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Al Pacino & Sidney Lumet: 'Dog Day Afternoon' At 50

October 3, 20250 comments♥ 0
00:00Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right.Learn more at RWJF.org.This is Fresh Air. I'm David B. and Cooley.Today's show is devoted to a film that was made 50 years ago, but is regarded half a century later as one of the most daring, vibrant, and important movies of the 1970s.The movie, 1975's Dog Day Afternoon, was based on a real-life Brooklyn bank robbery that had occurred three years earlier.The bank robber, who was married, was hoping to escape with enough cash to finance the sex change operation for his male lover.But mid-robbery, the bank was surrounded by police, TV news crews, and Brooklyn onlookers,
00:51and escalated into a tense hostage situation and media circus.Al Pacino, fresh from filming Godfather 2, starred as Sunny the bank robber.Sidney Lumet, who already had directed Pacino in the intense cop drama Serpico, was the director.Before staging and photographing the first scene, Lumet held weeks of rehearsal with the cast,encouraging them to improvise. He carried that same spirit into the on-location filming,and every scene crackles with energy. Here's an early scene, with Pacino as Sunny,inside the bank with his hostages,and with the detective outside,
01:30played by Charles Durning,making first contact by phoning the bank.Is it Detective Sergeant Eugene already?Yeah.Okay.You're in there, we're out here.What are we doing now?I don't know.
01:42What do we do?I shouldn't...First of all, the people of the bank are okay.They were okay.You alone, you've got Confederates.I'm not alone.I got Sam.What's that for us?
01:55Salvatore?Yeah.Sam.He's a killer.We're Vietnam veterans, so killing don't mean anything to us.You understand?In the army?In the army?
02:04Yeah.Okay, so there's you.What's your name?What do you want to know my name for?Give me a name, any name, just so I've got something to call you.Ah, come on, let's be reasonable, okay?Let's give me the name, all right?Uh...
02:24Uh, call me Sunny.Sunny.Yeah.Today on Fresh Air, we feature archive interviews with both the star and director of Dog Day Afternoon,beginning with the film's director, Sidney Lumet.Sidney Lumet cut his teeth as a director in the early days of television, directing both live and filmed productions.In the early 50s, he directed episodes of the history reenactment series You Are There,the sitcom Mama, the arts series Omnibus, and many installs.
02:54of live TV anthology drama series.One of his first of those was the 1952 CBS Television Workshop production of Don Quixote,starring Boris Kailoff and Grace Kelly.Sidney Lumet made the transition to the big screen by directing the movie version of a live TV drama,12 Angry Men, in 1957.But he kept alternating between film and television, doing strong work wherever he went.In 1960, his brilliant TV TV.adaptation of Eugene O'Neill's The Iceman Cometh starred Jason Robards and featured a young
03:30Robert Redford. In the 60s, Sydney Lumet directed a string of classic films, including thepawnbroker and failsafe. In the 70s, after Dog Day Afternoon, his next three films werePatty Chayefsky's network, Equis, and The Wiz. And in the 80s, he directed Christopher Reeve andMichael Kane in Death Trap and Paul Newman in The Verdict.Sidney Lumet was awarded an honorary lifetime achievement Oscar in 2005.Terry Gross spoke with Sidney Lumet in 1988.You've made about 38 movies in a little over 30 years.And it reminds me of the old studio days in a way
04:09when there were a lot of movies being madeand when directors and actors used to do a lot of movies per year.How have you managed to keep that pace up,especially considering how the movie industry has changed?Lucky, Terry.I love work and I love moviesI think if I hadif I could ever
04:29these things are clearlyimpossiblebut if I could have had the artistic freedom that I enjoy nowunder the old studio systemwhich would have been impossible by the wayI think I would have been very happy working in a studiobecause I love going from one project to anotherI love
04:49when I work with actors whowho I find exciting to work with.I love repeating with themand working with them again and again.So you think of yourself as having more artistic freedom nowthan you did when you were startingbecause of how the movie industry has changed?Not partially.
05:05Or because of your stature.Part of it is muscle.You get a couple of hits behind youand you can slowly start encroaching into that area.But I think you're right.I think the studio system has changed.I don't think that Louis B. Mayor would have given me final cut,no matter how many hits I'd add.
