Frame & Reference Podcast - 94: "Scream VI" DP Brett Jutkiewicz

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

On this weeks episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Brett Jutkiewicz about "Scream VI." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 94 with Brett JetQuitz, DP of Scream 6. Enjoy. Have you been watching anything good recently? Good question. I watched, well, I watched, you know, kind of late to the party, watched everything everywhere at once fairly recently, which... Oh, really?

Yeah, I just hadn't seen it and watched it and really loved it. It's like so much joy in that filmmaking or he can really feel it. I mean, it's no wonder it did so well the awards and everything. But, yeah, I was kind of late to that one, but it was out recently. It was funny. I interviewed the DP for that. And I got in, you know, it was before, it was before it came out. And they're having a special screening at the IMAX in Burbank. So I saw it. And I was like, oh, I'd love to interview the DP. And the PR people were like, right, yeah, sure. So we do the interview. And then we couldn't release the interview for like months. So when it did come out, it was already getting like a ton of attention. And the interview was me and him going like, yeah, well, how people like it. You know. Right. And you. I thought it was cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. People thought it was cool.

People did think it was cool. That does suck. You know, I've interviewed a couple people who are like in the middle of prep or whatever. And it does sound like when you're filming, you don't really, or prepping or whatever, you don't get a ton of time to watch things. Do you find it's necessary to go back and kind of like not do anything and just ingest for a while? because obviously you do it the opposite way you ingest too much you don't make you everything you make is derivative or maybe too nerdy but right yeah I mean you know when I have breaks that you know I try to um I think there's you know it's also just there's something

nice about just really zoning out and not not doing much of anything you know when I'm not when I'm not working but I didn't let you know I definitely try to keep up uh I think the pandemic too is like had shifted things like you know obviously we weren't going to movie theaters during that time, but, you know, I was talking to the director and the movie I'm working on now about how it feels, it feels like harder to sit and watch something, you know, heavy in a way than it did before the pandemic. And, you know, I think now being able to go back to the theater, it's like there's, you know, it's a little bit easier, but I think, you know, if I'm trying to watch something at home, I just, I don't know, it's, it's been, it's definitely

changed the way that I watch movies a bit or how much I watch movies. Like sometimes I just want to kind of just zone out and, and relax. But yeah, you know, and when I'm working, it's like, it's, you know, it's difficult to find any time, you know, I get home from work and I have some food and I go to sleep. Yeah, exactly. Wake up and do it again. So, you know, work a lot on weekends, too. but um but yeah you know i try i try to keep up yeah over the pandemic i went on like a criterion

buying spree i got like every blu-ray i could possibly want and then the same thing i was just kind of in a bummed out mood so i was like i don't know if it's a seven sammer i kind of night what you mean right right right right you know what it is time for the fugitive i ended up watching every 90s action film yeah early 2000s action film diehards are getting one like that watch that you know anytime what kind of movies did you

kind of brought you in the cinematography where you were you know because for me it was definitely those types of movies that wasn't really a film film buff in the traditional sense yeah no I wasn't either I definitely you know I wasn't cinnifiral growing up you know as a teenager

by any means I think you know for me Star Wars made a huge impression me as a kid that was kind of a big it was something that I really loved and you know I didn't really understand that people actually

made movies like there was a whole process behind what getting what was on the screen on the screen and so you know it was it was you know UT it was it was in the Spielberg movies at Jurassic Park you know like those kind of big spectacle kind of films, you know, super imaginative movie making as a kid

that definitely gave me, you know, that excited me and that, you know, made me interested in watching movies in a way. And I think, you know, in high school, I started getting really into still photography, spent like a ton of time in high school, darkroom printing black and white photographs and, you know, skipping clowns to hang out in the dark room. And so that became interesting to me. And at the same time, I was, you know, my family had a little, like, my camcorder,

and I would grab that to make, you know, little movies with my friends or, I don't know, like skate videos, which kind of was into skateboarding. You know, it was like editing them with two VHS decks and, like, you know, pausing one and recording, you know, to the other and you know that kind of thing um and so you know i think that started my interest in cinematography that at the time i didn't i didn't know it i didn't know what i was doing really

was something that people actually did as a career um and so i went to college i actually started as a computer science measure because i thought that would be a good way to have a job and you know make a career and whatever you know adults are supposed to do um And my first year there, I started becoming friends with some film students and kind of realized, oh, this is, you know, these things that I'm interested in when I like doing maybe actually could be a career. So I took a film studies class just to kind of check it out and see what it was about and totally shot a loved and switched and started studying film. And, you know, in that class, it was like, it was a film history, you know, from the beginning, from, you know, early, you know, Lumier Brothers and, you know, to the French New Wave and Dion. So, yeah, some of those French New Wave films I remember watching, you just, you know, really open my eyes to what film could be.

I think the other film that did that for me, which I did watch as a teenager, was kids. Oh, jeez. You know, when I saw that film. Yeah, I saw that as a, you know, whatever, 16-year-old and realized, oh, movies can be this, you know, like after growing up on, you know, Stilberg tones, like seeing something that felt so kind of specific and small. And also, you know, I grew up an hour outside of New York City and, you know, the kids were teenagers and was like, oh, like, people, you know, I wasn't doing the things they were doing in that, in that. film but you know I identified with their experience and realized like he you could actually make a movie like that and that was kind of eye opening for me at the time yeah no that really definitely uh my friend my friend Chris Slack was definitely the smartest one out of our group and

he's he saw that and showed that to us and he goes hey I found this Phil gummo we should all watch that and I was like buddy after the last one I'm going to let you watch that and I was right yeah I feel like French New Wave is almost the skateboard films of the film industry. Very rock. Yeah, it feels like, I mean, you know, you definitely see that kind of freedom and energy and kind of just like, we're just going to do our thing. And hopefully people think it's interesting. And, you know, if not, you know, whatever.

