Frequent Miler on the Air - The single best starter card | Ep144 | 4-2-22

Episode Date: April 2, 2022

The best card for a student or young professional just starting out on life's journey and the path to valuable rewards for spend isn't necessarily clear-cut, but on this week's show we discuss the options we would be most likely to recommend -- and why one probably stands out over the rest for a large segment of the market. 1:09 Giant Mailbag double feature. A cool trick for Caesars and Wyndham and a reader thank-you. 5:10 What crazy thing . . . did Greg the Frequent Miler do this week? https://frequentmiler.com/which-credit-card-offers-the-best-free-night-certificates/ 12:14 Mattress running the numbers -- err, lounge running the numbers with the Royal Air Maroc status match. https://frequentmiler.com/get-oneworld-status-with-royal-air-maroc-status-match/ 19:35 Main Event: The single best starter card 21:10 Discover It Student card https://frequentmiler.com/discover-it-student-good-grades-20-per-year/ 26:24 Freedom cards https://frequentmiler.com/cff/ https://frequentmiler.com/cfu/ 32:37 Citi Double Cash https://frequentmiler.com/dc/ 37:53 Citi Custom Cash https://frequentmiler.com/customcash/ 41:15 Bilt Mastercard https://frequentmiler.com/is-the-bilt-card-worth-it-who-should-consider-it-is-it-the-ultimate-starter-rewards-card-on-nicks-mind/ 1:01:12 Question of the Week: Looking for flexibility in United award tickets Join our email list: https://frequentmiler.com/subscribe/ Music credit: Annie Yoder

Let's get into the giant mailbag. What crazy thing did Citi do this week? It's time for Mattress Running the Numbers. Ready for the main event? The main event. Frequent Mylar on the air starts now. Today's main event, the single best starter card. Built is out for real. They're available nationwide now with a card that is arguably the best or one of the best starter cards for someone just starting out, needs a credit card and is built the one. Well, there is some really strong competition. So we're going to talk about which one is really best. And we will have the single definitive answer. The single best, the single answer to the single best because we never hedge we know we never say well in a single card this is better or in this case that's better now we would never do that to you definitely not um although we might we'll see we'll see

we don't know because i mean it happens live right i mean we we have an idea of what we're going to talk about but we haven't like talked about it yet exactly we'll right? I mean, we have an idea of what we're going to talk about, but we haven't, like, talked about it yet. Exactly. We have no idea. We have no idea. All right. Getting into the giant mailbag. Today's mailbag mail comes from Danny.

Danny says, another great podcast as usual. In the latest episode, you mentioned use cases for Wyndham slash Caesars transferability. Because you could transfer back and forth between Wyndham and Caesar's. True. And he says, there's one potentially useful use case you didn't mention. A useful use case. Yeah. He says, can you transfer Wyndham points to another person?

Well, yes, for a fee. Can you transfer Caesar's points to another person? Yes, for free. Ooh. He says, see where I'm going with this one? You can use Caesar's as a go-between to transfer Wyndham points from one person to another. Now, whether it's worth the hassle, that's another story. Oh, I think it could be.

It could be. And he quotes Caesar'sesars website saying in quotes, stop by any one of our Caesars reward centers with your valid photo ID and a representative will transfer the rewards credits from your account to the account you wish to be gifted. Okay. That's a little harder than I was hoping. Yeah. You've got to go there. Okay. Yeah. A little bit of a bummer there. Cause I was thinking to myself, well,

my wife has the wind and business card and I don't at this point. So I thought, oh, well, that's great because I could take the Wyndham points in my account and get them in her account since she shopping portal. And I bought some points before I realized how easily we were going to generate points. So anyway, I have some and I would love to get them over there where I can get a discount, but I don't have any plans to be at the Caesars again soon. So we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. And I could say from personal experience that the role your own approach to doing this does not work. So what I had tried is my wife transferred her Wyndham to Caesars and I tried transferring from her Caesars account to my Wyndham, you know, thinking, ah, they wouldn't know, but it, it, I never got a message saying that there's something wrong. You know, I'd indicated it made it look like it was going to happen, but nothing ever happened.

So eventually we just transferred it back to her Wyndham account and that did work. So yeah, go in person and you can do this little trick. So that's a pretty cool, you know, niche little, uh, trick. I did not know. No, I didn't know it either. And I appreciate knowing it. So thank you very much. Who was that that shared that one? That was Danny. Danny. Thank you, Danny. Appreciate it. So actually today, surprise, surprise. We've got a mailbag double feature. Greg didn't know it until right now. No idea. We've got a mailbag double feature. I am going to chime in. I searched through the mailbag and I didn't see it because this one didn't come to your address. I got a message that I know Greg hasn't seen. So I wanted to be able to read it so he could hear it too. I get a message on Facebook from a reader who we both

know we've met. And he wrote to me and said, thank you so much for, oh, no, let me back up. Let me see. He said, my wife and I wanted to send you a special thank you for all the advice you provided. We're having an amazing trip in Bora Bora with our seven month old twins. I most likely never would have done a trip like this if I hadn't heard from your personal experience, bringing your wife and son here, we've already had so much fun and created memories. We'll never forget. I really appreciate that you and Greg take time to respond to questions and give advice. Your work has really helped families like our own create special memories that will leave a lasting impact. We appreciate all that you and Greg do. Thanks again so there you go that's so sweet fantastic

we love that kind of feedback obviously we sure do so i want to share with you yeah great to hear you just you know took his family on a vacation based on stuff that we've written about and things that he's learned from us over the years so that was a it was a very very nice comment uh i love it love it yep so many great rewards in this game and and there are you can uh do it with your family and wow that's that's terrific a lot of fun okay all right so let's talk about what crazy thing what crazy thing did greg do this week greg the frequent miler this guy i don't know about this guy this greg the frequent miler guy wrote about which free night hotel free night certificates which like credit card hotel free night certificates, which like credit card, hotel free night

certificates are the best ones. And what I want to know, Greg, is how the heck were Hilton free night certificates not the best ones? They're not capped. You can use them anywhere you want to use them. Even those properties that are charging 120 or like 150,000 points a night now, you can use them anywhere. How are those not the best ones, Greg? love it so so in in the post i wrote i i create a nice chart with like different features of all the different cards and and put little green uh check marks or thumbs up or something uh for for each one that had like something special going for it and hilton cards have a lot going for them uncapped um you can even gift them. You can gift the free nights to others, which is unique to Hilton and Hyatt. I added shortly after publication,

