Fresh Air - Best Of: Barbra Streisand / Tariq Trotter (Black Thought)

Episode Date: November 11, 2023

Throughout her career, Barbra Streisand's mother would send her bad reviews of her performances. The intention was to prevent her daughter from getting a "swelled head," but they also served as fuel for a woman who was determined to be a star. The EGOT-winning icon spoke with Terry Gross about her career and her memoir, My Name is Barbra.Co-founder of The Roots, Tariq Trotter (aka Black Thought), reflects on his difficult childhood in Philly, his decades-long friendship with Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson, and 50 years of hip-hop. Trotter's new memoir is The Upcycled Self.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Barbara Streisand. In her new memoir, she writes about everything, from growing up with a mother who constantly criticized her, to her love life and her extensive career. Also, we'll hear from Tariq Trotter, co-founder and lead emcee for The Roots. He's best known by a stage name, Black Thought, and for always wearing his signature sunglasses.

I think it's just, you know, it's a line of defense. It's one more, you know, even if it's a super thin veil, it's a veil of separation between the world and me. Trotter was just seven years old when he got his first job at an optician's office. When he was a teen, he experienced one of the biggest tragedies of his life, the murder of his mother. And it was his friend and creative partner, Amir Questlove Thompson, that took him in. Together, they co-founded The Roots.

This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Terry has the first interview. I'll let her introduce it. Before the Broadway musical Funny Girl turned my guest Barbara Streisand into a star,

she was getting a lot of attention in 1962 for her nightclub act and for her show-stopping comedic number in the then-new Broadway musical I Can Get It For You Wholesale. That led to her being booked on The Gary Moore Show, which at the time was a popular TV variety show. Here's how she was introduced by Gary Moore Show, which at the time was a popular TV variety show. Here's how she was introduced by Gary Moore in 1962. You know, one of the biggest thrills for a guy who's been around this business as long as I have is the advent of a bright new young star. Several weeks ago, a very talented 19-year-old newcomer named Barbara Streisand did a comedy song in the Broadway musical, I Can Get It For You Wholesale,

and she stopped the show cold. Also, in addition to that, she appears nightly at the Bon Soir and kills the people there. But I was delighted to learn during rehearsals this week that she is equally effective in straight numbers

as she is when she's being zany. Here, then, is Miss Barbara Streisand. After that introduction, Streisand performed what became one of her signature songs. Let us sing a song of cheer again Happy days are here again Barbara Streisand has a new memoir called My Name is Barbara. Her career got off to a rocketing start.

In 1964, she won two Grammys for her first album, the Barbra Streisand album. She was nominated for Tonys for her two Broadway shows. Her first Oscar was for the film adaptation of Funny Girl. She became one of the best-selling recording artists of all time. In 1983, when Yentl was released, she became the first woman to write, produce, direct, and star in a major studio film. A new 40th anniversary release of the Yentl soundtrack includes two discs. The second is largely devoted to demo recordings featuring Streisand. She recorded her end of our interview from her home. Barbara Streisand, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Congratulations on the book. It is an honor to have you back on the show. Thank you so much, Terry. Thank you. Your memoir starts with how early articles about you focused on your nose. Why did you want to start with your nose? It's a 900-page book. Why start with your nose?

Well, what would you have started with? I don't know. I didn't write the book. That's what I mean. I had to get their attention, you know, and it was also true. I mean, the articles about me that I remember, you know, I had a researcher that researched me because I never kept a scrapbook even. And right away, I didn't like being interviewed and being asked certain questions. But even if the interview went well, I noticed that they printed something that was not nice. So what was that about?