And we think it's cool. And, you know, we think the way that. We want to make this movie, you know, let us do what we want. And at the time certainly was, you know, a big deal to make movies in that way. It kind of wasn't really done as much before then. Do you remember, because I don't know if it made sense, but I also came up in the same kind of like skateboard kind of world. Do you remember any of the skate films that stood out to you?

Because I can think of too that everyone tends to mention, but. Yeah, you know, it was. It was a little bit, probably a little bit later, but, you know, yeah, right? Yes, like Jones's. That was, that was, I was in my, probably in my, almost in my 20s when that came out. I'm not sure, so it was a little bit later. I can't remember others. There were a couple of others, but that one sticks out also just in like the filmmaking of it too.

It was so different, you know, to tie in. in his narrative, kind of elements to escape video, which was, which was very cool. What was the other one that you were looking at? LeCai's fully flared. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But especially with, yeah, right, like, what's, now I'm confused. Was fully flared the one with the explosions in the front, or that was, that was, yeah, right, wasn't it? Explosions was, yeah, right.

I mean, business skateboard was, was the RLAM. That great Owen Wilson bit. Yeah, yeah. I feel like, yeah, right, had to have been the first skate film shot on film in earnest. Because I remember a bunch of the skaters being interviewed about that. And they were like, yeah, Spike, because they knew Spike from like Jackass and stuff. And they're like, yeah, he said to just show up to this parking lot. And then there's all these pirate tech picks.

And I guess the guy who got nailed in the back of the head with the two by four, that was the first one. That was the first explosion. And everyone else just went, great, we're going to die today. This is good. Yeah, crazy. I mean, you know, they probably, you know, had a good budget to do that, though, which I think that was also like interesting to seeing, you know, that people were actually putting, now, putting, you know, investing in these videos in a different, in a different way.

And, you know, what else is the TV? Or like some of the, you mentioned Jackass, like some of the CKY videos were, oh, you know, following and got me thinking about that kind of like combination, I wouldn't say narratives, but, but weaving things into like a skateboarding that you, in a way. Yeah, well, in those films I feel like also highlighted like a reality that doesn't tend to, you know, everything everywhere is probably a good example of the counterpoint, but movie making doesn't tend to be you and your friends getting together and making something fun whereas all the stuff we just said is like that was knit to a tea i mean you're like oh the guy who

made being john malcovish can do that well in that case i want to do all of that right right yeah no i think you know i think in the in the best case scenario you know the films and i've been fortunate i feel like a lot of the films that i have done uh and a little bit of that feeling of you know making making little videos with your with your friends and I think it's something that I you know I wouldn't say I try to kind of consciously build that but I think I I hope that you know the experience of making the films that I make does at least touch on that feeling you know maybe it's maybe I'm just like trying to recreate that feeling from my you know from my childhood in a way but you know I think there's definitely on a lot of the films that I that I

that I've done this, you know, sense of friendship, sense of, you know, family that you build, especially with the director or directors. And, you know, hopefully that feels like you're just hanging out with interesting people or then making something cool. And, you know, it's always stressful. It's always intense. But to, you know, have work with people that you enjoy spending time. It's super and super important.

Yeah. You know, you had mentioned the dark room and being able to shoot. I unfortunately, when I got to high school, they had just gotten rid of their, they've gotten rid of a lot of programs, but the photography program was one of them. So I didn't get to experience the dark room until college. And that pissed me off because there was only so many semesters that I could fit a photo class in. Because that really is like, I always recommend that everyone, like, if you can, obviously it's hard to build. one, but like go sneak into, you know, for people local to me, like, go sneak into UCLA or something and just be like, yeah, I'm a student.

And just a lot of times they'll be like, oh, okay, and just let you use their darkroom because it's really, uh, the closest thing you can get to meditation without meditating. Yeah, I think you get to, you know, really experience. There's really something magical about it. It's just, you know, kind of a photo appears from nowhere out of the light. And it's like, it's really, it's an interesting. process. And yeah, I really, I really loved it. And when I went to college, I think, I think we were the last class to actually cut film on FlapDed editor physically, twice the film. We were working in 16 millimeter in school. So I'm happy that I got that experience before they took down away. But yeah, all of my, all my cinematography in school was on film, was, um 16 millimeter and in college so i'm really you know happy that i got to learn that way um

and then and then move into digital as i can became more popular yeah yeah i uh i definitely so i got one summer basically learning on 16 at new york film academy and i still can't get away from like using a light meter or like thinking that way or yeah it's it's it's it's it's It's something that has become, are you the same guy still metering, still, like, thinking about it as film, even though you are shooting a different medium? Yeah, I definitely still use my meter. I mean, it's, I don't know, I think part of it is when the transition from film to digital started happening, you really couldn't trust the monitors. And I feel like I've never let go of that, even though now and now, really, especially if I have a DIT who's kind of job. this kind of job it is to make sure that the monitor looks like the movie is going to look

and is calibrated and all of that. There's still something that I think just from that time where, you know, the early digital time where it's like you're looking at a monitor, but like, is that really what it's going to look like? You know, you can't, you don't really know. And so I think that I've kind of held over a little bit of that just like using my meter just, you know, as a fail safe. And I also find that, you know, if I'm running around the set, you know, lighting things,

sometimes it's just easier for a little kind of rough in the scene using my light meter while, you know, the crew's moving the camera, the operators with the dollar group getting the shot set up. Like I don't necessarily have to run back and forth to a monitor or or always have a camera that's set up to look at the lighting, you know. It just makes it a little to process a little bit quicker. or if I can, you know, kind of rough things in with my life here and then go with the monitor. You're like, okay, well, you need to tweak this, this, and this. But we have it in kind of in the bulb arc. So I use it that way as well.

