Freakonomics Radio - Extra: Jeremy Lin Full Interview

Episode Date: October 20, 2018

A conversation with veteran NBA point guard Jeremy Lin, recorded for the Freakonomics Radio series “The Hidden Side of Sports.”

Hey there, I'm Stephen Dubner, and this is a Freakonomics Radio Extra, our full conversation with NBA point guard Jeremy Lin, because the new NBA season has just begun. We interviewed Lin for our ongoing Hidden Side of Sports school and college, at least to some degree, because as an Asian-American kid, he didn't look the part of an NBA player, nor did it help that he played his college ball at Harvard, which is not a basketball powerhouse. But he exploded onto the world sports stage in 2012 in what came to be known as Lynn Sanity, leading the New York Knicks to multiple victories and putting up a personal stats line that would make a superstar happy. Lynn is now with the Atlanta Hawks, his seventh team in nine seasons. He's no longer a starter. He is, however, in the third and final year of a $38 million contract.

We spoke a few days ago. Lynn had come straight from practice. Hey, Jeremy, this is Stephen Dubner. Can you hear me? Yeah. Hey, nice to meet you. How's it going? Nice to meet you as well. So, Jeremy, what would you say is one of the biggest differences between being a professional athlete and what the average fan thinks it's like to be a professional athlete? You know, everything. I just don't think the average fan really understands much about what it means to be a professional athlete, to have your life in constant scrutiny

and all of the pressures. I mean, you have to think, yeah, every athlete is obviously making a lot of money, but how many people are trying to pull and pry and the tug and pull of the different pressures of each and every single person in that person's life and a lot of people that you love dearly you have to say no to constantly or you have to set up boundaries for yourself because everyone wants something from you and that's just the people that you love and then there's the people that you don't know and all the different business opportunities and all the different things and so uh yeah and then the other thing is everyone thinks it's fun it's like you're getting played paid to play basketball all you do is like play basketball like you should you should make your

shots or you should and people don't understand the pressure like this is not fun and games show up at the ymc or go down the street to a rec league like this is people fighting for their livelihood and fighting for their families and this is like a real thing and and injuries and things like that like fans are so quick to dismiss it or make fun of someone who's like oh like you know someone like derrick rose is like oh man he's constantly injured and they're making fun of it but the guy spent like all his time making himself a great basketball player that's what he loves doing like the amount of effort the heart the the love for the game like those type of things and then for everyone

else to just like from the outside come in and make fun of him or whatever in his 25th year and meanwhile he spent 25 years giving up all the different temptations of the different things that everyone else has allowed themselves to enjoy but he's done it to like become better at basketball and he's you know i mean so like there's a lot of heart and effort that goes into these things but then fans are so quick to kind of just like uh only think about it from their end like i can't tell you how many fans have come up to me and they're like man you're on my fantasy team like and you got hurt like you you know you hurt my fantasy team I'm like are you comparing what I do and what I love and what keeps me up at night and like like the thing that I've put you know tens of thousands of hours into to your little fantasy thing that you just showed up one day and did a 60 minute draft for like

it's just funny because the fans are actually invested right like they're invested but it could never compare to what an actual athlete um has invested into their own life and so i definitely always try to just warn people and i and i try to warn my friends and my family too when they're making judgments on a football player or on you know anybody even a musician it's like man we just don't understand how hard it is to be that and like how much it takes to be great that's the other thing is like fans think like man i could take him or i could beat him in one-on-one or whatever and it's like do you understand how great it's like there's six and a half billion people and there's only 450 that make it to the NBA.

