Frame & Reference Podcast - 93: "Mrs. Davis" DP Xavier Dolleans

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

On this weeks episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Xavier Dolleans about the Peacock series "Mrs. Davis." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 93 with Xavier Dolion, DP, have a couple episodes of Miss Davis on Peacock. Enjoy. So the Miss Davis show, did that premiere at Southide? Yeah, yeah, I did that show. Actually, I did episode three and four. So in Austin, it was episode one and two, done by my good friend, Joe Anderson. He's the main DP actually of Mrs. Davis, and he did episode one, two, five, and eight.

and I did three and four. And two other DP did one, one did episode seven, and another one, J.K. Tell did some part of episode three and four also in Los Angeles. We were four of them. Nice. Did, was that, was that your first time at South Park? Yeah, first time at the festival. First time also in Austin, you know, great city, a lot of sun.

I have to prepare to Los Angeles where I am now. And also, yeah, also good, I mean, that's a good place where the tech is meeting the TV and also the movies and the music. So that was really interesting to meet all those people from different background, you know, and to talk about technology, but also science and also what is going to happen next. And what are you going to see in the movies and in the TV series related also to artificial intelligence, you know? That was a big topic, actually. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, there's like three questions in there. But the AI thing, let's just jump into that.

Did you happen? I just talked about this recently with a animator. But did you see the, was it, Corridor Digital AI animation thing? Yeah. What was your take on that? I mean, that's crazy what we can do now. And I think we have to use artificial intelligence as a tool, you know, and be aware of the tool and probably put some limit of the tool to,

I mean, for the tool to stay a tool, you know. But that's a great tool just to have an interaction, to be able to ask question and see. what the I can answer or can show you as an image and you say you can take another lead, you know, it can change your way of thinking about something or it can open you to something that you don't know also as a tool, as an image tool.

You know, right now I'm using, when I do some mood board, actually, for some interviews that I can do on other show, I'm creating a part, a category in the mood board saying, oh, look, what an artificial interface? can create with some keyword from the script itself, visually speaking. Just this is more a joke, you know, because I put a lot of movie frame references and then a small part with artificial intelligence mood, but actually it works, you know, if you are, so no, that's a great tool for me and that raises a speed also.

Yeah. This is like every day, new announcement, you know, a new app, a new plugin, a new something to, Just today, I've discovered a plugin to use chat GPD and to connect it to, I don't know, to companies to find some airplane, business trip and to find the best one to... Oh, really? Yeah, you can, yeah. You have many, many, many plugins for many, many, many things. Yeah, you can connect Chart GPT to Internet, actually, through those plugins. That's fascinating.

Yeah, I saw Google just came out with their... version of chat TPK, you know, I was giving it a test, and I was like, man, this is not. This hasn't made it. That's crazy, but that's also a really good tool. And Damon Lindelhoff, one of the show, one of the main show, one of the show, was talking about that a lot, you know, in the conferences that he did. I mean, that was really interesting for him.

This is also a tool, and you can have interaction. You can give some, lead, some ideas, and you can see what the artificial intelligence is giving you back. But also you have to set some limits for sure. And yeah, I mean, let's see what can happen with that. But every time I'm using it, this is really interesting. I've done it many times, you know. Yeah.

On the subject of, so there's a conference that Adobe does called Adobe Max. And it's kind of similar to South by in that it's like a lot of different, you know, styles of people around. And I find that gives me a lot of creative energy. You know, because being surrounded around by filmmakers all the time, conversations kind of tend to be the same. Yeah, well, I guys. But if you're talking to like musicians, for instance, I'm a musician, like that becomes more fun and you can kind of draw parallels between your work and pairs.

Did you find that at Southway? Yeah, exactly the same. Exactly what you are saying. That was really new for me because I've done many festivals. and, for example, Cannes Film Festival. Camen Image Film Festival is a good one to be connected in a good way between... This is a good sweet spot between artistry and the technical side. Some, like, Sinege is very technical, you know, but this is simi.

And then that one was really like open to everyone in a way. And I met a guy from a company who did some stats about basketball player. another guy, I made a girl about achieving the financing part of artificial intelligence. So you can see the trend, and you have new ideas, you see new people. Yeah, that's really inspiring. And that was very new for me, this kind of festival. Yeah. Where do you find yourself on the sort of tech artistry line?

Because a lot of DPs sometimes come from a very artistic background. don't care about the tech and some are like myself tend to come from excitement about technology and that brought me into cinematography. Yeah, I think I'm just in the middle, actually. I'm initially I was, I'm fascinating by both actually and I'm fascinating by images and also by the technology and the tools. So think for me there is something really. interesting when you work as a GOP, which is you are using the tool to create an idea and to reveal this idea in the real world. You know, you create something from scratch from an idea and you know about the tools. So that's very important to know about the tools, especially

right now because everything is digital and everything is evolving very quickly. And at the same time you have to be inspired and to see many other pictures and I don't know painting sculpture photography whatever the experiences traveling the world you can see many images and light situation of lighting also when you travel a lot so all of that is mixing and then when you have an idea this kind of bridge you know between your idea and the real world this is you as a DOP and you and you and you You take some tools and you use those tools to create something. This is really fascinating that bridge for me.

And that's why I'm really in the middle. So I'm not a geek, but I'm in touch about everything happening and I'm trying new thing. And I'm trying also to explain to some directors and producers about the new and the new things and the technology around. So right in the middle, I think. Deak adjacent. Did I see, was it correct that you used to do 3D cinematography? It's kind of fallen out of fashion recently, but like early...

