Frame & Reference Podcast - 96: "Perry Mason" Season 2 DP Marialy Rivas

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

On todays episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Marialy Rivas about season 2 of the HBO series "Perry Mason." Enjoy! Follow Kenny on Twitter ⁠@kwmcmillan⁠ and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠Filmtools.com⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 96 with Marieli Rivas, DP of episodes 5 and 8 of Season 2 of Perry Mason. Enjoy. Even, you know, you're prepping for movies and stuff, but are you able to, do you watching anything cool right now? I'm watching Dead Ringers because two of my friends are directors there and I, I love the Cronombers movie and I'm really enjoying it. Is it a, is it a show? I haven't heard of it.

It's in prime video. It's like a reimagination of that Cronenberg film. and by Alice Birch, who is like a great scriptwriter. And Rachel Weiss is the leading protagonist. And it's for me, it's really amazing. I haven't finished yet, but I think it's really great. What about you? Shit. So I'm of two minds because obviously the nerd in me is like, well, we just finish the Mandalorian.

We just finished Star Trek Picard. You know, now we're on, I guess, succession. and all the standard, you know, like the ones that everyone's watching. But I got to go to the Picard season finale. They showed the last two episodes in IMAX. Wow. So that was an interesting. Well, it was really educational because, like, I'm not the type of, like,

I have a bunch of friends who are really into, like, cosplay and stuff. So my buddy kind of halfway dressed up, which isn't quite my purview. But it was very educational to see a television show. displayed in iMacs you know with the with the correct sound and everything and then go back and watch that on my TV at home and see what the differences are because i think a lot of it's very depressed i mean especially if you do a movie you you know that it needs to be stinging in the big screen because when you do a tv show you do it for tv so there are certain decisions that you make knowing that right but when you do a movie you make other

decisions and then if people watch it in the computer you're like nah it's well and it also was such a great argument obviously for the cinema for seeing movies in theaters but it also highlighted how people like oh i just have streaming i don't need to buy blu-rays or whatever because i'm a big proponent of buying moving the physical media because you never know if the streamer's going to edit your favorite movie out from under you or something like that yeah but um Even just like, obviously that there's an enormous difference between IMAX and the, you know, compression that you see on your television, but even just watching like a Blu-ray version of a movie versus the streaming. Like there's a huge difference that you can see and oftentimes here, if you have like a bare minimum, a sound bar. But every time, I don't know why it surprises me every time.

I'm like, oh, that's right. It was made for this, you know? Yes. The, what was the other one? The other thing I did notice, though, is because it was shot for television. And you can tell me if you think this way. Way too many close-ups for IMAX. I was like right up front, so I'm just like, just everyone is this big on the thing.

Whereas I assume for television, you kind of have to shoot that way because you're expecting a much smaller screen. Yes, exactly. I don't imagine many Like extreme close up in that huge screen When you when you shot Because you shot four features over the past A handful of years right Two two features

Three short films and three Oh short Three TV shows And now I shot up for to be show. Do you, how is, how does shooting for,

I mean, obviously we just kind of mentioned some of it, but how does shooting for the big screen, so to speak, differ from shooting on television just from a kind of a practical

sense? I think, I think it has to do mostly with the fact that movies like their strength lays on atmosphere so you have to create a conversation between a shot

the sound and the story of course but it's very much about atmosphere more than anything else and TV it's about plot and dialogue like sometimes I joke is like people talking in rules.

If you simplify it, though even though nowadays we know that TV as a medium is progressing incredibly and many, many shows that are appearing nowadays are very complex

and are relaying more and more in atmosphere. Most shows are plots and character and dialogue instead of atmosphere. So that changes everything because you need to, for film, you need to find a color palette, a type of sound that you're imagining in a huge space that is going to touch more subconscious part of the audience,

whereas with TV you need to think, am I giving this information right? Like, are they going to understand this plot and this twist of the plot with this type of shot? So it's, for me, a completely different way to think about a movie and about a TV show, right? Yeah, I guess movie, uh, in, in a sort of modern parlance, uh, movies are all about the vibes. Yes. Yes. That is interesting, you know, because there's a lot of discourse online about like, oh, you know, what is cinematic.

And I guess I never really thought about it that like what, obviously, you know, lens choices and story, you know, all that. But at the end of the day, what I've described as feeling is truth, just like you can have a scene in a movie where someone's literally just quote unquote, vibing for five minutes. And that, that'll play. Whereas in a TV show, someone would be like, why, that was useless. That didn't fucking matter. Plus, you don't have, like, you don't have the same focus or concentration and you want the story to advance and make twists. And that's the essence of TV and it's okay because it's the medium, right? But a movie, for example, in my second movie, I create a whole sound that needed to feel like a, when you say, terremoto or earthquake, right?

We have a lot of earthquakes in Chile. so I know how it sounds because it's a very, very deep sound and you start to feel like your body's like because it's very deep and that I was only able to achieve thinking that you're going to listen in a cinema not on the TV. If you listen to the TV it doesn't create that same feeling

and that feeling makes you feel nauseous, scared but subconsciously. Because it's a very, very low tone that you don't really understand what's going on, but you're like, and in TV, that would not be effective probably. You need to be more. It's more on the surface, you know. It's more on the surface. And movies is more subtext in a sense.

