Frame & Reference Podcast - 98: "BEEF" DP Larkin Seiple

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

On this episode, Kenny talks with cinematographer Larkin Seiple about the Netflix series "BEEF." Enjoy the episode! Follow Kenny on Twitter ⁠@kwmcmillan⁠ and give him some feed back on the show! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠Filmtools.com⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we have our first returning guest, Larkin-Syple, DP of the Netflix show Beef. It's a great one, and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. a lot of changes from since the last time I spoke to you with the everything everywhere because I remember every conversation I had after you they were like I just saw this movie was fucking cool I can't wait for other people to see it and I was like that's fascinating I also saw that I don't really want to I don't want to hit you with like how has life been since then I am interesting question um it's I don't it's I don't award awards are weird and

um you know like my favorite movie the year was after sun um sure and you know i don't know how much they truly change things because for me like i'm i'm looking for really you know interesting and unique directors and i feel like you know they'll be attracted to your work whether you win an award or not like i feel like for me like in terms of like collaborators reaching out and for new projects i feel like people will go to you based on your body of work outside of any awards i'm not sure how much awards actually affects like technicians to be honest. Right.

It'd be nice for like maybe commercials, things like that where like people hiring you don't understand why they're hiring you necessarily. Right. But they can happen to that thing. You know, go look at that. But yeah, but in terms of like movies and things like that, I think, you know, I would have been reached out regardless. Or not.

But yeah, no, it's great. It's the highest honor you can get. I never thought it was going to happen. We were all pretty shocked about it. So it does feel, I mean, just from. my perspective interviewing other dPs there there was a lot of talk about how oh maybe Hollywood will take this hint that like doing unique personal stories is better than stories that attempt to appease every demographic that you can possibly come up with um even though

i do feel that film was a pretty universal story but it was very specific you know um but all yeah all the dPs i would not probably go back and listen to a whole ton of them because There's maybe just a dive embarrassment because I think it's maybe a little too much congratulating. But, yeah, really, really well done on that, man. I'm proud of you. Thanks. And then he went off and did gaslit, which was fucking rad too. Yeah, that was my first real TV show.

That was a hoot. I wasn't, that was like a much bigger show than I had done doing eight hours of TV. But it was, you know, I had a great connection of the director, Matt Ross. We just, we had a great time making it, which is, you know, some shows you are painful to make and some are pleasant. And that one was just kind of, you know, it's in the 70s. It's kind of silly and dark. We just kind of had a great time and the actors were wonderful. So it was a great experience kind of dipping my toes in the TV and actually like doing it and having sets on the back lot and the whole, the whole shebang.

Yeah. Were there any kind of surprises or lessons that you learned kind of switching from television and commercials and music video, or sorry, and commercials and music videos into television? Well, I mean, with films, you know, films are sacred and every scene is wildly important and else it shouldn't be in the movie. You don't want to waste people's time. So you're really thoughtful about the shot structure.

And with TV, that is present, but you're also making a ton of images and creating a ton of scenes. And so what I feel like what happens is you start to realize that the filmmaking is important, But the performance is almost more important in television in a way. I know it sounds silly I know a few DPs have said that that like television is all performance and then movies is like all silent like you could do a whole movie in silence like you get to be a filmmaker you get to make bold choices the audience is using it as like a you know it's this much it's much shorter read in a way

You know I almost think of it like a short story is to me a feature where it's like this bold choice at these big things and a TV show can be closer to a novel where you start to infer things and you just, you know, the plot becomes a much bigger part of it. So with Gaslight, we ended up really enjoying the performances and we changed and we went from like one camera to two and then the three and then we started letting the actors improvise. And so that changed how we shot it. You know, we would make bold swings for certain scenes, but a lot of times we just kind of let the actors do their thing. It wasn't like we were just handheld and grabbing it, but we tried to find a way to let them do it because they were all kind of firing on all cylinders. They were they were great and they would change it up and they would play with each other and that was really

exciting to kind of focus on just like capturing performance and less about like dramatic camera moves and what does the you know what does the headroom say about the actor and the scene and things like that we kind of got to let go yeah do you find that to be um this is a stupid question but more relaxing in us in some way or is it's the same amount of stress i mean it's it's you know well on that type of pace to you're shooting for a hundred days and eight hours of stuff, you want to find a way to enjoy your work and not be stressed. And also, gas looks like a, you know, it's a black comedy. So it's dark and funny.