Were you doing 3D cinematography in the past? I ran across your Mandy profile. Yeah, no, actually I've done... Like, you know, it was a trend at the time, at the time. Just after the first avatar, actually everybody wanted to shoot in... in 3D with telegraphies. So I did the training and I did a lot of shooting like more small commercial corporate thing

at that time, probably for two years after the police of the movie. So I did the training and then for two years I shot a few things, but not that much actually right now. Nobody's really asking for something like that right now. So I'm not really into it anymore. Yeah. Did you find that with, because I think that was on your Mandy profile,

Did you find that Mandy was very helpful? Because I have yet to actually land a job on that fucking site. Yeah, actually, that's a good place to meet people in some project or crazy project. And to start also, we have the same kind of website in France called CinéCour. I don't remember Prestagis, the name. Maybe they are not existing anymore right now because it was like 20 years ago. But I checked recently like five years ago and they were still existing. So we have the same kind of this, those are good.

tools to put people in contact, Act 20, and to try to, yeah, for short film, short project. So, Mandy was interesting. Yeah, I think so. The other thing I saw was that you're sort of, did you get started in film photography, or was that just like a class you went to a school you went to or something like that? You mean, how did I start? Well, just, I saw that you had, you had gone to like a class or a school for film. photography yeah yeah actually yeah I did initially I was really fascinating by the special effects side I wanted to make some animas phonics and and fire explosion you

know those those kind of things and then but I was like 14 you know so I discovered I discovered this work of special effects on set and that was the way I was introduced to movie making and I met a few people people in Paris, they told me, oh, you should be on a set. You should try to be a training on a set because we are working a lot before to prep, but our shooting days are like only one day to make an effect, you know, and you should try maybe other work and to see how it works. So I did a training on a short film, and I was really fascinated by the work of the DOP.

I think probably because of the same aspect of using a tool, being a technician, at the service of the creative idea and a visual idea. So I moved to Paris. I was at college. I studied cinema for one year. And then I've been on set as a training assistant director for two years. And after those two years, I had the opportunity to be in that school called Louis Humier, which is a famous school in France.

and I was there following a professional training for a few weeks, a few months, actually. And it was around 35 millimeter. At that time, actually, it was probably 18 years ago, and we were still talking about the 35-millimeter cinematography as being the main thing in terms of quality. So it was probably 70 years ago. And so, yeah, I did that training. But as a DOP at that time, I was doing small thing, and it was in video. It was the beginning of the video, but not even the 5D.

No, not even the red. DVX and the XL2 and all that. Yeah, with, you know, the mini-35 adapter that you can attach. And you put those single lenses, like the Zyce, geo, those kind of things wide open at T1.3, and then you lost like 50% of the lights or maybe. It's literally like a six-stop drop using those fucking. Yeah. Yeah, and I know also the, and the texture of the moving glass actually was kind of altering the quality of the resolution, the final resolution itself.

So, I mean, that was, those were crazy tools, and then we, everybody was still talking about 35 millimeter as a big main quality reference at that time. So I followed that training, and that was really interesting. and I learned the basics of exposure and I learned the basics of of yeah taking some light ratings and I think that was really fundamental for me and I still now when I'm taking a rating

I'm still thinking about this training and yeah that was really that was really great but after that I have to say I shot maybe a few music video in 35 minimetre and then a short film another maybe like

independent movie and then that was that was it I mean the 5D arrived and then the red

the red one arrived yeah and I and we all started to work with those tools what did you

when you had the 35 adapter did you have the spinning glass one because we couldn't get one of those we had the

static glass one where you just had that you know quote unquote film grain just locked in and it looked

you know looked like you were looking through window. I had the spinning one. Yeah. You're lucky. Yeah.

I still have my XL2. Oh, yeah, yeah. I have the XL2 and the AF 100. What? This is good to have, actually, because you know, on Mrs. Davis, we did a small flashback. I can't tell anything about that, but... Yeah. I can't release this podcast until the show comes out.

So... And then we had to shoot with... We had to shoot with a video camera and the... camera and the director wanted the same look, wanted the good look, not something that we can emulate with some plugin. So we were looking for a camera and we were in Spain and actually that was really hard, really hard to find. So we finally find two or three of them and there we made some test and we ended up with a solution to record the output of it. But we, but actually the camera, the internal recorder was still working. So I bought the camera. I bought the camera. to the production saying, you know what, I want to have this tool because right now we are, if we do something vintage or a flashback or anything, this is a really good tool to have and this is very hard to find. So I have one also. Oh, it was an Excel 2? It said one. Oh, wow. Yeah. No, the, it's still a great thing. My tape, the tape deck on mine is

busted because I lent it to my friend in college. Yeah, 15 years ago, whatever was, 18 years ago. and the little firewire that tiny little firewire port is completely shot so I was testing also like DV as a look is coming the kids love DV now that's their nostalgia

yeah yeah but I found yeah I found a way to go like RCA or no S video to HDMI and then HDMI to an Odyssey 7Q plus which is just the most ridiculous like how do you

snap that to anything yeah yeah but you know So even a firewire cable, this is very hard to sign right now. Or a computer that has a firewire port on it. That's the other thing. I did a fashion shoot where these guys brought, they're from the UK, and they brought like a little handycam they found that shot DV.

And something was busted on it, so it wouldn't even record. But we were like, hey, when you're done recording, how do you plan on editing it? And they're like, oh, we were just going to get like an adapter. And I was like, no. There's no firewire to USB out there. Yeah. So you guys were just going from, oh, you said that, were you shooting to tape then on that?

Or did you use the same set up? We recorded on tape, but we were also recording with an external recorder. So we find where actually the output is SD. So we had a SD to HD converter. And then with the HD converter, we were recording into an atomos, you know, like a chain of a chain of box on the camera itself. and but that was working very well and you have the look and this is the good look

so that's a beautiful tool to use that's why I'm about it from the production it's it is interesting to go back and go through the tools that are on that camera and realize like how far we've come like I remember when recording the SD came out that was a huge deal but like even just going like oh what color temperature

you got tungsten daylight or custom you know like see I remember waveforms when waveforms came out how big of a deal that was too yeah interesting how but you still have like custom picture profiles on that on the xlc i don't know about the excel one but excel too you can dial in like the look that you want in the camera yeah you can also a little bit adjust actually this is not a log signal actually you are touching on image in many ways but that you can still customize actually this is the basics of the video signal in that and those kind of camera Yeah. Did you do any of that adjustment, or did you just kind of leave it stock and then worry about it for post?

