Fresh Air - Best Of: Ben Stiller / Cynthia Erivo

Episode Date: November 22, 2025

Ben Stiller talks about his new Apple TV+ documentary about his actor/comedian parents Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara. In the ‘60s and ‘70s, they were famous as the comedy duo, Stiller and Meara. Ben talks about growing up in a showbiz family, where there was no separation between work and personal lives. Also, we hear from Cynthia Erivo. She stars in ‘Wicked: For Good,’ reprising her role as Elphaba. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Our common nature is a musical journey with Yo-Yo Ma and me, Anna Gonzalez, through this complicated country. We go into caves, onto boats, and up mountain trails to meet people, hear their stories, and of course, play some music, all to reconnect to nature. Listen to Our Common Nature from WNYC, wherever you get podcasts. From WHYYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry Gross with F. Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Ben Stiller on his new documentary about his parents and being raised by them. Ben's father, Jerry Stiller, co-starred on Seinfeld as Frank Costanza, Georgia's father. Ben's mother, Anne Mira, was an actress. In the 60s and 70s, they were famous as the comedy duo, Stiller and Mira. When Ben's parents were on the road, he sometimes went rogue, like going

to Studio 54 with his older sister when he was 13. He got past the back. Bouncer, dressed appropriately. They put me in a yellow and green polka-dotted Fiorucci shirt and an army jacket and these Mickey Mouse sunglasses. Also, we hear from Cynthia Arrivo. She stars on the new film, Wicked for Good. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This message comes from Wise, the app for using money around the globe. When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees.

Join millions of customers and visit Wise.com. T's and C's Apply. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Ben Stiller, has made a very personal documentary about his parents and what it was like to be their son. Ben's father, Jerry Stiller, co-starred on Seinfeld playing Frank Costanza, George's father. Ben's mother and Mira was an actress. Together, Ben's parents were known as the comedy duo, Stiller, and Mara. They were so popular in the 60s and 70s that were on the Ed Sullivan show more than 30 times. Sometimes Ben went with them to their appearances on TV talk shows and in nightclubs. In 2020, five years after Mira's death, Jerry Stiller died.

While Ben was going through his father's possessions, he was stunned to discover, stashed away, many cassette and real-to-reel real audio recordings Jerry Stiller had made. They documented his life and his relationship with Anne, including recordings of conversations with Anne in which they had disagreements about their marriage and their act. Some of those conversations are included in the documentary, along with video clips of their sketches from their TV appearances. The documentary, Stiller and Mara, Nothing is Lost, is streaming on Apple TV.

Ben Stiller has been famous for years as an actor, starring in such films as Zoolander, Meet the Parents, Night at the Museum, and their sequels, as well as Dodge Ball, Tropic Thunder, and the Royal Tenenbaum's. In the last few years, he's been doing more and more directing and producing. Now he's the executive producer and primary director of the popular Emmy Award-winning Apple TV series Severance. Let's start with a clip from the new documentary, Stiller and Mira, No. nothing is lost. This is an excerpt of one of the audio recordings of Ben's parents, rehearsing a sketch about how the couple they're portraying hate each other, not realizing that Ben's sister, who is then a child, is overhearing them, thinking the argument is real. At the end of this recording, we'll hear Ben and his sister Amy

looking back at that time. We have a sketch which we call hate. The heat of your hot hate. You know, I say to Anne, I hate you. She says, you hate me, I hate you. and one day Amy, who's six, came into the room and she heard us saying this to each other and we looked at her for a moment and we didn't know what to say so we said, Amy, mommy daddy rehearse. Mommy daddy rehearse.

And Amy looked at us and she started a smile. Well, about two weeks later, we were fighting. Amy walked in and she said, Mommy and Daddy rehearsed, no, mommy daddy fight. Get out of here. It gets to be a little complicated sometimes. I hated you before I met you. I hated you before you were born.