Yeah. And TV is more text. Even though now they are crossing more and more. But what happens is now if I see movies, that are treated like TV, I'm like, but why don't they do this for TV? You know, like now I'm expecting more from movies because as TV advances, you need to have a different way of storytelling visually, right, in the movies. Well, it's like, I hadn't really thought about this, but you're right.

Like, you know, film is inherently a multi-sensory experience. You've got even theaters that do that like whole 4D thing, you know, or they literally shake the chair and spray water at you or whatever. But yeah, television is almost closer to a book. And also a lot of people leave the subtitles on, which I know from people who are hearing impaired to wherever, that's obviously very important. But I find it kind of strange because I'm like,

you're missing the acting, like at least in the television that you get acting. It's just like you can be doing something else and you're hearing the dialogue because the dialogues provides you information. So like you can be doing something else and you still are connected, but film, as you say, sometimes is someone quiet, just looking at something and because of the sound and because of the scene that happened prior and after, there is a new meaning that it's created there, right? Yeah. It is, yeah, I suppose television until, obviously, you know, we've had 78-inch televisions come out that, you know,

amazing OLEDs that really can nice deep blacks great colors all that but um until we can really hype up great sound systems that are easy to install in an apartment make even even as cinematic as television shows can get they will never have that multi-sensory experience that is an interesting thought because obviously sound is a very is most important almost but it's yeah it's 50% of no i i love sound and i think it's 50% of the experience, but when you know it's going to be standing on a TV, you make certain decisions because you know that final delivery is going to be there and that most people have, doesn't have like a surround sound, whereas with film, you do other, other stuff because you know it's going to be seen on a theater. Yeah, you have more, not latitude, but you have more dynamic range where you can make those. And you have other tools.

Like it's different tools. Yeah. The earthquake thing is special. I grew up in San Francisco and now I live in L.A. And it is hard to explain. Like I have some times from like Louisiana and stuff. I hang out with all the time. And like it's like sometimes you can tell by the weather that it's going to happen, which it's hard to explain.

And yeah, that initial. There is something in the air that you think, oh, maybe. earthquake is coming because there is something that you feel when you have experienced earthquakes and then it's this sound that is not almost a non sound but it has a sound it's very strange yeah it's way we had a huge storm here like a year ago and like lightning was hitting outside my house and stuff and that was some of the craziest natural sounds i've ever heard in my life um that i don't think you could accurately replicate But, yeah, the, the subsonic rumble of an earthquake definitely is more terrifying than anything because you don't, at least with a lightning strike, it's over.

With an earthquake, it's like, we're along for some ride. And then if it goes longer in like four seconds, you're like, do I need to leave the house? Yes, you don't know how that is going to get. That's the issue. Like, I hope it doesn't go and growing. I saw an interview, speaking at Chile, I saw an interview where you had mentioned that, like, filmmaking was banned when you were a kid. Yeah. But movies were not.

No. So how? Because, because we had a dictatorship, Pinocet's dictatorship that lasted until 19. So during that time, he closed all film school, he put military guys as head of all the universities, and they exiled or killed all the filmmakers because all the filmmakers at that time were left leaning. So they didn't want no one informing what was really going on with the torture and the killing of people. people. So they banned all the artists in a sense. So I grew up with that. So I'll watch either like at the beginning, it was only American movies, of course. Right. But right after when the dictatorship ended. And a little bit before you know us always when everything is ban, a contra-cultural. appears because it's natural.

So there was this little like art cinema houses where they show they showed Tarkovsky, for example. So I remember being like really young and going to watch

Tarkovsky and Rocky. So I always laugh because my taste or my aim with movies is always do something that has layer and depth and hold on

a shit point but but also that reaches audiences and it's not like very

elites to the highly educated people that can only understand this

very particular movie you know like I like the reach so I think

that's because I loved as a kid and as a teenager cinema profoundly and American cinema profoundly. And I think my heart is a mix of those two.

So was you're trying to get into filmmaking couched more in sort of punk rock anti-authoritarianism or that kind of American escapism or somewhere in the middle? Yes. Can you ask the question again in the beginning? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, by the dictator banning art school, banning filmmaking, did that make you want to basically say, fuck you to the government and start making films? Or was it couched more in you just loving cinema and, you know, the inability? Now I got it. Now I got it. I'm not sure because during Pindochette dictatorship, I was a kid. It ended when I was 12 years old. So my family was from the last, but everything that happened, they tried to not tell you as a kid because it was scary, right? But you knew because it was out there happening.

So I don't know if I was fully conscious that my dream was so evolutionary. I just knew since a very early age, I wanted to do that. And also because with some neighbors that funnily enough were throw in a shit and used to throw things at my house at night, during the day, we went to tape movies. So we did like the godfather kids version with another name. And we did like a horror movie. So we did horror movie. I still have them actually.