And so it's, it's different. Things are less sacred or precious. And so you kind of let go to a degree. We also would like really beautiful sets. I feel like anywhere, anytime you're shooting and you have great locations, your job is so much easier because you can, you don't mind pointing the camera around or like you can find frames anywhere. and the lighting can be you know incorporated into it um that's what really gives you the freedom

is a great set yeah i think it was fun yeah we we've every other episode of this podcast with someone that brings up how important the production designer is and how they're the dp's best friend because locations and sets uh yeah or what your filming needs to be good and that is the definition of you know to me cinematography of half the time is a great location you should kill yourself on location scouts because if you get a bad location then you're you're you're already losing you know it's an uphill battle at that point i feel like you need to get invested early you know also i mean the movies that win best cinematography are all these amazing locations you know like epic war battles and crazy

places or like you know sunsets in new zealand things like that like it's like that's what people think of um and those are the things you have to find they don't think of you know the close-ups you let in like the small bear room. Yeah, yeah, yes. Are you watching anything you like right now? Um, I mean, I kind of like go in a polar opposite direction. And it turns out I find shows that are like, I forget, we're watching Party Down. Oh, sure.

The remake, the reboot, or not the reboot, the new season, because I find it's just a fun release. And it's also so L.A. It's just kind of funny to like see a modern take on L.A. politics and the film, industry yeah that's a good one mild cinematography in there yeah i mean it's fine it works it's fun you know i don't think about how they execute it because you're just again following these these comedians doing their thing yeah the uh right now the tvs on here has just been absolutely stuck on bravo so i i know way too much about the housewives i've heard the same stinger a thousand times.

Brutal. So I kind of wanted to compare, if you will, gaslit with beef because it is, they're both naturally, they both look very natural, but gaslit does seem to be a little more heightened. That's not like an art sea way, but just like a little more. massaged in some way. What were your approaches to the lighting in either show? Well, it's funny. Gaslit's heightened because we built a lot that was reminiscent of the film stock back then, which was like a hundred speed and much higher contrast. So naturally, you're going to have a punchier image just off the bat. And we also staged a lot of our scenes around windows and, you know, outside we had Sykes. So there's a lot more blow.

out. It was just one for more of a garish look, something a lot punchier and less controlled in a way just to kind of, you know, help transport you back there and make it feel less stagey. With beef, you know, we're actually going much more for realism in terms of like this is where the actors really live. We used much cleaner optics and we ended up building a lot that was based on overexposure, you know, where you have an image. it's so bright, you print it down, so you get cleaner blacks and, like, you know, nicer highlights, whereas a gaslet was a bit more about kind of lifting the shadows and, like, an under-exposed take on things.

And so, yeah, I mean, beef, it's funny. I didn't go into beef thinking it was kind of be slick, and I think even Sunny was surprised towards the imagery of it, but something about that show just felt, I don't know, I felt like this funny heightened drama to a show that's actually really mundane, you know. I mean, nothing, you know, nothing's too crazy in beef, besides maybe episode nine and 10, but everything else is real places and real people. And so giving it something of like a visual punch, I think, kind of helped heighten the, you know, the importance or the weight on these small decisions.

Yeah. When you say that the, the Lut was built on overexposed, you mean like you built in a negative, let's say, stop so that you would shoot brighter? viewing that or you that's natural what i do now in general of all of my luts is like kind of we have like uh the luts forced me to expose brighter so it's like a hungry lot if you will it needs more lights so that way right it's more just because i like to make things moody and that way i'm kind of protecting myself by having more in the shadows um but then in the in the grade we were we were playing with kind of um there's like a scene of danny and his brother paul working out working out

And we were just looking at a funny reference. And I was like, well, let's take a look at Top Gun. There's, you know, that volleyball sequence. And I just kind of loved how kind of Southern California it felt this really bright, hot sun is really crisp blacks. And we just looked at an overexposure lot, which does that. You can apply it. There's also an under exposure to let, which will kind of lift the shadows and give you that feeling. Right.

And that's like something you can apply to any lot that was built based on like the, film science of like what you did photochemically to it. And so that we ended up really liking it, which is funny because, you know, we didn't expect it to be that type of look right off the bat. Yeah. I've seen you mention a few times emulating certain emulations or a fucking, what do you call them?

Film stock. Well, I was trying to, emotions. There we go. Jesus Christ. But are you kind of like a film stock nerd in that way in the way that. in the way that, you know, Steve Yedlin seems to be? Kind of.

