Freakonomics Radio - 328. Extra: Mark Zuckerberg Full Interview

Episode Date: April 2, 2018

Stephen Dubner's conversation with the Facebook founder and C.E.O., recorded for the Freakonomics Radio series “The Secret Life of a C.E.O.”

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. You are about to hear a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg, founder and CEO of Facebook. It was recorded last summer, long before we learned that 50 million Facebook users' data had been weaponized by political operatives. Facebook has been the subject of intense scrutiny for years now. That's what happens when you've gone from a college dorm startup to a social network with some 2 billion global users. You heard parts of this interview during our recent six-part series, The Secret Life

of a CEO, which you can find at Freakonomics.com slash CEOs. Now we're releasing some of our full interviews from that series as special episodes like this one. I spoke with Zuckerberg in Chicago in a trailer outside an event space where he had just addressed a few hundred very enthusiastic people who serve as group administrators for Facebook user groups. He had just introduced new software tools that would help them manage their groups. You may have heard recently that Facebook has been seriously questioning its mission, that it's trying, or at least it's saying that it's trying, to encourage more meaningful social bonds and less partisanship and discord. That movement was essentially launched on this day, at this talk

Zuckerberg gave in Chicago. You know, every day I wake up and I just think to myself, you know, I don't have much time here on Earth. How can I make the greatest positive impact that I can? And I know that this is a question that a lot of you ask yourselves too, and it's not always an easy question to answer. Now, the thing that I think we all need to do right now is work to bring people closer together. And I think that this is actually so important that we're going to change Facebook's whole mission as a company in order to focus on this. And now here is our conversation afterward in that trailer, a trailer whose air conditioning we had to cut for a quiet audio recording. So picture yourself there, an un-air-conditioned trailer in Chicago in the summer with Mark Zuckerberg.

You there with me? Great. Here we go. Hey, how's it going? Really nice to meet you, Stephen. You too. Good to be here. That's great. Hi, Phil.

How's it going? Hi. That was really good. Thank you. You like it? Um, good. Because it's a like it? Um, I mean, it's, cause it's a whole set of things that you didn't used to ever do.

Yeah. Um, no, I think it's, it's important for me to get better at communicating. I mean, Oh my God, the people are so excited when you talked about the tools,

you know, did you expect that level of, uh, did you expect that level of excitement from them? Probably not that level, uh did you expect that level of excitement from them probably not that level but i mean i think people are always most excited about the the really concrete things that you're doing yeah right so you can talk about the the lofty vision and mission and strategy and yeah i actually find you're lucky if you can get people very excited about that even if they agree with the direction that you're going because it's just more abstract but when you get into a very

concrete uh work that you're doing then that's when it yeah i think really energizes people i have to say it so i'll be honest with you i don't really use facebook that's okay i mean we use it freakonomics we use it um but i i mean i'll honest, like, I don't want more friends. No, I mean, that sounds bad, too. But do you want to stay connected with the friends you already have? No. Well, yes, but. You don't?

Okay, no, no, no. Well, it's, honestly, it's tricky because, you know, when you're trying to get a lot of stuff done. I mean, I don't mean to sound like a total misanthrope. All I'm saying is, I don't use it a lot. But, like, that made me want to want to like join every group in there and then i realized i'd have to quit my job and do nothing but like find rare birds and go fishing and support these military families well i don't think you know the point isn't to join every group i think it's really important that that people have one or two or three communities in their lives that they

really care about and i think when you have the absence of that, that can lead to real social issues, individually and then for society overall. So, you know, of course, these groups, in order to be meaningful, need to span online and offline, right? There are certain things that you just can't do online. But the thing that I think is so meaningful and interesting and what we've seen is that they do, right?