which ones you are not going to be charged resort fees when using. So again, Hilton and Hyatt both have that feature. A lot of good stuff happening there. But others had some good stuff too. And it's kind of fun for me because I think that post I wrote, it's kind of like an inkblot test. You know, people are reading out of it whatever they want to read and taking exception to things that I may or may not have said. In reality, it's true. I didn't explicitly say the Hilton card is the best, but I explain why it's easy to make an argument that it's the

best. In fact, I said one could easily argue that Hilton free night certificates are the best. They have no cap. As a result, they can be used at the most expensive Hilton properties worldwide. That's awesome. And despite my saying that, people were like, wait a minute, how can you say what you said? Hilton is the best. And the reason that people are arguing that is in my conclusion. I didn't say Hilton was best. I said, depends on where you want to go, what your sort of travel style is. That's such a cop out, Greg. Come on, uh, you know, where you want to go, what, what your sort of travel style is. I don't know. It's such a cop out, Greg. Come on, come on. Of course it depends. So I stand by that. So, so yes, if, if I were to just objectively pick what is best without any context, Hilton, no, no question. Okay. Glad to hear you admit it. Good. But you know, if, if I'm talking to a couple that likes to, let's say,

go have a weekend in Chicago every year and they love staying at boutique hotels, well, you know, Chicago is full of Kempton boutique hotels and the IHG cards might be the best for them. And you know, the, and they're not going to get, you're not going to get incredible value at it. You know, using a Hilton cert in Chicago, you could get good value, but it's just not going to be incredible. And so I also stand by the fact that your travel style, your situation is going to depend on which is best for those that are willing to, you know, kind of build their travel around what are the best travel deals. I mean, Hilton,

you just can't beat the fact that yes, you could, you could build a trip around these like free nights and, and go to Bora Bora, go to the Maldives, go to, you know, some incredible places and stay for free on the weekends. I mean, that's where you want to go anyway, Greg. Come on. That's not a big limitation. You're not going on a Tuesday night. Come on.

You want to go on the weekends, right? I mean, I know it's not as flexible as seven days a week. You're right. And I think the point you made in the post that was important is that if you primarily want to travel within the United States or even really within North America, there are very limited options for those amazing Hilton redemptions. You know, like there are some incredible ones around the world. There's that one in the Seychelles that looks amazing. There's really two of the Seychelles that both look great. There's obviously Conrad Bora Bora, where I stayed and where the reader wrote in, I think has stayed.

And, you know, so there are some of the Maldives, Conrad, blah, blah, blah, the Waldorf Astoria and the Maldives. But you have to be willing to travel halfway around the world to go to one of those types of places. If you want to stay in the United States, you can stay at some decent Hilton's, but you're not going to be like, oh, my goodness, everybody needs to go here. It's not going to be a, you know, a raving review like the like the Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain, for instance, that you went to and really liked or the Ventana big sir. There's, there's really no Hilton equivalent of that in the United States. Not that I know of anyway.

That we know of. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody else knows it. Please tell me, let me know. Cause I'd love to use some free nice certificates there. Yeah. And, and, you know, and they have, they have that like Curio brand and a couple other things where, where you, you, they're individual hotels. And so there might be some that are great and others that aren't, we just don't really know. The, the, the funny thing is,

so I've kind of complained about how, in my experience when I've gone to try to book Hilton free nights, like the awards weren't available when I needed them. But just last night, I was looking up a potential weekend in Asheville, North Carolina. And I looked up, you know, what are the best points hotels in Asheville based on reviews. And, and there, there like three really stood out one, one is a Kempton. So that's IHG. Another is a Cambria. So that's Choice. So I was pretty excited about that because we know that Choice hotels actually in the U.S. cap out at 30,000 points per night. That's the most they're going to charge in the U.S. for Choice hotels. And then there was the Hilton. I think it was a Curio. I think it is a Curio. I think it is too.

Yeah. I remember because I looked at that one also. Yeah. And it looks really, really nice. And it looks like a very interesting place to stay. Maybe it's tapestry. I think maybe it's tapestry collection, but still, yes. There's a Hilton in Nashville that looks very nice. So guess which one of the three had award availability?

The only one of the three was the Hilton. Very good. Very good. I like it. And you can use your pretty nice certificates there. Oh, very good. I'm glad that that worked out like that. Yeah. I mean, and I'll be curious. So are you going to stay there, you think, at some point? We actually decided to stay at a B&B closer to where we actually want to be. So we actually aren't going to Asheville itself so uh but it's just kind of funny that that you know i complained about hilton's not being like in the place you want to be and right and then ability but here i had a specific personal example where it's like yeah

all right yeah there we go there you go all right all right well, so you're a little crazy and not being clear how awesome those are, but at the same time, you're not that crazy because there are options that are probably better for other folks. So, all right, that out of the way, let's talk about mattress running the numbers. So this week, what do we have for mattress running the numbers, Greg? Yeah. So, so a status match. So this doesn't really have, doesn't really have anything to do with mattress running in a way you could say it's lounge running. Lounge running the numbers this week. Lounge running the numbers. And, and here's the thing Royal Air Maroc, which is a one world member is offering status matches from a number of different airlines. And they are charging 49

euros to do so. So that about 55 bucks. And if you do that, so one nice thing, if you're traveling domestically with American Airlines, like let's say you had American Airlines, like even top tier status, that does not guarantee you access to the lounges. It doesn't get you, period. Yeah, I mean, you don't get in the door with that. No, no. And well, I guess there's situations, right. If you're flying domestically, it doesn't get you in. If you're flying internationally, you probably do.