Like respect greatness. You know what I mean? That's kind of what I would say to a lot of fans. So I understand. I think this is true that you were an econ major at Harvard. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

Was that in retrospect um a good choice um i don't know i think the the verdict is uh still out where we're not sure um i can tell you that it doesn't help me at all with my current job um and i haven't used it at all since i graduated but uh i think that's something that I'm going to use somewhere down the road, hopefully. I majored in economics and then minored in sociology. And so I'm really interested in poor communities and why they're poor and how do you help underprivileged children and how do you really boost the economy of struggling areas. And so that was some, that's really the reason why I kind of blended econ and social together. But again, that's probably going to be post basketball more than anything. So do you, do you have thoughts about what specifically you want to do after basketball

toward, you know, addressing those kinds of problems? I think for me, I have a foundation, the Jeremy Lin Foundation. And so I really want to work a lot with that, work a lot with the communities that we're involved with and the organizations and the NGOs that we're partnering with. And I always, you know, it's tough to say. I don't really know exactly, but I kind of see myself investing in one or two locations primarily. I just think for me right now in playing in the NBA, it's hard because I have such limited time.

But if I could do anything when I retire, it's to be able to really, really invest and live and constantly be in that one community that I really want to work with and change. So let me ask you this, something you mentioned about, you know, trying to focus on your athletic afterlife during your athletic career. It's always struck me that there's a real paradox there, which is that, you know, when you're a professional athlete, that comes with a lot of leverage, obviously. And one leverage is that, you know, you can have, you can meet people, people are excited to meet you, maybe to work with you and so on. But as you said, you can't

really devote the time to invest in developing what will be your afterlife. And I'm curious if that's a conflict for you. Like, is this idea that you have something that you'd like to be developing now, that you'd like to be setting yourself up better for that now, but that the athletic career just conflicts too much? And are you worried that by the time you're done playing, you'll be kind of left behind in a way? I'm not too worried about that because I think for me, I have, I've hired four people who work for me full time and they manage everything from, you know, my, the agents, all the different agencies that represent me across the world. So I have, you know, a Taiwan agency, a China agency, US agency that I have, you know, we have a whole bunch of business ventures. We have a bunch of stuff on the foundation side. We have, we have, uh, e-sports organizations that we're owners in and we have, so we have so many things going on and I have a core team of people who I've hired. And so we're constantly building towards post-basketball.

And so we've laid out so many steps and done so many things in all these different areas and in these venues. if I haven't been in those networks or if I haven't established those relationships or if I haven't done absolutely nothing to prepare myself I will miss the boat but I think from our end we are really really proactive about it right now we're going out we're meeting people we're you know doing different things and we're collaborating I think that's really fun to see but also on the flip side I am still a basketball player And so I can't put so much into it that it jeopardizes my career or jeopardizes my ability to perform on the court. And so that's where there's a nice balance of people around me that are helping me with that. And then like, it's a constant discussion and we're in dialogue of how to maximize my time because we know that I'm not going to have as much as I would when I retire. Right. How much time in a day do you spend during the off season, basically being a professional athlete, whether it's working out or watching film or whatever? In other words, are you pretty much full time year round as an athlete or no? I'm definitely year-round. I pretty much, after the season,

I take like two, three weeks off and then I'm back to training. And when I'm training, it's probably going to take four hours a day. The body can't really handle that much more than four hours of intense training. If you go lighter training, you could do it for longer. But yeah, so normally it's about four hours. And then I spend a lot of the rest of the time doing a lot of the off the court stuff. Gotcha. And then just for a minute more on the after the NBA career,

what do you envision yourself, you know, specifically being or doing? In other words, do you want to be like the public facing person who's running a big NGO that works with different cities? Or do you want to be behind the scenes? Do you want to be involved in research? Do you want to be involved in the political end? I'm curious. I haven't fully figured that out. and we've done a lot of visioning and we have different discussions and this is something that we talk about every year it's what it looks like i think it's going to end up being a blend of a bunch of different things but the primary targets are going to still be being a big part of my foundation. And that's, you know, that's like, you know,

being the face and being out and meeting people, attending events or hosting events, getting into high level meetings and things like that. And some of it might cross into like public policy, or it might cross into meeting with government officials in China or different things like that, whatever it really takes to help people. And then I think I'll also be on the ground as well, spending a lot of time with the actual people and kids and things like that. And then I think I'll be traveling to do different things like public speaking or showing up at different events.

