anime and then had that AI overlay their live video with that anime style. And then they made a short. And it looks pretty good.

It's quite convincing. And so there was this big kind of two-sided uproar. On one side, people are saying, oh, this is going to democratize. animation and then the other side saying this is straight up plagiarism because they trained it on this one anime so like the thing that I'm kind of curious about from your end is because I went to at ASU we talk our whole thing was ethics based filmmaking and so for weirdly enough this is the one time where I'm like an ASU education is helping me with this conversation Where do you see the ethics in independent creators utilizing a tool like that to ostensibly lift someone else's artistic style versus allowing their stories to be told in a way that is, as they've said, you know, high quality like the big leagues, you know, oh, because that was a big thing with like digital cameras, you know, nicer digital cameras allowed people to make indie stories that looked like what you saw.

on theaters. So I guess my question to you is, do you see this kind of AI overlay type thing as an extension of that or something different? It's all really messy, I think, at the moment. Yeah, of course. I can see if on both sides, I really can. You know, I think Getty images have just waited some lawsuits because, you know, I think certainly I, you know, was basically taking get images and using that as, like, crawl the entire library of it. And sometimes that's why you see, like, the watermarks on these, like, majority things. That's, like, really weird.

And it's like, oh, this is, like, definitely a watermark from one of these, like, companies. And you're like, yeah, that makes sense, you know? Like, they spend all this time to build this library from really generating, hiring photographers, go out, shoe stock footage. all of that and now they are you know just completely

being utilized by a AI software company um in a part of it you know I

I have a friend was a director his name is David Slade um it's a pretty good we'll get together sometimes grab coffee and talk about this

and he I remember him making a point that resonated with me was that you know back in the days people were doing paintings and suddenly you have your first camera that came out and people are just taking like one step

you got a whole picture right and you were like that's cheating how can you like that you just take this box around you press a button and then that's your art that's this ridiculous right like art is

oil painting or social illustration that takes craft, all of that. But it is until later that people go, oh, that just taking a photo doesn't mean anything. It's like now, why are you taking that photo? What's the meaning behind what you're trying to capture? What is the story behind it? Like, that derive into its own artistic narrative. That didn't. And I think so human civilization, and there's just these many milestones that at first would feel like, oh, this is a, you know, this is very problematic. And eventually, you know, it is overcome by its natural evolution

of what it ended up becoming. Although even on that note, I still think that AI today is very different. Like AI today is taking it to a whole other level. I remember any. There was like an artist, sorry, I'm like blinking on names a lot today. It was an illustration. There was a female artist who had done this, had a very distinct style, and people were using, prompting in her name, her style to create art that is like, you know,

but she's like, I believe she's Jewish and the art that people are generated. was like, you know, Nazi-related stuff. And you're just like, whoa, that's exactly what she doesn't ever want her art to be. Right. Using her voice to...

Yeah, using her voice. And then to the untrained eye, they'll be like, oh, so that's what she's about? That's interesting. And it does change that narrative. So we're in this uncharted territory that really... On the legal standpoint,

how do you even sort through you know, I wonder if there will be some sort of imprint to those generated art that can be detected by, you know, computer that can be like, oh, this is an AI generated art versus a, you know, human genre art. What do you, I love to know what you think about after, you know, talking to so many people. So my position initially was pretty vehemently anti-tage. but it's so new that I didn't have enough time to talk I'm trying to over the past many years trying better to listen and work on stuff before I start talking about it with any authority which I think is very hard and especially like the kind of YouTube social media era where it's like you learn something and then you immediately want to turn around and tell people because that's how you get clicks or whatever interesting but I think think the tool itself is not problematic. It is the way that certain people are seeing it as an intro. So like this one specific example of stealing, what I would say is stealing someone's look to make something else. I think that's a hard no. But if you were to, let's say if we want to use animation as the example, I think it's perfectly acceptable to train an AI on your own drawing style and then overlay that on.

video you shot and then that way you can animate a whole thing without needing an animation studio. I think that is democratizing of animation. Sure. Sure. That makes the law since it's almost like training you're a virtual assistant. Yeah. But I do see right now the sort of, I don't want to lump everyone together because I don't know enough about the AI art community, but there's, you know, let's do it right now they seem kind of like the NFT community where it's just a lot of like, you guys are going to, you know, you're getting your come up. Now that I can make something. rad, you know, so they'll train it on, you know, you're saying some famous artist, and then they'll make their own thing in that style, and they go, look, I'm an artist. And I'm like, no,

you made a pretty picture. The same thing happens with, with cinematography. You'll see people buy a red. And then they go, look, I can make pretty pictures. I'm a filmmaker. And you're like, no, you made a pretty picture. There has to be some, there is, there does seem to be a kind of neo-anarchist position in, in art right now, which is like, whoever can make the best looking thing wins and anything that came before is old bullshit yet you know what you're totally right about that and and and funny enough you know i started my career at lucas film with some of the top like illustrator in the business on uh star wars two right star wars two it was it was like the you know dream come true to be there and it was with people like dog chain

