Frame & Reference Podcast - 95: "Scrambled" DP Julia Swain

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

On this weeks episode Kenny talks with cinematographer Julia Swain about the film "Scrambled." Enjoy! Follow Kenny on Twitter @kwmcmillan and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kayne McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 95 with Julia Swain, DP of the film Scambled by Leah McKendrick. Enjoy. Have you been watching anything good recently? I mean, I watched The Last of Us with everybody else in the world. Listen, I'm not mad about it. Which is a really fun ride. I'm not mad about it.

Like Game of Thrones, I wasn't too, you know, culture. I didn't see it. So I wasn't like in the cultural side guys for Game of Thrones. But for Last of Us, I've been just going up to, did you see it? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I've been very fortunate to be really busy the beginning of this year, too. So every, you know, it's been mainly all commercials, but every said, I'm like, crew, guys, what are you seeing the last? That was so. So it's been fun. I wasn't, I wasn't in it for Game of Thrones either. Like, I wasn't, I was behind, like, way behind. And it had already happened.

So it was fun to keep track of it. Yeah. Plus, it's not eight seasons. It's a lot easier. How did you, did you play the game at all? I didn't, but I, before, right before the show came out, I did download. it and I am too scared to even leave the house. So I did not get every part.

Oh, no, during the show. So I, like, I know what's waiting for me. I'm not going out there. Right. So I, and I just, I'm like, what is it, alien isolated too? It's like, isolation. And I'm like, isolation. I'm like, I can't.

So. The VR version of alien isolation is probably pink VR. Like, all the other VR is fun. Yeah. But alien isolation is like, They nailed. That's the perfect game for VR. What? Yeah.

I didn't under fucking desk and stuff like, oh. Yeah. And like timing when you run across the room and stuff. Yeah. I actually, this is the nerdyest thing in the world. But I saw someone had done a breakdown of the alien AI, like why it finds you. So basically it, it does roam. But if you're away from it for two weeks.

long it'll hop into the vents which is just a dead zone there's nothing up there and then it just basically teleports it closer to you and then drops it out of event and then it goes to find so there really is like no escape from that thing and yeah

and so the game whatever but when you're wearing the fucking goggles you just don't I can't even imagine doing the VR version like I was safely like across from my TV but VR is like a whole other level. I want to try, but the idea is very terrifying. Have you done any VR? No. It's, it's

like depending, apparently the new Woody on PlayStation. Yeah, PS5. The, the, the, the, the, the PSVR two that's coming out is apparently outstanding. Like, original PlayStation VR was okay, but the new one is apparently like leaps and bounds better than most PC options. Yeah. And it's under like 500 bucks which is expensive but but low for i can't even less than that is low for like VR oh wow yeah i'll have to check it out definitely intrigued and um i did a new i did a segment of vhs 85 and we've got some VR elements that are fun that definitely was that was that Alex 99 no he did 99 and 85's coming out oh i don't know when i can actually i don't even if i can talk about it. We might have to not use this.

All right, we'll, uh, it, I don't know. It's been announced, but I, it's, yeah, it's not out yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alex is a lot fun. How do you feel about the, uh, the end of, uh, the last of us having not played the game? Um, morally at war. Like, self. Yep, that's that game. Uh, yeah. No, and it's great because it's so, not about tortoiseps ultimately it's about this relationship too and like what you would do for somebody that you love um

uh yeah torn but relatable probably you know what I mean if you were in that situation I don't know it was it's funny too because I remember them saying like oh yeah we're not going to do because obviously the game there's a ton of shooting whatever they're like we're not going to do a ton of shooting in the game

or in the in the show you know it's not going to be about like It's not a first person, sure. And then, spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen last of us, but like that last episode where Joel just goes off. Yeah. That's, even though it's not that violent, that feels more like John Wick than John Wick has in, like three movies. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, it's really, uh, it's really dark and really set in themes of humanity and, you know, challenging aspects that we don't often talk about. Yeah. Well, and especially the question of

it doesn't necessarily tackle masculinity, but it does come face to face with like, oh, you know, what's an ex-ranger type guy? How do you soften that in the face of, you know, the world collapsing. Yeah, totally. It's literally just

giving him his daughter back. Yes. Yeah. And I had done, I did a movie called The Wrath of Becky recently that was a job by and is it the last episode of the last of us or the episode before? But Ellie has a total

Becky moment of slasher moment, which was really great. That was, I believe that was third. to last. Yeah, yeah. The last episode, because then the one after that, yeah, it's the third to last because he had been stabbed at that point. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was a tough episode. Good gravy. That was a super tough episode, yeah. Have you seen, like, I don't want to be hyperbolic, but have you seen a show that's been that well written recently? Mm-hmm. Because it feels like it came out of,

You know, it's the same experience that we had with everything everywhere. You know, we brought that film up on this podcast, like 106 times. I got to interview Larkin about it before the movie came out. Me and Larkin, I've said this story a bunch, but like we did the podcast and it didn't come out for a while. So me and Larkin were just in there like, oh, yeah, I hope people like it. And then when it came out, it was nominated for like 11 Oscars. Yes, yeah. Conversation sounds kind of dumb because we're like, yeah, well, you know, we did our best.

Yeah. I love that, though. I love that we just don't know. And then you get to follow the film on its journey and hope that it does well. Yeah, I don't know. I like that aspect. Yeah. I had seen in a few interviews that you did that you kind of came up the same way as me where it was like always just wanting to do, you know, you always had a camera or whatever. But also something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast is the prevalence of DVD special features in industry. First of, do you have, do you still have a DVD slash Blu-ray collection? I do. I do. And I was a huge special features person.

And I also think, too, like, it's important to remember that I was just like a very enthusiastic audience member, like, first and foremost, you know? And yeah, my like first job was in a movie theater. And then, like, I worked in news, like, anything I could possibly do to watch and, like, consume stuff and then understand like how it was made was like really important. But I think just like being captured by movies in the first place started the whole thing. Yeah. Do you remember a DVD that kind of showed you? Because some of the special features, today they're all just PR pieces, but there was some that were, you know, kind of interesting. And then there was like

one that I've named before is like the one on Hellboy 2 is longer than the movie you know the Lord of the Rings special editions have I think it's like 12 hours of special features on it that that literally I almost wanted to be the EPK guy more than a regular cinematographer like I just wanted to know you know I wanted to know all yeah yeah yeah no I mean my answer is Lord of the Rings, for sure, because I was young, so young when they came out, but old enough to, like, to appreciate all of that stuff. And I definitely

still have my parents, like, the extended version DVDs, like, that are in the whole... The bookies. The books. Yeah, they had to, like, pull out and then unfolds and get all the discs. I definitely still have those. Yeah, and just, like, the amount of practical effects and doing

things in camera, and that kind of magic is so, you know, was so intriguing to me, and I wanted to do that. I also think, like, I had a great childhood. Like, I was loved by my parents. I was told I could pursue anything I wanted to pursue and all of that. But I think as an audience member, it's fun to, like, escape into those new worlds, you know? And I think escapism is underrated.

