Frequent Miler on the Air - Are first class awards worth the extra miles? | Ep209 | 07/01/2023

Episode Date: July 1, 2023

On this week's show Greg and Nick discuss the huge advantage of flying business class over economy or premium economy (and how airline miles make that possible at a reasonable cost), and debate the next step: is it worth paying more miles to fly international first class instead of business class? 00:00:48 Giant Mailbag00:03:14 What crazy thing did Amex do this week? • Amex sometimes claims that tax payments don't count... • See also: Pay taxes via credit card 00:09:54 Deal talk: Save 40% to 50% at Amazon.com 00:16:56 Award Talk • Lufthansa often releases first class award space near last minute • Aeroplan not always showing awards that are bookable with United and/or Avianca00:19:37 MAIN EVENT: Are first class awards worth paying more for? • 00:21:26 Comparing economy, premium economy, business class, and first class • 00:32:10 First class ground services (Lufthansa example) • 00:36:39 Award cost econ vs. prem econ vs. biz vs. first class (AA example) • 00:41:40 Special first class products that ARE worth paying a huge premium for • 00:47:33 Award cost econ vs. vs. biz vs. first class (Aeroplan example) • 00:51:04 Award cost econ vs. prem econ vs. biz vs. first class (Lifemiles example) • 00:55:00 ANA First Class vs. JAL Business Class • 00:58:22 Conclusion: Is it worth it? 01:03:07 Question of the week #1: Are Greg and Nick out of touch? 01:07:31 Question of the week #2: Status match to get international upgrade? Music Credit: Annie Yoder "Ocean Deep"

Let's get into the giant mailbag. What crazy thing did City do this week? It's time for Mattress Running the Numbers. Ready for the main event? The main event, Frequent Miler on the Air, starts now. Today's main event, International First Class Awards. Are they worth paying more for? Now, you can use your miles to book international first class. And it's pretty nice. And it's very nice. Or you could use fewer miles and book international business class, which is still very nice. Pretty nice, yeah.

Or pay even less and book like Econ or Premium Econ. And they get there at the same time. They do. They all arrive at the same time. So we're going to discuss whether it's worth paying more for these luxury flights. First, of course, giant mailbag time. Today's giant mail comes from Saluki Mike. This is a podcast review. Saluki Mike says, most useful travel podcasts. I listen to pretty much all of the miles and points podcasts weekly.

Some are fun to hear about the hosts travels. Some are fun because of the banter between the hosts, but frequent miler is the one that I think actually gives you practical advice that normal people can use. Doesn't use jargon without explaining it. If somebody were new to the hobby or just looking to get into it slowly that I would recommend this first because you actually get useful information along with the steps you need to do it yourself. So it's not just the host bragging like it's some secret club you can't get into. Really solid work, guys. I'm impressed. I credit you guys with helping me take advantage of the AA portal, the American Airlines portal, advantage portal, which got me to, now he used Dragon,

EXP, which is top-tier executive platinum elite status with American Airlines, last year and more than halfway there for this year already. Thank you. Congratulations. Very well done. Hopefully, we also have some good banter now and then Saluki Mike, but

good information is important. I'll take that if i only have if we can only allowed one thing then good information should be it but but i hope there's a little banter yeah it's funny that you called that out because i was thinking the same thing when i read the part that um you know some are fun because of the banner between the hosts but not freaking miler he's not these guys he going to be just good for the info. It's not entertaining. Hey, five stars. Five stars.

Thank you. Thank you for the five stars. We appreciate it. Very good. We definitely do. We definitely do. That was a great review. Thank you.

It was. It was. I always love to hear those because I don't look at the podcast reviews all that often, and I should probably, but I always love it when you bring one up because I don't watch them every single week. All right, we're going to skip Card Talk this week in the interest of time because I'm on location, so I should mention that also. So I am coming to you from Lake Como in Italy at Menagio, the Grand Hotel Victoria. So if you hear church bells in the background at some point, I apologize for that. I'm going to try to mute so that you won't hear them, but I'm outside on my balcony at the hotel. So if you do hear that, that's why. But that's why we're skipping

Card Talk this week, because we've only got limited time before the sun goes down on me. So let's talk about what crazy thing. So what crazy thing did Amex do this week, Greg? Yeah. So Amex, this is a crazy thing that comes up repeatedly every now and then. So we have a post about how you can use credit cards to pay your taxes. And while there's a fee that's just under 2%, it can often be worth paying that fee in order to, you know, make it a signup bonus. So, you know, credit card welcome bonuses require usually anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 spend in order to earn the signup bonus often. And paying your taxes can be a great way to meet that big spend. And even if you don't have like that many taxes to pay, you can basically pay estimated taxes and give the

government a loan and then get that money back when you file annual taxes at the end of the year. So that's the idea. But every now and then someone writes in saying that they didn't get their welcome bonus. And it's always Amex when this comes up. And that they talked to some rep and the rep said, oh, well, tax payments aren't allowed. So, yeah. So is that the truth or tax payments really not allowed? And this is a weird one because people thing I tell people all the time is I never ask a representative a question that I don't already know the answer to, because it is very, very likely that a representative will give you incorrect information and not intentionally. It's not that they're going to intentionally mislead you. It's just that the vast majority of representatives who said this before don't eat and sleep and breathe these programs.

It's a job and they answer questions the best they can based on their understanding of things, which is very rarely based on real world experience and more often just based on their interpretation of what they think is right, which is often wrong just because that's the way things go. So I wouldn't take whatever a representative tells you as the official word on just about anything, I would check with other people who have real world experience with it. Now, in real world experience, Greg and I have both made plenty of tax payments with Amex cards and earned welcome bonuses before I did this year, in fact, and got the welcome bonuses as expected. So so I know that it counts and it works. And I know that from firsthand experience in 2023. So I know it

does work, but we have had reports of it not working. So are there any hints you have as to what it is that's causing some people to run into problems with it? Yeah, maybe. But before I get into that, I just want to say briefly that Amex does have terms and conditions in their applications that say all kinds of things that are not considered valid spend towards the minimum requirements of spend for your signup bonus, but paying taxes is not in there in any shape or form. There's, there is no term in there that I think can even be, you know, interpreted as maybe taxes fall into that. I mean, there just aren't. So you're on very strong footing if you're told that to push back,

raise it up to a supervisor, all that kind of stuff. But here's what may be happening. And these are, I would call this no more than rumors at this point. Some people who have signed up for new Amex cards, um, you often get a temporary card number that you can use immediately. As soon as you sign up and are approved, often Amex will ask you if you want a card number, a temporary, um, it's actually usually, I think it's actually a real number, but it's temporary, like a security code that goes with it and a different expiration date probably. But there have been some reports recently that when people have used those immediately after signing up to spend big and hit the signup bonus that that hasn't counted. And the theory of what's happening. And again, I have no idea if this is true, but, but is that, um, is that once you sign up that it's taking a little time to load that offer into your account, to load the signup bonus

offer into your account. And so if you make the spend before it gets loaded into the computer system, um, that spend might not count towards your minimum spend before it gets loaded into the computer system, that spend might not count towards your minimum spend requirement to meet the offer. So the recommendation is, you know, ideally, if you can, just wait until the physical card comes to do your spend. If you can't, wait at least until I'd say the next day after you signed up to do your spend, just to give it some time to go through the system, just in case this is real. And again, I don't know for sure if this is a true story, but we've heard some rumors of this.