I also find that it allows you to still be the magician, you know, because now that when you set up the camera and everyone can see the monitor, now the magic's gone. But if you're just doing this all around the set and then you come back and they turn on the camera and it looks right, you're like, ah, look, you should still make me. Yeah, exactly. No, I think, you know, having a very well-calibrated monitor that everybody can see certainly, you know, kind of take some of the magic out of what we do at cinematographers. You know, if people feel like they, you know, I think it's good, you know, in a way, certainly for the directors that they can, they can see the monitor really get extensive.

That's how it looks. But there is, you know, a little bit left to trust the cinematographer in a way because they can see it. They mean, whether it's the directors or producers or whoever is watching can have an opinion on what it looks like because what they're looking at is, you know, the final image, you know, as close to final as we can get. well and you've also got whoever those people may be maybe not the director but anyone else who can watch the monitor always goes like oh this needs to be this way and you're like just stop just please your sense of taste is not what's needed here yeah it happens sometimes yeah mostly on for me like commercials yeah trust me we can see the thing right right right yeah for sure. But, you know, it's give and take. You know, I think I like, I do like for myself

being able to feel like when I'm looking at on the monitor is accurate to what I'll be getting down the line, especially, you know, I'm not always available to go and do the final color grade or you know to be there in person often whether it's just kind of watching cuts of the grade and getting notes or doing some sort of remote session if I if I can but I think now and I don't know

and occasionally not as involved in the color process so really being able to you know know that what I'm shooting on set is going to go to editorial and look close to how I want it to look when it's finished. I mean, obviously, when you get into the grade,

there's all sorts of little detail work and matching and all of that. But I really do, you know, I really do try to get it as close as I can to how I want it to be in case I'm not able to be there in post to really make sure it looks like what I think it should. Yeah, that was actually something I'd like to talk about what I saw. You had mentioned in a different interview, and that was like, Do you have consistency with your colorists, or is it a different one every time? There's one colors that I've used quite a bit as a name is Matt Jenks.

He's based in New York. It's done at least six, I want to say six films for me. But it depends. You know, often the production has a post house, you know, that they want to work with or the films being colored in LA or Toronto, you know, depending on where things are set up, which are, you know, decisions that are usually made before I come on. Sometimes I'll have to work with somebody new, and I've had good experience of doing that as well. So it varies, it varies from film to film on screen six.

The latest one I worked with a colorist in LA, a company three, Mitch Paulson, who I, I'm going with before, but it was fantastic. And so, you know, it just depends on the project. I don't want to jinx it, but at some point in the future, I get to interview Jill Bogdanovich. And so I'm going to have a shit ton of questions. Because pretty much everything she touches turns to gold. Yeah, for sure.

but the other thing I had seen in whatever interview that was was that you're a one show lot person because some people are different some people like I want a different lot for every scene or I'm going to let the DIT you know endlessly poke while we're filming and do you do you kind of keep that consistency with every film or was that specific to probably screen or black phone whichever you were talking about at the time yeah no that's something that I've that's always kind of how I've done it. Part of that stock idea. Yeah, it's probably going back to that film stock idea.

Like, you know, picking the stock and that's the stock. I mean, obviously, there's, you know, you might shoot a film on a couple of different film stocks. But for me, I like the simplicity of that. You know, I like to just have something that gives me kind of the general live that I'm going for. And then, you know, if I need to change the look, seem to seem, it's more about lighting and, you know, color of the lights or, you know, how the contrast that I'm building in and the lighting or not or taking away. And, yeah, I think just for me, like, everything is so complicated in terms of making a movie, shooting a movie, that if I can know that that, you know, that is simple and straightforward in terms of, That's the showlet. I think that allows me one less thing to have to have to worry about.

But yeah, I do think it's related to just, you know, this is our film stock. This is, you know, this is the look in a broad sense. And then, you know, denoting that scene to scene is more just about what we do with the lighting. Yeah. And how do you go about generally building your showlet? Like what are the considerations that you're taking when you're sitting with your colors and going, Oh, I want this to be that or, you know, whatever. That's a terrible question.

I want this to be that. Anyway. Yeah. That's what I say. Yeah. No, kind of is. You know, it starts kind of, usually I'll have my colorist run me through some luts that they already have. I mean, when I work with Nat in New York, who did the black phone,

Um, he, sorry, he has a bunch of, you know, it's okay, he has a, uh, um, like a library of, of let's that he's used or that he's developed and, and, um, so we kind of look through those. A lot of them, I often use, start with film emulation lets, lets, let's that were kind of built based on different film stocks. I just found, you know, over the years that those tend to feel good to me, you know, for lack of a clearer explanation of it, there's just something in those film emulation lots that I'm drawn to. And so it usually starts with that

and then gets into more kind of detail work. I don't. You know, I tried to keep it neutral in a way, meaning not, you know, split toning colors or, you know, really manipulating certain colors because also, you know, the footage that I usually have going into creating a lot is just a little bit of test footage

that I've managed to do in prep, and it does not represent every situation that we're going to be shooting in. So, you know, it's really, if you get into those kind of micro adjustments in the let building phase, you're really only basing it on a very limited scope and limited scope of environment that you'll be that you shot your tests in so so I try not to get too into the weeds on manipulating you know they're doing things more about you know overall contrast and you know when color in the blacks and you know shifting things on on a on a broader scale but that's kind of how it starts for me Gotcha.

And I had also seen that you built yourself, at least on, I believe, Blackphone, like a few sort of more technical versions of that show lot where like it would force you to light brighter because the Lut was darker. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So I do often have a couple of versions of the same Lut that are just buried in exposure like you have the base Lut and have one that's pulled down a third of a stuff. and half a half a stop.