And I was probably like nine or eight. So it's funny to me how these people that hated me because they were kids. They could not comprehend the political side of it. So it was like a quote-unquote hate because we were friends. And they take on the politics of their parents. They don't have enough of their own. Exactly. So we did those four movies and it's very interesting to watch because during the

dictatorship, mostly radio would inform of. the underground things that were happening and I see the movies and we have like a kid laying down and listening to the radio and it says like a body has been discovered blah blah blah because we as kids were picking up on that and it's so strange to watch us understanding our our context as that but I guess also like I always loved it so it was a Again, I think it was a way to escape, a way to see other realities, but also a way to rebel. Yeah. I think it was, again, my heart in a mix of those two forces that drives, like, European Art House Cinemas and American cinema. Yeah. Well, and I think too, like, I think it's probably helped you as an artist, um, listening

having you know your childhood couched in radio and stuff because the same the same way that you know people say like oh reading books is important it's not it is obviously to get different stories that you wouldn't inherently be drawn to but i think it it helps your imagination you know because you're not today i think because everything is so visual i've got five screens like literally in front right now and um it's as a as a somewhat of an educator I find it's difficult to push against like, hey, I know it's very flashy, this, you know, whatever YouTube tutorial you like or this photograph that you enjoy to want to replicate that. But reading a book or listening to the radio and having those ideas come up from within you creates a unique voice that otherwise you wouldn't have if you're trying to copy. I agree.

And on top of that, my parents raised me. in a Waldorf school, which was very punk for the time because it was the 80s and no one was doing that. Today, alternative education is very popular, but at that time was completely punk. No one was doing that. We were like 20 kids and we were the second generation. And so I did not have a TV at home, so I read a lot. And on top of that, I am a lesbian, but at that time, in such a constraint and repressive, society. Of course, I didn't have internet. So I did not know that that existed. So I actually felt like I was the only one in the world who was feeling like that. So I think that also I was

very comfortable reading books and going to the movies. But I was a very active kid and I was always a leader saying like, let's do this show of we have like a rock concert and we invite our Like I, when I talk to my, to these friends from, from that era, and they're like, oh, thank you for such a fun childhood. Because you were always making, because I didn't have a TV. I was always like super active. Like, why don't we do a bike club and we help go out? Now, let's do a supper class. Like I was always pushing and pushing things. So it was fun. Yeah. For me, it was strange. Yeah. The, uh, I was always, you actually, before I get to that, you, you had mentioned. You, you had mentioned. earlier, you were making films when you were younger. So was that on like Super Aid or something like that? Or how are you constructing these? How are you editing these, especially? It was edited on camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And it was the camera of the father of these neighbors, but they were the ones in front of us. Because at that time, it was super expensive

to have a video camera. It was probably a three-quarter or something, like, really particular. But he lent us the camera when we were, like, editing on. the camera because we didn't have any any tools or computers to edit or any yeah back back when i was uh younger it was it's i keep telling people like it's like the old man screaming at cos like you have it so easy now because like even back in the early 2000s you know if you didn't have a mac you didn't have firewire which meant that you couldn't get dv off of your camera so even though we had digital cameras i had a really nice canon xl too that i still owned we still had to edit in camera because we couldn't get the damn footage into the computer.

Now we have SD cards, you know? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It took a long time to arrive to like a comfortable place that we have. The, what was against? Oh, so, you know, obviously just we'll scoot forward a little bit just because I have all these questions and I should ask something.

You know, your, did your first film hit? What was it, 2010? My first feature? Yeah. Or like the first short or shorter film or whatever that kind of got you. The thing is, it's funny because I did my first short film when I was 19 at the school. And it ended up being a hit and the first queer movie of Chile. I didn't know.

I was just doing this documentary, mockumentary, because I needed to understand. understand the queer world of Chile that did not exist. And when I encounter it, I wanted to understand what was going on with me because I was not out of the closet and I was trying to figure myself out, which taught me that all the questions I have, it's easy if I put them on the screen. Right. This is the way I go to seek my stories. so that short film

I did not have the money to finish it in film because at that time you and it was a student film and I finished it on a very crappy computer in the school but that film now it has a cult status because it's 1996 and it premiered in Pompidou

like a month ago because it became like a huge film and at the time because I was a woman and no one spoke about that and because I was so young, I got a lot of press in Chile and I became kind of famous, very young in my country because of that short film. And then it took me many, many years until 2010 that I did again a fiction short film and I went to the official competition in Canwood and it's called Blocks, Blockis. And in the meantime, I moved to New York. I had a scholarship. I was living there.

Then 9-11 happened. And a couple of years, I came back to Chile because it was too intense to be over there for that period. And when I came back, we did not have an industry here, and we still hardly have one. So I said, well, I need to work. So I called a friend that was a director in commercials, and he's like, sure, be my AD. And I'm like, sure. And I was doing that. And like a couple of months after being an ID, like an agency said, oh, but you have that film that we like.

That's true. Do you want to direct an AD? Right. Like, do you want to direct commercials? And I'm like, because I never watched TV, I did not understand. Like, why was it funny? Like, I was like, sure, but what is this about? commercials, but I thought they have a camera. It was 35 millimeter at that time. So there is no way that you could get your hands on a camera here if you didn't direct a commercial. So I said, sure, and I started directing. And I was lucky enough that my first campaign was really big and I won a lot of awards. So I quickly had like a huge career doing commercials. And in the meantime, I was developing different movies.