It's more about, you know, as getting wildly specific about it, no, but it's going back to like some part of Gaslit was trying to remove cyan. That was a big part of it. There was like a cobalt, dark blue in the shadows back then. And so we built that into the look. And then we saw that the skin tones, you know, were a bit orangier and they had like a certain patina that we were trying to recreate. And with beef, we wanted something.

that was, I think, we just wanted something that felt American because it's very much a show about an American dilemma for some reason. Capitalism is a big part of it. Yeah. And so we started trying to find a lot that really pushed skin tones. So you had like, you could, for me, I love getting ruddy skin tone because I think you start at red and you kind of taper off into oranges and yellows and things like that. And that's what we started with.

But we also wanted to make sure that the other colors would still. pop. I was trying to avoid a lot that actually felt pushed. That was the other thing with beef. There's not a lot of, it's kind of clean in a way. We're not trying to force colors into the shadows and into the highlights. We wanted it to feel kind of rich, but also kind of real. Like I didn't want it to feel too affected. It's more of the contrast in beef is what I think stands out. Punchy. Yeah, I guess that brings me to a different questions we'll get back to that um it definitely feels i think you know that the compliment every dp wants to hear it doesn't look lit at all but it still um looks incredibly natural and i

was wondering kind of what especially in the exteriors but uh what were your um sort of how are you approaching the lighting to the show as a whole but those exteriors look really nice um well i don't think we lit any exteriors on beef really If we did any, that's what I'm saying. It's like, I want to know how you got there because you could just point to camera at something. It wouldn't look that nice. Yeah, I have a hard time lighting exterior just because it feels like, you know, once you, you know, it's like if you give a mouse of cookie, it's like, well, it's, you know, we'll diffuse this. Oh, I need to punch it up now.

And then like, oh, the background is too bright. So now we've got to make it brighter. Then you need to bring in fill because the key's too strong now. And it's just, I feel like, I don't know, I just never liked how that looked. I think the most we would do is doing on like a circular bounce to try to give someone an eye light. And Stephen, you know, also there's like a nice sense

of realism that comes with letting hard sun actually hit the actors. And then you spend most of your time with the AD just trying to figure out how to schedule around the sun so that they're backlit when you want them to be, which is most of the time. So you don't have to deal with shadow issues. Right.

But yeah, no, we didn't really do much. Also, Allie has crazy glasses on. So lighting her was a huge ordeal. And a lot of times, we just kind of tried to light the space in a manner that she would have a decent key. Because, yeah, anytime I got close to something, you'd see it right in there. And you think we even still time and post trying to remove reflections from our glasses. I mean, they were great glasses, but we chose ones that were just like, you saw everything. It was, it was a bad choice technically, but a great choice creatively.

Yeah, I'm doing a lot more corporate videos these days. and every every interview there's a guy with glasses just like hey bud just i can see my keynote panel right in your fucking face um but going back to the look you said you didn't build any color contrast into the lut and i was wondering uh how like i'm specifically thinking i can't remember which episode it is but uh interior kind of night there's a great color contrast in the lighting you did some really good you know like cool light and warm light And I was wondering how you were getting those, like, were those, you know, LEDs that were just set to white-balanced differences that were kind of brought out in the grade, or were those, like, colored in the way, gels? Is that in terms of, like, interiors or exteriors?

Interiors, yeah. Well, usually, I mean, Stephen's apartment, and we kind of tried to have every type of practical from fluorescence to, like, crappy CFL bulbs to tungsten bulbs. And so there's always, like, a mix of temperature in there. and then usually we'd bounce something in the ceiling if we wanted to if we did want to affect the shadows in camera we would we would bounce a color into the ceiling and something cooler to shift it um and then uh for ali's place you know it's very warm in general and i kind of we kind of her place is much more monochromatic so one color tends to dominate in most of the scenes because her world is kind of beige and flat and kind of soulless and you know uh danny's world is is kind of cluttered and filled of too much stuff and so there was never like a perfect balance in between one's kind of boring and one's kind of too much but so those were all practicals and those aren't like LED it's generally practicals um and then you know for stephen we would sort of sneak in like a tighten rig to the ceiling just to give him an edge or pop him or a lot of times um we would have