We checked everything, but we didn't do any adjustment. Yeah. Did you go with the same, just the Excel lenses as well? Yeah. The initial set. Everything was brand new. Actually, the camera was kind of untouched, you know. I don't know why, but... Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I guess when 28 days later came out, that that camera really hit. Yeah. For speed. That was one thing I wanted.

It seems that I'm just doing some research on you that you've really taken to using the Venice on more of your projects. Yeah. Is there a specific reason why you tend to lean towards that? Is it just a good relationship with Sony or is there other kind of technical considerations? No, now I have a good relationship with Sony, but I mean... Oh, sure. No, initially, that's a good relationship.

good question, actually. How? Why? I became a big user of Sony Venice. Actually, we, in, I don't remember, I think it was in 2018. I was shooting at that time in 2017, I shot season one and two of a TV series called Scam. Scam France was an adaptation of a Norwegian TV series called Scam about teenagers. And so we shot season one and two with Alexa, Mini. at that time, not LFs, the mini Super 35, and then we, on season three and four, the script came and we, I was talking with the director saying, we have so many nights and scam, we had to shoot like, I don't know, 15 pages a day, like big reason, but not on set. So it was, everything was outside, so you are on location and you are shooting at night. And on those scripts, a lot of, lot of sequences were happening at night. So I went, I think I was talking with a rental, with some rentals, and one of them told, they told me, oh, you should try, you should try the Vigam 35, and you should try the Sunny Venice. And so actually, I did some tests with Sunny Venice.

And I did the test, I did those tests, beginning of, 2018 with firmware 1 and on firmware 1 only 500 ISO was available at that time

so that was not good but then when I did the test again for the TV series scam to a September

I think then that was like firmware 2 was released and you have this new sensitivity

2,500 ISO like a new world you know so basically you have two channels of analog

amplification you have the 500 and then you have the 2,500 on which you can apply an electronic amplification so you can play with electronic ISO you can push it and at a time I did some test and I realized I can push up to 6,400 with some noise correction for the post-production in the TV world for small screen

so we were so happy that was brand new and nobody was using those cameras at that time, 2080. especially in France Alexa was coming there yeah and we also we shot we realized that our lenses I was using some

a cook pancro so the new one I mean not the old S2 S3 but there was a Pancro classic kind of old lens formulas but in new housing and that was beginning of a trend and now this is a trend you have a lot of old lenses formula

not so well corrected in beautiful housing like Atlas ORA Orion, Zelma, Salamorphic, or Cadwell Camelon that we were using on Mrs. Davis. So we use those croncrow and we realized that on, I think it was the 50, the 50s, the 75 and the Android was, they were covering actually the full frame. And everybody was, all my friends told me, but why are you shooting full frame? So actually we shot season four on Super 35 and we were cross-boarding. I shot all the sequences of season four in full frame,

to have two different look. And that was very new. And everybody was telling me that, why do you need full frame? And I was like, actually, the image is more precise. And the grain, with a downscale, the grain is smaller, so we can push a little bit more the image and everything appear a bit smoother

on the skin and everything. And we were, in 2020, 2018, you know, and also then after, after that, I did a, think I did a TV series called Mental in 2019, and then I was using only, I did the use of only the extension unit, so small extension. Oh, the realto. Yeah, the realto. And because the director, he was coming from the 5D world, he was very used to to use as a small tool that it can go everywhere with to find, to look for a shot. So I told him, look, we are going to have beautiful quality,

and you are going to be free to look for. So on every different show, I've tried to use the Venice in different configurations setups. And then we shot season 5 and 6 of SCAM on Anamorphic. And it was probably firmware 3 at that time. and they pushed a little bit more the things and I was so happy with everything in low lights but again we had so many shots

and sequences to shoot in very low light in Paris and no time, not so much time to light especially the background you can light the closet but you can't light I mean the white shot so I was so happy to push the camera and to discover the camera

and also everything you can have in terms of colors in the low light and that was very new for me so I shot since probably 20, yeah, 2018. Everything with the Sony Venice, except Mrs. Davis. Because every time I was doing some parallel test, you know, you put every camera that you know

on a parallel side-by-side testing, and you push them doing some contrast and low light and you can see what you can have in high lights and what you can bring back and everything. So I was like, every time I did the test, every time the Sunnivenis was a big, winner. Yeah.

It's such a versatile camera. Yeah. Yeah. But yesterday I did the same test at the camera division in Los Angeles with the Alexa 35 and maybe now the Alexa 35 is the big winner. I have to confirm those tests with my colors because he has to work on the images, but something new is happening with that camera. Yeah.

I've yet to see anyone I know like use it or be able to really test it. So I'm interested to hear what you'll come up. with and you figure that out. I have also a recent con. I got the C500 Mark 2. And that was the first full frame. I never shot 5D or anything. I was still,

I preferred video cameras, just for XLRs and stuff, but built in Indies. But it really does like everyone, I got the same question. Why do you care about full frame? Especially people who like can't afford it. They like to go, you don't need it.

I'm like, yeah, you don't need it. But I've noticed that, like you were saying, it's not, you would assume that it would be like sharper and more clinical, but it's like smoother. Everything's smoother. Yeah. I got a GFX 50R, the medium format stills camera. Yeah. And it just, it's like, I want to say it's easier to light, but when you do light things, like it feels like you can get every millimeter of fall off instead of on the sharp. It really is nice.

And it's, yeah, the whole conversation with, oh, it's full frame. depth the field, depth of field, it's like, that's a lens, that's a lens thing, not a, not a sensor thing. That's a question and that's a good question and that's funny because actually this is kind of, we have a rush

regarding pixel, you know? This is a big run of more pixels. So what's happening? Oh, if we have to extend the size of the sensor, what is the next standard that we already know and we already have the lenses that are able to cover it.

So from Super 35, we switch to full frame, you know, which is a regular format for photography. It was known that Vista vision in the film world. So that's funny to see that. And then now we are moving to 65. which is an already known format in film photography too. We are pushing. There is a rush for more pixels,

but this is not, this is, this is not really the question of, of, yeah, of more pixel, because now we see that when we have more pixel, we can resolve a better image. So if we are a round shape, this is easier to resolve the round shape with more pixels.