I mean, the people do plan events to come together in person and the support really does expand out into the physical world. And a lot of these groups are just things that wouldn't have been possible physically. I mean, we talked about groups for people suffering from rare diseases. And almost by definition, if you have a rare disease, there probably isn't someone in your area who has that. So this might be, you know, possible for the first time in human history to be able to come together and share your experience of having that condition. I think that's very powerful. But I think everyone needs to be a part of a few communities that are meaningful to them in order to have that support structure. So I don't mean to rain on that parade, but I'd love you to talk for just a minute about kind of the net um effect of facebook

or social media um or or social networking um on let's say happiness to pick a word or satisfaction right so people i think there's a lot of good conversation going on that like gdp is a ridiculously bad measure of well-being it's way too narrow it's blah blah favors all kinds of kind of silly stuff. And that people are talking about either gross national happiness or some slightly more sophisticated version of that. But it's really hard to measure it one and B know what causes what. Yeah. So with Facebook, let's say per se,

the upsides that you, especially that you talked about in there today, are potentially massive, right? Helping communities that wouldn't be able to find each other or even identify each other, identify and find each other. But I also do worry about the potential downside, which is that, you know, I have teenagers and there's always the notion of like, well, what people show of themselves online is often them at their best, most buoyant, happy selves. And if I see that and it's a Friday night and I'm not with them, I'm thinking, man, what's wrong with me? And I'm curious if you think about kind of the net effect, costs and benefits on humankind, which is a big and impossible question, but I'm guessing you thought about it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's very important to us. So the way that I think about this is that technology amplifies human capacity, right? So people, there are good parts of people and there

are bad parts of people. I believe that on balance, people are good and that therefore amplifying that has positive effects. You know, there's content that portrays people at their happiest. And then there's content like a lot of sensational news in some cases that portrays things as much worse than they are. And I just think that the reality is that both have positives and negatives. You know, I mean, there are people who like to point to the negatives of either because they're trying to make a point. I don't think that that's right. There's a lot of research that shows that the more connected we are overall, the happier we are and the healthier we are because of that.

So it can't be that talking to your friends when they're happy is bumming you out and reading news that's down is bumming you out even more. But being an engaged citizen also is not always fun. Right. And a lot of the part of the mission that we've been working on is making the world more open and connected. So the connected part is about being connected to more people. And there is generally a lot of research that shows that that is positive for people. But I think that being open is also very important for society. Right.

And but it can be challenging. Yeah. Right. society, right? But it can be challenging, right? Confronting truths or perspectives that don't fit with ours don't necessarily make our lives easier in the near term, but I think it's a healthy thing and an important thing for us to do both as individuals and a society in order to be able to move forward. So, following on that, how do you just kind of not square that circle, but bring those two notions together, which is the fact that we love to connect with people that we either have something in common

with, or maybe a shared mission with, as you noted, it's really important to at least think about or understand a little bit about what people who don't think like you, why they think like that and how you can get along. So this is, you know, know, the silo issue and it exists everywhere and it probably always has and always will. And I'm just really curious, you know, it's interesting. A lot of the groups in there are tribes and it's a word that people use kind of positively. And also a lot of them, that's, you know, let's be honest, they're kind of, you want something to drink?

You want a water? No, it's cool. You sure? It's just very warm in here now that you're in the area. Well, yeah, that's our fault. Let's go with it. All right. And a lot of the groups in there were about like activities. So of course, everybody's allowed to have hobbies that are totally orthogonal to everybody else.

But when it comes to political or social or gender or other affiliations, how do you think about weakening the silos? Yeah, so we've both read and just tried to understand as best we can a lot of research around how to promote positive discourse. So there are a few things that I think are pretty interesting that most people may not know. So the first is that if you want to have a debate where people engage productively, the first and most important thing is to first connect with that person over something that you have in common. Right. So if you just go into an internet comment thread

and you start debating gun control, that probably isn't going to be super productive. I mean, it can be in some cases, but it's easy to dehumanize the other people, think about them as not human, not empathize with them. So a lot of what I think social networks can do well, and these communities, are first you connect over something that you have in common. So you recognize that the other person is a person. And I think communities in that way act as a jumping off point.

Do you try to orchestrate that? I mean, I've read about your efforts to do that and the research that that's based on, right? So if people... Yeah, so we're trying to work on this, but I think building communities is one of the ways that you can, right? So a group might come together because they like fishing, but then they go connect over other things and they debate other things and they find that, hey, we agree on other things and we disagree on them, but now we can have productive and empathetic discussions because we're all people and we recognize our common humanity. In terms of just encouraging

good positive discourse overall, there are some best practices. I mean, so for example, one of the ideas that people suggest all the time is, well, why don't you just show people the opposite perspective, right? So you have an article that comes up in your newsfeed about, you know, take gun control, the topic we were just talking about. And a lot of people are like, well, why don't you just show an article from the other perspective? Well, it turns out if you don't do this well, if you just show the other perspective, it actually just entrenches people's belief in their original opinion. You know, there's a lot of confirmation bias. It labels the other opinion as other. So you kind of start to tune it out. So what you really want to do is not just present another viewpoint,