I never quite understood it. The negativity, you know, like the picking on my nose wasn't that big ever. I didn't understand. I wasn't Jimmy Durante, you know? Yeah, yeah. When you said picking on your nose, I was going to say instead of picking your nose, I'm sorry. Picking on my nose, though, yeah. You initially, well, you decided you weren't going to get it fixed, in part because you were worried it would affect your voice, and for good reason, probably. Well, yeah, my first instinct

was that I liked my bump, and people would say, oh, you know, you should have your bump removed or something. Why would I remove my bump? And I just had a problem with the tip of my nose, but I wasn't faithful that any doctor would do something so tiny, you know. I probably wouldn't like it. The third thing I thought about was, way later, was, oh, it might affect my voice. My nasal quality, you know, seeming was light, so why would I change it? And I don't like pain.

I mean, I've seen people with the bandages on their nose, and sometimes they're not happy and sometimes they take too much off and you can't put it back. I don't know. I just didn't want to take a chance. And it was expensive, remember? When I was growing up, expensive. We didn't have the money to do anything like that. But, you know, it just, no, I decided I'll try to just make it on my own and make it about who I was, really. Early on, when you were starting out, you performed at the Bonsoir, which you describe as a sophisticated nightclub in Greenwich Village. And there's a, you did a live recording

from the club that was never released in 1962 when it was recorded, but it was released last year in a remastered version. So to talk about your early career, very early career, I want to play a track from that. And I thought we'd hear Keepin' Out of Mischief now because it's quite delightful. So here it is, Barbra Streisand, live in 1962. Thank you. Keeping out of mischief now Really I'm in love and how

I'm through playing with fire It's you whom I desire All the world can plainly see You're the only one for me I have told them in advance

They can break up our romance Living up to all my vows. Cause I'm keeping out of mischief now. Out of mischief now. I'm in love and heart. That was Barbra Streisand recorded in 1962 at the Club du Bonsoir.

You wanted to be a dramatic actor at first. Why did you think of singing as secondary to drama? Because I wanted to be on the stage and play, you know, Juliet and A Doll's House, whatever, you know, Ibsen, Chekhov, Shakespeare. And to sing to me in a nightclub was not what I imagined my career to be. Because I knew I had a pretty good voice, and I was living with a man who had a great record collection. And he said, there's a club across the street. It was a little club called The Lion. And that person, the head of that, the manager of that club, took me over to the Bonsoir to audition.

And that's how I got a job. It was a wonderful job. And I met Phyllis Diller. You know, we shared a tiny little dressing room together. She was great. She was a great friend to me. How did you realize you should try Broadway musicals? So you wanted to be a dramatic actor, then you started singing at a club, and then, of course, you started auditioning. I went to acting classes where I could play the roles I wanted to play. My first acting class when I was 14, taking the train from Brooklyn to Manhattan, and I tried out for the actor's studio when I was 15. So when I didn't get jobs, I decided I had to make a living somehow.

I went to that talent contest and won. And that's how I became a singer. So you kept auditioning, and you got a part in I Can Get It For You Wholesale, which was a musical comedy on Broadway. I had a wonderful serendipitous, is that such a thing, a word, serendipitous, yeah. I had a wonderful agent who saw me in Another Evening with Harry Stoons,

a little off-Broadway play that, just a minute, that lasted nine previews and one performance. But he saw me in that. And he sent, he's the one who sent me up for I Can Get a Few Wholesale, that first Broadway play. Now, you know, it didn't matter to me if I lost roles because I really wanted to be an actress. I mean, that's when I came in and said, you know, it didn't matter to me if I lost roles because I really wanted to be an actress. I mean, that's when I came in and said, you know,

when I had to sing the, they gave me the sheet music for Miss Marmelstein because she was originally written to be an older woman. And they changed it for me. I was only 19 years old. And that's the story I tell, coming back and saying, I'd like to do the song in a chair. Yeah, she's a secretary, so you want her to be in like a secretarial chair on wheels. Yeah, but they didn't have a secretarial chair. But my vision of it was that I would sing the song in a secretarial chair. So again, you know, it's logic.