With business ventures, I have, you know, a basketball league with many basketball schools in China and we have thousands of kids and we're growing a lot. And then I think there's definitely something that I'll continue to do is I was just on a show this past year or this past, I filmed it this past summer

and actually it's midway through, like, I actually it's midway through like i think it's probably through like eight or six of the episodes and there's maybe you know there's probably we're probably at the halfway point of the season and in china and i think we're at like 800 900 million views at this point oh my wow yeah so that's three times the u.s population um it's it's uh it's a monstrous it's a monstrous show and a huge endeavor and so i think there are certain things in that where it's like the exposure that i get from that is so far beyond really anything um that i've been a part of and so as i think about my role and the values that I'm

trying to push and the things that I'm trying to push, even being on those shows is going to be something that I may consider doing even after basketball. What is that show about? Is it a reality show of your life or no? No, it's a reality basketball show, but it pairs. Basically, there's two teams. And so I'm the coach of one team and I'm partnered with Jay Chow, who is a big time, big time. He's an absolute legend musician. And every single person in Asia knows who he is. And he's, you know, been a huge he's dominated a lot of the music scene for the last 20 years.

And then on the other team, there's the number one point guard in all of China. And they just won the championship in the CBA. And he is paired with one of the hottest actors in China right now. And so they have their team. And then me and Jay, we have our team and it's like a reality show and we coach these players and we choose different players to represent our teams.

And so you start with 150-ish players and then you whittle it down to your team and you do different competitions and the loser, you have to keep kicking people out if you lose. And it goes through a lot of life stuff, obviously,

because these kids are living together and it's filmed over the course of a few months. So it's pretty fun. Wow. Sounds fun. And congratulations on the success, obviously. That's great. When you look at your post-NBA life and career, how do you think about balancing the philanthropic and the commercial? In other words, do you want to do a lot of projects and businesses that make a lot of money? Or are you mostly interested in focusing on philanthropy? That's a great question. And I don't have a super solid answer other than I am very idealistic. I dream big and I would love to do both. And what I mean by that is I don't really see them totally as two separate arms.

When I think about my business stuff, I actually connect a lot of my philanthropy into it. Even now, when I do stuff, when I get equity in companies or when I have endorsements that pay me or whatever, or even what I do with my personal finances or things like that, everything kind of ties back into everything. And so my goal is to have like my endorsements and my business ventures and those different things, like supporting my foundation and supporting the kids. And then even if, for example, you have, you know, let's say this league, right? So we have this basketball league that I started, but this basketball league throws together this crazy, it's this huge celebrity charity game. And we fill an arena with 10,000 people and we get some of the top celebrities to come in Asia. And we've done it two years in a row. And this past year we had, I believe, 18 million people watching online. Wow. helping underprivileged children. We're going to build courts in really, really, really poor areas.

We're going to give scholarships to kids who love basketball, but couldn't afford it. And we're going to do a lot of different things. And so that's a great example of a way that I can tie those things together. And so obviously we're going to make money through the league if we do it right. But where's that money going? And obviously the business needs to be self-sustaining and you need to continue to kick back and pay back your investors or make a profit. But there's a portion of that that should always be going towards helping other people who really, really need it. And so I'll never like be the person who just wants to make top dollar. I think for me, I would rather have top impact over top dollar. But what I've

kind of been learning too is that they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. If you just run a great business, you can do that really, really well. And you can also help people really, really well. And so all of a sudden you're looking at top profit and top impact. And I think, you know, even in personal finance is a great example of that is impact investing. And so I don't invest in things that really manipulate or take advantage or exploit people that are really underprivileged. And on the flip side, I invest in a lot of things that have high impact. So impact investing, I've invested in certain movies that promote really good causes, or I've invested in people who buy down, run down buildings, rebuild them, and then they actually offer lower rent to, you know, widows or people who are really at risk or things like that.