but you want to give people a range of viewpoints because people are smart. And when they have the full picture of what is going on, they can make a good rational assessment for themselves about where they want to be on the spectrum and what they believe. But it's really important to not just tell people, hey, here's the other viewpoint, you should look at this. What people need is the whole picture. So and I think that good journalism does that it doesn't just try to show one side of a story, but but it tries to give the full picture. And when when that doesn't happen, then we can help play a role of at least trying to show a number of different pieces of media that might in some give the whole picture. So how much do you care about or maybe love social science research, the kind of insights that give rise to these kind of possibilities? So

I mean, I don't really, I've tried to figure it out and I've read a bit and I know you studied psych for a while and I know that you hire a lot of- I wasn't at Harvard for very long, but I was technically a psychology major. And like, I don't know if you know Sudhir Venkatesh, a sociologist you hired, who's a good buddy of mine. Yeah, he wrote Gang Leader for,

it's a great book, I read it. So Sudhir is amazing. And I love the notion that someone who thinks the way he saw as an academic and as a writer and a scholar, his insights are being applied to something like this, which is accessible to everybody. So talk about how you, you know, seek out those kinds of things, not know people, whether it's the people per se or the research and how you make it actionable. Because I think I'd like to argue that social science research is kind of having its golden

era. I hope it lasts forever. But, you know, people didn't really apply this kind of thinking very much in firms and governments 20 or 30 years ago. It's really happening. So I want to hear about how you make that happen. Well, understanding how people are using our services, both in terms of what they want, so we can provide services that meet people's

needs, and understanding what's good, are really important domains that we want to work on. So we take data analytics and data science just very seriously as a company. I think it's one of the core strategic things that we've done well that other companies are seeking to emulate now. But especially because of the context of what we do as a social system, it's especially important, I think, to understand. Who are some heroes of yours from that realm, like Bowling Alone and Bob Putnam? I'm just curious what you've read or thought over the years. Yeah, well, Putnam's work shares a lot of the themes that I was just talking about today.

He wrote some of the seminal work on community membership and did some of the longest ranging studies on that. You know, it's an interesting question of where you draw the line between what is social science and what is economics but i think recently raj chetty's work is incredibly interesting on opportunity and mobility right and you know we're doing some interesting work together and we try to team up with with folks who are doing interesting work um because there's interesting research now that shows that the average american uh has fewer than three close friends who they would turn to in a crisis. So one of the questions that I asked inside our company, and I started a team to work on this is, well, could we make it, could we build some products or services that make it so that the average person has one more close friend, right? So not just helping them connect to more people who they know. But,

you know, if you could do that, then that seems like a very meaningful change that you could make in the world. Especially when, you know, one thing that I'm doing this year is I'm traveling around and trying to just, you know, see how people are thinking about communities and their work and their outlook. You're going to all 50 states, I understand? I'm going to 30. I'm going to the ones that I haven't been to yet. Okay, all right. Yeah, it's interesting so far. But one of the things that I've found is that there's this myth that I think a lot of people have that if other people in other places just had better information, then they'd make better decisions.

And I've generally found that that is not true. We all lack some information. So of course, we could all make better decisions if we had perfect information. But for the most part, a bigger influence is actually who you know, right, who your friends are, and who your family are, and how they help you filter the information that you have. And probably, and I can give a few examples of just how this is really poignant example. So one was, was in Ohio, um, I sat down with a group of heroin addicts and, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, um, you know, when you're going through recovery, the first thing you have to do is detox, of course. But

then after that, the next thing you have to do is basically get new friends, right? And it turns out if you're, if you remain friends with anyone, um, who you were using with before, then you are very likely to end up back using heroin and endangering your life. So it turns out it's not that these people don't know that it's bad, right, or that they don't want to end up addicted to it, but it just is that the people who you're friends with, having those close friends, you know, the three or four folks in your life are just so important. Another example that has really stuck with me is when I visited a juvenile detention center. And one of the facts there that's just mind-blowing is if you go to a juvenile detention center, and some of the kids are there because they committed, you know, what you'd call a crime, right?