But here, the only way we have to finance is a government fund that is really, really hard to win, especially if you're young, you know, and especially back there, back then. So when I was doing commercial from trying to apply to grants and developing movies, I met the Lamaine brothers, with Pablo Lamain, that did Spencer and Jackie and Noho and a fantastic woman. And they said to me, like, why don't you come direct commercial? with us at our company. And we make movies together because we also like movies. We love movies like you.

We don't want to do commercials, but we need to do commercials to survive. So let's do it together, the commerce shelf, and then we do the movies together. So, and then I arrived to, in the middle, I went to live in Spain and came back. So I arrived to 2010 with that short film. And two years after I did my first feature

that I went to Sandras with, and I won Best Script International Yeah. Damn. Well, you kind of half asked, half answered. Sorry. My question, which was, you know, you've, you had such success doing film. And my question was going to be like, how did you, what were the gigs in the meantime? Because I think that's kind of the unseen side of a lot of big DPs, big directors is like they're often shooting, you know, whatever perfume commercials and stuff. So how are you bringing those sort of filmmaking, filmmaking? cinematic sensibilities to your commercial stuff or what or were you just kind of taking the gig doing what they wanted not having to stress about it too much no i i enjoy i enjoyed them to a point and the good thing about latin like in the states if you do like fashion commercials then you're gonna do only that and if you do like tv drama you don't even have to draw like they're very like this, but in here, I had the opportunity to make comedy, cars, beer, fashion, travel.

Like, I went to, I shot also in Spain, I shot in Istanbul, I shot in France. Like, so it gave me, like, I was comfortable with the set, comfortable with the camera, comfortable with the lenses. I knew what a color palette, a color touch will do, emotionally. So it was a way to train, you know, and it has nothing to do. An effective commercial has nothing to do with a good film and has nothing to do with good TV or a good script. But it was a way, when I went to my first picture,

I was extremely comfortable on set because I've been on set already for years. So I was not, and also I knew the tools, like the visual tools, I know what a slow motion camera can achieve. I know what this type of sound because I was trying and trying and trying these many projects. So I believe in working

and I believe a director is a better director the more range you have. So even though I did not like it because for me it was always like, what? Like I was a little bit ashamed of that because they take themselves too seriously, especially because of that because I do believe that any work you do is worth is praiseworthy praise you know because you're working and that is good yeah but but inside the the medium the

people think and I remember saying we're not solving how to cure cancer we're not operating someone that is going to die like why are you all so stress out and this is making rich people richer by lying to people. So please, like, stop. This is not important. Don't call me at 2 a.m. in the morning because we're not helping anyone here for real. We're just doing our job and do a good job is very important, but really, you know, it's not, it's not the end of the world. That actually brings up a good question. Something that I certainly, as a younger man, would let situations that were potentially outside of my control stress me way the fuck out. And it still happens to me if I get overly, you know, overstimulated or whatever, I can

get a little short. But I've, you know, spent a lot of years trying to rein that in and be a little more dialed. And that is because of working on set. You know, you can't be blowing up on people. You got to be the leader in your case. I'm a DP, so it's still a leader and to a degree, but now. Yeah. Yeah, you need to be a leader of all your team and have like a precise sense of timing and a lot of things that if you don't control that and you stress out or you love yourself, it doesn't flow there. Yeah, a lot of people will just go off and smoke a bunch of cigarettes to stare at the floor. But I wanted to ask you, how are you as the captain of the ship I'm able to convey that that's the kind of set you want to run, that you want people to, yes,

you know, obviously there's money involved, so there's going to be stressed with the financiers being, you know, in charge of things or whatever. But how do you convey that calm to your crew and have them listen without thinking that you're being naive? Yes. Well, it's because I have work in different industries, it's like. like, again, you need to know what tools to take out of the box. So, for example, in Latam, the big issue is always you don't have enough money to achieve what is written. Like,

that's the base of any production. Even the big ones, it's never enough money. So you know you need to be fast and you need to be precise. So, for example, I arrive, I tell the DP, these are the shots. So So they, we plan it out. Then I talk to the actors and we go, like, I'm very fast on set because I've been on set for 20 years already. So I know how to run a set. So I push them, like usually here and go, I go like, let's go, let's go, let's go. Let's do this because we're always rushing, right?

And if the ID has that, because some IDs do it and some IDs don't. Like I prefer the ID to do it because I'm very exhausting to be like, hey, people. Let's go. So, and you should. ADs are so important. Yes. But sometimes if the ID doesn't have that character, because some don't, like, I wait for very precise scenes and I start like rushing the rest of the, like I can shoot and like it happened.

Now I just show run a show for Amazon in Argentina. And I went to Uruguay and they are very calm and they drink matty and I'm like, oh my, my god i'm gonna shoot myself because i'm used to faster right but they and you cannot go against the culture of a country you need to kind of respect them and be patient right so i was like sure work but then sometimes i was watching at the clock and we only had like 45 minutes to do a whole scene so i would go like let's go let's go let's go let's go and i didn't cut the camera so i knew my shot so i go like let's do there now go fast go again better la la la la and i go go go and i can take like shoot and a scene with all the shots i want

In 45 minutes fast, but I try not to arrive to that if possible. So Latam has a way to be because it's always about how you manage the budget more than anything else, more than the shot you want or how does it look. It's about how am I going to be smart with the no money I have to do this. Whereas, for example, a production like Perry Mason, like. Great. First of all, in the States, there is an industry and it's so big that everyone is very conscious that you need to give a good impression because then people is going to recommend you, right?