these little um forget there's these little LEDs that you can get like a half dome on top of for an eye light and we would kind of hide those behind counters or on chair aperture or rosco we called the baked alaska it's the soft dome that's wobbly um i think that's the aperture mc but i think it's the aperture um we used we used to use the next lights um to do that a lot but they were like what the color fidelity wasn't as good i'm blinking on them i there's like a different name for them on every set but those those workhorse and then you know for if we scenes if they were in like an open area we would line up like some skinny light mats in like a long row so you kind of had a very long

even key that you wouldn't feel if they were just kind of walk in and out of it as opposed to like walking into a spot of light right those little light you know kino makes one now keno's LEDs are stupid accurate those things are great but uh everyone's making like a nice thin panel that you can basically tape to a ceiling if you need it's i'm thoroughly enjoying that uh change in direction yeah thinner. Thinner is better. We made homemade ones for a long time with my Gaffer mat.

We called them mattie pads and they could go anywhere. But the color fidelity wasn't great. And it was just homemade, you know, light ribbon and like a shift box. And now everyone's using, you know, like the light mats or whatever. The spectrum's a full range of color now. Yeah. I saw on an interview that you guys shot, what, the LF with signature primes. Uh-huh.

And the reasoning that you had mentioned in that interview was that, you know, starting with a sharper image and that you're able to degrade it and pose as opposed to vintage lenses, which give you a inherent character that you can not really time out, right? Yeah, it was it was also our, we wanted to be close to the actors on wider lenses and we didn't like the characteristics that came with vintage lenses at that focal length. Like they were too warpy and they were a little too funky and they were a little too funky and they felt too. affected and the part of this show was trying to, you know, be subtle and kind of remove a lot of the style, if that makes sense in terms of like the camera and the lenses and it just felt nice. And also we were in a lot of tight spaces and I hate, you know, like 10, I'm starting to hate warped walls and lines that bends. And it just felt nice to have a good workhorse of a lens to get in there and do it. And also like, you know, you don't have that many vintage lenses when

you're shooting large format either you know there's a world if we had shot super 35 i may have done it on super speeds which i think are a nice balance of a little bit of of edge or or a funk with us still a good sharp image yeah i heard uh because i'm a good researcher i heard a different interview uh that you had mentioned shooting the lf but then you were using the crop sensor were you not doing that then no we were so we i mean i i don't i love i love large format photography but I feel like that's very specific to projects. It's like a very powerful tool that should be used intentionally. And I feel like just using it willy-nilly is too much.

I think we have all these great sets and great locations. And I'm trying to work with minimal light levels as well. So I'm not trying to bring in a bunch of lights. And so I like to shoot around like a 2-8. And then 2-8 at large format is just very shallow for me. I don't like it. I want to see a little bit more. I'm not trying to see the world.

So we crop the sensor into the 4K minimum requirements for streamers. So just to get back a little more depth of feel and to make the lenses feel a little less dramatic. Got see. My only time we use the actual full sensor is the opening scene of Stephen. And at the like... Yeah. Just him really isolated.

And so the sound design could do its thing and you could really focus on him kind of having a bad day. Yeah. Yeah. But oh, so, but you won't need the full frame lenses so that you could use them in something like that. Well, the, the cropped in 4K wouldn't have worked with super speed. So we still had to stick with those full frame lenses. Yeah, gotcha.

I mean, they're fucking great lenses. I was at Cinegear and I was getting a tour of all their lineup. And like some of them I didn't even know about, but those things will always be top notch. No, they're great. And you can do a lot in post to take the edge off with them now and to make the audience. I'm not trying to make it funky. just trying and someone with them to think about, you know, the pores on the actor's face or what have you. You know, I want them to just kind of forget about the photography so that they

can just see what's, you know, what they're, you know, see the performance. And so that we were able to kind of knock it down a little bit so it didn't feel pristine. Yeah. I, uh, I did want to talk about, uh, your remote grading situation because I just started working with a company called Evercast, which you may have used their stuff before. Uh, and they have like a colored pipeline that's accurate you know 10-bit 444 whatever so now I'm trying to learn more about remote grading and I heard you did that on this show yeah I did remote grading for um everything everywhere for gasoline and for beef um I do I mean I do it all just from my garage it's um Alex Bickle who owns color collective in New York and then Alex Mendes is their one of their TV colorists

who I do the bulk of the show with and so yeah it's they you know for the everything everywhere we had whatever a magic box that came in that had to be cabled and that was for um i think we did it in hdr but now they finally i believe have hdr streaming capabilities which is just like an app you can use on apple tv um right i get a very specific tv from lg and then they have b1 yeah there's like hidden menus that you that you can access that can set you can push the television to do things that you can't normally do. And then I just took it to Technicolor and had them calibrate it. But it was, I loved it, you know, especially because they're in New York time, you know,

they're ready to go at 9 a.m. so I can wake up at 6 and, like, you know, chuck in three hours before I have to go to work. Yeah. Was there any specific tools besides the hardware that helped you do that? Or were you just kind of like zooming in and they had a pipeline to your TV? No, I mean, for, so for beef, it was just an app. You know, you would get the app going, you turn on Apple TV, and boom, you're there. They just say, yeah.