We have. And I'm a little skeptical of that too, because I've done some spend on those temporary numbers in the past year here when I got the temporary numbers. And I don't think that I've had any issue with that counting. But again, I don't know. Off the top of my head, I don't know if it was within hours of signing up or maybe it was the next day that I used the temporary number. Who knows? So yeah, that's the one piece of advice I think we can give people for now. And the other piece of advice, like Greg said, is that you do have some footing to push back and say, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't make a tax payment. And really, in the absolute worst case scenario, I think if you filed a Consumer Financial Protection

Bureau complaint and said, listen, it doesn't say anywhere that this doesn't count. I don't know how Amex would stand and say, no, this doesn't count towards minimum spend because it's just not anywhere in the terms that it doesn't. So I would push back and just have somebody put in writing, where does it say that this doesn't count? I'll in fact, add one more thing that on the IRS's own website, on the page that lists the ways you can pay with a credit card, there's a Q&A section. And in there, it says these purchases count as, the spend on the card should count as purchases. So you won't get hit with a cash advance fee or anything like that. So I think any kind of an argument that it's a cash equivalent is very, very weak, especially when,

as Greg said, they call out so many things that shouldn't count and this is not one of them. So I have to believe that that's in part influenced by the IRS and the way that they word things on their site too. So anyway, good luck, hopefully hopefully if you're in that situation where you've been having trouble getting that, uh, counted and hopefully it will work out. All right. So that was the crazy thing. Let's talk about deal talk this week. So instead of mattress running the numbers, we're kind of, uh, rebranding this here as deal talk, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it just doesn't make sense to call this mattress running the numbers today. Right.

So Amazon is out with a fairly regular type of thing that comes out where they give you an ability to earn a discount off of Amazon products if you use credit card points to pay. And so in this case, this is American Express and Amazon. So if you have an American Express card that earns points and you can link it to your Amazon account, and then once you do, you can click a link on our post that's about this deal and see what offer, if any, you qualify for. So there's various offers out there. You hopefully will get either the 40% off or 50% offers. Those are the good ones. There's 15% offers floating around as well. But the ideas you could get,

like I got on both me and my wife got 40% off of up to $150 spend on Amazon. That's pretty terrific. Yeah, it's a great deal. Now it is limited to things that Amazon itself ships and sells. So all the third party sellers, you can't use it on that stuff. But guess what? Amazon actually sells third party gift cards. So you can buy third party. You can't sells third-party gift cards.

So you can buy third-party. You can't buy Amazon's own gift cards. They won't let you do that with this discount, but they will let you buy Uber Eats and various things. Airbnb I've bought in the past and get the discount off of those purchases. And I just clicked the link right now because I hadn't done it. I've been on vacation and I haven't done it. So I just clicked the link right now and the offer I got was 40% off up to a maximum discount of $60. So quick math on that. So I don't even know what that is. $150. There you go. So 60 off of 150 bucks. I mean, hello, I can buy a hotels.com gift card and save some money on a hotel or whatever, I mean, Starbucks or whatever it may be that works for you.

I know they have Safeway, if you're a Safeway person, lots of different options. Yeah, and now here's the thing. The offer, the promotion lasts, like once you click through and register the promotion, doesn doesn't mean that you're definitely going to be eligible for it because it might go away. And here's the thing. The promotion will end at 5 p.m. on July 13th or earlier. It'll end earlier if 31,024 customers have already redeemed the offer.

So you want to be the 31,023rd or better, right? Where do they go? 31,024 customers. Where do they come up with that stuff? I don't know. I'd love to sit in the meeting where somebody is like, you know what? I think we should limit this one to 31,024 actually. No, no, no, no, not 25. 25 was too generous last time. No, that's right. Sorry, Bob. No, it's got to be 24. I don't know. So yeah, I don't know. But the reason that's important is that Prime Day is coming up. And it's often great to stack these kind of offers with Prime Day deals because Prime

Day deals are usually off of products that Amazon sells and ships. So you already are getting a discount. Now you get 40 or 50% more off of whatever those things are. And correct me if I'm wrong, Nick, but I think sometimes they base that 40% or 50% off on the original price, not the discount price. We've seen that happen before. I mean, a couple of years ago, there was a set of Bose headphones that went on sale on Prime Day. And they were originally something like $350, but for Prime Day, they were $230 and making'm making up numbers. It was approximate, somewhere in that range. And so the 40% off was coming off of the $350 price range or whatever.

Now, in this case, obviously you're capped at 60 bucks. So maybe that won't be a good example for this specific one. But we've seen instances where that percentage came on the original list price, not the sale price. And so then you end up getting an even bigger discount off of the sale price. So again, that doesn't happen every single time or on every single product when we've seen it, it's usually been in specific products. So you have to get lucky and find one of those, but, but we have seen that work out well before. So, you know, if you have this, this offer and you've activated it and it lasts until prime day, you could use it on something like that or hope to use it on something like that or on one of the many other products that are on sale. Even if it doesn't give you 40% off of the original list price, it could still be a fantastic deal on Prime Day as long as 31,040, or no, I'm sorry, 24 people haven't used it already by then.

Right, right. Yeah, so it's a bit of a game of chicken. I don't think I'm going to play that game. I think I'm going to just go ahead and buy some third-party gift cards myself. Now, that said, often around Prime Day, this happens with other card issuers as well. So even by this, who knows, by the time we publish the podcast, we might have already published another deal from Citibank or Capital One or whoever. So keep your eyes out for those kind of deals because we'll be publishing them as we learn about them. For sure. For sure. And this is another reason why if you're playing a multiplayer mode, it makes sense to set things up for multiple players.