So everyone's arrived half an hour early, they're always like quiet on time. And then it's the idea says this thing takes two hours. It's because it takes two hours. Like you're not going to take longer and you're right. going to take less. You're going to take exactly what the idea says because it's a perfect oil machine that works amazingly. So for example, in the state, I'm very relapsed. I'm like, yeah, thank you guys because that machine is perfect. So you don't need to push because they have the money, they have the scripts, they have like the crew is super experienced. Whereas here in Latam,

Because it's so intense, what usually happens in people in their 40s says, you know what, I'm not, I'm not going to do this anymore. They pay it's not enough. So you usually have young crew. So they are in experience, they are unfocused, and you need to be like, hey, come on, like, cheer everyone, do this. So it's very different. Like in Latam, you're a producer, a director, and an AD, all in one. because everyone asks you what do why are we going to do whereas in the state like the DP already

knows like everyone knows no one is asking you like where do I put this where so it's it depends on who you have in front of you how you relate to your crew and to the set because different sets needs different types of yourself you know there as this you know this podcast is like half entertaining, half educational and probably two-thirds annoying because of me. But I gotten better at not interrupting people. The first few was like, ooh, let's chat. We're like, dude, I don't fucking care what you have to say. But on the educational side of things, you know, having those younger crews especially,

what are some skills that maybe you see those younger crews lacking that maybe people should whether they'd be soft skills or hard skills, but things that you like to see in a younger crew member. Yes. Again, it's very different Latam than the state. Because in Latam, we do not have an industry. And because our countries are smaller, everyone knows everyone. So when you're in the set,

this person is going to be the boyfriend of this other person. And this one is married to this other person. So no one is scared of losing a job. for the future. I don't mean right on the spot. So they are not focused and they are not concentrated enough in the state. I don't think that happens because it's such a big industry and the competition is so high that if you're not on top of your game and you're always focused, then you're never going to work again. So on one side is always being focused. always be, like, you can detect when young people is going to do good because they're hungry to help, to be there, to listen. Like, it's an attitude, like, isn't there, even in the way they look at you or they ask a question or they're like, hey, sorry, can I ask you this or do you need this or that? Like, you know who is going to have a good career because there is a passion? And a way to relate on set, that you're like, oh, this person is, like, is talented.

Like, you can tell that that person is going to do good. But I think it's a predisposition to work. Yeah. You know, like a hunger. They need to stay hungry. Like, don't be annoying, but there is something in the way they relate to said and how attentive they are to things that it gets notice, you know? Like that energy, you feel it and you appreciate it when it's close to you.

Yeah, it's the, you know, I had like a few thoughts at once, but I don't want to be like mean to certain people. But like, you know, you'll get someone from a very prestigious film school who can walk on set and be like, I know exactly what I'm doing. And then they don't. They never do. And it doesn't matter what film school, you went to a good one, a bad one. Like, set is so much different than the academic explanation of what it is. Because it's so, as you're saying, it's a lot more personal than those hard skills. Yes, it has a lot to do with diplomacy, in a sense, and relationships and enthusiasm.

Because I think most of the people that does film, especially in Latam, because we don't get paid as good as in the state. So most people do it out of law. So you can sense when someone is connected with passion through their craft, that in Latam is always the case. Because you do it because you love it or else you won't do it. But maybe in the States, it's easier to have people that are just going to the office, you know, sir. Right. And that way to relate, it also still, it's received different, you know. Yeah.

Well, hopefully the people that are just going to the office, quote unquote, at least aren't freaking out, which shares, you know, kind of cool cucumbers. All the grips are always very chill until they're not. Yeah. I think the groups are going to the office, but they love the office. Like, when I said they're going to the office, I mean they're doing a job that it's like, oh, yes, this pays the bills. But it's more than that. And of course, a lot of people is very professional and cool and go to the office because it's our job. But the passion, it's there.

Even though they are like in their 60s, you can tell, like they want to do the perfect shot. they want to like every single thing they do it translates passionate well and to your point like i think it's very easy to talk about um passion and you know people saying oh you'll never work a day in your life if you love your job when it comes to filmmaking or woodworking or photography or painting or any of these more um inherently artistic forms but i think that passion this is just for anyone listening who's not a filmmaker like that passion can be anything you know it can be chefs maybe is a bad example because that's creative again but there are non-creative i'm sure there's a there's an accountant out there who just loves like dialing in people's finances and like it brings them a ton of joy

and that's like the perfect job for them and and that's uh as you were saying you know it's a it's a job but it's applaudable to be doing that job you know there's no there's no shame in the game as it were no no not only creating jobs need passion I think all the jobs in passion yeah I did want to talk obviously more about Jerry Mason because that's what you're here to talk about but I had actually not seen the show yet so but I did I watched your episodes just to get kind of and uh, it looks really cool, so I'll have to go back and watch the show. But I did want to talk about, um, you know, I had read somewhere that, that, uh, well, the show is very kind of noir, neo-noirish, but I kind of wanted to know your approach to taking those sort of maybe

noir tropes and also the look. I love the look at the show. Uh, so we'll get to that in a second, but, uh, the sort of balancing the noir and the modern, because it's not, it's not, I mean, this is more look, but like, it's not a show that inherently screams 30s or 40s or whatever. But, you know, the costume design, obviously, the production design, the music especially really evokes that feeling without, you know, putting a film grain filter, you know, over everything to be so garish about it, you know. Yeah. So what is the question?

Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's the other thing. My other problem is sometimes I'll just ramble. But I was going to ask, what was your approach to creating that noir aesthetic and balancing it with the modern? Because you could have gone, like, maybe not because the show already exists, but, you know, black and white, hard windows slashes the whole thing. And it's not that. Yeah. Yes, you do have a point that the show already exists.

And also the showrunners, as they always said, they wanted to let the shine come in because season one was a bit too dark. That was the impression of their producers, right? So they wanted to make it lighter. Of course, it's noir, but they didn't want to go, for example, as far as use a batch angle in a shot. But it's very noir. But I do love to research before, like, I do anything, and I'm thinking about how to shoot. So I did research a lot of raw films, a lot of films from the time. And I look at pictures of the era, I look at photographers that I like,

and look at paintings that I like. And then I let the script talk to me in a sense because I like, I think we all want to be connected to the characters. And for example, episode five was very much about, like, how they face more of unethical questions and they need to make a decision. And that makes me want to be close to them, like physically close to them with the camera. Wide closes. In episode five, I went like close with the camera.

So like if I will do like a close up, it will be with a wide lens, but I will be physically close instead of a long lens from far away. It was more than approach. So, and also, of course, that show needs to have a scope, need to have, like, it's big, right? You see the city, you see like this big, white shot or these connecting shots between the scene. So I spent a long, long time thinking about, like, the shots that I need and all of that. And then I like to, I create even like a folder with reference of each single industry. And then I ask the production designer for the floor plans.

And I draw how I think I would like everything to move. And then I discuss, of course, with the DP because they have also amazing ideas. And sometimes they say, oh, I see your point, but I will do something. like this other thing, or maybe they say, this is more perimason than these. So all that is helpful and it's a collaboration. You know, it's very collaborative, especially the DP, you know, because it's someone that knows the visual style of the show so profoundly that this conversation is going to occur.

But for me, when I read a script, some reference come right away to my mind in the scenes because I like the cinema that is always conversing with cinema and then I research like particular stuff for each scene and then I talk to the DP and we go through the shots and we re-re-do it and then when you are on set sometimes you toss all that out and you do something new because the actor says oh I want to move this way or this other way and you're like okay so now we were gonna shoot it like this and but you are prepared enough to toss everything and know how to manage your set without falling behind.

Yeah. I was wondering if you could, because I'm a DP, and technically this is a cinematography podcast on most days, what was your relationship like? Because you had two, you had two separate DPs, right, for five and eight. What was your relationship like with those two and how were their approaches different and yet the same? They were very different, but they arrived to the same result, which was very interesting. Because, for example, I'll do one example.

In court, Elliot Rocket, who is the director of BP of Episode 5, I had all my camera angles draw, like, I draw everything in different colors, and he's like, okay, we're going to do everything from this side to that, from white to small, and then we change, we do the other side, and then we do lateral, for example. And he was, like, he would see my, drawings and he will say, okay, so we're going to do this three camera position and then this and then this. And then that's the way we've approached with Elliot.

But with Darren Tierman, who is the D.P. of episode eight, he didn't like that because she will look at my drawings and he will say, I'm going to put this cover here, this here and this here because I don't want these lights interfering in this face. So it was, that was on his mind. because I will say, Darren, these are the shots, these are my drawings. He will look and say, okay, and he will position the three cameras as he's so fit for his lighting. And both achieved great result, but it was a different approach to how to position the cameras on the set and how to achieve all the shots I wanted in a day, you know? Right. Yeah, the wide, close, close is pretty classic.

But I think the, so did on episode eight, were you deploying more cameras than in five? No. Okay. We have usually two cameras and for, for the scenes of the court, three. And some scenes that had a lot of extra three, mostly court. The rest of the time, they were always two. Yeah.

The, man, I'm jumping all around in my head, because I literally just watched the episodes. Like the color and the lighting, obviously color, a bit of the colorist, but also the production designer. There's a wonderful warm tones and blues and greens, especially in like, whoever's like home office it was and stuff. And like, very, very pretty show. But how did they, they search for that warmth.

Because in you see season one, it's very dark. All the walls are dark. So it's a different contrast and now they went with these more warm colors on the walls. So it creates a different feeling, you know? Yeah. How did, between the two DPs, was there a change in lighting approach as well or mostly just camera placement? Probably, yes. But I mean, everything looks like it's just lit by the sun, but, you know, that's the mark of a good D.P.

this is why I'm telling you like probably yes but I because when they're planning their shots I'm doing something else I was not that aware what exactly they were doing I was just saw the result there and they were the same show and because they see the camera placement differently I'm sure they see the placing of the lights different I'm sure yeah

Um, I had read that, and this probably shouldn't, well, they probably will surprise people, but like, uh, there's a lot of VFX in this show. Yes. But you wouldn't know it because it's not, uh, you know, dinosaurs and explosions. Right. Um, can you walk me through kind of what those VFX shots were and how you land for those and manage those? Yes. In episode five, for example, the stadium that opens the episode, of course, it's a full stadium. So what we did is when they look, there is a shot from behind them that it comes from up and behind them.