Me too. And I think, no matter your situation, it's not because you're running necessarily running away from bumping or can. you know but I think being on set I'm also escaping and that's really fun like I think and that's why like I really do love doing so much genre work is because we're in a set that does not just does not exist you know what I mean and it's so you know the premise is so fantastical it's like that is so much fun to just go to work and be you know in in something that just isn't of this world is so fun and that's why like growing up like alien it's like one of my favorite my cat's name is Jonesy like one of my favorite movies Jurassic Park like

things that just like you would be on set and you it just does not exist and that is so amazing to me yeah alien was big for me too that that was like one of the first films that lit like 360 too so yes totally it is funny how like movies like that endure but that that one's the blue ray on that especially looks so good, looks like it was shooting yesterday. Also, Twilight Zone, if you can get the Blu-Rays for Twilight Zone, they look like, same thing, they rescan the negative, the whole thing. Yeah. You touched on it a second, but I think that would be an interesting thing to talk about

is, I don't believe that you, that there's like a tortured artist thing, but it is, it is funny that, like, as creatives, as filmmakers, is there does seem to be a societal push towards, oh, you're not, you're not real unless you suffer, you know, like you can't, if you come from a happy childhood or if you're a Nepo baby, as they say, then you're, then the art you make is not relevant, you know, it's a strange, it's a strange thing in America where we, where we need to suffer to, you know, we're not, We're not going to use your car detailing service unless you have some sob back story. Like, you know, you can't, your father can't have been a car detailer.

Right. Yeah, that's so interesting. I remember Reed Morano telling a story, too, like, she was in film school for undergrad, I believed. And she was like, how can I be a director if I haven't even lived life? You know what I mean? And haven't, you know, not necessarily like sorrow, but just gone through stuff. And like, I think, and this is just such a complicated and profound discussion, too, of just we all have things and we're so complex that I don't think we can really make the claim of like you have to go through things to be able to really tell your story because we've all gone through so much. And I think you can experience hardship in so many aspects, you know, regardless of your situation growing up, it could be your, you know, friend group.

It could be health. It could be, you know, there's just so many elements and layers that we have to deal with. I will say, like, I think experiencing loss and grief and all of those things have made me a better showmaker in a way. I feel like it does give you perspective. And I think I'm trying not to rant, but just like, I think too. This is the perfect place to rant. Yeah. No, I know.

I think it's given, it's made me even love my job even more, which I didn't think was possible to and really care about every aspect of it and really want to choose things that I can really get invested in and I really care about. Yeah. Yeah. It is, yeah, it's something interesting because like I, if you, let's say, travel the world and meet all kinds of people and really gain lot of life experience. Somehow that is less than if you lost a parent young or went to jail or, you know, whatever. It's like somehow we pinned negative experiences as being more informative than any experience. Yeah, which I don't subscribe to. I'm sure I did as a youth. You know, I think we all have that weird like pain Olympics thing. Like, well, your experience wasn't as bad as my do, too,

through it, but like, um, I think, I suppose I agree with Reed in the sense that like, yeah, you do need to experience stuff, but I don't, I don't necessarily subscribe to the more common idea that it has to be negative. Yeah. And, and I think too, like in film school where, you know, where she was too in her life, it's like you were just, and she had experienced a lot. She's been to a lot. So I think it's just finding your voice too. Like all of these things are going to help form who you are as a storyteller and what you want to say as a storyteller and that should really matter to you and not it doesn't matter what how that forms or what that is it's unique to you so i think it's like nice to be able to no matter how long that process takes really grasp

you know what you want to do and if you don't that's okay too you can you know it's this is a huge collaborative process you're going to be able to tell a lot of different stories and learn more about yourself along the way. Yeah, I lost that thought. Sorry. No, no, now you know, it was me. I had it, and then it went away. I had no coffee today.

I should have had that before you. Now, what was I going to say? Well, I guess, whatever. The importance of coffee when it was free to. In the ADHD brain, caffeine, really. Uh, did you, uh, were you always kind of, um, were you, were you more, uh, oh, that's what it was. It was when did you, when did you know that you were finally, um, able to speak with your voice? Because for me, I'm, I was just thinking about this the other day. I think it was like, I was, I'm 32 now.

I think I was 28, 29 when I finally was like, okay, I trust that I know what I'm doing as a DP. I trust that I can deliver on a promise or a pran. or whatever it may be. When was that for you? Do you remember, like, was there a specific moment? Because for me, I just kind of woke up one day and I was like, oh, you know what? Last time I thought about this, I wasn't here. Now I am.

Like, I soft my way into it. Yeah. I would say, yeah, around the same age, like three or four years ago, maybe. Because now I definitely, well, because I think, too, like your confidence builds. And I definitely remember being a lot more self-deprecating and not confident in what I was able to do and now but I think I think every project I'm like oh actually it's it's now now I know what I'm doing as opposed to like a month ago when I thought I knew what I was doing I think I think it's constant but yeah I know I definitely I'm definitely the most I don't know if I had a moment but I

definitely feel like now I know my worth a lot more and I know that I you know I will fight the fights that I think are worth fighting and have much more confidence in my voice than I ever did and my capability. It's like I can tell you I can speak to budget and crew size and what I'm capable of doing and our day and what it looks like and all those things too with a lot more confidence and knowing that my voice is valid. Yeah. I think it's a relevant. I feel like I probably know the answer here, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Was it you knowing more stuff? Or was it you at doing more jobs? Both?