And again, at the same time, it's still a viable, plenty viable business model. You're buying these buildings for really, really cheap, but then you're doing really good things with it. And so I think that's where if you really want to do it and if you spend the time and you have a heart for it, you can be great on the commercial side and on the philanthropic side. Right. So as a player in the modern NBA, your career has intersected with a phenomenally good financial setup. So, you know, the NBA is, I guess it's the highest average salary for athletes by a long shot, in part because the rosters are relatively small. So I see that your current contract, you're in the third year of a $38 million contract. So that's, you know, for one person, even after taxes and agent management, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you personally are obviously doing really well and your family and so on, you're in great shape. Do you, you grew up immigrant parents, Palo Alto, California, not a lot of money. I'm just curious what the adjustment has been like for you personally to make that much money. And I'm curious if you spend a lot and get a lot of pleasure from that, or if you're maybe on the other end of the extreme, the other extreme where, you know, having grown up without a lot, you kind of stay in that lane and don't spend a ton and save it for the future, maybe for the philanthropic projects and so on. So basically, as a long way of asking, what's your personal financial philosophy like these days?

Yeah, my personal financial philosophy is, and it has always been pretty much the same, like you said, immigrant parents. I would say my parents, they made a solid amount for sure. We weren't, you know, upper class or, but we weren't, we definitely weren't the bottom of the bottom. We're middle class for sure. And I think, but the problem is our expenses were so high. Because of you primarily trying to support your basketball career? Yeah, all of us. Yeah, but all of us because my parents gave us the widest range of extracurriculars to allow us to really pursue any avenue we wanted. And so, you know, I've taken classes to be an emt

because i thought that's maybe something i want to do i've taken dental classes i've done every type of sport a ton of different instruments chinese school uh drawing classes i mean i've done anything that i wanted to pursue they've really done a great job of allowing me but not just for me also my brothers and then on top of that you know growing up uh they knew the palo alto school system was so good so we went they went and got a house there but obviously the mortgage and things like that and then all of a sudden you have three boys who are all playing basketball and playing at a high level and traveling and it's really expensive to do that and so for to continue to support our basketball careers as we got older and older was just harder and harder. And then all of a sudden the kids were all in

college. And so there's definitely, we needed help. We've taken loans and we had financial aid and all those different things. And my grandmother helped me out for one year for my tuition and things like that. But my number one priority coming out was to make sure that I got everything situated with my family. And the next priority is to make sure that my family is good forever. And the thing is, my family doesn't spend that much. We didn't grow up with a lot. We don't need a lot. And that's true for all of us.

And so it's pretty easy. But I'm just making sure that everybody will always be okay financially, no matter what. That's my number one goal. And so, and then, you know, I wanted to just take care of my parents, kind of get them some nice stuff and spoil them a little bit. And then as for me, I don't need that much. I mean, I have, I live comfortably, but I'm not like, I don't, I wouldn't say that I, I don't think I live like extravagantly. Again, a lot of what I'm not like, I don't, I wouldn't say that I, I don't think I live like extravagantly. Um, again, a lot of what I'm focused on right now is, um, how do I make an impact with my money? And so, uh, whether it's, you know, ties and offerings or whether it's donating to my

foundation, I mean, we, the foundation for me, uh, We had one kickoff event, I believe, like six years ago or something like that. And so we had that one event. But besides that, everything else has been just, you know, funded personally. And so, yeah, I don't ever want to get outside of myself or live to a point. I mean, even if I could have the thing thing certain things like i feel like there's better things i could be doing with it and so right what would you say what would you say is the most extravagant thing you've ever bought or spent money on for yourself for myself um i bought a i bought a jeep wrangler um and then i of, and then I just had some fun with it.

I put, you know, 20 to 25 new things into it, changed the rims and all the different stuff. So that's probably been. Yeah, but that's still like a 10th of a Lamborghini or something though, right? Yeah, I mean, I've leased, you know, more expensive cars. But for that reason, it's like I knew that, well, I've only leased one other more expensive car, but that's actually cheaper than when I straight up buy a car and make a bunch of changes. But I actually haven't bought myself a house yet, and I just feel like I don't need it right now.