And you see like they have built stadium. So for that, they place a green screen in front of them. so they could, you know, like do this and then construct the rest. But when we look the opposite way, when they are down on the stadium on the grass, like the production designer put like dirt and he built like this half-constructed stadium as a set, and then they retouch a lot of like screens and little things that were on the back that of course they could not take out that was

afterwards but they were always aiming for the more the real stuff you know like we did not use that many green screen to be honest like mostly

it was a good very very smart scouting because of episode five I remember that stadium And I don't remember, I remember like a street at night outside like this hotel in the African-American neighborhood that us goes to. I remember one shot that we put very far away, we placed very far away a green screen, so they might have retouched like a background building or for another scene that is in a Cassivo. I remember we had like buildings, but I was mindful of not touching them with the heads of the characters.

Or when we did Olvera Street, of course, in the background, we also had a green screen because we shot it right in front of Vera Street, and we created again the Keith. Hanenham, that is the production designer, created this great of Vare Street. But in the background, we saw, I think, I don't remember if we were. It's called the 101, but one of a highway. So they placed that the greenest. The 101 or the 405. Yeah.

And they built a city hall, for example, in the background. That is very, you almost, you cannot notice it's post-production. I think episode five were those like little places. And episode eight. Hello Yes There is a shot A reverse shot on City Hall

That we see Paul and Perry talking And Della He's back He's back there talking to the press And of course what you see that way It's not an old building And they place Like an old building

Over there But I just think we did more green screen For episode 8 That I remember sure that just made me think of two things one is city hall the LA library sorry is the is the courthouse the LA library no is the city hall oh oh sorry okay you said that and then my brain immediately went I think it's the library it looks a lot like

the downtown library but I guess all that architecture I'm really I'm really trying getting more interested in like old LA architecture because uh L.A. is such a weird mishmash of... Yes. When I was there, I lived in New York and, you know, like, when I was young, so I was like, hey, I don't like L.A. and I always visited, like, small, like, another amount of time. Like, and now that I stay long, long, and I research the history of it, and I remember driving around with my wife in the neighborhood to understand where the story takes place.

I was amazed and I started deeply loving me. You know, I was like, wow, this is so insanely and insane and beautiful. Yeah, it's really, you do have to become kind of an architect. No, sorry, archaeologist. Yes. If you want to be like a, if you want to call L.A. your home, you really do have to start becoming a forensic anthropologist and an archaeologist just to learn about. Because, you know, all these beautiful buildings from the Art Deco era are just,

just buried underneath billboards and skyscrapers, you know, except for the skyscrapers that were made back then. But my other question was going to be, what was your discussions like with, I guess with those few VFX shot, maybe it wasn't as big a deal, but your discussions with the VFX supervisor, because I've heard, you know, horror stories over a director just comes in.

It goes like, we'll throw a green screen up. I love VFX and because in commercials, you do it a lot. I know the more you plan it together, the BFX people, the better the result. So I like to plan really ahead and listening to them and say, like, this is what's going to happen. And don't just you do what they know, it's better. So it was very easy. But because I like to involve them from an early start.

Did how much, uh, sort of leeway were you given? Because you're coming into a show that's already, you know, you're doing the finale too, which is pretty, uh, it's a, that's a nice thing, you know, thing for them to trust you with. Um, how much leeway were you given versus like, oh, this is peri me, you know, you're handed a look book basically or whatever, you know, a show Bible. Um, how much. We did not, we were not handled a show book. Of course, I. I studied very much season one, and then I study all the dailies of episode one, two, three, four. And I went to the sets of the directors of episode one, two, and three, four, because I liked to see. I wanted to see how the crew was working, how they were approaching scenes. And they gave you a lot of freedom. Like, they are very, like, the showrunners and Tim Downey are very generous and open to collaboration. with the directors, so they are not at all. Like, of course, sometimes they say,

A, be mindful of this or that, like maybe, like I don't know, like, remember we need a lot of shots of the jewelry, like they are gonna help you if they think something is not working, but- So it ties into the other episodes. Yeah, but no, I, I don't know, like I think all the directors were really good, Like I love, and they were really generous, like, because I did five and eight,

I also went to the set of Nina, for example, like six and seven, and I was trying to see what she was doing with the episodes to have always a conversation with all the episodes. And I, I shot a lot of, like, some scenes of episode one and episode two as well. So, I don't know, it was, and also the repeat, they really, really know the style of a show. So if they tell you, no, this is too much, or this is not part of the show, they know as well. So I think, as I said, and because this crew was so amazingly talented, like, these people, I was, like, in awe of all of them. Like, it was a lot of trust and collaboration, to be honest. Yeah.