I think, yeah, just having done more. And, you know, I don't think, I think as a DP2, you don't need to know all the answers, like for all the specific tedious details of what other technicians bring to the table. like I think too my team has grown so we've grown together and we are able to

tackle bigger and bigger projects and I think it's a culmination of knowledge and this is another interesting profound conversation we could have too is like art of film school yeah I remember in film school they were like one professor said it's actually in

your inexperience that creativity is you have more creative when you know less. Yes, I agree. And at the time, I don't know if I agreed because I was like,

well, when you have more tools and you know more of what you can do than your creativity blossoms. So I think, I don't know, I think both can be valid, but now I feel almost more creative and able to take risks knowing more. and I think I was too afraid back then,

which I think many people might have the opposite experience. The jumping off point for that thought was, you know, I hate watch plenty of YouTube. And just every once in a while you get a nugget. Every once in a while someone who isn't, you know, not on my level, that's a horrible thing to say. But like someone who's more in the kind of internet creator space, every once in a while someone comes up with something good.

And that's so I'm just watching the, And the rest of them were like, if you use the black pro mist, I'm like, fuck. But, but, but, yeah, it's, um, that constant need to educate oneself, I think leads to, um, jobs slash creative paralysis. If you're constantly trying to learn, you won't feel confident enough to create. And I, and I agree with your professor where it's, uh, creativity is the is essentially um finding ways to dig yourself out of a hole when you don't have a shovel it's not totally you know it's not like oh i've been given the perfect script and now

i'm going to light it perfectly in ways that are interesting it's usually problem solving yeah yeah yeah no totally you know yeah yeah no totally you yeah yeah yeah yeah no That's it. Yeah, no, I think it's like, but I still think when you, when you learn all those, the quote, quote, rules and all the elements and everything and like how certain camera support moves and works, it also, it does open up your brain to new possibilities also on a bigger scale. and I also think that you know I don't know I just think it I think knowledge can also open up your brain too yeah I mean I think it's definitely I mean if you saw the rest of this opposite it's I have about probably 300 American cinematographers here you know every book under the sun over there like I'm a big knowledge gather but it was that That gap I had to jump to actually not being afraid and working. That was tough in realizing like you'll never learn anything or you'll never learn everything.

But at a certain point you do have the base knowledge. You know, having that trust in yourself is totally. Yeah. I think it's about the knowledge is about trust in yourself, I think. And also when as you as you work on more and bigger stuff, you kind of have to know what's coming and you have to know what will work. You know what I mean? Like even just logistically, camera-wise,

and what you can do in a space. So I think it's like, that also gives Grant's freedom in a way of like, I know this will work in this, in the woods where we need a specific tool or whatever. I had another shot on the, oh, I just went back to UCLA to talk to students there. Cool.

And my buddy who is teaching was like, what do you want to light for them? And I was like, lighting is so accessible, let's not do that. Let's talk about agents, the union, pitching on a movie, like things we never talked about because, A, lighting and camera is you. Like, you are going to figure that out. And are you just, what are you going to do? You're going to go copy how I set up a light outside of a window or something? Like, you know what I mean?

Well, I didn't teach that. oh here's three point lighting great yeah yeah I don't know what to tell you and it's again it's so accessible and you have to do it to like learn what you like and it's that's so different for everyone and it's like let's have the how do you um have a personal life and be a DP that travels all the time like let's talk about that stuff because that stuff we never talked about in film school and that we did light a little bit on the stage but that conversation was so much more fruitful than, okay, I'm going to set up this 50-mill lens. We're going to throw this HMI over here.

We're going to, you know, I mean, I'm going to use Muntlin, you know, whatever. Like, that stuff was way more meaningful to them than me lighting a scene. So what are the students of today? Because this podcast is supposed to be at least at its best 50% educational. Usually it's probably about 20. that what were the students of today kind of concerned about, you know, what, what were the things that they, they don't know? Because when, when, I assume you're about my age, when we were in college, like, getting a 5D was a huge deal. And now, now it's like, every, all the tools are just

available. So what are they stressing about now? Is it, is it 6K or, you know, what, what is it? Um, good question. We, but we didn't talk about too much of the technology. which is interesting, I think... Good. Yeah, I mean, I would say like lenses in camera, but now I think everyone has access to Alexa, then, you know, rental houses are so generous with, you know, letting people try things

and take things out. And, but I think a big thing I noticed was there's a huge awareness of pursuing... the work life. And I don't actually like the word balance because it's not a balance. Like you're going to put time. It's your life. Yeah, it's your life. And I think a big thing was how do you be happy and have a good family life and relationship and all of that stuff while working? Because I remember thinking, everybody would be like, oh, Julia, you're going to travel so much for work. And at that time, I never did that. I was like, yeah, right. And now,

I don't even feel like I live in my house anymore. Like it's, you know, and it's like, how do you do that? How do you, like, maintain that? And I think that was like a huge. I didn't think about that in film school. I was like, yeah, get my DSLR and like, how can I shoot as much as possible and be on set as much as possible and just be consumed in it. That's all I cared about. Were you?

And now it's like, I don't want to work all the time. How do I have a, you know? a healthy personal life and I'm like I respect you guys for caring about this Yeah I like As goofy as you know We'll clown on Gen Z all the time

Or whatever But they do seem far more Aware of Most things than I certainly Yeah Yeah which is great Yeah I think there's a there's a bright

As much as I have made jokes on this podcast But I do I do see a bright future for the rest of us. Unfortunately, they won't be our bosses, so we still won't get paid well. But once they are our bosses, great. Yeah, totally. Unless it's the AI. When you were in college, were you more of a technical kind of, like, was it the sort of tech that brought you into it?

Or was it more the artistry? For me, I think, yeah. I think it started as the tech but then it switched and I remember Mandy Walker came

and did like a DP in residence thing and she was like I she actually Yeah and UCLA she did light

for us but it was great because she put us to work and we got to see her lead her team like she brought her AC her DIT like that was really

valuable to watch her command of crew and I remember her saying like I am an artist and then a technician as a cinematographer because the DIT you know these technicians your gaffer your key grip they're going to know more about their departments than I am and I thought that was really valuable and I think almost kind of gave me permission to lean in to the artistry and not feel the pressure to like stay up to date C300 mark two's coming out what are the specs you know like all that stuff because I thought I think You know, going through film school and stuff that there was a lot of pressure to like, do you know the latest and greatest and all of the codecs and all of this stuff and just it's nice to not feel that pressure anymore.