It's just, for me, sometimes if the scene is meant to be very dark, you know, I'll put on, rather than, you know, stopping down on the camera and under-exposing it more, I'll just put on the, you know, the pulled-down lot, half a stop or, you know, whatever it is. So I'm, you know, so everybody's seeing on the monitors and it's dark and moody and that's what, you know, that's what we're going for. But just to give myself a little bit of breathing room in post, you know, I think now there's a, on the digital cameras, there's a less difference, especially when you're shooting raw in changing the ISO, which is another way to do it to just, you know, if you're shooting at 800 and you want it half a stop darker just to rain it at 640 or whatever, whatever it is. But I think, you know, my kind of a lot pulling down is more of a holdover to when when changing the ISO and the camera changed the look quite a bit.

It's not as much the case now shooting raw, but it's just, you know, I think it's, I don't know, maybe there's just, I like just, you know, keeping the ISO the same and just having the DIT, you know, switch the Lut. Well, it also. The way I've worked. It also gives you the added benefit of generally just cleaner shadows, you know. Yeah, because if you've got to light everything, a half-stop writer, you know, the, it won't be under espouse. Yeah, no, that's true. Yeah, and you wind up, you know, getting in the grade, and if you want to pull something out of the shadows somewhere, you have a little bit more information there, which is helpful in a lot of instances. Yeah.

On this news screen, six, I saw that you had a lot of exteriors. And I was wondering if you had any sort of, I suppose, tips on shooting night exteriors, especially in the city, but also maybe ways that someone on a smaller budget could replicate something similar in how having said larger budget helped you either work faster or perhaps enhance the look. yeah well i mean i spent the you know the early part of my career shooting well-budget indies in new york and a lot of which were you know out on the streets at night was very little in the way of lighting you know certainly no lifts or big lights or anything like that um you know i think the first part of it is location scouting is you know if you know you're on a tight budget and you're shooting you know obviously it's easier if you're shooting in a

in some place rural at night, it's kind of a whole different thing. But, you know, finding places scouting at night and finding places where there are existing lights that feel, you know, right for the scene can help eliminate what you're going for. That's really, you know, where that starts. And even on a film like Scream where we did have a bigger budget, it was still doing that. You know, still looking at, you know, places where that had some sort of existing light. I mean, I think the night exterior on the college college campus, towards the beginning of the film,

right after the frat party, they leave and they're walking down this big, you know, campus walkway. You know, all of those lampposts that were in the, you know, in the machine were at, were there. And it was part of the reason why I like the idea in staging the action there because we'd handle all this light. And we did wind up diffusing, putting some diffute, rapping, diffusion around all of these lights just to soften them a bit um and so you know i think we did that all the way down and then you know we had a couple of bigger lights around but not you know not not much really just a little bit to to help key them and what's great about the LED lights now is you can you can you know look at what's there and you know if you have a color meter you can

measure it and and i love valor meter holy she had changed my life Yeah, they're crazy, expensive, but they're really, you know, they're really helpful. You know, I have one, like Gaffer and Eames on our green, he had one. And so we just, you know, we would measure the existing lights and find out what color they were and, you know, decide whether we wanted to match our lights to that or do something different. But just super helpful in, you know, knowing that, you know, knowing how much green is in the green or magenta is in the light that you're dealing with on location

so you can pull that out in the camera if you want or, you know, match your LED lights to that. But yeah, you know, it's even on a bigger film like screen, definitely still very conscious of picking a location that has some existing lights to work with, even if they're just in the deep background, new things that my crew and my team doesn't have to worry about lighting yeah especially with the uh on the color meter thing now that i have the ability to get x y coordinates from any source

i like refuse to use lights that don't have that capability it up using like or i have to match everything to the one tube that doesn't or whatever but right the xy coordinates make everything like i do a lot of corporate work and shit and so like setting up interviews you know just have and someone next to a window and then just mimicking, you know, wrapping. Just like, what's the window? Yeah, got it. Boop, boop. Now looks good.

All right, move on. You know. No, no, it's great. It's really, it's great for that. You know, those like interior day interiors where you can, if you're using the natural light, just being able to see how it's reading. So, you know, I feel like so often that those kind of things. But, you know, like, you've done a bunch of interviews in the past as well.

And it's like just like can never quite get. a key light to match what's coming to the window and it's so useful to be able to just measure into that. Yeah. I had seen that you spent a lot of time prepping the subway scene on screen six and just like trying to figure out how to light ghost-based space. But was there anything else that kind of took a lot of your attention in prep stuff that you really had to focus on or maybe anything that you thought you had nailed and that you had. And you got on said, you're like, wow, little extra print time on that would have helped.

Everything could have used extra background, always. It's a good question. You know, the shrine, the theater set was definitely a big focus. And perhaps there was just so much going on. You know, still many pages took place in that set. And, you know, working out the blocking and where the characters would be. and all of that. And then the lighting for that also was he was a big,

a big challenge to, you know, design and figure out. And Michelle, our production designer, did a great job with her team, you know, doing some renderings of what they, you know, imagine the space would look like once all of the art,

art was in and the props and the vet dressing and all of that. That was really helpful as a starting place. But yeah, we talked to, you know, also the projection in that space was something that we talked a lot about and using that as a lighting effect as well and another element because it was really important for me to find a way because we were spending so much time in that space to at some point give it a different look. So it wasn't the same, you know, the whole time and the projection really gave us that, give us that opportunity to kind of change. things. You know, we did, we had, we rigged lights above the projections green that flickered to mimic the light coming from the screen. So, you know, we had that light as a source. You know, all the lights above the ghost face robes on stage, you know, were spotlit with lecos from above and, you know, position in that, I'm going to be color right and all that. And all that.