With this Royal Air Maroc status, you can get into the domestic lounges, even though you're flying American Airlines or JetBlue. So actually, I'm not sure about JetBlue. But anyway, the point is, as long as you're flying a one world carrier, which would be American Airlines, if you're flying domestically, or Alaska is what I should have said, then you could get into those lounges. So that's pretty cool. Whether it's worth 40 or 55 US dollars to you to have a year of access to that probably depends on whether you're going to be flying a lot on American or Alaska and want that lounge access. Yeah, I mean, it probably depends on the lounges wherever you're flying to and from too, right? I mean, if it's flagship lounge access, that's probably worth more than the average Admirals Club that I've only visited a few, but out of the others that I've visited

that were not flagship lounges, I don't know how much I would really pay for that. But if you're in a New York or a Dallas or someplace with like a really nice Admirals Club, then then that may very well be well worth it to you. So now it could be. But you also need to think about, like, do you have access to a great or a very good priority pest lounge? You have access to a good centurion lounge, things like that, which which might make it less desirable to do this. But if you're in a situation where it's desirable, how do we play this? So, so, so if you already have status in a non one world airline, they have a huge list of options for status matching. And if you have a high enough status, you get matched to a high enough status in Royal Air Maroc to get your lounge access, great, pay 55 bucks, and it's good for I think a year. So but there's kind of a fun other way of doing it, because we've been talking about a lot this year about how American Airlines lets you

kind of game the system, sort of intentionally, you can earn points through shopping portals and other means, and you get loyalty points and you could earn American Airlines high level status. So this is more theoretical than something I want to do, but, but you could play this sort of merry-go-round where you, where you earn American Airlines status through those kind of whatever means, right? Sign up for a whole bunch of, you know, different food delivery options and things where you get lots of American Airlines miles. You saw the Wall Street Journal first delivery came yesterday. Right. And then you status match to the airline formerly known as Aeritalia, which is now

ITA. And then from there to Royal Air Maroc. Just a couple of steps. Just a couple of steps in there. Fun stuff. I don't know to what degree it's worth doing all that objectively,

but for those who like playing the game, it's kind of a fun little... It it's not even a loophole really it's just a way of of uh well gaming the system yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i looked at it and i was like oh okay that's fun but i'm not gonna pay 49 euros to maybe use an American Airlines lounge once or twice if I'm lucky. So, yeah, I'm not going to go after this myself. But I did look at it and say, oh, well, that is kind of fun, especially with the ITA in between. And some people probably already did the ITA match because it's been around for a little bit. So if you already did and you have ITA status just because you wanted to have easy status,

then maybe this is worth it too. I was like, I don't know. Should I be disappointed about this? I felt kind of disappointed that it's through statusmatch.com only because I feel like that starts to eliminate, like if statusmatch.com becomes the default in between

for these things, it might start to limit the game ability of some of these, right? Like I don't really want statusmatch.com, which is a very useful tool. I love the website for figuring out how to leverage your status or how to match the status. Not too thrilled with them becoming the in-between though, because then you may not have such an easy time matching status around with these programs that you haven't actually followed, which of course is not what they want. Right. So let me say, there are two different websites. There's statusmatch.com and status matcher.com. And so status match.com. Well, the status match.com, I believe is the one that tells you what you can link from and to. I'm not sure which, which one this Royal Air Maroc one goes through. Darn it, I should have known that.

I assume it's matcher, but, you know. Okay, so it's one of those sites, and you'll find a link to it in the post that I'm going to put in the show notes. So there will be more detail there. So statusmatch.com, I've actually never been to until just now. Statusmatcher is the site I've always used to look at it. But at any rate, they both exist, and so there's some matching capability there.

Like I said, not a big fan of the middleman, so to speak, where you link up your accounts in order to do these status matches. It makes sense. If I were an airline, I'd like this. But as a person who likes to pick up status without actually flying, I'm less of a fan. Anyway. So let me set the record straight. I just thought you were. So statusmatcher.com is where you could look up what are your options for matching from one thing to another and status match er no i'm sorry status match.com without the er is where you can actually go and execute this status match to royal air morocco without the earth which is really confusing because there should be the should be the verb one you know know, I think. Anyway.

It's all right. What a mess here. What a mess. Okay. All right, guys. So you can do something fun if you want. Let's move on. All right. So that's that. Let's talk about the main event. Welcome to the main event. Today's main event is. The single best starter card. So, okay, we get this question all the time. Often it's from friends of mine whose kids are, you know, just going to college or just about to turn 18, or maybe they're ready to get their own because they've got their new job. Whatever the reason, it's their first card. Which one should they get? And, you know, there's a number of good contenders for that. But first, before we talk about any of them, any of the ones we're going to discuss, if this person who's getting their first starter card cannot be relied on to pay the bill in full every single month, they should ignore everything we say in the rest of the show. Right. Right. Right. Get them a debit, get them the point

debit card then to get them started out with some rewards without spending any money. Or I think there are some other rewards, debit cards out there. Or just, or just use a debit card from your, your bank that, you know, if you have a no fee checking that includes a debit card, just, you know, that way you just can't get into that kind of trouble. There's downsides to using debit cards, but I think the downsides of going into spiraling debt are worse with credit. So, all right, that sort of out of the way.

The card that I used to always recommend when people turned 18 is the Discover It student card. And it's identical to the Discover It card. So really you could sign up for either one. The benefits are the same. Discover It Student has like one additional feature that the Discover It card doesn't have, which is every year for something like five years, you can log on and tell them that you got A's and B's and they give you 20 bucks. So it's-

If you got A's and B's, you can log in and right, right, right. Tell them that you got those confirmed. Exactly. Exactly. Right, right, right, right. So, so they pay you for being a good student, 20 bucks a year. So it's small, but yes, hey, now we don't condone lying here. So, so discovered student card, it's really, so, so you only get 1% back for most purchases, but they have rotating 5% back categories that change every month and sorry, every quarter, every three months. And, um, and they're usually very popular categories of spend. So it's not, you know, unlikely that this person's going to be spending a decent amount within those categories. It also has the benefit that you can redeem, you could redeem straight up

cash back, or you could redeem your cash back as gift cards for better value. So, so for example, they, they might, if you want a hundred dollar Staples gift card, they might charge you $90 of Discover cash back to get that $100 Staples gift card, just as an example. And it varies by merchant how much the discount is. often, you know, young adults might not know all the other ways of saving at various merchants and having an easy way to save a bit on something like that is really good. I've used it myself sometimes for, you know, buying presents for people. So, you know, I download or I redeem my cash back for those gift cards at a discount and then buy what I want for other people, usually going through a portal. So I earn additional rewards, of course, but that's just me. The other thing going in Discover's favor is very easy approval. So, you know, they're used

to approving people who don't have a credit history. And if they don't approve you for the credit card, you should get an offer to be approved for a secured card, thank you, where you have to deposit some money with them to basically secure that credit limit. And that way, after time, they get to know that you do pay your bill and everything, and they will offer to convert you to a credit card once you prove your worth and you build up a credit history by doing that. And I believe it has the same features of the Discover It card. So you get the same, you know, cash back and everything. So that's really good. Yeah. So yeah, you know, you made a lot of good arguments for the card, but I don't get excited about the discover it student card. It doesn't excite me because the majority of purchases