Yeah, the giving yourself permission to lean into the artistry is a great way of putting something I've been thinking for a minute, which was like at a certain point I felt like I was super saturated on tech and I was like, well, what's next? and I realized, especially like even doing these interviews, like, oh, it's literally just being the theater kid that I was and leaning back into that. Because I, because I escaped that thinking that that wasn't going to take me anywhere. And knowing the tech would, which, you know, if I was going to be a first AC, sure. Sure. But, yeah, it's literally like the thing, the thing that we all fear is like being our high school selves. And it's kind of like, you know, you look at someone like Keata Reeves. you're like, there's a theater kid. That man is almost 60 and he's being his theater kid

self, you know? Yeah. And look at the success. Yeah. But as a DP too, like you're not even going to push the buttons anymore. Right. You know what you're not doing that. You're there to execute what the director needs and and feel things and watch, you know, performance and decide where the camera's going and things like that. It becomes way less about all of the other things, which obviously we still know specs. We set the specs. We, you know, resolution, all that stuff is so important and I'm very much still the nerd I was. But I think it becomes ultimately less about that.

Yeah, the way my directing teacher called it was your job is to make the audience feel the way you want them to feel when you want them to feel it. It's not about setting the light necessarily. Right. talk to me about your mentorship with johnny simmons how did that kind of impact your trajectory and and maybe like you know what what what do you think he'd be if he wasn't uh kind of nudging you along yeah johnny i met at UCLA he taught a class there and he was very much also like artist like light and and and how to shape it and how to feel you know when things feel right

and when they don't and just I think a huge supporter he supports so many amazing cinematographers in every part of their journey and he's such a supportive person in the community I feel like and I think again just gives you permission to to be who you want to be. And, you know, I have his photography in my house. Like, I just love the images he creates. And he's been doing it a long time. And I feel he has such a unique voice. And yeah, I don't know. I think he was just a really big, inspiring force in my life that I think allowed me to, to, you know, be really inspired and not give up. And because, you know, right after, right out of film school, it's very scary. It's very scary. It's,

really, you know, how do you do this? How do you put food on the table as a DP? And so, bar time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think too, like he, I remember sitting with him and he was picking the negatives out of his photos to do his first gallery, you know, and he was like, I think, too, he's inspired me with still images a lot as well. And really, you know, I never tried to be a photographer. A lot of DPs, like, go out and set an assignment for themselves when they travel or what, you know what I mean? And I don't try to do that. I try to let photography in my life happen really organically. And I think that was also inspiring was to kind of revisit my film. I own too many stills cameras, which I know a lot of us do. And just revisit those and do more of that,

which is always fun. I, uh, so I, I loved taking pictures like as, you know, throughout my life. I was a events photographer for Red Bull for a while, which wasn't like creatively fulfilling. But from what I remember, I had a great time. But interestingly enough, it was, I believe the first season of this podcast, I interviewed Tim Ives, and he was working on. Yeah, he was working on Halston, or just finished Halston. So we were talking to him. And then I brought up the question of like photography, and he goes, one second and brings back a stack of photo books like this and just walks me through all of his favorite photo books and I was like cool so I bought about half of them the ones that I could afford they're all on my desk here and literally like Tim Ives

got me back into still photography like and thinking about it as like an artistic art form because the same thing I don't go around giving myself projects or anything like that but now I do I didn't own any stills cameras and now for the most part I had a medium format which the RZ 67 you can't carry around with you. It's, you know, the size of a lunchbox. But now, yeah, I've got plenty of like pocket. I've got one for every occasion. I got a pocket camera. I got a film camera with a pancake. I got this medium for it. Fuji.

But when you see great light, you got to document it. Totally. But I used to do a thing where I'd travel and I'd take the MIA and the M6 and the whatever. And I'm like, I don't like doing this to myself. I also like don't want to lug

lenses around, you know? We like a The Lyca Q2 is like my favorite stills camera right now because it's just fast. I don't need a huge setup. It's just my own BTS photos on set of my setups or, you know, travel. But again, it's not like, I just don't want to do that to myself anymore where I'm like, it's a whole project. And I don't know. I'd rather live in a moment and let it just happen.

Literally, I was going to say, like, having the nicest camera you own takes you. You're constantly like protecting it. And so that takes you out of the moment. And then also just scanning for, you know, instead of being at the party, you're like, how do I get the best photo, which is useless. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And you also, I think you remember things differently if you're always just trying to capture it through your phone or your camera.

Like I, you're not going to remember it the same. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I don't have a Q2 because I'm not cool. But I do have an X100 V, which apparently makes me very cool. The youth. That's cool. The youth love the excellent...

I was on TikTok for five minutes, and apparently I'm an asshole for owning one. Because no one else can get one. Do you have any, like, photo books or anything like that? Anything that was kind of stuck out to you as like, standing out from the other photography. Besides Johnny's, obviously. Not really.

I mean, I do have photo books and stuff, but I think it was like a lot of, the ASC member's work and still brought me back to that stuff you know what I mean and like created that love because I hadn't done Stilis for a long time and

you know I kind of like that their stuff seeing their galleries and their work really like kind of reignited my love for it in a way were you able to do any darkroom stuff when you were in college or anything like that? No And I shouldn't reveal this, but I've never done any dark room stuff.

And it breaks my heart. And UCLA, our edit bays in the film school were right across from the dark room. And I'd always be like in the editing lab with avid. And they'd look across out the door and I'd see the dark room sign on the door across the hall. And I'd always be like, damn, one day I want to go develop my own photos. And I never have. And it's a tragedy. And I need to do it.

Those names are definitely having more fun. I know I want to so bad I still shoot a lot of film right if I was just like can I can wear in the dark honestly just

and if they say no at first flex be like yeah look at all these fucking movies I shot and they're okay I don't know if I could use that but yeah I have an IMDB people are very impressed by an IMDB

yeah no I have to I really really want to because I shoot a lot of film And I scan my own negatives, but that's about the only thing that. I don't even do that. I send it all to the dark room in San Clementi. And then I get back scans before the film meeting gets back to me.

And I'm happy with their work. But yeah, the dark room was definitely a lot of things. I've said this a bunch, but I'd love your take on it. Like being, obviously you had a more well-rounded experience going to film school. Some people don't go to film school. But how did the editing specifically impact you as a deep eight? I feel like So I thought I wanted to be an editor first

When I discovered like Don't want to date myself But like Adobe Premiere Elements came out in high school or something And the magic of Because I remember editing with VHS Like recording to a VHS tape You'd record from the TV And you'd have to like cut in order or whatever

Because I'd make like montages and things I would cut like games film scenes together and create like cool reels from games and stuff like that. Interesting. So stupid. Oh no, that's better than what I did. Which was film and no edit.