05:27He would have never given up that prerogative.Now, you insist on that, right?When you take on a movie, you must have final cut,which means what exactly?Well, it means that there can be nothing.The film cannot be touched after you finish editing it,whether in the soundtrack or visually, it's yours.What kind of problem had you run into with previous movies
05:46that taught you you needed to demand final cut?Well, as an example, many, many years ago, I did a very, very interesting picture, I think, a very good picture.It's one of the few that I like better now than at the time that I did it.A picture called The Hill with Sean Connery, and it was not much of a success in America, but a good picture.And at that time, I did it to Metro Goldwyn-Mayer, and at that time they were,being owned by a new person. They were changing hands almost daily. There were three newmanagement in the period of a year. And at one point, they just said it as a matter of companypolicy that a picture had to run one hour and 55 minutes because they thought that this
06:38would work well for their relationships with the exhibitors. And the picture ran two hoursin two minutes, and they justinsisted that I takeseven minutes out. They didn't care where it came from.It didn't matter to them thatthere were no seven minutes to take out withoutdestroying the movie. And it was ahell of a battle, and the only reason I won it,
06:57actually, was because management changed handsagain, and the new management came in, which waslistened with slightly more sympathetic years.But if the old management hadcontinued running Metro,they simply would have taken the film and removedseven minutes, period.And that kind of thing goes on constantly.
07:15A great many directors have suffered very severely from that.And that's still going on.Oh, yeah.Let's talk a little bit about your first film made in 1957,and this was 12 Angry Men, a courtroom drama.You had before that been directing television, live television dramas.Was this a good transition to make since it was basically a one-set movie?It's a courtroom drama.
07:36It's a jury drama.They're in the deliberation room, most of the movie.Was that a good place to start?It was good, and it was a great problem,except that I was dumb enough not to know what the problem was.I found out after I had done the movie and people liked it,that it was very difficult to shoot a movie in one room.That never occurred to me.
07:56Really?I had just plunged in with complete ignorance,knowing what I wanted to do with camera,knowing that I could make the camera a good interpretive part of the movie itself,and just blithely went ahead, shot it in 19 days,happy as a lockand didn't know what the problem was.I may have felt enormously secure
08:19at the confinement of itbecause my background, as you say,had been live television and the theater.So the idea of staging something in one roomwas something that came very easily to me.Well, the movie starred Henry Fonda and Lee J. Cobb.Fonda is the only juror initially convincedof the defendant's innocent, Cobb, is the last holdout.
08:42I want to play a clip from this movie, 12 Angry Men.Do you ever see a woman who had to wear glasses and didn't want tobecause she thinks they spoil her looks?Okay, she had marks on her nose.I'm giving you that from glasses, right?She didn't want to wear them out of the houseor people think she's gorgeous.But when she saw this kid killing his father,
09:03she was in the house alone.That's all.You wear glasses when you go to bed.No, I don't.No one wears eyeglasses to bed.It's logical to assume that she wasn't wearing them when she was in bed,tossing and turning, trying to fall asleep.How do you know?
09:21I don't know, I'm guessing.I'm also guessing that she probably didn't put her glasses onwhen she turned and looked casually out of the window.And she herself testified the killing took place just as she looked out.The lights went off a split second later.She couldn't have had time to put them on there.Wait a second.Here's another guess.
09:35Maybe she honestly thought she saw the boy kill his father.I say she only saw a blur.How do you know what she saw?How does he know all that?How do you know what kind of glasses she wore?Maybe there was sunglasses, maybe she was far-sighted.What do you know about her?I only know the woman's eyesight is in question now.
09:52She had to be able to identify a person 60 feet away at night without glasses.You can't send someone off to die on evidence like that?Oh, don't give me that?Don't you think the woman might have made a mistake?No.It's not possible?No, it's not possible.It's a heck of a cast.
10:12In addition to Fonda and Lee J. Cobb, you have Jack Warden, Jack Klugman, E. G. Marshall, at Begley,you directed them your first time out on film, and you've since directed Paul Newmanand younger actors like Al Pacino and Treet Williams.Is there a difference in the acting styles of the actors who you were directing in the 50sand the actors who came of age in, say, the 70s?Not really, Terry.They, the basic craft of acting is, in the United States,has been set for some years, really,
10:45even before the method came in.Basically, people like Fonda worked out of a profound sense of truth.In fact, a man like Fonda didn't know how to do anything falselyand used himself, used himself brilliantly.Both of those elements are foundations of the method.And even though he wasn't called a method actorin the sense of having studied the method,he basically worked out of that as most good actors did.