So everything seems to be softer and you have a smooth image and this. So this is a big question, but for me, this is not a real issue to have more pixel. You know what I mean? Yeah. And also there is another reason why everybody moved to full frame. Actually, that's funny because when Netflix said,

you know what, we need a 4K negative. Actually, actually the R.E. camera, we are not able to do that. It was 3.2 So I read it very quickly something that they stacked together to sensor saying, oh, we are able to do more horizontal resolution. By the way,

it's going to be full frame. It's okay for everybody because it's kind of a trend right now, so maybe we are going to be, so then everybody move full frame. But not really because of the full frame thing, more because of the need of more than 4K horizontal resolution

as a negative, you know. And as everybody is, as Harry is the main, I mean, actor of the camera industry, I mean, they push everybody to use the full frame. But right now, when we are shooting with Alexa 35, you realize that the camera is a lot better in terms of sensor, low lights, highlights, colors, and everything. So I think you can shoot a lot of things in super 35, you know. So this is a proof that probably the push to the full frame is very interesting, but not necessary for everybody. Yeah. Well, and my colleague from Pro Video Coalition, Art Adams, just put a video. He works for Ari now.

And he's their lens specialist. But he just did a video that came out like two, three days ago at the time of this recording about the reveal color science that they're using. obviously the highlight retention on the 35 is nuts but just the way that they've been able to handle those outlier colors your classic brake lights purples have really been handled well on the

35 yeah from what I have seen yesterday I mean they did something great and also in the low light with the ES function and all the texture tools this is a very good those are very good new tools and this is great because that means that they are listening a lot of the DPs,

you know, many, many people are asking for those things. So that's great. Yeah, that's actually something I didn't want to ask you specifically, but since you have played with that camera. Is the texture tool basically just imparting grain into the original camera negative? Because the way it was kind of described to me privately was like, well, DPs hated that the colorist or the editor could fuck with the image. So they're like, well, I'm just going to put the grain that I want in it, and now they can't get rid of it. Yeah, this is the case, yeah.

Yeah, okay, cool. You shoot in Pro Reyes or if you shoot in a row, this is not a metadata. This is burn into the image. So you have to make very specific tests, especially in theater if you are shooting for a movie. You have to make some tests on a big screen. But you have also to make some tests

if you are shooting for a small screen, actually because you have to push a little bit more if you want to fill the grain, you know? Yeah. The grain thing is very interesting, you know, because we are talking about the brain to add some texture on everything. And sometimes, many times when you are in post,

you are working with a colorist. And when you do some, when you do the export, and when you stream, when you stream an image with the grain, you can have many, many artifacts. happening, you know? Macroblock and I don't know bending you can have so many artifacts so right now I know that Netflix they are using a specific platform

when you want to add some grain you can test on the platform you can see what your final image will be and that's a very interesting way of working with that because we most of the time when when you had some grain you you don't know what's going to happen when you are going to stream well as far as I'm aware Netflix maybe this was someone guessing but I thought I saw like a white paper where Netflix was basically taking the original image streaming it and then on the user side

reapplying the grain Oh yeah Okay I don't know about this but I know that for the test when you do your grade you have an access to a specific platform to see what's going to happen

That's nice of them Yeah that's a good way also to have a good conversation with the cinematographer, with all the filmmakers, actually. This is because everybody is asking for some grain. Right. Well, and it kind of goes against the idea that we want higher and higher resolution because you do for capture, but for display, we end up squashing all that resolution

in a lot of that dynamic range a lot of times. That's a big topic. We are talking about that since the beginning of the digital age, actually, I think. Yeah. I same thing with, you know, frame rate. Like the younger folks seem to think that like, you know, 60 frames is clearer. You're like, yes, but for fantasy, you know, for films, not all films are fantasy films, but like for transporting you somewhere else, for some reason, like lowering the resolution, lowering the temporal resolution with frame rate, fucking with colors that they look unreal, allows you to know. not allows you to go to that place. It's not reality. It's not the news. You know, it's something else.

It's like a storybook. Yeah. Or like a painting. Yeah. I do agree with that. But also for me, this is very good to have the opportunity to use those tools, you know. Yeah. Because we were like 24, you know what I mean?

Or we were, I don't know, 50 or in the U.S. I mean, you know, I mean, we were stuck to some frame rates and also some ratio, you know, the official scene ratio. And now this is elastic frame. You can do whatever you want with your framing and the ratio. You can put your ratio. And this is so great to have

those tools to express. I mean, this is a frame rate. This is a ratio. You can touch to so many things right now. I'm sure that if you at the beginning of the cinema, I mean, if you ask to the very, very old IPs at that time, if they were still alive, look, this is the two

tool that we have know and and I'm sure that they would say oh this is great can we test that can we test that oh wow wow wow I can't believe that so you know what I mean yeah for me this is this is I mean all those evolutions are really great and and you don't have to use that on every movie but this is good to know that it exists as a tool yeah it did feel like for the longest time even with early digital video film you know that you were constantly fighting against the technology to get what you wanted you know film for instance and then when you were an expert you knew you could like kind of sit back and go well i know what my uh restrictions are you know one quote that i've quoted a bunch is uh adam savage has said that like when problems come to you it's great

because or restrictions because it just hacks uh uh options off of your decision tree So once you have a narrower set of options, narrow set or a set of tools, you're able to go, oh, I only have three choices. Great. I'll pick between one of those three and still instead of stressing about the fifth one that you don't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And now we have all of them. This is part of the creative process.