They stole something or hurt someone. But some of them were there just because they were misbehaved in class a little bit. And going to a juvenile detention center dramatically increases your chance of becoming a criminal once you get out. Because what you're essentially doing in that center is building a social network that reinforces itself negatively. All the examples that you're getting are other people who either have criminal behavior or are misbehaving. So kids who might have just been a little not behaving as well as they should have in class are getting all the wrong lessons and friends. So making it so that we can have a positive social network, I think is actually one of the most important things that we can do for growing opportunity in society.

And that's certainly what Raj Chetty's work is. So that's definitely a big thing that we study and think about how we can improve. Let me ask you something in his work that he found that was surprising and interesting. Do you know about the moving to opportunity research that was done years ago, right? And all the first round of scholars that looked at it and they said it didn't work. And he came back with a colleague and found out that actually it did work if the kids were younger when they moved, right? Because by the time you're 15 or 16, like your patterns are pretty set, like you think school sucks or you don't. But if kids were like nine and under, I think it really worked. So to that end... Actually, he found a linear correlation. So if you moved when you were nine, you got half

the impact of moving when you were born. And if you moved when you're 18, that's kind of the end of the impact. Right, right. So given that, and given that the communities you're building are presumably mostly for adults, I gather, what do you think about? Oh, people over the age of 13 can use Facebook. Okay. But how do you think about, I mean, you know, this is a corollary to a question I often think. People talk about early education, and I'm really interested in the project you're interested in because I've known people who've done that. I just think that's a smart way to think about it, right? Use technology to customize because people learn differently. People have different abilities and so on. But even when you talk about good early

education, there are a lot of kids, the kids who end up doing worst in this country and most other countries are already doing bad by the time they're like one or two they're born into circumstances that are just really really hard to surmount so i mean without putting all the world's problems on on you and facebook this is actually what this is what priscilla my wife focuses on she's running a school uh which is focused on the intersection between health and early childhood education she She's a doctor. Right. Studied as a doctor. And she wanted to help kids. And then basically, you know, through her pediatrics program,

realized that education and health are so intertwined and that you need to start educating the parents from the time that they're pregnant about what the right behaviors are. And then you basically want the kids in school or in a program or, or at least to kind of have good habits being built from birth and have them involved in that as quickly as possible. And, you know, when we think about education, we often think about concepts like math or reading, but, you know, very early on when you're learning how to walk, you know health is completely intertwined um with education and then of course as you as you go up through your education it's uh like hard to uh learn math if you're not if you can't sleep at home right or there are different

issues so i mean there are all these interesting trade-offs that um and you could do a whole podcast with her talking about but i mean she has students who come in um and who are in an environment at home where um they can't sleep as well. So she has to make this tradeoff, which is she lets the kids, they have a nap time during the day. And if a kid is sleeping and just sleeps for four hours or, you know, instead of the hour and a half, does she wake them up to do math or does she let them sleep? And I think a lot of the time, you know, what ends up being the case is that the health is the the is the precursor to education so you let them sleep right it's probably the right thing to do but um but they're they're totally intertwined in the way that you're talking about yeah coming up after the break is facebook a nation state or just a community? Well, it's a community.

Okay, but a really powerful community. I'm actually not sure that there are many other institutions in the world that stand for building communities and have the tools to be able to empower people at a large scale to do that. That's coming up right after this. Back now to our conversation with Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg. So Facebook is obviously not a government. You don't have an army, as far as I know. Do you, right? No, we do not. But in some ways, it's become a nation state in the way that, you know, we used to think

about nation states, except that it doesn't provide those services and it doesn't use monopoly force and so on. But what I mean is, you probably have, I would- It's a community. Okay. But it's a global community organized by interests, activities, and it's voluntary. So, to me, it's, right, nation state is an exaggeration. But what I'm getting at is this. Governments throughout history, and especially now, try their best, I would argue, to help their people. And they often don't do a very good job because the structure of government turns out to be pretty suboptimal and the incentives kind of weird. In a way, Facebook, it strikes me, has more leverage over how people actually organize

and live their lives, right? The choices they're able to make, the information they're able to get hold of. And so, I'm curious how you think about that. I know you were an accidental CEO and an accidental social entrepreneur, but it strikes me that you're working really hard to take this massive accidental enterprise really seriously and optimize it for the most number of people. So I guess my question is big and lumpy and impossible, but I really just want to know what that feels like because, you know, look, I don't know how to read what you're trying to accomplish here. You're this incredibly smart and accomplished young guy with this incredibly big and impressive company.