11:14Do you think of yourself as a method director?No, I become the kind of directorthat becomes whatever his actors needs.When I did murder on the Orient Express,I could work the way the English actors work.When we did Long Day's Journey in Tonight,there was a perfect example.Kate Hepburn has a very specific way of working her own technique.
11:38Ralph Richardson is a prime example of British technique,which is primarily from what we call the outside in.Dean Stockwell works completely method from the inside out,and Jason has his own glorious world of creating something from inside himselfand heaven knows where it comes from.But I think part of the job of directing is to notmake the actors work your way, but for you to work as a director any way that makes them comfortable.You directed Al Pacino in two of his first big movie roles, Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon.
12:14I want to play a short scene from Doug Day Afternoon, and maybe you could tell me what you think.Al Pacino needed when he was getting started.This is a scene from the very opening of the movie when Pacino walks into a New York bank and he holds it upand he wants the money to buy a sex change operation for his lover.Alright, please!Nobody moved!Get over there!Okay.
12:38All right, get away from those alarms.Cut it!I'm get in the center.He moves, take his head off.Put the gun on it.Get out of the second.Sonny?I can't do it, Sonny.
12:52What?I'm not gonna make it, Sonny.What are you talking about?Put it on it.I can't do it, Sonny.Sal.Sal, what? Where are you? She can't make it.It's an interesting performance because Pichino is so manic in it
13:10and yet so insecure and incompetent at robbing this bank.What did he need when he was getting started?You were talking before about giving actors what you think they need.Primarily what he needed was he needed a great sense of freedomand a great sense of restriction.That the creation of the character is really Al's own.He understood something about that manthat is irreplaceable
13:36and I don't think a director can ever givehe understood him down to his bone marrowwhat he neededwas a sense of releasethe confidence to know that as extremeas he got in the performancethat it would writethat it went
13:54for example there's a scene toward the end of the moviewhere he's talking to his female wifehis real wife on the telephonetrying to decide what to do.And the scene is extraordinaryin the sense that it requires a level of emotionthat I've seen very rarely in movies.We did the scene in one take
14:18because I, with two cameras,because I didn't want him to have to repeat that emotionover and over again.And when he finished it the first time,it was wonderfuland without waiting an instantI didn't even cut the camerasI said I'll go again
14:38and he looked at me like I was crazybecause he was exhausted he was spentand I said right now actionand what I was driving atwas that he had reached such a heightat the end of the first takesuch an emotional peakbut that's really where I wanted the scene to begin
14:55andand heIt's one of the best pieces of movie acting I've ever seen.It was blinding in its intensity, agonizingly painful,and just reached a level of emotion that, as I say,that I don't think I've seen often in movie acting.And that knowledge that he could go as far as he wanted towithin the confines of this situation and that man,
15:30the situation created by the script,the man created by Pacino,but that confidence to know that he could go as far as his feelings would carry himwas very important to him,and that was really the biggest single directing relationship to his performance.Here's the scene from Dog Day afternoon that Lumet was just talking about.Al Pacino's character, Sonny, is doing his best to keep it together.The bank robbery is falling apart.
15:56He has a bank full of hostages,and he's dealing with the police and the hostage negotiator.In the midst of the chaos, he calls his wife.I'm dying, you know that?I'm dying here.Sonny, I blame myself.I notice you've been tense like something has happened.Like night before last, you're yelling at the kids like a madman.
16:15And then you want me to go on that ride that.A caterpillar, from here to there, full of those kids.It's ridiculous.I'm not about to go on the ride.See, he yell at me.You pig, get on the fucking ride.Well, everything fell out of me.My heart and my liver just fell to the floor.
16:30I mean, everything.You know what it felt like you yelled at me like that in front of all them people?I mean, because you never talk to me like that.I think he's going to shoot me.He's going to dump my body in the river.Angie, when you're just shut up.I mean, I was scared of you.I was scared.
16:45Will you shut the fuck and listen to me?Just listen to me.You see?You see that?See?With the language and everything.Well, I'm talking.I'm trying to talk to you.