Oh yeah. That too. You like shoot in sequence and that's the thing. But I remember having a computer and being able to discovering the magic of like having clips and being able to put them wherever you wanted to music and create a feeling.

So I think I quickly learned that I cannot sit in a room or chair like one spot for very long and I definitely belong on set and I think that's like the best place in the world but editing definitely like my love for that definitely I keep in the back of my head and I'm always thinking about the edit

and how things go together and timing and things like that so I think it's really important to have a grasp on it and an appreciation for that when you're shooting because that was a year, you were handing over everything that that editor gets. So it better be, it better have good, good, you know, coverage, et cetera in it to help form the ultimate thing. Yeah. Well, and also knowing, for me, it's always been knowing what shot I don't need.

And sometimes that means killing your baby, but, you know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Or not handing the editor stuff that they could kill you with. Totally. that's another thing too that's evolved is I think I started out over shooting or think you know like oh got to get those options and now like one one scrambled which is it's out

by I remember we shopped a very pristine and I was like we had a couple things on the shot list of like coveragey things or lean a lens up and get a close up but I was like let's just do a winner it doesn't need anything else does that feel right to you And it did. And it was like amazing. So yeah, it's like I've become even more minimalistic in knowing what will work and what you don't need, which is awesome. Yeah. You know, what's, what's Pinterest thing? It's about what you don't do that informs the audience. Yeah. How was scrambled? How was it working with a director who's also an actor and the writer? It's a tall order for a DP in a way because I think, you know, director already needs to trust. so much, but now Leo was in front of the camera in every scene. And if it's an OTS on another actor,

she's the shoulder. Like, she doesn't get to be a commotter. So, yeah, I had done it before where I had a director, you know, I've had directors in their films. But, you know, this was like 20 days so fast, so many scenes. There's quite a few scenes that aren't even in the movie. And so we shot even more, you know, and there's like a really healthy amount of locations. But it was, I mean, like I read the script, I knew she was an amazing writer. We started prepping and I felt really good about her as a director. And then on set I was like, oh my gosh, we're all falling in love with this character in an amazing performance. So it was very quick to realize like, we is pretty brilliant and knows what she's doing.

And so it was about me, you know, meeting her there and really being able to let her trust me and know that we got it and run the set with our AD Eden and really. like, you know, keep us moving along because Leah wasn't at monitor. And we didn't have the time to have her looking at playback all the time. Right. So, you know, she can't watch it before we move on. We have to move on. So it was great. Like we prepped, but we did it enough to like, because again, I think you feel things on the day. And you're like, you know what? Actually, we should go over here and go on this lens instead because you're just feeling the power of performance and things are going to change. So we left her. room to be spontaneous and Leah and I could kiv it together and um so we did enough preparation

to where we could yeah we had a form trust really quickly because we also had never worked together before right how much time how much prep time did you have uh I think formally two weeks but we we started talking right away and turned it in like three um still quick and of course, yeah, so quick. And I think I also was looking up, I think I got this script like less than two months before they wanted to go. So it was like, we need, let's go get coffee right now. Like start dissecting the script. What part of town are you in? Yeah, exactly. Word for word, my first question. Like, where are you? So yeah, it was very much like, we need to get to know each other, get to know what, you know, she wanted to do with the movie.

and go from there. So how were you able to, a 20-day shoot is quick, especially because the film looks so good. What were the kind of things that helped you stay on your feet and stay nimble? Like were you keeping a light lighting package? Do you have an ethos for the lighting interiors, ex-teriors? Like how are you approaching all that visually? Yeah, it was definitely, well, so this was a movie that I think is like,

it's modern day LA it's rooted in realism I wanted to you know the sources were things that I had available to us like windows and like what is what exists in all the spaces that we have you know we had a lot of different spaces to shoot in um so yeah I think you know we had a lighting package that was versatile and covered us in night exterior night interior day exterior day interior you know different And, you know, we were, my Gaffer Tom is one of my best friends and so incredible and proactive. And he had everything on his iPad.

So we weren't, you know, going to adjust things. Oh, yeah, the wireless DMX. Yes. Like on all of stairs. Oh, my gosh. Such a time saver. So being able to do those things and, you know, and it was a, you know, small movie.

So how do we get a package that's versatile and allows us to do the things and ultimately protect. the time Leah has to do all these scenes, you know, and make sure she feels like she's getting enough takes. Enough, you know, take amount was definitely a struggle because we had so much to do and, you know, angles and scenes and company moves and just all this stuff. So, um, I definitely think she felt that too, but I, you know, it's, it's how do you give, um, enough time to, like, try things and, you know, when 20 days, you unfortunately don't get.

as much as you want to in terms of like variety and stuff you just got to go you got to keep going yeah i can't remember who it was but it was a director who was also the actor maybe it was like jonathan freaks or someone but uh they were saying that the thing that they had to learn was as the director to actually do enough takes for themselves because they felt like they were rushed did you experience that where she would she'd be uh lea'd be like all right we got it and you're like Like, you did two takes? I don't, like, I don't even know if you felt it out. We didn't even rehearse this yet.

Like, no, no, no, next shot, next shot. Yes, but that was such a positive thing. Like, Leah knew this character inside and out. She knew her script inside and out. So she definitely was like so efficient and knew exactly when she got it. And because she wasn't a monitor, we just had the system where she wouldn't even call cut. She just look at me and be like, good. And then I'd be like, yep, let's go.

So it was like, if she had the performance and I had it technically in camera, we were good, you know? And, you know, that doesn't mean it's perfect all the time. And like, you know, there were some frames we had to rotate and post because we're like, you know, like little tidy things that we had to adjust later. But again, I think, you know, film is so much about knowing what battles to fight for and what, you know, where do you need to take more time for? for certain things and where can you make up time and stuff like that. So, you know, if I couldn't shape a light off of a wall that I know I can take down later, I'm not going to fight, you know, if the talent's in front of my camera, I'm not going to stop everybody because I need to, you know, set a flag or something.