I mean, I'm renting, I'm moving every year. So I don't think you should sell Harvard so short for, I know it's not a highly regarded college. It's nothing to do, I'm never going to sell them short. That's an amazing college. I just meant my career path is so different, but you're right. I mean, you know, had I gone into something that's very economics oriented, Harvard would have more than prepared me for that. I mean, all my friends are doing amazing things. It's so cool to see just my teammates and my friends from Harvard and what they're doing now. But, you know, yeah, economics has not really helped me with putting the orange basketball through the hoop. Let me ask you about analytics so as someone who did study economics at Harvard in school you

probably have a little bit more of a sense of how data is used to understand the world generally. And obviously, analytics in sports has been a big story for a long time now. There are some people that would argue that analytics have revolutionized sport. And there are some people who would say, and I probably put myself a little bit in the second camp, who would say that the revolution is nowhere near as revolutionary as people think, that as much data as there is in sports, that it hasn't really by your organization or someone outside or maybe you has changed the way you thought about the way you train or play or approach the game or approach a particular opponent anything like that um actually you know i definitely feel like analytics has um completely changed the game i mean from when i came into the league until now it's like back to the basket low post players are virtually unseen everyone is becoming a you know it doesn't

matter how tall you are but you got to learn how to shoot the three you have to learn how to face face up and dribble the basketball and do different things and play and and and just we're opening up the middle of the floor a lot more and we're the game is becoming just more tailored to layups free throws and threes because those analytically are the most efficient shot um so i actually think analytics has played a enormous enormous role it has validated a lot of players like steve nash and steph curry and people who are doing things but like in the before it may have been like kind of crazy for them to play that way um but now we're seeing no like that's actually the best way to play um you need you're supposed

to play like that um that's how you're going to score the most points and a lot of the things that you're describing the analytics puts a higher value on tend to be things are things that actually you're pretty good at although you were not a great three-point shooter um coming into the league you've gotten better yes yeah um you know the last season that i played i was able to get up to 38 but i would love to continue to increase that. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like when I came in, I really struggled with it. But again, it's like something that's a necessity. It's like if I want to play in today's day and age, I really have to be able to improve that.

Maybe where I stand though is that I definitely appreciate the importance of analytics but i think that i can't go so far in that direction that i lose the instinctual creativity of the basketball instincts and so right a great debate is whether to shoot the mid-range jumper because it's a much more inefficient shot um and for me, I personally, my thought process is if it's there, you got to take it. You don't want to take it every possession, right? But if it's there, you have to take it. And the reason why I think is if you're going to take it, be great at it, right? And hit that shot, right? And then also the other thing about it is if you don't take that shot like you're not getting to the rim they're just going to keep backing up keep backing up keep backing up and so in in some ways like you have to to keep the defense honest there has to be some i wouldn't say it's never shoot the mid-range

it's just don't shoot the mid-range so much that you're still reliant on it. Your goal is still to aim for layups, free throws and threes. Um, but if the opportunity presents itself, then you got to step up and take that shot. Right. So one reason your career has been so interesting to so many people starting with, well, most people discovered you with the New York Knicks, even though you'd been in the NBA before that with the Warriors. But you were life ago. And I'm guessing there are parts of that early, those early chapters that you're happy are, you know, pretty distant. But I am curious if you're willing to engage in it for a minute, just to talk about why the, maybe the dimension or dimensions, plural, on which you were overlooked and why

and kind of what are the lessons to be learned from that? Not just for you, not just for basketball, but for anybody. I mean, I definitely think, you know, my numbers didn't blow anybody away from college, my stats. But I think a lot of that again is you're gonna have to see everybody comes from a different system and so what is the system what is that person capable

of what will that person look like in your system right um that's going to be something that's important you see a bunch of busts as well like the reason why is because maybe they looked great in one system but when they get to the nba that's not what it's going to look like i think the other thing that people really um are now probably going to scale more towards but you know sometimes it's often overlooked is the mental side of things um, the best players are the mentally strongest. They're the ones who can learn from their mistakes. They're the ones who can fight through adversity. They're the ones who continue to believe in themselves

and aren't afraid of the challenges ahead and things like that. And then the people that kind of bow out or don't do great are usually the ones who maybe are a little bit more lazy or a little bit quick to make excuses or blame other people. Obviously, these are huge generalizations. But I would say there's an overall trend, obviously, with the harder somebody works or the more somebody believes in themselves and really does exhaust every avenue to make themselves as great as they can like the inner drive of how bad they want it and then obviously i think for me race uh the way i looked um and i've said this before but everything i've always