16:54and a person can't communicate with you.I wonder if you ever run into conflictswhere there's one actor in a scenewho works really well on that first or second takeand another actor who sees it as their styleto go for 15 or 16 takesuntil they really get it perfect.What do you do if you run into that?
17:12I have run into it,and so far, if there were a piece of wood around the studio,I'd knock on it.But so far, I've been able to convincethe 15 or 16 take actor, the other works.The early takes are not imperfect.They are usually the freshest, truest.The repetition I find, and I think for most good actors,
17:35the repetitions tend to become mechanical.One doesn't find more truth in it as it goes on.Now, that partially has to do with the way I workbecause, as you know or may know,I rehearse very heavily.I rehearsed two to three weeksdepending on the complexity of the charactersbefore we begin
17:57and those rehearsals are conductedlike theater rehearsals in the sense thatpeople learn their lines completelyare working without scripts, they're completely blockedto the degree that we're having run-throughsby the end of it. So it's not asif once we get on camerathat this is their first exposure.
18:13Is that uncommon? Yes,it is. It is. It is not done often.I think mostly those of us whowere trained in television do it, I think Arthur Penndoes it. I know Arthur Penn does it. JohnFrankenheimer and so on. Oh, because you had to do itfor the live drama. That's right.But it turned out
18:29for all of us, I think, in movies to have otheradvantages. You know, between12 Angry Men, the verdictSerpico and Prince of the City,you've done your share ofpolice and legaldramas. Is this a special interest of yoursor did you just like those scripts and want to do
18:45them? It's funny, Terry.You know, I don't really analyzethese things. I just respond instinctively,to a piece of material.But obviously something in me somewhereis very involved with that level of life.Where it comes from, I don't know,but on looking back on it,
19:03boy, there are an awful lot ofwhat I call justice stories.They somehow involve me very viscerally.Have you been affected by the new craze of market research?Yes, and fortunately,I've had my artistic controls in place,before they ever came along,because I think they are disastrous,
19:25I think they're destructive.I also think they're untrue.I think a person changesas soon as you ask them something.So do you have a no-market research clausewhen you take on a film?No, because I can't prevent the studio from doing it,but I sure in hell don't let it affect
19:39any of my decisions about what I'm going to do with the picture.You obviously love film directing.When you're doing a movie,what's the part that you most look forward toand the part that you most look forward to,and the partthat you know you have to do, but you really don't enjoy it all?There's only one part that I have to do, all of it is a thrilling process to me,
20:02pre-production, shooting, post-production, editing, music.The only part that's a bit of a drag is what we call the mix,which is when we come in and do the final soundtrackand put every chair squeak in and every door slam in.It requires enormous concentration because it's largely a mechanical processrather than a creative one.Although some directors use it very creatively, the soundtrack that I keep remembering particularly is the soundtrack of Apocalypse now,which was a brilliant piece of work and a totally creative piece of work.
20:34However, you do have to do it.I feel I have to do it myself because if the mix is a bad mix, if the wrong thing is emphasized,it can seriously affect the movie and be very destructive to a movie.So I have to do it, but it's the only non-joyful part of movie making to me.Sidney Lumet, speaking to Terry Gross in 1988. He died in 2011 at age 86.Coming up, we'll hear from the star of Dog Day Afternoon, Al Pacino, as we continue our look at the film which is 50 years old this year. This is fresh air.Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.RWJF is a national philanthropy working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right.
21:20We're continuing our golden anniversary salute to Dog Day Afternoon by hearing from Al Pacino,whose starred as the bank robber sunny in that landmark 1975 film.For Pacino, it was a brilliant performance, but only one among many.The movies in which he has starred and shown brightly include the Godfather films, Scarface,Glen Gary Glenn Ross, Serpico, scent of a woman, and the devil's advocate.For TV, he's played the title role in Phil Spector, Roy Cohn in Angels in America, and starred in the series Hunters.In 2024, he wrote a memoir called Sunny Boy, which is when Terry Gross spoke with him.She started by asking Al Pacino about the first Godfather film and played a scene, which featured not only him as Michael Corleone, but John Cazal as Michael's brother Fredo.