I'm very happy about that. Yeah, they would do that, and then sometimes I would check it on the iPad to make sure. Like, the iPad is actually the most accurate way of doing it because it's the device and it won't look any different based on whatever weird settings could potentially still be on your TV or something that's shifted. Sure. So it would trade on there, and then I would double check the iPad. You know, most remote coloring still has an issue with shadows, like the certain, at a certain point, the shadow, you know, the shadow detail is hard to make, uh, match what's, what the colorist is seeing, especially if you're playing in the mud.

Right. Right. Because yeah, um, I've been interested in the idea of grading on an OLED or like a micro, I think my, my grading is like a micro LED or something, but I was doing a music video and the person, I just mentioned. this in a different interview, but the person was like, oh, it looks different than on my laptop. And I was like, well, my screen's calibrated and your laptop is old. Laptops are terrible. Like, yeah. So bad. That's because the red channel is messed up. Real bad.

Thank you for saying that. I'm going to clip that and send it to them because they're like, we need to, it's the skin tones are still too red. And I'm like, I guarantee you they're not. And then they said the worst thing in the world, which was, uh, well, what if we just calip? what if we just because everyone has a MacBook, what if we grade it so it looks correct on my MacBook? And I was like, that sounds like a good idea, but trust me, it's not. Yeah, that's why we, it's why we usually kick out stills and look at them on our iPhones or on our iPads. That's the most neutral way to look at it, you know, because everyone, something's always a little

different. And then you can just be like, we'll take a look at this. So that's what I've done before. I've literally had to like put my iPad or phone next to my laptop, be like, oh, the skin is totally normal. And it just insane on my, my, like, I'm just insane on my, my, on my Mac. That's great. I didn't know specifically the red channel. It's the role, not the red channels or something in the reds, because what you were saying, the ruddy skin tones are just weird red in the skin is something I've run into several

times when viewing on the Mac. Gotcha. That is, uh, I think they figured out a way to calibrate it though, but I, I couldn't go into that. My colorist Alex knows more about that than I do, but he did say there is like, I think maybe a way now to make it accurate. it. Yeah. Do you find, I mean, it sounds like you thoroughly enjoy the color grading process. Do you shoot kind of knowing, I guess you, you pre-make the luts, don't you? Yeah, so we, you know, we basically go

also because the luts are so sensitive to exposure. You can't necessarily just shoot a blind test and then apply luts to it later because they all do different things. So you basically get a batch of luts and then try them out in different scenes and then kind of compare and control. them later, but I like to do it all in advance because seeing them on set is this is huge. Like they go, I mean, I do a lot in the color grade, but I, you know, in the perfect world, you know, you walk away from set happy and you're like, not going to change a thing. But usually you're tweaking the things that were impossible on the day to tweak or you didn't have time to do or just trying to like, you know, soften an image or deal with a shadow

that was, you know, paying the ass. Yeah. So you're not using like an onset colorist, you kind of figured that out and then you just rotate through the less to see what works with the given scene? Well, no. Well, our onset colorist is usually, well, my DIT, Matt Conrad is the onset colorist, basically. And so, well, you know, you were building in like whatever, the levels for each scene, and you're adjusting for lenses.

Some lenses are greener or cooler. And so you're kind of building that in to completely blanking on the term. But every scene or shock, it's basically like a, you know, a small lot that goes with it to the edit that's been adjusted. and then that gets carried over to the colorist. So he's like, oh, it's, you know, it's like the CDL. CDL, there we go. So they're working on a, you know, there's a CDL for every shot, usually just to adjust or like we're chasing the sun

or there's coolness going down. That's the minutia of it, you know, and then sometimes you can take bigger swings by like putting green in the shadows because you want to seem to be a little creepier or grungier and it's just not doing it and you don't want to do it with the lighting. So just by adding some green in there, you can start to make things feel interesting.