are probably going to be at 1%. Yeah. You might get to use those rotating 5% categories, but if you're just starting out, are you going to remember to activate the 5% categories and remember which ones are the 5% categories and remember which place to use them when it's time to use them? And remember that it's a new quarter because it's April 1st or whatever. Now, I mean, that seems like too much work to me and the rewards, not that exciting either. I feel like if that's your introduction to rewards, credit cards, like redeeming for a discounted gift card, you are more likely to make poor rewards choices when you actually get valuable points and redeem your chase ultimate rewards for gift cards or something when you

should be holding on to them for more valuable things. So while I can see the argument, I'm not excited about the Discover It student card. That's not the one I would recommend to somebody, I don't think. Yeah. And that's totally understandable. Let me make a couple points here. One is that I'm also assuming that someone starting out is probably not spending a lot on their credit cards. Like if they are, they might be ready for higher level than a starter card. And so if you're not spending a lot anyway, the sort of value of the rewards, like this is more of a way to get a taste of rewards

and you're just not going to earn a ton, whether you're earning at 1% or 2%. But at least earn a good signup bonus. I mean, come on, you know, you'll get what, 50 bucks with the Discover It student card? Actually, that's a really good point. A signup bonus could be very important for starting out. So you get a nice, well, starter. Way to get started, especially if it has a low spend requirement. Right. That's what I'm thinking. Cause the freedom cards that usually it's like a $500 spending requirement for $150 or sometimes $200 welcome offer. So, I mean, $500 in three months,

that's probably well within reach for most people and getting like 150 or $200 back on 500. Imagine if you're a student and you're buying a laptop or something, you're like, wow, I got 150 or 200 bucks back just for buying something I was going to buy anyway. That seems to me like a much better deal. So I would be more interested, not saying that this is the starter solution, but I'd be more interested in perhaps a freedom flex if you really want the rotating categories. And not just for the welcome bonus. I think the welcome bonus is important, but the Freedom Flex or the Freedom Unlimited is going to give you 3X at restaurants, 3X at pharmacies. If you're relatively young, you're probably getting sick often because you're out there in classes with other people, mixing around with people you don't know that well,

you're getting, you know, picking up the sniffles and whatnot. You're gonna have to go to the pharmacy, get some cold medicine, get some Alka-Seltzer, whatever it might be. 3X on all of those things, I think is more valuable than having a discovery card. So I'd lean more towards- Let me add one thing in favor too. You know, college students that are in like towns don't tend to as often, I think, go out to grocery stores when they're shopping. But the local Walmart or CVS or whatever often has like, you know, the cereal and the toilet paper, the things you need for around your apartment. And you mentioned Walmart, not Walmart, CVS or like Walgreens. Walgreens is what I meant if I said Walmart. Sorry about that.

Yeah, Walgreens. And so, yeah, I think that 3X could actually be meaningful for someone who's in that situation of often shopping, not just when they're sick. Totally agree. Totally agree. I feel like I frequently, when I wander into a pharmacy in a city,

I frequently see young people in there buying like grocery type items. I feel like that's, you know, it's very, very common. So yeah, I agree. I think that 3x pharmacy could be huge for all those regular necessities and 3x dining will be helpful. So I feel like on net, you're probably going to do better with that, even though you're still going to get 1x on a lot of things either way. Now, would you go freedom flex or freedom unlimited? It's, it's tough. I, you know, when my son signed up, I had him go freedom unlimited because I know him and I know he's not going to be paying attention to what the five X category of the quarter is. So I just figured better for him to get decent everywhere, one and a half X, than to worry about, you know,

is he even remembering to activate his, his quarterly bonus? You know, I would not expect him to do that. So, right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I probably agree that I would take the freedom flex over the freedom for somebody young and starting out for that reason. Exactly. There's not freedom unlimited over the freedom flex. That's what I meant to say. Freedom unlimited over the freedom flex for someone starting out for that reason. Exactly. There's nothing. Well, freedom unlimited over the freedom flex. That's what I meant to say. Freedom unlimited over the freedom flex for someone starting out much simpler, much easier, you know, set it and forget it. So to speak, you don't have to think

about anything. Right. Right. And dining's got to be like one of the top categories of spend of, of any young person. I think one of the top, we're going to get to the top very soon, but the other, I can't remember if you said this or not, if you did, it still bears repeating. One great thing about either of the freedoms as a starting card is that as you collect rewards, if you later are ready to move into really great rewards, you can add in something like the Sapphire preferred card to your wallet. And that's great because that will unlock the ability to transfer points to transfer partners and be able to get really outsized value. So the same

points that you earned on your Freedom card can then be moved to your Sapphire preferred card and then transferred, for example, to Hyatt, United, a number of other programs. And it's possible once you know what you're doing to get way more than one cent per point value that you'd get just by cashing out the points. Yeah, yeah. It's nice for that, for the ability to collect a stash of points

that you can someday use for much more value. It's kind of like having a savings account or something that's like growing, even though it's not really growing and the value of points doesn't really increase. But the value of your points will significantly increase if you ever choose to learn about transfer partners and get a Sapphire Preferred. So it does at least give you the chance to get far outsized value, whereas earning Discover Cash, you're never going to get far

outsized value with that. You might get a little bit with those gift card transactions you mentioned, but you're not going to get like that trip to Bora Bora or whatever. It might not probably not. Right. Right. And if, if you're, you know, living at home with your parents at the time you sign up for it, then your home address is the same as theirs. And if one of them has a Sapphire preferred Sapphire reserve, Inc business for one of the cards that allows transfers, you should be able to move your points to them. And then they could transfer to, for example, Hyatt in order to book a great stay for you to get your outsized value.

So that's a really other ways of, of magnifying your, your value. That's a really good point because I mean, if you're a student actually, and you get to the point, you're junior senior senior year, and you're taking a spring break trip somewhere, a Hyatt place like a category one or two Hyatt place that's 5,000 or 8,000 points per night might be golden for you. Right. I mean, it might be, there are places where you can get one really cheaply and maybe be in a beachy type of a destination and, and do it for very few points. So I feel like that, that has a lot of potential too, when you're getting started, the fact that Hyatt has that award chart where you can get reasonably decent

hotels at very cheap points prices. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not unusual at all to see, you know, a hotel costing 5,000 Hyatt points that would have cost, you know, $200. Right. And so, you know, that's talking about like $50 worth of your points used for a $200 stay. And that's what we're talking about in outsized value. Right. Right. All right. So I think that's good, but, but I was a little hesitant actually, when talking about the freedom unlimited thinking, yeah, but that person starting out is going to probably end up redeeming those gift cards or for cash. And they're going to have a one and a half percent cash back card and they can be doing better than that. Right.