done has been deceptive um so i've never been athletic i've just been deceptive. Um, so I've never been athletic. I've just been deceptively athletic. I've never been quick. I've only been deceptively quick. Um, it doesn't matter. Like when the stats came out, like I was tied for first with, uh, John Wall, uh, for speed and, uh, yeah. And he is, uh, you know, people call him freakishly athletic, freakishly quick. And then I'm deceptively quick or deceptively athletic. I think, you know, before I got hurt for, I think maybe two or three years, again, me and John Wall led all point guards in blocks per 48 minutes. When he gets a block, it's, you know, and he he is he's a great defender he's a great

you know shot blocker and he deserves and he is really really quick he deserves all the credit and more that he's than he's getting in many ways he's overlooked as well but again people won't see me as like and obviously i don't jump as high or whatever but there's maybe there's something else maybe it's timing maybe it's whatever it is that allows me to get those blocks and to get them at a high rate. But I think for me, everything I've done has always been deceptively, whatever. And so, you know, I just don't look the part and I understand that. Which of, I mean, in a way though, both of those descriptions are, you know, whether you want to call them racist or biased or whatever, they're both in their way insulting, don't you think? Because to call someone freakishly blank or, you know, amazingly naturally blank is to say that they don't have to work at it.

And to call you deceptively means that there's not an innate talent. Do you agree that they're both kind of limited descriptions and maybe a little bit offensive in their way? Yeah, I mean, I think, and that's something that I've said, I think John Wall is an underappreciated point guard. And our stories have crossed paths many times, whether it's in summer league or whatever. Uh, but, um, yeah, I mean, look, the reality is, is not everyone's going to be as fast or jump as high as John Wall. So there's a talent component to it. And then there's the

other part, which is, or the nature part. And then there's a nurture part where he works hard. He loves the game. He has put a lot into it. He is extremely competitive and he has done many things right to be able to put himself in a position to succeed. And you can't take away one by only recognizing the other. And so for him, you know, maybe people are more like, oh, he's so talented he's so talented and they take away a little bit from and you know his his work that he's put in for me maybe people scale more towards like oh he must work so hard he must work so hard and maybe not recognize that oh maybe there's a little bit of talent because if you took everybody else and they work just as

hard as me without talent they still wouldn't be in the NBA. So there is, you have to honor both sides. And you're here today to set the record straight and say that you actually don't work hard at all. You're incredibly lazy. You're just purely naturally talented, right? Yeah. Let me just ask you, I'm really curious about the role of faith in your life as a basketball player. So a lot of athletes throughout history have been very religious but I'm also curious how it works in the team chemistry. Basketball team is relatively small. You're traveling with each other all year round. And I'm curious how whether there's a division between those who are religious or openly profess their faith and those who don't, whether it kind of breaks up in cliques at all, and also just how your faith

affects your life as an athlete, your career as an athlete? I mean, I think for me, the simplest way I could describe it is, I don't really think that much about like whether i'm like i'm just trying to be as authentic as i can be um so when people ask me questions or when i live a certain way like when i live a certain lifestyle or when i make decisions it goes back to authenticity or what i feel like is right like um you know and so i think for me it's like the nba is a place where people constantly are meeting new types of people we have lots of foreigners we have you know you know some now more asians we have you know african-americans we have whites we have all you know people who come from all different states countries everywhere and so people very, very respectful of other people. And the other thing is because you spend

so much time around each other, you really learn who that person is and you really learn more about who people are. And so there's just a natural respect that is grown through spending time with people or losing respect for them. And I think for me, it's, you know, I'm going to, you know, faith is everything for me. I know I wouldn't be here without it. I know that in my times where I've wanted to quit, you know, faith has allowed me not to. I know that in many situations that I couldn't control, there was something different, something divine. There's been too many coincidences in my life for it to just be pure chance.