And maybe you're just trying to make it bigger and better and that's it. But it doesn't read that way to me. When I read your letter to the global community. Yeah, well, I never started this to build a company. Yeah, so, but I mean, I wouldn't have, knowing what I know about you, if I looked at you 10 years ago, I also wouldn't have thought that you were necessarily in it to, like, you know, help fix society or help make society better. Maybe that's, I'm just wrong. Well, I mean, I think at each point, you try to do the best you can with the position that you're in, right? So, you know i was just trying to help connect people at colleges and a few schools right

and that was a basic need where you know i looked around at the internet and you know there were services for a lot of things that you wanted right i mean you could find music you could find news you could find information but you couldn't find and connect with the people that you cared about which you know as people is actually the most important thing. So that seemed like a pretty big hole that needed to get filled. And, you know, maybe it's more functional and more basic, but that was the thing that needed to happen. Now, you know, we look out at the world and we say,

okay, we've been focused on making the world more open and connected. And I always thought that that would be enough to solve a lot of problems by itself. And for some it has. But, you know, the world is today more divided than I would have expected for the level of openness and connection that we have today. So now I just believe that we have a responsibility to also work on that. So now you can kind of paraphrase what we're working on now is open, connected and together. Right. You can kind of paraphrase what we're working on now is open, connected, and together. So that is basically the idea that we're talking about when we say bringing the world closer together.

Here's another way to think about it. There are lots of different issues and things that help bind people together and make us stronger as a whole than the sum of our parts. A huge part of that is the economy, right? And our jobs and all that. And, you know, Facebook is a big player there, but, you know, we're a relatively small part of the overall world economy. But when it comes to helping people build communities, I'm actually not sure that there are many other institutions in the world

that stand for building communities and have the tools to be able to empower people at as large scale to do that. So that just strikes me as something that's okay. If that's a unique opportunity that we have, then we also have a responsibility to go do that. And that's a little different than where we were 10 years ago when, when we, you know, weren't even, you know, there were many social networks that were bigger than us and, you know, we were just at schools and all that. Yeah. The tools that you talked about today, obviously you're giving some user data to the users. What does that represent in the kind of path

of Facebook sharing its data generally? And I realize that what you're giving to the users is useful. I love that, you know, when you announced them, one lady actually said, statistics, woo! I've never actually heard people cheer for that before. I miss that, you know, when you announced them, one lady actually said, statistics, woo. I'd never actually heard people cheer for that. I missed that. That makes me smile. Yeah. It was awesome. And obviously you're not sharing, you know, income. It's aggregated. It's insights into how people are using groups. And I mean, I could, I mean, you basically, basic demographics, who wouldn't want that. Right. But I mean, right. demographics. Who wouldn't want that, right? Well, I mean. Right?

If you're the admin. Well, you need to present it in a way that's actually useful. Yeah. But I mean, I'm sure there are people who want you to share much more data about your users. Yes? Well, I think one of the interesting challenges that you find running a company or a community at scale is there are people who want things that are completely conflicting right so there are certain people who want um us to share more information and then there are a lot of people who really don't right and so you know for some of these social decisions that we have to make uh i find that the right place to be is when you're getting yelled at from

both sides equally and you know you try to you try to just make the best decision that that you can on this but um but i mean in both both parts have have good have good arguments i mean yeah i mean of course privacy is extremely important right and people engage and share their contacts and feel free to connect because they know that their privacy is going to be protected um on the other hand, if you're trying to enable people to build communities, giving them some insights into how people engage in their communities in an anonymized way that isn't sharing anything about it, the individuals and the communities can help them do their job

and help bring more people together and help people's lives as well. So you try to just do the best that you can and know that there's not always a simple and optimal solution. And another dynamic that's interesting is that sometimes the balance of what people want shifts over time. And that enables opportunities to do more in one direction or the other that wouldn't have made sense before. There's also, as you've pointed out, people don't know what they want. We're really bad at predicting. Oh, I don't know.