My wife has her own Amazon account and I haven't yet checked to see if she got the same offer, but if she did, that's $120 between the two of us. So just like Greg, I'm not going to mess around and wait and hope that it hangs around until prime day. We'll just save our $120 on something where we would have used the money at those stores anyway and buy a third-party gift card, I think. But yeah, I mean, that's a nice little savings in a household. So check that out, check out the post and I'll have, or Greg will, because Greg's going to be doing the podcast this week and make sure that you have a link in the show notes, I'm sure to, uh, to that post. So you can find, you know what, I forgot to mention something

really important that Amazon wants you to use your points for the entire purchase. Um, and points are redeemed at really bad value. So don't do that instead. Just use one point. Like you have to, you don't have to buy the whole thing with points. You just have to use at least one point. Now, some people have offers that require a weird number of points, more than one, like 794 points or something like that. So whatever your offer says is the minimum. That's what you got to do. So pay attention to that as well. But yeah, don't use all points. It's a bad deal. Yeah, definitely not. Just whatever the minute is. Okay, good point.

All right. So that's our deal talk. Let's move into a quick, quick award talk. So just a quick double up on award talk. I wanted to mention something. So I was trying to rebook my trip to Europe over the weekend. So I'm in Europe now. And I wanted to mention something. So I was trying to rebook my trip to Europe over the weekend. So I'm in Europe now. And I wanted to mention that we've talked about in the past how Lufthansa often releases extra award space close in. And I just wanted to confirm that that still seems to be the case. I did find four seats in first class on Lufthansa a couple of times, actually. There was only one flight that was going to fit for me. And by the time I got points transferred over, two of those first class seats were gone.

So it didn't work out for me. But I was surprised because I was watching this like a hawk in the days before departure. And two or three days ahead of time, I saw four seats on multiple flights at a different airport. Seats.aero was really helpful in finding the different options that were out there. And I was then able to double check and see that sure enough, those awards were available via Avianca and Air Canada Aeroplan. But another thing I want to mention in that regard is that there were some itineraries that I saw available via Avianca that I did not see available via Air Canada Aeroplan. And that wasn't Lufthansa first. It was business class itineraries on a number of different carriers. But there were several instances where using seats.aero, I noticed results when I pulled Avianca out of the list that I hadn't

seen with Air Canada. And sure enough, I verified it at the website and found that those awards were on Avianca and they were available via United Mileage Plus, just not via Air Canada Aeroplan. So I don't know close in if there's something specific, wacky going on with awards and which carriers they show up with, but it's a good reminder to check around. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I also, just the other day I saw I could book some Turkish business class awards with United. I didn't check Bianca yet, but not, it didn't show up on the Air Canada airplane results. So maybe you could call them bucket. I don't know. But that's really weird. I don't know what's up with that. And then the other thing I'm going to mention is that I am in Lake Como and this Grand Hotel Victoria,

you'll read about it again. Just absolutely amazing. Awesome redemption if you can find availability. I don't see availability for this place yet, but I have seen that there is another property and another SLH property in Como. So that's like kind of the Southern tip of Lake Como that I haven't seen available before with points. I've looked a number of times and I do see in June of 2024, it is available on a number of dates. So, uh, so there's a tidbit if you're looking to get to Lake Como, I don't know about that other SLH property, but the one that's in Como does appear to be available on some dates anyway in June 2024. Oh, nice. That sounds awesome. So there you go. All right. So that wraps up award talk.

So then I guess that brings us to the main event. Yes. Main event time. International First Class Awards. Are they worth paying more for? All right. So we just recently flew international first class, ANA, the suite. We flew from Tokyo to San Francisco. And we also flew a couple business class products around about the same time. And so the question on the table is like is it really worth paying more now in this example we didn't actually pay more at least in points because we got just an incredible deal on the first class flight and it was a deal that unfortunately doesn't exist right now or it became less good uh since we booked it so the price we paid isn't really relevant, I think, to this conversation.

But oftentimes, you might find international first-class awards available, and they're going to cost more than business class awards, at least if you're using the same miles to book them. So is it worth it? Good question. Well, I mean, we got a lot to talk about there, a lot to unpack.

I'm going to say at a very high level, it depends on the first class product, right? And the business class product that you're comparing against. So there's some variance there. And I guess we can talk a little bit more about that as we get to the different seat types, because I think that you'll notice a fair amount of variance in business class between various airlines, and some of them are as good or better than some first class products. And then again, when you get to the first class level, there are some that shine well above the others. And so I think that that also might make some difference. And then of course, it depends on the award charts

and the sweet spots, etc. So let's talk about the seat types first, right? Let's discuss what we're even talking about. I don't think everybody understands what the difference is between international first class and business class and whatnot. So let's start at the bottom. So economy. I think most people know what economy seats are. It's basically you have a seat and you're squeezed in tight between other people. You have very little leg room and you can't recline all that much. And that's

pretty much the same whether you're flying domestically or internationally. Yeah, it doesn't change a lot. I mean, there are some carriers that maybe have slightly better food or better service internationally. But yes, overall, the experience is more or less the same with everyone. Seats are basically the same as what you get on a domestic economy class flight. But the reason that we're going to talk about these different types of seats is because it starts to become a lot different as you move up in cabins as to the difference between what you'll find domestically and what you'll find internationally. So let's talk premium economy. So what do you get when you bump up to premium economy? Yeah. So premium economy for

international flights is more like what you might expect domestic first class to be. So you generally are getting a bigger seat. You're generally getting more recline. You're generally getting more leg room. Unlike domestic first class though, you usually with premium economy also get a foot rest. And the details of how much extra leg room, how much bigger the seats and things like that are going to vary by airline a lot. But that's basically it. You're not getting a lay flat seat. Right. Right. It's nicer.

It's going to be more spacious. And for a daytime flight, in a lot of cases, it may provide just enough extra bump over economy to make it extra comfortable without costing you a heck of a lot more if you're flying with a program that even has a premium economy award chart and cabin. So that varies a little bit, too, because not everybody has premium economy. chart and cabin. So that varies a little bit too, because not everybody has premium economy. Many do these days. And then if they have premium economy, not everybody's got a premium economy award chart. So it's not always something that you can exactly book with miles, but it is an option. And when you can take advantage of it, that's great.