But you still have some, I mean, so many issues happening, you know, and many, many situations where you have to make those choices. Yeah. It is funny how, you know, a company like Netflix or whoever can, can set really arbitrary restrictions, you know, oh, 4K 3.2 is not enough or any deliverable restrictions, but then at the same time, streaming has really opened up as you're saying, like, use any frame, any ratio you want, use any, you know, you have any color you want because of digital grading and all that. For me, especially being in France, when I saw Netflix some years. years ago, I mean, just arriving in France, and with all the protocol and the thing they were asking, that was very new. But that was a way to push the things up, actually, you know, in terms of quality, in terms of, oh, now we are all going to shoot in 4k negative for the digital negative at the minimum, you know. And they were also, I never worked for Netflix, direct

directly, but many friends of mine, and I was talking with some people from the technical side in Netflix, I have a good friend of mine with in charge of the color workflow, color pipeline for the Europe movies and series. And what they are doing is kind of set a standard but in a good way. And they are talking a lot about color space. You know, they are talking a lot. So for everybody, it was like, oh, now, guy, you have to know in which color space you are going to shoot, you are going to, you have to know more, you have to

think more about the resolution, about your lenses, the ratio, you have to explain us why you want to shoot like that. So, for many people, it was like some restrictions, but for me it was pushing the quality and don't forget that you are working with

a private studio also. For the French people, that was very new. Sure, sure. Yeah. You know, I, this is kind of jumping back quite a bit, but as I was doing research on you, I found your reel from 2013 on YouTube. And I was what, it still looks good, but I was wondering if you can like recall that that reel specifically, like what things do you think have changed about your sort of approach to shooting, your approach to lighting from that version of you to now? things maybe that have changed or maybe things that have stayed the same. Yeah, I mean, you are learning on every project, you know, this is a very basic answer.

But the thing, I mean, at that time, I was not working that much on the TV side. So I started on the TV side with very, very low-cost program, shooting, like, the first one was 18,000. pages a day. Actually, this is not low-cost. This is fast-shooting, you know, because the quality, we needed a very good quality. We were, it was a show not for the web or internet, it was for the French TV network, actually. So that was not low-cost, that was fast-shooting. And we were shooting 18 pages in every course, so we were shooting 36 pages a day. two crews with four cameras and at that time I learned a lot because I learned a lot

about shooting with two cameras and going very fast and using not so much lighting very basic kit I think yeah it was just a small truck for two cameras and the grip equipment

and the lighting equipment so I learned a lot how to use those two cameras and I learned about using what is going to happen because you know that you are going to shoot only this sequence on one hour, not the full afternoon, like on the movie, you know. So you have to shoot very fast. You have to be aware about the sun and you can say,

oh, something is happening good with the sun. You can shoot like this right now and it's going to be nice and it looks nice actually. And so I moved to other TV series like scum, still shooting very fast with more money. And then we did also germinal. A germinal was the final point of this part of my life because I moved from a show to another show with more money every time and we actually I kept in my mind how to shoot very fast to light faces beautifully and to try to from that time from 2013 to keep what I like to learn how to do it very quickly and efficiently to shoot for TV with two to three cameras. And I think it took me time to find back this technique, I mean, to find the good

technique to have the same quality of what I was doing in 2013 on short film, for example, and to have the same quality on Germinal, which was a TV series show. So it was a long travel to, you know what I mean, to read this problem, or to do those things, but a lot more efficiently. That's actually legitimately one note that I had was going to be how if you could share any of those kind of maybe tips on how to. Because I always ask this of television DPs especially is like you that you've probably worked faster than anyone else. I have 36 pages a day is a fucking lot. It was 18 for one crew.

It was anything. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Still, though. But any sort of tips on how to achieve a good high quality result. from, you know, limited resources and limited time?

That's a good question, I think. The first thing is to work with a good director. Yeah. Which means a director who is able to understand what is happening in the term of light if we do a certain type of scenes. And that means also a director with a strong visual sense. That's very important because then you are finding altogether the good angle very, very quickly when you arrive in, when you scout a location, you are finding a good spot and what is working for certain sequence.

So that's very important to being touched with your director because if not, you spend more time talking on set about this is more negotiation on every sequence and then you are losing the time. So the first thing is to be very friend with the director. The second thing is probably to, I mean, I don't know, I mean, there is a way to work in TV when you do the white shot first and then you do the close-up, basically. And this is really a pulling derm of light. So this is very important to be able to light those wide shots and to think ahead about what is going to happen for the close-ups, you know,

and what kind of quality do I want to have? What kind of contrast? What kind of feeling do I want to take in that specific sequence? So that's, you have to, if you want to use your time very efficiently, you have to prep a lot. You also, you have to do a lot of, I'm doing a lot of light blend. because you can try to arrive in the morning

and not doing that and actually it's going to work but you are not going to use the time as much efficiently as I prep a lot I do all the light plan I know what my sequence or my I know what kind of look I want for that

and everybody around is know about that my death firm, my gig with you know they are all connected to my Google Drive and they know they have the light plan coming and they are asking good question and on the day you are shooting very fast but everybody know what's going to happen and then you do more in the same time a lot more in the same time especially if you have a good crew and a crew that you know for a long time and you prep a lot

and then you still have 10 to 15 pages to shoot but you don't have the same result so I would say one director two things your lighting plan ahead and being able also to improvise a lot especially in TV, because as you are shooting not on a long period, you can use a light, you can say, oh, the sun is coming right now, and it's going to be for one hour. This is the time we have to shoot the sequence, so let's shoot with the sun. This is something that you can't do when you shoot a whole afternoon. You have to say, oh, I have the sun right now.

Do I want to use it for one hour, and then I have to mimic the sun for the rest of the day. So, yeah, you have to improvise a lot, yeah. Yeah, there's a business, he's a Navy sale. There's a guy named Jocco Wilnick who's kind of ethos, his discipline equals freedom. And I think that applies very well to pre-production. It's like if you're disciplined enough to spend the time and effort in pre-production, do the scouting and everything, the shoot day frees you up. It's a lot less stressful when you don't have to have those negotiations in that's

set you. Yeah, and that's crazy because many people think that because you are working very fast, you can't prep for everything you have to do. And this is not true. Actually, you can't prep. This is a lot of time. This is extra time on the weekend, night time after the set. You can work and you can prep. And you are going to realize actually that things are going to be smoother on set and you can do a lot more in even if you have time to do things. So that's really, and then actually this is funny because this is probably the same amount of preparation for the big project. You know what I mean? Right. Even if you have more time on the set, you prep the same way. It's, yeah. You know, you had mentioned germinal and I had

seen, you've done a few presentations on getting the show lut for that show and shooting for people listening. Basically, you shot this expired film stock or old film stock. Yeah. With the Venice and then had your colorist and your color scientists kind of figure out those contrast levels and then applied them to color. Yeah. We need on that thing.