22:16Cazal would share the screen with Pacino once more as his bank-robbing account.accomplice in Dog Day Afternoon.Here's the scene from Godfather 1.Pacino, as Michael, has begun his transformation into the hardened Michael.His father is still alive, but Michael is preparing to take over for him.He's with Mo Green, a Vegas casino owner kind of modeled on Bugsy Segal, and the Corleone familyhas helped back him.Also in the scene are Michael's not very bright brother, Fredo, and the family lawyer, Tom,
22:48played by Robert Duvall.Mo Green is played by Alex Rocco.Michael speaks first.The Corleone family wants to buy you out.The Corleone family wants to buy me out.No.I buy you out. You don't buy me out.Your casino loses money.
23:05Maybe we can do better.You think I'm skimming off the top, Mike?You're unlucky.You damn guineas really make me laugh.You a favor and take Freddy in when you're having a bad time, and then you try to push me out.Wait a minute.You took Freddy in because the Corleone family bankrupted your casino because the Mulanari family on the coast guaranteed his safety.Now, we're talking business. Let's talk business.
23:32Yeah, let's talk business, Mike.First of all, you're all done.The Coyote family don't even have that kind of muscle anymore.The Godfather is sick, right?You're getting chased out of New York by Bazini and the other families.What do you think is going on in?You think you can come to my hotel and take over?I talk to Barzini.
23:48I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel.Is that why you slap my brother around in public?Oh, no, that was nothing, Mike.Now, no, uh, Mo didn't mean nothing by that.Sure, he flies off the handle once in a while, but more than me were good friends, right, Mo?I got a business to run.I got to kick asses sometimes to make a run right.We had a little argument for you and I, so I had to straighten him out.
24:13You straighten my brother out.He was banging cocktail waitresses to order.time. Players couldn't get a drink at the table. What's wrong with you?I leave for New York tomorrow. Think about a price.Do you know who I am? I'm Mo Greene. I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders.Wait a minute, Mo. More, I get an idea. Tom, Tom, you're the conciliary, and you can talk to the Don,you can explain. Just a minute. Don is semi-retired, and Mike is in charge of the family business now.Have anything to say, say it to Michael.
24:51I just love that scene so much.Yeah.It's interesting on radio, too.It works.Just hearing it, not seeing it.Yeah, it does.Yeah.It really does.
25:01I was thinking maybe they'll do the Godfather on radio someday.That's a great idea.Yeah.You know, I interviewed Michael Kane years ago and the great actor Michael Kane,and he was saying, when you were playing a powerful portion,and you don't wave your hands aroundbecause when you have the power,people are looking at your every subtle gesture.
25:22They're trying to read you.They're trying to stay in your good graces and stay safe.And so weak people move their hands around.And powerful people don't.When we started talking, you were moving around a lot.So I'm thinking, was it hard for you to be as still as Michael iswhen he is exerting his power?Because he knows how to not be still when he needs to,
25:43but he can be very still and very opaque and very threatening at the same time.I know.I don't know how I did that.Yeah, I was wondering.I don't know until this day what possessed me.You literally like don't blink in that scene.I think you blink once.How do you do that?
26:06Well, I was in the situation, as they say, and I guess it came to me, you know,because things like that happenif youstay the coursemeaning if you are withwhoever you are when you're playing itand your instinctsare operating. I guess
26:28I was lucky and I justwent in that direction. I didn't do itconsciously. You were nearlyfired from the movie after theopening sceneand you write in the book that the opening scenewas such a stupid scene for theaddition because Michael is so like not a part of the family. He doesn't really know who he is yet. His future is uncharted and he's naive. So yeah. Judgment was off on picking that scene, I think, because it's a scene of, you know, quasi-exposition. So when you're going through it, what he's supposed to do? He's just describing to his girlfriend, Kay, who later becomes his wife, like who's here and who his family is and who they've held.
27:13I know.All these wonderful people auditioned.I remember them all, all of us, the young actors just doing that scene.And I thought, well, what can they see from that?But somehow I was the lucky one because Francis always wanted me before there was a script.Francis Ford-Cobler, yeah.Yeah, he always wanted me to play Michael.That was in his vision.