Right. Right. So, you know, one of our favorite cash back cards is the Citi Double Cash, which gives you, in effect, 2% cash back everywhere. The way it works is you earn 1% when you make a purchase and you earn the other 1% when paying off your bill for that purchase. At the front of this program, we said, you're paying in full every month. So we're gonna assume that if you're doing this at all, you are earning 2% for every purchase, right? The earning, the rewards come in the form of thank you points, which can be redeemed for cash back. And it has the same advantage of the, or similar advantage to the Freedom Cards in that

later on, you could tack on, for example, the city premier card and get the ability to transfer points to hotel and airline partners. And in this case, if you have a family member or friend who has a city premier card or prestige card, you don't even need necessarily to have been in the same address. You could transfer your points to them as long as they very quickly then transfer the points to a hotel or airline partner and book a reward for you. Then you can get outsized value right from the get-go. Right. I mean, if I had a kid in college and I had the city premier card and the kids in college, then I, that might be a good strategy. I think where I would say, okay, well, you get the double

cash. That's going to give you a reasonable return. If you want cash back for something that I'm not going to give you the money for, then you'll have your cash back there. And then, uh, and if you want to travel, then you can transfer those points to me and I can help you book it. So I feel like that would be a reasonable solution if you're a parent that has the premier particularly, and you've got a college student child. I think that's probably a really good strategy. Or even if you're a young professional, just graduated college, not a bad strategy to start out with that, to have that good base earnings and the potential for something more later on. So I think I like the double cash, even though I don't love Citi thank you points as much as I like other transferable currencies. I feel like this gives you kind of the best of both worlds with

no annual fees. So you don't have to worry about paying anything up front. There's part of me that would be tempted to say, oh, a venture card, because then you get the ability to transfer to partners or use 2% towards travel, essentially. But then you have to pay $95 a year for it. So I feel like this is a good introduction for free. That doesn't cost you anything. The problem is that the double cash usually doesn't come with a welcome offer. And so the value there may be erased, right? The extra half a percent you're going to earn on purchases may well be erased by the fact that you could

have gotten $150 or $200 on the Freedom card with very few purchases. Right. And don't forget, you're not getting 3X for dining and drugstores. So, you know, yeah, you know, I it's close, but I kind of edge towards preferring the unlimited, the freedom unlimited over the double cash for that reason. And also for like the idea of like which program would I want to invest in long term Chase Ultimate Rewards or Citi Thank You Points. And even though I've been really loving my Thank You Points lately, because the ability to transfer one to two to choice, that's a very specific use case that I can enjoy that because I have other options when choice doesn't work out for me. But if you're looking for a program that's going to meet most of your needs, I don't see Citi being that program. So I like the idea more of starting with the Freedom Unlimited because it gets you started in a program that does have a future and does have a way of meeting most of your needs in the future.

That makes some sense. That makes some sense. I could probably let that slide and say, okay, that's not bad. And of course, keep in mind, all of the cards we've talked about so far have no annual fee. So you don't have to have only one credit card. And we're obviously not the kind of people who are only going to have one credit card. We've got lots and lots. So I could definitely see the wisdom in having both for a young person. And in fact, your score will probably end up being higher if you have a few credit cards than if you only have one credit card. So it probably makes sense to get more than one. However, I know that probably the majority of people starting out are going to

look to start with one. And so that's what we're talking about here, the starter. Yeah. But, you know, when you talk about that, if you want to expand to more than one and you want to keep the annual fee to zero, Citi actually has a very, very strong program in that regard. That's true. So, you know, add in the rewards plus card. Why haven't we talked about the custom cash? Because that card. And add in the custom cash.

Well, forget about adding it in. Maybe that makes more sense than the double cash, right? Because we get 5% back and up to $500 a month in the category in which you spend the most out of categories that young people are likely to spend a bunch in. So if you don't spend a whole lot, you may not spend a whole lot more than the 500 to begin with.

And 5% on that 500 without having to select anything, right? Don't you think it might be worth more? That is true. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I, I feel like there's a, there's a good chance that people's like regular spend might, might spread out between, you know, five or six different things. And if, if let's say it spreads evenly among five different things, then you're just getting 1X basically. Or I'm sorry, you're getting, I guess you're getting almost 2X actually.

So yeah. Yeah, I don't know. So I looked at it. Maybe that is pretty good because you are getting 1X on the ones that don't earn 5X. Right. So I figured if you end up maxing out $500 on a single category every month,

that's $25 in cash back. So if you're using a 2% card, you'd have to spend $1,250 to earn $25 cash back. Whereas you're probably fairly likely to earn $25 cash back every month with $500 spend. I mean, probably. I think most people are going to come pretty close to that. And then you got your 1% categories too.

I don't know. I could see the custom cash perhaps being perhaps. Yeah. You're making a good, you're making a good point. Yeah. It's, it's definitely worth considering. It's more limited because if you have only that, you can't transfer your points to a friend or family member. They don't allow that. And so your only hope then is to later get like a city premier and combine the thank you accounts so that you then have transfer power. So yeah, that's a downside, but yeah, you made it, you made a point you might, you might do better, but ultimately I like the idea if, if you're, if you're really into, you know, no annual fee, if that's really important to you,

you know, start with, let's say the double cash or the custom cash later, add the other one and, and add the rewards plus all three of them. Well, the rewards plus in the custom cash each have signup bonuses. So you can, you can be earning some good cash back from those as well and do pretty well. So let me ask you this. If you're going to do one card and you decide that you want this whole five X thing, would it be the freedom flex or the custom cash that you would recommend to a young person kind of starting out here? If they want one of these five X cards, which one's the better one to get? The Freedom Flex or the Custom Cash? Yeah. I think I'd go with the Freedom Flex, honestly, because you know

what? Even when you're not earning 5X, you're earning, again, we talked about the 3X on dining and at drugstores. So that's pretty good. And again, you're building up your chase ultimate rewards points, which could be useful. Um, so, so I'd give that the edge, but I could see making an argument for the other. Yeah. Interesting. So the tight, tight race here, but all of those things out of the way, of course, you knew we're going to talk about the built card this week because built has made a splash. And the thing is, you look at all of the things we've talked about so far, and imagine the expenses that a young person has. And we're thinking probably they're not spending a whole ton each month, $500, maybe $1,000, maybe $1,000