Yeah, I've done similar things trying to image color film stocks, you know, just to make luts for my own nerdy reasons. But I was wondering what your relationship is like with your colorists. Was that a specific, like, kind of technical thing that you guys achieved? Or are you always kind of really in the trenches when it comes to your colorist work?

We are working a lot together. I mean, even when we have no movies or no TV series coming, we are talking. and we are talking about everything new and we are talking about beautiful things that we are seeing so we are talking basically about everything we like

we have the same test I think it is really important to have a colorist with the same test as you we are we know each other since probably 10 years now and we I mean when you find something this is like when you find your gaffer you know for me

the colonists So that's a very important part, especially if you want to push things. That's true. So we, on every project, we think on every project now, I'm trying to throw in the moodboard, where we are going to go. And we are talking about some look, some cameras, some lenses. He's also, he knows a lot of lenses. He's a photographer himself. I really like that because he is very sensitive to the images.

And so we are talking about lenses, characteristic of lenses. So I'm shooting some tests. I'm sending the test. He's working in Montreal right now. He's in Mels, laboratories. And yeah, I mean, we are connected. And then we, I mean, once we decide a look, he's working on his side. And I'm shooting some tests.

We are playing the look. And then a few, probably, Probably a few things need to be fixed, so that's why we work also with the color scientist. She's Floring Bell, so he is Karim El Katari, and Floreen Bell, she's the color scientist. We are working a lot together, and we are saying to Floreen, look. This is what we like in that image, but we need that to be applied for the whole movie in every situation for that camera without any color artifact, without any impact about exposure or everything. We need to have something very precise.

And she has a strong artistic taste also. So she is doing a look from that, but more technical look. Then we apply the look on some tests and we speak all together. This is a very collaborative process for me. And I'm learning a lot doing that. I don't want to be the D.P. saying, I want the black like this. I want the color like that.

Just someone that pushes a button. I want this to be a collaborative. respectful process. And at the same time, they know that I have the final world, you know. This is very clear. So we are working this way. And Florin, she's, every time she's, you know, she offers different look and from the strongest one to the lightest one. And we are playing the look and then she's correcting a little bit back. And then we start the shooting. And after a few days still I'm calling her saying, how can you adjust that and that? So, and Karim is following all my delis, actually, is watching my daily saying, pay attention to that, you are doing this,

and I see, I'm seeing that on the, on the lenses, maybe you should. And yeah, so we are working this way, and this is very collaborative. And I think if you talk to every big cinematographer that we like, everybody is backed with a very solid colorist, you know, you know, I, So this is something that I'm a big listener of the podcast, Tim Dickens. You know, and every time, I mean, you can feel that you are not alone, you know, you can't be alone to do those things. Yeah, actually that podcast inspired this one during the pandemic. And I actually, this is in it, but I got, not only did I get the photo book, but I got both James and. And, uh, wow.

I just signed it. Okay. They came to, uh, Santa Monica to do a book signing. And I gave them a sticker from this podcast. And I was like, you guys inspired this podcast. And James was like, oh, cool. And Roger went, uh-huh. It's very quiet, man.

Yeah. And then that's funny because, uh, actually Karim, my coloristee offered me that book. So it's a great little photo book. We, yeah, we have a, we have a, we have a, we have a very good relationship. Um, yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah, we, we, we, that's, that's like, I mean, the relationship with the colorist can be an ego thing, you know, when you have an ego talking more than another one, that's not a good thing. I mean, you should probably change your colorist or talk to him or her, you know, I mean, um, because this is really important to have someone really good visually and technically also. Yeah, I've done, uh, because of the pandemic, I switched from, not switched, but, uh, uh, during the pandemic, I was a colorist because I had been coloring my own stuff for years. I'm not, I wouldn't say that I'm like a super professional or anything, but I've done a couple features and like small, small, any couple documentaries.

And obviously I learned a lot, but definitely made me a better DP because I realized like what I can fix and what I can't. Yeah. And like what to ask of post and what like, you know, so same thing with editing. I think editing makes you a better DP as well when you know like, oh, we don't need that shot. Oh, temporally, this will work like instead of being the DP that's like, no, I want my cool dolly shot. It's like, we're not going to use it. Just knowing that you're not going to use it.

You're like, all right, it's going to go. I did want to know what the difference was between a color scientist and a colorist because I don't actually know. Actually, Kareem was working at E.clair Laboratory, which is very famous laboratory. in France since probably a hundred years, you know, they were very big in terms of a film processing and Florin, she was a color scientist of, she was an in-house color scientist, so she was in charge of color management and color issues and that you can have with the digital workflow, basically. And she was trying to fix everything and to develop good tools for the laboratory itself to be able to handle many different files and color spaces

and be aware of new technologies, testing, new things. And in every big post-production facility, you have a color scientist. You can find one. So what happened is E. Claire shut down a few years ago, probably, I don't know, five years ago. And then they were freelance. So Karim was freelance for a time then now is working for males and they have their own color scientist and Florine was also a color scientist freelance and then she moved to MPC now

so she's color scientist for the VFX pipeline of MPC you know so you can have color scientists in every branch that you have in post-production facilities but there are I mean every time you know that there is someone in charge because you can also

have very small post-production facility and they don't have this but in every big one you have someone in child and you know that you are going to be back and you have to be in touch with that person if you do something very specific even if you don't actually

this is always good to know that person and to be able to talk with a person and to explain what you are doing what can be fixed and many times she's helping me when I mix cameras you know now Oh sure

so when I'm mixing cameras actually she's doing something very magic that when we are doing the color waiting, we don't have to look for a lot of, to push a lot, to find a good way to mix every camera actually. Yeah. So basically her job is to make the creative technically work.