27:40And even though it wasn't in mind, I'll tell you that.I thought he might be making a mistake.I thought...You thought he was kidding, and it was maybe a phony phone call.Well, I did think when he called me and told me that he was given the godfather to direct.Because I knew him like a year before that, where I went out to San Francisco to do something with him.And I saw where he worked and the Zoetrope that would Spielberg there and Lucas and all thoseDe Palma and all those 70s filmmakers that were about to explode on the scene.
28:20And I had met them in San Francisco.And he was getting to know me for another role.He was doing in a movie that he wrote Love Story, which never got off the ground.and I went back to New Yorkand I hadn't heard from him in about a yearand then he called meand I said, oh FrancisI spent some time with him
28:44three or four days so I got to know hima little bit and I thought this guy'sgot something very specialand he called meand told me he had the godfatherI thought now he's gone too farI thought what life can do to youyou know now he's fantasizing
29:02things so I saidOkay, I went along with it.But after a while, I started to think, wait a minute,I think Paramount is pretty smart to pick this guybecause this guy knows his stuffand it's an Italian, American,he understands it somewhere.They picked him.
29:25You know, he had won an Oscar alreadyfor the script of Patton, the George C. Scott filmthat was so wonderful.And so he already was starting to establish himself in Hollywood.And then I think maybe he is going to do it.But when he said he wanted me to play Michael,then I thought, I know he's really in a fantasy.So you start with Robert De Niro in Godfather 2,
29:55but you're not in any scenes togetherbecause he's of a different generation from before you were born.And however, you do have scenes together in heat and also in the Irishman.And I want to play a great scene from the Irishman.Sure.Okay.So here's a scene with you and De Niro toward the end of the film.And you've just gotten out of prison.
30:22He plays Frank Sheeran.And Frank Sheeran is somebody who got very connected to the mob.And then he became, you play Jimmy Hoffa.the head of the Teamsters union, he became your bodyguard.So in this scene, you've only recently gotten out of prison.There was a big kind of ceremony in your honor.And then De Niro, as Frank Sheeran comes up to you and explains that,basically that your time's up, that the mob wants you out of the Teamsters,
30:54out of the leadership position that you want to return to.But you're both talking between the lines.You're not coming right out and saying anything.You're talking between the lines.It's a great scene.You ping pong back and forth.So let's hear it.It starts with De Niro.
31:12Tony told the old man to tell me, to tell you, it's what it is.What it is?It's what it is.Please, listen to me.They wouldn't dareThey wouldn't darePlease, Frank, come onDon't say they wouldn't dare
31:38No, don't tell me that kind ofThat's fairy talePlease don't say they wouldn't dareSomething funny happens to meThey're doneYou understand thatAnd they know it because I got filesI got proof
31:54I got records, I got tapesAnytime I wantThey'll be goneSpend the rest of your lives in jailAnd they know itThey know itWhat you're saying is what they're concerned aboutWhat I'm saying is I know things
32:09I know thingsThey don't know I knowPleaseI gotta take that chanceWhat chance am I? Why should I be taking a chance?They're saying this is itThey're saying this is itAnd then it's it
32:22Come on, I'm trying to tell you somethingI know you areYou're telling me they're threatening meAnd I got to do what they sayWhich is that's more of the threatIt's the bottom line.Bottom line.It's what it is.
32:34They do something to me.I do something to them.That's all I know.I don't know anything else to you.You don't get that.De Niro's telling you, they're going to kill you unless you do it.And they do.Al Pacino, speaking to Terry Gross in 2024.
32:52We'll continue their conversation after a break.This is fresh air.I just want to end with one more scene.and it's another very famous sceneand this is from Dog Day Afternoonand it's the Attica sceneso you've been holding up a bankyou've been trying to rob a bank
33:10to get money for your lover'sgender affirmation surgeryyour lover is transgendera transgender woman and wants the surgeryeverything has gone wrong with the bank robberyso now you're holding everybody in the bank hostageand you step outside to make your demandsand the sergeant who's overseeing it
33:35wants you to just make a deal with himand end this siege.So the sergeant is played by Charles Durningand in this scene you get everybody chanting Atticaand that chant wasan idea that was given to you at the last minuteI forget by who.As I was going out this great
33:56assistant directorBert Harris.Brilliant. He's done it all.And he and I made films togetherbecause he was Lametz AD.Very clever.He used to, when I'd come in the morning,he'd do all the things that, you know,
34:20break a hangover.You know, to get me ready to play Superco.He had these bidders and stuff.He understood things.He really worked with so many actors.And anyway, on my way out to once again confront the crowd and the policeand everything going on out there, as I was going out, he said to me,listen, Al, come here, say Attica.