Ryan Lerge, Eric Timman, and I was an illustration major at Art Center, Pasadena, that it was very impactful to meet them and be like, okay, maybe I should think about doing something else. You know, like, these guys are just way too good. And, but you were in the same room. Well, I was doing something else, but I, no, I was very lucky. I feel that it was a journey that got me there, that it was like the beginning of what previous is, you know, as a business as that industry period but but i i don't i don't tend to tell a lot of people this like my major was illustration and very quickly at age of 19 meeting like the top people

it actually like it actually gave it was a negative experience that you feel like um wow that is a huge hill to climb in order to get to that place um And that was during the time I was in the crossroad of going, am I doing traditional illustration or even digital illustration or am I doing this thing called digital cinematography, which really never existed before? And I end up to going down the path of digital cinematography. Right. And digital meeting in the computer is not like digital cameras. Yeah. That's right.

That's right. On computer, which is previous at the time, which is animatic at a time. which in animation, they call it layout at the time. The terminology keeps changing because it was like such an in-year way of like pre-visualizing a film through animation. Over the years, like many people were surprised that that was my major illustration. They're like, Gary, I never knew you know how to draw. And because I just don't advertise it, but

and my craft of illustration was still half-baked because I was in school halfway to learn. my craft, I done my first job, I started working. Until very recently, since this whole mid journey, since it's all AI thing, I'm beginning to, for the first time my entire life, I started to post my own illustrations of Instagram. Because I'm like, this might not be the best work that's out there on this planet or like that came from people.

But this is like done, this is like part of me as like, like, direct. of, you know, a creation that is very real, you know, like it's unfiltered, it's unaltered. And for some reason, it kind of weirdly may be becoming more open about, you know, sharing my human creative art, you know, and it's just so easy to make perfect art now. I can type it like five words. It's a perfect art. And if I go, uh, the resolution is not high enough, I type one more word and the resolution is high enough. And, and I'm actually starting to look for those imperfections and be like, what is it that make me as a human being that really matters, that I want to share it to the world and be okay with it? You know, there's a lot of

people that does amazing mid journey or, you know, AI arts. And sometimes I'm like, yes, I know you can think. I know you can type. Yes, I understand. Like, you go to a vocabopoeia, you know, randomly like point two words. It's going to give you something. Like, good job. You can pick random words and come up with something unique. But I think there's still something of like the executing, execution of the idea that now I'm taking, I'm giving it more weight than ever. you know like everyone can come up with ideas but then how do you execute it to get there to become a thing that people digest in the way that you intend it people to digest that to me it's like now way more interesting yeah no it's uh kind of something that that i've also been

i agree with you 100% like i think it's almost the jf k quote thing of like you do it because it's hard. Like, what makes us human, what makes us human versus just brains and jars is like the ability to do these things and hone a craft and in that time come up with, and these are my opinions, but come up with what your voice is going to be and how you're going to communicate an idea or a thought. You know, and we've seen the same thing with like photography. You know, people are becoming far more interested in film photography now because it's difficult because it takes time and expertise. See the same thing with like, you know, like carpentry now I've noticed is like starting to really come back and kind of these artisanal things are becoming

more popular because I think at our core we recognize that doing these things is difficult and that shows skill. Like you would never say like, oh, I've got a real skateboarder here and I've got a guy playing Tony Hawk's pro skater. They're the same. It's the same trick, right? You know, they're both doing a 900. Yeah. I think there was an interview recently. Someone's like, oh, are you afraid of AI? And you're like, well, AI is only generating what has ever come before, right? Like, it's not, it doesn't have an imagination to create what is new to come. And I, I think there's some truth to that, although I have to say some of this AI are very sophisticated. There are some pretty new stuff. Yeah.

How would the tools change? And I'm on the same topic. How have the tools for you changed, you know, going from your episode two to like life of pie or even beyond? Because I imagine every film you've worked on, there's been a new set of tools that you've been given access to that have helped you in your career or even in just that job that you're doing. Oh, yes. No, I mean, I continue, continuing being thankful for all these companies that keeps pushing the envelope and, like, giving us more and more better tools over time. But one particular software that's always been consistent is really Maya. That's Maya that was there since I was at episode two, to, you know, Confu Panda, to Life of Pride, to Magician's Elephant, to even now. But now I'm the head of cinematography at Sony and recently with certain studios for the first time I'm seeing the industry change of going into gaming.