Yeah. And set the boundaries. Yeah. And also, absolutely. And also, she has a very strong artistic taste also, which is important. Because you can ask her and she can tell, oh, I prefer that.

And I asked to Karim and he told me, most of the time he prefers something else. And I prefer a third thing. So we are like, no, guy, we have to, no, I'm looking better. That's very interesting also because she's those, I mean, Karin and Florin, they are probably seeing more pictures than me in terms of what's being shot. Because Karim, you know, Colour grading is like two weeks, three weeks. So he's doing a lot of movies. And for Floreen, this is the same thing.

She's seeing a lot of pictures coming from the effects side, from many other GPs. So she has, and they have a strong background, and you can have some advice from them. So that's great to have those people working with you. Yeah, totally. With, it's kind of shifting gears a little bit because we're starting to hit the time limit.

But with Miss Davis, I did want to ask, like, what, because it does look different. I was looking at Germinal, and I was like, that looks fucking cool. That's like, I like that. And then Miss Davis, obviously, very different look, but also you weren't dealing. DP. What was your interaction like with the other DPs and how did you guys unify that look?

Actually, I met Joe Anderson at the beginning of September and I moved to Spain very quickly and we instantly clicked together and we talked a lot about the look of the show. He shared with me the moveboard and what he did. I had an access to all the dailies also and some some first edit of the first episode also. So he was explaining me everything that he did about the look. He had a very strong look in terms of lookup table, the

file that he was using. And we it was kind of a technical or two strip, you know, the look itself. And that was very interesting and we were shooting anamorphics with Caldwell Camelion.

So very strong anamorphic look too. And he explained me how, because I had a lot of questions about what T-stop is going to be used outside, for example, or inside, or do you light your night work? Is it going to be blue or is it going to be monochromatic or what did you do about that? And as the main character is traveling in episode 3 and 4, so traveling in other countries. So he told me, so yeah, we did that, but you are also very free to do your own things because they are traveling those countries. That's nice. Yeah, so that was for me very good news because that means that I'm free in a way, you know.

So I have a look accurately, that's funny because when you take a lookup table and you take those lenses and you can take every DP and you shoot a wide shot outside, it's going to be the same look. You know what I mean? Also, why it's not, I mean, I'm joking a little bit. But you know what I mean? When you have the lenses already, the camera are selected, the lookup table done. When you shoot outside, you can control the light for sure. But you have the beginning of something which is common to what has already been done by the previous DP. And he was also shooting, he was also shooting episode 5 in Spain.

So I was able to connect with him to show him picture and he was watching my delis. I was watching. So we had a very good connection. And then what happened is in post-production, he had to move from the look-up table and redo the look-up table in the AC's color space. Because this look-up table was done for REC709. So we had to redo one.

And it changed a little bit to look of it. And when I did the color of Ibiza 3 and 4, actually I was with Tony Damore as a colorist from picture shop. And we, Tony told me, look, this is a look that we set for episode one and two. So this is a new start for us. And we stick to that, actually, you know? Oh, cool.

Yeah, ACEs is a weird operating space. I tried it a few times. It does seem to change your image in a way that, I guess I'm not used to. I shouldn't say it's bad or good, but I'm just not used to it. You know, I'm much more used to working in either linear or log or some abstract, DaVinci-wide gamut now. But I guess especially if you're going to be doing VFX, Aces is super helpful. Yeah, actually Aces, this is just basically a bigger color space. Right.

And so every other color spaces are able to fit into it, and you can make them match in a way in a certain place of the color space. So this is a very good tool when you want to match some cameras. This is a very good tool when you want to have the best post-production possible. but in terms of color, pushing, and managing, and doing a lot of things with color. And this is also a very good space when you are doing some HGR master.

Now, so actually, this is a space that you have to use. So this is why we were in HDR, also because in AIS is because we have to make a HGR master. But again, when you have the good color scientists, you can you can still match your look I mean when we are working with Florin and Karim they are creating the look in Aces first but then Florin is she's exporting some lookup table

for the REC 709 and you can't tell that the Vick has been done in Aces you know because she's like setting some boundaries as you told me and so Aces could be a bit strange to work with but actually if you have the good person again This is very easy to work with, and when you have a nice post-production facility and a colorist and the color scientist or people in charge of color sense, you can work very easily with that color space. The good thing to do is to start to sing that color space in pre-production.

Yeah. Did you have to change your approach to lighting, knowing that you were giving HDR deliverables? Are you just kind of letting that final trim kind of take care of? of it. We, a little bit, a little bit. We talked a little bit about that. We knew that it's going to, that it was happening this way, that it's going to happen this way. So we, yeah, I mean, saw highlights, sometimes just checking your highlights, what is going to be outside. But, but again, if you want to burn thing, because this is burned in the REC 709, you can still burn them in the Aces, you know. So this is, yeah, we were talking a little bit about low,

lights and those kind of situation, but yeah, not that much. Yeah, I think when, from what I remember, like some conversations I had to DPs about when HDR first came out, it was like, because that, because obviously the TV salespeople were like, you can get really bright and everyone went, oh, great. And then everyone went, I don't care. Like anything above whatever 500 mitts is like two, it's blows your eyeballs out. And visually, no one likes that anyway. It feels like most people are kind of shooting for, quote-unquote, SDR.

And then there's just a little bit of extra that you can do some fun stuff with. Yeah, and also, I mean, you have some contrast and some low lights also, because we are talking a lot about highlights, but actually the low lights also are a lot more interesting to work with in the HGR. And also the color space is a bit bigger. So in terms of color that you can put on screen, this is really interesting. HGR is not only about the contrast, this is also about the whole image quality itself. So you don't have to use it on the full, you know, range, actually, of the contrast available.