To me, that's like one of the things that I think about is just how that became sort of like, yeah, that's the laugh, that's the funny joke. But what is the reality of that story, though? We don't know, Ben. That's why we're so messed up. That's why we're doing this documentary. That's why we're going to figure it out. So those last two voices were Ben Stiller and his sister, Amy. Ben Stiller, welcome back to fresh air. This is a really probing, emotionally deep.

movie. I really, really liked it. So the clip that we open with is your sister not being able to tell sometimes what was a real fight and what was a rehearsal for a sketch. Did you experience anything like that? Yeah, nice to be with you, Terry. Yeah. In this apartment that we lived in, they had a living room. We called it the big living room. It wasn't that big, but that they would uses their office when we were younger and then I think like when I was like 13 or 14 they got an office on 57th street but most of the time they'd been in this office in the apartment working so we would just hear them you know doing their thing in there and sometimes their voices would be raised yeah sometimes there were arguments that happened and it was kind of just like part of our lives it was

like yeah mom and dad are doing their thing in there and um as a kid I don't think you question these things It's just like what your parents do. So a lot of people know your father, Jerry Stiller, from Seinfeld, playing George's father, Frank Costanza. But they don't necessarily know Stiller and Mira routines. So I want to play one of their better known ones that I think is really funny. And this goes back to the really early days of computer dating. And I think at this point,

you didn't have your own computer. This is the period where you'd send in your information and they'd put it through a computer at the company and then send you back a match. Is that, am I right in thinking that? I think so. I don't know how it worked, but it definitely was pre-personal computers.

Yeah, yeah. 60s. Yeah, okay. But I think the idea of a computer being able to match people up, that was the new thing that was happening. So this borrows from your parents. actual marriage because your father is Jewish, your mother was Irish and Catholic, although she later converted to Judaism. So in this sketch, the computer dating service has set them up

together. And your father's name in the sketch is Hershey Horowitz, and your mother's name in the sketch is Mary Elizabeth Doyle. Where you're from? Me? I'm from Flatbush. Oh, really? That's where I'm You're kidding. East 42nd Street. I live on East 42nd Street. Oh, that's amazing. That's my blog. Really?

Hey, this computer really works. Yeah. See, that's fun. Hey, you know Richie Flanagan? You're a tall, skinny kid. No. Uh, do you know Morris Goldstein? Goldstein?

No, I don't know him. You know Mary Ellen Moriarty? Mary Ellen Moriarty, no. Do you know Moisbeater? No, Moishth. No. No, no. I would remember.

Do you know Elliot Blumenfeld? No, I don't know. You know, Danny McQueen. No. Timothy Shehee. No. No. No.

No. No. No. Mike Schoenfeld? Grace Mary McGinnity. Raymond Kish? No. Cahall?

No. Junior Hall? No. No. You don't know the Halls? No. No. You know the Lepsen Brothers?

No, I don't know that. Adi and Jerry? You know the Monaghan twins? Morin and Moira? No. That's a pretty big block that these 40s. Yes. those were all my mother's cousins she was naming oh no really that's so funny yeah yeah you know it's

interesting i don't know if the listeners heard this but my headphones i could hear you laughing during the sketch yeah and you must have heard it like hundreds of times um but it's the timing is so good and it's so funny yeah it was fun i mean it's just something about you know just the concept of the sketch that they're from such different worlds and those names are so specific. It just makes me laugh and yeah, it's still funny to me. There were conflicts that existed in your parents' marriage that also existed in their working relationship. And your parents had really different approaches to performing and different levels of anxiety. And before I play a clip, that kind of illustrates some of that.

I want you to explain what some of the differences were that would get in the way of both performances and the marriage. Well, I think the core difference was that my dad really wanted to do comedy, and I'm not sure my mom really wanted to. Because she was a dramatic actress before doing comedy. Yeah. She was studying with Uda Hagen. in, you know, H.B. Studios in the Village and a teacher named Alfred Linder, I remember she talked about, and was very committed to, you know, being a dramatic actress. And then my dad had dreamed of being Eddie Cantor and, you know, being a stand-up. And, you know, both of them grew up during the Depression. And I think for my dad, that was his beacon. His way out were these comedians. And he had this drive that I'm amazed at what he had to do to get out of that lower.

side tenement and realize, you know, his goal of doing this, which he did. And when he met my mom, I think he, you know, fell in love with her. And creatively, he was just so connected to her and he saw her brilliance and how good she was at acting. And also he knew she was funny. Maybe it was just, you know, in them interacting with each other. And he drew her into doing this comedy act. They'd been living together for seven or eight years. married and were starving actors and he had this idea to take their situation and turn it into into a you know into these little sketches and that changed their lives but my mother really never had that dream so in approaching going you know going on stage and and this is the irony I think it's really it's always fascinated me is that my mother was naturally great at live performing and I feel that my father had to work at it more. So that was sort of always the dynamic throughout their whole lives

when they would approach having to perform. The preparation was very different. And he seemed more anxious about performing, even though it was... Well, I think he loved to perform, but he needed to just rehearse and go over it again and again. And I think of myself,