Unreal 5, exactly, something like that. And that is probably going to be the most significant change to come and for the right reasons. reasons. I think Unreal 5 really felt it feels like a technology that falls out from the back of alien spaceship. You know? Yeah. Did Nanai and Lumen how they can calculate just millions of geometries of like you can load the entire city? Yeah, I played that Matrix demo for the PS5 and I was like, this is actually insane because you can turn on like for those who haven't played it or don't have a PS5, you can turn on the overlay that shows you like how Nan night works or how all these geometries work and you can see it in real they just delete the

the skins and just leave the bones and you can see it all it'll give you a layout of did you play this thing am i speaking of the choir no i have yeah yeah i definitely yeah i'll know it yes and no it's it's it's incredible i think it does make me question whether we are just in a simulation or is that you know yeah i've seen i've seen some articles like that yeah this is further proof that we're close. Oh, totally. It makes perfect sense. I think, um, especially with Unreal 5.1, you have, they're operating with physical lighting. You know, they have the sun. You can dial up and dial down the atmosphere, the density of the fog, how much cloud is in the sky. And by the mountain cloud, it also gives you different quality of shadows. And, um, and you can literally have one

single light of like that you can see sure have an enclosed room with one window and you can have all the balances of lights that calculate it accurately in that room and if you want to just like have a subject in there and be like oh why don't I just put like a card next his face to get that fill is calculating that in like real type physical world space which because back in the day you had to place invisible lights all over the place right like in any animation. It was always you have a scene light source. I'm kind of trying to explain this for people listening, but like you have a light, whatever, the sun. And then in the scene, there's 15 other little lights that are invisible to the renderer, but affect the subject. Like, there's no such thing

as real bounce lights. Every single bounce lights are a very, like, tiny intensified point light or something. But for previous, for layout, in the animation, it's called layout for live access. It's more called previs. And now, I think most animation studio has called it previous now, too. And then now they're being more favor into the wording of digital cinematography, which I think for the first time is kind of communicating what it actually is. because in my career in my life

I've had very difficult time telling people what I'm doing to you know they're like what do you do even my parents like they think I'm an animator dog no one's parents knows what they do in a creative field

and but for previous sorry going back to it is we don't we actually don't care about the final visual fidelity of image like our job is really to think about the relationship between your camera and your subject in that environment and looking at the story that's either coming from script or from story boards to try to explore

and find opportunities that you can shoot in this environment before it kind of goes down to the production to lay out to rest of the pipeline, you know, for animation or for live action, which is more in the visual effects around. So in a lot of ways, like we can work with pretty rudimentary video game, you know, figurines, the environments that are still half-baked. And as long as we're trying, we're telling some sort of story and in that, our job is done.

Yeah, like our job is not to have like perfectly luminant, shaded human character because all the departments down the line would have the ability to do that, like the lighting department, the color keys coming from, you know, production design. I'm like really, I'm speaking to the animation process at this moment, which is, you know, the camera and lighting are usually divided into two different rounds.

That's someone like me. Camera composition, white, what kind of movement, why do we do it, how do we want to stage our shoot, what's the camera language, all of that is kind of under my domain. But then lighting is handled by a totally different department that later on at the very tail end of the pipeline, they get to do that final render. For the first time, I think on Rio is going to merge both of them

to get more, because now we get to play, with lights in very real-time scenario, which we didn't get to do that before. Like even before, even if I tried to come up with some sort of lighting, you're getting like eight to 16 lights at most, and that you can kind of put a palette together. But now we get to really, you know, light it, you know, for what it is? It just comes down to, so what does that make for the lighting department? Are we going to bring them up earlier to have that collaboration? So there's going to be this whole revamp of pipelines to come because of new technology.

And it's a very exciting time, but it's also, I just feel like I'm always learning. Yeah. Yeah. Because that was kind of one thing I wanted to know, especially in previous, is like how does what you do as a cinematographer differ from a, let's say, physical cinematographer? Because I know, you know, that I can't remember what film, but someone was like, oh, yeah, this animated film, the DP was Roger Deacons. And I was like, well, kind of. Like, what did he, what did he come in and say? Because I saw an interview.

And he's like, I don't know. I told him I put the camera there and then I left. Is it, is it, it's an interesting conversation. You're asking a lot of really good questions. Did, unlike for Pi, we had shot, we had. previous like an hour and a half of the film, before a physical camera was even appeared, you know, I think they had determined that Claudio Miranda's was going to be the D.P. for the project, which is super talented and you end up winning the film, winning this DP, best cinematography for Life of Pie. And also right now with, you know, Top Gun Maverick, that you think you're just like are the most fun film, you know, that's all the whole. Yeah, absolutely.