I, uh, we're starting to come up on time here. I want to be mindful of your time. But I did want to ask kind of going back. to the beginning of this conversation. Well, you don't need the whole backstory. I wanted to ask about the importance of film festivals for a filmmaker, especially one that's not just starting out, obviously, but a young, early in their career. Very important.

How important are film festivals and why? It's very important. And I always say to my younger friends or filmmakers that ask for advice, I said, try to do a really, really good short film that shows your voice. You need to find your voice, your visual style that doesn't look anything like anyone else. Because if you do good with one short film, that will propel and make people trust you to do a feature film. And then if your feature films are good and you win awards and you go to good festivals, then they will hire you for TV. So it's like a place in festivals is a place where they're eager.

to find new voices, they will support you if they see something in you that they like. So you create also a community with that festival and the filmmakers you start meeting because then all the people that is at the same time in the festival becomes your friend. And for example, I met Antonio Campos before he did his first feature film. like in a festival that we're both pitching our films and that happened with me and a lot of other filmmakers that today are very accomplished

and it's nice because they become your friends and your group and you can always go back to them and say hey what do you think of this or that because you knew each other in a very early moment of the career and they will always help you And so, and also, what's the name of the people, like the programmers or even the festival? Then there is, when you go to a festival, it's only people that love film.

So it's very beautiful, like going to Disney for a filmmaker. Yeah. And you're going to make contacts that can make your films better. So, like, it's important to focus in a short film. that shows you your voice, what are your interest, what kind of stories you want to tell and how you're going to tell that story

that is different to the rest because that opens doors always. Especially nobody's. The market, the industry is more open for any type of different people. Yeah. So why would you want, I know the answer to this question.

Why would you want to focus on making a short film instead of doing a lot of jobs and putting together a cool reel. When you say a lot of jobs, because what kind of jobs? Just to be able to make a reel. Like, why are basically,

why focus on a short film instead of trying to take on any kind of commercial film, whatever, to make or real? Or even, I saw one guy, smart idea, it got him certain work, but he invented a reel. He was a DP and he just went off and shot only shots for the reel.

There was no project attached to them. Well, I think it depends on what is your, like what is your lane. But I think in the case of a director, like, and if you also write your stuff, it shows you as an artist, like a short term. If you just do a job for other person, like a commercial, yes, it shows you have like a an eye for things or a visual style. But that is you attending a client. So it's not you, you, it's not your voice.

It's your voice for someone else. So a short film allows you to really, really show your voice, your interest, your ethical look on life, the questions that are interesting for you, the stories that you love. And this is what producers are looking for, these new voices. Yeah, what's funny is I went to Arizona State, which I don't know if you know anything about the American University

system, but known as a huge party school, which was a lot of fun from what I remember. And the funny thing was the film school was couched in ethics-based filmmaking and all the various things that that means, you know, and it did have a lot to do with like, what are you saying, not only what are you saying with the script, but what are you saying by the jobs you take the people you hire, the people you don't hire, you know, all these various things. So I'm interesting to hear you say that. But I'm going to let you go here because we're times up. But I end every podcast with the same two questions. And I've been entering so many TV people that this one doesn't quite make sense. But here we go. We're sticking with it. If you were to program

a double feature with Perry Mason and another show or a movie, Maybe your episode, but, you know, in general, what would that other show or movie be? Wow. How difficult, Your question. No, this is the next one's worst. That's insane, but I can think of two movies that I think it can go well with Perry Mason this season, Sunset Boulevard. And also a Carolead movie that I completely forgot. the name because I have a very bad memory.

So when you ask me these specific things, I'm like, what? I'm a name of story, you know, but let's say Sunset Boulevard because the other, I'm not going to remember the other name. People can Google it. It's a noir, like one of the biggest noir in the history of cinema. Don't know any. No. Wow.

I just picked one. I don't even know who's in it. It worked for me at a trivia the other week. I just have the criteria and I've watched it yet, but I have the criteria. I don't know if, oh, third man. Third man. Third man or odd man out because they have an English similar, similar names. It's one of those two, but one of the man of Karurik.

There you go. Second question, this one's going to be harder. A lot of times on podcast, I've seen people ask, oh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? So being a contrarian, I want to know what's the worst. piece of advice you've ever gotten. The worst piece of advice, I do not remember. Or maybe the worst piece of advice you've seen given. All the advice I get, I have the lad to always be able to call

really smart, talented people for advice. So their advices are good. Sometimes I don't listen to them and I do the opposite. That's my problem. That's when I go wrong, but they always give me proper advice to. be honest. I've had a few people go like, oh, what's yours asking me? And I'm like, oh, I can't remember because I, for the longest time, or the first 25 years of my life, I just wouldn't listen. I'd be like, oh, that sounds like a good idea. I'm going to go try my thing. And sometimes

my thing would work, but not often. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me. I'd love to have you back on next time you're able to share what you're doing, especially after, you know, whatever film you're prepping right now. Sure. I'll be happy. Awesome. Thanks. Well, I'll let you go. Take care. You too. Have a good weekend. You too. Oh, that's right. It's the weekend. Yes.

Bye. Bye-bye. Frame and reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the epitart mapbox logo was designed by Nate true acts of Trueax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.