I don't love live performing. I think I'm probably maybe a little more like my dad that way. And my mom was much more, I don't know, she just would kind of go out there and go with it and had just this sort of natural ability to be on stage and let it happen and be comfortable on stage. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor, director, and producer Ben Stiller. His new documentary is about the lives and careers of his late parents, Jerry Stiller and Anne Mera. He's also an executive producer and primary director of the TV series Severance. The documentary and Severance are streaming on Apple TV.

We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. What were some of the fun parts for you of having celebrity parents? And then we'll get to the downside. I mean, there wasn't, honestly, it was a lot of fun. It's so interesting because when you really analyze it to think about what the downside was At the time, there wasn't a downside for us as kids. We were just living in this world where my parents would go out and either they'd go out late and play a nightclub.

I remember when they played nightclubs in New York, and that was really exciting for us. We get to stay up late, hang out with the grown-ups, interesting, funny people coming in and out of the house. You know, they would have these New Year's Eve parties, my parents, at their apartment in the late 70s and the 80s that were just, you know, amazing. And as kids, it was really fun to be around. I loved going on sets when they would go out to L.A. if they'd do a show like Courtship of Eddie's father or to be on, you know, the Paramount Studios lot. And for me, it made me want to, you know, make movies. I, being around that. It was very clear early on. That's what I wanted to do. So it was a lot of fun times and more interesting to my sister and I than school, for sure.

You and your sister Amy were on talk shows with your parents, and once you even played, was this with Mike Douglas, that you played a violin duet of chopsticks with her? Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, it was awful. There's cutaways to your parents laughing as you both play violin and perform. I bet you didn't know at the time that they were laughing. I mean, I look at their faces because basically what they, you know, they were co-hosting the Mike Douglas show and, What that meant was they would sit there with him as all the other guests came on, and they would do a week of shows in one day down in Philadelphia. And so they would send a limousine. Again, this was very exciting for us as kids.

They sent a limousine up to New York, and we go down with my parents in the limo. They do two shows in the morning. We'd go to a restaurant called Bookbinders for lunch that I remember as a kid where they had lobsters in a tank, and it was all very, you know, really exciting. Then they go do the other shows and go home. And I guess one time they brought us on, you know, because they were just looking for bits to do. And I think when I watch them laughing at it, I see them laughing, but also like inside because we're so not good. But they're like, all right, the audience is enjoying this, but we're kind of like, oh, I want my kids to do good. And also like, why did we put them in this situation?

I feel all of that when I look at their faces. Well, speaking of putting you in that situation, were there times that you were uncomfortable? being on the talk show set and being asked questions by whoever was hosting that particular show because I kind of question whether it's fair to the kids to put them in something that they're too young to understand what it means to be on TV and what the consequences or what the upside might be. Yeah, I mean, I even did it with my daughter and I have that in the movie too where I put her in The Secret Life of Walter Middy when she was eight and then I cut the part out, I don't recommend ever doing that with your kid. But I put her in that situation.

Well, I put her in the movie and then I cut the scene out of the movie because the scene wasn't, you know, right for the movie. But, of course, you know, all my daughter remembers that I cut her out when she was eight years old. But it was the same feeling, though, on the set. You put a kid in that situation as it was happening. I'm like, oh, man, this is so much pressure on her. And then I was feeling the pressure, too. And I'm sure that's what my parents were feeling at the time. But not thinking it through, I think at the time, they were like, yeah, this would be a fun thing to do. And we probably said to them, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to do it. We want to do it. You know, not thinking of what the implications could be in terms of, you know, psychological trauma years later.

What were the consequences? I mean, I don't feel like I was traumatized from that experience. But I remember other little things. I mean, when you're a kid, things like that obviously affect you on a deep level. You just, you know, it's how you process it. later and sometimes you don't realize. I remember just thinking about being on a game show set, I remember when my parents were doing the $10,000 pyramid once, and they had this area on the set called the Winner's Circle, where you go for the final round. And they had two chairs where the contestant and the star would sit opposite each other,

and there were microphones set up. And I remember at lunchtime, I went down to the winner's circle and sat in the chair, and I touched the microphone, and the microphone moved. And then a stage manager or someone yelled at me and said, hey, hey, don't move that. That microphone was set for, you know, whichever actor was there. And that, I remember my whole life as being traumatized by that. So, like, things like that when you're a kid in a grown-up situation can really affect you.