But, yeah, it was just a, you know, a lot of, a lot of prep went into creating that base and just making sure that, you know, really, we were lighting the environment. We had a bullet light in the main space to help the ambience in there. I think we wound up turning that off when we switched to the projection look, but wanted to be able to move freely in that space as well and not have to, you know, really let characters move and let go space move so that was a big part of those discussions

so that was a yeah that was something that took a lot of a lot of work and prep and a lot of figuring out yeah yeah it feels like 360 or at least 270 lighting seems to be the default now with almost everyone that I've interviewed

yeah I think it you know it's nice to be able to to light a space and then And then, you know, just bring little things in here and there for closer work and, you know, when possible. It's always a trade-offs because, you know, especially in movies like Scream, we want to keep it moody and dark and not, you know, kind of flatten everything out in the lighting. So it's a little bit of a dance. But generally, you know, try to light spaces and especially with the LEDs now, being able to. to adjust or turn things off quickly. I think it really helps if there's something.

The iPad is a godsend. Yeah, the iPad is great and we had a really great board operator on this as well, which was, which was helpful. But yeah, just being able to, you know, get everything in there and just turn things off as needed or bring smaller units in for closer work is how I try to start, at least, if I can as much as I can. Were you hesitant to jump to LEDs? Because I know a lot of the older GPs I've talked to have said that they like still

wish that they could just be all tungsten all the time. But obviously that slows you down and you don't have as much flexibility. But especially the earlier LEDs, but even like sky panels, loki, aren't that accurate. Well, accurate, yes. The spectral output. See, this is why they shouldn't have given me a color reader. spectral output not as good as for instance the keynote LEDs or certain other ones

yeah I mean I think there's there's nothing really like what a tungsten light on skin looks like it's just so it's so beautiful and then certain lady the earlier days of LED were tough and they were a lot of them were gross and

that had limited control and we're kind of frustrating to use. I think now they've, you know, I wouldn't say that they've been able to replicate, you know, the feel of a tungsten light. But for me, it's gotten close enough that the, you know, the trade-off of the flexibility of the LED light and the heat of change in color

is worth it for me, you know, to that, to have a light that's, not quite as pretty on skin as the tungsten light is but is close enough for me to make that trade-off for worth it and it's quite a trade-off

I mean the difference between being able to dim and change the color on the board of an LED light where she's scrimming or dimming and the color changes on the tungsten light if you're dimming it and you know I don't know jelling it It's a huge, it's a huge advantage to be able to do all that stuff on the fly with the LED with the LED lights. Yeah. Do you think the difference, this is kind of just a nerd question, but do you think the difference,

like if we were to be able to make an LED that had a similar enough spectral output, do you think the difference is just the power that you could get out of like a small tungsten unit that was kind of able to penetrate the skin of your actor? Because like LED tends to just kind of sit, it feels like face pain comos yeah I mean I think the LEDs are definitely better in

the tubes and the sky panels in terms of the kind of softer light I think what they're really lacking now for me is like a good LED for Nell

and I think to you know the the RE L7s are they're okay but they're big and heavy and they have morbid it No, I'm talking about the L5GEL7.

Okay, okay. The Fresnel, right, LC7? Something like that, yeah. Yeah. They're okay. They're not as punchy as it as a tungsten for now. The orbiter I'd used a little bit and like it, but it's big. You know, it's heavy and takes up a lot of space.

So for me, it's, you know, it's the, Vernels and lecos too, I haven't found. I think there's a leco attachment for the orbiter potentially, but I haven't used it, but I'm curious about it, but again, it's just, it's so big. And, you know, lecoes I love to use to bounce, you know, just create a slash of light bouncing somewhere off a card, off the wall, off the floor, just, I love if there was an LED leco that, that, that, you know, just create a slash of light bouncing somewhere off the car, off the wall, off the floor. I love if there was an LED leco that the color was good and the form factor was the same as a as a tungsten leco but I haven't I haven't found it yet so I think yeah I mean generally the you know the LED does better with the with the softer light yeah we should hit up like hive because I actually I think I was able to play with the orbiter leco attachment but you're right the orbiter is the size of a small bus and then the leco attachment looks like a subway sandwich and you just get this ridiculous setup yeah no i've used the high a high of 575 which i think they're brightest one it's pretty it's pretty cool um but i think the leco attachment just eats so much so much light but i have used that the 575 with like a soft

box on it and i like that you know that kind of single single point source is nice for something for some things. I've made here in LA and everyone. You had mentioned your production designer and something I love talking about on this podcast is just the interplay between the DP and the production designer because I've said a million times,

a lot of times DP gets credit for what the production designer did. A classic example I've used a thousand times every time David Fincher makes a movie. They're like, oh, I love the color grid. I'm like, that is a green wall. that's not right that wasn't done in the grade that wasn't done in cameras so talk to me about your how you worked with your production designer on screen and kind of your guys's working relationship

yeah michelle was great i mean i think early on we had you know i had put together um some reference imagery and she had some of course and we kind of shared uh you know what we had and talked about kind of the broad strokes um and then we both got super busy doing doing our own thing. You know, we would check in all the time and she would come to me with an idea or I would come to her with an idea and was already kind of collaborative and fluid like that.

But, you know, it wasn't something that we were, I mean, I think luckily her eye was so great and her team was great and we were really on the same age that there wasn't much that she presented to me as an idea that felt, you know, off base or felt like didn't work for what I was going for. So it was great working with her, but I find in general,

you know, I different, I didn't really hear, you know, whether it's in other articles or other cinematographers talking about, you know, a really kind of involved collaboration with the production designer. And to me, it's, you know, I think on screen was lucky that we were kind of on the same page from the beginning. and you know we checked in here and there throughout prep but it really wasn't something that we were sitting you know and really developing ideas together or anything like that but you know it was it's definitely an important collaboration where we were always checking in with each other on things but you know and prep is so crazy and it's like the time just goes you know I spent so much time

shot listing and scouting and working with the directors that it was, you know, my relationship with Michelle was more just, you know, checking in on things as we were going. How much time did you add on prep for this film? I think that's five weeks. That's not too bad. I mean, sure, it's fast as hell, but... Yeah, it's about the usual for the films that I do and to scale a bit. yeah how much compared to something like black phone how much time did you have on black phone

i think i had five weeks on black phone oh okay cool were you it was because that's a more constrained film did you did that five weeks go further because you had like less scouting obviously it's mostly in a basement or um whatever or did it kind of feel exactly the same an interesting question i think it always feels like not enough time uh it feels like it feels like it's weird because it feels like not enough time but but by the end of it i just want to get on set and start shooting because you can talk about these things ad nauseum you know forever and on a certain point it's like you know we we have our plan in place you know we're just gonna we're gonna do it And if it's not exactly what we thought it was, we're going to figure it out.