It's like I got the job, and then when we started rehearsal, they said, now we're going to stage it. What do you mean? Didn't you like my idea of singing it in a secretarial chair? Well, it was okay, but now we're going to go to work and do a conceptual staging with lots of people in the office and so forth. Yeah, well, what happened to the chairs? You kept persisting like this is how it should be, and you won. That's the point. The point is I always had these visions of the way things should be. But I also believed in trying to do to the best of my ability what the director wanted.

I mean, I really tried to make it work for myself, but it just felt so awkward, so not right. Because you were just like, what, standing around while other people were on stage too? You were just standing and singing? Yeah, it just didn't feel right. And finally, right before we went to Philadelphia, I think that was first, Philadelphia and then Boston. Philadelphia, you know, they said, he said, do it in your goddamn chair. And it stopped the show. I almost felt guilty, but I was happy that it worked.

Why don't we hear it? So this is Miss Marmelstein from 1962 cast recording of I Can Get It For You, Joseo, featuring my guest, Barbara Streisand, who has a brand new memoir. Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein!

Miss Marmelstein! Miss Marmelstein! Oh, why is it always Miss Marmelstein? Miss Marmelstein. Miss Marmelstein. Oh, why is it always Miss Marmelstein? Miss Marmelstein. Miss Marmelstein. Miss Marmelstein. Miss Marmelstein. Miss Marmelstein.

All the girls get called by their first names right away. They get cozy and to me. Do you know what I mean? Nobody calls me, me hey baby doll. Miss Marmelstein. Or honey dear. Miss Marmelstein. Or sweetie pie.

Miss Marmelstein. Even my first name would be preferable. Though it's terrible. It might be better. It's yetta. Or perhaps my second name, that's Tessie. Spelled T-E-S-S-Y-E. But no, no, it's always Ms. Marmelstein.

Ms. Marmelstein. You think at least Ms. M they could try. Ms. Marmelstein. Ms. Marmelstein. Ms. Marmelstein. Ms. Marmelstein. Ms. Marmelstein. Miss Marmos tea. Miss Marmos tea. Miss Marmos tea. Miss Marmos tea. Oh, I could die.

That's Barbra Streisand in the 1962 original cast recording of I Can Get It For You Wholesale. That is just delightful. Well, it worked. I was happy about that. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, you wanted to do dramatic acting. And so, like, your big breakthrough is in a musical comedy. But you were already doing comedic songs.

I didn't get the jobs of the straight shows. Yeah, why do you think that is? I mean, when you wanted to be a dramatic actress, what kind of roles did you think you'd get? Because when you were young and going to movies to escape being home, basically, you thought to yourself, the girls on screen don't look like me. And they probably didn't, you know. No, they didn't. They didn't. I mean, the stars anyway. Yeah. So what were you expecting to get initially? Wow. I just somehow always saw my future. I can't explain that to you.

Maybe it was my mother's negativity. I don't know if it was like, I'll prove you wrong, because she kept telling me to get a job as a secretary. Well, you got to play a singer, yeah. Yeah, she had a beautiful voice, my mother. We're listening to Terry's conversation with Barbara Streisand. Her new memoir is called My Name is Barbara. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Barbara Streisand. She has a new memoir called My Name is Barbara.

You created some of your insecurities to your mother who was always criticizing you. And I want you to name some of her more memorable and cutting criticisms. I'll start with my favorite of the ones that you mentioned in the book, is that she used to send you bad reviews. And when you say, why are you sending this to me? She'd say, you need to know about this. Don't get a swelled head. That's pretty destructive considering how sensitive you are about some things. So what are some of your most memorable criticisms from out of you? Well, when I first allowed her to, she came the second night when I was at the Bonsoir.