So it was an honor to be able to that kind of work, you know, with him on Life of Pi during that time. And but he was always an interesting thing that nowadays so many people touch the material before a camera actually comes on set. Life of Pie was, you know, especially with all the ocean sequences, we had, we previous the whole thing because part of it, is to problem solve. You know, you have a tiger in a boat in the ocean. Sometimes you're dealing with six foot waves. Sometimes you're dealing with 50 foot waves. You have different weather conditions.

And how are you going to communicate that information to your crew without having animated out to be something that people can watch and be like, oh, I see what you're saying. During life of pride, when I first, when they first, it was Patrice Avery, a friend of my at Dreamworks, who actually was talking to me about that project and sent me just script. I read the Life of My script and I didn't get it. It was a weird script because it was so technical in a lot of sense, you know, like the poor side of the boat, you know, the roar, you know, the life jacket and the vest and it's like a lot of things that you really

need to understand how the, you know, how, how the pictures. Yeah, the pieces that are interactive, the ship from that time, like, the, you what, what, there's a lot of, a lot of things that that just didn't have in my head. And it's until we, you know, I was on that project with Bradley Alexander, who was a member of Haylon Entertainment, which was a previous company. that was started from the same group of people that from Lucasbell, you know, when I first started my career,

that little piece by piece going through every saying, sitting down with Ang, helping him visualize those, and beginning to see the old picture come together. And so, yeah, the film was, there was like a whole animated version of life eye that no one got to see, and that was actually what ended up green lighting,

the project and you have, you know, a real DP that comes on. And sometimes I wonder, when he comes on, you see, like, dude, you guys already figure all this shit out. Like, what am I doing here? Is this boring for him? Like, I sometimes ask myself of that question where she gets so used to that now because everything they do is either following the storyboards or following a previs. Because some of these, like, bigger budget films, you just don't show up on set and be like,

I feel like I want to, you know, I want to place the camera right here because it feels good. Like, you don't, a lot of times you don't have the time to do that because millions of, you know, thousands, hundreds, thousands of, you know, dollars is getting burned, like, per day kind of thing. And so everything is down to such a surgical way to approach things that. So I do, I do think that there's still two different crafts. digital cinematography and real cinematography, I would never claim myself as like a director

of photography on the physical set because we just work with such different toolsets. You know, like to really carry the camera like Deakin really operate his camera. There's nowhere to do that. But I can operate a shit out of a, you know, my camera that makes it feel like

there's a person behind it, you know? and that was oh sorry go ahead no no no go ahead well well no you're good people are here to listen to you not me um but uh i think i would still consider you a real cinematographer i suppose my question was just more like i guess in one way you said like you don't deal with lights as much you know right you think about it but it's not part of the program we always try to find ways to have that be part discussion, but it was never really falling under the, um, the responsibilities of like a head of layout or head of previous. Right. At this in animated world, animation world, and in live accent, certainly that's like a DLP's job. Yeah. Yeah. So your thing is more compositional.

But then it also makes me think like you get Claudio, like you're saying, does, is he bored or is he pissed off that like someone else already deped this? Like, you know, all the, if I showed up and they're like, here's where you're putting the camera. It's like, well, all right, but what do you need, you need me to say yes? Like, what do you need me to do? Yeah, no, no, it's, it's totally right. And I believe, like, man, there are DPs that don't like that, you know, there are DPs who love to shoot more organically to, like, get onto the environment and really feel the light of that day and try to find things. I think there's so much more opportunity to do stuff like that had like a more character-driven content, you know, like D.K.

Roger Deacon, for all the super cool Blade Runner projects or so on, you know, I, I think like something like Sakario is so beautiful that is like to read just how he kind of utilizes the light and, you know, in that part of the world. and to really being like open to the weather conditions of that day, all that stuff. I had done a short film. I had done a couple of short films, but one in particular named Hayden that we shut down, like it was a live-action short film with, there was an animation component to it, but all the actors are, you know, live action

at Canada Alejandro is a actor on it we live on streets in downtown and it was a chase we're shooting things out of context

out of water because that's very common and we're just you know get the most out of that day and suddenly you know we were saying that

a storm was in a row in and that this time it's going to start raining and if we don't get it done before that that time, then suddenly you'll have this weird thing where the downtown turns from one shot of no rain to rain, raining. And it was just like became this ticking clock as we're trying to get all the footage.