And so it's kind of a mixture of both. It's like I always want more time, but then I, at the same time at a certain point, it's like, cool, it's just get on set and, you know, we'll start making this movie and then adjusting as we go and figuring things out as we see them in the camera. But I think, you know, similar in terms of how Prip felt. between the two movies was, you know, it was fairly similar. I didn't feel like I had much more time on the black phone than on the screen. Yeah.

What are some kind of considerations that happen on a bigger film in CREPS than maybe on an indie or a smaller film? Things that kind of maybe jump out to you. Yeah, well, I mean, I think certainly if you're lighting a big sense, on the stage, that's something very, you know, very different that I'm doing an indie film in your own location. You know, on the bigger films, you generally have a reading crew, which is a whole different, you know, set of people who are going to put things in advance, you know, put lights where you want them, whether it's building that on stage or doing that

on a location before you get there. So I think the difference, the main difference that I've found, you know, the bigger films is in the lighting and in having to really imagine what it's going to look like and position your light without seeing them, you know, working in advance. I don't know if that makes sense. Kind of a weird way to say it. But on a smaller film, you have your lighting package, you show up to the location on the day you're going to shoot and you figure out where you want to put the lights and you shoot the scene.

And on a bigger film, you have to figure out where you want to put your lights before you're standing in a room with the camera and the director. And there's room to adjust and on the bigger sets, like the subway set, we'll have a day to go in. a pre-light day to go in and look at it. But, you know, even Matt, there's what's intimidating about that or as done is some of these rigs are so big that if you go in there on the day, your pre-light day and you're like, uh-oh, like this really doesn't look like how I thought it was going to look. There's like almost no going back. So I think that's, for me, like the biggest difference is, you know, having

to having to light, you know, commit to where the lights are going to be in advance and on a lot of occasions knowing that, you know, you're not going to be able to make big changes to that once you're there with the camera. You just won't have, you won't have time. So that's kind of a big difference for me. Yeah, it's going to be the, uh, that's where experience definitely comes in. You can't teach pre-visualization of lights. to that degree, like knowing what it's going to look like. You could explain what it's going to look like, but you won't know unless you've done it. Yeah, I read, I was listening to or read something about Roger Deacons that he had to, you know, go in and argue with a line producer to get a prelight day on one of his sets.

And, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but the line producer said something like, you know, you know, well, it's your job to know what it's going to look like, you know, why do you need a pre-light day? Because, you know, that's your job to know if you put the lights there, it's going to look like you've always looked. And, you know, that made me feel a little bit like, okay, well, Roger needs a pre-light day. Like, I think it's okay that I, you know, that I also feel like I need a pre-light day on these bigger sets. But yeah, certainly experience. And I think if you're kind of making that transition from, you know, the smaller independent films into a bigger film, you know, if you, you know, if the budget allows, like, put more lights in there than you need because you can always turn them off, but you can't, you know, bring in the scissor lift to hang them, you know, and wire them and kidding and, you know, all of that on the day. so it's better, you know, better to overdo it and turn things off than to underdo it, for sure.

Yeah. I also imagine that line producer like, what, you would rather almost have a reshoot day when we get there and it's all fucked up because we didn't have the pre-light? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I know. It's a weird argument. Yeah. Money people think about money.

Which is fine, that's their job. I did want to touch on, because you shot two episodes of the most recent Stranger Things, which was a sick series. I enjoyed it a lot. And your shot of Max going up into the sky, probably the most used promo shot in the entire series. It was very cool. kudos to you. But I was

wondering, I got to interview Tim Ives way years ago. His podcast been going for three years now. So I guess way is the wrong word. But anyway, but I wanted to know he shot most of his season. It sounded like you worked with a lot of

different within a lot of different teams. And I was kind of wondering what that experience was like for you jumping into a kind of a moving train. Especially on such a anticipated series like that. Yeah, I mean, it was intimidating.

So, you know, I came in about halfway through the season to replace Lockwood Miller to leave for scheduling reasons. And I didn't think of how much pre-had me maybe like five weeks of prep to get oriented, but they were in full swing. You know, they had some COVID delays. So the schedule was really complicated. to spit everything in the time that we had. But I will say that the team there was amazing.

And, you know, really felt like a family making, you know, making that show. And everybody was, you know, everybody felt so kind of invested creatively. And I think the Duff Brothers really set that tone for the season and for the series. But it was, yeah, we had some really complex, like, logistic. complex that said and it was it was an intimidating you know place to to to walk into and can be you know the new the new guy coming in with the crew that's you know all been working together for for all this time um but um i'm sorry no don't worry trust me i got two that i'm waiting to go all it's funny out here