I don't believe that. Well, in the revealed preferences, right, and what people actually do, you can see what they want. We're really bad at predicting. Oh, I don't know. I don't believe that. Well, in the revealed preferences, right? And what people actually do, you can see what they want. But if you ask people what they would like, it seems, I mean, the social science research, it says, at least says that declared preferences, there turns out to be usually be a really big gap between that and revealed. No, you're going to defend. Well, I would say that in a lot of these discussions that I have, people focus on what we as Facebook are doing. And what the real secret to why this works well is because we focus on giving everyone else as much power as possible. What do you mean by that? Meaning just give users power to use it as they wish?

Yeah. Give people the freedom to share as much as you can. Give people the ability to get access to as much opportunity as possible. And there's a whole spectrum on this. I mean, first, in order to be able to use a tool like this, you need to have access to the Internet, which is something that we kind of take for granted here in the U.S., but more than half of the world doesn't have access to the Internet. So we work on basic things like improving the business model of telecom operators,

or we're designing solar powered planes to beam down access to the internet because that's a basic thing. Then once you have the internet, there's the whole legal framework. And we are very active in advocating in many countries to give people the freedom to share more and express more of what they want. You know, the U.S. is somewhat of an outlier on having constitutionally protected freedom of speech in a way that very few other countries do, right? So every other country has many more restrictions on what you can say than you can in the U.S. So that gets in the way of people's freedom, and we are active on pushing on that. And then only when you get through these basic foundational and legal frameworks do you get into the tool,

which is, you know, in the US, people can have the freedom to say what they want to anyone who they want. But, you know, that may not help you so much if you don't have a tool that actually enables you to reach other people with your opinion. So that's a thing that Facebook and the internet, I think, have really worked to change over the last 15 years is now we really are in a world where anyone, for the most part, can write something and share it. And if it resonates, it'll get shared widely, and it can start to change opinion broadly. But in many ways, it's the, that ability is the practical arm of free speech, right? That just didn't exist before. But there's this whole spectrum of things that you need to do. And that's the thing that we're hugely committed to.

That's why when we rolled out the mission today, you know, the basic idea behind it and the vision is to bring the world closer together. But the reason why that isn't the whole mission is because it was really important to me that the mission focused on empowering other people. So the mission actually is to give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together, because there's no way that we're going to do this, or no what we do i mean you can ask me all the questions you want about what we're going to do but it's actually going to be other people doing this and we succeed when we empower other people now a cynic would say well sure it's in facebook's interest the more the bigger they build a global community the bigger and better the company is

which is not untrue but i mean it's within it's the prerogative of every company to grow as big and as frankly, as profitable as they can. So, but let's say that someone puts on their, I doubt the do-gooder part of you hat. How do you respond to that? In other words, I think a lot of people just can't get out of their own way. So, I mean, I think for a lot of, of companies and governments, they would do better by giving people more freedom and they don't for whatever reason. So, I mean, you may be right that it is strategically the right thing to do, but that doesn't stop everyone from that doesn't mean that everyone is doing what they should do. But so I just want to make sure from the mission of the company on down to how we execute and think about our strategy, that that's always front and center. And, you know, a lot of times people like to think about, well, what is the impact that we can have by improving this product? I really want to train our organization always to think about what is the impact that we

can have by giving these people more power and freedom to go do what they want. So this just gets back to your original, your question before around, do you believe that people can make good decisions for themselves? And I deeply do. I really think that things get better when you do. I didn't mean to imply that people can't make good decisions for themselves. Although on some dimensions, I would argue they can't. With health particularly, I mean, I think you've written a little bit about this, right?

That the leading causes of death in the rich world are all essentially self-inflicted, right? Or at least a lack of optimizing how you take care of yourself. So, and you could say that people kind of think the trade-off is worth it. I'm not sure I'd say that. That the trade-off is worth it or that? No, no, no, no. The largest cause is self-inflicted. I mean, look, cancer, TBD, because we really don't know what caused, I mean, cancer, truly TBD, because we really don't know what caused it. I mean, cancer, truly TBD, because we really don't know yet about most cancers, what causes them. That's the problem.

I mean, the environmental causes and behavioral causes, I wish we knew, because then we wouldn't have as much cancer. But like cardiovascular, just take the biggest, you know. It's also largely a function of age. It's true. It's true. I'll debate you on this. All right. And one reason we have more cancer now than we should is because people are living longer, not dying as early from cardiovascular deaths, which is, you know, great. And I'm not, there's always a silver line. But like, you know, the economist Gary Becker from University of Chicago years ago, he was, he was the guy that started all of this in terms of like turning economics into a more interesting social science.