Business class, though, is where things really start to change, where you notice a major difference. It's not at all similar to what you might expect within the United States for the most part, and not at all similar to the economy and premium economy experience, right? That's absolutely right. The difference between economy or premium economy and business class is huge with most airlines. And so in most cases, international business class means you have a seat that lies flat. So you've got a lot of room. You've got a way to electronically, you know, lay down the seat all the way back so that you can sleep on this thing. Usually, usually there's a better food available, uh, higher end drinks, uh, things

like that. Um, usually you get just better service overall. Again, that varies by airline, but, um, that's generally what you can expect from most. A lot of them also have direct aisle access from every seat. Now, this isn't true of all of them, but it's a lot more and more, it's become more and more common that what you have is like one seat along the window, then an aisle, then two seats in the middle, an aisle, and then another one seat. So they call that a one-to-one configuration. And that's great because you don't have to, you know, step up, climb over someone to

get to out to the aisle, to go to the bathroom or vice versa. If you don't have someone climbing over you when you're sleeping so that they could go to the bathroom. So that kind of configuration is, is a really nice. Yeah. And most of them have plenty of space so you could work comfortably at your seat at power outlet. And again, the lie flat bed is really have decent blankets and pillows and maybe even some padding for the, you know, like a mattress pad for the seat. So that makes a big difference because you can arrive fully rested. And certainly for me, someone who travels with young kids, I find it particularly helpful because it's very easy to get my kids to go to sleep on the plane because I can just recline that seat all the way into a bed. And that's a lot easier than having a kid try to sleep, like half leaning on you in economy class. So that certainly makes a big difference for us anyway.

Sure, sure. And for getting work done. Now, this isn't true of all business class projects, but usually there is more room to store stuff and put stuff on like a little table or whatever. And that to me is huge. Like, so when I flew a Delta premium economy recently on a daytime flight, it was fine, but like, there is no place, but the food tray table to put stuff down. And then if, you know, someone else on the aisle has to get up, I've got to take all that stuff off and hold it while they move out. You know, it's, it's, it's a lot of, it's very inconvenient. And then if the food comes, I mean, you have to put away everything. And depending on the business product, sometimes you don't,

because you may have enough room to have your computer out and the food out and everything all at once. And so that can be really nice and really, really, really super convenient. And I know I'm nitpicking because it's like a miracle to be flying at all, let alone lying flat on a, on an airplane. I do appreciate that very much. But yeah, there you go. It really does make a difference in my mind. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So business class, obviously, I think we both feel pretty strongly that that can be well worth the premium. And we'll talk about what those are in a minute,

or at least it's an experience that is far better than what you get in economy or premium economy in general. So there's a big difference there. But now when you get to first class, what's the difference when you get to first class, Greg? Yeah. So that's the thing. So international first class is higher up than business class. But so what do you get? So you get a live flat seat. You've got up than business class. But, you know, so what do you get? So you get a live flat seat. No, you've got that in business class, usually more room than you would get in a comparable business class. But so yeah, so you've got more room. Usually, you're talking about even a higher level of food and drink type of service. So like on some airlines, you're going to be served caviar and, and really top shelf liquor and things like

that. So if those things are important to you, that can make a big difference. But overall, I'd say that as a class or as a type of seating arrangement, it's open to interpretation what the difference is between business class and first class. It truly is. And, you know, I think that it's going to vary a little bit by airline and what you enjoy in terms of the premium experience. So I think in some cases, the service is going to be a bit more tailored to your liking and the food may be slightly higher end. Like you said, you might have access to many of those top shelf sort of liquors and champagnes, etc. But it's worth mentioning that in some cases, the difference in experience could be very slim. So just recently, Greg and I both flew in American Airlines. He flew in business and I flew in their flagship first, which they are discontinuing eventually. So in their defense, they recognize that they don't have a particularly competitive first class product. But really, the difference between business and first on that was very

slight. There's more space in the first-class seat. It's wider. So that's a little bit more comfortable. Slightly bigger tray table. The seat in flagship first actually turns sideways so you can face the wall and do your work if you'd like to. So there's a second desk. But apart from that, there was like one entree that was a little bit different. It wasn't even a particularly exciting entree. I can't recall off the top of my head what it was. And there was like one entree that was a little bit different. It wasn't even a particularly exciting entree. I can't recall off the top of my head what it was. And there was one more type of red wine and one more type of white wine, neither of which was a particularly fancy bottle of wine.

They were both California wines, and I can't recall exactly what they were, but I looked them up and neither one of them were particularly fancy. Champagne was exactly the same in business and first. So very little difference in terms of the soft product differences. The Casper bedding was nice in first class. I'll give them that. But other than that, not much difference at all. Yeah. I've flown American Airlines first class before and I flew this business class and yeah, I don't really feel like there's a tangible difference there in my experiences. Is it better? Yeah, a little bit. I wouldn't go out of my way. Very little bit. Very little bit.

Very little bit. Very little bit. But as you said, Nick, it varies by carrier. I mean, there's other carriers where it's extreme, the difference. Take Lufthansa, for example, where their business class, well, it depends on what aircraft they're flying, but a lot of their business class products are really old where the configuration is two by two by two, which means if you're not in the middle section, you are going to be climbing over someone or they're going to be climbing over you to get to the aisle. And it's just not a competitive product in any way. They're business class. First class though, you're talking about, yeah, I mean, direct aisle access, but way, way more room. You're actually a very beautiful cabin and incredible service and food and everything. And access to an entirely separate terminal if you're flying through Frankfurt,

right? There's an entirely separate first class terminal, right? So that introduces a whole nother thing. With some carriers, there are what are called ground services. So the treatment you get on the ground in the airport that is often only available to first-class passengers and not business class, or in the case of Lufthansa, they have it all staggered. So they have like, they have their first, in Germany, they have their first-class lounges. Then they have their, I think it's called Senator Lounge, which is the business class lounge for those flying Lufthansa business class, but not for those flying partner business class.

And then they have their business class lounges for the riffraff who are flying business class elsewhere. And then they, yeah, I guess that's it for class lounges for the riffraff who are flying business class elsewhere and then they uh yeah i guess that's it for their lounges but um but the first class lounge um it's not when you're flying first class it's not just the lounge which is amazing that is special it's also other things that that go around with it like, for example, at the very least, you are likely to be escorted to your plane if your plane is at a gate where you can walk inside the airport. But if your flight is out on the tarmac somewhere, you may get driven to your airplane from the turn from the uh lounge so that happened for my family and i um we were flying to paris for uh lufthansa first class through munich and uh we get off the plane in munich and we are escorted directly to the first class lounge there was no passing through immigration security type of stuff, just right into the first class lounge where they asked for

our passports. So they did all of the immigration processing for us while we enjoyed the lounge. Then they called our names and it's time to board after we'd enjoyed the lounge. And we go outside from the first class lounge. There's a door to the outside, to the tarmac, where our Mercedes and driver is waiting for us to drive us to the airplane. And the whole thing happened in reverse when we came home the same route. So that level of ground service and feeling special is both slightly embarrassing, but also just incredible and not something that you're going to get in business class like ever. Right. Well, and I want to add to that. So that the whole soft product thing, I mean, and that varies from one airline to another, but can be a huge, huge differentiator. But then also, I think I want to retouch on what

you said about the difference in product can also be pretty significant in some cases. And Lufthansa is a great example, because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you know better on this than I do, but I don't think that they're launching the new product until 2024. So I think still, to my knowledge, all of their roots are the old two by two by two business class that you're talking about and i think the in-flight entertainment screen on those is like 14 inches or something like that and you compare that to a and a the suite that we just flew and i think don't quote me but i think that's like a 48 inch or 50 inch screen or something like that it's like something ridiculous so yeah yeah, it was enormous.