Yeah, so it was, but it was, you know, overall it was a great, it was a great experience in working with Sean Levy, who directed episode of four, which is the max in the cemetery. He was fantastic. And I think, you know, at the time, you know, nobody knew that that episode would become what it became. but there was something definitely special about what was going on there at the kids and and see these performance and you know

so there was it it felt special but you know couldn't have couldn't have known that you know that episode was going to be you know such a cultural touchstone but I'm happy that it was and I you know I loved Kate Bush already so I'm glad that people

was about to say people you know got introduced to her music and so restarted her career that song is still on the radio out here every yeah at least once a day if we get a quick little running up that hill um yeah so were they handing you like a look book or were you seeing other dps shots or were they showing you daly's or anything or were you kind of given a little more car blanche yeah i had access to all the dailies that have been like to watch so i was able to look at what they had already shot which was which was important because we were

not shooting in an order at all. And so a big challenge for the show was, you know, knowing how things were going to fit together and knowing where what I was shooting was going to, you know, match with something that has already been shot or, you know, what it's cutting into or what it's coming from. So that was helpful. And, you know, I went back and I rewatched, I rewatch the first three seasons. But, you know, what was great about it was that, you know, I think,

that show has such a had such a style and has an visual visuals of that show kind of like baked into the DNA which is really something that came from the duffer brothers from from the beginning um but you so i think i went into into photographing it you know knowing the style of the show based on what it come before but i i really never there was really never a situation where i you know suggested something or i framed something up and somebody was like oh that's not really how we that's not how we do it on stranger things and that's not really like the style of the show that never happened at all so it was it was nice to feel like you know i knew what the sandbox was in general but um but i was able to put my own kind of creative suggestions into it and shoot things the way

that i felt like i wanted to i never never found myself feeling like i was doing something that maybe you know didn't feel right to me because that was the way that with the show did it. So I think, you know, I think, again, speaks to the Duffer brothers and and Sean, you know, in their direction and their kind of openness to embrace a creative collaboration. Yeah. Were there ever times where you were able to like lean on your gaffers or anyone and be like, hey, what were you guys doing on this last episode? Yeah, for sure. I mean, a lot of the sets that I was working, that I was working, and I was working and had already been lit and used before.

So there was a lot of, you know, collaboration with the gaffer to, to, you know, know, know how they had been doing it already. And some of that I knew from watching the dailies, but, you know, it's not, it's, you know, it was very helpful to have the gaffer that was, you know, had already been working on these sets and knew how man been laying, you know,

previous to me coming on. But a lot of my work, you know, was in Albuquerque, which was, you know, all of the desert California, Nevada stuff that's in the season. And that was something that was, you know, I was a DP for all of that work. And that was a whole different kind of unit of work. So that really was starting from scratch and being able to define the look of that area, that location in the show. sure that actually you know you're ready i was going to ask about the got to let you go here in a second but uh speaking of matching uh i had seen in another interview done talking about doing um in the

new screen uh there's like a scene where someone's on a ladder going from building building you said you shot half that practically on set and then the other half on a stage and i was wondering if uh you could share any tips on how to um prepare for shooting, you know, two things separate like that and how to get them to match well without having to lean too hard into the D.I. or in the edit? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, first of all, it's shot listing and or storyboarding things

just to know what your angles are and you're dividing that to what can be done on stage and on location for us. that sequence. It was, you know, anything wide looking up or anything from above looking down was down on location. And then all of the close-up work was done on the stage. So once kind of we had that, we knew what the division was. And I think we storyboarded that sequence as a well, which was, you know, helpful just to know exactly where we needed to look and what we needed to get.

And in terms of lighting, you know, on the location, I had the Art Department of my install porch on balcony lights. You know, there's a row of balconies in the back of the, back of the building, and there was no light there at all. I mean, that alleyway was a black hole, essentially. And there was not much going on there. So I had them, luckily, we got permission to put those lights in all the way. up. So I knew we needed some motivating source for the light. So for our stage work. So once we

established that, then it allowed me to bring in that key light from that side of the building on stage to match that. And then, yeah, I think the, you know, the matching the lighting, we had control in both places of our lights, though we were able to. We were able to to match the color of temperatures and that something is paying attention to. And in that case, you know, needing to know what, because there were people living in the building,

obviously that we were shooting outside of, you know, making sure people could keep their lights off in their windows or we could put something inside the window and just making sure that we had control over all of the windows that we would see again on stage. So we didn't get into a situation where somebody, you know, left their light on in our wide exterior location shot. And then, you know, we got to stage and whatever.

We didn't have it or vice versa. So little things like that, just, you know, making sure the windows matched. And it was another thing that we talked about as well quite a bit. Yeah. Actually, that makes me think of two things. One, do you just go to the entire building and go, we're filming scream please be gentle like let us work or do you have to be like we're shooting

a black blanket five uh please don't uh tell anyone and uh it's a movie yeah i per i would assume i you know i wasn't in charge of it but i would assume that uh we did not tell them we told them we were filming a movie but i don't think we told them uh what the name of there was yeah yeah i think I mean, in general, that's that's kind of how we operate in throughout the movie. I just imagine that in some ways it'd probably be easier to get people to play ball if you're like, no, no, no, this is the eighth Star Wars. Keep your mouth shut and please let us do what we want. They're like, oh, yeah. Get up.

But in terms of matching, I guess the thing that I'm kind of curious about is there's so many unknowns when you're in nature, you know, like maybe not even a night exterior. maybe that's a little easier, but it's certainly outside, there's environmental lighting, there's, you know, scattering, whatever. Do you find that is something you often have to consider when matching, or is it, or how do you

work with that? Yeah, I mean, I think because it was at night in this case and because there really wasn't much light there to begin with, you know, we're able to control that a little bit more. And we shot the but it's certainly in consideration

We shot the reallocation first, which was, I think, good. And so in case there was any of those variables that we weren't expecting, then we knew what we were, we knew that we could replicate them then later on the stage. So I think doing that, I mean, probably depends on the situation, but doing that in that order is always good because they're, like you said, there are variables on location. you know, you won't know until you get there. And so being able to shoot that side of it first and then match the stagework to that, I think is helpful in general. It was helpful in this case. But yeah, something like a day exterior, maybe even more, even more,

or a day interior depending. But, yeah, with the sun and the clouds and being able to see what you get there and match that when you have the control to do it. I don't know, but he's probably better. Yeah, I'm also imagining like a thin, a thin layer of fog that you didn't realize you were working in that he gets to the stage and it's just like the contrast is way different. You're like, oh, shit. Do we have a hayster? Yeah, yeah.