My mother, the first thing she said, I remember, was your voice needs eggs. You have to use a guggle muggle because your voice needs to be stronger. What's a guggle muggle? A guggle muggle. A guggle muggle was she made hot kind of chocolate and put a raw egg in it, which I could never swallow. My mother came twice, once to see me as a singer and once to see me as an actress. When I came off the stage as an actress in my acting class, we put on a little show, her comment was, your arms are too skinny. So your mother was very critical of you. Your father died when you were 15 months

old, so you never really got to know him. Your stepfather, you describe as not physically abusive, but emotionally abusive. What did he... He never saw me. He never talked to me. Literally, I can say to you, I don't remember a sentence or even a word hello. It was like I wasn't seen. It's like I vanished in front of him. He would not talk to me. So I think my early upbringing did affect my wanting to be famous in some way or an actor, you know, because I wasn't seen. What a way to be seen. You become an actress, I guess, you know. You become a movie star. Yeah.

Right. Let's talk about music. So you are very brave. You a couple of he was in love with her. And then by the time she's in love with him, he's kind of married. So he's no longer available. And, you know, years pass. So anyways, in the song, you thought that since it wasn't done in the context of the show, that people wouldn't get what the lyrics were really about. Exactly.

So you asked Sondheim to add another, a second bridge. A second bridge to kind of explain what was happening. How did you have the nerve to ask Sondheim to write something for you? You know what? Because I knew him. He had a strange mother like I did who didn't believe in him. Right, right. And therefore, I could talk truth to him. I know who he is. And I know that he's always, like me in a sense, looking for something even better than what you did before. You know what I mean? I mean, there are certain people who would never change a lyric.

So what'd you think of the bridge that he wrote for you? Loved it. Yeah, it's good. It's good. Loved it. Loved it. I didn't even know because I don't remember seeing that show. Or if I did, maybe I left that intermission. But I don't remember. I didn't remember the story. And then when he told me, when I called him, he says, you know, you're saying something that really happened on stage.

There was time. And you're asking me to write something else that's really filling that time for a record. And he said, so I was really glad to do it. You know, it's just amazing how, you know, another time I asked him about another, I was reading the sheet music, which I can't read. Hold that thought, because before we change the subject, I want to play it. So we're going to be hearing a little more than just the part that Sondheim wrote for you. So I want to point out to our listeners which is that part, in case they're not that familiar with the lyrics.

So it's the part that he wrote for you is the part that starts, What a surprise, who could foresee? I'd come to feel about you what you felt about me. So it's those two lines plus two other lines. Okay, so here we go. that you'd want what I want. Sorry, my dear. But where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Quick, send in the clowns, quicksand in the clouds.

What a surprise, who could foresee? I come to feel about you what you felt about me. Why only now when I see that you've drifted away What a surprise What a cliche

What a That's Barbara Streisand What a cliche. That's Barbara Streisand with An Extra Bridge, written for her at her request by Stephen Sondheim. Thank you for enduring the ordeal of being interviewed. Well, thank you, Terry. This is 10 years we're talking about. That you wrote the book. More than 10 years that I talked to you. Oh, since you've been on the show. Yes. Well, it's time to let you go and to let your dog growl in peace.

Yeah, I'm going to go have a treat for my doggies now, too. Barbara Streisand's new memoir is called My Name is Barbara. She spoke with Terry Gross. Our next guest is Tariq Trotter, better known as Black Thought. His life, as he remembers it, starts with a fire. He was six years old, deep in play with his army men, those popular plastic figurines from the 70s, when he decided to flick a lighter to add drama to the war scene. When the tip of the lighter got too hot for Tariq's little fingers, he reactively tossed it, the curtains and carpet erupting in flames before engulfing the entire house. In Trotter's new book, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are,

the Grammy Award-winning rapper and co-founder of the hip-hop group The Roots examines the shame of that moment, as well as other harrowing events growing up in Philadelphia, intertwined with joyful moments like discovering music and meeting his fellow bandmate Amir Questlove Thompson. Known by his stage name, Black Thought, Trotter is the lead MC of The Roots, which he and Thompson founded after meeting his teens in high school. Here's one of their first hits from the album Things Fall Apart, You Got Me, featuring know that you got me. If you were worried about where I've been or who I saw, what club I went to with my own biz, baby, don't worry, you know that you got me. Somebody told me that this planet was small. We used to live in the same building on the same floor.