a month. If you're relatively young and just starting out, that still seems like it might be a lot for a lot of young people on a credit card. I think so, yeah. But you're probably spending more than that on one bill alone, your rent. That's right. And the bill card is going to give you a chance to earn rewards on that. Right, right, right. So, yeah. And so, you know, it's hitting the sweet spot, I think, for the young adult just starting out, most of whom are probably renting. And so, you know, why wouldn't you want a fee-free card that rewards you for paying rent

and it gives you what, 3x for dining and 2x for travel, 1x everywhere else. And we forgot the kicker. You don't need to later add on another card to make these points transferable to get outsized value. It comes with that ability, right? So you could transfer your points once you earn them to American Airlines, to Hyatt, to United, to a whole slew of great transfer partners and get truly outsized value once you learn how to do it. And they actually include some tutorials right in the you learn how to do it. And they actually include some tutorials right in the app of how to do exactly that. Right. I mean, I think that it really, you know, when you, when you think about it this way, when you think about that young

professional, maybe just out of college, 22 years old, and you think about the fact that, you know, I don't know where their starting salary is going to be, but let's for just argument's sake, say their rent is even a1,000 a month, which would be fantastic. I think in most American cities, you'd be very lucky to pay that little. But so you're talking $12,000 a year in rent. And let's say they have $1,000 a month in expenses. That's another 12,000. So we're at 24,000 in spend each year, which seems like a relatively high amount for a starting salary, a starting person, right? They probably aren't even going to be spending quite that much on ancillary stuff. The rent's probably going to take up a larger percentage. So if you're earning one X on the rent, then that

really helps to take care of whatever you might have lost on another purchase that could have been a bonus category elsewhere, right? I mean, you're basically earning two X essentially on all of your spend because you're earning this one X on something that you wouldn't have earned anything. Right. Right. Right. And I don't think it's unrealistic to say that a lot of people probably spend twice as much on rent as they do on the other categories where they usually use a credit card. So in that case, you're really getting sort of the equivalent of 3x everywhere and slightly more than that on the bonus categories, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. And then I think we also should talk about some of the benefits because when I look at this, I know a lot of bloggers have written about the built cart this week. And I know some people get skeptical about that because a lot of people are

writing about it at once. But the bottom line is this cart is interesting and exciting for its target market. It's not exciting for me. It's not going to probably make its way into my wallet. But when I look at this young person starting out, I say, okay, here's a card that offers cell phone insurance with a $50 deductible. So I mean, what young person doesn't have a phone? And that's probably, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the most valuable possession that the average young person has, right? I mean, unless you get a car, which a lot of young people probably do, but in cities, it's probably not that common for young people not to have a car. And if you don't have a car, then the phone is probably the most valuable thing you own. So having insurance on that from the credit card is useful, right? I mean, that

helps. I'd go even further to say, it might not be, you know, if they have a car, it might not be, the phone might not be the most expensive thing they own, but it might be the most valuable to them thing they own. Right. If you're forced to give up one or the other, what are you going to give up? Probably give up the car. Yeah, right. Exactly. There's a bus somewhere I can catch, right? So, yeah, I mean, so that, A, that's huge.

The card comes with primary rental car coverage. Now that's something we just learned the other night. And so, you know, if you are in that 22, 23 year old kind of range and you're just starting out in a career, maybe you're traveling some, maybe you're booking some rental cars. That's great. That's a great benefit to have that typically you have to pay an annual fee on a card for. I'm not sure off the top of my head. I can't think of, maybe there is one, maybe you're going to think of one, but I don't know of another card that offers primary rental

car coverage with no annual fee. Maybe there is one. I haven't even thought about it until I said the sentence. I just don't know off the top of my head. I couldn't say. All of the ones that I can think of that offer primary rental coverage anyway, have annual fees, Sapphire Preferred, most of the Chase cards that are $95-ish a year have primary rental card coverage, the Venture card. I mean, almost everything that comes to mind immediately is at least a $95 annual fee. So I think that's a potentially huge thing. There's no foreign transaction fees, whereas- So that's amazing. Yeah. All the other ones except Discover that we talked about do have foreign transaction fees. I know, I feel like young adults, you know,

the chance in the post pandemic world of going to Canada, going to Mexico or going further afield is pretty high probably. And you're going to need a card that doesn't charge you a huge fee, or you're certainly going to want one. It's. I think it's such a crime to be paying a 3% fee on all your purchases when you're stuck with one that charges foreign transaction fees. So yeah, Build's got a lot going for it. Now, it doesn't have a rewards program that you could sort of grow into the way that the Chase and CityCards do, right? That's a huge disadvantage. Yeah. You can't build out a wallet full of built cards, right? I mean, it's just one built card, that's it.

Right, right. But I'm not sure that matters. And the reason is like, so when you're ready to move on to have a wallet full of cards, you could tack on a great Chase card that has Ultima Re you know, that has ultimate rewards that transfer to partners. You could tack on a great Amex card that has membership rewards points that transfer to partners and a city card. And the neat thing is all of them have transfer

partners in common. So the points you earned in with your built card, you could still transfer, you know, let's say you have a reward that you want to book with, with a particular program. And you've got 20,000 built points and 20,000 chase points. And let's say Hyatt is the one you want. You could transfer them both to get 40,000 Hyatt points and, and book your stay. So, you know, they're, they're not all overlapping like that, but there's enough overlap that it's not like you really have to choose just one when you go for it. No. And that is, I think, such a great point that you will still be able to fill out your

wallet with other cards that are in points that are transferable to the same partners or many of the same partners. That is, I think, huge. And I'm going to add on to that too and say, the thing that I think makes the built card also particularly interesting for those young people starting out with a career is it probably has points that transfer or it has points that transfer probably to the programs you're most likely to get involved in

when you're starting out with business travel because you're probably going to be flying and traveling domestically, I would assume with most jobs, if you've got a job where you have to travel at all. And so you're going to be flying American or United or, you know, or even if you're flying Delta, you could be crediting those flights to Air France and have access to those miles, or you're going to be using Hyatt hotels. So it's giving you access to partners that you're probably already earning some points with. And so I think that that is another- So your point being that then you could top, then if you want to book an award with the points