I'm going to go because. So we have funnel four. Yeah. But again, you know, it's like little, you know, things like that, that I'm not going to interrupt this process to do something for me that I know you know what I mean it's like that is really so integral in our jobs too is like knowing when to push and when not to push yeah the uh the example that comes to mind which I'm I know who which DP it was but uh remember the clip of uh Christian bail yelling at someone on set do you know which DP that was yeah yeah uh

That's an example of what you shouldn't do. And going to set a light during the take. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think this is a big thing that we learn is like that space is so sacred and you do not interrupt it. If, you know, especially we're really so fast. We have so much to do. I don't have time. And again, if you were, this is why it's so important to be ready is the DP. and the op and everybody before that talent walks on.

Like once you release second team, you better be fucking ready because you do not get to say, oh, now I see something out of a window. Now I, you know, whatever. Like, you need to really check yourself because you cannot interrupt this process. And again, Leah's in front of the camera all the time. So we need to like really know what we're doing.

And, you know, Leah's amazing and was down. You know, she saw something. And she's, you know, she's got her little monitor. And while she's over on the camera, she would be like, okay, like she was down to to go with it and adjust. But talent might not always be, if you should have so down to find the thing that we're, you know, we're trying to figure out. So yeah, got to be ready. The way I heard it described was like if you're a recording person, like, you know, the person recording bands to hit record before the band walks in and just have a microphone. somewhere is you never know when when paul mccartney's going to walk in and start noodling on the

guitar you know in practice where you're like uh you know yes yeah to be ready um is so important it sounds like you did a lot of uh basically directing yourself having to to you know obviously the DP and the director have such a uh uh hip connected relationship but it sounds like you had to carry a lot more of that work. Yeah, I think so. In a way. No, no, no. Yeah, just in a way of just like continuity things and communicating with other department

heads. And if I'm noticing something on wardrobe, you know, I had unspoken permission to be like, hey, let's, hey, can we fix this thing or whatever before we were all? Yeah, I just had to be even more so aware of everything, which we already have so much to think about. So, you know, it took, it took all of us really, you know, banning together to make sure we had Leah covered and everything was the way it needed to be. Without thinking too hard, can you, can you remember, like, maybe a lighting set up that you really nailed and were, we're happy with and one that maybe gave you a bit of a challenge?

Without thinking too hard. Yeah, I think one thing that really worked out. is there's a support group scene in the movie and there's a huge circle of women sitting and telling stories and I think we had to change locate or we were struggling in final location with that one that felt like you know a room where you'd have kind of a support therapy session couldn't find a high school basketball court yeah exactly not a high school but didn't you feel too churchy or you know like specific we kind of wanted more of an ambiguous space and that turned out really pretty Leah has a really long monologue and the windows and everything

ended up and everyone was actually really happy with how that looked and it was very simple a couple lights outside and things to supplement inside one thing that was really tough but I'm actually really proud of is I can't say too much about what happened in the scene, but Leah's character decides to go somewhere she shouldn't go. And it's a night exterior. It's a night exterior.

And I really pride myself on like, I shoot and get all the info on the sensor. There's nothing that's gone. You know what I mean? There's no shadows that are totally unretrievable and there's no highlights that are like grossly white and just

unreture. Well, you guys show them? Alexa? Yeah, I was Alexa Minna left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was really proud of the way we exposed the night, you know, and you can see the house is behind her when she's at a window and, like, things like that.

But again, that was really hard. And there's a scene where someone is on, standing on the, like, balcony of the house looking down. and you know again small movie couldn't backlight that person and that was kind of a little bit of a heartbreak but in general like that scene that you know night exterior's so hard and you're trying not to be you know you're permitted but you can't be intrusive to other houses and things like that I was happy with what we were able to do for that because actually not also really important yeah I was actually going to ask like on a smaller budget what are some night exterior tips because I feel like if you can't fly a fucking balloon or like three condors it feels very restrictive i mean sensors are great definitely you know a lot but yeah yeah definitely no balloons or condors on scrampled um but i think you know i think a great trick too is putting little sources in the back like little a x3s or a little like a leco pointed at camera you've got little you know boca things to

play with. I think quality is really important. I think there's a whole controversial thing about like it's moonlight, hard or soft. I know it's hard, but I think on camera it can sometimes feel a little better when it's soft. It can feel a little bit more naturalistic in a way if you've just got, you know, exposing things and it's soft and it's not drawing attention to itself if you're doing like moaning ambience, especially outside. And I think, I think that was really important.

So, so, you know, lighting Leah and the other characters, but also really taking care of your backgrounds is really important in making sure you've got exposure. Yeah. Whenever I think of hard mood light, I think of like Terminator 2, like that blue, you know, backlit thing. Yeah. And it never, it's never looked natural. Even as a kid, I was like, that's not the moon.

Yeah. But you go outside on a full moon and your shadows on the ground. Like it is hard. It's the sun. It's sunlight ultimately. So it's like, feel right. No,

it doesn't feel right. I think in some instances it does, but I think for scramble it was very much of like, my goal here is just to like expose the house and like see everything so that we can then, you know, Leah pops out of the background and, you know,

it was beautifully keyed and all that stuff. And you've got exposure and texture. because I think night exterior it's like about creating layers of texture. Yeah. Did you have much conversation with your colorist or was that kind of out of your hands? We did. We had a call to talk about the look. We had a lot that was from a different colors that I work with a lot that I felt really

confident in. So I didn't actually have a lot to. the change. It was just about consistency and like, you know, cooling things off if they were feeling too warm. I think the lot was ultimately

really warm. So just like balancing things in the end. We didn't go in a crazy direction in color. We kind of kept it. And I always tried to do that. I was trying to have a really cool lot that I'm excited about and do as much in camera as I can.

And then it's just about like, you know, consistency and things like that. And, you know, Scramble was fortunate. it to have a couple days with two cameras, so just making sure that they look the same and things like that. Yeah, I would say that like, probably like 70, 80% of the D piece I've interviewed are all pretty much on the like one show lot train, maybe two if they're going to have a different one for like night. But the idea of like a different look for every scene,

I think is completely out the window. I think I maybe interviewed two people who had that ethos or like a or like a dit who was just really hands on um yeah yeah yeah and we didn't even have like an actual dIT on scramble we had we were just downloading and grading daily and so i didn't have like like live color grading or anything um yeah i was one single lot but i've done things like like lucky that i did in 2019 had like a couple luts that were really fun like because the third act is crazy so it's like an extra saturated like halation and all this crap like on, yeah, one LUT for the end, which is really cool. So it's fun to mix them, but I think you really got to have a reason to do it.