And never met before until I'm overseas on tour. And peep this Ethiopian queen from Philly taking classes abroad. She's studying film and photo flash focus record. Says she working on a flick and cut my click through the score. She says she loved my show in Paris at Alice Momar. And that I stepped off the stage and took a piece of her heart. We knew from the start that things fall apart and tend to shatter. She like that it's no matter when I get home, get out of through letter phone.

Whatever, let's link, let's get together. Did you think not? Think the thought went home or forgot? Time passed, we back in Philly, now she up in my spot. Telling me the things I'm telling her is making her hot. Started building with her constantly round the clock. Now she in my world like hip hop and keep telling me. The Roots serve as the house band on NBC's The Tonight Show, starring Jimmy Fallon. And in addition to his music, Trotter is also a theater actor and writer,

having co-written the music and performed in the off-Broadway play Black No More. Tariq Trotter, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. Thank you so much, Tanya. Thanks for having me. This memoir is about you going back through your life to understand who you are. And that fire that you accidentally started at six years old, you write that it became the basis of all that you are. But to say that it changed you isn't quite right. It actually shaped the person that you are. What did it shape you into? I think, you know, the fire and that whole experience at such a young age, it changed me in that it jump-started.

It was the beginning of me having to grow up, you know, fast. Yeah, and, you know, when I go back in my life and I trace through those watershed moments. And I think as a kid, I mean, I was six years old. So there was no way at six for me to really understand the gravity, you know what I mean, of it all. And how that's the sort of thing that could carry through life, you know? At the time you were living with your mother and your half-brother in a house that your mom had done this amazing job making a home in North Philadelphia, she did not blame you or scold you, but it was clear that it had changed your family's life.

There was very much a before the fire and an after the fire for your family. How, in those immediate days and weeks and really years, did things change for you all? It really destabilized you. Yeah, it definitely, it was the beginning of just a more unstable period in our lives. One of the things that, a revelation that occurred post-fire, like right after the fire, was just the fact that I didn't get in trouble. There was no doubt in my mind that I was going to get it. You know what I mean? I knew that I had really done it this time, and I expecting you know some if not multiple uh manners of

punishment right and um you know there wasn't really a reprimand like you know my mom i mean obviously now as an adult and as a parent you completely understand that uh the only concern would be uh for your your kid's safety but in that moment i felt felt like, wow, you know, she's, she's letting me slide with this one. But, you know, I think I came to, like, the revelation was the amount of grace, you know what I'm saying? That my, that my mother was able to show in those moments, right? You know, that, that felt as if such a display would, would be impossible. You talk about how much you had to grow up after that fire. You got your first job at seven years old? Yeah, yeah, I did.

Seven years old, I was working at an eyeglass for an optician because I started wearing glasses at around the age of six or so. And this place, this optician was along the route, my route to and from school, which often I would be traveling alone or with another young five or six-year-old kid. It really speaks to the time because— It really does. It does. Because we would just be out there. Back in the day, your parents would go to work and just, you know, go cold out. But yeah, anyway, this guy, this optician, where I would often stop to ask him if he could repair my glasses before I got home from school.

I think he just, you know, sort of felt the vibe. He like, he read the room of sorts and was, you know, he realized that I was a latchkey kid who was often, you know, headed home from school to an empty house. And he provided, you know, an alternative in saying, hey, would you accept these responsibilities and would it be okay if I talk to your mom and, you know, figure something out? And he spoke with my mom and she was with it. I had a job. My guest is Tariq Trotter, also known as Black Thought, the co-founder of the rap group The Roots. He's written a new memoir titled The Upcycled Self.