Yeah, no. So let me correct you. They do have some aircraft that they, that they bought or borrowed or something from other carriers. So they have some that are flying with decent business class today. In fact, when I last checked Detroit to Frankfurt was on one of the, these other aircrafts that have a good business class. So they do have, they do have aircraft that have a good, good to know that have a better, better business class. Good to know. So, all right. And they are launching new products in the coming year that should be more competitive. So, but, but it makes for a good example anyway, in the sense that there, there can be a wide difference depending on which one you're talking about. In many cases, the difference is not huge, but in some cases, the difference can be quite big. So

it varies in terms of what it is you're after, what matters to you a little bit. So we talked a little bit about the experience there and what's different between business and first. And I think we both agree that the difference between business and first sometimes is very small. And sometimes if you value all of those other ancillary things can seem decent anyway, but it depends on the price like anything else in the world. So let's talk about the award costs and how they compare. Yeah. Yeah. So we pulled out a few little examples from award charts to see what is economy versus first business class, first class costs and everything. So let's just give a couple examples here using American Airlines, because they still publish an award chart that shows how much they

charge to fly on their partners, like to fly Qatar or Birch Airways or whoever. So American Airlines to fly to Africa from the US, this example I'm going to give, in economy, 40,000 miles. Premium economy, 65,000 miles. So they're charging a really big percentage, like over 60% more for slightly more legroom i mean that that's a surprising to me um business class 75 000 so only 10 000 more from than premium economy um so that to me is a very interesting uh comparison because like they they're pricing premium economy way higher than economy and then business class was a little bit higher than premium. And that's opposite how we describe the difference between them. So just find that kind of fascinating. No, that is because that's a huge jump. I mean, it's totally, I think,

like a no brainer to you and I, that it would be worth the 10,000 additional miles to bump up to business over premium economy, right? I mean, like that shouldn't even be a calculation, right? If you've got the miles to do it, it might even be worth buying the miles at like whatever it is that American charges if you needed the extra 10,000 miles per passenger, right? I mean, you know, I think that's a couple hundred dollars or whatever it might cost to do that. And also, I think when we look at the difference between economy and business there, so 40K for economy, 75K for business. So it's almost double, Business is almost double economy. And I think that's an interesting point comparison too, because if you think of an economy class ticket as costing,

then say, oh, I don't know. I mean, to Africa, it might be quite high. Let's say $1,000. Is business worth $2,000? Well, that's a question. I think the answer might be different for a lot of people. But I think if you have the $2,000 to spend anyway, which is to say, if you have the miles to spend, I think the difference in experience is double, in my mind anyway. I think that in general, if the cash difference between an economy ticket and a business class ticket were double, the business class ticket were double, the business class tickets cost double, then I think I would not fly too many economy flights anymore because a business to me is worth double what economy would be in most cases. And if you think about it from the airline's point of view, one business class seat is probably

taking up at least as much space as maybe four economy seats, something like that. And so the idea that it's only double and not even quite double is pretty good considering that. And if you look at cash prices in reality, the difference between an economy class ticket and a business class ticket is often seven, eight, 10 times. Yeah, it's usually much more than that. Or more, yeah. So it's a much smaller difference when you're using miles than it is when you're using money. Right, right. That's usually true.

And now first class though to Africa, and this is anywhere in Africa, using American Airlines miles from the US, 120K. So it is three times the economy price to fly first class or 60% more than business class. Now, it is quite a bump. And whether or not it's worth it, again, we go back to it's going to depend on the airline we're talking about. So I don't know that American even flies this route, but if it was American Airlines itself, obviously, you know, the answer is no, no, it's not worth it. And in a similar but different way, Cutter, Cutter has such a good business class product that even though they do fly some routes with first class, I don't think it'd be worth it there

to pay extra because you're getting such a good, a first class like experience with Cutter for the business class price. But then other airlines, it might actually make sense. Let's give an example there, because I think Cutter is an excellent example in the sense that they even market their business class as first in business, right? Because it's almost a first class life experience in business. So anybody who has flown Cutter first seems to say it's nice, but it's probably not worth a huge premium over business, especially if you're able to fly Qsuites. However, an instance where you might find it to be worth more,

and I think maybe Greg will agree with me on this, we'll see, is if you were able to fly Etihad to Africa using your American Airlines miles, and they had the apartments flying between New York and Abu Dhabi. Because then in that case, now all of a sudden, the difference between business and first class is pretty big, right? It's huge. So there are certain airlines that have first-class products that are leaps and bounds above what you'd find in business class. Etihad Apartments is one of those airlines that has that just on their A380 aircraft. And right now they're not flying it between New York and Abu Dhabi as far as I know. So this is just a theoretical example. It's a theoretical example. Right now they're only flying between London and Abu Dhabi, but who knows? Hopefully they'll bring back more of the routes. Other examples where it's like

a whole nother class of thing that you're getting is Singapore Suites. So in both of these cases, you're getting basically more like a room than a seat. There's walls that go nearly to the ceiling. You're getting a lot of space beyond just the seat. So it's really, really special in those cases. Emirates has a new product that's kind of like that. So unfortunately, I don't really have a name for it that distinguishes it from their old first, but Emirates new first, I guess. A lot of people call it the game changer first. Game changer first, which is supposed to be one of the best of the best. And Lufthansa is coming out with something like this in a year or two.

So look for that as well. We don't know if it'll be available to book with awards though, but we'll see. Right. So there are some limited instances where we might consider something like that 60% premium over the business class price. Specifically, when we're talking about using American Airlines miles, your options for flying first to Africa, correct me if I'm wrong, would be like British Airways.

And that might be it because I'm not sure that Qatar even flies any first class. Oh, Qatar. Oh, first class. Between the US. I see what you're saying. Yeah. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure that they do. So it might just be British Airways at this point that you'd have the ability. It's more of a hypothetical. Well, you could go the other way. You could fly Cathay Pacific. I mean, they've really limited how many first class- Does America allow you to route via Asia for Africa? I don't think American Airlines allows you to. Alaska did. But no, American Airlines. So American has some complicated routing rules. So yeah. But I think it's a good point in the sense that there are some different rules

in terms of which way you can go, which carriers you can use. But generally speaking, I think we would both agree that most of the time paying 60% more than the business class price for a first class experience is probably not worth it. At least in, I think in both of our opinions, right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But AA doesn't always charge that much more for first than business. This was one example. Now you mentioned to me before we started the show about their prices from Middle East to Asia. Tell me about that. Yeah. So from Middle East to Asia, and this is true of both Asia one and Asia two, if you're familiar with the American Airlines word chart, they split Northern Asia, so to

speak, which is Japan, Korea, and China is Asia 1, and then the rest of Southeast Asia is Asia 2. And the price is the same in business or first between the Middle East and either of the two Asia zones. It's 40,000 points or miles one way in business class between Middle East and Asia, and it's 50,000 one way in first class between Middle East and Asia, and it's 50,000 one way in first class between Middle East and Asia. So in that case, it's only a 10,000 mile difference between business and first. Now, I guess that's a 25% difference if you're doing percentages.

But in that kind of a case, you'll have to look then at the products that you have the option to fly. Because for instance, if they have Etihad Apartments, which is something that they have had in the past on routes to Asia, then it could certainly make like, again, a no brainer type of sense to pay the additional 10,000 miles to fly first class. So, you know, that can be worth paying the additional for. So the difference is small sometimes. Back to the Cathay Pacific example, maybe this is a better example here. I haven't flown Cathay first,

but it's gotten great reviews. And so I have flown Cathay Business, which is good, but to me, it didn't really differentiate itself from most other good business class products. I think first class would, so I would probably pay for it if that was an option. Yep, absolutely. And even if you're flying, for instance, the Etihad 777 in first class, I flew that before and I'd probably pay the additional 10,000 miles over their business class to fly in their first class just for the slightly better experience, better champagne, etc. And I

should caveat that with the fact that I haven't flown Etihad in a while now. So I don't know what cutbacks they've made and what differences there are between business and first. You'd probably have to go check your reviews in terms of your routings and whatnot. But I've used that sweet spot before I flew Cairo to Abu Dhabi to Tokyo and Etihad first years ago. So the point here, though, is that there are situations like that where the premium to fly first is not that much more. And by a similar token, when we mentioned that Greg and I both recently flew American Airlines, we flew from Sao Paulo to the United States. And the difference flying from Sao Paulo to the continental U.S. on the flight that we booked, because it can vary when you're flying American Airlines.

But on the flight we booked, it is a 10,000 mile difference between flagship business and flagship first. So I paid the additional 10,000 miles and I'll fly it one last time. In hindsight, I wish I had just saved my 10,000 miles. It wasn't even worth that much in that situation. But the point is that sometimes the difference can be quite a bit smaller than what we're talking about between business and first. Yeah. And American Airlines to Africa was one example. Let's talk about Aeroplan for a second.

So Air Canada Aeroplan. We looked at North America to Africa or South Africa specifically. So it's basically they have a combination of a zone-based and distance-based award chart. So if you fly the longest distance, uh, if you get into that, you know, most expensive band, which South Africa would surely take you to, um, then here's the prices economy, 70,000, that's way more than American, which are, but business class is 110,000 and first class 140,000. So the economy to business class is, you know, a huge jump of 50,000 points difference.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. A little more than that. And then, and then 30,000 bump from business to first. So, uh, you know, again, so that's 27%, uh, bump from business class. Uh, yeah, I mean, first of all, I wouldn't, these prices are pretty high. You could do better with some other,

with using some other miles for this example, but just to talk about relative amounts, you're talking first class is double economy and certainly can be worth way, way more. I mean, we've talked about early in the show that business class can be worth double economy easily. And so to go all the way to first class, if you can find a good product like, you know, Aeroplan, you could book, for example, Lufthansa first class, fly through Frankfurt and be, and again, a no brainer. If you have the points, I would pay the 30,000 more over business class, even though that's a lot.

And certainly compared to economy class, I think that that's really where the jaw dropping difference comes in, right? Because I don't know what Lufthansa charges for a first class ticket between the United States and Africa, but it's surely a lot. I just, I looked recently because I was looking at flights just one way from the US to Europe. And as a one way, you're always going to pay more than if you're buying around trip, but the cash prices were in the $15,000 range for a one way from New York, Washington DC to Europe in first class. So all the way to South Africa, for instance, I imagine wouldn't be far less than that, probably at least that much or more. And so that's way more than double whatever

they're charging for economy class on that route. So being able to get first class for double the economy class price, I think is one of the things that makes this hobby amazing. You could fly in first and be eating caviar and eating and drinking decent champagne. You know, whether or not it's worth the 27 percent over the business class price. Well, again, that's going to vary based on your perspective and opinion and what your business class example is. Because if you're comparing to Lufthansa business class, yeah, I think it probably is worth the 27 percent increase to fly first for the better food and better in-flight experience. If you're comparing to, say, I don't know, Turkish business class, maybe not. I don't know. Cause that has a pretty good reputation for good food, comfortable seats, et cetera. I haven't actually flown long haul Turkish business, so I can't necessarily speak from experience on that. But anyway, so I think it's going to

depend on what your options are. And the nice thing with airplane is that you have tons of different options. So lots of different airlines that you can potentially fly. So, all right. Yeah. Yeah. What about a different example? One more example. Let's talk about flying to Europe or at least maybe two more examples. So Avianca LifeMiles to Europe charges 30,000 miles in economy class, 63,000 in business class. So a little more than double the economy class price for business class. And as we've both said a couple of times already, I think that if you have the points to use, that seems reasonable to me. Paying double for business class. And as we've both said a couple of times already, I think that if you have the points to use, that seems reasonable to me. Paying double for business class. Again, if an economy class ticket to Europe from New York, because I'm an East Coast kind of a person, it's usually going

to be $500 or less each way. So if I were able to pay essentially like $1,000 for business, I would pay $1,000 for business if that was the difference in cash. Obviously, it isn't in cash. It would be far more usually in cash. So paying the double for a business class award with Avianca LifeMiles is almost a no-brainer to me. First class, they charge 87,000 miles. So it's 38% more than business class to fly first class. Now, your only option for flying first class with Avianca LifeMiles to Europe would be Lufthansa. And, you know,

is that worth the 38% premium? I don't know. What do you think, Greg? Is it worth 38% premium to fly Lufthansa first if you could? It's tough because, you know, let's say your options aren't Lufthansa's bad business class, but you could either fly one of several good business class options to Europe or Lufthansa first class to Europe. Um, you know, it's not obvious to me that, that you should definitely do that. Um, and it depends on circumstances. So if you're flying directly to Germany, um, and that's it, you're getting, you're getting off the plane in Germany, you're not going to experience many of the great ground services that Lufthansa offers. Those things happen either if you're starting your journey in first class in Germany,

or you're connecting through Germany to somewhere else. So that's got to be part of your equation. How long your layover is matters. So I would, if you had to like a six to 12 hour layover, I would be willing to pay more for sure to spend that time in Lufthansa first class lounge instead of a business class lounge, question um so those are those are the kind of things i would i would be thinking about when when doing this i i would be um more excited about flying so in in the reverse so if you're coming home from europe um booking uh and and specifically from germany especially uh booking umufthansa first will get you into not just the first class lounge, but the first class terminal.

They have their own building for those who are departing Lufthansa first class that you can go into and enjoy before your flight. And so that can be really special. Absolutely. Agreed. And I think that I also hesitate a little bit based on the flight length. So, you know, when you're talking about flights to Europe, depends on where you're starting from, you know, as somebody who's East coast based, if I'm starting from New York, I'm looking at, you know, maybe a seven or eight hour flight to

Germany. You know, is it worth a lot more to fly that seven or eight hour flight in first class? And especially if I'm connecting somewhere else in Europe anyway, you know, then I look at it and I'm like, well, I don't know, is it like, I just need a bed to sleep for six or seven hours. So if I can fly somebody else with a flat bed, I don't know if it's worth, if I can fly United Polaris, for instance, which, you, which I think we both agree is pretty nice, then why wouldn't I just do that for quite a bit less if I'm not going to get that much time to experience it? But if it's going to be a long flight to Asia or something along those lines, well, then maybe that first class experience would make more of a difference. of that, I think we should talk quickly about Japan Airlines business versus ANA First that we recently flew or AA business we talked about there. So if you're flying to Asia, for instance, and you have the option to fly in or JL business class, which we recently flew

with American Airlines miles and from the West Coast, we paid what? 60,000 miles one way in business class, right? Right, right. With American Airlines miles. American Airlines miles. And from the West coast, we paid what? 60,000 miles one way in business class, right? Right. Right. With American Airlines miles and American Airlines miles. And we, right, right. So we flew Japan Airlines. So this was two Japanese carriers. We flew Japan Airlines business class to get to Tokyo from San Francisco. And we later flew back from Tokyo to San Francisco on ANA first class. So we have recent, it's not the same carrier, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison, but we do have recent experience flying the same route, but in different directions, business class versus first class.

Here, just some quick thoughts. So Japan Airlines business class, tons and tons of leg room um very private it like had sort of walls around you doors that close if i remember right did they close yeah i think they did yeah they did um and uh and so that part was similar both both products had lots of leg room and doors that close. Both had good service. I mean, it was more extraordinary in first class, but both were very good service. The biggest physical difference is the Japan Airlines seat and suite is kind of narrow, and there's no place to put stuff. So you don't have any shelf or anything to put stuff down. It was kind of like the problem I had

with Delta premium economy. I knew where to put stuff except my tray table. And I found that very awkward. In a first class, we had endless space was, that was huge. And then of course, the level of additional, you know, food and, and, uh, drink. So we, uh, no, we didn't, we didn't, uh, try to do a whiskey tasting on the Japan airlines flight. So I, I can't tell you what level of alcohol they had there, but I'll tell you that, um, on ANA, we were, uh, we did a whiskey tasting and we were served, uh, a whiskey that if we had bought it separately, it would be over a thousand dollars a bottle. Um, and it was actually pretty fantastic and fun experience. So, so that's the type of thing that, you know, that really stands out,

but a lot of people aren't going to really value that much. Right. Right. No, I think it really varies in terms of whether or not you would find that to be interesting or exciting to do that kind of thing. And certainly if you don't drink alcohol at all, then that takes away one of the things that I think a lot of people enjoy about the first class experience is the higher end alcohols that you can try that you probably wouldn't buy or may not be likely to buy anyway on the ground. So yeah, I mean, I think, so here's, let me run an example by you. So it was 60,000 points from the West Coast to Asia, to Japan, on Japan Airlines and business class. Virgin Atlantic nowadays, I believe if I'm looking at the award chart correctly, between Japan and the Western U.S. charges 72,500 miles one way in first class.

But ANA has surcharges. So you're talking, what, $450-ish worth of surcharges. So what do you think? If your options were 60,000 American Airlines miles and like just whatever the $20 in tax or whatever it might have cost in taxes or 72,500 Virgin Atlantic points and $450 to fly ANA first class, is first class worth the premium to you? Yeah, I mean, I'm going to go with yes. You know, I love hearing Greg struggle on this

because he wrote that his conclusion, you know, in advance when he was writing this out, his thoughts on this, I know he was going to say that it's not worth paying the extra for first, but you can't help yourself. Right, Greg? I can't help myself in that case. Yeah, so I'm going to jump ahead to my conclusion because I think it's still a good the premium, the extra price to pay, unless the flight itself, the first class flight itself is part of the travel experience you're looking for. And that's where it really is such a big deal.

So all that stuff I was talking about with the Lufthansa ground services that are so good. If you're looking forward to that in itself, you want to experience what itihad or have a suite to yourself with Singapore or Etihad or Emirates. These are all things that I think, you know, that's the experience you're going for. It's not just you're trying to get from one point to another in comfort. And if all you want is to get from one place to another in comfort, usually business class is good enough. And I want to mention on that note that I find business class to be well worth it. And I know a lot of people primarily redeem their miles for

economy class. And that's great if that's the way you want to travel. If it enables you to travel more and you're happy with flying economy, that's awesome. I think it's worth mentioning, though, that what I find to be worth it for flying business class is, A, the ability to arrive rested. So I'm not jet lagged the first day usually. And maybe I'm unique in that way because I don't experience as much jet lag perhaps as some other people do. But I like arriving and knowing that I will have slept because I can sleep in those lie flat beds most of the time. And as somebody who travels with young kids, I get asked this from time to time. I saw a question come in this week about,

is it a good idea with toddlers, with young kids? Is it worth it, et cetera? And to me, at this point, I can't imagine flying a 10 or 11 or 12 hour flight with my kids in economy class because the extra space in business class or first, obviously, but certainly in business is so clutch to me because, you know, there's more room for them to move around without bothering anybody else in the cabin. It's easier to lay them down and get them to go to sleep by themselves without leaning over on anybody else. And then, you know, I'm not stuck in that position where, oh man, if I move a little bit, I'm going to wake them up and they're going to be crying and et cetera. So I find it to be a much, much better experience for traveling with kids.