That kind of stuff, you just don't get in animated films, right? Animated films, like I make the whole film in my sweatpants, you know, in front of my computer. And so I think, yeah, like a younger version myself. It's like, I want to go to like some crazy third world country that waiting at, you know, the magic hour in the middle of nowhere for this like one beautiful shots. And now with his and, you know, family, I'm like, this is like actually pretty cool that I get, you know, get to make the film just in my sweatpants, you know, in front of the computer. So are you able to do your job now, like obviously, most of us are working from home, but have you been able to stay there? Are you still going into an office? There's some kind of hybrid work thing

that you're doing with animation? Because I know all the editors that I've interviewed the last two years really actually shored up a lot of their workflows collaboratively. Because, you know, they didn't have to be in the same office now because they'll use, one guy was using Discord as like an intercom, you know, they've got Frame IO, you've got Evercast, fucking Google Drive, you know, all these ways to in real time share assets

and notes. Yeah, no, I think the pandemic has changed the way we work. Significantly, I, certainly right now companies are trying to get people back a little bit more. Well, they're paying for that real estate. Yeah. How to get you back in it. They've got to make it worth it. I'm able to do hybrid going in a few days a week, but able to do.

most of what I need to do to sing from my computer I think the whole entire my entire experience on Magician's Elephant was I started working on that show like on the week of the lockdown

elephant on it was like wow we have to figure out how to meaningfully work you know have digital virtual production in a real way and I think really from that point on all the animation pictures

overnight became virtual production, you know, so that terminology has really kicked in because of pandemic, more than like technology acceleration, you know, is that really, I don't have a qualm, you know, working from home. I think, I do think you're losing a little bit of that, like, human interaction that is unintended human interaction that is very valuable. like after you get off a meeting from a office with a group of people when you're walking down the hallway and you're chatting about random things where you're just going to don't get to do that when you're on a zoom meeting that is like scheduled to oh meetings ended goodbye guys and everyone just like disappears right right so from a human human relationship building aspect i don't think is this strong but from a product. activity standpoint, I find myself able to get actually more done and able to communicate more clearly through something like Zoom. Because everyone gets such a clear view of what everyone's

trying to show and everyone can draw and entertain on it and make notes and it just becomes a really kind of interactive session. Whereas like back then in like being at a studio, Yes, sometimes you go in for a meeting at the meeting room, but it's really the only person that's driving that meeting room, driving the projector that has to control everyone else. It's just weird parking, and there's people in the back that might not see the screen as clearly. And then also, like, when you try to get everyone there,

a lot of people don't show up on time. Yeah. For some reason, everyone shows up on time, because you just have to, like, wake up and turn on your computer. Yeah. Yeah. it's yeah i uh it's kind of funny this it's almost like what we were talking about with the i thinking about like human artists but uh in terms of like the human impact of being in person

but i remember when the pandemic first started and we were all like forced to be at home i was interviewing someone who was the head of this animated show for quibby rip uh and uh they were they were saying how it was like same thing they were more productive at home but then they would like wrap a show and they were a weekly show like they uh it was somehow it was they were animating uh every week

like every like star like um South Park you know or like it they didn't back anything oh wow like the whole pipeline yeah was if we turn something around in week okay okay um because I think it had to do

it had to know what it was is it was weekly horoscopes but that was the um uh the bones for the story of their little animated thing. Anyway, it was an interesting idea.

But the thing that they said that they were missing was they would like wrap a show and then you would just log out and now you're time to go make spaghetti or whatever. You know, there was no... Like the celebratory... Yeah, none of that.

Yeah, that is a little bit weird for sure. And I've talked to some friends that are doing kind of what I do. do. And nowadays, like a lot of people feel it's just a blur. You know, they're, they're just hopping from content to different content, but they're in the same chair. They're in the same on the drive, the same room. Whereas, you know, typically, historically, you jump from one studio to another studio, have different offices, you have different equipment. And all of that becomes like timestamps over the years. I can see that. I can see that very much. And one

thing to add also to that is during the pandemic, I've realized people who have like a unit, you know, like a family unit, either you have, you know, you have a significant other or someone who can endure the pandemic with you, they seem to thrive a lot better than like the single young people who are really by themselves and being locked in and definitely suffer during that time. And so I think it truly reflects differently between different people just based on their kind of family unit, you know, and the support system that they have. That makes total sense due to circumstances. My girlfriend moved in with me like right at the beginning of the pandemic. And now that you, now that you mentioned that, I'm like, you know, that does

make logging out like being done. Like, I could continue to edit or whatever it may be. I do a lot of coloring. I did a lot of coloring over the pandemic and now I'm still doing coloring. But younger me without my girlfriend living with me absolutely would have just gremlin doll night and finished a project versus like, all right, you know what? It's 8 o'clock. I should go eat dinner.