We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. This is Fresh Air Weekend. Let's get back to my interview with Grammy Award-winning rapper and performer Black Thought, also known as Tariq Trotter, about his new memoir, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are. Trotter is the lead emcee of The Roots, which he and Amir Questlove Thompson founded after meeting as teens in high school. The group has won three Grammy Awards and is known as one of the top rap groups of all time. The Roots also serves as the house band on NBC's The Tonight Show starring Jimmy Fallon. In addition to his music, Trotter is also a theater actor and writer,

performing in the 2022 off-Broadway play Black No More. You write about these times so vividly, and you also write about some heavy things that allow us to understand and see you more clearly, in addition to the fire that forever changed you, you also lost both of your parents at a very young age. Your father was murdered when you were a baby, and your mother was murdered when you were a teenager in a very brutal way.

I'm guessing for a very long time, you did not lead with this part of your life. Did people in the entertainment circles and around you know these things about you? I mean, you know, my closest friends definitely, you know, know about my history and, you know, what my life has sort of been like. But no, I think I'm guarded in that way. I'm such a private person that it's almost as if you weren't there at the time, there's no way that you, you know, you'd have any idea. I've never worn my lived experience as that sort of badge, you know, or on my sleeve in that way.

You didn't find out right away that your mother had been murdered. You had been living in Detroit and with relatives. You were a teenager and you'd come back to Philly and you couldn't find her. And so you went out to search for her. And one of the places you went to after calling and driving around was the morgue know, I was growing up in Philadelphia. I mean, you know, just in the middle of the 80s crack epidemic and then, you know, immediately after, you know, just the crack epidemic and everything that took place. Yeah, you know, we had normalized lots of trauma and lots of, you know, things that, you know, we had gotten used to seeing and experiencing every day. You know, it just

wasn't necessarily okay and wasn't necessarily normal. And, you know, one of the normal things for us was that, you know, that's what you do if, you know, someone doesn't show back up home at the end of the night or the next morning or you're trying to track somebody down. First, you know, someone doesn't show back up home at the end of the night or the next morning or you're trying to track somebody down, first you check the hospitals, you know, see if, you know, maybe they've gotten hurt and wound up in the hospital. Then you check, you know, the jails, see if they have been arrested, and then you check the morgues. And we, in that order, that's what we always did. And that was a process. And then my mother, you know, she would always turn up after a couple of days. And this particular time, I think it was something that we all felt, you know, just an eerie feeling. It felt different. And once we had found out that there

was a Jane Doe that had turned up like an unidentified or unidentifiable body, I think we all knew that or felt that that was my mother. And then my grandmother and her sister went and they confirmed at the morgue. When you found out your mother was killed, you were in high school and you had this good friend, Amir Questlove Thompson. What did that friendship mean to you through that time period? Through that time period, you know, Amir and my friendship was huge. It was an anchor for me, you know, the ways in which he and his family were there for me. They really had taken me in. The dynamic was already one in which I would spend days, weeks at a time at his place and vice versa.

You know, we were inseparable in that way as creatives. But the fact that I was able to pour myself completely into my art and that the music was there for me when I needed it to be and just that Amir and his family was there for me, it was huge. It was just the perfect safety net to sort of keep me on the right trajectory because I was very much at a crossroads and I could have processed that trauma and the experience and the loss in a different way and just been at a very different place today. The Roots was also one of the first rap groups to play live music. There are so many elements of jazz.

Was it hard for you guys in the beginning? Did record companies know what to do with you? Yeah, no, record companies had no idea what to do with The Roots. So, yeah, we looked different. We sounded different. I spoke and performed differently. Both Malik and I, the other emcee, rest in peace malik be the other mc in the roots um you know spoke differently than um you know folks did uh from places that were you know trending

more um in the culture like you know there was a specific way that rappers in the west coast or from the south or even from New York, you know, said things. And from Philly, we just, we sounded different. There was no, there wasn't, Philly wasn't the incubator for us that it's been for some other artists at different points in time. When I look at you guys, I mean, you're not just a band. You're like a collective. Absolutely, We are. Yeah. I mean, so in any given iteration, they're almost like a dozen members. But there's also all of these other connective tissues around Philadelphia of other artists that you all basically set that foundation, that culture that we know of like this Philly sound of neo-soul hip-hop. Again, rest in peace, Rich Nichols at Rich's Place. And we wound up just to give the feminine a place to showcase and perform.