So this was, yeah, the one show let. And you were able to keep the Lut that you liked from before, or did you have to call that Colourist and be like, hey, could you send me that? This was a new one for Scramble from that Colors, but it was based on another movie let. But that movie let was colder. So I was like, can I get a little warmer and a little softer, le? for scramble and that's why I used.

Well, that's nice. Some, some colors. I speak to Reed Morano. She was working on a project with my friend Nick and we were having lunch the other day. And he was like, oh, yeah, you know, I got this whole pack of Lutz from Reed. And I was like, can I see him? He goes, absolutely not. Yeah, exactly.

And I was like, what, bro, I'm not going to use them or anything. I just want to see him. And he's like, nope. Yeah. directors. Yeah, they're definitely people's like secret sauce sometimes, for sure. I, uh, over the pandemic, you can't see mine, Kenny now. Please send it to me.

I, I, over the pandemic, I became a colorist because I couldn't go out and shoot and all my stuff's like corporate work. So that was dead, right? Um, and so, but I had plenty of friends who had made stuff that needed finishing. And I'm that kind of nerd who has a powerful enough computer. I'm like, send it to me. So I did like a couple of features and a couple docs. And I really like coloring.

Like if I wasn't, you know, in love with being a DP, I would absolutely pivot to coloring. You get to stay in your own house. You know how much times I haven't had to put on pants? Yeah. I don't have pants on right now. No. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, bye. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's awesome. And it's so much fun for us too. Like, color is like so much fun. going to the repeater and being able to really like sculpt again and like revisit everything it's really cool yeah well and it's uh you know if someone says oh i hated this shot it really hurts

but if someone says oh i don't like this color i'm like i will change it i don't care you know it's like it's very uh it's very uh the ego doesn't need to be as uh hardened when you're a colorist you know yeah yeah um well for me i'm sure for some yeah i said this in the last interview i get to interview Jill Bogdanovich at some point. I'm very excited to... Oh, that's awesome. I'm really... She's so good.

I met her at the Kodak Awards. And I just wanted to be like, so what do you want from a DP and what do you want to stop seeing from DEP? Like, you tell me what you want so I can be better for colorists, you know? Yeah. My goal is to always get there and have the colorist feel like so much is already there. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And that they just get to make it better and make it their own. You know, like we get to do something new with it, but it's in a really good spot for them. It doesn't feel like it has to be repaired in any way. Yeah, yeah, polishing instead of fixing. Yeah, exactly. Do you have any, this is a terrible question, but I've already started it. Any, anything that you know, like, always kind of, the lights in the background is a great example, but anything that kind of adds a little production value to your shots that, you know, in a pinch, you're like, well, this will.

I'm thinking for film students right now you know something that'll like well if you got nothing you can do this what far side keys the obvious that we were just talking about this in the last episode like yeah it's not a rule but it always does kind of look better it does look better

yeah the sources in the back is kind of my favorite like I did a student film when I was in film school in the desert and to avoid it feeling like a soundstage I bought I don't know 20 strings of Christmas lights walked 500 feet out from where we were shooting

and like made a city like it looks like that's a city not just smart idea well done that's a great idea because it's like how do you I don't know I think that's like

the thing that I'm always thinking about is how do you create texture and like I also think okay something I would say is always try to have a highlight in your frame because otherwise it'll feel really flat so if you can create it you know

if it is a source or if you're against a wall, like try to get a little bit of the window or just on the edge, you know, just like have a highlight somewhere. I think it helps a lot. A practical or like whatever. I just did a commercial last week and this character gets up off of the couch. And on the couch set up,

he's got, you know, there's a couple little practicals and things. But then when he gets up and I shifted to my two, it was like so flat. So we put something else in the deep space. And it just, like, made the whole frame better. You know, just like thinking about sources, I think is really important. Those little Aperture MCs have really been a godsend for me in those regards.

Just put little puck lights. I mean, tubes are obviously great, but just little like puck lights hidden behind a vase, behind, you know, behind the fucking painting. I don't know. Just you can put them anymore. Yeah. Magnet. Yeah, mine is get three AX3s on like a triple header on a, stand and go put them across the sidewalk and now you've got some sort of I don't know I don't

know what it doesn't matter what it is yeah yeah yeah like in the background and they're just little light sources and it just makes it so much better it lights up a dark patch where otherwise you have nothing well and it's something like I feel like I knew this intrinsically but it took you saying it for me to like actually think about it but the idea of just going back to the idea of night exterior is like how do you like the whole space you don't have to you create the illusion that you did by putting those lights in the background and then it you know it sells the idea which you know as half the battle is just being a magician you know yeah totally yeah yeah um well i uh i should let you go because we're starting to go

over time but uh no no it's not your fault i i'm trying to be respectful of your time i had one podcast that went for three and a half hours and I had to chop the hell out of that because a lot of it was like me and him going we can't talk about this but yeah so I'm trying to be better this season about you know yeah yeah being respectful of people's time there's shit to do um but uh I end the podcast we'll have to have you back because I feel like we could probably do another two hours but uh totally um but or you live in L.A we can fucking hang out anyway I want to have I want to have a, we've done now, I think you'll probably be around episode 100 and something. I want to have like a DP mixer for just only the guests of the podcast and they're like

friends. I have some friends that own restaurant, like nice bars and restaurants around there. So I'm like, if I could just figure that out, I feel like that'd be a pretty cool. And because the company that distributes this podcast owns film tools or is film. tools, I guess. So I feel like we could get like a bunch of sponsors to like pay for it if we just allow like whenever Ari to just set up a camera and be like, you want to look at the 35? So in one room we'll just have like 35 fucking Raptor and a couple of lights and then the

other rooms where the party's that's cool. So you can come to that. This is the first time I've told anyone like. I'll figure that out. But okay, two questions that I ask every DV at the end of the podcast. First one. uh everyone likes to ask about no we'll put that one next uh if you were to uh schedule a double feature of scrambled and another movie what would the other movie be well

um i don't know whether to pick something similar or something totally different it's your oyster you can do whatever you want Jeff Cronin-Winth picked for being the Ricardo's Alien vs. Predator. Oh, man. Oh, man. I was going to say, you know, because it was inspiration for scramble, but then I'm like, are you going through too much emotional trauma? So let's say alien because we need a refresh because it's my favorite and it's a refresher.