Yeah, that's the thing, actually. That's why so many people are saying, oh, but this is too much, but I really don't have to use. Only the contrast, you can use the color also and the blacks and everything. So, yeah. You buy a race car. You don't have to do 100 miles an hour. Yeah, yeah, that's the point. Yeah, for sure.

um what was your kind of general obviously you had to kind of well it sounded like you had some freedom but um what was your kind of generalized approach to shooting miss david was it kind of like a more naturalistic show because it is kind of a sci-fi show almost or like a fantasy science fictionish kind of show um so did you lean into that genre did you lean more into the sort of um uh holy grail kind of um indiana jones almost style of of look like Like, how is, how are you lighting that? And what were those approaches? Mostly not true.

We, it's the story about someone who is traveling. That's the story about a quest, you know. A quest in many countries. So we try to, to give the feeling of those countries. I can't tell too much, you know. I don't want to tell too much. But. Yeah.

And we, we also worked. Actually, I was very free to work. with light and contrast ratio and very high contrast ratio. And sometimes it was very natural when we were outside. When we were inside, I did sequences in dungeon. I did very expressionist light, you know, and it was, yeah, I mean, but this is not science fiction with spaceship, you know, I mean, this is not,

this is more grounded. And that's why. That's the beauty of the script. This is science fiction, because when you want to summarize the script, when you want to explain it to someone, this is very clearly a story about science fiction. But this is so grounded and also so funny. And sometimes, probably a bit sad, but also serious, you know, in a way.

You can really think about what's happening and you have an echo in what's happening. now with artificial intelligence so but this is a grounded show yeah and also shooting anamorphic for the 2.39 ratio um you have probably some reference far reference to western at certain point in a way because this is a quest because this is a single person or two person traveling you have many beautiful um uh country sars something like that yeah yeah yeah you've just watching the trailer even i was like oh that looks that that looks like a fun looks like it does look like a fun show that uh there's recently i've noticed for the past two seasons of this this podcast been on for three years past two years there was a lot of and i think

it was just because we're all fucking depressed from covid and shit but um a lot of talk about how like oh you know either everything's superheroes although there's some amazing superhero stuff um uh Greg middleton shot moon night and that's a lot of fun I interviewed him, but it does seem like now, there's like more indies coming out and more like, quote unquote, fun stuff coming out. Yeah. And I'm excited for that because that's what got me into movies, was not so much criteria and collection. It was more men and black and the main thing. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, probably due to COVID, you're right.

Like, it was also the case in France, actually. For one year, two years after, yeah, we had many, many movies and things like that, yeah. Yeah. Well, we're, you know, we've got a little over, so I'll let you go. But I ask everyone the same two questions. And I've been interviewing a lot of TV DPs, so this first one doesn't quite work. But if you were to program, well, anyway, if you were to program a double feature, you know, you go to movie theater, two movies, what would be the other movie or other TV show next to Ms. Davis? Probably, probably a show, I think could be good to do a show, to do a special screening of Damon Lindelof work. Because this guy, he did many, many interesting TV series, you know, he did lost, he did the leftovers. He did watchmen. So probably watchmen or the leftovers, something like that, you know, a special Damon Lindelhoff night. Yeah, that'd be great.

That's a very interesting because those shows, they are big background, you know what I mean, in terms of storytelling. And so for GPs, this is really great work on those shows because you can tell very interesting stories. And when you start talking about them, actually people in the room are getting also interested about the topic around the show itself, you know, and about the philosophy, about God, about religion, about what's, you know, this is really connected. So, yeah, probably something like that. That's a good question, actually. That's the first time someone asked me this kind of question, you know, need to tell you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, after like, again, first two years, I kept asking the same dumb question. I started listening to other podcasts. At first, I didn't want to listen to any other like cinematography or filmmaking podcast.

And then except for the guests that I would interview, you know, just so I wouldn't ask the same question. And then I realized like, oh, they all kind of sound the same. So I had to start to changing things up. for example the final question a lot of people want to ask like oh what's the best piece of advice you got that's not this question what's the worst piece of advice you got the worst that I got

yeah or maybe not maybe not directed to you specifically if that if something doesn't come to mind but just like the worst piece of advice that you've seen given or been given um follow the rules follow the rules

when someone tell you follow the rules but I'm thinking a lot about you know when I started many people told me

you have to have you have to be a camera assistant for very long years to become a DP and I was just in the middle at the time

where very young people were coming and it was the beginning of digital age and a lot of people were like

oh but I can be a DP now like very quickly you know And I was myself still with like the own way of thinking, oh, I have to be a camera assistant for a long time before to being myself with TP, you know. So that's probably something like that.

And every time I'm listening about someone saying, oh, you have to use this way or you have to, we can't use that because this is too, there is too much resolution or this is not good for, I don't know. I mean, every time I heard something like that, I'm like, oh, I want to be, I want to take another pass. So if someone is taking, this is a, I want to take something. I want to take something else. Yeah, that's great.

I mean, the thing that comes to my mind is whenever someone says, oh, no, we can't or, oh, no, this is like a given, I'm always like, well, let's test it. And they're like, no, there's no point. And I'm like, no, the fucking test it. Why not? Yeah. Go to Keslo or whoever's strange. Or they'll just let you sit in there and play with their stuff for a while if someone has an opinion on equipment specifically. But even methods of doing it, you want to know what my hot take is?

then this is going to get me in trouble but I was talking to the guys at film tools so you know you set up a C stand right and you put the light over the tall leg right? Yeah. Yeah. So you're supposed to do. Yeah. But if it's heavy on that leg,

if you bump into that, you know, if it's going to fall over, he goes, just put more C stands on it. But if we think about physics, if you just turn it so the long leg is that way and put one sandbag on it and then two sport ones in front, you can bump that thing all day

and it won't fall over. When the two short ones are in the back, it's now diagonally easy to push over. Put more sandbags on it is like a waste of sandbags. That's my hot take. I'm going to get canceled for it.

That's a good sign of the world. Test it. You know what? Everyone, go test it. Go home. Go grab an heavy light and test it. All right, man. Well, thanks so much for talking to me.

That was a lot of fun. And I'm really excited to see the show when it comes out on Peacock, right? Peacock. Yeah, Peacock, April 20. Awesome. Well, thanks again, man. A lot of fun. Thank you. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production.

It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-AtR Matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truax Branding Company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. As always, thanks for listening.