Well, we got to let you go here soon, but I do ask the same two questions of everyone. And thankfully, you shot a movie. I've interviewed way too many TV people where this question doesn't quite work. But if you were to program a double feature of Scream 6 and another film, what would that other film be? And I'm going to place a restriction on you, which I normally don't do, and that is no other screen film. Screen 6, another film.

I mean, you know, to be self-promoting about it, I would say ready or not because I think it's I think it'd be fun to watch those two films you know both of which I shot but also the same directors and just to see you know that was my first film with them this is my third and you know I think it would be a fun a fun pairing to watch them together that's a great that's a great answer uh second question a lot of people go oh what's the best piece of advice you got I think that's a bad question because it's always, oh, stick to it. What's the worst piece of advice you've ever gotten or seen someone give?

That's an interesting question. I'm sure I've gotten bad advice, but I'd have to think about what it is. This one usually takes a second. Yeah, this is a good question. And, you know, there's like little things like about, you know, always, you know, always, you know, always have the key light, you know, off the, you know, non-camera side, which I feel like as a general thing, it's not really, or it shouldn't be a rule, but, you know, that advice.

And I'm sure, I'm sure I've heard some or had some, but I really can't. You can, I can't think of anything. You can email it to me later, I'll own voice. I'm sure I'll think of something as soon as I'm off the call. no that actually to your point about the whole like far side key thing I was just talking to

oh no no sorry I wasn't talking to anyone I was watching I hate watch YouTube sometimes and so I'll just watch it like that's you idiot you know but there's one person had like a good point which was like all the Instagram photography

or TikTok photography all looks the same because the algorithm is showing ever you know the algorithm decides like oh this one got a lot of engagement so it shows it to everyone else and then everyone replicates that because that's where

they're getting their education as young creators. And so stuff like, you know, the black pro mist, I've definitely rallied against far side key being like the rule, all these rules that are being built that are really just like, yeah, it's a shortcut to a nice looking image, but it's not always relevant. You know, all these lessons come in a vacuum. All this advice, three point lighting is a good vacuum thing. You know, yes, that's the framework, but it's not always correct. You know, it's just the very basic thing, but people do tend to take it as rules, which then makes it bad advice.

Yeah, I mean, I've had some experiences where, you know, and I certainly use a lot of far side key. I think it's a nice way to keep things feeling moody, but still be able to see in a lot of situations. But, you know, I had a couple of experiences where, you know, it wasn't possible or got into coverage and something, you know, changed. and it didn't, you know, didn't make any set. And it's based on, you know, the practicals in the room to be lighting them from the far side. And a few times really just was like pleasantly surprised. And remember I was filming this movie called The Preppy Connection years ago.

And there was this, you know, a scene where they're, and it's like a wild scene in bed. And, you know, my first thought was, okay, well, let's like make it moody. Let's put the key, you know, kind of from behind them and wrapping around, there'll be like a little Bill of Lenny, and we got there and, you know, there's practical lamp on the nearest

time, turned it on, and I looked at it and I was like, oh no, this is better, and this is, you know, it's like, I like, and it's this kind of intimate scene and it's a little bit brighter and it's warm, but it's, it's, it just kind of worked better. So, I mean, there's, you know,

there's definitely something to giving your mind, open when you know about about things like that and not relying on rules or you know and then what might or or even your first instinct in a way you know i think it's it's good to sometimes be like okay this is my first instinct but you know is there something else here you know is there something is there a different way to do it that maybe fits the mood or the story better yeah i mean one thing i've said a million times on this show is like uh oftentimes what is technically correct isn't correct because what feels correct is better and uh especially in the kind of modern

technological age where we have a lot of like calculator answer ooh that's a good i just came up with that calculator is you know where it's like you put it in the computer and it says this is correct um calculators don't feel although you can't feel two plus two equals two equals five let's not get crazy but uh i'll work on that analogy but um but yeah point being it's like a lot of times we don't go with our um what feels emotionally correct you know like even sometimes not matching you know jumping the line or whatever sometimes that actually emotionally feels correct but you know in a film school class you would get in trouble for yeah i think made me think of maybe a little bit

of bad advice probably at some point you know earlier on in my career maybe had a script supervisor and get you know be really insistent about that

the you know the singles the shot and reverse shot were not the exact same size in terms of like framing size like you know I think that the rule

or, you know, for lack of a better word, is that when you shoot one person, you pick your size, and then when you turn around it, you pick the other person, it's then that you match the side, you match the distance from, you know, the camera to the subject.

So when you're cutting back and forth, it's like exactly the same. And I've always found that, I've always found that I never liked it. You know, I've always found it not distracting at all. If once, you know, maybe one side you want to be, it's just a little bit tighter on.

somebody because of what they're saying or what they're going through and and you don't need to be as tight on the other side and and for me that kind of that like precision like oh it's got a you the audience isn't going to know what to think if you know you're you're here on one side and you're here on the other side you know that's something that I feel like I you know disregard in in a way and that that you know people are going to be thrown if your shot reverses in exactly the same size. Well, and not only that, but with the idea of like feeling like your frame size is going to

listen to different emotional response in the audience, you know, if there's a power in balance in that shot reverse shot, you should maybe represent that in the frame sizing and the frame placement, you know, they're not, yeah, conversation is rarely one to one unless it's that serum from heat, you know? Yeah, I mean, I agree. That's just being, you know, based on kind of what feels right for that character in the moment. Yeah. Well, I'm going to let you go, but thank you so much for talking to me.

Congrats on the past fucking four movies you've made. They've all been fantastic. And when you're done with the one you're working on, please come back and we can chat about that. Love to. Thanks so much. Yeah. Later, brother.

Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidiocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.