you've earned through business travel, you might not have earned enough through business travel. So you can move some of your built points over and top it off and have enough to book that award. So that's a great feature. Biggest downside, no signup bonus. Right, right, right. And that obviously is something that we don't like. The people that are rewards card enthusiasts that love chasing bonuses, obviously that seems like a big problem. Is it a deal breaker? Do you think that that's enough? I mean, in this case, when you look at the ability to earn on rent and everything else, all the other advantages we talked about, is the lack of a signup bonus a deal breaker? And do you think

they'll ever offer one? I'm curious what you think. Yeah. So some of the city cards we talked about often have $200 bonuses. The Freedom Cards often have $200 bonuses. The freedom cards often have $200 bonuses. How much rent would you have to pay to sort of, if you think of the rent, the rewards from paying rent, how much rent would you have to pay to get the equivalent of $200? A little less than $1,300 a month, right? So $1,300 a month would be a little over 20,000 points a year that you'd earn from the build cards. So if you're paying at least that much, that's kind of your bonus, right? And then it's a bonus every year that you're paying rent. So yeah, I don't see it as a deal breaker. It's unfortunate. And

a lot of people have asked, do we think that it's worth waiting? Because maybe there'll be a signup bonus. You know, it's possible there'll eventually be a signup bonus. But I think that as long as this card is popular for new people signing up, there's no reason for Bill to spend the money of offering a big signup bonus. And I think it will continue to be popular for a long, long time because all the reasons we just talked about. And so, yeah, I wouldn't wait. Yeah. I mean, Bilt is really, the whole thing has been constructed. I'm going to use the word constructed instead of built twice. In a brilliant way, I think,

in the sense that, yeah, I mean, large welcome bonuses are an expensive acquisition cost. And you're going to draw in people like me and Craig that they don't really want, right? Because we're not spending on rent. We would go after the card

just for the welcome bonus if it offered a big welcome bonus. And Bilt knows that. And they don't want us. They want that young person that's renting an apartment. So they're not looking for me and Greg. So there's not a lot of advantage to offering a welcome bonus. And if there were enough people signing up already with the waitlist system, I can only imagine how many people are going to be signing up without the waitlist system. I just don't think that they're likely to hit a point anytime soon where there aren't enough renters in the world that aren't familiar enough to have a wallet full of credit cards. Because

let's be real, the average American has what, like one or two credit cards or something? Average young American, I should say. I guess average American probably has a few more, but probably not a whole bunch of rewards cards either. When you look at how many credit cards the average American has, it's probably like a local credit union card, a local bank card that might not even earn anything. It's just got a good interest rate or something. So when you look at actually how many rewards credit cards does the average person have? You have to remember we're the outliers here. You know, like we're bringing that number up, whatever it is. So built isn't looking for us. They're looking for those other people that rent. And I think also brilliant because I know that

some landlords that are part of the Bilt Rewards Alliance or whatever that are bought into this thing offer points for signing a new lease or that sort of stuff. And that is brilliant too, because I'm sure the landlord must be funding that. So essentially, Built is getting somebody else to fund their welcome bonus in those cases. So I think it's smartly put together from a business standpoint. I admire some of the, not admire, maybe that's not the right word. I respect some of the intelligence that went into creating it that way. So I don't imagine that there's going to be a welcome bonus coming. That said, now that they're partnering with Wells Fargo, who knows? Wells Fargo's got the resources that they can probably afford to waste some money on a welcome bonus to acquire customers, but I don't know that they will. Like you said, I probably wouldn't wait. Right. So would you recommend the built card for every person asking that question? What should my starter card be? I'm starting out and

I do rent. So for everyone who rents, would you recommend the built card? I think I would have a hard time imagining why I wouldn't. So I'm curious to see why you would say no. I can't think of a good reason why I wouldn't because you'd earn so many points on your rent that you wouldn't earn otherwise and three acts on dining still. So a great return on dining, and you'll be able to transfer to partners without getting a second card or paying an annual fee. And those partners are valuable. We haven't really gotten into that, but we've talked about it before. They've got really good partners. So I really can't think of like, if we're going to recommend a city card and tell somebody to get

a city card. And we know that those partners aren't nearly as valuable where we tell somebody to get a freedom or freedom flex, and they can't transfer to partners unless they also get a $95 card. Yeah. I feel like if you rent and you're young and getting started out, I think the built card just makes the most sense. And I was skeptical. I have to admit in the beginning with the bill card, I was kind of like, eh, I don't know. All right. I'm going to tell you why you're wrong. I'm going to tell you why you're wrong. It is not the right card for the average renter because unlike Discover, unlike Chase, unlike Citi, the points, if you just want cash back, aren't worth anywhere near a penny each. And so the only way to get good value, at least as things stand

now, and with my understanding, the only way to get good value for those points, transfer to transfer partners, which it does have that big edge over the others of allowing that directly. But most people, the average person isn't going to know to do that. They're not going to know how to do that. They're not going to know how to get best value from doing that. So I would recommend it to someone who I know is like smart enough to be able to figure that out and, and, you know, or will come ask me, I want to redeem these points. How should I do it? But the average person is going to cash it out at bad value or, or use it to pay their rent at really bad value, that's a shame. That's going to wipe out all the advantages.

Right. No, that's a very, very good point. Although, so I'm curious. So, yes, my initial reaction is you're absolutely right that that's a fantastic point that the average person starting out either A, isn't going to learn enough about the transfer partners or B, they're going to transfer to partners and still use the miles at poor value. You know, they might use a billion American airlines miles to get a subscription to a magazine or something. And so they still,

although I have to say it usually at least if you transfer, usually you'll get around a penny a point if you don't know what you're doing. So, so, so at least, at least that probably is better than, than paying your rent with points. Probably. But then, yes, you're going to have people paying their rent with points and making poor decisions.

The vast majority of people don't use their points well in all of the programs. Forget about just- That's true. It's true. It's true in all of these programs. Right.

And that's a good point to make. And so I really like that the other programs we discussed allow you to just easily just say, I just want cash and, and, and get that at a penny per point. So you're not, you're not losing anything over a straight up cash. That definitely makes sense, but okay. So here's, here's what I was trying to think through and I haven't thought through it yet. So maybe I'll, I'll get halfway into this and realize I'm wrong, but so you can redeem built points at half a 0.55 cents each towards the rent, I think is what it is, right?