And he argued once that all deaths are suicides to some degree because none of us actually really optimize staying alive long because life's too fun and interesting and challenging for that. So I think we all make tradeoffs all the time. And I think that that's what being human is about. And it's maybe fun. No, you're shaking i disagree with that too yeah tell me why well well i think that um having a sense of purpose is the thing that brings us both happiness and health so i i mean if you're framing it as doing stuff that's fun leads you to your demise um i think there was a lot of research that would

suggest the opposite yeah i agree with you yeah that, I mean, fun meaning cheeseburgers and French fries and not taking care of oneself. That's what I mean by fun. That's a shallow version of fun. All right, so let me just ask you, I love the Reid Hoffman conversation in that piece. Yeah, that was fun. It was really interesting, and I loved how he framed it. And you were obviously really good talking with him. You said something on there that I wanted to ask you about how many versions or whatever the proper noun would be of Facebook are running at any given time. And just explain that to people who use it and what that idea represents? Sure. So one of the basic strategies of our company is to learn as quickly

as we can, right? That is more important to us than, you know, any specific strategy of, okay, here's how we're going to build the best messaging app, or here's how we're going to build the best newsfeed is building a company that is just agile and learns as quickly as possible from what people are telling us. So the best way to learn is to basically try things out and get feedback. So if you just have one version of Facebook running, then that constrains how much people can react to. So we built this whole framework that allows people within the company, any engineer,

to change some code, create a new branch of of what facebook is and ship that to some number of people maybe 10 000 whatever some some small um portion of the community in order to get good feedback from that on and there are a bunch of rules around you know there are a bunch of things that you can't ship and how's it coordinated like i i assume that if i'm the engineer and i want to do that, I do it with someone with conversation and approval. And no? I mean, some, yes.

I mean, there are definitely guidelines. I mean, there are things that, you know, if what you're doing is sensitive to people's information at all, then, of course, there are a bunch of checkpoints that you need to do before doing that. But, I mean, people try out, you you know different ideas for how to suggest you better friends or suggest you better communities and that doesn't need to go through a lot of process of the company people can just try those out and we're trying out um hundreds of different versions of things like that and the idea is that cuts through red tape of the company so now a given engineer um instead of having to get you get their manager and then their manager's manager and then me on board with changing the app, they can just do it. And then at the end of that test, they get all this feedback back that is both quantitative.

So how their version of Facebook performed on everything that we care about, how connected do people feel? How much do they feel informed? How happy are they? Just all these different things. And then we get qualitative feedback back as well. And if their version is an improvement, then we roll that in and then that becomes part of the trunk version of Facebook that now everyone else's is measured against. versions to see what's best and what people respond to. But again, it gets back to this strategy, which is the real company strategy is to learn as quickly as possible what we need to do in order to bring the world closer together. How about a couple lightning round kind of fast questions? What's one story that your family always tells about you? That's a good question. You'd have to ask them.

But you probably know it too, because it's like, oh yeah, there was a time that Mark did. Because I loved, you know, I love the stories you talked about with Reed. I mean, ZuckNet was awesome. I also love the snowball fight game where, you know, you could have a real snowball fight, but it's a lot more. Yeah, I mean, I think my sisters were happy enough to play the games that I programmed growing up because it was better than what we would do physically right so they prefer like playing a snowball fight game or some strategy game that I made even if the graphics were terrible the game wasn't that good

right because I was still learning how to program I was like 12 or 13 or 14 they'd prefer that to getting chased around the house with a super soaker or something like that so um so there's all there's that um you know i think my dad has a lot of fun stories about how he got me into technology and he's a dentist but he was always very focused i mean he took a lot of pride in being you know the first dentist in the area who did digital x-rays instead of physical ones and so he would always show up and have, and he's just such a geek, right? And he loves this stuff. And he didn't really know how to program,

but he was always just like, Mark, don't you think this is cool? So that stuff I thought was pretty good. You obviously have to make a lot of decisions all the time and there are a lot of different ways to make decisions. I'm curious to know what's, and deciding to not do something is often much more important in retrospect than deciding to make decisions. I'm curious to know what's, and deciding to not do something is often much more important in retrospect than deciding to do it. So other than deciding not to sell Facebook early on, which I'm guessing was at least a little tempting, what's the best decision

you ever made to not do something or not pursue something? Well, so you're asking about kind of a discrete big decision yeah not necessarily i actually think the most important thing is what decisions and what process on a day-to-day basis you choose to let people have the freedom to do and just not get involved with right so a huge part of of how facebook works is giving a large amount of freedom to our engineers, the company, and to people who use the product to make with it what they will, right? And trusting people to do that rather than, so there's this balance of how much is it going to be my ideas and my will versus the people around us in the company. And I think having some restraint there ends up being very important.