You think that your mother was not always comfortable with being a mother that she found it kind of stressful. And you think that's in part because she lost her mother when she was 10, you know, during her. part of her formative years she didn't have a mother who she could later model herself on or decide I'm not going to do it that way. I'm going to do it my way. Did you sense that discomfort when you were a child? Yeah. And she talked about it a lot when she was older. Yeah, that she lost her mom when she was about 10. She was an only child. This was in 1941, I think. And, And she, you know, I think it was a really lonely, tough childhood for her. Her dad loved her and did as much as he could for her. But I think when she finally had kids, she was daunted by how to be a mom. And then, of course, having to then balance that with the performing. She wanted to have kids.

But then, you know, when she also had to do all of this high pressure live performing, when the kids were at such a young age, I can imagine that was a really, really hard thing for her. And I sensed it, you know, subconsciously, I think, as a kid. Of course, you just absorb everything, you know, from your parents when you're a kid and, you know, when you're around them. So stuff that you are aware of, stuff you're not aware of. And I felt it.

I felt the tension with her and my dad when they would be, you know, getting ready to perform. And, you know, I talk about the drinking in the movie, you know, that was something that, you know, wasn't discussed in our house. And I think it was because my dad didn't really know how to how to deal with that. And he was trying the best he could to figure out how to manage this relationship and this, you know, this marriage and this working relationship that was their livelihood. So we sensed it, but it was, you know, stuff that I kind of processed later in life. So you really enjoyed going to clubs where your parents were performing or to the Ed Sullivan show. But also, although you loved hanging out with your parents and the other stars, one of the tough parts of having parents in a comedy duo was that they were gone a lot.

They toured a lot. You're on the Ed Sullivan show, you know, over 30 times and you're going to get booked all over the country. So they became pretty famous. I remember seeing them on it, Sullivan. So you were without your parents a good deal of the time. And the person who was with you was your nanny, who partly raised you. So what was your life like when they were gone? How did that absence affect you?

Yeah. So Hazel, Hugh, was our nanny. Hazel took care of us and was, you know, basically since I think the time that I was probably about four years old and she was from Jamaica and she had seven kids of her own and they lived in Brooklyn and we became very close with her family with her kids because they were, you know, some of them were Amy and my age and my parents would go away for like a two week stint to L.A. to L.A. to, to do whichever show, game show, or Love Boat or whatever it was. And, you know, Hazel was, you know, she was so sweet. She knew she had to be the disciplinarian and keep us in line. But we would also kind of have our own secret world going on. My sister and I, and it was kind of like a free-for-all a little bit when we were on our own.

You know, we'd stay up late sometimes to try to sneak out. And as we got older and became teenagers, you know, then there were other things going. on. Like, my sister started going to Studio 54 when she was, I think she was, like, 17. And I should, I guess I can talk about this, Terry, now. I was 13. And she would take me to Studio 54 with her friends and we'd sneak us in. How did you get into Studio 54? Well, you know what, Studio 54? Like, the whole thing was outside, you know, there's like people waiting to get in, right? The bouncers have to choose. you. Yeah, part of it depending on how attractive you were. Exactly. And how they were curating the night, right? And this guy, Mark, was the main bouncer. Somehow, Amy, my sister and her friend Vicky, they had gotten in with him. And, you know, it's a question. Amy and I've talked about

whether or not he knew that our parents were, you know, still or a mirror. Maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. But he would pick them to go in. And one night, Amy said, said to me, Amy and Vicki said, like, we're going to dress you up and we're going to take you to Studio 54. We're going to get you in. This is when my parents were out of town. And they put me in a yellow and green polka-dotted Fiorucci shirt. Fiorucci was the store at the time that was like the cool fashion store and an army jacket and these Mickey Mouse sunglasses. And we went up and Mark saw us and he like pointed to us and like, you know, said, come on in. And we were in. And it happened a few times. So I think I was 13. Well, one of the things Studio 54 was famous for was people doing a lot of Coke. What did you see that you probably shouldn't have been exposed to? I mean, I don't remember seeing people like doing stuff like that in the bathrooms or like, you know, but I remember being in the upper, the balcony and seeing there are like people making out.