And from that, the Black Lily was born. And that's really the beginning of the Black Lily. It ushered in an era. Can you describe a Black Lily? Yeah, what. Yeah. Well, you know, a black lily was the answer to the initial, like the original roots jam session where it's lots of improv. It's almost all, you know, think of like an upright citizens brigade or something for, you know, but that is for the comedian, right, for the sketch

comedian having to, you know, just to learn to improvise and create and entertain on the spot. That's what the Black Lily was. It was an incubator for artists like the Jill Scots and kindred family souls and music soul childs and beliles of the world. Your rap cadence, it's always been instrumental, if that makes sense. MCs before you, they had maybe like a louder bombastic kind of projection, and you're much more melodic. How did you come into your style? Did you ever emulate some of those earlier guys?

You talked about Cool Moe D when you were really young. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I've definitely emulated, you know, all the greats. You know, if we're talking cadence, then it began with, you know, Melly Mel, right? And the way that, you know, the Melly Mels of the world sort of spoke. There was a cadence that was, it was almost, you know, like your uncle at the barbecue, right? You know, really accessible, easy to follow along. But even in that, you know, Melly Mel was the first artist to, um, you know, he

rapped, his cadence was very different from like, say, okay, we begin with the Sugar Hill gang, right? The way that, you know, the hip, the hop, the hippa to the hippa, the hip, hip, the hop. You almost got a smile to rap in that cadence, right? And Melly Mel came out and he was, you know, talking about the Bronx and rapping about what was, you know, really going on, um, on songs like, you know, really going on on songs like, you know, The Message. And he was emphatic in his expression.

You know what I mean? Broken glass everywhere. And you could, it was visual. You know what I mean? The way that the emphasis he put on his words made it possible for you to see what he was talking about. And then you had the, you know, Run-DMC and those guys came along, right? You know, through, I guess the connective tissue would be Curtis Blow, right? Who was, you know, the first sex symbol solo rap star.

But, you know, again, he didn't rap in the way that, you know, the Melly Mells or the Sugarhill Gang did. And he introduced us to Run as his DJ, DJ Run. And then when Run-DMC came out, they were almost the antithesis to everything that was happening on the scene before them. I feel like that's what Def Jam and, you know, the people who were associated with Def Jam and Russell Simmons

and Rick Rubin at that time, they all were yelling and screaming. They came out and it was like, we're not going to rap the way these other guys rap. Like it was Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, you know, even, you know, Tila Rock, LL Cool J, Run DMC.

They weren't Def Jam artists, but they were part of that movement. And then you had artists like, you know, Rakim and Big Daddy Kane and Cool G Rap who came out. And for them, it was more, it was about more nuance. And in particular, I think that's, you know, it goes for Rakim, who, you know, many of us like Taluk Wali, Yassin Bey, Nas, myself. There's a long list of us who sort of trace it back to, you know, to him, you know what I mean? Yeah, to the influence of Rakim. He was one of the first emcees who said, I know everyone else is screaming and yelling to get their points across. Everyone else is going to be super emphatic. I'm going to articulate my instrument as such.

I'm going to use my voice like an instrument. And, you know, he had a jazz background. I think Rakim grew up playing trumpet or sax, and his brother also was a jazz musician, his older brother. And he approached his cadence and his storytelling and his songwriting from that perspective. And I think that was some of the earliest signs of that. And that's what, you know, it's a tool that I still employ today.

Well, to give an example of your instrument, how you use it, I want to play one of your more recent songs, which is a personal track about your life and family. And it is called Fuel. Let's listen to a little bit. Portrait painted by Ernie Barnes Clean sneakers and dirty horns Last soldier of 30 gone Who lost hope but still journeyed on Yet I'm the reason we gon' have to get the gurney form Karma police carrying customized cuffs for me I hope these taped up guns are still bust for me I had the whole world, it wasn't enough for me

It got me feeling like the Lord lost trust for me I made a means to an end when there were no wins. I burned bridges. I swore to be eternal friends. The last ones I ever intended to turn against until we grew our separate ways like fraternal twins. So to the chosen few with whom I need to reconcile, my mother's mother, my only brother, my second child.