Actually, this is maybe the economic side of it. But like, I wrote down a list of all different things that had to happen for me to experience insanity. And every single one on that list was outside of my control. So I made sure everything on that list was something that I couldn't control. And then I was like, let's just say that I put on some random probability.

And even if I was like really generous, like, okay, my parents are both five foot six and I am six foot three. Both my parents are not above 140 pounds and I am 205 pounds. Like what is the probability of that happening? Even if I was generous and then I multiplied all those to make sure that all of these 13 things had happened,

the probability that you're looking at just from pure math is 0.0000 something, something, something one. That's like if I was like going to actually calculate that probability. So again, like my story that's, you know, has never happened before. No one has ever walked the path I've walked. And I think like there's something divine about it. And I think everyone,

and whether other people want to admit it or not, I think that something that everyone else looks about, like looks back on and hears, you know, when they hear or think about my story, they're just like, dude, that was amazing. That was crazy. That was miraculous. I've never seen anything like it. There's an awe to it. And I think like my story is very much an exhibit of, you know, God's power or God's fingerprints working in my life. And that's the best way. And trust me, I'm the first person that would love to take all the credit for it if I knew I could and if I knew I should. I would,

right? But I just know I can't. And so even with my teammates, I just try to be the same person. I try to be what I say I am. And I think over time, they learn who I am and they respect me and vice versa. Of all the things that you've learned about, let's say, people and circumstances by having a pro basketball career, what do you think lot of connections, what have you learned about how to interact with people or maybe something you've learned about how to learn that you got from your career that you think will be really beneficial in your afterlife? I think that's a great question. I think I would give two answers. The first is what is, what really matters purpose? I wouldn't like, I think everyone deep down innately, we are built to want to live a purposeful life. No one wants to waste their life. No one wants to live a purposeless or

meaningless life. And going through my basketball career, I've really learned the ups and downs and what really matters. And I think I've also learned to like be grateful and enjoy each moment because these moments you don't get back. And so that's like, you know, maybe the most powerful lesson is, and that's where faith obviously ties into all of it, is just like, what is my true purpose

or what is true joy and those types of things. The other thing that I would say, communication. If there's anything I've learned, it's communication. It could be a marriage. It could be in your family. It could be on the court. It could be with someone you don't like. It could be with a coworker. It doesn't matter. If you don't know how to communicate, things are going to break down. Things are going to fail. And if you notice a trend of people in your life or experiences where you're constantly like it's not working out, you should probably look in the mirror and realize that you're probably not the best at communicating. And I've had to change a lot of the ways that I communicate.

I have learned so much about communication, different styles, different people, different personalities. How do you make somebody motivated? And each person is their own puzzle um you can't there's no blueprint solution you can't treat everybody the same everybody is different and even someone who has uh you know is an extra you can't treat two extroverts the same you can't treat two introverts the same like everybody is a different puzzle and you have to take the time to love and serve them and know them and then communicate well with them and when you communicate well with somebody like that is the beauty of sports that's the beauty of life whether it's whether you're teaming up in marriage you're

teaming up in uh you know being a sibling you're teaming up in you know as a basketball player as basketball players like the beauty is when you communicate well and you do things well and you have good synergy and teamwork that makes life a lot more fun. I'm so glad I got the chance to talk with you today, Jeremy. It was a lot of fun. I learned a lot and I appreciate the time and I wish you the best going forward in basketball and everything else. Appreciate it.

Thank you for taking the time as well. Thanks to Jeremy Lynn for that conversation. If you haven't already done so, check out our Hidden Side of Sports series. We've already put out three episodes and are working on several more. We're also publishing a lot of these extra full interviews on Stitcher Premium, along with other bonus episodes. Just go to stitcherpremium.com slash Freakonomics and use promo code Freakonomics for one month free. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. Our Hidden Side of Sports series is produced by Anders Kelto and Derek John,

with help from Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Allison Craiglow, Greg Rippin, Alvin Melleth, and Zach Lipinski. We had help this week from Nellie Osborne. Thank you. Or you can email us at radio at Freakonomics.com. As always, thanks for listening.