And the average white band, I remember talking to the average white band. there. And for people don't know the band that's the name of the band The average white band was a band You're not calling

a band of white people average Yeah But I mean I remember dancing too And being really into dancing there And yeah It was a little bit

You know Look it was definitely You know Kind of like Farrell kids out on our own You know Did your parents ever find out

Some of the things You did when they were gone? Yeah they did I talked about this on a talk show once too. I took LSD when my parents were out doing the love vote once and I love the comparison between the love vote and you being on a hallucinogenic. Yeah. And I call I was the guy who called his parents on LSD. I called them up in L.A. because I was scared. I was having a bad trip and the only time I ever did LSD. And I talked to, and my mom was really got really mad at me. And my dad was

actually much nicer and kind of tried to help talk me down. And he said, I understand where you're going through. When I was 11 years old, I smoked a pell-mell cigarette and I was sick for two days. And I was like, no, dad, you don't understand. I'm like, I don't understand what reality is. But he was great. He was actually great about it. And tucking you down? Yeah, no. And I was like freaked out a little for a while afterwards. I was scared, you know, from the experience. And my dad was so great he i remember he took me for a drive and and he parked the car and he said like let's just meditate a little bit and like he had closed my eyes and just picture a color i think it was like purple or something he said just like think of it as a soothing color and i don't know if he had been doing

some therapy himself that he had this idea to do this but he was just actually you know really trying to help me kind of you know soothe myself and get get over this event and as opposed to like a a parent who was like, you know, like, never do that again and, you know, you're grounded or whatever. I think it's wonderful that you felt comfortable enough with your father to call him while you were tripping. Yeah, I mean, that's interesting, you know, because that's one of those things you don't think about. It's just like this visceral gut reaction, and that's what I did. And, you know, I guess that does say something about our relationship. But he was always, for me, a very spiritual person and very, I think that's what people connected with him, too, because he had

just like a really open heart. There's a scene in the movie that's a real standout scene. You're talking to your son, who's kind of interviewing you during part of the film so that you can tell stories and be telling them to someone, and not only someone to your own son. And so you're telling him about how weird it was for you when you were having a conversation

with your father and a fan would come up and interrupt the conversation and your father would pay attention to the fan. Right. Yeah, I was talking to my son about how, yeah, growing up with my parents, they would get recognized. And on the street,

my mom usually wouldn't want to talk to people for a long time where she'd say hi, but she wanted to just go on and just keep doing her thing. And my dad would talk to people forever. Like if someone wanted to talk to him, He would, you know, get into conversations about their family, and it would just go on and on. I used to drive my mother crazy. And as kids, we would feel that, you know, when you're little, you feel that your parents' attention being taken away from you.

So I was talking about that with Quinn, my son, and he interrupts me. We'll play what he has to say. Okay, so here's Quinn. Well, that's actually hilarious because just a few weeks ago, we were all out at a restaurant, And I've been stressed about college stuff, and then the people there wanted to get, like, a picture with you. And then I just remember I was so frustrated, like, the world just has to stop to get this picture. You know what I mean? So, Ben Stiller, what was it like when your son told you that?

I was surprised yet not surprised. I was surprised that he actually brought that up in that moment, and that the example he was using was so recent. But it was, and in that moment, I was like, okay, this is actually. probably a really good moment for the movie. But I also, as a person, was feeling like, oh, this is really, gosh. And all I could say in the moment was like, oh, yeah, I guess I have like a lot of my dad and me or more of my dad and me than my mom. And it's just that realization that, and it wasn't a new realization for me, but, you know,

that thing of like you really try to do better than your parents, but it's very hard. to not make some of the same mistakes that they make. Were you even aware that you were doing that? I wasn't aware. No, I was not, you know, what surprised me about what he said was because he's 20, that that had happened like, he said, like, last week. And I thought, well, I thought, well, this is something that happened when he was little, you know. But the fact that he, it actually, like, affected him still at this age, you know,

that actually really did hit me, you know, just as an awareness of like, yeah, this is a reality. that he had to live with. I had to live with my own version of it with my parents. But it's a tough thing. You are a producer, a director, an actor. You just finished a documentary about your parents. So you're dealing with working with other actors, investigating your own family history,

running a production company. How do you deal with all the stress of that? and the responsibility. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's been a busy time. For me, I know the places that I feel comfortable and relaxed and, you know, like the kind of safe haven. And that, to me, has become going home and being able to like turn it off and figure out how to do that finally. I think I've figured that out at least to a certain extent. that I can get home and really enjoy being with my family.

My kids are both out of the house now, but, you know, when they're around, it's great. But with Christine, you know, just hanging out together and watching, you know, real housewives of Beverly Hills with my daughter or, you know, something like that, or, you know, kind of just finding those moments to kind of like unplug, you know, I've found that that really, really helps. And then, you know, the other thing is just enjoying the work and the projects that I'm working on that I'm only working on things

I really care about and I really want to be doing. Well, it's just been a pleasure talking with you. So thank you so much for coming back to our show. It's great to talk with you, Terry. Thank you. Ben Stiller's documentary, Stiller and Mira, Nothing is Lost, is streaming on Apple TV. He's also an executive producer and primary director of the series Severance,

which is also streaming on Apple TV. Coming up, we hear, hear from Cynthia Arrivo. She stars in the new film, Wicked for Good, which is now in theaters. This is Fresh Air Weekend. Our co-host, Tanya Mosley, has the next interview. Here's Tanya. There's a moment in the new movie, Wicked for Good, when Elphaba, the so-called Wicked Witch, stops defending herself to a world that has misunderstood her and simply exists on her own power. My guest today, Cynthia Arrivo, brings that moment to life with a depth that is also personal.

In part two of Wiccett, Erivo captures Elfabah's evolution from outcast to someone who claims her own story. A journey Erivo also explores in her new memoir, simply more. The book traces how she learned to shed other people's definitions of her as a woman, as a black artist,

and as someone who was sometimes told she was too much. Arivo first broke through on Broadway and the color purple, winning a Tony Award for her portrayal of Seeley. She went on to earn an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of Harriet Tubman, and later portrayed Aretha Franklin in Genius Aretha, for which she was nominated for several awards, including an Emmy. Arrivo is also a recording artist, blending gospel, soul, and cinematic pop.

Last year's Wicked, and the new film, Wicked for Good, are adapted from the Tony Award-winning Broadway musical. The new film continues Elphaba and Glinda's story, exploring what happens after their fates diverge and the myth of the wicked witch takes hold. And Cynthia Arrivo, welcome back to fresh air. Hello, thank you very much. You know, there is something extraordinary about watching Wicked and then Wicked for Good and reading your memoir at the same time. There's so many parallels there.

When did it click for you, that your personal life and that connection to Elphaba were so close? I think I had an inkling that there was a connection soon after I started doing the music, singing the music, learning the music. But I think it really actually clicked when I was making the film, when I was playing the character, that I realized, oh, this is a lot closer to home than I had imagined. But I didn't realize that there were so many sort of real parallels, the relationship with her father,

the relationship to being in spaces that don't really include you, All of that sort of dawned on me as it was happening. So the feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate, yeah. Was there a particular moment during that time period where it hit you? You said, wait a minute, this is me. We were shooting, and this is going to sound so strange because it's such a small moment, but we were shooting the scene when Nessa Rose is about to be sent off to school. and their father asks Alphabet to take care of Nessa.

And I remember he speaks to her quite harshly. And the feeling that I got in that moment sort of was a click moment for me. It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one. And that was when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that. What's so interesting about that is that the story of Wicked had been living with you for years. I mean, we're talking over a decade or so. The first time I discovered it was when I was 20 or 21, yeah. Director Jean Chu actually asked you during the audition. What does Elphaba mean to you? And you told him the story of defying gravity, which was a song that you had

learned several years before. Yes. When you were in school. Yes. You write about this in your memoir, simply more. And I want you to read exactly what you say. to John. Can I have you read it? This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school. If I was having a really bad day or was miserably aware of how odd I felt there, an outsider who couldn't connect with the others, I would hide out in a music room with a friend, Michael. We'd sing this together. We'd stay in that little room until the very last minute before we had to go back to class, belting our hearts out. This song gave me refuge, singing it

during a very vulnerable time in my life, these songs made me feel safe. That was also the first time that you shared out loud, how alienating school was for you. Very much so, yeah. What was it about that moment that it came to you to actually be vulnerable and tell? And also, that was a show of the connection

between you and Elphabah as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I felt really safe in that room. I felt like John would understand it. And I also knew that in order to really connect with this character to really help people understand that I knew and understood who this character was, who this person was, that I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience that I felt that this character had been through.