Like I should go talk to, I haven't seen her all day, you know, even if we're in the same house. That's a good point. And if all you, like that was, you would have a. different completely different lifestyle like without that there you know yeah yeah that is strange that's what i'll have to think about i did want to ask uh being a sort of digital cinematographer what were some of your um cinematic influences like where where do you see because obviously with more traditional deep pieces it's kind of like this look building thing but since yours is so

composition so compositional and so like um the essence of cinematography Like, what do you look at as, like, great set of photography that's inspired you? I mean, certainly, I mean, as an illustrator that became the guy that's behind, like, a digital version of a camera, you definitely gravitate towards really good composition, really good imagery's earlier on. When I was younger, I was heavily into comic books. And at some point, I was like drawing my own comic books. And so that within itself is like a practice in different framing, composition, you know, different formats. And certainly, and definitely, I think using my college years that I transitioned more from, like, the comic world into motion arts, into cinema, that becomes more of something that I look at at, people be like, hey, Gary, have you seen the original?

Blay Runner. And, you know, before college, I was never really dying to set them up. And I, you know, I was going and study, like, old Kerosaur films and, you know, from, or like Apocalypse Now or, you know, there's Stanley Kubrick's films. I think really the experience of Lucas Fell College that starts to kind of get much more things to think about on a set, on like a, like why films are shot a certain way. Jurassic Park was like something that kind of was the reason why I'm done to the industry, which is I was blown away by the craft of what may believe could be. I think there's definitely a natural progression of that, the type of R I gravitate towards. So, your Jurassic Park, the Matrix, the only one for me, like stuff that are kind of bigger than life, you know, fantasize world, that it's just stuff that like wows, like, you know, child like boyhood, fantasy of like this sci-fi thing. And then, you know, you, later on watching stuff that are developed appetite for stuff. for things that's a little bit more sophisticated.

That's no longer about those spectacles. You know, like for a while, I was into JJ Abrams' sensibility, you know, with very... Fringe. Fringe, like, exactly fringe. Fringe is a great one. Alias was a great one. Like, things are very dynamic, you know, quake cuts, fast-moving, camera shakes,

let us flare, blah, blah, blah. And then you kind of nowadays, like nowadays, nowadays, I'm really into, you know, something that doesn't get disturbed as much. You're really seeing the shot for his composition, like a lot of Danny Villanue's films that there's sense of tension just in that quietness, the stillness, like you get more when the camera isn't moving, right? Like, whereas JJ is like, you get more because camera is moving. And, actually, obviously the inspirations to Roger Deacons,

Emmanuel Lubensky, Gravity, Children of Man, those, those gone. Children of us. Huge with that joint came out. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And it didn't do well. You know, a lot of people didn't even see it.

But he was like a cinematic explosion. Yeah, he was like, that it was just so unique, so wrong. so wrong and how they're able to achieve it. Emmanuel LeBensky actually came to DreamWorks, and I was during the time that I was working at DreamWorks, who kind of gave a talk on the camera sensibility and blah, blah, blah, blah. Super cool guy, and I, you know, I wish that one day had met him at that time because of that talk.

But he had talked about how every film he does, it comes down to the rules that he's putting, And the way they, he wants to make sure that the camera has it, as a camera rule to the, like the restrictions, quote. Restrictions, yeah. Children and men never has like a helicopter shot. All the shots, you know, a majority of them are shot by like people hide. And it's all those things that you later on watch a film again after listening to him. I go, wow, that's like, she's totally true.

There's like intention behind this. So I think what gets me excited these days is to. to look at the material and to look at what this material invites me to do, right? Like, deconstruct the material based on either the tone or the type of character or the character dynamics of the character. So when you have those two characters on camera, how are you composing? What kind of feeling you want to get? Or, like, there are certain, you know, the introductions of a character do you want him to

a bit present, small present, you know, how much of the frame you're giving, a frame real estate, you're giving it to him. So just kind of deconstruct a material into visual components and try to tie them into how you shoot it and then try to find a cohesive language that doesn't make it feel like this is a film that's shot by five different, you know, intentions, right? right um so that's yeah but i think the influence definitely changed over time it was from something that's more i can't to something that i'm understanding why these you know these films or like why stan y cuckoo why the shining is being studied so much right like what is that sensual as a composition that's making me so uncomfortable, you know, like why, like how this involves certain emotion. Yeah. That big, that whole, the whole thing of that conversation is very, very fascinating to me.