34:45I said, what, say Attica, go.I said, say Antica, so I go out.And I don't know, I know about Attica because it was,in the news, it was a terrible situation that had happened in Attica prison and all that.So I'm thinking it's in my head and I'm going on with the cops.All of a sudden they just blurt it out.I'm saying, Attica, remember Attica?Oh, that just got the crowd, man.
35:14They just went with it.And they start going.And the next thing, you know, everybody's saying, ah.And the cops were all there.And they would say, what the hell is this?What do we do it here?What happened?Yeah, and of course, Attico referred to in this prison in New York, upstate New York.
35:34Well, they went in there and killed prisons.Yeah, the prisoners were demanding more humane conditions in the prison.And they took some of the workers there hostage.And then the police moved in, armed.There was a riot.A lot of people got shot, mostly shot by police.People died.That's right.
35:54And it was just, it was a disaster.And so he starts, so your character starts shouting Attica.And there's a whole crowd of people watching the whole spectacle, you know, and I don't mean watching the movie being made.I mean watching the spectacle of the drama of the hostage crisis in the movie.There's police all around, dozens of police, there's snipers on the rooftop, and you come out of the bank and start talking and the sergeant's trying to make a deal with you.And so when we hear the crowd chanting Attica in response to you chanting Attica,did they know you were going to do that?No, they didn't.
36:33And are we watching that?Go ahead, go ahead.That's what it's so wonderful about films.You can capture it.If you're free, if you're allowed the set to be free, you can capture anything on that camera.As it happens within the structure or the context of the film you're doing and the scene you're playing.You never know what can happen, and it was, you know, it happened.And is that the take that you used?
37:01I don't know. I don't know.D.D. Allen was cutting it.I would imagine it was.I mean, they started doing it again when I went out for other takes, I guess.Yeah.It started a trend outside.I mean, there were hundreds of people who understood what I was saying.they were all part of the
37:24you knowpart of what New York was goingto at the timeI'll just say one more thing about the sceneit is the opposite of Michael Corleonein the Godfatherhe's so likestill and powerful
37:38and coldand you play thisas somebody who's likereally agitated you're pacing back and forthyou have a handkerchief in your handhandkerchief in your hand that keeplike you're waving it back and forthyou're just like one ball
37:52of impulsive, nervousenergy.And so let's hear the sceneand before we play it, I just want to thankyou so much for talking with us.Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for all yourgreat films, all your great performancesand for the book.
38:07Thank you very much. Thank you.Come on, quit while you're ahead.All you got is attempt of robbery.I'm armed then.Nobody's been hurt.Release the hostages.Nobody's going to worry over kidnapping charges.The most you're going to
38:22again is five years you get out in one year huh kiss me what kiss me when i'm beingi'd like to get kissed a lot come on come on come on you're a city cop right robbing thebanks of federal offense they got me on kidnapping arm robbery they're gonna bury me man idon't want to talk to somebody's trying to call me get somebody in charge here i am in chargei don't want to talk to so flunky pig trying to call me you what's he doing and will youget back over there for what's he do what's he do it back there what's he doing look at himGo on. Get over there.Go him back there, man.
38:52Get over there.He wants to kill me so bad.He can taste it.Oh, God, I was going to kill me.Erica!Erika!Erika!Erika!
39:00Erika! Erika!Erika!Erika!Erika!Erika!Hennica!Erika!That was Al Pacino,
39:12inciting the crowd in the most memorable scenefrom the 1975 film Dog Day Afternoon,which is now 50 years old.Al Pacino, who spoke to Terry last year, is now 85 years old.After a break, Mooring Corrigan reviews the new novel The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny by Kieran Desai, which has just been shortlisted for the Booker Prize.This is fresh air.The 2006 novel by Kieran Desai, the Inheritance of Loss, won both the Booker Prize and the National Book Critics Circle Award.Her new novel, The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny, has just been shortlisted for the Booker Prize.