And I felt like this character needed the vulnerability that I, can sometimes be afraid of sharing or being and better at now. But in that moment, I just thought, if I'm not honest about what I feel or have felt or how this music has made me feel, and I think I'm leaving something on the table that is important. That experience that you had at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, that was a very difficult time for you. Maybe one of the most difficult times in your entire career.

Yeah. Yeah, I just felt like people really didn't understand me. And at the same time, whilst not understanding, didn't really make very much room for me either, that it was sort of once a judgment was made, that judgment stayed. I think I was lucky enough to have one or two people during that time who really looked out for me, who cared for me. But it was a tough experience to be there. Because I really didn't, I just didn't think I fit. and lots of strange, interesting microaggressions from people who now are not at the school. But it was an interesting, tough time. What were they telling you about yourself? Or how did you think they perceived you? I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome. I think they thought I didn't care about my work. A lot of people, there was sometimes, well, there's one person in particular who made a,

comment about my body. It was too muscular. I needed to stop going to the gym. And at that point, I just was like, well, I like the body I'm in. And so to have someone who was teaching, who was supposed to be, you know, mentoring me to say that was just, it was just horrifying. You were a young girl. You had grown up in South London. You had to work your way through school. And that was part of the issue was that you, unlike other students, had other jobs. You were working as a background singer. Backguard singer in the bar at a theatre. I was working in a shirt and tie shop as well over the weekend. And so I was like, I was working a lot. And that happened because when I first got there, I was given the opportunity to go and do backing vocals for a band. That would have

paid for my tuition in its entirety. And when I asked if I could take the time off, which was two weeks, I was given an ultimatum, either to stay and let the gig go or leave and take the gig. But I couldn't come back. What an impossible position to be in. And I didn't want to leave, so I stayed. During your time there, you were given these bit roles. But there's this moment that you write about where you were asked to sing for another singer who had, laryngitis. But you weren't asked to be on stage. No, I was backstage. Backstage. And then they

would lip sync you. Yes. And you did it. Yeah. It's one of those moments that I, um, I've started to learn to forgive myself for because I felt so, previously I felt so mad at myself. So I guess there's a part of me that's a little bit ashamed that I would sort of give up my voice in that way. But it's also why I'm vehemently protective of the way I use my voice. I do not say yes to everything at all. It takes a lot for me. It has to mean something for me to sing and has to make sense. I will never give my voice to someone like that again

because it felt like someone removing a gift that was meant for me and giving it to someone else. And it just felt in the moment really awful. And I remember feeling really wrong. It felt wrong. I want to play a clip from the latest installment of Wicked because we learned that the Wonderful Wizard of Oz is a fraud. But in this film, you're standing up to Oz who is oppressing the animals.

And I want to play this clip to illustrate this. It's you as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Glinda, and The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, played by Jeff Goldblum. And he's telling you why efforts are meaningless. Right. Let's listen. Elphaba, uh, I've missed you. Can't we start again? Yes, please.

Just say yes. No. Don't you think I wish I could? I would give anything to go back to a time when I... When I actually believe that you are wonderful. A wonderful wizard of Oz. No one believed in you more than I did. But there's no going back.

And we can't move forward, not until everyone knows what I know. And once they know the truth... They're not going to believe it. How can you say that? No, no, I'm just being straight with you. I could tell them that I've been lying to him till I'm... Forgive me, blue in the face, but wouldn't make any difference. They're never going to stop believing in me.

You know why? Because they don't want to. That's my guest today, Cynthia Arrivo, and seen with Jeff Goldblum and Ariana Grande and Wicked for Good. You all shot this back-to-back, Wicked and Wicked for Good, right? Not back-to-back at the same time. At the same time. Simultaneously, yeah.