Yeah. It's, uh, it's certainly the thing that I kind of have the, I just put like a whatever let on it. And I'm like, as long as it looks good, like it's, it's one that I built. But I know it's just for exposure, basically. And then I know I'm going to get in the grade and just play with it for hours on end. There's always new tools coming. You know, someone comes out with like a film emulation software. And you're like, oh, I'll give that a try.

And then you're like, that's kind of weird looking and slows my shit down. But no, I mean, that's like, I think grading your own stuff is this huge part of becoming, you know, of evolving as a cinematatine. I spent forever grading the bulk of my stuff for five years until I got to a point when someone when they were like you can't grade your own stuff it's going to a professional yeah have you uh has the past like few projects because you did a short in between all these three things right between everything everywhere and the two shows yes um did a short with um there's a couple shorts I'm thinking about it. Which?

Is there a specific one? No, I was just going off IMDB. I haven't seen it. But the question was just going to be, you know, how do you feel like you've enhanced your skill set, so to speak, from the last time we've spoken now? Is there anything that you kind of think about that's made your life easier or maybe lessons you've taken away from all that experience? I mean, I have a better idea about how to work in television now.

It's such a different animal from film in that, you know, it's a much bigger collaboration between multiple directors and writers and showrunners and things like that that trying to get to the bottom of what you're trying to execute can be strange if you're used to film. generally with the films I've worked on, which tend to always be writer-directors. You know, they're the source. You go to them with your ideas and your questions and your concepts, and they're like, great, let's do it. With television, you know, it's a group effort. And more importantly, the showrunner does have a very important say on it. And so getting on the same page of them is as important as being on the same page as the director.

And a lot of times now I'll pick shows. I mean, you pick your show generally based on it's a great script. But also if you and the showrunner connect and you can sense that you're the same type of storytellers as opposed to say you and the director connect, which is great. But if you and the showrunner like don't see that eye or like you're not making the same movie, then it tends to be painful. And so that was a big part of beef as I, you know, the minute I started talking to Sunny, I was like, oh, great, we're on the same page.

This is going to be wonderful. Like I'm excited to work with you and have you just kind of be there guiding us to what you what you imagine the show to be um that was a big thing was just kind of navigating those waters in terms of execution and things like that um uh i keep thinking i'm going to do away of my music video background but it's still very present in terms of speed and being clever of schedule and making one scene work for two and reusing locations and things like that um the speed hasn't gone away well i'm sure uh ades and producers are stoked on that yeah i mean it just you have to be i mean you know TV you're on the same pace as an independent film and that you're doing five to six to seven

pages a day you just have more resources to execute but it's also that kind of funny game of like you have enough money to get in trouble you may not have enough money to get out of it so you have to really you know when you have like the big the big day the big scene of 200 extras you have to make that day you're not coming back right that's awesome uh well i know we're on a shorter interview schedule so i'll let you go but um a question i ask everyone now it's changed uh but if you were to it's harder with television but if you were to put beef in a double feature with another film or series uh what would it be um yeah uh that's a good question i mean it can compare it can contrast, you know, or compliment or contrast.

I don't know. I mean, I don't watch enough television. The only show that, I mean, what I liked about beef was it about heroes that are kind of bad people in a way. Well, there are bad people who happen to be the hero of the story. I don't, it's, I guess, White Lotus is probably the closest thing I could think of in terms of like a show about, you know, like the inner workings of people and the idea of like how to self and the selfishness protect and hurt you.

Sure. But they're, you know, on, you know, Beasts like, yeah, on gasoline, just like much bigger, bigger, bigger results. Crazy right? Yeah. Hell yeah. Well, it's a great show, man. I loved it, but also, you know, I'm seeing tons of people enjoying it.

So once again, I am proud of you again. Well, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. You're making something else in it right now, right? You're shooting something? I just finished a movie called Wolves with John Watts. Oh, hell yeah. It's a, yeah, it's like a dark comedy thriller? I don't know how to describe it. It's a buddy comedy, I guess, with Brad Pitt and George Clooney. I just kind of spent all the winter shooting nights in New York. It felt like it was a very interesting process.

well when it's time to talk about that we'd love to have you back on and do a chat about that because I'm sure it'll be great yeah there's a lot of stories from that one that'd be fun frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me Kenny McMillan and distributed by pro video coalition as this is an independently funded podcast we rely on support from listeners like you so if you'd like to help you can go to buy me a coffee dot com slash frame and ref Pod. We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening.