Frequent Miler on the Air - Delta miles are worth more than AA miles. Whaaat?

Episode Date: March 20, 2021

00:47 Giant Mailbag 3:17 What crazy thing.....did Choice Privileges do this week? https://frequentmiler.com/wacky-choice-promo-8k-points-if-you-stay-this-weekend-or-next-weekend/ 9:18 Mattress running the numbers: 3 Wyndham nights gets 7500 bonus points. Is that worth enough? https://frequentmiler.com/wyndham-rewards-q2-2021-promo-earn-1000-7500-bonus-points-per-stay-ends-5-31-21/ 11:55 Main Event: Delta miles are worth more than AA miles. Whaaat? https://frequentmiler.com/what-are-delta-miles-worth/ https://frequentmiler.com/what-are-united-miles-worth/ https://frequentmiler.com/what-are-american-airlines-miles-worth/ 45:38 Post Roast: Reverse roast of Amex post https://frequentmiler.com/reader-question-reveals-9-things-you-ought-to-know-about-amex-cards/ 47:53 Post Roast: IHG Rewards complete guide https://frequentmiler.com/ihg-rewards-complete-guide/ 54:48 Question of the Week: Are you on T-mobile yet? If not, why not? https://frequentmiler.com/t-mobile-is-doing-it-again-another-free-line-promo-starts-tomorrow-3-17/

frequent miler on the air starts now today's main event it turns out that delta miles are worth more than american airlines or united what get out of here greg it sounds to me like someone is reaching for a reason to justify spending for delta elite status. You've got to be crazy. Right? Now, in the main event, we will explain that, that crazy thing I just said. We will also get into a debate, should we change the way we're valuing points and miles? And this all came up this week big time because some numbers that we presented showed Delta ahead.

And so that's obviously wrong, so we need to fix it. Or at least we're going to argue that. First, of course, we've got the giant mailbag. Reach in. Reach in there. What are the people saying this week? Okay, here it is. Okay, today's mail is from Apple Podcast Review. This is from Goob6008.

Goob6008. Nice to meet you. Yeah, I don't know if there's so many other Goobs out8. Goob6008. Nice to meet you. I don't know if there's so many other Goobs out there that Goob just got assigned that number. Or if there's something special about it. First come, first served, if you want to be Goob. Yeah. But Goob says, best travel rewards podcast. I look forward to this podcast every week. I even pretend to do yard work to sneak off and listen to this.

My wife doesn't share my enthusiasm for the subject and my daughter is too noisy. Anyway, it's become a Saturday morning ritual. These guys are super detail oriented and informative. Keep up the good work. Well, thank you. I totally agree. It is the best travel rewards podcast, isn't it? I mean, it's the best one that I'm on anyway, right? It's by far the best one you're on. That's right.

And yeah, I just love this, you know, the part about him sneaking off to pretend to do yard work. That's hilarious. I got to take a page out of that playbook. I think. Right. Like when I listen to podcasts, I sometimes do do it while I'm doing chores, like, you know,

doing the dishes in the kitchen or something. I put in the headphones and listen to a podcast. And so I could totally see why yard work would be the perfect excuse. It's long enough for our show, which tends to be an hour longer. So yeah, that's a great way to do it. You know, I believe, I could be wrong, but I believe this is our 90th show.

Wow. Yeah, 90. So we do these weekly. So you know what that means? It means we're not that far from two full years of this. Two years. That's a lot of yard work Goop's been doing. That's a lot of yard work. Goop's going to need a bigger lawn. His wife's probably wondering when there's three feet of snow outside, what kind of yard work Goop

is doing. But yeah, no, no. Almost two years of putting up with you i i deserve a medal or something like that touche touche two years anyway shall we shall we move on to we should to what crazy thing did greg do this week he said delta miles were worth more than no no no okay sorry i got off track we're coming back that. What crazy thing did choice privileges do this week, Greg? Yeah. Well, you're the one who wrote about it. So you're going to have to tell us all about choices craziness. What did they do? They've got a great promo out right now,

or at least somebody in the marketing department thought it would be a great idea to get everybody to want to stay at choice hotels by offering 8,000 bonus points for weekend stays. Now they did say weekend. It doesn't sound too bad, right? You got to stay a Friday and a Saturday night, except it's valid for two weekends. Like they released a promotion and sent out an email for a promotion that's valid if you stay this weekend, Friday and Saturday, which by the time you're hearing this podcast, it's too late because you had to check in already and next weekend. So two weekends only the two weekends left in March. If you stay either of those weekends at a choice privileges property or both,

you'll get 8,000 bonus points on top of the base points that you ordinarily earn. Now, I looked at that and I said to myself, what? Like, what? Does that make you want to run out and have like a quality in, you know, some quality, quality in getaway this weekend, Greg? Well, you know, when they put promotions that are like off in the future, that gives me enough time to realize that I really don't want to do it. So this one is like, gets you excited. And then it's like, I'm going to run out and do it. And then you don't have any time to realize, oh, wait, that's a really bad idea.

It's like, who doesn't have plans for this weekend at this point? You have to register for this thing too. You have to register. You have to register before you check out. So I guess you could, if you're in a choice hotel right now and you stayed there Friday night and it's now Saturday, March, Saturday, register before you check out and stay until stay until at least Sunday, because you got to stay both Friday and Saturday night for the next two weekends. One of the other. You don't have to do both weekends, of course. So I remember a kind of funny little nugget from your post that there's some list, there's some unspecified number of hotels that are not included in this. Oh, yeah.

It's like this group isn't included in that group isn't included among others. Among others? Like, what do you mean among others? Who are the others? Right, right. That would be kind of important to know, wouldn't it? If you're going to book a hotel in order to earn 8,000 points, you'd want to know who the others are that are not participating in this promotion.

So yeah, so you have no idea. You're like, you're rolling the dice. It's like, you know, rolling the dice to see if you even are staying at a hotel that qualifies because nobody's going to tell you. And goodness knows if you call a choice privileges agent, they aren't going to know. So total roll the dice. And I'm like, okay, I know people are getting back out and traveling somewhat. I get that. I know a lot of people aren't traveling yet. And I know that whether you are the type of person who is traveling right now, or the type of person who is not, you probably already had your mind made up on that before Thursday of this week,

right? Like, you're pretty firm in one camp or the other by Thursday. And you had a reservation already if you were going somewhere this weekend, I imagine. Maybe I'm wrong. Choice is I'm wrong. You would think, but I don't know. Yeah, this is crazy. So let's say let's say you decided to do it is it is it worth it is is uh so you're getting what 8 000 points right uh plus whatever points you would earn for the stay normally which is unusual for a choice promo usually they they just sort of fill up they give you how many you'd normally earn and then add on the little bit to make it go up to the 8,000, right? Right. Exactly. Exactly. This is very atypical. I saw that I actually had written that the 8,000 would be instead of earning points and not on top of,

I just wrote that in the post without even reading the terms. Cause that's just the way choice promos are. And then I said, you know what, let me take a quick look at the terms. And I was like, well, would you look at that choice? Throwing me a curve ball here. Didn't expect it. 8,000 points on top. Is it worth it? No, of course it's not. Of course not. So even if you had a weekend stay that in total costs $80. Right. Which is the cheapest you can pay because you have to pay at least $40 a night before tax. So you're not paying any less than 80 and it's going to be 80. Right. And so let's say after tax, it comes to a little bit more, but the point is like, even with the points you get normally, plus these 8,000, you're, you're at best, like the best you could do is basically buy points for a penny each. Right. Right. And,

and that would be a miracle if you got it exactly to that and it happened to qualify. And guess what? Simply by booking and canceling cash and points days, you can buy points for less than that. Right. Right. You can and you should and you should not do this promotion. I mean, if you're already staying at a choice privileges property, I mean, of course, register for it. Take your points.

I just don't understand. I mean, of course, register for it. Take your points. I just don't understand. I mean, they didn't have to print anything. So I guess they didn't waste any money on promoting this, I guess. But I look at it and I'm like, it's not worth the paper. It's written on kind of a thing. And it's not even on paper. It's in an email form.

And you have to stay the whole weekend? Both days. Yeah, one hotel. So it's not. See, I was going to say, like, I could totally see this for people who are road tripping, who are like, I don't care where I stay. I'll make a choice property instead. But I'm not going to say two nights

at a, you know, highway side hotel. That just happens to be on my way, right? Right. No, I mean, I guess choice privileges is banking on you doing exactly that. They think you're going to extend your stay on the side of the highway for an extra night.

So you can get your 8,000 points, Greg. I mean, you know, hey, they're just trying to... the i-40 uh whatever uh hotel yeah right yeah that would be yeah so that would be nice i don't know i don't get a chance i don't get a choice i don't get it but fine all right so so uh i kind of venture i realized as i was we were doing that kind of ventured into uh our next thing or the mattress running the numbers I did that by accident you did because that was not just running the numbers it was what crazy thing wasn't intended to be it was crazy yeah yeah it didn't make any sense

mattress running the numbers I mean we did just run the numbers there and you shouldn't match that one but but let's mattress run something else okay like I want to choose something different so so Wyndham is out with a great promotion. Perfect inflection there. You can earn 1,000 to 7,500 points per stay. So let's talk about the 7,500 points per stay. That's for saying three nights. So you stay one night, you get 1,000.

Two nights, you get 3,000. Three nights, 7,500. This is all together. They are really banking on you extending that highway side stay, aren't they? They are. The three nights is where you're getting the most points per night. 7,500 points all together. 2,500 points a night. that's 2500 a night right yeah so uh do we even

need to run any numbers here i mean let's let's let's generously call window points a penny each just generous math easy right we're talking about a 25 rebate per night. It's obviously nowhere near mattress run worthy. And I wouldn't normally value them that high. So yeah, two thumbs down, right? Yeah, definitely. Nope. Done with that one. Sorry, Wyndham. Again, if you're staying at a Wyndham property, register. Might as well get the points. Absolutely. The weird thing, as Steven Pepper pointed this out, is they've done a bunch of these promotions in the past where you only had to stay like two nights and you got 7500 points. And now, OK, maybe they're expecting travel to recover some. So maybe they don't feel like they have to push as hard to get people to stay.

But I don't know if they're really I don't know if Wyndham's got it like that. Let's put it this way to to make you have to stay three nights instead of two i don't think that a worse promotion than their typical promotion is the smart play right now of course when they didn't ask me but who am i yeah no i don't get it i don't get it you know meanwhile hyatt is giving us what five thousand or no i don't remember how many points a lot a lot more points than this so three night every 10 nights yeah i mean come on it's wyndham you're playing games here gets here get your act together all right and and hyatt points are worth so much more so yeah yeah do the hyatt promo if you're in the market to stay somewhere okay uh time for that main event let's talk about why delta miles are worth more stop it greg stop it oh then united

or american Airlines miles. We're living in a dream world. Frequent Miler, one of my favorite blogs, wrote that Delta miles are worth 1.2 cents each. And they wrote that American Airlines miles are worth only one cent each. What's going on? That's not what Frequent Miler wrote. I'm sure that that's what maybe you read, Greg, or somebody read. That's not exactly what Frequent Miler wrote. I'm sure that that's what maybe you read, Greg, or somebody read.

That's not exactly what Frequent Miler wrote. It's, you know, okay, it's close to being sort of ish what Frequent Miler wrote. But the key here is that you wrote these posts because we're trying to figure out how to value airline miles, right? Because in the past, you had developed what I think was by far the best way to value points and miles. And that was with a reasonable redemption value. And, you know, it's easy to get caught up in what that is and to sometimes make the mistake of thinking that the value of a mile is how much it's worth. And so this is how much cash it's worth.

And that's not really what the goal of reasonable redemption values was in the beginning. The whole idea of the reasonable redemption values was to give you an idea of what you can reasonably expect to get as like a floor level. If you don't put too much effort in, you're not going to live and breathe this stuff and look up awards all the time and try to just hunt and pack for the best possible values. This is what you can expect to get, generally speaking. So that's where you kind of started with this, but we got off the rails. We did. So we started using these values for a lot of things. And for example, when you look at our best category bonuses page, the page that shows you which card to use at grocery stores,

which card to use at gas stations, all that kind of stuff. We have in our credit card displays, you know, what the sort of percent rebate is for each type of spend. And we are using the reasonable redemption value to calculate that. But by doing that, we're saying that the R ROV is the cash equivalent value for the points, meaning basically you're equally happy. So let's say the reasonable redemption value for ultimate rewards is 1.5 cents per point. We're basically saying you're equally happy to have either 1.5 cents or one chase point. And that's kind of when you look at cash equivalence, that's what it means. It's not really about the redemption value. But we got tied to that. We need that information, right? Like

that's a key to a bunch of our posts, a lot of things we do with it. Trying to explain to people, like we could have two separate numbers, but trying to explain to people in every situation why we have one number over here and a different number over there, it'll be way too confusing. Nightmare, nightmare for the average person that's taking a look at it that's not like thinking about this stuff all the time from nine different angles. I mean, it just wouldn't make any sense. Right, right. So the good is better than great, right? Or at least good is better than perfect. And so a couple of years ago, we kind of put a bandaid on it.

What we did is we said, all right, the current rates, if people are going to be using it as a cash equivalent are too high, let's account for, we weren't previously accounting for the fact that when you book an award, you don't earn miles on those flights. So we just, you know, subtracted 7% from our RV values to come up with new numbers that felt better as far, like they were closer to what we could accept as cash equivalents um so now the other thing that happened so the original rvs were based on almost almost entirely just on logic as a as opposed to observing the world at least when it came to airline miles. So what we did is we said, oh, look,

with airline miles, you can book round trip economy awards within the US for 25,000 miles, because that was the standard in almost all the programs. For years and years, for a long, long, and that's how they would advertise the cards on the plane, they tell you that you get enough miles for two round trips in the United States with 50,000 mile offer or something like that. Right. So, I mean, that was the standard for a long, long time. Exactly. Exactly. And even foreign programs often did that. We're using those foreign miles to book a flight in the United States was often that same price.

So so we we said, OK, well, we've read elsewhere that most awards are domestic economy awards. And so let's put these two things together, look up the average cost of U.S. domestic roundtrip awards, basically divide by 25,000. And that's a reasonable redemption value, whatever you get by doing that. And, and so, you know, that calculation back when came up with 1.4 cents per mile, when we adjusted it down by 7%, it was 1.3. But then over time, what happened was airlines dropped that 25,000 mile thing. You know, Delta did it first. They did away with award charts and started tying their flights more and more over time to the cash price.

Their award prices are closely tied, although it's not a formula. So you can't like figure out one from the other, but they're closely tied to cash prices. And then United did the same. And American, even though American still has award charts, they have these web special awards and they price just like Delta and United, they price flights with web special awards, however they want. So web special awards could be a cheap price. It

could be a high price. It's all over the map. And the point is this whole notion of 25,000 round trip is gone. And so using that to as a basis for our RVs just makes no sense anymore. No, no. And it's been that way for a little bit. You know, we kind of been talking about it and hemming and hawing about it because, you know, it just, it can, became a sliding scale after a while. Once, once Delta did away with their award charts really, and then, you know, then United and American weren't far behind that really, you know, for a while now has made it questionable and difficult. And, you know, it's hard because what do you do to determine what the points are worth? Right. And obviously,

this week, Greg did some work towards that. But I mean, truthfully, even if you could physically look up every flight from every airport, both cash and award price and somehow average that all out, it really wouldn't be useful information for most people because most people are going to be living in a large major market. One of the markets that Greg did this week, but then you might not be. And maybe you're flying to some small market or you're flying internationally or flying here or there. It's going to vary so much from person to person. And the key point is that, you know, we're trying to nail down an amount that is reasonable to expect. And for you to say, OK, if I'm getting less than this, maybe I shouldn't be redeeming miles. And if you're getting this much or more than OK, I'm getting a good deal and that's fine. And that's, it's still a murky number, no matter what, it's going to be hard because there's so much potential variance. Although you found less variance than I expected in some of your searches. Yeah. I mean, the airlines have, have for, I was going to say for better or worse, but largely for worse, I think have, have significantly, as I said before, tied the award price now to the cash price.

Actually, you could argue it's for the better because as cash prices go down, so do the award prices. And so people aren't getting as gouged as they used to get when cash prices were low. Anyway, I don't think we should go into the full details of what I did, but rather, let's just suffice to say, I came up with a methodology to estimate how much real-world word prices for economy flights within the US, how much value you get using your miles for economy within the U.S., right? And the results were, so remember, before we had 1.3 as the reasonable redemption value, this methodology of looking at real world data brought Delta down to 1.2. That wasn't too shocking. I mean, for a while, a lot of people thought, well, Delta should be lower than the other airlines. They're known to have higher award

prices. So this was a reasonable finding. And Delta happened to be the first one I did. But then I did United and American Airlines, and United came in at 1.1 cent per mile. So that's a pretty significant drop from the 1.3. And American came in at 1.0. 1.0, one cent per mile. Now, that, first of all, obviously seems a bit surprising because you wouldn't expect American miles to be worth that much less than Delta miles. I mean, less than Delta miles at all would probably come across as a surprise to many listeners who are used to redeeming a lot of award tickets. But then furthermore, I think it begs the question, and we'll get into this in a second, I'm sure, does this make any sense? Because

anyone who knows much about award charts knows that there are tons of options to get way more than one cent per mile in value. When I look at a welcome bonus on an American Airlines credit card of like 60,000 miles. I always think of that in terms of that's enough miles for one way business class to Asia or one way business class to Europe or whatever. And, you know, those types of international business class tickets are often in the thousands of dollars. So to look at that and say, well, that 60,000 miles is only worth $600. That just doesn't, doesn't make any sense to me right so so there's so there's two big problems and we could debate the like how i did the analysis and you know which particular numbers

i collected but but i don't i don't think the results like if we change it up are going to be that different and it results in two problems what so one problem is Delta coming out ahead of American and United when we know that those kind of flights that you're talking about, international business class, are way cheaper to book with American, cheaper to book with United, not as cheap as with American, but way cheaper than Delta, and Delta is the most expensive for those. So we know if that's how you're going to use your miles, it would be a disaster to,

to look at frequent milers numbers and say, Oh, Delta is better. So I'm going to collect those miles. I think that's the scariest part right there. What you just said, cause and that's the part of the, the, the followup post you wrote that stood out to me the most was the thought of a person that is not terribly familiar with this stuff coming to our blog and looking at it and saying, oh, wow, Delta miles are worth the most. So I should get a Delta credit card and spend on the Delta credit card because those miles are worth more than everybody else's. Right. Right. And that, so that's obviously a big problem. The other problem is not so much the relative values of these three, but

they're all, well, with maybe the exception of Delta, just too low if we're going to use them as cash equivalents. I do not believe that American miles are only worth a penny each. Again, using this business class example, we get so much more value. And the truth is I would buy them at one cent each. Like, I mean, maybe I would, you know, if you're a manufacturer spender, maybe not. But generally speaking, if I wanted to take a trip to Asia, $600 is probably reasonable for an economy class ticket. So darn right, I would buy them at one cent each to fly business class if they were only one cent each. Right. I mean, that would be like the deal of the year if they were just selling them for a penny

each. That's too low as a cash equivalent. And what it's going to do, it's also going to encourage people to pick, for example, cash back instead of airline miles. So for example, if you're looking at a, a, uh, 65,000 point American Airlines signup bonus versus a, um, uh, $650, um, cash signup bonus, um, and you're planning a trip to Asia, like you were talking about, um, you know, with the American Airlines one, you've got a business class ticket to get there. You don't have enough to get back. But the point is, you're not even anywhere close with the cash money. So it depends what you want to do with it. But you're going to be making bad decisions because we have it too low. So. Right. Right. And compounding on that was a point that a reader

made in a comment that stuck out at me that said that they'd given up completely on miles and they were focusing on cash back because they said it's useful to know now that they've looked at your numbers and seen what miles are worth. They said it's useful to know that Chase Ultimate Rewards are now worth no more than one point three cents each. And the pay yourself back is the best value redemption. That's what they got out of you running these numbers for the airline miles. And clearly I hope for most people listening clearly for you and I, that is not true. Now the pay yourself back is good. And I think a lot of people should think about the one and a half cents, pay yourself back. But it is definitely far, far, far, far, far from clear to me that that is the best possible option. It's not the best possible option in all scenarios. Now, for some people, it might be. I mean, cashback is good. I think there's arguments to be made for that and all that jazz. But there are so

many opportunities to do much better than that with ultimate rewards points. Like, right, right. Talking about floor values here where you can reasonably expect to redeem. And it's tricky because, you know, we're talking about these things like business class to Asia or, you know, we can talk first class redemptions and blah, blah, blah. And for some people listening, they're like, oh, yeah, of course, that's how I use my miles. But I would say that for more people listening than those people imagine, that's not how I use my miles. But I would say that for more people listening than those people imagine, that's not how they use their miles. I mean, the bottom line is that most people do redeem for domestic economy class. They don't advertise the American Airlines credit card on

an American Airlines flight is giving you enough miles for business class to Asia because they know that most people aren't going to use them that way. That's not going to draw in the average consumer. Average consumer is going to use them on domestic economies. That's why they always say, Oh, two round trip, you know, economy class tickets or whatever. So you have, we have to recognize that most people will redeem their miles domestically, but at the same time,

not wickedly undervalue these welcome bonuses in ways that just aren't realistic either. So it's a catch 22. It's difficult. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the thing is in an ideal world, we would, we would come up with a range of values. Like, like say you're this, these miles are worth from this to this for this type of purpose for like economy, us flights, it's worth from this to this for this type of thing. And that would be great. But it's not, for one, it's not something that would be easy to put together. But for two, secondly, we need, for our blog, we need point estimates. And, you know, because we have them in our credit card displays, we have them in different posts, we use them to show unbiased information. Like, so for example, we sort credit card offers from best to worst based on our estimate of the first year value, which includes our valuation of the airline miles, if it's an airline card and so we need a point estimate

whatever we do is not going to be perfect there's no right answer to this right right the best we could do is get better than where we are right now and we don't want to just make it up talking you know we don't want to just pull a number out of the sky like i mean there are there are blogs that do that they're just gonna most do yeah. They're just kind of most do. Yeah. Right. They're just like, Oh, this is about what they're worth. They think, you know, don't have any basis for it. Uh, you know, you won't, I think you won't see this level of thought explained on most blogs in terms of how they valued the points. Right. I mean, in fact, I don't spend that much time thinking about it. Right. In fact, until, until I did this analysis, I think if you ask most bloggers, which miles should

I use for my domestic economy flight? I don't think Delta would be the first thing that they think of. Not that that's the end all. I said that there's ways you could argue about the methodology. But the point is, everybody assumed Delta miles are worth less. It's not necessarily true. Interesting also, by the way, since we're talking about domestic economy and the value of miles, and you found the Delta were the best out of the three major legacy carriers at 1.2 cents. When I looked at that, I said to myself, all right, so should the vast majority of our listeners who primarily redeem miles and points for domestic economy class be collecting only JetBlue and Southwest points? I know, I thought about that.

Well, I mean, I think it goes back to the recommendation to use transferable points because you could, at least from Chase, you could transfer to Southwest and a number of programs you could transfer to JetBlue. And that way, when those programs are the best for you, yeah, you'll do it. But yeah, I think it does say to me more often, if you could get the same number of miles in those programs as you can Delta or United or American, and that's your main use is to fly domestically, I bet you would do better, probably significantly better with those programs. Yeah, and it's also interesting because the methodology, while I think was very good,

as you've said a few times, it's far from perfect because it's very difficult to determine these point values. When you look at the fact that, for example, Greg found that Delta miles were worth the most, but that's worth the most in comparison to Delta's prices, which to be fair, I mean, you may want to pay the Delta price for the Delta product, but if you're the type of person who's just looking to find the best value ticket from your airport to where you're going, you're not necessarily going to be considering Delta if they're the most expensive. And you found that Delta did on average have the most expensive prices comparatively. So while their miles were worth more towards their cash price, they weren't necessarily worth more compared to the cheapest option from each airport pair.

That's right. That's right. In fact, to make things kind of really crazy, while American had the lowest point value compared to its own prices, the average award cost across these same data points, you know, American, United Delta, American charged the least on average. That's because I was comparing American's cash prices, which were also the least than the other two. And so, you know, from that point of view, having American miles is better because you'll get more trips out of it. And truthfully, I feel like that is probably likely to be a better fit for the average consumer. I mean, I think that there are some people who surely would

prefer Delta over the other options. But at the same time, if they're looking at a new card bonus of say 70,000 points and you know, they can get five flights versus getting eight flights with the same number of American airlines miles. I think they probably, the average consumer probably want the eight flights. And I just made those numbers up. I didn't actually do the math, but probably most people would like to take more trips on their miles. Right? Yeah. Well, you know, it's, it's complicated. And as an aside, of course, transferable points, again, Chase Ultimate Awards, for example, if you have the Sapphire Reserve, you could book the flights at 1.5 cents value. So it would take way less Chase points to book those American flights than

American miles to book those same flights. The other thing to point out, and I didn't, I didn't write this up, but I noticed as I was collecting the data, the American airlines flights were the least convenient. Like, so I often, so I had some criteria, like I had this imaginary person flying to another city and, you know, a bunch of cities and, and the idea was they're trying to make it to a late dinner. And very often with American, I either had to show up later than I wanted to, or even more often I didn't want to get to the airport too early. You know, the idea is this person doesn't want to have to get up at three in the morning to make a, you know, 6 a.m. flight. And but I found myself with American saying, all right, in these cases, I need to do the

530 a.m. flight because it's saving so much money over this other one or there's nothing else. No other good ones. I don't know why that was, but but that's what I saw a number of times with American. So it's not the same product is what you're ending up with. Well, true. Yeah, that is a good point that it isn't. And, you know, when I get lost in all this, I also kind of think back to a comment I made on Twitter a few weeks ago when somebody complained about Delta Miles not being valuable. And I can't remember exactly what they said.

Maybe they were talking about international business class or something. And I said, well, you know, you can't like you can't need a Phillips head screwdriver and a flathead screwdriver and complain that your Phillips head screwdriver is a bad tool because it won't turn the flathead screw. It's not a bad tool. It's just not the right tool for the job. If your job is international business class redemptions, I think we'll find that Delta miles are not typically your best choice. Right. For domestic economy, they certainly may be, but again, they may not be. Chase points at

one and a half cents each certainly look to be the best possible option for booking domestic flights. And now when I think, I think when you consider the fact that you also earn miles on those flights, I feel like the Sapphire Reserve at one and a half cents each. Really good point. Starting to look a lot better than collecting airline miles. And I don't think that that's a big surprise

to most people who listen to this. I think most people probably are familiar with the fact that the welcome bonus is what's worth going after on those airline cards. It's not worth spending at one mile per dollar. And we're definitely not going to find a surprise that, oh, wow, we should spend at one mile per dollar. That was clearly not going to happen. So I don't think we expected that. I just don't think that we expected to be quite so low in how they- Right, right. Now, on the plus side, as far as these programs go with

booking economy flights is there were ranges, right? So what I showed was the median. American values went up to 1.6. There were some, I saw at least one flight that had a 1.6 cents per mile value. So that would be an example where it would do a little bit better than Chase points. And Delta went up to 1.7. So that's an example where, for example, if you had an Amex membership awards points, and you saw an award like that on Delta, you might actually want to transfer your points and book it that way. Right. So there are times when it might be the right tool for the job. But a lot of times, I'm thinking that that your domestic airline miles programs, it's funny, because, you know, we really had said that conventional wisdom has long been that if you want to book a flight on say American airlines,

you don't want American airlines miles, or, you know, if you want to fly, book a flight on Delta, you don't want Delta miles. But then we found that kind of got turned on its head, right? Cause everybody's got this variable pricing. And so we just a few weeks ago on the show talked about how, well, it's not necessarily true anymore with a lot of programs. You do want their own miles to fly in them. And now I feel like my perspective is changing yet again on that. The best use of airline miles in general, I feel like is probably not flying on those airlines after all, except maybe Delta. Delta domestic economy is, I think, probably going to be the best use of Delta miles. Although we'll see, because I think your idea for doing a blend,

for doing a hybrid, is a really interesting one. I don't know if it's the perfect. So it's definitely not the perfect solution, because there is no perfect solution. Best solution out of the options that we have at this point. But I think that's interesting. So you think that has promise. What do you expect to find? And can you explain maybe for those who didn't read the

post yet, what the blended approach is theoretically? Yeah. So the idea is to try to estimate the value of these miles for booking international business class awards. So flying to Europe, flying to Asia, flying to Australia, for example, just to name three examples. And so we would estimate them with across the different programs to say, all right, it tends to be on average worth this much for international business class. And I expect those numbers on all three programs to be significantly higher than the economy, domestic US flights came out to be. But I also expect that, you know, that Delta's, even though Delta will be, will likely have a higher value for business class that the, it'll be much lower than what American and United end up with is my expectation, but we'll see. But so the idea is we come up with that number. We still have the

domestic number. And we basically combine the two of them in a way basically saying, all right, if someone spends, for example, three quarters of their miles for domestic US and 25% for international business class, then what is the new average? And that would be the blended average. And so I'm kind of waiting to actually collect the data to say, what is that number? Is it 75%? Is it 80? Is it 60? And the reason I'm doing that is because as we've talked about here, there is no right answer to this, what the right percentage should be. But there is like a sniff test. There's like, when you get a number, like we're looking at the American Airlines number of 1.0 and saying,

that's wrong. We know that's wrong. And to be clear, it's not wrong because we feel like, you know, we want our credit card values to be higher. That's not it. We look at it and we say, it's just not realistic. You know, it's not realistic. And as we discussed earlier, people will be making bad decisions based on it. Exactly. So, so we need a number that, that feels right, you know, that we could stand by that if people are making decisions based on it, we don't feel bad about that. And what that is, we'll have to wait and see. So that's the idea. And I think it actually makes logical sense too, because if you think about most people spending most of their miles on domestic economy, even if they only do one

big international trip every like three years, because international business class trips cost more miles than those domestic economy, that still might end up being, for example, 25% of the miles that they've spent. True. So that's how I'm thinking of it. And I think, I don't know, we'll see. So it's interesting because, you know, I think we got a few comments from readers who said that they can accept the fact that the majority of miles redeemed

are for domestic economy flights, but they assumed that the majority of our readers probably are not redeeming for domestic economy. Do you think that's true? Do you think that there's a large percentage of readers and listeners who are using for those domestic, or excuse me, rather international premium cabins? Do you think that makes up a more significant portion? Is that something that should be a bigger consideration? So my, my bet is, you know, if, if you're looking at how many of our readers, um, you know, know that stuff and, and sort of cherry pick the best international awards, uh, if you're looking in comparison to other sites that don't talk about this, then obviously we have a much bigger percentage than

other sites. But I would still bet you that the vast majority, like 80%, 90% of our readers don't, they kind of live vicariously, you know, writing about this stuff, that it's not something they do. And, you know, I know people who are steeped in it, that's what you know, writing about this stuff that it's not something they do. And, and, you know, I know people who are steeped in it. That's what you know. And so you talk to other people who who do this kind of stuff. So it feels like everybody's doing it. That's just not true. No, it's not. And the truth is, I actually think it doesn't even matter, you know, because, you know, look at it and say, okay, the goal here is to create a value where we're like, okay, this is how much you can reasonably expect to get. This is how much this is probably worth.

And if you spend some time reading here and studying this stuff, you can reasonably expect to get far more. And I think that having a lot of space on the top end is not really a problem because at the end of the day, I don't think you probably need to spend a lot of time on the top end is not really a problem because at the end of the day, I don't think you probably need to spend a lot of time, you know, with the pencil and paper trying to determine, okay, so should I get United miles or American airlines miles? Cause I'm going to get, you know, 2.16 cents per mile on the one and 2.32 on the other and blah, blah, blah. Like that kind of comparison just becomes academic at that point. Either way, you're doing really well. So I'm not going to judge harshly if you booked something that was a few more miles with one program over the other when you're booking an international business class

or first class trip where you're surely getting terrific outsized value almost no matter what, unless you're redeeming Delta miles, almost no matter what. So I don't think that that is as important as creating a value where, like you said, people aren't making a bad decision. They aren't saying, okay, well, I'd like to take a trip to Asia. Which credit card bonus should I get? Oh, this American Airlines miles bonus is only worth $600, but oh, this cash back bonus is worth $650 or the venture card. Their bonus is $600 too. So I should get the venture card instead of the airlines card. And it's like, I mean, come on, you know, like if you want to sign up for the venture card, their bonus is $600 too. So I should get the venture card instead of the American Airlines card. And it's like, I mean, come on, you know,

like if you want to sign up for the venture card, great, fine. Use our link. But, you know, like I don't want to talk you into it because we had a value for American Airlines miles. It doesn't make sense. Exactly. And worse, you sign up for the Delta card with that goal in mind.

Right. And you could have done so much better with the American Airlines card. And that's just one example. Yeah, exactly. We've got different examples like this. So yeah, it's a tough, tough. Right, right. Now, at the same time, one of the things that would be really great if we go forward with a solution, and I'm saying if because I'm waiting to see what feedback we get from the post about it. And so we might change our mind. So we don't know. We're doing the show before the post aired. But if we do compile these business class numbers, we'll publish those too.

It's just, they won't be part of our credit card displays, but we'll publish those numbers. And the nice thing about that is people who know, you know, people who are the readers that are advanced and know this stuff, they'll know that, well, we're planning on using it for business class international flights. So I'm going to use frequent milers, business class numbers, not the blended number. Right. And then you can look at that and say, okay, well, this is about reasonable for these miles. Okay, great. I'm getting a good deal on this flight. That's okay. I can go ahead and book it now. I mean, you still, I think are going to want to use award booking tools, like whether it's juicy miles or seat spy or award hacker, whatever it is out there that you use to compare stuff and figure out what your best deal is in terms of the number of miles, but it will at least give you that sort of rubric to say, okay, this is something I shouldn't even be considering

or, or at least something where you can say, okay, well, maybe I ought to pay cash. If that's an option for you in that situation where you're like, oh, should I pay cash or should I, you know, use my miles? And, uh, you know, and I think that there's a lot of people out there, you know, when we go back to the fact that a lot of a lot more people redeem their miles for domestic economy class than the small subset of us that don't redeem many miles that way might believe, you know, I think that a lot of people just like to keep cash in their pocket. And so they look at it and say, Okay, well, I'm going to use miles one way or another. So what's my best mile deal? And sure. And so, you know, we want to have a value that makes sense for that large portion of people right right all right so well brings us to the end of this week's main event right that's right uh so what do we have next the host roast roast time all right do you have anything for me i i i was gonna delay a little time here and say, should I be nervous? No, I don't.

I don't have a roast for you this week. You wrote these great posts about the value of airline miles. You wrote this. I wrote that American Airlines miles are worth one cent each, and you're not going to roast me? Well, I mean, I just had the chance to roast you. I don't want to drag that out. I don't want to beat a dead horse here.

All right. Well, all right. You wrote a good post, though. I will say that if you haven't, we're not talking about it here, but if you haven't read the post that Greg wrote about the things you ought to know about Amex credit cards, you should. And I hoped to find something in there I could roast. And I really had a hard time finding what it was that I could roast in there because it was all good stuff. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. That was really cool that it came all out of one question from a reader. I actually thought about bringing that question onto the show because the reader actually

started his email saying, I've got another question for you for question of the week. But as I started thinking about how I'd answered, I realized, oh my God, it's amazing how many, how many things about American Express you need to know in order to come to an answer to that question. And, and it's kind of, it's kind of neat how that fell out. You really do. And, and I think that it's knowledge that those who know might take for granted. You know, I know that, you know, when you, when I started reading it, I was like, oh yeah, okay. I know these things. And then I thought to myself as I was reading through it, yeah, but who does like apart from somebody who does this every day for a living,

like who would know all of those things? There's a lot to know about it in terms of the strategy and figuring out which card to get rid of in that case. Cause the question in this case was a reader saying they got denied for an Amex card because they had too many credit cards. So they had to decide which one to drop. And we're trying to figure out which one, but there's a lot of ins and outs

in determining which one you would want to drop in that case. There's a lot there. Yeah. So read that post. If you haven't read it, this is a reverse roast. This is the opposite of a roast. Thank you. That's kind of nice. I'm not going not gonna do the same for you i'm afraid shoot

all right you wrote you wrote the complete guide to ihg rewards program i sure did and um in that in that post in that post you wrote and i quote oh not even top tier tier elites get free breakfast or lounge access right but but there's actually three butts here okay um but number one all right further down in the post you're listing the intercontinental ambassador benefits. And among those are one complimentary full breakfast per day, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, valid in mainland China only. And is an intercontinental ambassador really an IHG elite member? I mean, okay, I guess they consider it an elite status and I put it in there under elite status because that's kind of what it is.

But it's like a membership program. It's like a club you join, right? It is, but- Pay 200 bucks for it. The only reason I, so the reason I could get away with roasting you about this is because you had it listed under elite levels. You're right, I did.

All right. I did. Further down, same section, a little bit further down, Royal Ambassador does get intercontinental or regent club lounge access. Royal Ambassador is that invite-only program. So they do get club lounge access. If there is no club or they can't get in for some reason, then they get full breakfast.

So they get breakfast too and not just in mainland China, apparently. Right there in the post, right in front of me. Yeah. Not in the post though. Digging into terms and conditions, I found six senses, hotels, resorts, and spas. You know them? I mean, not well, but not as well as I'd like to, if there's something to be said here. I gather. I'm on the edge of my seat here. I don't know much about them, but they seem to be sort of a luxury. Seems that way.

Like healthy living-ish, you know, Ravel-ish type of place. Exactly. That's what came to my mind. It's that kind of place. Yeah. Right. So that's what it looks like from their website. I've never stayed at one. There's about 20, I think, around the world. And they were bought by IHG and they're very slowly integrating with the program.

So here's what it says in the terms and conditions. Sixth Sense's Hotels Resort Spa will progressively be integrating into the IHG Rewards Program. And at that time, the following benefits will apply for Intercontinental Ambassador, Royal Ambassador, and Kempton Inner Circle members

at participating Sixth Sense's hotels. So, all right. So the caveats are- They hired somebody from Choice Privileges, didn't. So the caveats are- They hired somebody from Choice Privileges, didn't they? Of the 26 Senses hotels, it has to be one that has been integrated and it has to be one that's participating. But if it's both of those, then all of those invite-only ones qualify for these benefits, but so does Intercontinental Ambassador, which is the one that you could buy into very easily.

Here's what you get. You get complimentary breakfast for two in the main restaurant per day, signature amenity of either 50 minutes, six cents of spa massage for two or local experience once per stay. Complimentary one category room upgrade. Extended checkout of 4 p.m. subject to availability, but it's guaranteed for the invite-only elites. Early checkout, early, I think they meant check-in, but it says early checkout. Early checkout.

Early check-in of 10 a.m. subject to availability. Get out of here extra early. For like Royal Ambassador and Kempton Inner Circle. And then free internet, which- I'm waiting for the part where you're going to tell me

that it's not any good on awards days. And then a wellness platter, welcome amenity on day of arrival. It doesn't say anything about awards days. So I'm thinking that you could probably argue your way into it. Maybe, maybe. And then a wellness platter, welcome amenity on day of arrival. It doesn't say anything about awards days. So I'm thinking that you could probably argue your way into it. Maybe, maybe because IHG benefits don't apply on awards days, right? Technically.

Well, there aren't very many elite benefits, but I don't think, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't think that's true of ambassador benefits. So this is kind of a gray area, right? We know that some ambassador benefits do apply. This didn't say one way or another. So interesting question, interesting question. Anyway, there is breakfast going on there. Okay, so there's breakfast at Sixth Sense.

There's also some other, quite a few other. At integrated participating Sixth Sense's resorts, there's breakfast. Right, so at that one hotel, maybe if that exists. I don't know. But I have to say, I'm kind of intrigued because, you know, this brought me to look at the website. They look amazing. If we could get a good deal with points or a cash-based stay. And I could see it being worth buying into the ambassador program

if you know you're going to be staying at one of these anyway, and if it's participating, et cetera, et cetera. Here's the question that I assume you probably aren't going to know the answer to yet. Are any of the Sixth Sense displays bookable with points yet? I don't know the answer. I don't know either, but I don't think they are,

but I could be wrong. I definitely didn't double check that. So now I'm going to have to go back and double check that and see. But the Six Senses properties and the Mr. and Mrs. Smith properties are things that are slowly getting integrated. And I don't think that COVID has helped speed that up any. So I know I was excited at the time when those things were kind of announced and then they kind of fell by the wayside because I just haven't been thinking about that kind of travel in a while. But as, as we do, as things pick back up, then certainly I will be intrigued with that too,

because certainly it would be worth spending $200 for breakfast with, if you get free breakfast for two each day, you know, especially on an awards day. Yeah. And, and then you still have ambassador status for the whole year. So if you have other stays, you know, and plus you get the massage and night and yeah. So,

all right. Okay. So I, I'll, I'll take that roasting there that I need to dig through the six senses, terms and conditions and get that added to the complete guide. Cause that needs to be in there. Now,

the other thing that needs to be in there, if somebody knows more than I do is what more can you tell me about how to get targeted to be Kempton Inner Circle or Royal Ambassador? Because I mean, I get that it requires a lot of time at these hotels, but I'd love to hear some data points as to how much time you spent at these hotels in order to trigger those super secret invite only statuses. So, but that aside, okay. So that brings us then I think to the question of the week. Yes. Okay. It's time. I'm excited about this week's question of the week because this week's question of the week comes from me. And so my question of the week for you, Greg, is

two part. First, have you switched to T-Mobile yet? And if not, why not? You know the answer to both of those questions. I know, I definitely, I think I know the answer to one, but I definitely don't know the why not part. I have not switched to T-Mobile yet. Um, I, unfortunately I got a new phone, not all that long ago. And so the, like the, the incentive to switch where they give you like a discount off a new phone is not tempting to me. I mean, I know, I guess I could get one and sell it or whatever.

But I think honestly, that's probably the main, the main hang up because for a while I resisted because right now I'm personally on, on Google Fi. And I love that back in the days when I traveled internationally. It made sense at that point. Yeah. But, you know, T-Mobile is not that much worse. I mean, you still get international data, very slow, but then you can pay only, what, $5 a day to get high speed when you travel.

So it's not a bad, it's not a bad at all, I think, compromise. So really, there's not necessarily a good reason for me not to switch, but I haven't done that. And I am very jealous every time you post about all these free lines you're getting. It's like, it's crazy. You know, I, I enjoy the fact that we have it now also because of the fact that if and when we do travel internationally again, it's just convenient having phones that work when you get there. And that's the nice thing with Google Fi.

Also, of course, it just works when you land and you turn it on, you wait a couple minutes and then boom, you're gone. I mean, that's terrific. So like you said, the problem with T-Mobile internationally is that the speeds are slow, except in Mexico and Canada, you get 5g in, in Mexico and Canada, or 4g LT, whatever it is, depending where you are in Mexico and Canada. So you do get good speeds there, but you know, if you go to Europe or Asia or whatever else, you get a really slow speed, but they keep throwing these free lines at us. And so it's like, it's hard to say no, you know, wrote this week about the latest one.