I've always loved you, although that was rarely said aloud. So take forever. I guess better late than never proud. That was Fuel by Black Thought, released in 2020. And this song, this goes back to what we're talking about, about you, through your art, expressing what has happened in your life. It's about intergenerational trauma, reconciling the past and building a future. What's your writing process? Are you putting your rhymes to paper from the start or does it just start with an idea and a freestyle? You know, the process is different from song to song.

I'm constantly jotting down ideas, a word here, you know, a couplet there. But, yeah, for the most part, you know, the writing process is, yeah, you know, I sit down and I try and think of, you know, just different ways to either add on to or to, you know, continue to articulate just my origin story you know sometimes I'll get I'll hear a bit of music and I'll sit with the music for

days, weeks, months at a time before some lyrics will come, write a song or eventually write itself after the 20, 30 40th time that I've decided to sit and listen to this idea. And then other times, you know, I'll get 32, 40, you know, 50 bars will just come without any sort of musical inspiration. Then I have to find, you know, a fitting composition, you know,

the best place for these words to sort of live. So, yeah, I'm just pulling my ideas out of the ether, you know, and I try and just remain dialed in, tapped in, attentive, alert, aware, conscious enough to, you know, to receive that inspiration and to recognize it when it comes. Because it's all around you. Everything is a song, right? You know, so it's just about, you know, recognizing the gold. Your kids are living a very different life than you lived as a young person in Philadelphia.

And that's a positive thing. I mean, you write about it in your book. Do they know about your story and the different parts of you? And how has it felt, if so, to be able to share those things with them? My kids don't really know. I don't think they know about my story as much as they could or should. But again, I haven't really impressed it upon them either, right? You know, because it's not the sort of thing that I've worn on my sleeve. They just, I mean, I don't know. You know, I guess the ways in which we protect our kids, sometimes we withhold information.

And I talk about this in the book, about how I'm still, you know, trying to figure out information, receiving information about exactly what, you know, what exactly happened in the case of my father's murder. Right. So I think they're going to continue to, you know, to hear sort of, again, about the pieces of the puzzle that, you know, make me. And I think over time they'll get into it. I think they'll appreciate the fact that, yeah, I was able to tell this story, you know, but probably further down the line. You know, right now my kids, they feel oblivious to a lot of what's going on,

a lot of what's happened in my life and a lot of, you know, what's happened in the world. And I think there is a, you know, there's a certain level of privilege and, you know, associated with that, with that, the bliss of that ignorance, you know what I mean? And sometimes I find myself, you know, just wishing they had it, just a tougher way to go, you know? Do you feel good though, that you've been able to provide them with that privilege? I definitely feel good that you've been able to provide them with that privilege I definitely feel good that I've been able to provide them with that privilege um you know in in many ways you know what I'm saying because uh I never you know as as a kid yeah I didn't know what I was gonna wind up doing or how long I was going to even, you know, live.

Right. That's the sad truth. Lots of us didn't think we couldn't see ourselves making it past 25 or 30 just because we didn't know that many people who had, you know, and then the people, you know, it was almost as if a generation had been skipped because I knew people who were my grandparents' age and I had friends and classmates who were my age, but, you know, the drug epidemic in the 80s took a whole generation of people out of here. So it was like, you know, oh, well, you see yourself at 30. And I would say, who's 30? Who made, I don't know, who's, who made it to 30? You know what I mean? Tariq Trotter, thank you so much for this conversation. Oh, no, thank you, Taya. This has been a great conversation. And yeah, I'm excited.

I can't wait to hear this. Tariq Trotter, a.k.a. Black Thought, on his new book, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. For Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Moseley.