Was that hard for you to get to or? I think it's hard every day. I think because when you're running something, you of course have the ability to make as many of the decisions as you would like. So the real art, I think, is not when you know that you have someone who's a superstar who's going to make great decisions, but deciding to let people do things that you disagree with because on principle and, um, you know, it's just going to free up more creativity and people will feel like there's more potential to try different things in the future that may be better. Um, if you let them go do those things, even if you disagree with that. It's really admirable.

I would think it's hard. I don't think I could do, I think most people would have a really hard time doing that. I believe a lot in giving people freedom. I believe... I do. I mean, I believe in the belief, but I just think that's a hard thing to do. All right, last question quickly. If you weren't doing this, if this hadn't worked out, if Myspace had become Facebook, what do you think he'd be doing? That is a really interesting question. You know, I've always really cared about the idea of connecting people and bringing people together. And the way that you do that is different to different points in history. So I mean, if I were another way that I think about is if Facebook didn't happen, you just drop me in a desert. Now,

what would I do? I'd probably I believe that technology is a huge lever for improving people's lives. Um, it's a great thing that an individual can sit down and construct something and share it with millions of people around the world. Um, almost nothing else other than code and technology gives you that ability to do that. Um, maybe producing media on top of that technology, but, um, but the technology is the platform for that. But today, a lot more people message each other than just use social networks, which is why we're very focused on Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp as well. So if you got started 13 years ago in a dorm, the right thing to do is to build a website for social networking. Seven years ago, maybe the right thing to do is build a mobile app for social networking. Now, I think one of the most important things that you do is build tools for more private communication because people have the power to do that. I think that that line will always be shifting. And I would bet that, you know, at any moment that you would want to get started, you probably could. And there are always going to be new ways that people want to share and connect and feel supported and there are always things to build and i'm just a big believer in technology

and bringing people together is two of the most important levers that we have to make progress as humanity all right no offense and i know it's hot in here and you got to go but you really didn't answer my question which is just literally like what you think like if like if this had gone very differently right like the program like you couldn't- Like so differently that I wouldn't want to be an engineer anymore. I mean, my answer is that I would build whatever the next thing is. I still think you care about the mission,

but Facebook is not a one product company at this point. And, you know, there are new social network companies that get started all the time. I'm not sure exactly how I would think about it. So there's no impulse to become a dentist, for instance. No, I don't. No, I mean, that stuff kind of makes me queasy. So I never had the whole doctor thing.

And Priscilla's got that covered for the family. But no, I mean, I believe a lot in technology. I think that there are lots of different ways to get started. I mean, our path as Facebook, I think think is good proof that the line is not clear. I mean, I started it as a website for Harvard students to build a community there, right? And, you know, there was no newsfeed.

None of the stuff that you think of is the most important parts of what Facebook are today. So, you know, you start with something, you find a niche, and then you can grow it to serve more people in that way. That's what I care about gotcha

thanks for your time that was fun thank you thank you it was really fun yeah thank you very much all right we get some ac yeah in next week's special episode you'll hear my full conversation with Ray Dalio, founder of the gigantic hedge fund Ridgewater Associates. I think that basically life exists in three big phases. In the first phase, you're learning and you're dependent on others. You're a kid. Second phase, you're working. Others are dependent on you and you're trying to be successful.

In the third phase, the greatest joy you can have is to help others be successful. Also, please keep your ears out for our regular Freakonomics Radio episodes, which hit your podcast stream promptly at 11 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesdays. Thanks for listening. Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes Allison Hockenberry, Greg Wazowski, Stephanie Tam, Max Miller, Merritt Jacob, Harry Huggins, and Brian Gutierrez. The music you hear throughout our episodes was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts or any number of podcast portals. You should also check out our archive at Freakonomics.com, where you can stream or

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