It makes my life a lot easier. It makes it far easier for us to travel to Europe or to Asia with the kids because of those abilities to have that extra space. So I totally find it well worth it. And I think Greg does, too, in terms of comfort to fly in at least business class. Now, I do get excited about those first class amenities. So I am somebody who would get excited about, oh man, I'm going to get this treatment on the ground and get this extra special this or that in first class in the sky. Is that something I'm going to pay for all the time? No, probably not. And a lot of times it's not even going to be a possibility. With Lufthansa, for instance, they only release

availability for their first class cabin within like 15 days of travel and sometimes even only within two or three days. So it's not even something that's practical for a lot of people in most cases. But I find the difference between economy and business. I find business to be totally, absolutely worth it to me internationally. Domestically, not so much. So that's good. I think that brings us to the end of the main event and i have a question of the week oh if you don't well i do it was related to this but if you have a question go ahead you go with your question and maybe i'll add one here's a question this is a this is a fictional question okay from joe somebody who listens to the podcast all right are you guys completely out of touch? You guys talk about buying business class flights to everywhere. What do you have conversations about?

Like what car to get? Do you talk about why you settle for a BMW when you could be driving a Lamborghini? What is wrong with you guys? I don't have that many miles. I can't fly business class all the time. So that's a realistic question given what we've been just talking about. That's an excellent question. And I think that obviously Greg and I focus a lot of our time and effort on earning lots of miles. And so we earn tons of miles each year using lots of the various

techniques that we write about on the blog. So we do earn more miles than most people. And that's through a variety of means. If you look up our various resources on ways to increase spend to get most of it back, our manufactured spending complete guide, the ways to pay taxes with your credit cards, there's a lot of different resources that we have out there. If you click on our resources page for earning more miles, we earn miles through referring people to new cards, including our own family members to new cards and obviously new card welcome bonuses whenever we can so uh so we do focus a lot on that people sometimes ask how much time do i spend doing that kind of thing and i do spend quite a bit of time focusing on ways that i could be earning more miles but that's because i really enjoy these experiences that

they give me i mean i just flew to Europe in business class for passengers, something I would never spend the money on. Even if I felt like I had the money to afford that, I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't fly that. I wouldn't take the trip if I couldn't have done that with miles. So I just flew my family to Europe. I'm staying at a hotel that I've written about before that the base room this week costs $1,750 a night. There's just no world I can imagine where I'd be paying that. But because I'm using miles and points, I'm able to do it. So I'm motivated to earn as many miles and points as I can because I enjoy these experiences and I want to have them. Hotel Mat Now is fantastic. It's amazing. It's a place I'd love to come back to again. So I want to focus on the ways to earn

those points. And we write quite a bit about those, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's what we're all about. This is a ways to earn miles. And as our tagline, earn miles without flying. I mean, most of the best ways to earn miles do not involve earning them through travel. Instead, you earn them other ways, and then you spend them to travel. And that's how you get your luxury travel for less or just more economy travel for less, either one, whichever floats your boat. But yeah, at some level, I do feel like it must sound like we're way out of touch. Oh, yeah. But it's not because we're bloggers that we magically have all these miles. It's because we do the things that we talk about and write about. Right, right.

We put them into practice all the time. That's where it comes from. And it's not a case of me buying business or first class tickets. I don't buy cash business or first class tickets, at least not with money from the bank. If anything, maybe with points, if there's some way to leverage points in that way. But yeah, so it's not like a world that I exist in because I'm willing to spend the money for it. It's a world I exist in because I'm willing to put in the time to earn the miles to make it happen. So that's a great point.

And one that certainly, like you said, Greg, I'm sure it does sound out of touch in the sense that none of my friends are paying for business in first class and fancy hotels. It's not the social world I exist in by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure the travels that we do sound ridiculous to the people in our family and our, you know, our friends. But, uh, but again, that's, that's why we play this game and why we write about it and why this is what we do for a living is talking about ways that you can do it too. So, and lots of people do, cause we hear from readers all the time that are able to do. In fact, just at breakfast this morning, a reader came up to me here at the hotel who said, Hey, thanks so much for writing about this place and, and for, uh, writing when

there was availability because they were able to take advantage of it and, and, you know, be here this week also. So it happens all the time. So, all right, I'm going to tag one more question of the week on because it's relevant to today's topic. And it was from a couple of weeks ago, but it was a good one. So somebody wrote in and said,

hi, I jumped on the past United Awards sale and booked 30,000 mile awards due to being a gateway cardholder for my family from Houston to Sydney over Thanksgiving next year. I have no elite status with United. So the thirty thousand mile awards were an economy class from Houston to Sydney, Australia. It says there's no status with United. I do have gold status with American Airlines and an offer to buy up to platinum for like thirteen hundred and fifty dollars if I status match. So if I buy up to high level status with American Airlines and I status match to United, do I have a decent shot at an upgrade from economy to presumably to business class?

I wouldn't normally consider buying up, but am I going to be able to get upgraded? So we've been talking all about this great difference between economy and business class. So is elite status going to help you get upgraded to that experience internationally? Yeah, this is a great question. It's really easy to answer. No, it's not going to help you get upgraded to that experience internationally? Yeah, this is a great question. It's really easy to answer. No, it's not going to help you at all. No. Airlines, airline elite status, in most cases, helps you get free upgrades for domestic flights or short distance international flights.

Like to the Caribbean. Exactly. short distance international flights, hardly ever for any long distance overseas flights. And when they do, it has more to do with earning some kind of upgrade instrument, which you're not going to get from a status match. And then, so you're not going to have that upgrade certificate to apply. So no, it's not going to help you, but it's great that you asked and found out ahead of time. And I think that that fits in today's conversation, right? Because we're talking about flying business and first.

And so if you've ever thought to yourself, oh man, I should chase elite status so that I can fly international business class and get upgraded to international business class. That's just not something that's going to happen. That's a world that's available to you with miles, but not in most cases with elite status. So keep that in mind. All right. That brings us to the end of today's show. If you've enjoyed today's episode and you'd like to get more of this stuff in your email inbox each day or each week, you want to go to frequentmiler.com slash subscribe. Again, that's frequentmiler.com slash subscribe. Join our email list, follow us on all the various social media and wherever

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