And I'm still, I'm definitely learning still, you know, I'm, I'm still on the, I'm on, I'm, I like to think that I'm at the beginning of my journey, you know, um, yeah, I don't know if that answers. No, totally. And honestly, to your point about rules, you know, one, this will be the 75th episode that I've named drop David Venture, but I studied him a lot. Oh, yeah, he's a huge influence of my way. Sorry. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of impossible to ignore him at this point. But, you know, he said something a while ago. I think it was for the game commentary, but I heard it in college and it didn't make any fucking.

sense to me. He said, when you can do anything, when the audience knows you can do anything, it's more important about what you don't do. And in my head, I just could not get what that meant. I was like, what do you mean you don't? Like, you don't do everything. And it's like, yeah, but you got to narrow down that slice. And it's like what, you know, it's those rules that the manual is talking about. It's like what, if you can move the camera anywhere, where don't you put the camera, that will inform what your style is and what your storytelling is, what your language is more so than huge spectacle and stuff. And I also think it comes down to like a maturity thing, like, because I'm kind of in the same boat where now I'm more interested in

those sort of locked off camera character driven things than the films that inspired me like your fight club or your Matrix or, you know, like men in black. Right. Yeah. And those like animated films, they're a high sci-fi action. films that, like, really got me into film that I still love. I mean, they're still my favorite genre by far. But, yeah, now I'm more willing to watch Criterion stuff now as an adult. Like, like, you said, Vitis is, is mentally stimulating versus, like, walking into, you know, a lot of films today where before you start the first brain, you already know what's going to happen.

You know, you already know, no, characters will be fine. They're going to win. There's a final battle. And David Fincher is definitely a huge influence, like Fight Club, you know, Zodiac. His sensibility is, I think, the girl with dragon tattoo, all of that. And I love the fact that him and Tim Miller are doing these, like, are producing these like Love, Death, and Robot series. Such a great series. It's just super cool.

Like I'd love to be able to participate, you know, in one of those. projects and for some reason he's always able to like even though I have no idea what his age is probably he's much older than me but she just always seems so fresh still like at the at the cusp of what's new what's technology I don't think he's ever yeah he's just such a unique filmmaker that um I remember one of his another quote is there's only one way to shoe as saying the right way. Right. Right.

And you're like, the other way is, oh my God. Yeah. It's like, okay, okay, tell me that you know what you're doing, you know. It is, that's something that I've kind of like taken a heart actually is like, we all know the correct way to do it or the way that something should be done and it's very easy to give yourself an excuse not to do it that way. Oh, that would take too much time, it'd take too much money, it'd be whatever. And it's like, all right, we'll find a way. Like, find a way to do it the right way. Otherwise, what are you doing?

You know? But speaking up, that's another guy who previsors the shit out of his films. I know Panic Room specifically was like, there's an entire, that film exists in an animated form as well. I believe there was like a, the DP on Zodiac, I think, which is blinking out in the name. It wasn't Corona Went, right? It was No, it's not

Jeff Conner with it Coralwick is kind of a Let me It's someone that Finchers work with many times But I think Uh

Looking it up Oh, you know why Is he did It's no Harris Avitas I guess he really, I've heard, because I know people who worked on Zodiac, I heard he really, a lot of times doesn't like to work with David Fincher because of how surgical he is. Anyways, you know, everything is already pre-boarded, so he just show up to place the camera there

to watch to match storyboard. Some DPs like to be spontaneous, want to take the camera, move it around, do different things. I think it's just everyone subjectively have their own method of doing things. I got to interview Eric Messerschmitt for devotion, but I didn't want, because I'm a big Fincher fan, I made sure not to ask about it until he brought it up, because I'm sure every interview he's ever done. They're like, so anyway, mine hunter. But he seems to like that workflow. I don't want to speak for him, but he did seem to think that like it makes, because Because he came up through the lighting department too.

So I think he likes, and I could see why this would be attractive because I think I would like this too. It's like, instead of having to be so on edge about what you're doing as a DP, you can kind of sit back and put out fires and oversee departments. And it takes a lot off your shoulders and you can take more of a logistical role that the DP still has to do anyway. And you can focus on those logistics more of getting the shot that the director wants first. having to come up with them, which some people might find not chill. You know, some people want to impart their look on the thing, and some people are happy to be a part of the process. I feel like I kind of sit in that ladder camp.

I don't necessarily feel like I can see that too and look on something. On the personal level, I've worked with directors that wants to explore, wants to do things. You're like, I kind of get a sense of what this sequence should be. You guys go and start shooting. You know, we'll get your footage, piece it together. during an edit room. And you have someone like Ayn Lee, who is like naturally saying next to me going, we want the camera to be four feet off the ground, you know, 50 millimeter shooting pies,

you know, three quarters of the back face. And the sun is like at like 45, you know, 38 degree angle. And I just became his hand in like, like his eyes in kind of crafting these shots. in both scenarios equally satisfying because ultimately we're here just serve the director's vision

you know a lot of I definitely have friends that get on shows we're just like oh we don't get to be creative but I think

ultimately you just you find ways to you know to serve that film for the director yeah that's the that's that's the crowd yeah well I feel like

to if you have enough of those gigs where you don't get to execute your creativity, you can find, you know, music videos or shorts or something where you have a little. Yeah, you just go make your own project, you know, like this. Yeah, totally. Not that it's that easy, but there is outlets, you know. Could the, what was I going to say? Because I know I got to let you go here, we're kind of going a little over time. But, um, oh, it had something to do with anime.