Did you have to hold anything back emotionally as you were moving through these two different storylines that one kind of, evolves from the other. Yeah, it was really interesting because sometimes, I think we had shot quite a bit of the first movie, but not nearly enough to say we'd almost finished. No way. We were nowhere near. And then we were sort of all the way into the second. And we were sort of tandeming between the two movies. So there were days where, luckily, you would sort of know where the character was at this point. And you'd have some sort of hindsight. for where they had come from

and what they had been through in order to move into the second movie. But there were sometimes where you're sort of guessing, really, because you hadn't shot a certain scene, you're just sort of assuming that the scene is going to feel this way. How did you navigate that? Did you just surrender to the idea?

Yeah, you have to. And also, I think both of us actually, Ari and I, both of us sort of made really specific decisions about how we looked, what we walked in, the clothes we were wearing, so that even the scents that we were wearing, because I always find a scent for each character that I play. What do you mean by scent? Of perfume.

I always find a scent for each person. But this time I found a scent for each alphabet. So Elphabur, who was young, wore a very different scent to Elphabur, who is older. And so sense memory was a lot to do with how to sort of click back into where we are in time. Oh, this is so interesting. Can you slow down for a moment? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First off, how did you come to that idea and what sense did you choose?

I started doing this a long, years and years ago. The first time I did it, I think I did it with Harriet. And hers was like cedarwood and lavender, I think it was. But like essence with a base oil, not a perfume, because I wanted it to feel like something she could find that she could, you know, discover, make. I wanted it to feel like it was off the earth. And then I realized how powerful it was for me. And so I kept doing it with my characters. So with Elphabah, I knew that they had to feel different.

So Elphabah, who's younger, I sort of messed around with like big florals, like really deep florals, so tuberose, rose, rose, lilies. And then I mixed it. with like a tobacco oud. And sometimes I find a scent and it's not right and I go back and I go, and it's a real, something will say, this is the one. Oh, this is so fascinating.

So Elfabah for good, what was her scent? Hers, you'll never believe me. But it was a scent called witchy-woo. Oh. Which when I found it, I thought, there's no way this is going to work. It will be way too on the nose. Where did you find it?

I was staying at Soho Farmhouse in the UK and they have this little sort of gift shop. And in the back they have a few perfumes and I saw this scent. It said, which you woo. And I thought, I'm not going to like this. I'm not going to like it. It's too on the nose.

There's no way. So I sprayed some on my hand. immediately I wasn't convinced. But you know how perfume changes. Your body, your scent, your own natural oils change the scent. So I go away and I keep going back to it. My body is like, no, this is a really good scent. There was a reason it was there for you. Go back for it. So I go back for this scent. So I'm wearing witchyoo and I'm wearing, and this time like a grown oud. And this helped you keep your mind around the different emotional notes between the two movies. Yeah. Do you think that has something to do with, because you have synesthesia, which

means you can see color when you sing, the music. Yeah, music. Do you feel like this might be connected? I'm sure. I think my senses are heightened. So I know I have a heightened sense of smell and obviously with music there's a heightened sense there. So I think, I think maybe, but I've never thought of it that way. I've always thought of it as just another access point to each of the characters. It's just sort of the character's way of telling me another bit about who they are, you know, what calls to them, what is part of their DNA. And that is another thing that I think just I've sort of discovered along the way. Because it isn't the same ever. I've never worn the same thing for any character. There's some pretty intense training that goes into the

this role, both physical, emotional. I mean, when you were even training to audition, is it true that you would try to sing while you were swimming? Yes, I would sing, so I'd do laps and sing, and then I'd run, and then I would sing. I just wanted it to be in my body. You know, it's the idea that if I'm doing something that's strenuous and I can sing it whilst I'm doing the thing that's strenuous, when I'm standing still, it'll just be there. I won't actually have to work that hard for it to be there.

You know, the defying gravity riff, it's now just become a cultural phenomenon. There's that moment where Kiki Palmer is at the end of ACP awards and she just starts singing it, you know. What's it like to have your voice become a reference? You know, it's part of the cultural language now. I'm one deeply flattered and it's kind of wonderful because many women have, have had their riff and they've done it before and of course you have the original by Edina Menzel

but it's just lovely to be part of the lexicon of that now. It's lovely. What colors do you see when you sing defying gravity? Blues strangely. Different blue, like iridescent blues.

Yeah. Cynthia Revo, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. You too. This was wonderful. Cynthia Arrivo stars in the new film, Wicked for Good, which is now in theaters. Her memoir is called Simply Moore. She spoke with our co-host, Tanya Mosley. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. I'm Terry Gross.