And so they give away four free lines last year. And that's one so far this year. And I'm not sure I read part of the reason I asked this, of course, was because I wrote the post this week about the fact that they're giving a free line. If you have two paid lines or more on T-Mobile, then you can get a free line right now. And depending on your plan, you may end up having to pay taxes on that free line every month, like five bucks a month or something. But with a number of plans, also my plan included both my old plan and my new plan, because I switched, it doesn't cost anything at all. There's literally no additional fee on my bill. I just got a free line and it gets the same plan as the rest of your lines. So in my case, now I'm on Magenta Max which is the the top end plan that t-mobile offers

totally unlimited no throttle on the data 40 gigs of hotspot per line which is just like way more than you get with anybody else for hotspot and the free lines get that too without having to pay for it so yeah and i read that this is only going to be available until monday i don't know if that's true but i wanted to bring it up for people who are on t-mobile who aren't familiar with it because you can add a free line and then there's a number of phones that you get for free when you add a line, including a free line. So you pick up a phone and sell it, give it to somebody, donate it, whatever else you want to do with it. If you want to get one of those things, I got a phone for a family member, you know, cheap because I added a new line. So, so I think it's worth doing if you're on T-Mobile,

there's a lot of different things you could do with that free line in terms of being able to take advantage of more T-Mobile Tuesdays deals and being able to take advantage of T-Mobile money to deposit money and, you know, earn good interest. There's a lot of reasons. And so I'm asking myself, why isn't Greg on T-Mobile? I would have to have two lines right on T-Mobile in order to qualify for a free line. You do. You need two paid lines in order to get the free line. So it wouldn't be just me porting over, but one of my family members are on AT&T and, and, um, uh, there are places we go where,

where AT&T has coverage and the other networks. Yeah. Yeah. At least T-Mobile doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's certainly a concern. Yeah. So that maybe that's a valid reason. It's tough. I hate, I hate sitting on the sidelines on that deal. That's such a smoking deal. Yeah. And they keep doing it. That's the crazy thing. I can't believe that they keep, you asked me the reason I, part of the reason I brought this up was because Greg asked me recently, he said, you know, do you think they'll continue to do these free lines? Should I, should I switch and get a T-Mobile account?

And I said, I don't know. I mean, they did four of them last year. Who knows? Maybe they will. And then, bam, like a couple weeks later here, out with another free line. And I just keep shaking my head. I have three paid lines now and four free lines. And from what I've read, there are other people that have even more free lines. I think you can have up to eight lines on a regular plan,

but then it's possible to get authorized for up to 12 lines. And there may even be a possibility for 15 from what I read, but I just saw a data point from somebody, I think commented on our post that said that they were told they were at the max with eight, but the rep was able to switch their account around and put them on the nine to 12

so they could have up to 12 lines now. And this is all paying for just two lines. You have to have at least two paid lines. And in my case, I have three paid lines because I didn't know any better back in the day and paid for three lines. And why didn't, why didn't you drop one of the three when you got a free one? That's how they get you. That's how they get you. When you add the free line, you can't drop any of your paid lines or any of your lines for 12 months otherwise. So if I tried to drop one of my paid lines now, then the free line would no longer be free. They do it as they give you-

So they keep offering this promo every few months because they're afraid you're gonna get to your 12 month point and start dropping lines. Exactly. And so now it's just reset this week. I gotta wait another 12 months before I could consider dropping one of those paid lines and keeping, you know, my various free lines.

But, but at this point, three paid and four free is pretty good. And I've read about people who have six or seven free lines. So, uh, I mean, that's nuts to me. I can't believe that that continues going on and you keep it as long as you keep your plan. Now, if you switch your plan at some point in the future, there's the possibility that you won't be able to keep those free lines. I was able to switch and keep my free line. So it depends on your situation and which plans you're switching from and to, and you can't add the free line if you're on like the military plan

or the first responder plan or the 55 plus plan. So there's some restrictions and stuff. You can read it in the post link will be in the description, but I think it's a good deal for people who are. So you have all these free lines. They each have all this like hotspot data that they can provide. Are you now using it as your primary internet or are you still for cable or whatever? I use, so I also have T-Mobile home internet, but the coverage isn't always great. And if I want to work outside or wherever else, kind of a pain to bring it outside, blah, blah, blah. So I use my mobile hotspot very frequently on my phones, quite a bit, in fact. And in fact, the mobile hotspot is faster because 5G here where I live in the countryside in the middle of nowhere, I'm getting around 70 megs down and around 35 or 40 up. And the home Internet is much, much less than that.

It's 4G, so it's much less than that. So you could conceivably think about getting rid of it. Of course, I don't know. I like to stream things and whatnot, so I don't want to run up against the cap. But I certainly, you know, when I switched plans, I switched plans from my old plan to this one. My old plan had up to 50 gigabytes of data on each line

before it would get throttled. And so when I switched to this new one, it's got unlimited regular data on your phone, but up to 40 gigs of hotspot data. And so I thought, well, maybe I'm taking a little bit of a downgrade, but it turned out it was a little cheaper. And I said, well, I could add another line in the future and still pay a little bit less than I had been. And maybe they'll offer a free line and I won't even have to worry about paying for that extra line. I'll pick up even more. And sure enough, here we are just a few weeks later and they added that.

So that's nice. The other thing that's nice is because there's no cap at all on the data on the phone and they do full 4k streaming and all this that now when I have to upload something that's very data heavy, I'm just moving it over my phone first and then uploading it from my phone. So for example, this podcast, when I upload it to YouTube and this file is like eight or nine gigabytes when I'm processing it. And so I'm just uploading it directly from my phone. I just plug my phone into the computer, drop the file, put it from the phone. Yeah. Yeah. And that doesn't count against your cap. It doesn't count against my cap from the phone and it flies by because it's going at, you know, 70 megs. So it's right. So anyway,

I'm a fan at this point. I'm a fan. Wow. I feel like you need to just get it, get a keyboard, a Bluetooth keyboard and a screen that catches to your, your phone and just use that as your PC. That could be, that could be it. I do have a Bluetooth keyboard actually, that I used to use with a phone years ago when it was much slower and more frustrating now with, you know, how fast phones have gotten that that's not as crazy as it sounds. Right. Right. It's, it's, it's certainly possible. All right. That my friends brings us to the end for this week. So if you've been enjoying what we've been talking about and you'd like to get

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Right. You got some work. You got some yard work to do this weekend, guys. A lot of yard work. A lot of yard work. All right. Bye everybody. Thank you.