Yeah, 230. I have a meeting, but. Hard out. Okay. Well, we'll, we'll get you out so you can prepare for that. What was the last thing you were? worked up, because I know you're, I didn't, so I just say yes to every interview because I found everyone's an amazing person to talk to. I can't remember why they emailed like what project technically you're supposed to be promoting. It's magician's elephant. It was magician's elephant. Okay, okay, cool. And that's on Netflix, right? Yes, it's on Netflix. It's coming out on

17th this month. Cool. Um, his side, I was the head of previous on that project. Yeah, he was working with director Wendy Rogers, who have had a relationship with Pryor, who was a visual effects supervisor. And she, because of that, it was such a shorthand to be able to work with her and communicate. And she's her and the producer, Julia Pister, were both having, you know, live action background. Julia, in fact, Magistice's Elephant's her first animated project. Oh, cool. And Magistice's Elephant at one point

was going to be a live action film, by the way. But at some point, they pivoted into an animated project. But because of their live action background, there's just a lot of shorthands that we have in terms of communicating, you know, the language, the entire cast of that film. It's like a human world, human space. So we really tried to shoot it and kind of use utilizing like a physical camera

that behaves in a live action, you know, shoot. That was something that we lean on for that project. Yeah, so he's coming out. It was with production designer Max Bowes. It was with the editor Robert Fisher, who edited it, Spider-verse. Oh, there you go. Talk about the animated film.

Yeah, no. It's a group of very talented people. That, yeah, it was one project that worked entirely in my sweatpants because of pandemic. And I couldn't think of a better group of people to be doing that, you know. Because in pandemic, I think even now that we look back, we can joke about these things. But during that time, it was kind of worrisome and scary because we're like where the world is going, you know, how. So there are just some of the best people that I've had the chance to work with. And it's really, really, and pandemic aside, is a sophisticated project in the sense,

that it's not a bombastic animated film that's trying to get to some sort of like final battle resolution is very nuanced because it was based on a live action script. So it's really about character relationships. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful design world as well. Well, it's kind of a lovely film, isn't it? It's not like to, from the bit that I saw looking it up like it's kind of a nice it's like it must have been a pleasant thing to work on versus like being in the pandemic and having to work on i don't know something like annihilation i'm sure could be like well yeah it's everywhere oh it's so positive yeah it's you're totally right you need you hit it down in the head it's a it's a it's a positive film a sweet film

a ron kongish you know in in terms of tone that I, doing pandemic and also the election, also the, like, doing that whole time, there was just a lot of stress in this world. And I feel like, like, Richard Zelvin was a good antidote to that. It's a good head space to be in, for sure. Yeah, we were all perpetually online during the worst possible time to be online. I know, I know. go ahead yes oh no i was going to wrap it up what were you going to say oh no no i i i i feel

that now i'm going to go and start listening to your podcast oh cool um well i would i would i'm doing this by the way this is the third year okay okay yeah so we're we're well along we've had amazing guests that you're among um very happy with how the show's been going so uh hopefully we'll At one point, I would like a sponsor. I would like to get paid to do this at some point. It's about 100. I think you'll probably be episode 100 or somewhere near there. And yeah, if anyone's listening, I want money.

Let's put it out there. Yes. Yeah, put the feelers out there. But I would love to have you back on it because I actually, a lot more things I've thought about that I'd love to talk about, you know, especially like your time at Lucasfilm. Like kind of the soft tools that you must have been given there. A friend of mine works with, um, um, um, Adam Savage of the Myth Busters. And he often has little...

Oh, yeah, tidbits that he got at... Industrial Light Match Street. Yeah. It's such a unique. Like, I love the fact that that show existed. You know, it became a thing. It's super cool. Yeah.

Yeah, no, thank you so much. I... This is, like, the most casual conversation I've had, you know, like, and I love, I love this format. I it's one of the things that you're like oh man it's just like a really official thing is it really serious and no and thanks for being so accommodative and friendly through this conversation of course um yeah i'll uh i'll let you get your meeting but please uh please keep in touch and we'll uh well fuck you live in l a man we'll just grab a beer or something yeah please reach out no though please let's do that and and uh yeah go watch the film March 17 and you know and check on my work on my website Gary H.B.com yeah absolutely awesome thanks man thank you so much appreciate it take care frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me Kenny McMillan and distributed by pro video

coalition our theme song is written and performed by mark pelly and the f-at-art matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax branding company you can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.