39:50our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, has a review.It took Kieran Desai nearly 20 years to write her new novel,The Loneliness of Sonia and Sonny.I mean this as a sincere tribute.When I say I'm amazed, it only took her that long.Desai's near 700-page novel is about exile and displacement,not only from one's home country, family, and culture,but also from one's own sense of self.
40:20The multi-character, multi-stranded plot roams from locales in India and the U.S.Delhi, Goa, Vermont, Brooklyn, with side trips to Italy and Mexico.This is a novel of ideas, as well as, at its most elemental, a tangled love story.Desai's characters inhabit a complex, post-modern, post-colonial world.And yet her own sensibility as a novel,is playfully old-fashioned.Consider the contrivanceDesai brazenly concocks
40:57to enable a central moment of this story,a chance meeting on an overnight trainbetween the two title charactersafter they've each rejectedtheir own family's formal attemptsto arrange a marriage between them.Dickens himself might have blushed.There are plenty of complications
41:19however, before and after that fateful moment.When the novel opens in the late 1990s,Sonia is a depressed college student in Vermont,who hasn't been back to India in two years.Her grandparents, her lifeline back home, are baffled.Here's a sampling of a phone conversationa tearful Sonia has with her grandfather.What are you crying for, you lucky girl?
41:49girl. Sonia tried to explain. I've ballooned in my own head. I cannot stop thinking about myself and myproblems. I'm dreading the winter. In the dark and cold, it will get worse. Do some jumping jacks.Get your spirits up and then pick up your books. The miscommunication there is generational,cultural, and temperamental. Tragically, it makes the isolated Sonia right.for the picking by a visiting art monster, a painter named Ilan. Early in their affair,Ilan boasts to the impressionable Sonia, maybe I will paint a picture that the whole world willknow and you'll become angry and feel you don't exist outside the painting. And he does just that,appropriating her body and an intimate moment of shame in his art for all to see.
42:49Just as damaging is Ilan's theft of a treasured amulet that Sonia inherited from her German grandfather.Without that amulet depicting a demon protector, Sonia feels bereft.But what of Sonny, our other protagonist here?He too has left India for the U.S., where we first meet him working for the Associated Press.A prime motivation for Sonny's move was his domineering.mother, Babita, were told Sonny had thought he would be able to love her better from New York.Instead, Sonny finds himself editing his life for his mother. For instance, hiding the existenceof his live-in girlfriend, a Nordic Midwesterner named Ulla. In one of the many black comedy
43:43set pieces in this novel, Ulla takes Sunny home to Kansas to meet her folks.Here are some snippets from that visit, mostly seen from Ula's anxious perspective.Ulla didn't want Sonny to find her father's consumer reports in the basket by his reclining chair.She didn't want her father to tell Sonny he'd found an excellent deal on his own tombstone.Ulla had told Sonny he was not to say anything complimentary about socialism or JimmyCarter or even Bill Clinton. Ula, vigilant to both sides, saw that Sunny was not able to performto his eccentric self, that her parents' body humor was oppressed. They passed the beans andthe cornbread. The tick-tock asserted itself, while her mother wondered whether if it was safe
44:43to say she had enjoyed the movie Gandhi. Maybe enjoyed was not the word. What hope is there for us tounderstand each other, let alone ourselves, when so much of human interaction is performance?Sonia, a writer, considers that question as it applies to art, recognizing the danger of packagingand exotic India in her writing for the enticement of white people.Would the dilemma vanish, Sonia wonders,if the abundance of stories grew as abundant as life itself?In the loneliness of Sonia and Sonny,Desai has come close to achieving that ideal.
45:31This is a spectacular novel,nearly as abundant as life itself,to savor, ruminate over,and yes, even reread.Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University.She reviewed The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny by Kieran Desai.On Monday's show, U.S. Poet Laureate Ada Limon discusses startlement, new and selected poems,a collection spanning nearly two decades.
46:02Limon's poetry documents everything from close observations of horses and kingfishers to the cosmos.One of her poems is engraved on NASA's Europa Clipperbound for Jupiter's moon.I hope you can join us.Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.Sam Brigger is our managing producer.Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorak.Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham
46:30with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman,Julian Hertzfeld, and Deanna Martinez.Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldenado, Lauren Crenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaliner, Susan Yacundi, and Anna Bauman.Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nisper. Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer.For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David B. Incouli.Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood JohnsonFoundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longera privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org.