You get to like do something totally different and crazy. Yeah, that'd be good. I mean, a strong female lead still with both. You've got some similarities there. Exactly. He's just got a different set of problems. Yeah. And an alien three has to deal with pregnancy.

There you go. So you'll make your way back to. this whole, you know, having children in your futures. Yeah. And then, oh, man, I just remember it. The beginning of Alien 3 is so brutal when it's just like, remember that kid, she's dead.

I know. Oh, my gosh. Man, I should have pressed for this question. Oh, no. The next one's worse. No, boy. Everyone really freezes up on this one, but I love it. A lot of people will ask, like, oh,

What's the best piece of advice you ever got? It's always like, I don't stick with it. I hate that. What's the worst piece of advice you ever got? Or heard someone get. It doesn't have to be directed straight to you. I know I have a juicy answer to this somewhere in the past.

I know the best piece of advice. Well, we'll take that while you think. Can I pivot to that? If you can addendum. The best. that I think I heard someone say and now I use it all the time

is that to a DP locations are our cast you can only do so much with a bad location and so much of cinematography is what I'm pointing

the camera at and if you got a shit location I don't know what to tell you like it's the reason I've started

interviewing set designer or art department people I've only interviewed like three but yeah anytime I talk to production designers it's always like a wealth of information yeah that's helpful for DPs you know totally um yeah I mean I feel like the worst stuff is like

or the worst things people would say is really to be the feeling of that you have to be so wrapped up in your own journey and so focused on yourself um or that I don't know. And I think it's so much about listening to other people and consuming other people's work and it's not just about you kind of thing. I don't know.

I know there's a juicy answer because I've worked with a lot of shitty people in the past and I feel like they said horrible things to me. I would definitely, I would definitely think of something. But yeah, I don't know. I should put that in the brief.

Honestly, it's putting up. My brain. Yeah. Well, that's probably for the best. I've stumped enough people with this one that I probably should put it in the like booking link. Like, hey, by the way, these two are coming. Yeah, because then I can think of a gem, someone said. We could, we'll put it in the show notes if you think of something between now and like two months for now when this fucking podcast comes.

I'm so backed up. I've got like, that's great. No, it's, oh, it's great for me because I don't have to like do it. especially with like South by or Sundance and stuff. I do like 15 in a week. But the problem is the problem is we'll have, you know, like the PR, she's gone now,

but the PR people will be like, hey, when's that coming out? And I'm like, you gave me 15 interviews. This comes out week. And I don't want me to do. Yeah,

totally. You guys don't pay me. No one pays me. You think I'm going to, this is going to be weekly. This is for the audience. Actually, before I let you go,

there was apropos of almost nothing. it did occur to me you had mentioned like oh the the getting representation and stuff like that stuff you talked to the UCLA people about and one thing that I asked a lot of DPs is like oh has a reel been relevant to you and it sounds more and more like reels don't really because people are just looking at your ass project but how did you navigate going from the time of meeting reels to having representation and and having assistance in your career in that way Um, I think, uh, and I think it's great and I'm so grateful. I just didn't have time anymore to make one. And I feel really fortunate to, I do a lot of commercials, but I also do movies. And I feel like both have really, I've seen myself growing both, which is amazing. Commercials, it's different. Like commercials, they need to see the, the products and the pieces. And those are 30 second, 60 second things that are so easy to send. Like, here are all my beverage things. Here are all my clothing ads. You know, like that's the real.

Yeah. And narrative wise, as I do more and more features, it's like what features have you done? Can I get screener links? It doesn't, the montage doesn't matter anymore. Or can I watch a short that feels along the same lines? So I think the requests have changed. but I naturally just was shooting so much that I just didn't I never felt like I had time to really dig into the thing

also finding a song for that shit is so harsh that I will get one and then be like yeah cutting the song I don't like the song anymore and they're like and then like want to change it just like I don't know it the process of cutting the reels too and I know people get like their favorite editors to cut them which I could probably do, but I feel really bad about doing that, even if I pay them. It's like, why am I, why are they wasting their time on my reel? But I feel like, yeah, I just fell out of it.

I feel like, you know, and it became more about the portfolio itself than some sort of two-minute montage. Yeah. And how did what got you onto the path of getting representation because, or any, any form of, like, official, you know, because I feel like a lot of people think, once you get that, you'll start. getting jobs and it's the opposite. It's, you get a lot of jobs and then you get an agent or whatever. Yes. Yeah.

I think I don't know how to translate this, but I felt ready, whatever that means. I felt like I was stuck in this really low budget world and I knew DPs were rep at some point in their careers. And if I could have any control over that situation or put myself. in a position where I could be wrapped to open up the door to other things I was going to try to figure out what that was and so I

knew so many people that were wrapped and started meeting agents and then WPA actually reached out to me around the same time so it was like kind of a perfect thing where I was feeling ready to like just open the door to more things because I stuck so yeah

as always networking went knowing people who have agents can put you in touch with agents yeah and hearing about their experiences I'm like you know how to because again you don't talk about that second till the school you don't know how to navigate

the agent relationship so it's you know it's really about getting to know more people and personalities and all that stuff and I just knew that I wanted to do bigger things and and

you know have deal memos and have you know protection in that way of like people who rep you and can help you get paid on time and all those things like that logistical part of it too is that alone you know you don't want to be putting time into that you know what I mean you want to I'm still that at that I've got probably three jobs right now that should have paid me forever ago but they're like my friends and so I'm like yeah yeah one of the UK too so we're never awake at the same time

Oh, geez. Yeah, and none of us like talking about money and it's just, you know, there is this, it's a job and there's a business element. And so not having to do that is really nice. Yeah. Well, I've kept you long enough after the hour, but thank you so much for chatting with me. And I'd love to come back. Yes, please. Whenever you want. I'll come back. I'll come back with all my bad advice, which I feel like you just, we, I feel like you just gave me a second. chance to be, like, thinking about it while I was talking my agents, but I have not thought about it, so. Fair enough. We'll have you back and we'll launch through all that stuff.

Great. Well, thanks again and have a great rest of you day. Yeah, thanks, Kenny. Talk, Sam. Frame and Reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F at Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax and Truex branding company.

You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Pro Video Coalition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.