So just over a half a cent each. So if your rent is, you said double maybe your other expenses, right? So let's say your rent is $2,000 a month. Your other expenses is $1,000 a month. Just keep the math easy. So you're essentially earning the equivalent of three acts on your everywhere else purchases. Right. So three times zero point five five. That's what? One point seven five. So that's not as horrible as it initially sounded when you when you said, oh, you're going to get really

poor value towards the rent. It's not as good as a 2% card. It's better than one and a half on a Freedom Flex. So it's not necessarily horrible, even if you use it at horrible value, kind of, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, so there it'll depend on how much your rent is compared to your other spend, but that's true. And then if you're earning 3X on dining,

then it's even a little bit more than what we just talked about. So, you know, again, your point is well taken and well made. And I think it's an important one to highlight. But it's also, I think the case that a lot of people are going to earn a lot more points with their rent. So, so you really have to consider that a little bit. Maybe you're right though. So, so which one, which one is it? So, so if it's someone who pays rent and, like they're interested in learning the game and smart enough to do so, absolutely. I don't think there's any question. Built is the one for them.

They're not interested in that kind of stuff or they don't pay rent. Oh, wow. I'm going to go with, oh boy, Freedom Unlimited, I think. Freedom Unlimited, you think? Yeah. You can say that and I understand why I would go with the custom cash. I think you're going to earn more cash back long-term with recognizing the shortcomings. I do recognize the shortcomings, but I think that for that person who is primarily going to be redeeming for cash back, because you're right, the vast majority of people are not going to learn about the rewards programs. And so if there's any chance that you're that kind of person, I think you're going to end up earning a lot more with the custom cash card.

Yeah. Yeah. That could be true. That could be true. Hard to tell. Jeff Booth Hard to tell. It is. It is. Preston Pyshko Because the way it works of giving a 5X only in one category that you spend the most each month, but at least it is the one you spend the most. So you'll accidentally be earning at least a reasonable X as long as you're spending around $500 or less each month. Yeah, you know, I'd be interested in doing the math. I'm not going to do it here on the show, but doing the math and how much, like everywhere else spend at 1X,

like where is it that you come out better than a 2%? Yeah. Yeah. How much spend? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to work on that after the show.

There you go. There you go. All right. So I think that there's some interesting considerations anyway here between these cards. And there's not a one size fits all answer, but we came to some agreement. But the bill's close, but it has the caveats that we mentioned. Only if you're renting. I think only if you're renting.

Or I think the bill card also could be useful for people who are going to do a more than one card wallet but don't want annual fees because i think i would rather have three exit restaurants on the built card than three x on a chase card personally because i i hide as the chase partner i value the most and united is probably the one i value the second most and and and built got those. So you already got that. Plus you get American and you get some other stuff that chase doesn't have. So absolutely. I would totally agree with that. Okay. So, all right. That brings us, I think to the post roast, which I know you don't have a post roast this week, right?

I already roasted you. We talked about you're crazy and you know, you left out. So that's right. That that's right uh no i don't have a post this week so let's go right to the question of the week right to the question of the week i'm excited because this week's question of the week is an award booking question and it's something that i think we touched on briefly in a conversation a while back but it's worth a highlight on its own so ron asks us hi guys i'm looking to book flights book flights from Chicago to Boston for a sporting event on United. The trip is contingent on my team winning a game a few days before my departure date. Can you help me with a couple of potential options as I need a lot of flexibility until close to the departure date? United is out at face value as I don't have status and I'd have to pay $125

cancellation fee. However, I can change the flight less than 31 days from departure for no fee. So can I book this and then change the date to the future and then cancel for free? And so I, if you didn't follow how he was asking that, I want Greg to explain the move. If you've got this situation, cause this is an interesting situation, right? Where you're like, okay, well, maybe I have to go. Maybe I don't. I won't know until a couple of days beforehand. I don't know if my team's going to win.

How do you get the flexibility you need? Yeah. Yeah. So let me just clarify. He's booking an award with United? Correct. Not paying cash for United. Yeah.

We talked about that separately. The award, I think, is the part that we're going to. Right. Right. So, you know, during the pandemic, all of the domestic airlines, the major ones added the great ability to, you know, make free changes to both paid and award tickets as long as they weren't basic economy. And they also allow the ability to cancel award tickets and get both your points and any taxes you paid back. United, though, added a strange exception that in order to get your money and miles back

when you cancel a United award ticket, it has to be more than 30 days from the date of travel. You have to do it at least 30 days before the date of travel. If you don't cancel at least 30 days in advance, then they tack on $125 cancellation. Right, right, right. But they don't have that requirement for changes as this person mentioned. So I've done exactly this. So, you know, I had a United award flight that I'd actually booked as like a backup in case my earlier flight the same day didn't work out. And when the earlier flight did work out, I just changed the date on this award ticket to two months from now on the United Award. And then,

and I did this right from like the mobile app and I then went right back in and just canceled it and it canceled for free and got all my, you know, points back. So it's, it's really easy. It's one of those things that we, you know, we don't want to shout in headlines, but, you know, I'll certainly answer it as a question when, when people ask how to, how to do that, or, you know, is there, is there a way for me to get my, my to cancel this without the fee? Yeah. There's a way. Here's how to do it. The reason we don't want to shout it is like United will block that loophole somehow. They might start charging for changes. We don't want that. Right. We don't want that. Although in the current market, it would be hard, I think, for them to start charging

for changes since everybody else is allowing easy free cancellations. So I think in the market now, that's less likely than when this trick worked in the past. It's like a very small loophole that you couldn't get elsewhere. But nowadays, of course, with free cancellations on a lot of different airlines, it's very easy to book these sort of things and not have to worry about it. You can cancel with no fee up to very shortly before departure on most airlines. So that is great. I think that makes these kinds of things possible where you can book that and be like, all right, did my team make it or not? And, and, uh, or any other type of speculative trip, really.

So, so fun trick. Exactly. I absolutely love that. Yep. All right. So that brings us to the end. We hope you guys have enjoyed today's show. And if you have, and you'd like to get on our email list and get our posts in your inbox,

you want to go to frequent miler.com slash subscribe again, that's frequent miler.com slash subscribe to join our email list. You can follow us on all the various social medias. Join our Frequent Miler Insiders Facebook group where you can connect with other people, ask and answer questions about all this stuff we've been discussing. And if you would like to ask a question or give us some feedback, you can send that to mailbag at frequentmiler.com or.net. Or just call Nick at home at 212.

Right, right, right, right. Please don't. Please don't. So don't do that. Thank you for being out there and listening this week. Oh, and please don't forget to like, subscribe. Leave us a comment. That helps us enable notifications

wherever you're listening to the show or watching the show. We appreciate that very much. Sure do. Bye, everybody.